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Hear from Lewis and Karim, both ex-students of Calderstones School, Liverpool; both study / studied PPE at New College; both Evertonians. Recorded in June 2022.
Produced by New College, Oxford, 72 Weeks details how life can change, and indeed has changed, for people over the course of an Oxford University degree. Each episode focuses on a different theme, with guests having some form of commonality.
Daniel: Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of 72 Weeks. My name is Daniel and I�m the Head of Outreach and Communications here at New College, which is part of the University of Oxford. Now, this Podcast is called 72 Weeks as that�s the average length of an Undergraduate degree course at Oxford. And, each episode, I�ll be talking to two people about how life can change, and indeed has changed, during that relatively short period of time. Each episode, the people interviewed will have a common thread, or indeed threads, that they share with the other person and this week I�m delighted to be joined by current New College Undergraduate, Lewis, and New College graduate, Karim. And my two guests have several commonalities. Both studied, and did study, PPE at New College, both hail from Liverpool, and both attended the same school, Calderstones, and both are Evertonians. What do both of you think the future holds for Everton? What needs to happen this Summer?
Lewis: I�ll let you answer that first, Karim.
Karim: Haha, it can�t possibly be worse next season. Um, I think the age of the squad needs radical rehaul. I think we spent a lot of money on older players that we need to get rid of, um, and trust youth but I think that�s what Frank Lampard has been his big selling point so we�ll see.
Lewis: I think Lampard is actually a very good manager for us cos I think, the thing about him, is that he gets Everton. Uh, we�ve got a new Director of Football. So I�m confident we won�t be in that position ever again. And I don�t think I could do it again, to be fair because throughout last term and the early weeks of this term, I couldn�t work from morning on a Saturday when we were playing because I was like �Everton are playing later, oh, how�s it going to go? Do you know? It wasn�t conducive to good work schedule.
Daniel: And when you say, Lampard gets Everton. What do you mean by that?
Lewis: What I mean by that is, like, and Karim I think you�ll probably know what I�m talking about. Everton are a strange bunch of fans, our fans like. They will celebrate a throw-in, or like you know, a tackle or something like that just as much as a goal. And, the thing with us is, you know, we don�t all the time want to be the best, we just want to see that they�re playing for the badge. Frank, he, uh, you know, when we scored our equaliser and our winner against Palace, you could see how happy it made him. So, and he even broke his hand celebrating one of our wins earlier in the season so, you know, he�s willing to suffer for us.
Karim: There is something about Everton fans being perpetually, I guess, patronised and overlooked which makes us, I guess, harder to understand if you�re coming from outside the city, and from outside the Everton family. Um, so I think it is good that we�ve got a manager who says all the right things and gets the club but, um, I also think there are times when, huh, you wish for a bit more tactical nous as well. Um, so we�ll see.
Daniel: Liverpool, I think, is a special city. You know, as someone who�s not from Liverpool, obviously, it has got an atmosphere, um, that is quite unique I feel. So, Lewis, what was it like growing up in Liverpool? What were your school days like? What was your community like?
Lewis: Yeah, so uh, I think you�re absolutely right. It�s got its own special character and, you know, we�re not the biggest city in the UK but we�re certainly one of the most well-known. And I think that�s testament, you know, to the people of Liverpool and I grew up in South Liverpool, by Allerton Road. I loved it, to be fair, I can�t say anything other than that really about, like, growing up in Liverpool. I grew up two minutes from Penny Lane, and, uh, John Lennon did indeed go to both of my schools so you�ve got The Beatles connection there, you know, you�ve got the culture, the football. Uh, so it�s a brilliant place and when I�m here, I miss it a lot. And then I get back, see all the sights, and then I�m like �right, I�ve had my fix of Liverpool. I�m ready to do another eight weeks in Oxford�.
Daniel: And you do bear, quite a resemblance, to a young John Lennon, I think.
