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Tim Kilroy returns to unpack his VVV framework — Vibes, Vision, and Values — and why agencies that sanitize their personality are leaving pipeline on the table. He also shares why decision timelines have doubled and what that means for how agencies need to show up.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey everyone. Today I'm joined by Tim Kilroy, and this is a return visit. Tim is the founder of the WTF agency method and build your agency better. He has founded, scaled and sold multiple agencies across 25 plus years in digital marketing, and now he coaches agency owners full time in his first appearance, we dug into agency offers discounts versus value and the sales process. This time, we're going deeper into something Tim calls vvv vibes, vision and values in a world where every agency website says the same thing, the agencies that win are the ones willing to show who they actually are, not a polished, sanitized version, but the real thing, rough edges included in this episode, we discuss why decision timelines have doubled for agency buyers and what that signals, why sanitizing your personality costs you pipeline you can't even see the difference between values on a website and values that actually activate buyers and more. Lead Gen is the hardest part of running an agency. For most it's unpredictable, it's slow and it's usually expensive. Jia flips that. It's the all in one growth platform that turns your existing relationships and client work into a steady pipeline. GIA automates lead gen follow up and content, and it's all from the work you're already doing. You can check it out and get some free bonuses at get gia.ai/dynamic agency, and now Tim Kilroy, it's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward. Welcome back to the show. I think the last time you were here, we were talking a lot about agency offers. Since then, what's what's changed? Have you seen any specific offers working better?
Tim Kilroy 2:05
What has changed is speed. The speed of decision making has slowed way down. You know, I think the it has basically that the time from hello to contract for most agencies has doubled, and that that is and that's almost offer independent, because the issue is not the quality of the offer or the trust, it is the economic circumstance of most buyers. Additionally, there is the for anybody who actually has an agency already and is considering a different agency, even if you don't love your agency, the devil you know is better than the devil that you don't. And so there's a, there's a there's there's the big feeling of risk. So I think, I think upfront offers work really well, you know, small thing to test, you know, and they should be paid, but it should be understood that, you know, they are a test, you know, it's not a long it's not a guarantee of a of a of a long standing relationship. It is just, it's the it's the first, it's the date before you have the what are we conversation? So it is, so it's serious and real, but it's not committed yet. And I think the there is a real fear of commitment on the part of most marketers these days, simply because things change so quickly, and unless you have a long standing relationship, marketers are not sure that you were going to be able to adapt at the speed that the market is changing. They're pretty sure that they can't, but they know that that's why they're talking to an agency, but they are concerned about making a commitment to to a relatively unknown entity, because even even if you have month to month or even day to day contracts, there is a, there's a a switching cost, there's there, you know, for the, you know, for the for the clients, so they are going to, this is. It's not about contractual terms. It is really about the emotional and reputational hit that they might take internally if they make a bad choice. And so I think in many respects, the cost of making a bad partner choice has never been higher, not in terms of, not in terms of performance, but in terms of of lost opportunity, lost momentum. Or even perhaps, you know, even perhaps, in some respects of these things might be career limiting choices, depending upon how big, big a business you're you are.
Chris DuBois 5:45
So okay, I want to, like, state this back in a different way, because I think this is a fascinating, like conversation. So the speed of decisions have has slowed, while simultaneously the speed of action has increased, right? Like, it's never been easier to get certain execution done. And so ideally, every company is moving very fast, but if they move fast in the wrong direction, they're left behind very like they're in the dust, right? Yes, so they need to ensure they're making the right decision to do that. So now, yeah, the risk is is higher for who they're deciding to partner with, right?
Tim Kilroy 6:22
Because you know, you know if the market is moving at 60 miles an hour and you're moving at 30 miles an hour, you know how but you're heading the same direction, you know how far behind you are. But if the market's moving in one direction at 60 miles an hour and you get an agency that moves you at 37 miles an hour, but one degree off course, you're now, even though you're moving faster, you are now further off course than you were before, right? And and I think that is the that is the conundrum that marketers find themselves in.
