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Rhode Island School of Design President Crystal Williams in conversation with thought leaders, art and design luminaries, alumni, and other friends of RISD discussing what shapes how they live in and experience the world.
Hello, and welcome to It Starts With a Question. I'm your host, Crystal Williams, President of Rhode Island School of Design. I'm a poet, essayist, and daughter of Detroit who's curious about how others experience the world and how their unique experiences shape how they move through it. Throughout my life, people have often told me that they feel like they can tell me anything. I think that's because at Root, I seek connection and deep understanding.
Crystal Williams:Maybe it's the poet in me, but I've always been most interested in learning about the why over the what or how so we can crack open the core of the matter and get to the heart of what makes us who we are. For me, it starts with a question so we might learn what else do we dream for this human project. Today I'm chatting with award winning children's book author and illustrator Grace Lin, the daughter of parents who immigrated from Taiwan and settled the family in rural Upstate New York. As a member of the only Asian American family at her school, Grace longed to blend in rather than stand out. So rather than study the hard sciences as her parents wished, when it came time to attend college, Grace chose to attend RISD to study illustration.
Crystal Williams:After graduation and a short stint at a giftware company designing mugs and t shirts, she took a leap of faith to pursue her dream of being a children's book author and illustrator. After the publication of her first book, The Ugly Vegetables in 1999, Grace has been writing stories and picture books for young people ever since. Grace's books often feature children of Chinese descent, not only to showcase her heritage, but also to include aspects of Taiwanese and Chinese culture. She's earned numerous awards, including Newbery and Caldecott medals. During our conversation, Grace and I had the opportunity to reflect on her journey, coming into her own as an artist.
Crystal Williams:So it's so good to see you again.
Grace Lin:So good to see you too.
Crystal Williams:Thank you for coming back. Thanks. So before we even really get started, I'm fascinated by these purple streaks in the middle. Like, do you always have some sort of color in your hair?
Grace Lin:Yeah, recently. Think in the last couple of years, it's been like that. I think this one is supposed to be cherry chestnut, but it had pink in it before, so I think now it's kind of turned
Crystal Williams:into purple. It's turned into purple. So it's matching. So I'm always interested when people do sort of creative things in their hair or on their bodies. Has this been a...
Crystal Williams:You said the last couple years with the hair, but have you always sort of been creative with the way you present to the world?
Grace Lin:Oh, gosh. That's a really interesting question. I don't know if it's been so much creative, but I think I've always been very conscious of how I look to the world.
Crystal Williams:Oh, yeah.
Grace Lin:I mean, that that goes all the way back to childhood being the old Asian as... Being the only Asian in the area. So I think I've always been conscious of that, and I've, you know, and I like to I like to... I guess if there's things in... Like, I like to paint with bright colors, so I like to wear bright colors.
Grace Lin:So I like to for when I first colored my hair pink, the just the streaks, I had this whole idea of like, pink was a color that when I was younger, I had to stay because it was too girly.
Crystal Williams:Reclaiming something that felt lost to you. Yes. Interesting. So you've talked a good deal about being the only Asian kid when you were little. And I know that part of your practice as an artist, actually, I mean, percent of your practice as an artist really stems from that experience of being the only?
Crystal Williams:Probably
Grace Lin:everything, almost everything. Yeah. So I grew up in Upstate New York Yeah. Where my family was one of the very few Asian families in the area. So that meant I was the only Asian girl in my class in elementary school year after year after year.
Grace Lin:And that really shaped me for better and worse. And and I think it's still... In some ways, it still shapes me. So... And I guess that's...
Grace Lin:You could see that in... That's... Pretty much all of my books feature Asian or Asian American characters. And so much of that is because that's what I really, really hungered for when I was younger. I really wanted to see myself in a book.
Grace Lin:I guess I should backtrack a little bit because being the only Asian in my elementary school, I have this kind of really weird sense of identity. And it was kind of strange that everybody knew who I was. I was the Asian girl.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. You're the Asian girl.
Grace Lin:Yeah. The Asian girl. But nobody knew who I was at the same time.
Crystal Williams:Like, that was all I was. You were seen in Lindsay.
Grace Lin:Yes. And it's this very strange feeling of everyone knowing who you are, but nobody knowing who you are and nobody caring who you are because that was all you would be, you know? Mhmm. And and I just longed so much to see or to see somebody like me who was kinda, like, fully realized as a person. And because I had this weird sense of isolation when I was younger, I found a lot of comfort in books.
Grace Lin:That's where I felt like I could... I really... Books... All the characters in books felt like my friends. Right?
Grace Lin:Mhmm. And so I was reading and reading all the time, but there was no one who looked like me in books. And that's really what I hungered for was a friend that looked like me, a friend who would be fully realized, a fully realized person like me.
Crystal Williams:But Grace, I just want to pause for a second. I want to get to the fully realized self and what that means in books and reflection and so forth. But this question about people seeing you as only Asian, but not actually seeing you in a moment when, as kids, I resonate with this, right? Like this feeling of being invisible on some level, like the fundamentals of oneself being invisible. Were your fundamentals clear to you even?