Lewis: Well, I�ve been told this. You mentioned this to me the other week and ever since then I�ve been canvassing opinion on that. I ask people, �I�ve been told I look like John Lennon� and I do have an Auntie who is convinced that I�m the spitting image of him. To be fair, I played him in the school play in Year 2 so I must have been picked for the resemblance because at that age, I wasn�t picked for my talent! Haha!
Daniel: And Karim, what about you? Because you would have grown up in Liverpool at a very different period of time. Um, what were your memories of growing up?
Karim: The thing about Liverpool is, it�s always been a really really diverse place. It�s a port, so you know, it�s got the oldest Chinese community in Britain, outside of London. There were a lot of Chinese kids in my year. Um, there are people from all over the world. Lots of different languages spoken. My Mum taught in one of the other schools, up the road, where, um, I think something like 40% of the kids didn�t have English as a first language but because Liverpool is an incredibly welcoming place, and incredibly diverse place, it always felt like you were free to be different. Um, and you were free to sort of stand out, um, and to do your own thing. You know, it is a kind of free-thinking and diverse and enthusiastic place. Um, but also somewhere that, you know, certainly when I was born in 1980 and going forwards, had a really tough, tough time, um throughout the 80s and had been having a tough time for a while by that point. So what was really gratifying over the last maybe twenty years is just seeing Liverpool become much more of a place that people aspire to go to, and live in, which it just wasn�t 30 years ago.
Lewis: Yeah, it�s definitely on the up. I mean, we had the new shopping centre built, Liverpool One, you�ve probably seen that when you visited. But, it�s things like, we were Capital of Culture in 2008 and ever since then, really, we�re kind of on an upward trajectory. It�s a place now that I�m happy that it�s not somewhere that I�ve completely written off, you know, after Uni. I�d like, I�d consider going back to Liverpool whereas I think, it�s sad to say, but in the past, I�d have probably been like �no way. I�m going to have to go, probably to London or somewhere like that�. That�s what I like about it at the moment.
Daniel: And you both mentioned there that you went to the same school, Calderstones. Um, Lewis, what were you like in secondary school?
Lewis: Um, so, yeah, that�s a good question. I was probably quite nerdy, looking back like. People probably remember me as quite a studious guy. But I like to think, like, I was never, um, never too in the books to not have a laugh. So, yeah, I was very small. I was like, I didn�t grow until I was about fifteen so I was always known, like, as the little kid with the glasses who had the high-pitched Scouse voice. Um, so yeah. But I loved school, like, and it was obviously really enjoyed my school days. Um, I stayed there for sixth form. I could have left, to be fair, but I decided, �no, I love it here so why would I leave?� Um, so yeah. And, I�m proud actually. I never ended up in detention once. So I was well behaved.
Daniel: Oh, good lad.
Lewis: I mean, I had my name on the board a few times but I always seemed to charm my way out of detentions. So, huh!
Daniel: And Karim, what about you?
Karim: Well, it�s funny you mention getting your name on the board. I remember when they brought in the system of writing your name on the board. They said we�re going to change the way we�re doing discipline and all this, and they explained it to us, and you know, name on the board, and one tick meant five minutes detention, and the second tick meant half an hour. I remember them bringing all that in. I mean, I was uh, I was a bit more, I was more of a sort-of outgoing type at school. I did all the school plays, I was in a band. We did three gigs, we were terrible.
Daniel: What was your band called?
Karim: I was hoping you wouldn�t ask that! (Laughter). We were called The Bass Turds, um, and one of the reasons the band broke up was we couldn�t agree if it was all one word or two words. Um, and the, but one of our first gigs was in the school hall, um, for a Battle of the Bands. But I always felt that I hadn�t, uh, that I�d coasted through school. But, when I look back, actually partly due to my Mum being obsessive, and a teacher herself so she couldn�t exactly be at home, um, I didn�t miss a day of school and wasn�t late for the whole of, sort of, the first Year 7 to Year 11. Um, and I�ve got a certificate somewhere for that. So I can�t have been that bad, I can�t have been coasting that much if I was there all the time. At least I was always doing something. So, yeah.