Chris DuBois 6:57
So I guess the the challenge for agencies is, how do you reduce that risk in a way that they can, like the buyer actually feels like it's worth taking a shot with you.
Tim Kilroy 7:05
Yeah, and, and, and, I think for a lot of folks, it is a, it's a short, simple, upfront thing that allows you to, that allows you, as an agency, to show your value. And it gives your clients the trust that you are, in fact, flexible and are able to lead, I think, very different if, if you are an agency that's selling the same thing to everybody, you know, if you've got a one size fits all offer, you know, I think I'm not sure that those that, that those agencies, are
Tim Kilroy 7:55
prepared to thrive, with businesses that are prepared to thrive.
Tim Kilroy 8:03
I think those one size fits all agencies are likely they're selling to businesses that are that are in peril and are not going to be able to move as quickly as the market does. So even if you're landing those clients, I suspect that your engagement with them is, is, is has a short expiration date, because if they can't move quickly enough, you can't help them, regardless of how quickly you can move.
Chris DuBois 8:38
Let's talk vibes with this. How to like, yeah, you've been talking a lot about it. How does this fit into
Tim Kilroy 8:45
the picture? So vibes are kind of everything. Because the the only way, if you think about it directly, hiring an agency, is it's
Chris DuBois 8:58
a black box, right?
Tim Kilroy 9:01
You know, everyone says the same things on their website. You know, we're an extension of your team. We're data driven. We're focused on on ROI blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, for the most part, agency websites are pretty and the people that talk about agencies are articulate, and everybody seems to know what they're doing, so everybody's the same, but exposing what it's like to work with you by talking about your day to day, talking about how you think about things, being yourself, being funny or serious or insightful or controversial or whatever those those are. Those are rough edges. By the way, I love your mug is it's
Chris DuBois 9:56
Thank you. Yeah? Everybody watching? Yeah, bye. Every now and then the kids give me something good.
Tim Kilroy 10:05
And I'm, I'm sure that you get more from your children than just good mugs.
Chris DuBois 10:11
Christopher, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm sure I could,
Tim Kilroy 10:14
yeah, like, probably take something up, yeah. But I think, I think the if you think about vibes as rough edges, um,
Tim Kilroy 10:26
like, they're what people catch on to, you know, if you think about your, the your your vibes,
Tim Kilroy 10:34
as you know, you saying, like, like, here are my dangly bits. Here are your dangly bits, if they connect, that's awesome. But the great thing about exposing vibes, and by vibes, I truly mean being yourself, talking about how you think about things, you know, what's challenging, what's not challenging? You know, where you see things going, you know, where have they been? All that sort of stuff, like all the stuff that makes you good at what you do. You can't hide all that stuff on the other side of a contract, because you have to capture the interest and trust in order to get to the contract. So the like the vibes, is so important because it allows those people with whom you were going to connect, to connect, and it's going to allow those people that you aren't going to connect with to ignore you, which is exactly what you want. You want the people you can work with to pay attention, and you want the people who you can't work with to just leave you alone. And this is, this is different than a marketing campaign. It's different than a PR campaign. This is, quite honestly like, this is, this is the, the real definition of being authentic, not the, not the UGC definition of authenticity, but, but really being authentic, you know. So as a here's a good for instance. You like, Oh no, this is, this is good, like, it's, it's, it's super clear what it's like to work with you. You are, you know, you are organized, you are community and team focused, and you are not ever going to over, promise. And so anyway, yeah, and so, I think so. I think so. I think the people who are going to respond to that do, and the people who just want to be told what to do and how to do it. They're, they're not gonna, they're not gonna vibe with you, you know, especially because you're, you know, you got that angry army haircut and, yeah, just trimmed it up. Yeah. I mean, you're looking, you're, you're looking high speed, low drag.
Chris DuBois 13:20
Haven heard that term for in a while.