Crystal Williams:Because that's an added layer of complexity, if not.
Grace Lin:Yeah. And I think, honestly, I don't think they were.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. Yeah.
Grace Lin:And, yeah, I could, I feel like, when I was younger, because I didn't see anyone who looked like me in my peers, only my family. And I didn't see anybody on TV or in movies and books.
Crystal Williams:Was this the 70s, 80s?
Grace Lin:Yeah. So there's nobody that looked like me in my community. There was nobody that looked like me in TV. There's nobody that looked like me anywhere. Like, I didn't feel like I was fully realized, I guess.
Grace Lin:I'm using that as terms, but I'm not sure if that's the correct term. But I do know that for a long time, I tried really hard not to be Asian.
Crystal Williams:Oh, what did that look like? What did that mean Yeah. For
Grace Lin:So like, I think for, you know, for a long... But honestly, that was kind of... So, I I was born in, '74. And so like, and this is a completely different time than now. When I grew up, my parents were actually approached by the school system.
Grace Lin:This is what I'm saying, it's a different time. And they're like, you know, don't speak to them in Chinese. It will delay their language skills. And so my parents never spoke to us in Chinese. So we never learned Chinese or Taiwanese.
Grace Lin:And like, my dad would see what the neighbors' cars were like, and he would go out and buy the same car. So it was very much the time of trying to fit in. Assimilation. Assimilate. Yeah.
Grace Lin:And so many times I just tried to pretend that I wasn't Asian. One thing that I often talk about, is how everyone in the community kind of went along with this idea. Like, let's pretend that she's not Asian. Because I remember when I was in fifth grade, I had answered a question in the classroom and I was, I, one of the class, one of my classmates was like, Oh, she only knows that because she's chai. And then the teacher stopped him.
Grace Lin:It's a no, no, no. Know, we don't... She actually didn't say anything. She says, No, no, no. And she just kind shook her head.
Grace Lin:And then she moved on with the lesson. But everybody in the classroom knew what he was going to say. He was going to say, She only knows that because she's Chinese. But everybody knew what the teacher was saying. It's like, We don't talk about race.
Grace Lin:We don't mention that Grace is Asian. We don't mention that she's Chinese. We don't talk about it. And so, you know, looking back as an adult, I realized, you know, there was no malice or anything in this. It was the time the time where, like, we're gonna make color blind kids, kids that don't see race, and how that didn't really work out the way...
Grace Lin:Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Like how...
Grace Lin:Yeah. Like I said, there's no malice. But like, you know, as the only Asian child in that classroom, I didn't feel colorless. You know, in fact, I kind of felt like, Oh, I have this secret that everybody knows. It's not really a secret, but it's so shameful that we don't talk about it.
Grace Lin:Like, the fact that I'm Asian is so... Such a bad thing. We better not even mention it. And so that was kind of this idea of like, oh, I'm going to pretend that I'm not Asian. I'm just going pretend that I look like everybody else in my class.
Grace Lin:And I did a really, really good job pretending. Another anecdote I often talk about is like in fifth grade there was a... We were putting on the the school was putting on a play Return to Oz. And so all the girls really wanted to be Dorothy and I really wanted to be Dorothy too. And so, at the schoolyard, we would all...
Grace Lin:All the girls who wanted to be Dorothy would practice, singing, Somewhere Over the Rainbow over and over again, you know, hoping to get the part for you to play. And then, on the day of the audition, all the girls who were trying out, we were all practicing that one last time. And I remember turning to the girl next to me and saying, hey. Today's the audition. Do you think they might choose me to be Dorothy?
Grace Lin:And she looked at me and she's like, but you can't be Dorothy. Dorothy's not Chinese. Yeah. And it was like this, like like, slap in the face. But it wasn't...
Grace Lin:What's so interesting when I look back at that is that I wasn't really... I wasn't angry at her or I didn't feel hurt by what she said in, like like, I wasn't like, oh, that was so mean. Instead, I felt really stupid. Like, I felt like, oh, she's so right. How who do I...
Crystal Williams:How could how could I have even imagined?
Grace Lin:That I could have gotten this part, you know, like, or how, like, I'm so dumb. Why didn't I remember that? You know, like that there's no way I would have gotten that. So,
Crystal Williams:this is what breaks my heart for you, for little you. No, for little you. And I recognize that, like the duality. I mean, Du Bois talks about the sort of double consciousness, right? How one operates in one sort of space and then one operates in another space and having to carry that.
Crystal Williams:And there's, you know, there are tropes all over art, right, about this. And for you then this turns into, because in your house, if I remember, your parents brought in these sort of Chinese fables and you, the artist, the budding artist, were like, don't like these images are fab. And so at what point, because I'm, what I'm fascinated by... I'm fascinated by the whole thing, but partially what I'm fascinated by is I I hear you not interpreting that the people in your surroundings thought about Chinese people in derogatory terms, that this was not a derogatory thing to be. It just was a different thing, and you were trying to not to be that.
