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Get Me to the Gray, presented by COJA Services Inc., is a podcast about the conversations we’re told we shouldn’t have. Hosted by journalist and author Paula Lehman-Ewing, the show brings people with fundamentally different ways of seeing the world into honest dialogue—where we name what divides us and keep talking anyway.
COJA Services Inc. works with mission-driven organizations and brands that are clear on their values but struggle to translate that clarity into public-facing language. We help teams align internal narratives, reduce confusion before it becomes mistrust, and translate complexity into public understanding without relying on scripts, rhetoric, or generic AI language that strips voice and judgment.
If you're in the greater Denver metro area, register for our LIVE events at tinyurl.com/COJAEvents
GMG-Ep10_The-Boys_Main
Jamie K: [00:00:00] Most episodes of Get Me to the Gray. Paula is the one asking the hard questions. Today it's my turn and I brought someone who's been making me uncomfortable in one way or another for nearly three decades. My name is Jamie Konegni. I'm the marketing director for COJA Services, and I brought with me today my good friend Jimmy Panopto.
Welcome Jimmy.
Jimmy: Thank you, Jamie. Excited to be here.
Jamie K: So Jimmy, I wanted to start with the moment, I think set the tone for our entire friendship.
Jimmy: Oh,
Jamie K: we were a freshman at CSU Uhhuh Westfall Hall.
Jimmy: Sure.
Jamie K: I had a squirt gun. I thought it would be hilarious to use it on Jimmy. I was 18. My judgment was what it was.
Jimmy, what do you remember about that?
Jimmy: I do remember giving a very clean ultimatum of, do not shoot me with that squirt gun. Don't shoot me with that squirt gun. Don't, or I'll do whatever. I don't know what the whatever was.
And I do remember a look of your processing, which was, well, now there's a boundary and I'm [00:01:00] not supposed to cross the line. So there was a moment of hesitation. And then there was, of course, now I'm. It's definitely gonna cross the line. 'cause that's what I you do. So then that happened and then from there, I don't know, I think you claim that I almost threw you out a window.
Jamie K: Oh, definitely. We, I
Jimmy: dunno if that's, I don't know if that's true.
Jamie K: Yeah, you were a large man and that's true. Uh, you did throw me around like a rag doll. Deservedly so. I will admit, um, again, I definitely had a shit eating grin on my face. You were wearing, I believe like a. A blue shirt that would, would see the, the water color on it, which is really what made you upset.
Jimmy: I don't remember all that, all that granular detail, but, okay. Yeah.
Jamie K: Yeah. Okay.
Jimmy: Well good catch. Yeah. That was fairly early on.
Jamie K: Yeah. Well, okay, so that was one day, more or less. Um, somehow we've maintained friendship ever since
Jimmy: Uhhuh
Jamie K: wedding kids life. We agree on most things that may make life good, so sports humor.
[00:02:00] Other things.
Jimmy: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Jamie K: Lots. It's when the conversation gets serious, then we really start to split. Yeah. And it splits pretty consistently.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Jamie K: So that's what I wanted to talk about today. Not this squirt gun, although. Maybe. Maybe there's a little in there, but the fact that two people can disagree pretty consistently, sometimes pretty hard, but still wanna have the conversation, still pick up the phone.
This show is called Get Me to the Gray because most of what's worth talking about, lives in the uncomfortable middle. Jimmy has been in one of my great spaces for a long time. So one thing I was reflecting on, I was trying to figure this out, was I didn't, I wasn't even really political until college, and so I don't know when I realized that you and I really weren't on the same page, like do you have any recollection of when that might have been?
Jimmy: Um, I remember you were living in Portland. I was living in Denver after college, specifically a speech from George W. Bush, and I know that we had disagreed during the run up to an election of, which would've been [00:03:00] in college. Yep. So we, we definitely uncovered somewhere in the later years of college. Yeah.
Jamie K: That's when I started getting into it. Yeah.