Lewis: To be fair, I lived way closer than Karim, um having spoken to him about where he lived. I only lived five minutes from school, but I was like perennially late, especially in sixth form. I�d walk in, every morning, and get the knowing look from my teachers. What time do you call this? But, somehow, I�d get away with it.
Karim: Yeah, the less said about punctuality in the sixth form, the better, I suppose.
Lewis: Yeah!
Daniel: Has your getting up in the morning routine improved now that you�re a student?
Lewis: Well, I think you might know the answer to this after I�ve told a few people on my Step Up tours. But, um, it certainly has not really. I�m much more of a night-time worker, you�ll find me in the library at 2.00am, uh, but that�s just the way I�ve like, it�s always worked for me. I think it comes back to lockdown when, like, we were there and obviously I�ve got a little brother, he�s twelve now, uh, you know in lockdown, I�d have work to do but I�d see him playing football in the garden and I�d be like �well, I can�t leave him go to play on his own, do you know what I mean?� So I�d go out and play with him or do x y or z, and then I�d get to about ten o�clock at night and I�ve actually got work now, now that the house is quiet and everyone�s asleep. So then I just started working late, and just carried that through really. And yeah, I don�t like to, I feel like I get a lot of FOMO in the day. I don�t like missing out on the idea that, like, there�s a shop or there�s an activity going on I can�t visit or do, so I like to, in the daytime do that stuff. Get up, sleep in a bit til half-ten, eleven, it�s nice.
Daniel: Karim just raised his eyebrows there.
Karim: Those were the days. They�re long gone for me with two kids. God knows how I would have fared these days with all the kind of distractions that people have got with smartphones and, you know, internet access and all that kind of stuff which was not, uh, wasn�t as robust back in the day. We didn�t have as much stuff to distract us with so, um, yeah I actually don�t envy people trying to focus on work now as students these days.
Daniel: And, at what point did the both of you think, I�m going to apply to Oxford University? Because, you know, the North West of England is an under-represented region in this University. So, what made you think, I�m going to go for this?
Lewis: Yeah, so, you�re absolutely right. It is very under-represented. Um, and I think, you know that�s a big issue that needs to be addressed. And the thing what probably got me to apply was having been on the Step-Up tour, you know, I remember you coming to my school in Year 11, Dan. And, um, you know, I�d been selected. Teachers were like �you�ve been selected for this programme�. Uh, there was twenty of us on it. And I was like, �oh this is cool, what�s this?� Found out a bit more about it, found out I got a free trip to Oxford involved, and a few days off school. So, I was like, this is lovely stuff. And obviously I hadn�t heard much at all about Oxford. So, it was probably when we visited Oxford and I saw it and I looked around, wow, this is very very nice. But, I must say, there�s one anecdote where I always bring back up when I�m talking about what made me, like, at that moment, I thought I�ll apply here. And it was when I came here, there was a girl and she had a very strong Geordie accent. And I�d thought, one of my preconceptions of it, was like �oh, if you have an accent, there�s no way you fit in here, you know, you�ve got to have one of these posh, RP accents from the South East. And, um, so it was when she was taking us around and she was talking with this broad accent, I was like �oh hang on a minute, like, you know, maybe it can work having an accent and coming to Oxford�. So that was the point at which I was like, yeah, I�m just going to do it. And yeah, so I loved that trip. That was three and a bit years ago now. And I always love thinking back and thinking you had no idea that you would apply, and you would get in, and you�d have such a brilliant time here. So, it�s a fond memory of mine.
Daniel: Karim, what about you? When did Oxford first come into your radar?