Tim Kilroy 13:23
That's, that's what we used to say in the Navy, get your haircut, high speed, low drag. So, so I, you know, so I think that's really what it comes down to, is that this idea of vibes allows you to, you know, put out the right bait with, without it being bait, honestly, like it's real, yeah, right. And I think, and I think that is such a powerful that is the most powerful form of marketing, you know, on top of that, like, you know, for, if we're gonna, I'm just gonna, you know, analyze my own vibe. My own vibe is, is a little confrontational. I don't take anything too seriously, and I'm insistent that my clients think, and try before they ask, because I'll be honest, I don't know the right answer. I just know how to find the right answer, and that right answer changes with every client,
Chris DuBois 14:44
right so many variables, you know, yeah, because
Tim Kilroy 14:47
there's stuff you're good at and stuff you're comfortable with, and then there's stuff you're not good at and stuff that you don't understand, but you think you understand, like it's helpful to have someone else look at all of that, but the people who want. To be told exactly what to do.
Tim Kilroy 15:03
They're they're our relationships don't last very long. Or the people who want to be
Tim Kilroy 15:15
coddled don't last very long because, you know, somebody, one of my clients, once told me that working with me is like getting tough love from your funny uncle. And I think that that fits,
Chris DuBois 15:36
because, yeah, I would, I would name you as a having funny uncle energy.
Tim Kilroy 15:41
So, yeah, I have, I have many nieces and nephews, and I, I am, get the bill. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm close to the top of the list. I'd say I think the rich one is really the most popular. But whatever, that's because he, you know, he's getting, he's got an advantage that I don't he's good,
Chris DuBois 15:58
you know, yeah, market will shift. You can't buy your way in forever. So well, he'd been
Tim Kilroy 16:02
doing for a long time. So I think, like, he's got it nailed down, like, so he's got the process. So, like, I accept where I am, it's fine, yeah, all right, and the family pantheon. But I think I, you know, but I think the, like, when it comes right down to it, it's not about your offer or your technique or your result set. Any good relationship between an agency and a client comes down to the prospect or client feeling like you understand them, and they understand you. And if, and if, if you're a black box, or you cannot allow your client enough space and grace to be a little bit vulnerable about what they're good at, what they're not good at, what they're struggling with, then you're like, then you are destined to be a transactional agency. And transactional agencies are, are you know, you're the only way to thrive as a transactional agency is to have client acquisition that exceeds churn by a big enough amount, right? Because, if you're transactional, as soon as the contract is done, Tiktok, Tiktok, Tiktok, the churn is coming, you just have to, you know, you have to race ahead of it.
Chris DuBois 17:33
Yeah. So I want to share a story that supports what you just said. I think this is perfect. The when I was running an agency, we had one client who, they're in an emerging market, and apologies to any podcast guests who've heard this story before. I was get annoyed when I, like, binge listen to episodes of other shows and they keep telling the same story. It's like,
Tim Kilroy 17:52
but you know, if it's a good story, like, yeah,
Chris DuBois 17:56
it's worth it, yeah. But So yeah, their emerging market, we were trying to, like, we generally leaned into, like, SEO as the solution. But even if we had won every single keyword for them, they would have had like, couple 100 people showing up on their site. Yeah, not enough to actually do business. And so we were trying to do other things, figure this out. And it was, like, it was months. It was probably a full quarter at least, of like, no traction. And so I actually went to the client and said, Hey, I'm sorry. Like, we're not the right fit for you. Like, we can't figure this out. I'm not sure what's going on, but you should probably find another agency who can, who can actually help you here. And their response was like, Look, we trust you. Like, if we go start with another agency, they're figuring it out from scratch. I because of how you guys show up. We believe that you're doing everything you can to learn this, and right now, there is no other agency that understands us the way that that you do. And so we they stuck with us, and a couple months later, things just clicked, and it worked, and their business took off. But had we delayed that, right? And they are, they went to a different agency, they would have been restarting, and they may have never hit that point with their business, yeah, and so I was just really into, like vibes paid off in this moment.