Jimmy: But the moment that I really, really can think about is I remember calling you as I was watching a speech from the Rose Garden. And you were very anti George W. Bush. And I remember reflecting on the fact that you, you know, had talked about him and maybe his unconventional communication style and that he didn't necessarily present well and when he was speaking from the Rose Garden, I remember a feeling of, and this has changed unfortunately, uh, but of embarrassment that that was the.
Person that represented in that moment, you know, our United States of America. And I remember calling you and saying, this is pretty painful to watch. So it was sort of a, like, you're right about a component of your significant concern for him. So yeah, that's one thing I remember.
Jamie K: And you were probably trying to talk me [00:04:00] off the ledge a little too.
I'm, I'm sure
Jimmy: I'm, I hope you didn't watch the speech. I don't know if I was watching it live or had had just seen a part of it prerecorded, but it was, you know, kind of, he kind of stumbled and mumbled through some of it and it was, uh, yeah. It wasn't a great moment.
Jamie K: Yeah. And I think, I think you alluded to that a little bit
looking back in history too, those are probably much simpler days that we would probably look back on more fondly, of course. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and again, this is probably an unfair question without the lack of prep I gave Jimmy. Um, but I would hope that I've changed over the past couple decades.
Jimmy: Yeah. I think that you, while still passionate, don't personalize parts of the conversation as much, and that's, that's. Part of what allows both of us to kind of talk through things where you feel one way, and I might feel a different way, that neither one of us gets so worked up, that [00:05:00] it's like, now I can only associate you with that issue and I focus on it and I'm so irritated and I can't let that go.
And so I think, I think there has been a component of you do recognize like, okay, I process this differently, meaning I do and you think a different way about it. But there is also an overall recognition. I think we started to talk about this, um, before we got on that, you know, there, there is a, a movement to the middle for both of us that has probably made us both more mild in our, in our foundational positions.
So maybe that's helped make it easier too.
Jamie K: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that for sure. And I think, uh, I think one of the things I've appreciated out of you over the years is the fact that. Again, I think both of us kind of have our core beliefs and our core values,
and I think it's, a lot of these conversations we've had have got us to the point where we understand how those aligned better because it wasn't coming from an emotional spot. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't coming from a [00:06:00] just, you know, anger of what I just heard or what I saw. Um, and definitely that was more on my side, I will admit For sure.
Um. Part of
it
Jimmy: was, and, and could, could have been mine too. You asked me about about you, like I'm sure there's been, I'd hope there's been some change or maturity in the many, many, many years that we've known each other. Um, that where there's been some improvement for me. Oh, for sure. And that I came from a place that was, you know,
Jamie K: absolutely.
That. I think what I'm not probably saying correctly is that I think you had a more emotional maturity or better emotional maturity at the beginning than I did. Um. And so your position hadn't, hasn't changed all that much, but I think your views and your values have been, have been strong. And that doesn't mean that they've held with a certain political identity, um, because you're just really holding to the values.
And I've always appreciated that out of you.
So I think [00:07:00] setting the stage here just a little bit more, um, again, we agree on most things I would say, but.
We can start a conversation pretty light. And while we haven't done that a lot recently there, there have been lot, many moments, I think in many situations where maybe it starts off 15 minutes of BSing and catching up and then we can get into a good solid and of really kind of getting deep into things.
Mm-hmm. And I think that's what I've really appreciated was that. It, we had a good back and forth and I learned things from you and I hope you would learn things from me as well. And I think that's why, just, just bringing you on made a lot of sense with okay, we're, we're trying to have a podcast to have to, to help people know that they can have those hard conversations and that the tension and that difficulty is the point.
Like it wouldn't be a fun conversation if it was just bland and we didn't have hard things to discuss. So, um. Yeah. Anyway, I, I wanted to [00:08:00] kind of set the stage with that. Mm-hmm. That this is something we've been doing. I think really, again, kind of looking back at college when, when I started kind of shifting a little bit more political and, um, really that, that started back then.
So I guess my question for you then is what do you think keeps us in that conversation when other people either would've stopped talking or just don't even have those conversations to begin with?