Karim: Um, so, we were really lucky in my year at school. And I think a few years either side of that as well. There was a Head of Sixth form at the time, uh, Mr McDonaugh, who I think has retired relatively recently. And he was really passionate about getting kids from our school to be as ambitious as possible with their University applications and to push themselves, uh, stretch themselves. Um, so he took a minibus, he drove a minibus down in his own time, uh, down to an Open Day. I think it was at Balliol College. Uh, and it was, you know we stayed overnight, uh, maybe even more than one night. Um, we had, uh, a day of looking around the College, meeting some of the tutors, talking about some of the subjects that they taught and so on. Uh, and there was, unusually that year, a bit of a critical mass of us. Um, and I think that really helped because it just raised our, um, sense of, uh, maybe a bit of competitiveness but more importantly just made it feel real, and made it feel like people you knew were going. And kind of, you felt, well some of us will get in because enough of us are applying. And that you said, well actually, if someone in this group can get in, I can get in, because these are my peers in my school, and I can do as well as them. So, it was a really, you know, I was very lucky. Um, as it happened, I didn�t actually get in that year. Um, I um, it�s a long story but one thing we didn�t know was how to do the applications particularly well and how to go through the interviews and all of that. And I just felt I hadn�t really given a good account of myself, um, and so uh, when I got all the grades, by complete chance I was offered a job for a year, I just thought you know what I�m going to give it another go. Um, and so I applied again the following year whilst I was on my year working in a school in France. And chose New College because by that point I�d figured out there was this thing called the internet, where you could look at the different tutors and look at what they taught, and look at what they did. And, a, that would help you with the interview because you�d know what to expect, you�d know who you were going to meet, uh, which I had no idea you could do before. Um, and second of all, um, it just looked like they were a really interesting bunch of tutors, teaching interesting stuff so that�s what I, that�s what I made my decision on but as I said, you know, it hadn�t occurred to me the year before when I was applying that you could even do that.
Daniel: And Lewis, obviously you were a part of the Step Up Programme, which was connected to New College but were there any other reasons why you picked New College?
Lewis: Um, so yeah, actually because obviously it helped that I had visited in person. Obviously my year was all online Open Day situation, by the time it came around to actually applying and stuff, but the thing I loved about New College was, like, the sense of, like, even though this is a big College and it�s one of the oldest ones, everyone seems to be very cohesive together. And that�s what I liked. And, I think, the thing like, that epitomises that, almost, is the fact that we have an English motto, which is �Manners Makyth Man�. Most, if not all Colleges I believe, have got a Latin motto and when I heard the story behind why it was an English motto, that affirmed what I had already been thinking. And so the story is that, like, um, it�s supposed to be that anyone can understand it, and anyone can come here, and you know, study. As long as you�re intelligent, and you have these manners, which is not just being polite, but it�s also kind of, a way of, you know, who you are, things like that. So, I fell in love with it after hearing that. I was like, oh, you know, that�s a very sweet approach to education. I think that falls in line with, like, what I and most other people would agree with as well. It�s not about who you are, or where you�ve come from but it�s about uh, you know, just you.
Daniel: Which also ties in with the idea of having an accent. You know, we want everyone to be themselves and accent is part of who you are. Um, now you both study, and studied PPE. So, Philosophy, Politics, and Economics. Why did you both choose that degree course?
Lewis: By the time I came to applying for it, it was a bit of a no-brainer for me. So, I�ve always loved, kind of, current affairs. My parents like to whip up the anecdote that I was reading the paper since I was seven years old and stuff. Maybe it wasn�t that young but I was doing the crossword and stuff like that. I was also doing this, kind of, keeping up with what�s going on. And, um, but it was mainly after, after, doing my GCSEs, I realised that I liked, kind of, business. So I did Business with Mr Jenkins, and then he was like �oh, you should do Economics A level, I think you�d really like it�, and I looked at what is Economics. I was fifteen, I didn�t know. Um, but then, I realised yeah, this actually sounds like what I like, you know, I always watch the news with my Dad, and hear about this stuff. I�d like to know more about it. Uh, obviously very interested in Politics and the history, and things like that.
Daniel: Karim, why did you pick PPE?