Tim Kilroy 19:07
Yeah, I have, I have two clients. One is aka DACA, and the other is digital wave, and they both sport relationships that span over a decade. Cuckoo. Totally cuckoo. I mean, that's an and, and it's not as if the businesses that they've had these decade long relationships with have not had options or opportunities to work with other people. It's not like they are it's not like they are trapped somehow. These are businesses that stay because it's the right place to stay. And I think, and and I think, and for both of these agencies, they are people that. That that create that level of trust, and, and, and they, they just, just, like you said, when they don't know how to do something, they'll say, like, we don't know how to do this, you know, we can figure it out, or we can help you find a resource. And almost invariably, the client says, no, okay, you do it. Go ahead, like we're, like, like we've like we are so invested here, like we cannot imagine running our business without you. And that's extraordinary. You know when, when that lasts for over 10 years? Holy guacamole,
Chris DuBois 20:47
that's just, that's bizarro, yeah, doing something, right?
Tim Kilroy 20:50
Yeah. And I think, I think there's, there's two other pieces that go along with that. You know, you've got to have those vibes in order to get to the relationship. But throughout the course of your relationship, you also have to be sharing your, you know, your vision and your values, and vision isn't, you know, prognosticating the future. I mean, it is a little bit, but it's about being able to express what you think is going to happen next and why, and showing your market and your clients that you have a path to get there, that you know You are far enough ahead of them in this particular arena that that they can trust you as a guide, even if you don't, even if, even if the destination changes, that you are continuing to invest in your growth so that you can help them generate their growth, and that is so crucial, because there is this, there is this baked in, you understand us thing, and also, as you talked about, but there's, there's also the the baked in, like we know what it's like to work with you and everybody hates change. Like, nobody likes change. They can pretend they do. David Goggins pretends he likes change, you know, and challenges and all that sort of stuff. No, he doesn't like his world is very narrow. Like you tell me, I can't do it. I'm going to do it. But if someone were to say to David Goggins, you are so freaking amazing, like, take the day off. Do you think he could do that? No, because he wouldn't know who he is and and so people don't like change because it threatens their their their boundaries, you know, not, not, actually, not their boundaries, threatens their identity. Yeah, and so and so. Vibes get you connected. Vision allows you to mitigate the threat of change. And then the last thing is, is your values. And values is twofold. One is the economic value. Can you prove that what you do is worth more than you get paid to do it? Shockingly, many agencies fail miserably at this, you know, especially, especially the folks who do web dev, or who are doing, you know, CRM and automation stuff or or folks in SEO or CRO it's really, really challenging to be able to show that value, because it's not single variable, it's multi variable calculus, and depending upon where you're standing, those variables have different weights, right? But in order to maintain the relationship and honor the trust that you've created and the the leadership that you've expressed, you've got to show the goods. You know, I'm pretty sure that we'll talk about the army for a second that that Douglas MacArthur would not have been able to to rally the troops if he said, I have the plan, I've got the discipline. You don't have any food. You know, he couldn't deliver the goods. He like, I like, I have the plan, I have the discipline, but I've got nothing for you. I'm not, I'm not sure that he he would be celebrated as a. As a as a true military leader, right? Yeah, you know Simon Sinek book, leaders eat last Do you know that book? Yeah, it's this, like you got to bring the goods. And if you were assuming a a client leadership position, you better have a way to show that you're bringing the goods. Parallel to that. Every interaction you have with the client is an opportunity to show your values and not and not, like the namby pamby corporate values, like we believe in the dignity of humans and blah, blah, you know, all that stuff. Nobody believes any of that. You've got to show your values just just as you expressed in your story. If you're not pulling your weight, you show up and say, Hey, we're not we're not doing the thing that you need. And that showed that you know your agency had such a high integrity value that you were not tempted to say, hey, like, we're we, we are, you know, giving you all these keywords, you know, you're like, This is the like this, we're not, we're not getting the traction we expect, right? And, and so it is. So it's both showing the economic value and your, you know, your emotional values, and and, and, because this is because we live in a weird time. You know, sometimes those values are political. Yep.
