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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
RICK (00:00.86)
What up Tyler King?
Tyler King (00:02.998)
What's up Rick? tired!
RICK (00:06.462)
Yeah, I tried to bring the energy because before we hit record, you said it's been a bout of a week with the baby.
Tyler King (00:12.972)
Yeah. Well, so we normally record every other week, so we should have recorded two weeks ago, but I forgot why one of us pushed it so it was going to be last week we were going to record. And you canceled, but if you hadn't, I was going to cancel because what was going on with you? You were just traveling with six kids or something?
RICK (00:31.44)
We went back to North Carolina, which is from Utah, a five hour flight ish and all the whole family contracted a cold the night before like bad one. And, so we were all sick on the, I felt so bad. You know, when you feel guilty on the plane, like it's so, so it was bad. Yeah. Yeah. And then we got my whole family sick and then we came back. We were sick on the plane back and then woke up and we were all healthy.
Tyler King (00:45.592)
Yeah. God.
Tyler King (00:51.202)
getting everyone else sick.
Tyler King (01:00.526)
Okay. So we were also dealing with sickness. Sydney, the Monday of that week, so normally record on Thursdays, the Monday night Sydney, 10 months old, starts puking. Pretty sure she has neurovirus. She gave it to Shelly, my wife, both my parents, Nikki, the kind of part-time nanny that takes care of her two days a week. It looks like I was going to get out of it, but no.
Like Friday, I started feeling symptoms too. So every adult that this baby encountered got it, went down. Have you had neurovirus before?
RICK (01:33.575)
Went down.
my gosh, yes. It is the most crippling experience you've ever... The nice thing about, the only good thing about neurovirus is when you feel better, you appreciate life in a new way.
Tyler King (01:47.63)
Yeah. So I'm going to try not to be too gross here, but it is a disease that requires flushing the toilet quite a bit. Our water goes out on Friday. So I'm looking at it like we've got four toilets in this house. We've got one flush each. No, thankfully I just went over to my parents' house. It was okay, but...
RICK (01:57.362)
no.
RICK (02:09.123)
no.
Tyler King (02:14.764)
You know, when the whole family's already sick, being in foreign territory, they have a lot of the baby infrastructure, but not quite as nice as what we have at our house. anyway, it's been a lot, but apparently babies take a lot longer. The nice thing about neurovirus is for an adult, I almost said for a human, as if babies are not humans, for an adult, you get over it in like a day or two. It's very quick. It's just a terrible couple of days. Babies apparently can be two plus weeks.
RICK (02:43.197)
Mm.
Tyler King (02:43.872)
Now, all the adults are healthy, but Sydney is pooping three, four times a night and you have to go in and change it right away or else diaper rash. yeah, last night was my night on duty. So I'm a little, that's my long way of saying I'm tired right now.
RICK (02:52.625)
yeah, Diborash, yeah.
RICK (02:59.089)
Well, I'm glad you're through the worst of it.
Tyler King (03:02.006)
Yeah, thank you. Well, I personally am. Hopefully Sydney needs to get better. That's the key.
RICK (03:07.139)
Yeah. Well, if she's at least she's pooping not not coming the other way. So that means at least some nutrients are going through and you know, so that's a good sign.
Tyler King (03:11.725)
That's true.
Tyler King (03:18.348)
Yeah. Aside from that, we've got a special week going on at Less Annoying CRM right now. We are doing AI week. Yeah, so I kind of, think maybe when we talked about this was in the like yearly recap episode. So a little over a month ago, I was just kind of like, know like Cloud Codes get, well, and last episode we talked about how Cloud Codes amazing and all that.
RICK (03:26.641)
What's the special week? What's AI week?
Tyler King (03:47.994)
we have a team of people that are not like prone to adopt that type of thing without a little push, you know? Yeah. partially I think the whole company, including myself, like wishes AI wasn't happening. but then like some people's reaction to that is like my reaction to is that I wish it wasn't happening, but it is. let's go. other people's is I wish it wasn't happening. So let's not.
RICK (03:56.668)
Encouragement.
Tyler King (04:16.674)
Let's just live in the old world as long as we can. And then also, I think we just kind of have a culture here of, I hear from some founders where they're like, every employee I hire is actually their own entrepreneur and I want them to come in and start innovating on their own and all that. That's just not the culture we have here. There's a few people who are kind of driving things and then everyone else, very talented, hardworking, great employees. This is not a criticism of them, just the culture is. If you need to change something about what you're doing,
like your boss will tell you that, you know, as opposed to like, I need to constantly be monitoring what's new and like learning all these new skills on my own. So anyway, that's the prelude to, I knew we needed to do something to get people to adopt this kind of like what I consider kind of gen three of the AI world. Like gen one was ask questions to chat, GBT, gen two was use cursor or something like it to have AI in your coding editor. Gen three is like, you're not writing code anymore.
RICK (04:46.556)
Yeah.
Tyler King (05:14.93)
we were on gen two before and I needed to get people to gen three. So we're doing AI week. have. It's the whole company, but I kind of made clear to everyone, like, I don't think customer service is being disrupted the way coding is yet. there's just, there's not a Claude code equivalent on the support side. So we're trying to involve, the support people by we're actually having them like vibe code their own little internal tool, like a good example.
RICK (05:21.125)
Is this the whole company or is it just the developers?
Tyler King (05:44.888)
Customers send them spreadsheets that need to get imported and there's always little things that need to be tweaked. So they're building little tools to like, we got the Outlook format. We need to convert it into this, the Google format, which is what we support better. So they're building a little AI tool to do that, that type of
RICK (05:59.23)
A quick example of this type of use case is, you know, I, I sent you that database file for the plans. So every year plans updated for the U S on the marketplaces for health insurance. And it's a huge data dump on cost, files from a healthcare.gov, the government site. it usually like took me like days to go through this, understand the file, working in Excel.
Tyler King (06:04.654)
Mm-hmm.
RICK (06:24.897)
blah, blah, blah, blah. and then I'll get it to Tyler and then he'd have questions. Last year I switched it to big query and like created some, you know, tables there this year. went to chat, GBT and said, last year I did this. Can I give you information and you tell me exactly what to do in big query to make this like easy. And it literally like told, it gave me step by step instructions. And in 15 minutes I was done. It was so cool.
Tyler King (06:48.794)
Yeah. Yeah. And it was a lot easier on my end too, because when you only do something once a year, I wrote this code more or less without AI. I used AI, again, Gen 1 AI. But I don't remember how it works a year later, and so I have to go familiar. This time I was just like, hey, Cloud Code, here's the code. Here's the file Rick sent me. What do I do? I still don't even know what it did, but the data is in there, so great.
RICK (07:13.967)
This is the exact same thing. I couldn't remember all there's so many fields, right? It's like, I mean, there's probably, I don't know how many columns of data there are, but like probably 500 columns of data across these files. And I only need to give you like 15. And so it's like, can you please help me combine these files? and find the 15 rows and like give me QHX and it did everything flawlessly. It was so good.
Tyler King (07:16.846)
huh.
Tyler King (07:35.682)
Yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, like there's opportunities for stuff like that for serum coaches to do. But I think the big thing that shifted from last year to this year or whatever timeframe you want to look at is the dev side. So it's like 90 % of what we're focusing on is on the dev team here. So I'm happy to talk about this as much as you want. I'm not, the main thing though, so.
Michael, our head of customer service, had the perfect analogy for what we're trying to do here. So I keep repeating it to everyone I see. You know, Whisperflow or, okay, various AI text dictation things. He'd been, you know, as a customer service person, he types a lot and he had been trying to use Whisperflow to save on some of the typing. But like when you're really good at typing and you're not used to using this new tool, you just default back to typing, right? You default back to what you know.
RICK (08:08.999)
yeah, yeah, I've got it on my computer. Yeah. Yep.
Tyler King (08:27.746)
Then at our Friendsgiving party last year, he sliced his finger real bad on a knife and basically couldn't type for a while as he was recovering. And so he had no choice but to use Whisper Flow. then he got fluent with it. He got really good at using a computer where all of the text input is voice. And then his finger got better. And of course he goes back to typing most of the time. But now he can switch back and forth and use whichever tool is the right tool to use.
But if he had never cut his finger, he wouldn't have gotten good enough with whisper flow to break through that.
RICK (09:00.701)
So we're saying we need to play like Edward 40 hands in the office and force voice dictation.
Tyler King (09:03.95)
Absolutely, yes. We actually had another person. So we have eight CRM coaches. Another one had some kind of wrist problem and also had to use it. So two of the eight people are really good with voice dictation and no one else is. So yeah, Edward Forty's hands is a more fun way to do that.
RICK (09:21.113)
JJ Reddick. Yeah, JJ Reddick credits his shooting to breaking his wrist and call it in a in high school because he had to like shoot left handed over and over again and basically perfected his form with his left hand while his right wrist is broken. And then when he switched back to his right wrist, he perfected it, re perfected his form. So there is something to be said for like self like. Like basically. I don't know what the right word is, but like like.
Tyler King (09:29.079)
really?
RICK (09:49.123)
making it so you can't do something intentionally to learn a new habit.
Tyler King (09:51.362)
Yeah, yeah. So we're taking that energy. I'm not one of these people who's like, humans should not write code anymore, vibe code everything, put your blast shields down and just go. I mean, I think for certain projects that probably makes sense. I think for established mature SaaS products like Less Annoying CRM, stability and quality and craftsmanship are still the differentiator. Like you can vibe code something simple and good.
You can vibe code something complex and bad. have yet to see like, or I shouldn't say it. Anyway, I think there's still merit to developers knowing how to code. That's not the point here, but you gotta know the other tools. So for this week, we're saying you're not allowed to write any code at all for a week.
RICK (10:39.025)
I don't know what the word craftsmanship means exactly, but like, I kind of feel like it's a buzzword right now to like say like, like, I'm the old ways gonna stick around. I think what you mean is like, there's still the need for skill. That's what you mean, right? Yeah.
Tyler King (10:53.9)
Yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Yes. Not that, yeah, I think everything will change. Let me give you a specific example and it's possible six months from now AI is better and this won't be true. But right now we're, so the, gave every, all the devs kind of an easy project and a hard project. The easy one just to warm up and then the hard one to, yeah, to do it for real. A lot of the easy ones are just a one shot. Like I give.
RICK (11:00.413)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler King (11:20.716)
the developer a Notion card. If they just copy the Notion card directly into Cloud Code, Cloud Code gives them the result back and it's good enough. Like there are projects like that, but the more complicated they get. An example, a lot of queries within loops, like database queries within loops, which we run it locally, it works fine. Like the feature works. If you just test it out, it works. And then you deploy it and your 50 largest customers, their accounts crash. We caught those in code review.
RICK (11:35.046)
Hmm.
Tyler King (11:51.214)
AI fucked it up to that. We're like AI would have caused problems. and we have, yeah. And we have in our like code review thing, like it even in one case caught one and then, you know, the next block of code down below, had the exact same pattern and it didn't catch that one. So my point is being like, I don't think it's safe to just let like hand over the reins to the AI entirely, but it can speed us up a lot if we get good at the tool. So that's kind of the, the goal of this week is to go too far.
RICK (11:55.335)
Yeah, that would have been bad.
Tyler King (12:20.504)
and then kind of pull back and find some equilibrium in the middle going forward.
RICK (12:23.899)
Yeah, you're throwing a bunch of stuff on the wall, see what sticks and if stuff sticks, you'll keep doing it.
Tyler King (12:29.26)
Yeah. So.
RICK (12:31.191)
Are you familiar with Claude Cowork while we're on this subject? Is that the same thing as Claude Code or is that something different? I just got a license.
Tyler King (12:34.444)
Yeah, I've used it.
I can't, despite me using it, so it should have the same license. They're not different. You'd install the desktop app, I assume, the Claude desktop app. Okay. Here's my impression of what's going. So if you install the desktop app, there's like three tabs. There's Claude, which is just ChatGPT. It's just a chat bot. There's Claude Cowork and there's Claude Code. Cowork and Code seem, as far as I can tell, to be the exact same thing, which is to say it's a full,
RICK (12:43.023)
Okay.
RICK (12:47.261)
I haven't I haven't I just got it last night. I'm going to be setting up this morning.
Tyler King (13:08.522)
agentic thing. It's not just a chat bot and it primarily is designed to do to interact with files on your computer versus just get text in and output text back. There must be differences, but from what I, you can write code with Cloud Cowork. Everything you can do in Cloud Cowork, can do in Cloud Code as far as I can tell. Most people using Cloud Code are doing it through a terminal UI, not through the desktop app, but like you can use Cloud Code through the desktop app. I cannot tell. I've used them both.
I've done things useful with both of them. I cannot tell the difference.
RICK (13:42.193)
Got it. Okay. Interesting.
Tyler King (13:45.954)
I, now that these tools are so focused on local files, I feel like, well, I spent the last 15 years putting everything in the cloud and I want more use cases. I found one. I had exactly one, which is I had all these, like every photo I take, I back up to Dropbox, which then syncs down to my computer. But there's just this big unorganized mess. And I was like, hey, cowork, go organize all these into folders based on like date and like theme of the photos.
and it did it great. So it's cool.
RICK (14:16.583)
That's cool. Yeah, I am assuming that this stuff integrates with Google Drive, which is where I use, I store all my files.
Tyler King (14:25.356)
Yeah, it probably does, although it might be better to Google Drive will just sync all the files to your computer. I get the, yeah, I don't know.
RICK (14:32.347)
Yeah, that's probably what I should do.
Well, in an org, like if you're using shared drives, the sheer volume of files is just not worth thinking to your desktop. Like, you know, like, and that's where I, I mean, most of the app, most of the applications in my job are going to be creating using Claude. Cowork to create automations and processes and connecting dots that say people time, not me time. And so I'm going to need to be able to like work across systems, not Mike Mike. There's nothing valuable on my desktop to help me with solve problems.
Tyler King (14:42.318)
Sure.
Tyler King (15:04.63)
Right. Yeah, but that's the problem I'm facing too. But I do think the tools are really good for if there are files on your desktop. Like, yes, it can connect to the Notion API or the Google Drive API. But for example, when you use Cloud Code on your computer, it's doing a lot of command line on your computer things, like it's grepping things, like which was basically a search, but like.
Yes, you can run a search in Google Drive, but it's not going to work. It's not going to be able to just grep stuff real quick the way it can locally. I assume, again, six months from now, they'll just have fixed it. Like, cloud code level power will exist in the cloud in some way that I'm having trouble picturing right now. But right now, I just feel like the local stuff is so much more powerful.
RICK (15:49.701)
Grep, Grep sounds like a dirty word. Sounds like something you shouldn't be doing to another person.
Tyler King (15:52.658)
You
Tyler King (15:56.684)
I think a lot of those Linux commands do. Grok came from that ecosystem. Yeah, I'm probably an idiot and listeners are probably like, what are you talking about? You can do this just fine in the cloud. I don't know. That's been my experience so far.
RICK (15:58.78)
Yeah.
RICK (16:11.515)
We're at Windfall's offices. I believe it's the old Anthropic office, by the way. We just we just moved into, yeah. That's who develops Cloud, right? Yeah.
Tyler King (16:16.134)
really? Wow.
Tyler King (16:22.018)
Yeah, yeah. They're really having a moment. Boy, I would hate to be OpenAI right now.
RICK (16:28.107)
But don't doesn't I mean isn't all this built on isn't Claude calling no that's her own thing
Tyler King (16:34.038)
Mm-mm. Claude has, yeah, so there's like the frontier model companies. The main ones, think. think OpenAI with GPT is the main one. And then I think Anthropic with Claude and there's Claude Opus, Claude Haiku, there's different versions, is number two, I think. And then there's Gemini. Maybe Gemini is number two, whatever. And then I think Grok maybe, or Facebook has Llama, there's Grok. And then there's like a bunch of open source ones.
RICK (16:51.901)
Good night.
RICK (17:00.444)
Wow.
Tyler King (17:03.864)
But think like most people would consider Claude to be the best or second best frontier model as they call it right now.
RICK (17:14.438)
Interesting.
Tyler King (17:15.724)
Yeah, I don't know. I will say I, I'm trying to follow this stuff as much as I can, but I am feeling a bit like a LinkedIn imposter as in like someone who's talking about it, but not doing it. which is making weird feelings about that.
RICK (17:33.628)
Yeah. The thing I'm struggling with is I think a lot of this stuff to do it right at an org requires some level of collaboration across people, teams, processes, systems. And I think it's very easy to like in a siloed environment, go do a bunch of shit, but then how do you actually make that affect multiple people without disrupting their current workflows? Like that's where it's getting hard for me. I think there's a lot of ideas.
Tyler King (17:55.352)
Yeah.
RICK (18:02.039)
people come up with that they can get to like 90 % baked, but like, how do you actually, how do you get it to like actual value? I'm pretty worried. And then it's like, people spend a lot of time getting these things to 90 % baked. And then it's like, okay, now we're all arguing about how do we like, we all have these 90 % baked. Yeah. Yes, exactly. so
Tyler King (18:05.644)
Yes, yes.
Tyler King (18:19.534)
Yeah, where do we host it? Do we need a login and auth system? How do we handle security? This is part of why I think all these people that just build prototypes, like they're just launching app after app after app, they think it's great because that 90 % is enough and they ship it. But yeah, at a real company, 90 % is not good enough.
RICK (18:36.701)
Exactly. Especially when you have something working on the other end that you're trying to just like improve. There's risk. I don't know, but it might be one of those burn the boats moments where you just need to be like, it's okay. Like, we're going to make mistakes. Like that's, that's one of the things like with my AISDR stuff, like outbound AI use cases, like I'm having to get comfortable with just it making some mistakes. And I have a really hard time with that.
Tyler King (19:00.984)
There's different types of mistakes though. Like it seems obvious to me that with the approach people are taking to vibe coding right now, we are introducing an order of magnitude more security problems than in the past. At the same time, AI is probably going to be even better at like being the attacker in a security scenario. I think we're just like, is security just dead? Just all information is public now? It seems totally unsustainable.
you like how quickly people are coding with AI. Anyway, yeah. Anyway, that 90 % thing I have personally, even ignoring collaborating with other people, I'll like be sitting on the couch at night and be like, I have an idea for something I want. I'll start prompting. It'll start coding. It'll like mostly work. But then I'm like, it's not good enough. And it would take me a month to get this good enough. It took me two hours to get it almost good enough.
And then I just throw it away. I've thrown away more projects than I've actually finished here.
RICK (20:04.145)
Yeah, I think, think it's where, where, where I feel the pain right now is when someone else has that 90 % and they're looking at me to get it to a hundred percent. I'm like, okay. But like, what are you actually trying to accomplish? Like there's like, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? They're like, Rick, get out of the way. You know, I'm like, yeah, it's like, okay. I'm sorry. The risk here is not worth the reward. I'm sorry that you spent so much time on this without like, you know, and I, I, I, I, I think like what I want to start tracking and pay more attention to is
Tyler King (20:19.66)
Yeah, yeah.
Tyler King (20:25.656)
Mm-hmm.
RICK (20:33.437)
how much effort is going into getting to 90 % because I actually think it's not, I think it's a decent amount of effort. Like there's a lot of time that people are spending to get like, it's like, what is the opportunity cost there? I don't know, but maybe, maybe it's worth like spending the time on this to find one hit. Like if you do 10 of these and one hits, like maybe that's the, maybe it's a venture model.
Tyler King (20:48.13)
Yeah.
Well, think this is, so yes, maybe that's true, which is just good old fashioned. This has been a business challenge from day one is you've got a million ideas and which ones do you work on? I think one problem with AI is it empowers everybody to go. So this was one of my notes to bring up. There's a really good conversation on the panel podcast. I don't know which episode, the one with Jordan Gall that was somewhat recent where.
Jordan is running a kind of high growth-ish startup that is very, very AI-pilled. the theme of it was just like, yes, you can move a lot faster, but that causes all these other problems that you have to address. Like a good example being, okay, if everyone's coding so much faster, who's designing? Who's doing the product management? Well, now the coders have to, but do they have that skill set? But another problem he brought up that I thought was really interesting is if someone could just go spend two hours building their pet project,
RICK (21:29.991)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler King (21:44.77)
and then they submit a pull request like, okay, let's merge it in. It's like, no, I'm the product manager and I did not, I don't like that idea. But now you think like, rather than me saying, me just never assigning it to you. And so it never gets done. You've built it and it works. And I'm saying, no, that's like, we've never experienced that problem before. And that's going to happen more and more, I think.
RICK (22:07.659)
that's that, that is that captures what I'm, what I was trying to say. It's like, now, now you've got someone who's like offended, they spent time on something. It's like, Hey, like we still got to, like, I know that this is your first time doing this kind of thing. You haven't thought about the downstream dependencies of actually getting this to production. Like, and it's like, okay, well, do I, what do you do in that situation? Do you slow down and try to teach? Like that's the collaboration piece. Or do you say, Hey, like bring me an earlier so I can help you think through this. Like, or do you say no.
Tyler King (22:30.35)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler King (22:36.258)
Yeah. And maybe even a more extreme version of no is you say, nobody do this. Do what you're told. Don't go vibe code, whatever the fuck you want.
RICK (22:40.731)
Yeah
RICK (22:44.849)
I think that's wrong, like philosophically, but yeah, like those are options.
Tyler King (22:53.208)
But in the past, would have been obvious to them. Like showing initiative would have meant, I'm gonna do a little bit of research, I'm gonna put a proposal together, I'm gonna send it to someone. Now it's you build the whole thing and then you send it to somebody. So I agree that the answer isn't to say stop proposing things. But it might be like, go back to proposing them. Don't build it, you know?
RICK (23:12.061)
Mm-hmm.
RICK (23:16.925)
Yeah. Yes. Like do do more front work. Well, that's the problem though. Like it's like it's hard to do front work when you don't know what's possible. So what's happening right now is people are are vibing their way into what's possible. And then they come up with like in the moment they're like, I spent, you know, four hours on this. And then in the fourth hour, I had a eureka moment. And I just solved problems we've been talking about for five years. And it's like, okay. But you can't you actually didn't solve it. You have
Tyler King (23:30.946)
Yeah.
Tyler King (23:43.768)
You
RICK (23:46.173)
You have prototyped a solution and the amount of the last 10 % is actually the hard part.
Tyler King (23:48.205)
Yeah.
Tyler King (23:52.386)
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what to do. Again, we don't really have that culture in the first place here. It's also at a, I saw someone tweet or skeet as they call on the blue skies that something that I thought was really interesting, which is like arguably big companies are in a better position to handle what's like this type of shift with AI because the bigger a company is, the more you already have just like
built systems to handle the chaos of a bunch of different people's opinions. At a company the size of less knowing CRM, it is reasonable to have one product manager. Every single thing we work on goes through one person. not only is it reasonable, it's an asset. It's a strength of a small company that they can be so focused and opinionated. And it's a weakness of a big company that there's no single vision that drives all of the product decisions. But the flip side of that is the big company has
layers of review and KPIs and whatever to, yeah, so if everyone's vibe coding this stuff, presumably they're a little bit more prepared to handle it.
RICK (24:53.393)
governance.
RICK (24:58.726)
Yeah.
Tyler King (25:00.503)
Anyway.
RICK (25:01.157)
Yeah, there's there's an interesting conversation we should have as we as we watch this more of like, how do you I know there's probably been this has probably been discussed elsewhere. I don't listen to it. But like, what how do you how do you design a company to take it to take maximum advantage of this? I mean, I it's easy when you're a single person at a company, but like a 10 person company, 100 person company, 200 person company, even a 20 person company, like what does that look like in terms of an org chart and skills and roles?
Tyler King (25:31.086)
Well, if you're starting fresh right now, my answer is you stay a three person company forever. But yeah, if you're already.
RICK (25:31.261)
That's good.
RICK (25:35.259)
Yeah, that's right. think you're right. And you outsource human labor.
Tyler King (25:40.802)
Yeah, yeah, yes, obviously some companies need to be more than three people, but like for people with our mental like kind of bootstrapper mentality. The yeah, anyway, you can get a more done with fewer people.
RICK (25:44.476)
Yeah.
RICK (25:51.098)
And I, I think there'll be a lot more, like, think outsourcing, there are certain tasks that need human review. And I think they're going to be a lot more, I thought like, maybe there's one view of like, call centers, the call center is dead. But like, I still think there's this like, someone is creating massive, like offices with people in them and managing quality, like of like task rabbits. And I think there, there is going to be an increasing demand for that.
Tyler King (26:11.054)
Yeah.
Tyler King (26:17.774)
That something I meant to mention earlier is that kind of relates to that. As much as like all of us who are following AI closely see this rapid change and it seems like faster than any tech shift ever before, yada yada. Um, the world is not changing yet. Like people are still being hired to do all of these jobs that, that maybe in theory could be automated away with AI, but they haven't been yet. And like my customers.
When they're calling on the phone, they're not asking primarily about AI. When people cancel, they're not canceling because we don't have AI features. I'm not saying it's not coming, but it hasn't happened yet. so like that's another thing is I worry about getting ahead of like, you think because the tech's there, therefore everyone's behavior must change, but behavior could take a decade to change potentially.
RICK (27:09.137)
And you don't know I actually what the impact is like the I think the example that a lot of people throw around is like when the jet was invented, like there's everyone thought that was going to be like a decline in jobs for pilots. And the opposite happened because there was more demand for flight.
Tyler King (27:20.462)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler King (27:24.47)
Yeah, yes, that's always been true. I think we've talked about this before, but that will always be true until the first time it's not. I don't think it's a given that that will be the case with AI, it hasn't happened yet, right? Jobs are up, is my understanding, assuming you can trust these numbers these days. One other thing I wanted to mention that we were talking about, this is kind of a non sequitur, but it's AI related. Increasingly, our customer service people are getting at the phone rings, they pick up, they say, hey, how
RICK (27:27.559)
Mm.
RICK (27:30.96)
Yeah.
RICK (27:38.694)
Mm.
Tyler King (27:53.388)
Lesson doing serum, my name is so and so, what can I do for you?" The person is just like, are you AI? And they're like, no, no, I'm a person. And they're like, prove it.
RICK (28:03.845)
Sir, how would you like me to prove that? Ask me something that only I would know. It's like reverse verification.
Tyler King (28:04.142)
How do you prove it? Yeah, like, what can the human say that the AI wouldn't be?
Yeah, but which is a touring test. I don't we've been brainstorming. How do you because whatever answer we come up with right you could be like, yeah, I was born in Minneapolis. The AI could say that right? What do you say?
RICK (28:24.813)
could be AI. What does it matter if I'm AI or not? That's probably what you say. Yeah.
Tyler King (28:30.292)
Sure, but they're asking. No, I don't like that answer because it does matter. This is one of our differentiators. And they've even apparently said...
RICK (28:36.899)
Yeah. No, your differentiator is customer service. It is not human customer service.
Tyler King (28:42.094)
I think it's both.
RICK (28:44.093)
I don't think it matters if...
Tyler King (28:46.646)
I think if you were our customer, it wouldn't matter, but I think to our customers, matters very much. That's why they're asking.
RICK (28:51.237)
If they don't, yeah, but like.
I'm trying to think of an analogy here. It's like, yeah, like it's the same experience.
Tyler King (28:57.516)
If they can't tell, what's the difference?
But I mean, that's okay. Then we don't need any marketing because everyone should just make the rational decision and choose the right thing. Like this is part of the story. I saw another interesting comment recently that I don't know if this is true, but OpenAI currently has that Codex is currently better than Cloud Code, but everyone's using Cloud Code. So even in this like hyper rational world, everyone's just going on brand vibes. yeah, it matters.
RICK (29:14.609)
It's.
RICK (29:25.603)
Okay. I got you. It's yeah, I hear it's like it's kind of like the we you know, for every, you know, bottle of water you buy of my water, I'm going to give a dollar to you know, this charity. So buy from me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I buy that.
Tyler King (29:37.856)
Yeah, right. I'm Ben and Jerry's instead of whatever. Maybe that's not true for everyone, but anyway, I just think it's a really interesting challenge of like, I have no idea how we can prove that we're humans. It's like we could do a video chat, but pretty soon, I don't think AI can make live video fast enough to right now, but like, it's just a matter of time.
RICK (29:51.709)
you
RICK (29:59.75)
I've seen some, I've seen some, prototypes of video live video agent AI that like does like, I guess not live. guess it's, no, it's live cause it's like interactive demos. Basically I was looking at it in the context of, know, how do we, the like automate JD's like initial pitch, like, well, basically there are some service out there. can like basically prompt a video AI to, to have the context from like a form and then.
Tyler King (30:10.038)
It is.
RICK (30:29.659)
Like basically answer questions live on a video chat with a prospect. Yeah. And go into like demos and that sort of thing. Yeah.
Tyler King (30:40.354)
All right, Brave New World. We done with AI or you got anything else on this? Yeah, yeah, we could.
RICK (30:42.365)
I'm
We could talk about this forever, man. I think, I think what would, with the AI stuff, think we're kind of past the point of like, is this real? I would love to start talking more about like, I think we should both try to bring here's an actual thing of value we did with AI every episode so that we stopped talking about hypotheticals and start getting more and more like real things. I think we talked about a few of those today, but I would love to hear more of those.
Tyler King (31:09.592)
Yeah, mine are all just going to be, we coded another feature faster, but yeah. Cool. You got what's on your list.
RICK (31:18.329)
I just have a quick revenue update and like kind of what's next for leg up health. So,
high level, like our revenue for the year 2025 was 230 K, um, $230,000, which was up 75 % from 131 K and 2024. So not bad. I mean, it's not necessarily like something to go brag about, but like, it's a, it's kind of like, okay, this is a real thing now. Um, in terms of like breaking that down into recurring monthly revenue, like we track MRR, um, it's not necessarily. Recurring revenue from a subscription standpoint entirely, but it is recurring in nature. So we just kind of flub.
Tyler King (31:55.182)
I mean, most of it's a subscription, right?
RICK (31:57.02)
Yeah, it's, it's a, well, most of it's a commission, right? And, and, but people can cancel. Yeah. So let's call it.
Tyler King (32:01.208)
Commission on a subscription though. Insurance is a subscription.
RICK (32:06.183)
kind of but it's it's a you know, it's unilateral subscription like the carrier can't cancel you but you can cancel the carrier any month. So like, it's a month a month. That's true. That's true. Okay, so I'll say it's MRR. Anyway, we had 21k roughly an MRR text the year our goal was 20 to get to 20k last year. So mission accomplished, I think, as I'll talk about in a second, we're going to see a slight dip on the
Tyler King (32:13.732)
my customer, that's what MRR is. Yeah.
RICK (32:29.725)
MRR in February and March TBD on the exact, like, hopefully it doesn't fall below 20 K if it does in a big deal. Um, we have, uh, just to kind of like where we are as a business, we have three revenue lines. We have the individual like consumer health insurance commission. Um, we have our group health insurance commission, which is kind of a new thing that we, we focused on last year. And then our leg up benefits subscription revenue, which is the kind of the software subscript, service subscription that the Tyler's helped us engineer.
Um, so like individual health insurance commissions, unexpectedly declined due to like getting massively killed by subsidy expiration and Q4, um, group health insurance commissions grew big time. need to actually look at the numbers and try to break this down into line items so that we can see. But like, believe individual insurance commissions contracted by some, you know, 10 % 10 to 20%. I believe group insurance commissions, like more than doubled or like close to tripled. And then our leg up benefits subscriptions just like grew, uh,
Basically, 100%. You know, basically the same like flat growth year over year.
Tyler King (33:32.75)
That's a pretty, the leg of benefits subscription is a pretty small percentage of total revenue there,
RICK (33:36.422)
Yeah. So if you look at like total revenue, it's like 50, it's like 45, 45 individual to group now, and then, you know, 5 % like that benefits or less. and the, the general, I would say that the general sort of observation I have is that we can, we need to focus on group health insurance more and more and, and making it easier for us to win those deals. If I look at like our biggest, like there's, there's
our biggest wins and our biggest losses all came in the group space. We lost our big art, two of our largest revenue producing customers to other group brokers, primarily because we never were seen by those customers as being able to help them with their group challenges, because we hadn't repositioned ourselves and marketed ourselves to them. They saw us as the stipend provider. They were they were the leg up benefits line.
And so, what's, what's positive is that we're seeing, like, if we can get someone on like a benefits free or paid, it's a natural lead into group health insurance. We've converted many of those to group, but if they don't know that we, if they get us at pigeonholed into this niche, like, you know, kind of non-group software program, we lose, we lose them when they're the biggest opportunity. And so that's what I think we need to focus is basically shoring up, how we approach, a business.
who is interested in group quotes and is ready for group health insurance, even if they decide to go leg up benefits or individual health insurance, that's fine. But like we need to be like there to win it with group health insurance. So what that turns into for me is like, I'm starting to think about what's the vision for the next few years with the learnings over the last three? What does that mean for what we should focus this year? How should we spend the money that we have now that we have some excess profit? And what are the, you know,
What are the things that we need to like focus on specifically over the next six to nine months to set us up for another year of growth?
Tyler King (35:36.062)
Awesome. So a of questions. One, if individual insurance like subsidies had not expired, you think you'd still be saying we need to like group is where it's at? Why is that? Like why is group a better business?
RICK (35:53.706)
I don't think it's a better business necessarily. I just think that the market right now, now is not supportive of individual health insurance with subsidies or not. There are, there are, challenges with recruiting and retention still with our sweet spot. So like what we're learning is, well, let me say better business. I think I'm reacting to better business. Let me back up. When you say better business, I look at our better businesses being able to do all three of these things.
Tyler King (36:22.616)
Sure, but why should we be focusing more on groups?
RICK (36:23.221)
the primary reason is that the revenue per customer, it goes back to, how can we scale the business with three people? and the most leverage right now for us is in more in how do we scale servicing group customers? Our average revenue per customer is higher. Generally, customers who offer group health insurance have more employees. So the revenue per customer is versus the cost per customer is much higher. It's like higher margin. Yeah.
Tyler King (36:50.988)
Yeah. Okay. So JD can service X dollars in revenue from individual clients or three X from group or something like that. like we can get higher before we need to go hire another person to do that.
RICK (37:04.699)
That's the offensive mindset. The other side of this is we're also weakest at group health insurance. So while it's our fastest growing segment, it's also our, I would say our weakest product offering. because we don't necessarily have the know-how and the, and the, and the, I would say the, the, the process and technical acumen to, to make it a differentiated experience for our prospect. And even if like, so my hypothesis here is like,
Tyler King (37:09.422)
Mmm.
RICK (37:33.798)
If we get really good at group, I believe we'll also get really good at the other stuff because oftentimes people who should be on leg up benefits are people who want think they want group until they realize how much it costs and understand the offerings. And if we get really good at, here's who we are here. And like, here's a very quick time to value on what your options are and how much group health insurance is going to cost you.
Tyler King (37:48.109)
Yeah.
RICK (37:58.462)
I think that we are going to win whatever direction they go and we're going to turn that into a customer. like ultimately the vision still is hasn't changed at all, which is if you're a small business and you want to offer health benefits, we're going to be your quickest way to understand all your options and pick a direction and we're going to win your business. Whether that's on our free leg up benefits, our paid leg up benefits or a group health insurance with individual commissions on the first two.
Tyler King (38:20.6)
Yeah, but we hope they end up for kind of a profitability standpoint. We hope they end up on the group link.
RICK (38:26.757)
I don't necessarily, I don't care about that. no, I, that's not what it.
Tyler King (38:29.354)
You kind of just said you do. If we can service more revenue from group, it's better for the business to have more group people. I'm not saying we would push people. I'm not saying we would give them bad advice, conflict of interest. I'm just saying a business making a million dollars a year where 80 % of it's coming from group is a more profitable one than the same business where 20 % of it's coming
RICK (38:37.625)
I... Yeah. Yes.
RICK (38:51.001)
Today, I would say that if we found that, man, the market shifting, leg up benefits is now the best solution for most of our customers, we would shift our sort of bottleneck focus to, you know, making that segment more scalable, profitable, et cetera.
Tyler King (38:59.118)
Yeah.
Tyler King (39:06.776)
Yeah. While you were talking, a thought that occurred is we've talked a lot about ICP, ideal customer profile. I wonder if there's a concept of ideal buying journey or something like that, where people are going to buy and all kinds Some people are going to come directly to group and stay there. Some people are going to come directly to individual and stay there. the thing about group that we've talked about in our private meetings so much is... A challenging thing about being in insurance, about selling insurance is...
we don't make the product. We can build software around it or whatever, but the core product is insurance. It's offered by the insurance company. It's a commodity. We can't differentiate it ourselves. So we have better service, but the product itself isn't. And there's all these other companies selling the exact same thing. How do we differentiate? I like the idea that we have a back door into that process. And so the ideal buying journey is something like
we can get an individual insurance customer that is the owner of a business and then they can sign up for leg up benefits and offer individual insurance to all their employees and then like step after step after step and then they end up as a group client. No one else can take that path.
RICK (40:19.513)
Exactly. that's what's broken for us right now is we had two customers who followed that journey and we lost them at the group conversion. And so that's the hole in our business model right now that we need to close. And I think if we close that we're in a really good place to get to a million in revenue over the next few years.
Tyler King (40:24.471)
Yeah, yeah.
Tyler King (40:35.736)
Yeah, okay, cool. Great, well yeah, thanks for sharing that. Even though I am in these meetings, I don't know that I knew those exact numbers.
RICK (40:46.119)
Well, that's what's interesting. I think is, you know, in these partner meetings, we're very, I think we've been very tactical over the last few years. It's mostly like a JD, like, what do you need? You know, let's, let's support JD. I think this is the first time over the last couple of months where we've said a lot to, your advice and, sort of, what I would call direction is like, Hey, let's step back. Let's give ourselves space to think. And we've really over the last two partner meetings, not had tactical.
a lot of tactical conversation. We've said like, let's just explore. It's been extremely uncomfortable for me because we've, we've like thrown, like we've looked at our business model and said, this is stupid. And then we've gone to another business, like, we pivot into this? Like, no, that's stupid. And we've gone like everywhere. And I would say like, it was very uncomfortable for me, but it's also, you come back around to like a new way of looking at your business. That is you have much more conviction on, I have much more conviction on what, what I'm saying right now than I did two months ago because of the journey that we went through.
and I think that's going to be paid dividends, in terms of like what we focus on and the plan, but also like the, the confidence in which we attack the plan. I think JD feels it too, by the way.
Tyler King (41:48.418)
Yeah.
Tyler King (41:53.858)
Yeah. Okay. One final thing. I think the plan, I don't know what the plan is in terms of the tactics, but I think as we've been talking about it more like you said, group insurance is where you should be focused kind of on growth anyway. So let's go get group insurance customers. Although what I just heard from you maybe is an argument that our top of funnel is getting individual or like group, like a benefits. Is that how you're thinking about it?
RICK (42:21.391)
Yeah. So I, I, I, I think like that's where we were having the little miscommunication earlier is like, I'm not saying we need to go get group health insurance customers. What I'm saying is we need to go get employer customers and we need to focus on improving our group health insurance servicing. And so like there's kind of two areas of focus. One is we need more sort of qualified leads that are I C P. What, however we decided to define that.
coming in with a, are, that have a offer that is resonating with them, which could be group health insurance. could be individual insurance, could be stipends or could be some vert like combination. Or it could be different based on the journey, know, the situation that they're in. And then we like where I think we are, we are not good enough yet is that first sort of experience they have with our offering, which starts with the, like, I don't want call it the state. I guess it's the sales process, but it's like,
From offer to offer, like initial offer to offer fulfillment, not like selling group health, like actually buying the group, the insurance, but like the evaluation process, think. Includes group health insurance and all the other options, but how do we do it? Like most people who are coming in are saying, can you get any group quotes?
Tyler King (43:28.302)
Yeah, sorry, I'm going to interrupt real quick. get that like one of the unique things about Leg Up Health is we can take an employer client and say, whatever it is you need, we can offer it. And obviously we should keep doing that. But that's different from like, what is our marketing strategy? What are we trying to get? Are we trying to get someone that's going to end up ultimately picking leg up benefits with the hope that it's kind of like a freemium play and years from now they'll go to group? Are we trying to get someone that will go directly to
RICK (43:40.189)
Mm-hmm.
RICK (43:56.408)
I don't know, honestly, th th that this gets into, think the buyer journey conversation you have, I think that is, so there two, I would say there are two things. One thing I know for certain and one thing I'm not sure on the one thing I know for certain is we have existing lead flow that we are losing deals on because our first. Like sort of impression and approach on helping them understand all their options and specifically getting them like sort of a quick understanding of what their group health insurance options are.
is too slow and too cumbersome and not valuable enough. And so we're losing the opportunity to consult with them and win the business either whether it's a free leg up benefits with individual commission, a paid leg up benefits commission or a group health insurance commission. So I know that we need to like solve that. Like that is P zero for me. The second thing is if we want to grow, we also need to get more leads into the top of the funnel. I don't necessarily like, I think the challenge I have is like,
what's the best way like to your question is like, what's the best way to generate the best lead? What is the best lead and what's the best way to generate it? And I don't know, I think there's like kind of like cart before the horse there or like which one you focus on is that the like there's potentially sales message resonance that could work going after people without group health insurance that gets them into like a benefits or there's potential sales message revenue residents that goes after people with group health insurance, getting them to our brokerage. And I don't necessarily know.
I think you're probably right where we need to focus on what the buying trigger is for these people, regardless of their situation and, focus on that. and had them come in and say, Hey, now we, what we do know is that based on the ICP we pick in terms of like, let's just call it number of employees. There is a propensity of whether or not they're going to go with group health insurance. The, the more employees a company has the liar likelihood they are at offer group health insurance. And so there's probably some sort of sweet spot in terms of like,
where we target in terms of ICP that affects the conversion rate to group health insurance. But I don't know the answer to that yet. I think we need to figure that out.
Tyler King (45:56.642)
Yeah, okay, yeah, that feels like a good either next or second to next step to figure out, which segues nicely into my next and probably final topic here, unless you got anything else on that.
RICK (46:09.403)
I got nothing else. Thanks for, thanks for letting me belabor that.
Tyler King (46:12.174)
Yeah. So yeah, we, uh, less knowing CRM has kind of started soft launching some new positioning. It's A B testing right now. So you may or may not see it, but, previously our positioning was, um, you are already looking at a bunch of CRMs. You've evaluated ones before us. They've annoyed you in one way or another. Here are the three reasons we're not annoying. Uh, or here are the three things we do. We, we promise that no one else can promise, which is.
pricing, the simplicity and the customer service. We say it, the copy is a lot better than what I just said. Based on things I mentioned on this podcast, especially related to the idea that pretty much everyone that are ideal customers anyway, are actually coming not from a different CRM, but from a spreadsheet. And they want the spreadsheet, they like the spreadsheet, but the spreadsheet is just breaking down for them. And for almost everyone, it's one specific way. Like there's 20 different reasons a spreadsheet might not be enough for them.
but it's normally one thing per person. So our new positioning, the kind of H1 on the website says more than a spreadsheet, less than a CRM. And then the next line says you've maxed out your spreadsheet, but every CRM you've tried is stuffed with features you'll never use. So that's kind of the new positioning we're working on here, which A, let me tie that back to what we were just saying, which is like when someone clicks an ad or whatever, are they seeing
can't afford group insurance, no problem. We've got something else for you. are they seeing other insurance agencies don't offer you all these options. We offer everything, right? We're serving the same customer and they may end up in the same product, but like we're kind of, yeah, yeah. So anyway, and then...
RICK (47:52.223)
The pain that they're experiencing is different.
RICK (47:57.022)
Can you do like, is your opinion that you can do both? Like, like you're, you're talking about homepage, you know, sort of landing here. Um, but like you could, like, if you're, if you're generating demand through different cycles, you can send it to different offers.
Tyler King (48:01.526)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler King (48:08.622)
Absolutely. Yeah. If you're doing specialized landing page, yeah, you could run 20 different campaigns with 20 different things. I still think like the company as a whole does need positioning and Jason Cohen has a really good blog post about ICP stuff that I recommend if you just search Jason Cohen ICP. But his point that he makes, which, so I am really excited about our new positioning. Nothing ever matters. So will it improve growth? Probably not. But like,
RICK (48:11.133)
We probably should do that.
RICK (48:26.033)
Yeah, look at that.
Tyler King (48:37.838)
I just feel a lot better about it. And the reason is because it's so much more specific. It's like actually saying something and it's so tempting. A business like Lesson on Serum, you can look at it and be like, we've got so many, we've got customers in 20 different industries ranging from one user to 500 users all over the world. It's tempting to have a really watered down homepage. It's just like, look at all these things we do. What Jason Cohen's post gave me the confidence to do is to actually speak to the right person, to the best person.
And the thing he explained was, if you think of ICPs as a bullseye, there's a bullseye in the middle without concentric rings around it. I've probably said this on the podcast before, so sorry if I'm boring the listener here, but the bullseye is someone who, all of your strengths, they care a lot about. And all of your weaknesses, they actually perceive as strengths. One of our weaknesses, we basically don't have reporting. If you want to see how much revenue you made or anything like, we don't have it.
Our ICP is someone who's like, I hate all the reporting and other CRMs. I just want to see my customer information. know, it's not, it's not, only do they not mind the weakness, it's actually a strength. That's the ICP. And then you go one ring outside of it and they're like, that is a weakness, but I don't care about it. I don't need reporting. That's fine. And then you go a ring outside of it and they're like, I would love the reporting, but it's more important to me that it's easy to use, whatever. And you know, you, the thing is all of these rings, as you go further out,
you are converting fewer and fewer of those people, but they're bigger and bigger rings. So you're actually getting a ton of your customers from these outer rings. But the point, one of the key points that really stood out to me in this blog post is the way you get those outer ring people is you have to tell them why to choose you. And it has to like by speaking to the inner ring bullseye people, you'll actually convert the outer ring people better.
because they'll be able to make a sober analysis and understand what's different about you and choose you despite your flaws rather than being like, so you're just another CRM. I don't know, next. Yeah, right. So even if you say we specialize in insurance CRM and we do group or individual insurance and we do group, that's a bad positioning, just bear with me. That might be better at getting the group customer potentially.
RICK (50:42.429)
You're just another insurance broker.
RICK (50:53.916)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying. This is that's cool. I tried to go into incognito and see the new messaging. I couldn't get it to pull up. I'd love to see it. It sounds great.
Tyler King (51:07.566)
It's doing pretty well on the A-B test, so we're probably gonna make it live in a week. I'll send it your way once I'm sure you can see it.
RICK (51:13.211)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I absolutely in the less annoying CRM promise it's really it's beating your A B test.
Tyler King (51:20.098)
I mean, in one of those ways where probably the difference is not statistically significant, will it end up winning or tying? I don't know. But even a tie, again, like when I do A-B tests, I'm just like, a tie means I get to pick which one I like better. So it's at least gonna tie.
RICK (51:27.261)
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
RICK (51:36.111)
Yeah. And, and do you have like, I mean, the thing you don't know from AB test is I guess you could watch the downstream conversions, but like, just because I'm assuming you're measuring based on convert, like first conversion, not like downstream funnel conversion. Yeah. It'd be interesting to like track, the cohorts across the entire life cycle. Like who actually ends up paying.
Tyler King (51:50.22)
Yeah,
Tyler King (51:56.854)
Yeah, we do that for some of our A-B tests. We're not going to for this one because again, I have pretty high conviction that I prefer this. So in this case, the A-B test is just to make sure we're not like shooting ourselves in the foot here. Even one weekend, it's pretty clear it's not worse. yeah. Yeah, I feel so good about it. just like in the early days of any company, you have a voice, you have an opinion.
RICK (52:03.421)
Mm.
RICK (52:11.119)
or not. Yeah. Cool. Man, that's awesome. That's exciting.
Mm-hmm.
Tyler King (52:25.57)
you you're a bit of a rebel. And then over time it kind of gets watered down. feel like this is kind of going back to the early days where we're like, no, like again, more than a spreadsheet, less than a CRM. We're like, we're not even a CRM. Don't even think of us as a CRM. I really liked that.
RICK (52:42.086)
I love it.
Tyler King (52:44.878)
Thank you. All right. You want to call it or do you have any quick things to... All right.
RICK (52:49.029)
Now let's call it. Let's call it. So that was a fine episode. Thank you.
Tyler King (52:53.25)
Yeah. Sorry to the listener that we're just going to keep talking about AI every single app. Sorry, one final thing. I was at Big Snow TinyConf a couple of weeks ago. A lot of fun like it always is, but normally there's a bunch of different topics and one person's talking about pricing and another's talking about churn. Every single conversation is AI and I kind of want to roll my eyes and be like, wow, enough already. But it's like, no, this is what matters right now. So anyway, we're going to keep talking about it.
RICK (52:57.189)
AI.
RICK (53:01.862)
Mmm.
RICK (53:19.677)
Um, yeah. And if, guess, uh, if there, if there's anyone out there listening that has opinions that you would like us to, to voice or debate, like I would love to hear from you. Um, like I, I, I'm, I'm any, any opinions on AI I'm open to. Like, I, I love talking about it right now. Um, if you'd like to review past topics and show notes, visit star blast.com. See you next time.
Tyler King (53:30.222)
Absolutely.
Tyler King (53:43.64)
See ya.