Karim: So somebody had mentioned it, I think it was my Dad or something, who�d said cos I was sort of saying �oh, you know, must have been in my teens, I was sort of saying �oh well, you know, everyone�s talking about what they want to go and do at Uni, you know, I just, you know, I hadn�t really found a course. I was always into, same as Lewis, reading the paper, and you know, current affairs and all that kind of stuff. I could go and do Politics but that�s a bit, you know, do you really study Politics on its own, or I could go and do, um, you know, Economics but I�m not very good at Maths on its own, which, you know, uh, it�s a long story but, uh, I regret now not pursuing that. But the um, he sort of said �oh there�s this degree PPE that a lot of people, sort of, who went into sort of the Political world, have done or have gone into journalism, or have gone into whatever have done, and you know, he didn�t study in the UK so he didn�t know much about it but um, he sort of said I�d heard of this thing so I sort of started looking into it, um, and it did just sort of really chime that, you know, without closing any doors, it opened a lot of doors in terms of what you could go and do. Um, and actually if I think back to the people that I studied with, PPE, there�s one guy here who�s an academic who specialises in Political Philosophy, there�s a guy who�s working on, um, sort of, basically the technology for the NHS in a particular part of the UK, there�s a guy who�s a Senior Civil Servant in the Home Office, someone�s gone into Politics, someone�s you know, if you think about all the different things, some people are kind of trained economists, and all that kind of stuff. There�s just people doing all sorts of different things. And there is a common thread in there of, um, in a sense, public service of some kind or public, you know, public debate around particular issues, or delivery of services or whatever it might be. But, there is a common thread there but it�s so, it opens so many different doors that you can really pursue and you build the degree yourself as you go, and it�s the closest I think that you get to some of those, sort of, liberal artsy colleges where you, you know, you don�t study anything in particular, you build your own, sort of, personalised degree. Um, and that�s the thing that I think PPE allows you to do. It allows you to, you know, you do your first year and everyone does the same, roughly, but then in the second and third year, you can really, kind of, build who you are, um, and who you want to be, um, by focusing on a different aspect of whether it�s Economics, Philosophy, or Politics.
Lewis: Yeah, I think it�s got this, it�s got a bit of a reputation. It�s one of the few degrees, PPE like, its reputation proceeds it almost. And it does have this perception, people do have the perception that it�s, you know, a bit of a pipeline. Private School, PPE, Westminster, but as Karim said, you know, you just heard there, there�s so many things you can do with it and that�s what I�m excited about to explore. I�ve just chosen my options for, like, second year and I�m getting rid of Philosophy, I�m sorry to say. Um, but that�s only because I love the other two so much not because I particularly hate it.
Karim: I did, um, I did the opposite. Well, no, sorry, I did, initially, I got rid, I said �oh no, Philosophy, you know, I�ll focus on Politics and Economics, I�ll be all practical� and realised that it�s a real problem that I didn�t have A level Maths, like a real, real problem. So, I went on my way back to College, I went and bought a black roll neck sweater, and walked in and said �Oh, I�ve really decided I�ve taken a massive interest in Philosophy, can I switch to Philosophy please?�
Lewis: And the sweater is just a crucial part!
Karim: It was the thing that really, but as I say, you can really choose who you want to be and what kind of degree you want to take, um, and uh, yeah, I, um, think they�ve tightened up slightly on the admissions criteria around the Maths, uh, since the days that I did it.
Daniel: And in terms of making that transition. How did you find moving away from home? You know, it�s a considerable distance, coming from Liverpool down to Oxford.
Lewis: Yeah, so it�s about, you know, three-four hours drive for one. So, it�s far away. You can call yourself a Southerner for the first time in your life, for two. Whether or not the people back home like that. Um, but as I say, it�s definitely, it�s an adjustment that I, you know, hadn�t really stayed away from home for that long. All of a sudden, everything is on you, laundry! We�re lucky though that at Oxford, we have, there�s a lot of support systems in place. So, obviously the big one is the food system. So, you can get your food every night in the College Hall. Uh, they also have Scouts who, lovely people who come in and clean your room once a week. Uh.
Daniel: Should explain what a Scout is there.
Lewis: Yeah!
Karim: It�s not the actual Scouts, that would be a bit harsh on them if the local kids, Scouts came in and get the �clean a student bedroom� badge.
Lewis: I know, that�d be a strange badge to get! Um, but.
Daniel: So, what is a scout Lewis? Explain what.
Lewis: So a scout is basically, someone employed by College to come in and keep your room, your communal living areas, and stuff, very nice and tidy. So, we have a lovely scout, Ronnie, uh, every staircase or so has their own, like, scout that manages them. You see them around, you�re like, oh hello and all that. It�s just nice, another face, another friendly face around College who isn�t, kind of, a tutor who�s chasing you work that was due in half an hour ago. Uh, but that hasn�t happened too much, I must say, luckily. But, yeah, in terms of, you know, as I say, it�s an adjustment but it�s one that you get on with. I�m looking forward next year, actually, to having a kitchen in our second year accommodation. Uh, so, looking forward to learning to cook this summer, and probably botching it when I get to cooking on my own next year. We�ll see how that moves.
Daniel: It�s not the cooking, it�s the washing up.
Lewis: Haha! That�s the killer!
Karim: I think moving, for me, moving. I�ve not moved back to Liverpool, I�ve been back for a few months at a time whatever, uh, I�d already been away for a year, um, teaching in France. Um, before I started which I think was really helpful. But it was actually, for me because I was teaching in this small town in France and I was living on my own in a bedsit. Um, and, people weren�t really up going out in the week, and at weekends, you know, people had their own sort of family stuff to do and whatever. So I spent, it was quite, a sort of lonely year so when I got to College, it was, like, full-spectrum, kind of, socialising from all directions and actually I found that, that was probably the thing that I found the most hard to juggle. Was just the fact that you are in a place, and I think this is true for students everywhere, you�re in a place with a whole load of new friends that you�ve just met, from all over the country, all over the world in many cases, who are all really, really interesting people who are studying similar things to you, or different things to you, um, and you�re in this place and you�ve got work to do but it�s very flexible, you can do what you want, um, you�ve got lots of opportunities. For some people, it�s you know, the first time you�ve got any money in your pocket even though it�s far from enough, uh, you�ve got, you know, your own budget for yourself, for your food, and for your drink, and for your, you know, travel and all that kind of stuff. Um, and I think that is the, one of the most exciting things about it, and it�s one of the reasons why people really say that moving away for University is really really important, because it is a massive learning experience but there�s no hiding from the fact that it�s a steep, steep learning curve.
Daniel: Lewis, have you met many other students from Merseyside whilst you�re here?
Lewis: So, yeah, actually, I think I may have told you about this. But, what we did was, and I actually really, really, like love it and these are some people that I really value, that I�ve met as part of my Oxford experience because they were one of the first groups that I met. So, after results day, uh, before we actually came to Oxford, me and a lad who�s also from Liverpool who�s at New College, who I got in touch with, with the Freshers WhatsApp chat, which are infamous nowadays. Um, we decided it�d be a good idea for us to try and find some more Scousers so we went searching, we had some connections, I did a bit of asking round. We soon got, concocted, a group of us and it�s been growing ever since. So, happy to report that there�s actually a fair few of us now, there�s more than twenty in the group chat, and that�s just in our year alone which I think is brilliant, because as you say, not many people get in from Liverpool, the North West in general, nevermind specifically Liverpool. Uh, so there�s a lot of us. So we went out a few times in Liverpool before we came to Oxford, and that was one of my favourite memories of Summer because it�s kind of like, these are new people, these are your Oxford people, but if this is just a taste, imagine when you get there, so you kind of, I was very excited to come after having me, uh, the Oxford Scousers as we called ourselves. Unfortunately, there�s not many Everton fans amongst the Oxford Scousers so I know, uh, two Everton fans, or three maybe, but this is actually quite a rogue story. I was sitting at the match one time, and must have been in August, now just before I came. And, I was speaking to people around me. I�ve had the season ticket for six years now so you get to know the people and they were saying, my Dad was saying, oh last few games for Lew, he�s leaving. And, this guy next to me goes �oh where you going?� So I was telling him, Oxford. And the guy sitting directly in front of me, and one seat to the right, spins round like that and he goes �did you just say you�re going to Oxford?� And I was like, yeah, and he was like so am I. But I just thought it was so random that there�s a tiny amount of people in Liverpool, and then, you know, a tiny amount of Liverpool who go to Goodison Park to watch the match, and of those 40 000 people, that I was sitting next to the one guy who was also going to Oxford. But there�s, yeah, there�s more of us than you�d expect and hopefully more to come in the future.
Daniel: And Karim, if we talk more about your student days now. Um, what are your favourite memories of being a student, not just at Oxford, but at New College as well?
Karim: Um, well we were always very proud of the bar. The thing about it was, and this was dangerous in a way, was that you could just, if you�d worked late a particular evening, you could just wander over there and there�d be someone you knew there to go and talk to. Um, and it was that kind of like, in a sense a sort of support network. One of the things that was pretty incredible actually, was the College library, which just having that resource there, which I did not use anywhere near as much as I should have done the first time round. That was, um, it�s just, when you leave and you go on to work, and so on, you kind of look back and think �that�s ridiculous, that we had this sort of resource, there, that we could just, sort of, go and dip into�. Um, and I loved, um, the thing that I found amazing was everybody there is one of the most enthusiastic people from their school for that subject. Um, and so, everybody wanted to talk about it. So you�d go into lectures or tutorials or whatever, and people would be wittering on about a topic as you left. Um, and you know, you�d carry on in the bar, or you�d carry it on in the common room, or you�d carry it on. I think that is something that�s really underestimated, is the learning process is supposed to be together and there�s a reason why you put people in groups for these things. Um, and you meet people who share your interests and share your outlook. And actually, share those interests in common but might be totally different in their views about everything. You know, you might be like, oh thank goodness, you know, we had all the lockdowns otherwise we�d have had Covid out of our ears, and then you�ve got someone there going �oh no, we should never have done that� or whatever, and but they�re all willing and capable of arguing it in a polite and quite well-informed way. And that�s part of the thing about why PPE is so interesting. It�s just that, kind of, everybody�s bringing a different perspective to the table and they�re willing to be, sort of, open minded about it.
Daniel: And in terms of working life, Karim, when did you start to think about potential career paths that you might want to follow?
Karim: Part of what�s great about what�s available here is excellence, and you can�t be excellent at lots and lots of different things. You have to focus a bit and go, actually, this is what I really care about. Um, and so, by, almost by default I started doing more of the student politics rather than the other stuff, um, which might or might not have been, it wasn�t a conscious choice, it was just what I was good at. Um, and that sort of led me into working for the Labour Party initially, and in Politics generally for the course of ten or fifteen years. And I think there was never a moment where I was like yeah, that�s what I want to do. It just became something that became more and more of something I was really interested in or a lot of my friendship group was involved in it, and so on. I would say if I had my time again, I�d be much more mindful about that and actually think what�s going to stretch me, and make me, get me a skill that�s different to that, and maybe I would have done more of the journalism than the politics.
Daniel: And what was your career path? So, after you finished, you mentioned the Labour Party.
Karim: Yeah, so I did two or three years working in, sort of, Youth Politics, so sort of Chair of Labour Students and then being the Youth Officer for the Labour Party and those kind of things. Uh, worked on the 2005 General Election Campaign which was a really fantastic experience, working in the West Midlands, working on senior politician visits. So, organising for Geoff Hoone to go and launch something in Burton, or something like that. Or, you know, Alan Johnson�s going to launch something in Tamworth, or that kind of thing. And Blair and Brown come to town and all that sort of stuff. So, that was fascinating. And then I went, after sort of that, did a bit of, worked my way up through the sort of policy side of things, so did a bit of local government policy work. Uh, ended up working in the Labour Party policy unit on education policy which is how I came into contact with Ed Balls, who, uh, was Secretary of State for Education at the time. Uh, and we, sort of, he saw something in what I was able to contribute and asked me to go and work for him full-time, which I did throughout the opposition years, sort of 2010 to 2015, which was great, really interesting, learnt a huge amount. You know if you�re talking about PPEists, he�s the, uh, kind of, ultimate PPEist, I guess. Uh, and you know, he�s a really interesting, really interesting learning experience working with him. And then, he lost his seat in 2015 and I had to make a decision, do I want to stay in the political world or go and learn something about I guess, quotes, �the real world� and just started applying for jobs in business, really. Um, I ended up working at, first Facebook for five years and uh, then, yeah, been sort of working in tech policy ever since and now working at LinkedIn, you know, looking at the regulatory questions at how do we regulate tech, make it sort of uh deal with the changing way the economy works, changing the way people communicate online, and those kind of quite interesting questions.
Daniel: And Lewis, have you started to think about possible career paths that you might want to follow?
Lewis: My thing is trying as many things as I can while I still can try them, rather than having to dive into them. In terms of, you know, being ready for the, uh, challenge I suppose of finding myself, forging myself a path, I�m trying to prepare myself for it, but I wouldn�t go so far as to say that I want to do this, I want to work here, I�ll just see where life takes me in a way.
Daniel: And, as somebody whose path has led them from Calderstones to New College, you now work on the Step Up Programme as one of our Ambassadors, you meet a lot of school children as a part of that. But, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who perhaps hasn�t thought of applying to Oxford before, what one piece of advice would you give that particular person?
Lewis: So, this is going to sound probably very clich� but my piece of advice is, just do it. You know, just look into it, find out more about it, and then, when it comes to it, you know you get five University choices, it�s one of them. And I�ve had some of the best experiences of my life so far in the last eight months by having just done it, and just bit the bullet, and thought yeah you know what, what can be so bad about applying, just yeah, just go for it.
Daniel: And Karim, as we mentioned at the start, this Podcast is called 72 Weeks because that�s how long an Oxford degree lasts for, PPE included, um, if you could relive those weeks again, what, if anything, would you do differently? And secondly, to finish, what one piece of advice would you give Lewis, right now, as a first year PPE student?
Karim: So, I�ve had twenty years to look back on this and, sort of, I guess. The first thing I would say is, that�s that point about not spreading yourself too thin. Really pick what you�re interested in, and do it. You know, I did everything, a bit of everything, and it was great, and I sort of ran myself ragged. But, actually, I think I would have liked to have spent more time with my tutors, more time with the books, more time in College with the people that were in College. Because the thing is, the student societies, the things that you can get involved with, they�re great, but they are often quite a lot of the same type of people. Whereas in College, it is that diversity of people, you know, people from all kinds of different backgrounds mixing together. Uh, and I was one of those people that was just out there doing University societies and stuff like that, which was great, but I would have probably focused on one or two of those, and really done them well and done more time in College, more time with the tutors. Because the thing is, the one thing you will not replicate when you leave is that ability to spend quality time with some of the foremost experts in their field. I would have found it fascinating to have learned even more from those people, and from my peers in College. Um, and I think that�s, and actually the friends I have from University days, um, some of the closest ones were College friends actually, who I had not, no kind of activities in common with, we just kind of got together as mates, and, um, that was a big part of it. So that�s what I would say.
Daniel: And on that note, can I just say a big thankyou to Lewis Fisher and Karim Palant for joining me this afternoon and having a chat. Thanks very much both.
Lewis: Thanks Dan for hosting us.
Karim: Yeah, it was lovely to pop back