Chris DuBois 26:55
I mean, actually, I came up on a sales call recently where the the agency just happens, a majority of their clients are all on one side of the party line, yep. And they're like, are you okay working with us because of this? It's interesting that this would be like, a question asked from the prospect in a sales conversation. But like, yeah, that stuff is is actually happening there,
Tim Kilroy 27:19
and it matters. I have a former client who's actually he's a terrific guy. I really like him, and he is as far right as I am far left, and we have these spirited debates via Instagram DM, because my Instagram is full of, you know, left wing Bernie Sanders, AOC stuff, and he's his, his is full of, like, America stuff, and I, and that's just not my jam these days. But, you know, we're, we are comfortable with the fact that the other, you know, in this particular arena thinks that the person on the other side of the discussion is an idiot. You know, I think we're like he's an idiot. I know he's told me that I'm an idiot too. So I'm comfortable with that, but, you know, and and so he he faces that a lot, and he chooses to mostly work with businesses that share his values, because he doesn't hide them. And the great thing is that for the businesses for whom that is important, they love him like that puts him ahead of so many other people, right? And it Now, conversely, it also puts him behind in certain circumstances, but he doesn't exactly, exactly, so, so, so it's so interesting that you know, that's his vibe, it's also, that's also his values. And so those, those those things are often the same and, and I don't think you should shy away from them, trying to be, trying to be beige or taupe is it's unexciting for everybody, right?
Chris DuBois 29:29
I think it so. It does a couple things too. First, this is a like, a great way to kind of make positioning more accessible, right? Where, like, when we talk positioning, it's like this big, grandiose kind of
Tim Kilroy 29:41
turn quadrants and spots, yes, and then
Chris DuBois 29:45
break it down. It's your vibes, Vision values. Like, ultimately, that is it, because if you have certain set of values, like, it's going to influence your vibes. Yeah, right, your vision is going to be influenced by that as well. And then you're going to show up in a certain way. So now it's not just a message. On your like, the headline on your website, it's like, no people are actually going to see me showing up this way. And so, like, yeah, so it truly is.
Tim Kilroy 30:08
I know an agency owner who was, I don't know that he was necessarily part of, but he participated vociferously in the the blackout day in Minneapolis. You know, you know, he's, he's headquartered in Minneapolis, like that, like, that's that was impacting him. And so he took a stand and and, you know, promoted that truly, like, blacked out his website. And also, you know, blacked out his his LinkedIn for that particular day. And you know, I don't, I haven't followed up with him, so I do not know that it, it generated any new business for him. But I know that it allowed people to see him differently, because before that, he was, you know, in many respects, Yaffa yet, another fucking agency, right? The ones that say we're an extension of your team, you know, right? And, and I know that people paid attention to that because he demanded that they do, right? And that's, and that is positioning, like, you know, positioning, even though I, you know, when we go through jobs to be done, or, you know, all that sort of stuff, or, you know, that's kind of academic, right? That's, that's, that's like a that's an intellectual framework from which you are supposed to extract an emotionally resonant, resonant message. But sometimes it's faster to start with the message and then back into, you know, back into the framework. And I think in and in a lot of respects, vibes vision and values is, in fact, it's, it's message first, framework second, even though, like I have built a framework with my clients to expose vibes, vision and value, like we do leadership interviews, we Do client interviews, and then, you know, and we extract stories from our clients and their clients, and we create something that is, in fact, a framework, but it all starts out with the actual feelings, emotions and impact that they have had. And I think it's just a, it's a, it is. It is a much more accessible way to to approach positioning, and it stops you from saying something like, you know, our clients have a 7.6 return on ads. Ben blah, blah, you know, like, which is totally meaningless. It's like, it's, you know, what's the difference between 240 horsepower and 243 horsepower? I don't know, do you Nope. I mean, three, three is the difference. What does that mean? Right? Nobody knows. Not even the horses.