Jimmy: Yeah. I think recognition that both of us are more than the issue or the idea. To each other, right? When you're, you're genuine friends.
And we've all seen people around us, especially in recent years, where a singular issue, a, a person, a political figure, a topic of conversation is enough to make two people that have known each other a long time actually stop communicating and almo, and sometimes even hate each other. Like I've seen that in my life.
And I think that's the most puzzling thing in the world because you can't throw away all of that. A foundation of time that you have and common ground you have with somebody. So, um, I think [00:09:00] that we, that the recognition that we are, um, we align on a lot of things, even on the things we disagree with. The discovery, maybe for me, with many people was we don't really disagree on the thing as often as we disagree on the way to go about the thing.
Right. Right. And it doesn't, and it sometimes that's politics. Sometimes that's. Uh, raising kids or religion or anything in life, like if you really drill down and kind of reduce it to the simplest form, you'll find that both people kind of want the same thing, but one person thinks it should be, you know, I know we don't want to go probably too deep into any singular topic, so it does feel like it's the focus on, okay, well if we really wanna get to the same result, then okay, we found some common ground there and we kind of disagree along the way, but then.
Where through our conversation do we, do we pick things up. And I was thinking about the last time that we had one of those would've been the ride back from Fort Collins, uh, this fall, right? Yeah. Late [00:10:00] fall.
Jamie K: Yeah.
Jimmy: Which was probably not a great meeting of the minds because we are not college age anymore and after a football game and trying to spend time.
Drinking in Old Town Fort Collins the night before. It was, we were both a little foggy. Yes. So I'm glad there was no podcast
Jamie K: sharing non ventilated hotel room together that helped.
Jimmy: Yeah. I'm very glad that there was no recording of the pod of the, uh, of the podcast in the car on the way down. But I know that we covered a lot of the kind of topical events and, you know, places that we, we land that we agree with each other and spirited on moments and components of that, that we.
Don't agree with, but maybe it's that we keep talking past just the point. We do occasionally arrive on a thing where I know you feel a way and I feel a way, and that's sort of it, but there's something around that topic that is, okay, there's a reasonable point to the common ground that [00:11:00] we do have somewhere near it and, and maybe, maybe a focus on, on that, you know, we should.
We should, uh, uh, think this through a little more and, um, and market this.
Jamie K: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jimmy: Um, I think that's the, I think that might be the, the gist of what we do is that, yes, there's the, the, the topic that can be somewhat contentious that maybe neither one of us will really change, but there can also be times where maybe one or both of us have changed a little bit, and a flexibility and a willingness to.
To do both. Like you can feel a way that I don't agree with and I can feel a way, and it doesn't mean we're still not friends. And sometimes you can say something that makes me reflect and think a little differently about the place that I was dug in.
Jamie K: Sure.
Jimmy: So if all those things happen, then it gives us the, uh, the possibility of kind of getting through it and hopefully learning.
And to your point earlier about, well, what's the point of talking to just people you agree with? That's the most fascinating thing to me about what seems to be happening, happening in [00:12:00] societally. What could be more boring? And you mentioned the water gun, you found a boundary because that fits with your personality.
You knew there was a boundary which you then had to cross. And for me, very often verbally, it's the spark, the conversation, the borderline debate that I do feel, um, tempted to sort of challenge. And so that's fun. I think we both like that a little bit. And I just couldn't imagine just always talking to somebody going Yeah, Uhhuh.
Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I agree exactly what you said. Well then what are we doing? We both think the same thing. Why are we even talking to each other about everything?
Jamie K: Yeah, exactly. I, I, I agree. And I think that's probably part of what, um, got us to be guys such good friends is I'm drawn to that too.
I mean, I, I really do enjoy that. Um, my cousin Brett, we, we just don't talk as much. He's got younger kids and like. Just different life stages. But man, we had really good conversations. He was a college Republicans guy. I love talking about that stuff. Um, I even love having, you know, just the guy debates where we talk about, [00:13:00] gosh, who was the greatest quarterback of all time.
I, you know, there's stupid debates. No one can actually win, but it is really fun to have those conversations. And yeah, I mean, if you want to have. A frictionless environment where someone disagrees with you, then yeah, I guess ChatGPT or Claude are gonna be your best friends for life and that's great and they'll tell you how amazing you are.
But like, I think also just our choices in women and our wives, like they both challenge the heck out of both of us and I think we do appreciate that. So I think that there's something in there too with understanding that the friction really does bring out the best in in us and it, and it makes those relationships stronger.
Jimmy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jamie K: Um,
Jimmy: good point, good point. But I'm suddenly realizing that something that I say that might be recorded about my spouse, I do find myself, well go with the positives on
Jamie K: this.
Jimmy: No, it is positive. I do like the spark, but
Jamie K: yes. But she's
Jimmy: always right. She's always
right.
Jimmy: Yeah. Okay, good.
Jamie K: We landed, we were on a, we landed in a good spot.
Absolute. Got it. Okay. Um, is there anything that, [00:14:00] um, I do, or I know you and Jack have have similar conversations. Is there anything that. That me or or other people that you have these conversations with that that make it easier? Or do we kind of already cover that where it's more around kind of having that mutual respect and really having that background and understanding who each other are from the beginning?
Jimmy: I think there's, I think we are all a little bit tentative as we become adults knowing, or we should be, maybe because we want to be respectful of people's feelings and knowing that. If we don't know what might, they might feel incredibly passionate about. Sure. That could be the line that you cross in conversation when you state an opinion.
And it's kind of like, look, we're talking about this through the optics of politics, but it's, it's a lot of things. It's, it's technology. It's ai, it's Right. EVs, it's, it's all those things.
Jamie K: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Jimmy: And some of it happens to align politically and some of it flip flops and puts us on different sides of issues.
And I think the recognition for me is, is [00:15:00] understanding that like. There are a lot of things I like to talk about, but there aren't a ton of things that are so polar that I'm so a hundred percent rigidly convicted on. But when you run into somebody like that, like you want to try to uncover it. So when you said what makes it easier deep down, I don't think there's anything in that category that I could see.
There's any category or any topic that I'd say one thing and you, and it would just be like, deal breaker. I can't talk about it. How dare you say that? And so. You, you need a, and likewise, you need a reasonable dance partner that you feel like, okay, I may sometimes, I'm sure I've got you more agitated than I meant to, or vice versa.
But you know that in the end it's like, fine, we'll still go have a beer and, and criticize other universities in the state or
Jamie K: Right.
Jimmy: You know, whatever
Jamie K: that next thing is. Yeah. And I think it's, uh, that's a good point. I think there's a recognition of a lack of boundaries that you and I have, whereas.
Meeting someone new [00:16:00] or maybe not knowing someone as well. You don't know where those boundaries necessarily are. And it takes a little bit of trust to build that up to understand what that boundary is. Right. Um, 'cause you're right, I think there's things that you and I have said that would come outta context with other people that would get them very upset.
And I think context matters so much in all of this, where understanding all of it and understanding our values, understanding. You know, where we're coming from on things. I think then people would maybe not get so upset about it. But without all of that history that we've had, it's really hard to, to get to that point.
Jimmy: Mm-hmm.
Jamie K: Um, so, okay. I think, I think a lot of that is really separating the person from kind of those different positions, having a certain amount of curiosity in how each other think. 'cause knowing that baseline of, of values as well. Um. But then also I think just a little bit of it is just relationships where [00:17:00] we kind of let things breathe for a while too.
And then, um, when we do talk, it's kind of fun to kind of get back to those areas. Mm-hmm. But it's, um, we can kind of let that breathe a little bit. Mm-hmm. Which I think is helpful.
Jimmy: Mm-hmm.
Jamie K: Um, so you kind of brought this up before, and I, I did want to bring up one topic, um, because it was a, it was a spot where I was reflecting where I was like, this is a, a spot.
Jimmy that I did actually recognize more of his position. Um, and that was on guns. And I think as me, for me being very anti-gun, not owning a gun, um, thinking that kind of all assault rifles should be banned and things like that. We have, and this was more recently, I think this was even like the summer of just last year.
Um, my recognition, I, I think, was realizing that I just didn't. I wasn't educated enough about the, the position or the law that was going on in Colorado. You were very educated on that. And so for me to make a blanket statement Got you. Very riled [00:18:00] up. And I think what was good about that though was then you explaining this to me in a way that, oh, okay, like just banning assault rifle or doing these broader things doesn't make a lot of sense because of these different nuances.
And we don't have to get into the specifics on this. Mm-hmm. But I think where. I really appreciated that, was just understanding that wow, there is so little I know about this topic. So for me to make statements like that, I have to be actually more careful myself. And I'm just wondering on your side if there's anything like similar to that or, um, if that's even something you recognized.
Jimmy: Um, no, I can't think of anything from that specific conversation, but I can think of a, of a, of a greater kind of core belief of whatever. I guess we could, we could throw an umbrella term and say personal accountability and that in terms of, and it, we see it and [00:19:00] it manifests in a lot of places. Right. And it's, it's.
It's safety net, it's the government should take care of this. It's, it's, my personal safety should be taken care of by this or that. And, and there are places where we align there and places that we don't. And the, the central point that you helped me realize was I was really thinking of it, it oversimplified it into a race or a, or a, everybody has the same starting point and then they're responsible for kind of getting through this process.
Whatever it is, through, through life, through education, through anything. And, and a very simple, while seemingly obvious, um, observation or point that you shared was that people don't all start at the same place. They don't all have the same ecosystem or environment that they, that they grow up in, that they're around.
And I know that's, that's all things that we know, but it's easy to discount that and think back. To each of our individual lives and go, [00:20:00] oh, well, there was that moment where something could have really gone wrong, but I had a parent or a sibling or somebody to help me through that time, and there are people who don't have that same structure.
And so it was kind of a, a, a big aha moment for me was I was on one side of that conversation, realizing I'd really oversimplified it in a, just in a dumb, dumb way. And so that was the big, the big takeaway for me. That's, that's the kind of the aha I can, I can recall.
Jamie K: Nice. Yeah, no, I think, um, I think that's been really where I see the value in these conversations is having those realizations and talking through, um, I mean, I think one of the things that drives me nuts about just political conversations in general is a, well, they think this or a, you know, kind of a broad paintbrush of, well, that, that group and because you're, this might means you think this.
And I think one of the things I appreciated with the two of us has been like, well, that's like Jimmy, my [00:21:00] conservative friend, does not believe that. Um, and, and there are so many more nuances where yeah, we, we cross the lines on both sides. And I think, I think most people are actually like that. Um, it's just easier to get into your camp and to really cloak yourself or, or guard yourself with a, with a label and says, well, I believe this.
And so then they must believe that, um. And so I guess where, where I'm getting with that question is understanding that there, there have to be boundaries if we want to have honest conversations with people, but how can we get to a spot where it's not just two lifelong friends that that're having these conversations, but people that maybe, um, don't know each other as well, can have these.
Like, I know you're a very social person. You, you, uh, you talk to a lot of different people. I mean, are there moments where you've had more of those kind of breakthroughs with people you don't really know? And are there any [00:22:00] kinda insights or, or thoughts you have around just really getting to more of those conversations?
Jimmy: I think, I think so. I think, um, I think it's, um, there's room to focus on. If you can step back and look a little bit more at kind of the macro at the overall. Versus just the, well, you said something that made me feel a certain way and I, and I know you feel, and then, and now grenades start getting lobbed back and forth, and that, that instinctively people then climb into their kind of conversational foxholes with, well, I'm just waiting for you to say something so I can attack and, and I think
Jamie K: Not listening at all.
Jimmy: Yeah, not listening at all. And, and again, I mean, through conversations with, with you and, and parts of our friend group. P um, that have been kind of thought provoking that have come from different perspectives. Are the founda the key to me recognizing that I want to have those conversations because there is room for me to maybe change something, I think, and maybe for them to [00:23:00] change something they think, and that it's also fun to have a conversation through the lens of disagreement.
And recognize that even in that disagreement, that there are all these sub points or even maybe main points that you really align perfectly on and agree with. And I know that's, you know, I've kind of already mentioned it, but that more often than not, it's the, it's the belief or the methodology in how you go about getting there or how it's presented that people disagree with.
When the, the core thing. More often you kind of line up on, and of course there's exceptions to that.
Jamie K: Yeah.
Jimmy: But, um, but yeah, I think the good news about the conversations with friends from my perspective and enjoying conversations with friends and friends of friends is that it, it does prep you to engage in a way that you know, you otherwise may not have been prepared to with people you really don't know or know less, aside from the point that I made about.
Okay. But if, if you're going in cold, then you, you do have to be cautious of like, what's the [00:24:00] thing that could really set them off? And then, you know, sometimes it's a coworker, it's somebody that is sort of in your life and in your space, and you don't want to create that environment where now you know, you've created a mortal enemy for the rest of your, uh, your existence or, or time at a, at a, at a company or the like.
Jamie K: So, yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a great point. I think, I think it's probably almost. Maybe not impossible, but very difficult on a one-on-one situation to get to a spot like that. But I do think there is something with kind of the safety in the space and where I was kind of, again, shortly reflecting on my lack of prepara preparation here was our, uh.
Mile High Man of the Year event. Mm-hmm. Um, and the original, where it was a pretty disparate group of guys and I remember Mike Perry actually commenting on Sky and just being like, that is one of the most interesting people I've ever met. And [00:25:00] to get those two types of people into a room was actually pretty cool.
Like, and I think where, um, maybe one side got more out of it than the other side was really recognizing Wow, there. Are so many different life experiences out there. And having that curiosity and actually wanting to learn more about that, I think was really, really valuable. Um, but what we had created from the beginning was more of that space to feel comfortable, safe.
Right. And you could all like just, we're all just hanging out, right? There's nothing here. Kind of similar to Get Me to the Gray There's no gotcha moments. It's just a let's have this have a good time. Right. In the meantime, have conversations, get to know different guys.
I think those key themes again, uh, curiosity being open, um, having a, having an understanding too that we're all in this together and that we all really generally have the same kind of goals, right.
I think we wanna have safety, right? We wanna have a, a healthy family. If we can all start at those kind of basic levels, I think that that helps a [00:26:00] lot. But then wherever you can create those spaces for other people, and I think, uh, that's a, that's a spot where you actually really excel as well. Um, I think, I think you, you bring in a lot of, a lot of interesting and good people too, and you've got a, a good, uh, friend group.
So I think those are the kind of lessons I would take away. But I was. Just curious if you had anything else to add to that or anything that you would, uh, uh, include?
Jimmy: I think the most, I think the, the simplest and the dumbest thing we can do is immediately categorize people around us. People we see in the media by the thing that is different about them from us and the one thing we don't agree with, and then make a decision that they're irredeemable because there's one thing we don't agree on.
And if you take a step back and realize there's probably a lot of things that you do agree on, and you might even find passions, hobbies, you know, whatever it is, right from, from every area of your life, friends, family members. The moment [00:27:00] you just categorize them by the thing, you can't stand then, then you've lost, because you're missing all of the things that could be a, a really lovely sort of common ground, common bond, um, relationship.
So that's, that's kind of my observation. I don't know. That felt pretty vague, but
Jamie K: No, that was great.
Jimmy: You said, you said keep it to thir to 30 minutes. So I think, you know, I have another 15 minutes on that point, but I'm gonna cut it short.
Jamie K: No, I think that was great. I think this is perfect. Um, well, again, thank you very much for, uh, agreeing to do this and, uh, appreciate the coffee and, uh, thank you.
Jimmy: Yeah, man, thanks for having me. It was cool.
Jamie K: All right.