Grace Lin:Yeah. I think to me back then, different was derogatory, you know, like...
Crystal Williams:But the the but the Chinese part of it was not the thing. It was just the difference was the thing. Yeah. Got it.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Yeah. I think that was that was my takeaway, was just being different was really something to be... Avoided? Avoided, ashamed of, perhaps, you know?
Crystal Williams:So that was your takeaway then? Yes. Is that still your takeaway now?
Grace Lin:You know, I think I think there, you know, there was a kind of childish naivete about that, where I felt like back then it was just being different. And now I see, looking back, I can parse the subtle racism that was underneath. It was not just being different. It wasn't just like, I wear glasses and you don't wear glasses. You know, it was it was much more subtler and a little more insidious than that.
Grace Lin:But I would say as a child, I took it very much as like different, bad, you know, not not the other subtle things, which now looking back, I do see, you know, the, which is, kind of painful.
Crystal Williams:So you get these fables from your parents. You look at the artwork. Uh-huh. You're like, you've got this reality that you grew up with, which is this visible, invisible, this undercurrent of erasure. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:And you decided somehow at some point to fill the gap.
Grace Lin:Yeah. So, gosh, let me backtrack to the fable, sir, because I think I need to give a shout out to my mom about that. Yeah. So, as I said, I really kind of rejected my Asian heritage. And when I hit about, I think about sixth grade, my mom suddenly realized, oh, I think, I think this
Crystal Williams:is
Grace Lin:an an issue issue. Here. Yeah. And so, she started trying to teach me all about our Asian heritage. Unfortunately, I think it was a little too late because I was like, no, no, no.
Grace Lin:I don't want anything to with that. I don't want to learn Chinese. I don't want to do any of those things. And so she realized that if I was ever going to learn anything about our Asian heritage, she was going have to sneak it in. And she saw that I liked books.
Grace Lin:She saw at the time I was really into fairy tales because I loved the beautiful illustrations and the dresses and all those things. She went out and she got about six to 12 Chinese fairy tale and fable books, Chinese stories that had been translated into English. And she put them on the bookshelf in the living room because she knew if she gave them to me, I'd be like, I don't want that. So she just put them there. And she hoped that because I love books so much that-
Crystal Williams:That she would find them. Very clever.
Grace Lin:Yes, very clever. That's why I feel like I have to give that shout out
Crystal Williams:to-
Grace Lin:Thank you, mom. Thank you. It worked. And I did find the books and I did read up every single one of them. But as know, these books were not really well produced.
Grace Lin:They were English translations of Chinese stories. So the writing was very plain. They were printed on this cheap paper, and they just had these kind of like plain black and white illustrations on them that were not very thoughtful, you know. And when you compare that to these beautiful European fairy tale books I was looking at, like the Edmund Du Lacs, the, you know, the Arthur Rackhams that were like these gorgeous, lush illustrations and like the gold edges and things like that, and then you compare them to like these cheap paperback Chinese storybooks, you could see why I wasn't really impressed with these Chinese books. And also, I think it kind of reinforced this idea I had that my Asian culture was not as good as this Western culture that was all around me.
Grace Lin:And so that was something that kind of stayed with me. And so I loved books. I loved fairy tale books. And I, like I said, I love the illustration. So I was like, I want to be a fairy tale illustrator.
Grace Lin:I want to illustrate Sleeping Beauty. I want to illustrate Cinderella, you know? And that love of books and creating illustrations stayed with me. And that's actually the whole reason I came to RISD, the whole reason I majored in illustration. I wanted to be that kind of illustrator.
Grace Lin:But as time went on, you know, a lot of things happened here at RISD, lot of things happened in my life. And I started realizing, gosh, all those feelings I had about my Asian heritage, how kind of wrong headed they were, that my Asian heritage was actually not something to be ashamed of. It was actually something that was quite precious and something, that was something really wonderful and lovely and something that, deserved to be like, heralded, not not tucked away and under the bed. And so I I started trying to find connections to my Asian heritage. And I had so few connections to my Asian heritage because I had disdained it so much when I was younger.
Grace Lin:And the two strongest connections I had to my Asian heritage was food because of what we ate, and those
Crystal Williams:very Those fairy tales that you had scoffed at.
Grace Lin:Yes, exactly. I remembered them. Because that was my tenuous thread, I really clung to it and I made that thread stronger, stronger, stronger, making it into a real bond. And you can see that in a lot of my books. And you can see that, like, in probably my most popular book, Where the Mountain Meets the Moon, which is kind of like a retelling of all these Asian fables and fairy tales.
Grace Lin:And that book, to harken back to what we're talking about, I worked really, really hard to make that book as beautiful as possible. Like, even though it's a novel, it has full color illustrations in it. You know, I talked... We paid attention to like the font and the page numbers and every little detail, the kind of paper. And it was all because of those cheap Chinese fairy tale books.
Grace Lin:I remembered how when I looked at those cheap Chinese fairy tale books, and I like, oh, these are no good. And I didn't want any kid who took my book that were based on those same stories to feel that same way. And so I really try with all of my books, but especially the ones that are based on these, Chinese fables or these Chinese folk tales. I really try to make them feel like something precious.
Crystal Williams:To elevate it.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Like a treasure so that when, when kids read it, they're like, oh,
Crystal Williams:this is something special, you know, like this is something, valuable. At what point do you begin to recognize that the creative endeavor that you've undertaken as a profession, that the, that your, that what you are doing is filling a gap or is serving a purpose, is being of service to others. I mean, you didn't, I assume you didn't go, actually, I don't know if I should assume it. I mean, thought is that probably you start trying to answer a question for yourself or solve a problem for yourself, but then there becomes a point, doesn't there, when you begin to realize like, oh, I'm actually, this is actually impacting other people.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I start doing, books with Asian American characters in them, mainly to fulfill my own personal desire, to reclaim my own heritage, to tell my own story, to make it feel like, it seemed like I existed in this world, and people who looked like me existed. But honestly, it was a very uphill battle to get these kinds of books published. You know, my first book was published in 1999.
Grace Lin:And I remember going to publishing companies before then that and showing them my artwork and meeting... This is back when... So there's no email, there's no internet, We're there's no
Crystal Williams:old enough that a cell phone was like, what?
Grace Lin:Yeah. So what you would do, is that you would call up the publisher. You would call up the publisher. You would make a meeting, five to ten minute meeting with an editor, go to New York, meet the editor in the lobby. You wouldn't even get to go up to the office.
Grace Lin:The editor would come down, meet you in the lobby, hand them your portfolio, and they would flip through it. And if they liked your work, they would take your card and say, thanks, and bring it back up. And this is... And you would do the rounds, you know? And like, I remember...
Crystal Williams:Wait, wait, wait, Were you doing that by yourself?
Grace Lin:Yes. That was a lot of chutzpah. Honestly, it took a... I'm making a long story short, but, like, I graduated. I I worked for a couple years at a giftware company, like, a a giftware company.
Grace Lin:You know those t shirts that say, like, world's best dad? So I worked at a giftware company, did all these things. And I actually, I actually, almost gave up on being a children's book author and illustrator, but, I actually got laid off from that job. And because that actually was a great thing for me because getting laid off, was like, you know, didn't... I don't want to make World's Best Dad t shirts from the rest of my life.
Grace Lin:I wanted to be an illustrator. This is my chance. And so it was kind of like this desperation and that it... I don't know if it... I think for me, and we can talk about this later, is like, I don't know if I have so much courage as so much desperation.
Grace Lin:So that pushes me. It's so... I feel like I was really desperate at that point. And I was like, this is... I could feel that this was my chance.
Crystal Williams:There was a, it was an inflection point. Yeah. I either am going to do it or I'm not. Or I'm not gonna do it. And the not doing it is world's greatest dad.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. And that's the worst.
Grace Lin:Yes.
Crystal Williams:Got it.
Grace Lin:And so I was like, so I gotta do it. So I did it, and I was awkward. I was terrible. I remember stuttering on the phone like, Ah, can I? I'm coming in.
Grace Lin:Can you meet? And so... You know... You gotta do it. And these editors met with you.
Grace Lin:There's... So so many of them were so kind. But as I was talking about... I remember multiple times I would show them my art, many of them... Many of the pieces featuring my family and Asian characters.
Grace Lin:And many times the editors would say, Oh, I like your work, but I already have an Asian author.
Crystal Williams:Because we can only have one.
Grace Lin:Yes, we can only... We already have an Asian author, so we don't need you. And it was like this really like, oh gosh, I have to find the publisher that doesn't have their Asian author yet, or or their Asian author's retiring or something like that. So it was this kind of really uphill battle. So when I got that first book published, it was with a small publisher.
Grace Lin:And the editor of that book, it's The Ugly Vegetables, the editor of The Ugly Vegetables, super wonderful editor, such a kind person. He said, Oh, I really like your, your first book. We're so happy with it. Do you have any ideas for a second book? And I said, Yes, I do.
Grace Lin:And I said, I have this idea about my younger sister Kai Kai going through the seasons. And he's like, Oh, that sounds great. But I don't think you should do a book with an Asian character for your second book.
Crystal Williams:Interesting.
Grace Lin:And I said, Oh, why not? And he's like, Well, lots of different reasons. And you know, when I tell this story, people are kind of horrified, but I really want to preface this by saying he was looking out for me.
Crystal Williams:He was trying to, if I had to guess, trying to expand your reach.
Grace Lin:Yes.
Crystal Williams:And not pigeonhole you.
Grace Lin:Yes, exactly. Like he, so he's like, I don't think you should do an Asian character because, you know, Asian girl character, number one, you know, I think maybe you should do a boy character because, you know, that'll explain. And I think you should make this character Caucasian because that way the book will have more reach. People will realize that this book is for everyone, you know? Also, he said, the worst thing is you just came out with THE UGLY VEGETABLS, which featured two Asian characters, and that's fine for your first book.
Grace Lin:But if your second book comes out and it's also Asian characters, then people are going to just call you a multicultural author and illustrator, and you don't want that. I was like, God forbid. And I was like, what is that? And of course, multi back now we call them diverse authors. But back then, that was the phrase, the terminology was multicultural.
Grace Lin:And that meant, you know, I'd be an Asian American author illustrator. That's all I did. That's all my books who my books are for. It would always be like for this very, very niche audience. I mean, have to remember, this is like 1999.
Grace Lin:You know, for the for children's books, it was unheard of to consider a book with a marginalized character hit the bestseller list. Or in fact, whenever there's a book with a marginalized character, publishers used to try their best to like hide it. Like it would be like a silhouette, like a field of flowers, And you so like to fool the readers into not knowing that this was a a marginalized character. So so he he was really trying to look out for me and, like, so I could have, like, this career in children's books. But it was really kind of a disturbing realization.
Grace Lin:And I remember thinking, oh gosh, I don't know if I want to be pigeonholed. And I remember trying very hard to break out of doing Asian American books, like do books on animal characters, you know, and all these things. And your question was like, when did I kind of make that switch and to embrace this Asian American label and to create Asian American books? And it was not a... It wasn't really a switch.
Grace Lin:It was like this really slow, slow kind of realization. Because I did these books with animal characters, and I would do these books about monkeys and hippos and things like that. And I remember I would go to these book signings, you know, and I would go to book events or And the people who came up to me were never there for my animal books. It was always
Crystal Williams:these
Grace Lin:Asian families who would come up to me, usually a little Asian girl hugging the book. And then, I remember once there was a woman, a mother, obviously an Asian mother who had me sign her book and she looked at me with like tears in her eyes and she said, thank you so much for making this book. I've looked so long and hard for a book like this for my daughter. And it was that over and over again that I started thinking like, oh, gosh, the books that are having the most impact are not the animal books. They're actually the Asian books.
Grace Lin:And then I started thinking about myself and thinking like, these Asian books would have made a huge impact on myself too. And honestly, when I was really, really honest with myself, it was like the Asian books were the ones that meant the most to me too. I was just doing these animal books so I wouldn't be pigeonholed, I wouldn't be so I wouldn't be these this multicultural author and illustrator. But if I was really honest, the ones that mattered the most to me were the Asian books too. So I was like, I think I just have to embrace it.
Crystal Williams:Can I, I wanna, I just wanna stop for a moment and pivot to this question about honesty and art? Yeah. Right? Because, you know, I deal with a lot of young people. You know, they're 19, they're 20, maybe 22.
Crystal Williams:And so the world we grew up in is not the world they grew up in, but the question, and it's good history, think, it's important, because we still live in a world in which erasure is a thing, right? And right now it's called book banning and it's called anti DEI and all of that. But I think the other question about as artists, how important is it for us to be honest with ourselves about our motivations, about our talent, about, you know, all of the things. So you said sort of in passing, you sort of quipped, well, when I was honest with myself, but that's not an easy thing to do. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:Right? This can be very painful. So can you just talk a little bit about how you think about honesty in art?
Grace Lin:Yeah. You know, I really credit RISD actually a lot for Interesting. Because when you go to RISD, everyone is so talented and everyone is so good at drawing, so good at painting. So, and all of a sudden you start realizing, you know, what am what am I bringing to the table? Like, it's not just, I can draw an apple real good.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember there's lots of conversations about, you know, what makes an artist, know, RISD. Like, what makes an artist?
Grace Lin:What makes an artist? And I remember having this conversation, about how, you know, art is not about impressing people. It's not about saying, look at... It was actually a TA who was talking about this. I...
Grace Lin:I'm I'm sorry. I don't remember his name. But he was like, art is not about just like, look at what a great artist I am. See? Like, aren't I wonderful?
Grace Lin:Give me a pat on the back. It's all about having a voice or a message or something, a vision that you want to share with the world, right? And I remember this, he had said this like freshman year, but I remember that had resonated and I thought about it so long. And I remember I actually went to the European honors program here at the Rodolphe School of Design. And I remember like I was drawing the landscape, I was drawing the buildings, I was really proud of all my drawings, I was having a wonderful time.
Grace Lin:And that's when I was... And there I was like, I... Because I'm here in Rome, Italy, I'm gonna do the most beautiful Sleeping Beauty books in the world. You and Sleeping You. Yeah.
Grace Lin:And like, there's some kind of symbolism there. But, it was in Rome, Italy when I was, having coffee with my homestay family, and my homestay, I guess, brother was like, Oh, tell me the Chinese word for coffee. And I was like, I'm not Chinese. I'm American. I only speak English.
Grace Lin:You know, of course, I have to tell him all this in Italian. And he's like, Well, why don't you speak Chinese? And also I have to tell him about how my parents immigrated to The United States, and I was born in The United States. And I'm telling him this whole story in Italian. And, he's listening to me like,
Crystal Williams:Yeah. Like...
Grace Lin:Then finally... Because who knows what my Italian was like too.
Crystal Williams:He could have been saying, I'm blue balloons.
Grace Lin:Yeah. But finally, when I'm all done, he's like, okay. Your parents move from Taiwan to United States. Yes. And I was like, Yes.
Grace Lin:And he's like, Why? And I was like, I don't know. It was at that moment I realized I did not know why my own parents immigrated to The United States Of America. I knew I had this... I was having this conversation in Italian, but I didn't know one word of my parents' native tongue.
Grace Lin:Like, knew all about the Sistine Chapel. I knew about all about, like, the mascots of Rome, but I didn't know why my own parents immigrated to The United States Of America.
Crystal Williams:Why you were in this story.
Grace Lin:Yeah.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. And not that story.
Grace Lin:And that's when that the words of that TA came back to me. It's like, you have to have a vision to share with the world. And I realized, oh, I don't have a vision to share with the world because how can I have a vision when I've never even looked at myself? And that's where the honesty came in. It was like, I have not been honestly looking at myself.
Grace Lin:And how can I have my own vision to share when I haven't even seen that? And so, that's where the honesty comes in.
Crystal Williams:Can, can you, when, so when you are engaging, I know you read a lot. Yeah. When you're engaging other people's work, other art, are you looking to experience something that to you seems like honesty from other artists? Gosh.
Grace Lin:I think that when I look at other art, I'm looking for something that can become a part of myself. And I feel like, or I don't know if I'm looking for that, but I feel like the best art is something that becomes a part of myself. And I think that that only happens when the author or the creator is honest. Does that make sense? Like...
Crystal Williams:I think so. Unpack it a bit more.
Grace Lin:So I feel like, it's not so much that I'm looking for honesty, but what I'm looking for can only come from an honest author, illustrator, or an honest artist. Does that make more sense?
Crystal Williams:It does. It's a very, I'm, I'm, that resonates with me. Like I, we, I don't like for instance, cynical art. Yeah. I find it, actually on a very basic level, offensive.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. Right. And, we were talking a bit earlier about earnestness.
Grace Lin:Yeah.
Crystal Williams:And earnestness is on your mind. So I hear you saying that for you, good art is, is a moment of real connection, honest connection.
Grace Lin:Yes. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. And so talk a little bit, Grace, about what else is on your mind in relation to art.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Well, bring up earnestness and I think that's been something that I think about quite often, because I feel like, and we were saying earlier, I feel like we're both honest art... Honest, I'm sorry, we're both earnest Yeah. That I feel like I'm a very earnest person, and I feel like my art is very earnest as well. But unfortunately, I feel like we live in a time, and perhaps it's always been like this, where earnestness is kind of disdained, right?
Grace Lin:And it's kind of very uncool. I recently saw an interview with Ocean Vuong who talked about how his students are so afraid of being cringe, right? This idea that they don't cringe is pretty much just being earnest, right?
Crystal Williams:Being earnest, sentimental or whatever Yeah, it
Grace Lin:like being honest about how you're feeling. And I feel like that is such a shame, but actually, I feel like it's worse than shame. I feel like it's almost a tragedy
Crystal Williams:Yeah.
Grace Lin:That we look down on earnestness because I feel like it's that kind of honesty that is what makes great art. And great art is what makes the changes... What can change the world, you know? You know, I think that in children's books, especially, I also write novels, middle grade novels, there's been this huge thing in, middle grade novels where it's always the hero's journey, this hero that has been endowed with these great powers. Know, like, I guess you could see a better example would be like the Marvel movies.
Grace Lin:Like there's these heroic characters who have just been born with these great powers, they're like super strength, born to be queen, they're special people. While these are fun stories to read, these chosen one stories, they're fun stories, and I'm not putting them down. And I think we need some of them, but I do think we're almost... There's so many of them.
Crystal Williams:They're oversaturated. Yes.
Grace Lin:They're oversaturated. And this gives the idea that you have to be special to be heroic. And I work really hard with my books, hoping that I can reach kids to show them, no, no, no. To be a hero, you don't have to be special. You can just be somebody trying your honest best.
Grace Lin:And if you just try your honest best, that is what can make you a hero. You can change things, affect things. You can be... What makes you special is not what talent or...
Crystal Williams:Some magic pill or like some...
Grace Lin:It's this is what makes you special. It's just trying hard, you know? And I guess that's what it is. It's the, I think the cringe is the people like the try hards. I hate the try hards.
Grace Lin:I was like, you know, I love the try hards.
Crystal Williams:You
Grace Lin:know, like, because they're doing something, you know?
Crystal Williams:So. As you were saying that I started thinking a bit about my mother who was a school psychologist, and who, just reveled in all things creative. Right. She, I've been writing a bit about her and I remembered that when she died, I had to go through her things and she had gotten her hands on an antique Japanese loom. Now my mother was, she undertook all kinds of creative endeavor, you Was she ever gonna be a master weaver?
Crystal Williams:No. But the process of engaging the making of something, you were saying just reminded me that what I knew of her, having watched her learn how to undertake a Japanese tradition of using this incredible paper to cover boxes and da da da. And she did all kinds of things. The process of undertaking creative endeavor and making Yeah. Can help not only, it feels to me, like artists, but also humans.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. That there's something inherent in the creative project that is really important for the species. And I hear in some part of what you're saying that we, we're losing a bit of that. Is that a, is that? Yeah, exactly.
Grace Lin:I think creating is really what connects us to being human, right? And that's really something special. And I mean, I think what, I think, we were talking about as getting older, but also this advent of AI, it's made me really appreciate what at one point I might have called bad art, right? Because like at, you know, every scene, you know, especially as students, we kind of get snobby or snotty. And maybe I might have seen some art that maybe technically wasn't as well done, you know, like, or maybe some art that that maybe was maybe, like I said, maybe we'll just leave it as technically not as well done.
Grace Lin:And I might have looked down at that at one point, but now I see it and I feel like, you know what? That's great. That's wonderful. You know, that is somebody went out there and just wanted to make something and they did it. And that is is life, you know?
Grace Lin:And good for them. Uh-huh.
Crystal Williams:For us.
Grace Lin:Yeah. Good for all of us. Like, you know, and who knows? It's just trying to find that one connection and hope that it connects with more than one. And the more that it connects, the better.
Grace Lin:Like, that's how amazing if it only connects with one is still amazing, you know? So that's why I think that my ideas about quote unquote bad art has changed too. Like maybe I don't connect with what is maybe like a, what I would consider maybe not well done fairy on the wall, but it might connect with somebody and that's really important.
Crystal Williams:You know, I used to work in bookstores. I used, and, there was a moment when, yeah, and God knows, over the course of my life, I have had plenty of moments of literary snobbery. I mean, do you know And what I honestly, like, it's ridiculous. But I remember a moment in particular when, I just was standing and sort of looking at the, looking at the bookstore and realized, you know, in the mystery section or in the poetry section, there are just a broad spectrum of types of books. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:And, you know, people would come in and ask me for, yo, help. Like I'm looking for a mystery of blah, blah, blah. And you know, then you have a series of questions. And what these questions we're trying to get at was, what is the gateway that I need to help this person find that will help them walk through? And once they get on this journey, they'll then go through different gateways.
Crystal Williams:And so the spectrum of work is the thing that allows all of us to engage in the practice of reading. Yeah. You know? And it just was this moment I thought, God bless all of the writers who sat down every and tried to make something and then actually made it. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:And got it published. We had chutzpah and did whatever it was that they had to do, get out of their comfort zone. Yeah. To, to make a thing that was important to them that they hoped on some level might connect. That's a gorgeous thing.
Grace Lin:Yeah. It's something that I think, you know, the longer I've been in the publishing industry, it's been, and so many of my friends and colleagues, you know, we go to these conferences, we go into the bookstores and we see all these books. And we're like, it's humbling and sometimes it's demoralizing because you're like, gosh, does the world really need any more of my books?
Crystal Williams:Yes. What do I have to say?
Grace Lin:Does the world really need my
Crystal Williams:book? Yeah.
Grace Lin:And I always fall back on the two things. The one thing is like, maybe the world doesn't need my books, but I need to make it.
Crystal Williams:Oh, interesting.
Grace Lin:Because of all the things that we were saying about what it does for me on a purely selfish level. And then the other thing is maybe the world doesn't need my book, but maybe there's one person in that world. Maybe the little Grace Lin. Yeah.
Crystal Williams:So. You know, I keep thinking and I just want to say this aloud. I am so thankful to your mother. You know, I mean, you gave a shout out, but actually I think it's really important. So in what, in like '81, She's in Utica, New York.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. So, so right, just to unpack, so she's in Utica, New York, which for the people who don't know, is a small town in Upstate New York, which is pretty rural and disconnected. There's not the internet, so you can't go to Amazon. So she went out somehow, somewhere, and found those little tattered, nasty, poorly illustrated, bad paper books for her kid, which was not only a gift, but was a feat. Was a feat.
Crystal Williams:And I I keep thinking about that in the back of my head because the thing that our mothers give us or our people who love us as children allow us, they see something and then they try to amplify it or rectify it or inform it. I just think it's really, it's a really beautiful thing. I wanna ask maybe a last or a second to last question. Sure. There are a lot of young people in the world who aspire to be artists.
Crystal Williams:What if you were young, again, would you tell your young self today?
Grace Lin:Gosh. Well, I think about this a lot because my daughter
Crystal Williams:Yeah.
Grace Lin:Is... I can tell that she she draws all the time. Mhmm. And she... I can tell she wants to be she wants to be an artist of some of some kind.
Grace Lin:And I think about it, and and I remember speaking to my husband about it. And he's like, well, of course she does. She sees you. Like, she... Like, you can't tell her it's it's not gonna happen or it can't happen because you made it happen.
Grace Lin:You know? And it's it's hard to say, like, well, but I got lucky, you know? But but then I think, you know what? What would I tell myself? I think that...
Grace Lin:I feel like the thing that is most important is, I guess would be courage, right?
Crystal Williams:Interesting.
Grace Lin:I think it's courage. Because without courage, you don't do anything, right? I guess maybe it's hope, hope and courage. Because without hope, you don't have courage. Right?
Grace Lin:So I think it's a mixture of those two things. I think if you always hold on to hope and courage, hope that that you can do do something, you know, and then take the courage to try to do something. And who knows, maybe it won't work out, but something will happen, you know? And I guess that we don't know what's going to happen. Who knows if like if there's even going be books in ten years, you know, like, but I think that if you are courageous and you just this is your path and you keep going on your path, you'll go somewhere, right?
Grace Lin:And so I guess that's what I would think about mostly when I think about myself, like keep have courage, keep going. And I think that's the whole thing because all my, the saddest parts that I look back at my life have been the parts where I've lost courage, you know, where I've lost hope, where I've become cynical, like you were saying. Because we've talked about how cynicism is more... Is not so much about being skeptical or being worried or thinking like things might not work out. Cynicism is more about the idea like it's never gonna work, why bother?
Grace Lin:Right? And those have been the most depressing, the saddest parts of my life. And it's been the the parts where I've had the most courage to actually do things have not been the happiest, but those have been the turning points of my life that have brought me to my happiest points.
Crystal Williams:Last question. Okay. And you might've just answered it, but I'm more concrete. Okay. What, what might be your biggest either lesson
Grace Lin:or regret? My biggest lesson and my biggest regret, gosh.
Crystal Williams:Or not and, it could be or.
Grace Lin:Or, okay. My biggest lesson. Okay, I'll answer that in two anecdotes. Or, I'll answer... My biggest lesson is probably when my first husband passed away.
Grace Lin:And when he passed away, I realized there's no... It's final. You know, like death Like, is there's no... Like everything else in life, there's always some kind of like, well, maybe I could do this. Maybe I can do that.
Grace Lin:Can we do this? Like, there's always some kind of pivot. But after you die, there's no pivot, you know? And when I realized that was like a really big lesson, I mean, everybody knows you're going to die, right? Everyone, it's one thing to know it and one thing to believe it.
Crystal Williams:That's exactly right. And when
Grace Lin:you hit, when it hits you so personally up and close, you... All of sudden you're like, oh, this is all I've got. This is it. Yeah. And, knowing that lesson is what made me move forward in so many of the books I did.
Grace Lin:Interesting. Like Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. I had been scared to publish Where the Mountain Meets the Moon because I was afraid people might think I was culturally appropriating because I... Like all these things. And I was like, you know what?
Grace Lin:I just have to do it. And if people don't understand, I have to accept it. I have to let people misunderstand me. I have to let people believe what they believe. But I have to do this.
Grace Lin:Courage. Yeah. And that's the courage. And the anecdote that I like to leave people with is my daughter, when she was four years old, she said to me, I'm very smart. And she's like, that's only a four year old to be like, I am so smart.
Grace Lin:And I was like... And I remember, you know, as a good mom, and I was like I was like, yes, you're very smart, but there are some things that are just as important or more important than being smart, you know? And was going to be like, you know, like working hard and being kind. And I was like, You know, there are things that are just as important or more important than being smart. And she's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.
Grace Lin:Like, be brave, being brave, blah, blah, blah. And when she said that and she kind of said it like, yeah, be brave. I know. And then I was like, oh, it was because I hadn't been expecting her to say being brave was more important than being smart. And it kind of took me back.
Grace Lin:And of course she is saying being brave because being brave for her was like using the toilet on the airplane.
Crystal Williams:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Grace Lin:You know, like, because I was like, be brave. We're kiddos. But it was so I remember her words, like, really resonating. It was like one of those moments where I was like, oh. And I was like, yeah, it's true.
Grace Lin:Being brave is more important than being smart. It's being more important than all of those things. And I kind of felt like, oh, that's the mantra. And so like every once in a while when I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, okay, be Be
Crystal Williams:brave. Thank you. It's been so wonderful this afternoon. Thank you. I just love talking and thinking with you about art and courage and story and identity and visibility.
Crystal Williams:Thank you. Thank And thank you for your work.
Grace Lin:Oh, thank you.
Crystal Williams:Actually, the impact of your work is phenomenal.
Grace Lin:Aw, thanks for having me.
Crystal Williams:Thank you again, Grace, for joining me for this conversation. As always, I enjoyed thinking about what shapes our notions of identity, earnestness, and creativity with you. Your zest and optimism is such an inspiration, as are your books. Thank you for the work you've undertaken on behalf of us all, Grace. Join me next time for more inspiration and insight on It Starts With a Question.
Crystal Williams:In the meantime, keep up with Grace at Casey Lin on Instagram and follow me on Instagram at CrystalAnnWilliams. Learn more about RISD at risdi.edu.