Chris DuBois 33:37
Yeah, yeah. I think one other benefit that I want to capture here is like, when you're when you are leading with the vibes, it makes it much easier to create, like, the business, the agency, that doesn't feel like when you leave home in the morning, you're just going to work. It's like it's an extension of your life, because you actually get to show up the way you want to there, yes, and so now it's not, you're not dreading Mondays as much, because it's just you, like, you're right. It's, it's a, like, a bigger, it's like, this enterprise around you, yeah? And so, so now you don't have to have all these regrets of, like, well, I go to work and I'm miserable here because of X, Y and Z. It's like, well, yeah, but that's you, like, your personality that should be coming
Tim Kilroy 34:18
through, yeah? And also, as a as a side benefit, it makes client acquisition easier because, you know, the clients who are interested are interested. It also makes talent acquisition easier because people don't want to work in a place. I mean, some people do, but most people don't want to work in a place that feels sterile. They want to. They want to work in a place where they think, like, Fuck yeah. Like, I love the people I work with and I you know, and it can be a little bit easier to find people who are similarly passionate. It if you don't hide what your passions are.
Chris DuBois 35:06
Cheers, yeah. And with that, let's, uh, start winding down here. All right,
Tim Kilroy 35:11
yeah, because we know we blabbed a long time and I was late. Yeah, because, like, because Riverside is smarter than I am. It'll, it'll get you like that. You know, I'm a daughtering old fool, so
Chris DuBois 35:24
just know you're the fun uncle, right? Yeah. So last I asked you, I see this question before, but since it's been almost a year and a half since we've been on podcast together, what book do you recommend every agency?
Tim Kilroy 35:40
What book? So there's a couple, one if you're thinking about selling, actually, I have it right here. My my friend David Baker's, we can't see it because of, but it's, but it's selling your professional service firm, and also well, and because I think David Baker, honestly is, he's, like, the smartest dude in the space, like he really is the the other one, I think that is really worth reading or rereading, if you haven't, is another David Baker book. The business of expertise. Two these books are terrific?
Chris DuBois 36:24
Yeah, yeah,
Tim Kilroy 36:26
definitely worth reading, yeah. And also, I think you've had David on the your podcast, yep, yep. He's just a you know, he and I have only spoken, I think, once, but I read every newsletter he sends out. I look at every LinkedIn post he is.
Chris DuBois 36:46
He's awesome, yeah, yeah, I would agree, yeah. I mean, he's he, if you're listening to this, hear us. We think you're great, yes.
Tim Kilroy 36:58
And also, I this, this book. This is an autographed, this is autographed, right there. It says all my best, you know, so, so that's, that's, let's, that's the David C Baker, fanboy Association. We can call this meeting. We can adjourn this meeting. But, yeah, it is, it's, he's, he's terrific and very thoughtful. And if you, if you need to remember how to think about what you're doing, both of those, you know to start and refine it. The business of expertise is fantastic. And if you're thinking about trying to maximize your exit, selling your professional service firm is killer.
Chris DuBois 37:48
All right. Last question, Where can people find you? Tim kilroy.com,
Tim Kilroy 37:55
or agency inner circle.com. That's my newsletter that goes out twice a week. Join 8000 folks from big, giant agencies, tiny little agencies, Google, you know, Facebook, you know, I've got, we've got HubSpot people from all over are part of this, and I would love for you to join because, you know, my fragile ego needs the boost, man, let's just be honest. Like that's what it is. Cheers.
Chris DuBois 38:29
I feel you will get that linked up in the show notes so that people can find it quickly as well. And, yeah, Tim, thanks for joining again. Yeah.
Tim Kilroy 38:38
Thank you, Chris. And I must say, I just want to compliment you. You are as a as a fellow agency advisor, consultant, Coach person. You are extraordinarily generous with your time and your insight, and the fact that inside of your community, you have agency advisor, and if you are an agency coach or consultant, and you're not part of Chris's private, little, private little group where we, you know, we talk shit about each other and about clients. You know, no, rarely, rare. Well, okay, sometimes, but it's a but I, I so appreciate your investment in community. Awesome.
Chris DuBois 39:21
Well, thank you. Yeah, I enjoy doing it, so, all right, that's a wrap. And go bluey. That's the show everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits. You click the link in the show notes to subscribe to agency forward on sub stack, you'll get weekly content resources and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai