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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
So picture this for a moment.
You're a product marketer
trying to level up your
career, but every time you
open LinkedIn, it feels
like everyone else has the
perfect resume, the perfect
job, and the perfect story.
Meanwhile, you are
tricking resume bullets
at midnight and second
guessing every single word.
And on top of that, you
feel super stressed at
work and you you're not
sure how to get help.
Most pmms never actually
get real feedback on their
resume or messaging or
their career directions.
We're all just guessing.
Guessing what hiring
managers care about, guessing
what makes us stand out,
guessing whether or not
our stories land or fall.
Totally.
Well, that guessing
ends today.
With that, I'm so excited
to share today's episode
with all of you because it
is a very special episode.
We are kicking off a brand
new miniseries featuring
some of the biggest voices
in product marketing.
Welcome to the PMM Summit
series, brought to you
by the Product Marketing
Adventures Podcast, and our
very first guest For this
special edition, I could
not be more thrilled to be
teaming up with the one and
only Yi Lin Pei renowned
PMM coach, career strategist,
and one of the sharpest
operators in the field.
You guys, yin has 15
years of experience
in product marketing.
With the last four
dedicated to ambitious
product marketers who wanna
level up their careers.
She has helped more than 300
pmms all over the world from
getting hired in as little
as 30 days to helping them
onboard with confidence and
get promoted within months.
And if that weren't
impressive enough, she
also teams up, with some
of the most adored products
for pmms as an advisor,
to companies like Nevada.
She is also rated as one of
the top 25 marketing voices
on LinkedIn by Exit five.
Yi Lin, welcome to the show.
Well, thank you so much
for having me here.
I am so excited to be here
and what an introduction.
I hope I live up to the
expectations of everyone.
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.
Thank you for being here.
okay, so for today's
episode, we have three parts.
The first part is going
to be write my Resume.
The second part is the
Coaching Hot Seat, and the
third is, as in all of the
episodes, of my podcast,
the messaging critique.
And that one is, uh, the
company will be chosen by the
product marketing community.
So very exciting there.
So, hey listeners, from
positioning yourself to
navigating your career, to
sharpening your fundamentals,
this episode is packed with
guidance and this is your PMM
Summit series Coaching Hour.
So let's get into it.
The first segment of our
show is Rate My Resume.
and we've got a real mid-level
senior PMM resume here, so
it's totally anonymized.
Personal details have been
removed, and we're going
to walk through it line
by line with our expert
PMM Career Coach Yin.
Okay.
So yin, I'm really
excited for this.
I feel like every single
time you pop up on LinkedIn
with a resume tip I have,
and I'm sure all of our
listeners have this, like,
oh my God, I've been doing it
wrong all this time moment.
and this is gonna go
so much deeper than
a social media post.
So, I guess to get us started,
walk us through the resume
that, was submitted to you
with some first impressions
and what's working, what's
not, and what stands
out to you immediately.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for even
bringing about this topic
because you know, we have
had a really rough year,
uh, to be honest, when it
comes to product marketing,
hiring, and job search, right?
There's so many things from
macroeconomic conditions to
AI changing how people hire
and know what the needs of
hiring, and so a lot of folks
are having a lot of trouble
getting jobs, and resume is
one of the most requested
things that people come
to me for help on because
it's sort of the thing
that gets you in the door.
Right.
Like if you don't have
a resume, you can't
literally get the interview.
Um, but I feel like before
we jump in the interview,
the one thing, uh, that the
review, I will have one,
just one thing to kind of
quickly clarify with people,
which is what is even the
purpose of the resume?
Because I think there's a
big concept, misconception.
A lot of people think a
resume is something you
showcase all your skills
and your experiences.
It's a place that's supposed
to capture everything in
your life, but it's not.
A resume is really more
like a movie trailer.
It's supposed to show
highlights from your
past experience that's
most relevant to the
interviewers, right?
And then when they read
that resume, they will be
hooked just like a movie
trailer, and then they would
wanna go and talk to you.
So that is so important and
this is really key because it
means you don't have to have
everything you've ever done
in your entire life on your
What a, what a great,
uh, metaphor to
compare it to, right?
Thinking of your resume as a
movie trailer, it's a little
bit more exciting too when
you think about it that way.
so let's get into it.
What, can you show
us the resume?
Absolutely.
So I'm going to, uh, share
my screen right now, and as
you've mentioned, this is a
sort of anonymized resume from
a real candidate, somebody
in my job search program
who graciously volunteered
to have their resume?
reviewed.
So I'm gonna pop it up on
the screen right now and
lemme know if you see it.
We can see it.
Okay.
perfect.
So I'm just gonna quickly
scan through this resume,
um, so people can have
a moment to just kind of
quickly look at it, look,
look at it, if that's okay.
Yeah.
Okay, Perfect.
So this is like a pretty
standard resume, you
know, with a, uh, short.
Summary section describing
who they are, and then
it gets into a few
experiences they have.
Um, at the top there is a
product marketing manager
position, then there's a
senior product marketing
position, and then there's
a product marketing
specialist position.
Right.
And then go into their
education, uh, as well
as, uh, some additional
information from their
skills and community.
So pretty standard and
straightforward resume in
terms of layout, which I find
to be actually very easy and
effective in communicating,
um, their background.
so.
How do I review
a resume, right?
Because, you know, I was
talking to you about this
earlier, and, uh, we're
discussing, well, we can
really go on for hours
discussing every single nitty
gritty detail about a resume.
Um, so what are the most
important things that
hiring managers really
looking for when they are
coming onto the resume?
Right?
Here are a few things I
really care about when
I'm looking at a resume.
Number one, is it
easy to read, right?
If it's not easy to read
for me to scan, it just,
it doesn't give me a
really good experience.
There are a lot of candidates
out there who have two column
resumes or resumes with a
lot of fancy design that
is okay if it's very clear,
but a lot of times if those
designs clutter the resume
and makes it really hard to
read, I Would try to avoid
those kinds of designs.
Would you say that this resume
is very clear in its design?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I personally
just prefer text based
resumes that's very clean
with one column layout.
Again, it can vary a little
bit right from design
perspectives, but to me,
a good resume has a high
level summary statement.
And I think this is really
important to have this
statement up here because
it's sort of like the headline
of like a homepage, right?
you want that first?
sentence to create the
biggest impact for why
you are the right person
for the job straight away.
Instead of having, you
know, the hiring ed manager
or the recruiter do like a
lot of digging into like,
why are you even applying
for this role, right?
So this really sets the
context upfront and then
jump straight into the
experience and then just
ending with educational
background and just some
additional skills that
could be useful and helpful.
I've noticed a lot of
people, for instance,
include sections like.
Key competencies, right?
And they would list a ton
of different bullets up
front about like, you know,
positioning, messaging,
product, launching,
all of those things.
I personally don't find
those things to be very
useful because that's not
differentiating at all.
Right?
Everybody can
have those things.
Those are the things
you push to the end or
delete all together.
yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned, sorry,
and so I'm just gonna
recap this for a minute.
You mentioned the design
just the design being clean.
You recommend a one column
layout, and then you
recommend a very standard
approach with the summary,
the experience, the education
credentials at the bottom.
I think at the top of
the, of the segment, you
mentioned that there were
three kind of big things.
is that what you meant?
Did you mean it like, in
terms of like the segments
on the actual resume itself?
Or are there more, I guess
like rules of thumb, rules
of thumb, general guidelines
that you would follow?
Yeah.
so I have a few other
guidelines to follow.
There's actually six
things on my list.
So Yeah.
we can go through them
if that's, uh, okay.
Um, Yeah, so we just went
through the design, right,
which is just like high
level, you know, how does this
appear right at a high level.
Second is really
about targeting.
Is it very clear?
What this person is
targeting, right?
So when I'm reading this
resume, I wanna get a
sense of what level they're
targeting, what kind of
background do they have?
Are they targeting
specific domains, right?
Where they might
have competitive
differentiation, right?
Just because as we know
as product marketers,
the more targeted we are,
the better it's gonna be.
So when I look at this resume,
right, those are the kind of
key things I'm looking for.
Um, when I'm reading the
summary statement, I wanna
look for any industry
experiences that might be
relevant for my industry.
I wanna look at the type of
skills they're talking about
That might be the things that,
I'm really looking for in the
job that they're going after.
and also, when I'm reading
about the different jobs
they have from their past
experiences, I wanna see
whether these companies
are similar to mine, right?
Both from a domain perspective
as well as from a size
right stage perspective
or things like that.
Mm-hmm.
so we can jump right
into that question if
it, if that's okay.
And get back to your list.
So the question that I have is
around taking up real estate
on the resume itself to give
context into the role that
the candidate is currently
in or has previously been in.
So for example, if you
worked at a, small company,
um, maybe it's at a hundred
million a RR, maybe it's
in the like ad tech space.
Like I'm making all
these details up, but it
gives context into the.
Company, the size of market
that maybe it has the market
category that gives context
to the hiring manager, the
recruiter, that sort of thing.
do you think it's a wise
decision for candidates
to actually give real
estate on your resume
to that information when
already I know, I know.
I've personally experienced
feeling like I don't have
enough information on the, or
I have too much information
on the page already.
What are your
thoughts on that?
It's such a Great.
question.
I am all for it because
that context is so important
to help you stand out and
make your resume relevant.
And so for companies where
nobody knows what that is,
right, or people who are not
familiar with the company
you were at previously, I
think is helpful to really
define it and provide a
short and succinct sentence.
I actually have some examples
to show you from a sample
resume, which will actually
make available to anybody
who's listening later.
as an example, right?
This will be like
one, I actually show
people as an example.
Let's say.
you worked at a startup that
is a series B SaaS startup.
and it's a FinTech
solution, right?
That's very important
information because if
you're applying for another
startup in FinTech, it would
be helpful to have that
statement because it signals
to the hiring manager, oh
wow, this person already
have that experience, right?
And this is also where you
can maybe reposition and
rework the statement a little
bit to make it even more
obvious to the hiring manager
why they might be relevant.
As an example, maybe the
company you're applying
to is an AI product or has
a very specific AI angle.
You might even say, Hey,
the previous company
I worked at has an AI
power product, right?
By calling those things out
specifically, that's going
to significantly improve
the relevance of the resume.
Yes, I think that actually
goes along really well with
the targeting aspect that you
were just walking through.
And I can tell you, me
as a hiring manager, I
like having that context.
It's helpful for me to
see, I mean either way,
if I see something on your
resume that I really like,
I'm gonna go look you up.
I'm gonna go look
at your LinkedIn.
I'm gonna go check out
the company that you
worked at anyway, but it's
still helpful to have.
okay.
So you talked about,
hierarchy on the page.
You talked about
simple design.
You talked about is your
resume well targeted?
What's next on your list?
Great question.
So the next thing on my list
is from top to bottom is, is
really the summary statement,
like how you need to be
writing the summary statement.
So just having a summary
statement in my view is
that's not enough, right?
It's, you have to have a
really good summary statement.
So what are the things that
are really important to have
in the summary statement?
In my view, there
are four things.
number One write
the exact title you're
targeting, right?
So if you're going after
a senior product marketing
manager position, it's
probably helpful for you to
just say, I'm a senior product
marketing manager upfront.
Uh, believe it or not,
I've had people applying
for different roles.
Like let's say they're
applying for senior product
marketing manager, but
they're not saying that they
would say, I'm a marketing
leader, I'm a go-to market
specialist, Or I'm a PMM.
right?
But That's not aligned
with the title you're
going after, right.
So it's kind of Like
you need to tell people
who you are right away.
So the, and the second
thing is, to make sure
you're highlighting the most
relevant skills that's aligned
with the job description
that you want to target.
So let's say the row is
very focused on go to
market product launches
or more outbound.
stuff.
What you Want to state
in that summary statement
should be more focused
on outbound versus.
everything is focused on
inbound or things that are
completely not related to what
the job is really asking for.
The third thing is to mention
any unique differentiation
that you have, right?
Because again, you
want to stand Out from
the crowd and make it really
clear to the hiring manager
why you might be the best
candidate for this position.
So let's say the job asks you.
to, uh, have experience
launching AI products
in FinTech, and you have
that exact experience.
You want to put it upfront
and bold it probably right?
To say, Hey, I have experience
launching AI powered
FinTech products, right?
So just call it out,
don't bury The, lead.
and the last thing I was
gonna mention, just to
close off this summary
statement, is to really think
of quantifiable outcome.
Again, you don't have to
mention so many different
outcomes, but it might
be helpful to state at
least one outcome in the
summary statement just to
show the level of impact
or the level of magnitude.
As an example, if you're
applying for startup, it
might be good for you to
say you have influenced,
directly influenced, maybe
eight digit, you know,
million or, you know, tens of
millions of dollars, Right.
In pipeline.
Whereas if you are, are
applying to a really
large company that might,
that number might be
hundreds of millions or
even billions, Right.
In pipeline, just depending
on the size of the business.
That magnitude, again,
signals fit, right?
Because I've had candidates
who are applying to
early stage startups,
but they were citing the
experiences from Google.
And I'm like, that's
impressive, but it's not
relatable at all for an
aerospace startup, right?
They don't need somebody
to have launched a
hundred million product.
They need somebody to
have launched from zero to
Yes.
Yes.
I love this all gets back
to context and targeting
that we talked about.
And I'm sorry I
interrupted you.
Was there one more
thing you wanted
No, no, no.
I think that's the key, right?
Like everything we've
discussed so far is how do
you make sure whatever you
are stating on your resume
is truly relevant for the
role you're going after.
And and the best way to.
think about it is reverse
engineering, right?
Don't think about
yourself first.
Think what the company
needs and wants, and then
what you need them to say.
Right?
Because a lot of times
people develop their,
their, their resume.
They're like, oh, here's
what I bring to the table.
I'm just gonna list
everything I have without
tying back to the actual job
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And you can so easily get
overlooked for a position
that you might be perfect for.
so you mentioned something
that I planned on asking
you about anyway, so I'm
just gonna go for it.
So you talked about putting
in the summary one big metric
or quantifiable outcome.
and we might get into this
when we get into the more the
experience and you know, maybe
we don't have time to rewrite
every single bullet point
of this particular resume.
But, when we talk about
metrics, and maybe this
doesn't go in the summary,
and this could, this could
be a question also relevant
to the experience section
on the resume itself.
But, I think one area where
product marketers specifically
struggle in is talking about.
the metrics, like what metrics
should I be, be including if
I don't own them outright,
there may be a shared metric.
what's the right way
to display that on
my, on my resume?
Yeah.
such a great question.
And, and to be honest, it's
a hard one to answer, right?
Because we don't own metrics
to your point, right?
So most of the things we
have to state are going
to be metrics that are
shared with other teams.
in my view, the best metrics
to state on the resume are
related to business metrics
because ultimately everybody
understands business metrics.
That's what's important
for the business at the
end of the day, right?
So think, you know, revenue
pipeline or more top of
funnel type of metrics.
And the way I would state it
would be to be very honest
and say I have indirectly
influenced these amount of
pipeline, I influenced these
amounts of, revenue, right?
And that would be
enough in my opinion.
What matters Is stating
upfront, when it comes
to the actual experience
you're talking about,
making sure it's very clear
how you influence that.
That's the part that's
generally missing when people
are listing the experiences.
And we can definitely
talk more about that
when we get there.
Ah, okay.
Very helpful.
I like that approach a lot.
so it's all about influence,
which is so much of a product
marketer's role anyway.
okay, so back to your list.
We talked about, the design,
the simple design, the layout.
We talked about the summary,
and I loved your formula
that you gave for how to
write a great summary.
what's next?
Yeah,
yeah, absolutely.
um, what's next?
is really the bullets.
So I have a few things I want
to talk about when it comes to
writing the actual experiences
for the bullets specifically.
the formula I follow when
creating a bullet is to
make sure each bullet
can stand on its own.
It's related to one very
clear responsibility of
a product marketer and
that it composes of these
three different parts.
Number one, what it is,
what is that particular core
skills or or responsibility?
Number two, how did you
go about doing that?
And then number three is the,
what's the outcome, right?
So as an example, I
actually think this person,
this candidate's second
bullet, follows that
framework quite well and
it's pretty good, right?
So if we read, what this
bullet is saying is, I'm
just gonna highlight it in
case people can't really
see clearly rebuilt core
positioning and messaging
around customer pain
points and value pillars.
clarifying differentiators
and improving narrative
consistency across the
funnel, which contributed to
measured measurable gains in
pipeline velocity by two x.
Steel conversion by 3.5
x and expansion revenue
of XX million dollars.
Right.
So this follows actually
that exact format, which
is what it is, which is
positioning and messaging.
And then it says how this
person did it, which is
by understanding customer
pain points, turning that
into value pillars, right?
And differentiation, and then
creating narratives around
it, which then delivered
all of these metrics.
if you were, reviewing, let's
say this resume right here,
is this too weird and like
not a good use of space?
What if each bullet point
was hyperlinked to an
example on a portfolio, on
like a digital portfolio?
And it said like,
see example here.
Is that like overkill or
is that like now let's just
keep it simple and stick
to the black and white.
It's a really good question.
I do think it's helpful
and, and possibly a good
idea to test it and see
what happens and if people
even click on those links.
so my immediate reaction
is it might be slightly
overkill because as you know,
right, we review so many
Yeah.
as hiring managers.
You right, you probably
won't click on everything.
You might click on
one or two things.
So in my view, if I were
to include it, I might
just include hyperlinks to
the most marquee projects
I've done because I wanna
create the best impression.
Right?
The challenge with linking
everything I've noticed from
product marketer is that To be
honest, right, they just can't
maintain the level of quality
if they link to everything.
Like I'd rather see one
absolutely amazing project
that you've knocked out
of the park than three
mediocre projects, which
would actually dampen my
interest in you, to be honest.
Right?
So that's probably
what I would say.
If you are highly confident,
your projects are just
absolutely amazing, right?
And and above everybody else's
projects, I would include
it, but if you're not sure.
not sure.
them.
Yeah.
So true story.
I actually had a
candidate do that.
love this.
Tell me more.
Yeah.
I did click on it because
I had never seen it before.
I was disappointed
though, because it's
funny, you're right.
The examples were not great.
I liked the concept
of it truthfully.
'cause I was like, oh, they're
putting the proof right here.
And then I clicked on it.
Now.
I think honestly, just
the way that they put
together the portfolio
maybe wasn't strong enough.
but anyway,
Yeah,
that's one of the most common
questions I get is about
showcasing their projects
right through portfolios.
it's actually a big module.
I actually covering my job
search program as well.
And to be honest with you,
one of the first things
I tell people is be sure
whatever you're including
is of high quality.
Because sometimes
the portfolio can
do you a disservice.
Like, I might have actually
progressed you through the
interview if I didn't see
your portfolio then if I've
had seeing your portfolio.
Right.
So,
is so true.
Yes, it can actually
Right.
Absolutely.
So what I generally tell
people is don't show the
portfolio super early on,
but show a project that is
most relevant for the hiring
manager after you've talked
to the hiring manager.
and actually this
happened to me.
So I was hiring a candidate
in my past job and I had a
candidate who I interviewed
who was really great, but when
I spoke to him, he just seemed
like he was more juniors, you
know, in terms of experience.
I had other candidates
with more experience.
So I said, you know, I'm
gonna pass on the candidate.
but then after a couple of
days, the candidate sent me
an email to say, Hey, I really
enjoyed our conversation.
I understand That maybe I
didn't fully present myself
that well in terms of my
experience, but I remember
from our conversation what
you mentioned about needing
more competitive intelligence
for whatever you're trying to
build right at the company.
And in fact, I actually
am sending you a project
where I did some competitive
intelligence and I
actually did some messaging
comparisons as well.
I want you to take a look to
see if it might be relevant.
I opened that thing.
It was one of the most
impressive competitive
intelligence projects
I've ever seen.
Right.
the person did an
actual analysis of
our key competitors.
They actually used SEMrush
and did a whole bunch
of even traffic analysis
of keywords analysis and
everything, and made real
suggestions about how we
can improve our messaging.
I was like, oh my
God, I can take this
right now and use it.
Of course, I re-interviewed
the candidate and hired him
and he's like my, one of my
star performers and we're
still very good friends today.
It's
Wow.
Okay.
So fortune's in the
follow-up and that
candidate was hungry for the
opportunity and it shows,
absolutely.
So less is more.
Right.
And only show when you feel
extremely confident you wanna
Yes.
And, and again, context and
targeting, because even in how
he followed up, it was, well,
there was, the context was
there, it was well targeted.
okay, so back to your list.
I feel like I keep taking
us down these tangents, so
what's next in your list?
I think what's next really
here is to, once you have done
all the bullets, right, and,
and following that format,
make sure the bullets line up
with, with what they're asking
for in the job description.
In general, I think about
four types of experiences you
wanna make sure you highlight.
To have a balanced product,
marketing, like a full stack
product marketing profile.
You wanna make sure
your experiences.
some of your experiences,
talk about inbound work.
For instance, research, right?
Customer research,
market research or
competitive research.
You want make sure they
talk about positioning and
messaging, storytelling
because again, that's key.
You wanna talk about product
launches, go to market, right?
Outbound as well
as enablement.
If you're working for a
B2B company, talk about
sales enablement, customer
success enablement, field
enablement in general.
But if you're working more for
PLG or B2C type of companies,
talk more about working
with, the demand generation
team campaigns, right?
Or product activations,
onboarding and things
like that, that might
be more relevant.
So make sure you have
a breadth of different
things that you can cover,
because sometimes I notice
people might have very good
experiences, but it really
skews one direction, right?
It might just be like a lot
of different product launches.
I'm like, you don't
need three bullets.
I'm talking about three
separate product launches.
that's kind of
repetitive, right?
But what might be
missing?
They're like, oh, I just
need to show these amazing
marquee projects because in
my mind, these are the most
brilliant things I've done.
I'm like, that's great, but
again, relevancy, did you
talk about something else
that's relevant for them,
but you don't have, right.
So that's important to make
sure when you scan that the
impression you're giving
is that this is a balanced
candidate who has a food stack
product market experience,
and also in the areas where
we need the most help.
Yes.
Okay.
So last question for
you on this topic.
It sounds like best advice
would be to customize a
resume for each job that
you're applying to, to make
sure that it's truly targeted
and has the context needed.
But like, is, I guess what
I'm asking is, is it better
to keep your target companies.
Similar so that you have
less versions of your resume
or do I like create version
after version, after version
after version of my resume?
Which one do I do
such a great question.
Such a great question.
You answered yourself.
Yeah.
And so what I
tell people to do?
is, because you have a
really good targeting where
most of your companies,
the most companies you're
reaching out to generally
have a similar profile.
You could have one base
resume, so I call it like
the master, the mother
resume Or whatever you
wanna call it, right?
Where you basically
have all the things in
there, the most important
information and everything.
And then for each job you will
create a tailored version.
But you should spend no
more than 30 minutes max to
tailor it because you already
have the base resume that
should match 80 to 90% of
what the job is looking for.
Based on your targeted,
based on your target
exactly.
Where people have this
problem with customizing is
when they are not targeted.
If you're targeting one
company that is one type
and then another one that's
drastically different.
Of course you're gonna be
spending hours rewriting
your entire resume.
That is absolutely not
effective nor efficient in
landing the jobs you want.
So again, step number
one before we even talk
about resume is targeting
and then base resume,
and then customization.
This is such a cool breakdown.
I think this is
so, so helpful.
so I wanna underline that
I'm of impression that
I'm leaving with, um, as
we wrap up this segment.
And that's let, your resume
should not be a list of tasks.
It should be a signal that you
curate based on the context
and targeted content that
you put into your resume.
And it should showcase how you
think, how you communicate,
how you drive impact through
the skills that you've
accumulated as a product
marketer over your career.
is there any, like, last,
any lasting things you
wanted to mention before
we wrap up the segment?
I mean, you've covered it.
Whatever you just said,
that's exactly it.
I think that's the
most important thing.
just think about the resume
as the movie trailer.
reverse engineer, think
about what they want and then
how your experience fit in.
Right.
And then apply the techniques
and tips we just mentioned.
Then you're good
to go, basically.
I love it.
So huge thank you to you
for walking us through
this and to our anonymous
PMM for being brave and
letting us use their resume.
This is super valuable.
Um, alright, so we're
gonna move on to the second
segment of this special
edition podcast episode.
This segment is called
The Coaching Hot Seat.
so yin in this segment we
are gonna take a look at real
challenges that were submitted
from pmms around the world.
and I believe these were
submitted specifically
for this podcast episode.
Is that right?
That's right?
Yes.
Okay.
so ahead of this, uh,
podcast, Elin and I, mostly
Elin scouted through the
product marketing world
and real product marketers
submitted their challenges
that they're facing every day,
but either in their careers
or in their job search.
And Elin spent tireless
hours scouring through the
submissions to select what
she felt like were gonna
be the most useful to the,
to the broadest group.
So.
Here's how this is gonna work.
In this segment, I am going
to read, two different
scenarios, and that was
submitted by our listeners.
So I'll read the first one,
and then Elin, you can give
your, guidance or coaching
as if you are in a real
one-on-one coaching session.
With that PMM, anything else
you wanted to add to that?
No, I think that?
sounds perfect.
Since we don't have the
other PMM here to respond
back to me, I think we're
gonna be responding back.
We're Assuming what the,
Assuming what they would
be asking and saying a
little bit of role playing.
Okay.
So our first, our
first listener is Josh.
So let me read what
Josh submitted.
He said.
I am completely overwhelmed.
This year we went through
multiple rounds of layoffs.
Our PMM team went from
seven people down to three.
Now it feels like
everything is falling on me.
My VP of marketing doesn't
have a product marketing
background and keeps tossing
random requests at me.
Sometimes things that feel
completely outside my scope.
On top of that, other
teams keep pinging me
for one pagers and urgent
requests that don't seem
aligned with any strategy.
I honestly don't even know
what my priorities are
supposed to be for next year.
I feel burnt out, confused,
and like I'm letting everyone
down because I can't keep up.
What should I be doing?
How should I get out of this?
Poor Josh?
I feel like I've lived
the same PMM life before.
Um, I bet many of our
listeners have too.
So, Ely, where do you even
begin with someone who's
experiencing something like
Yeah, I mean, this?
is a tough one, and I
feel for Josh, because
this is unfortunately
so common this year.
Many pmms have been going
through the same things
again, with the same things we
talked about earlier, right?
The macro macroeconomic
environment, teams cutting
back and just wanting each
person to do a lot more.
And on top of that, if a VP
of marketing or CMO doesn't
really have that background,
they just kind of dump
everything on PMM, who seems
to be the catchall, right?
For
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
It almost feels like two
separate challenges, but I'll
let you kind of, you know,
state your expertise here.
No, no, no.
I mean, this is a good
discussion, uh, for sure.
And I agree with you.
I think it's multi-layered.
so the way I think about
it is the first thing is
to really figure out how to
resolve the short term pain
that Josh is feeling, right?
Let's kind of quickly,
uh, reduce some of the
burning things, that that's
basically the day in and
day out, doing the work
and getting burned out.
How do we do that?
And, and to me that's
really about prioritization.
What I tell people when I
work with them is to literally
list out every single
project they're working on,
no matter how small, right?
Requests from other teams,
projects your boss has
given you and everything,
and, and list them out
and then categorize
them into four different
categories based on impact.
Versus effort.
So this is something I
actually kind of created
just from by myself, but
really it's a pretty well
known product management
framework called the Action
Priority Matrix, right?
So basically if something is
high impact and high effort,
then it's a big rock, or what
you call major project, right?
Where you really have
to dedicate a lot
of time to work on.
and also it might be helpful
for you to break that project
into different phases and show
results in different phases.
Because for these big
projects, I find where people
get they struggle on is they
don't even know where to
tackle it 'cause it's so big.
Or they spend forever
working on it without
showing results, right?
Instead of, instead they
need to be building rapport
and visibility across
the project at different
points in that timeline.
The second category,
which are, in my
opinion, my favorite
category, are quick wins.
So high impact projects
that's tied to the goals.
A low effort, right?
So it's like maybe creating
that highly sought after
case study that sales
teams really want, right?
That's gonna make so many
people happy and win.
that's gonna be really great,
where they wanna really
spend the time working on.
And then of course, there
are the lower part, low
impact things, right?
The low impact that doesn't
take a lot of time, and
the low impact that takes
a lot of time, neither of
which are really great.
So in those cases, they
might be delegate clarifying
boundaries, finding other
things like AI to help
them do certain work.
But the goal would be to
remove as much of those
projects as possible from
their plate, or automate
as much as possible.
But what I find
is when people start listing
down all of their projects
in that worksheet and
putting them into these four
categories, they realize
a whole lot of them, at
least 30%, are in that
low value category, right?
That they can then figure
out how do they package
this and communicate to
their manager, which is
step number two is figuring
out how do you tell people
like, Hey, these are the
things I believe are the most
important for the business.
And here are the things that
I think we can find additional
resources to work on.
The way I think about
reframing those things
is to really focus on
finding solutions for how
to deal with that problem
instead of going to your
boss with those problems.
Right?
you know, it's not helpful to
go and say, I can't do this
work because I'm overwhelmed.
As you can see in my
list, I have too much.
Yes.
Yeah, it makes you
look really junior.
It makes you look like an
order taker when you come to
them with a task list and say,
look how long my task list is.
Oh my gosh.
I had a PMM on my team once
who, when I first, I joined
the company and he was on
the team that I acquired
when I joined the company.
And um, that's
how he operated.
And you could tell that's
what was modeled for him.
He was like, oh, I have
too much on my plate.
And he'd show me
this list of stuff.
And I'm like, you don't
need half of these things.
So anyway, just wanted
to validate what you were
saying about, um, the way
that you communicate your
priorities based on value
and impact, I think is so
meaningful and helps you
speak with more confidence
and will help establish
trust from your superiors
and manager, I think as well.
Absolutely.
And I think you raised a
really good point that the
task exercise, the listing
of the task exercise is
for you, but you don't
wanna bring to your boss
a list that is definitely
not the right way, right?
So the, so take that list,
but then turn that into a
strong narrative that's tied
to the priorities, right?
Say, Hey, you know, boss,
as we're coming close to Q4
or we're starting Q1, I've
thought about how do we
spend our time in the best
way possible to drive the
most value for the company?
And here's what I put
together in terms of
major initiatives that is
tied to our goal, right?
From, you know, the
exercise I've been working
on, here's the list.
would you work with me
and we can work together
to confirm what, what
are the top three to four
priorities in your view?
Work with them to verify
those things, right?
And then say,
okay, that's great.
given These are the
priorities, right?
Here's some other things
that are, left on our
plate that we can do
Here's some options.
I have laid out for how We can
still do those things, right?
Or delegate them or whatever
other options you have, right?
To get them down and
then you can, say, here's
different trade-offs of the
different options, right.
Perhaps it's delegating
to a different team.
perhaps
it's communicating to
these different places
who request these things.
that is not, now maybe we
have delayed those things
and perhaps it's buying a
software that's gonna help.
replace a lot of the
manual labor, right?
But then when you have
those things, now it
becomes a solution.
It's about choice versus,
Hey, I'm complaining
about my work, basically.
Yep, yep, yep.
Exactly.
Okay, so let me just kind
of recap this for a minute.
You.
think about all of the
projects, everything that
you have on your plate,
and you do this exercise,
that matrix that you talked
about with impact and value.
And you do that for you.
You use that to come up
with your narrative, to how
you're going to talk about
basically your priorities
with your manager and talk
through that together.
what's left after that?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So one of the things that's
really important to think
about is how do you make sure.
Crazy, random requests
don't come your way
in the future, right?
Because a lot of the work
you're given is not given by
your manager, to be honest.
Right?
It's from other teams.
You have sales pinging
you, Hey, I want one pager.
You might have a laundry
list and the backlog
of ten one pagers
yes.
Oh my gosh.
I
right,
of one pagers.
Yeah.
right, right.
Or, or like, you know,
product team asking you
for some random stuff or
support team asking you
for FAQs or anything.
So you're getting all these
different, uh, requests
from different places.
So to me, it's also,
uh, important to create
rules of engagement with
these different teams.
Make it very clear
how would they can
request help from you.
what does it look
like for you, right?
How do you need to communicate
when you get those process?
So you're creating that
level of transparency with
them to say, Hey, this,
these are the things we,
I, I generally look at when
I am thinking through what
are the things to work on?
And then making sure
you're communicating
back with them to.
Set the right expectations for
when something can be done or
if they can be done at all.
And that way you're setting
the right expectations so
you can remove a lot of those
unnecessary work, uh, and this
burnout for you in the future.
I really like that idea.
And I, I love how you're
encouraging pmms to set
the boundaries and to talk
about how they're going
to, add value, uh, with
their stakeholders and
their peers and their,
you know, supervisors
or superiors, et cetera.
with the rules of engagement,
I know me now, I feel
very confident in myself
and I, I feel confident
setting those boundaries.
Me, 10 to 15 years ago,
I think would've had
a really hard time.
So like, what are some, like
for our maybe, softer, more
junior pmms out there who
are listening, who really
want to set those boundaries,
but maybe don't quite
have the confidence yet.
Um, what are some scripts
or like what are, how, how
can you help encourage some
of those pmms to still set
those boundaries or strengthen
that muscle a little bit?
Yeah.
Such a great
question.
You know, I think it would
depend a little bit on whether
that, uh, you're trying to
set the boundary with your own
manager, your team, or versus
a, an outside party, right?
A third party, like a, a
sales team, um, stake cross
functional stakeholders.
I mean, when, when it comes
to setting boundaries with
your own manager, hopefully
you have a good rapport, first
of all, because it's really
hard to set a boundary when
you don't have a, if you're
in a toxic relationship with
your manager, unfortunately
it's very hard, right?
But assuming.
You guys are in a
decent relationship.
You respect your Manager
um, they're there to
support you and whatnot.
One of the Best reframes
I learned early in my own
career, is when I'm, trying
to state what I'm thinking
about and what I'm looking
for, um, I try to state it
from a place of curiosity
by asking questions.
instead of trying to, you
know, push my own agenda
or like judge whatever
the situation might be.
Right?
So Let's say one of the
scenarios we discuss, we
discussed before you even
jump on the podcast was,
um, let's say your manager.
you already prioritized
with your manager, and
then they come back later
and say, Hey, by the way,
here's some other stuff,
yeah.
not on a list.
What,
all the time.
which Happens all.
the time.
A hundred, a hundred percent.
What do you do at that point?
You'll be like, I so, angry.
Like, I'll be very angry.
They say, but you already.
We've already prioritized
this, why are you adding more?
Right.
That that's a
level of judgment.
But instead we can say,
okay, well let me take
a step back and I say,
Hey, you know, thanks for
sharing these things my way.
Right?
I'm just kind of
curious, how would this
change our priority?
Would our priority
stay the same?
Would, do we have some
time to look at, re-look
at our priority given this
new things you've given?
You've shared my way, right?
There's no judgment there.
It's pure questions.
Just understand and hopefully
that allows you to create a
dialogue with your manager to
discuss, oh, wait a minute.
Actually, you're right.
By throwing you these two
projects, we would have to
de tie something else, right?
That's one way of
dealing with it.
that's, so, yeah, so reframing
it so that you're, you're
coming at that conversation
when you're setting the
boundaries with a sense
of curiosity, wanting to
better yourself, wanting
to be, um, you know,
having accountability.
I think that's a really
smart way to do it, to
maintain that relationship.
Um, is there anything else,
Les, with this particular
with, for poor Josh,
who's in this scenario?
Any, any last, any last
words of wisdom you
wanna send off to him?
Um, I feel you, Josh,
and, uh, you're not alone.
And, and I will
say this, Right.
you, I definitely give the
B steps a try, like all the
things we've just mentioned
on the podcast here.
But if after trying all of
those things, you are still
super burned out and you're
not getting the support you
need, just remember to not
to remember like you have
a life outside of work,
and then consider if this
opportunity is the right one
for you to be honestly, right?
Because the, I I'm of the
belief that no job is worth
killing ourselves over, right?
Our health, you know, our
mental health, our physical
health and everything.
So make those decision for,
for yourself boundaries that
you cannot cross, right?
Like, you cannot
prioritize your way.
Out of a structural problem
That's
and a leadership problem
as a company, at some
point, no matter how much
of this work you do, you
just, you're not the right.
place, in which
That's right.
you make the call to move on.
That is so true.
I'm so glad you said that
because at s. There are
those situations where it's
something you can't fix.
It is out of your control.
And when you realize it's
outta your control and there
is a misalignment between
that and your values and how
you just wanna operate your
life, it's not worth it.
It's just a job.
Yeah,
a job.
Leave.
a hundred percent.
I think that's a great,
and to our segment here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, there's one more
response that I wanted
to walk through.
So this is from, and it
kind of goes along with
this, um, conversation
around like leadership
and, and relationships.
Um, so this is from Elena.
So Elena writes, I'm
in a really tough spot.
My leadership team, especially
my VP and chief product
officer, don't really
understand product marketing.
My ideas get shut down without
explanation, and I feel
like I have to justify why
PMM should even be involved
in strategy, product and
sales only come to me for
launch assets or one pagers.
I want to be seen as
strategic, but I feel
invisible and dismissed.
I officially feel seen.
Elena, I have been there.
Let me just say, uh, but
Ely, how do you coach someone
through something like this?
Yeah.
This is again, a very
common scenario and I
feel for you, right?
Because one of the common
things people also ask is
just around how do I become
more strategic from being
tactical and, you know,
going back to the first
prompt or, you know, segment
that we were talking about.
Product marketing has the
added challenge of having to
demonstrate its own value and
telling people what do I do?
Right?
Most companies don't, most of
other fields don't have to.
You don't have to.
An engineer does not have
to explain what I'm doing.
What is the role of
engineering, right.
A product manager doesn't
have to explain that either,
but a product marketer
have to explain to people,
this is what I do, this is
what I don't do, basically.
Right.
So so a lot of times,
unfortunately, you have the
job of setting the right
expectations with people
and also building that
rapport because chances are,
unless these people or where
you are, is a very large
established company, most
people in this roles, they
haven't really worked with
product marketing that much
or know how to work with them.
So if we want to be seen in a
different light, generally we
want to under generally the
first step is to understand
what do these people
actually care about and want.
Right?
so it's kind of like,
you know, the, the.
There's a sun.
True saying in the
art of war, right?
It's like, know yourself,
know other people.
Right?
Like first
you need to, right.
I know, right?
It's like you need to know
the other people and what they
think about and what they want
and then you know what you
can deliver for them, right?
And then you say, okay,
that's how I can solve
the problem for you.
You know, it, it, so last
year I actually wrote a
guide about how to develop
best relationship with
sales and how do you become
a trusted lead, you know,
partner with sales and move
yourself from like, being
very tactical to being a
respective partner with sales.
And so I actually talked
to sales leaders as part
of my process and most
sales leaders, they said,
to be honest, I just
don't feel like product
markets care about sales.
Like they don't understand
the sales process.
They have never been a back
carrying rep. They have never
jumped into a tense situation
with a client to understand
whether whatever they're
sharing with, you know,
have is gonna work at all.
Right.
So how can you ask for respect
from sales when you have
never really shadowed them or
Wow, that is so in insightful.
And for pmms who for the most
part we talk about our empathy
and how like we wear the,
we wear it's, we wear
the customer's shoes, but
maybe we ought to try on
the sales leader shoes
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Like if you go in the day
with the stay of the life
of sales leader, just ask
them, Hey, I, I, do you
mind if I actually even
shadow you on some things?
Right?
Like, I don't think how,
I don't think many PMs
would ask that even Right?
But I think people would
be very open, like a sales
leader would be open,
like, oh, wow, I've never
been asked, but sure.
Let me show you
what my day's like.
Right?
And then you realize
the amount of stress and
pressure they're under.
And, and here's the
thing, like it is hard
to work with sales.
Like I have, you know,
my first job was enabling
enterprise sales, like a 50
plus enterprise sales team
that were selling multimillion
dollar deals in real estate.
And then at a moment's
notice, we would have to
fly, you know, to like,
uh, 5,000 miles away Right.
On deal or
something like that.
And when you go into their
daily lives, you're like, oh
my God, this is so stressful.
No wonder my 50 page slide
deck on, you know, positioning
or what sales talk track is
not gonna work for them, so,
Yeah.
Right.
50 slides,
sometimes a hundred.
I know, right So, and
then, so when I, when I
when you dig in, right?
You gotta understand,
okay, whatever you're
providing them in terms
of materials has to be
extremely on point, succinct.
Sure.
And second is you need
to be a product champion
and product expert.
Because if they, if you give
them information that is
even remotely inaccurate,
they would look really bad
in front of their, their
prospect and that you
would, lose product, uh, you
know, credibility, right?
So, but when you focus
on those things, those
individual things, and do
them super well, and you
deliver to your partner,
you're gonna be invaluable.
And then over time,
they're gonna invite
you to their table.
They might call you up
and say, Hey, Eileen,
I have this deal.
Can you help me think
through, right, what
this would look like?
Or like, l we actually have
a deal review right now.
Do you want to join?
Because I think the insights
you brought on certain
I would,
helpful.
I would love to
join deal review.
That sounds actually really
insightful and interesting.
I know, right?
So like, so that's the point.
And then you get your seat at
the table and, you know, I'm
just giving example of sales.
But that's true for pretty
much every other team.
So again, to summarize
everything, it's just
start with the other party.
Who are you trying to
build relationship with?
Truly understand them,
deliver on very few things
very, very well consistently.
And then eventually your,
your, uh, relationship
with them is gonna change.
Yeah.
something, you mentioned
partnership a few times in
how you were explaining, um,
how to handle the situation.
And this might sound
a little crazy, but it
reminds me a little bit
about falling in love.
Not,
I love
not, not in a romantic
way, obviously.
So let me explain what I mean.
So like, for me, and,
okay, first let's talk
about romantic love.
So when something really
good happens in my life or
something really, really
stressful, like the first
person I wanna tell is my
spouse, my husband, he's
my person, he's my partner.
but that didn't
happen overnight.
I didn't just like.
You know, it's not like I met
him and then it's like, okay,
now I tell you everything.
Like, no, no.
but like people, I think form
that kind of connection, like
people don't form that kind of
connection instant instantly.
It happens over time, through
shared moments, shared
wins, shared stresses,
shared understanding.
And so if I take that same
context or that same idea
and put it in that business
context, I think like when
I have for just rattling
off some examples, like when
I have like a really good
campaign idea for a product
launch or I was interviewing
a customer and I found, I
heard a really juicy piece
of intel about a competitor.
Like I can't wait to
tell my product partner,
my sales partner.
And I think something
that you mentioned,
right, like coming to the
table with insights with.
Coming to them with
information that's useful
and interesting with
their into their world.
So I think it kind of starts
with what I'm trying to say
here is I think it starts
with bringing them into your
world and, and to have to try
to establish some of those,
the shared understanding,
the shared trust, the
shared experiences that not
make you fall in love, but
like, you know, that make
you build a partnership,
is what I'm trying to say.
So my question to you is like,
is that what you're saying?
Like that basically a PMM
in this situation, so to
Elena, like she should
shift shift from being a
PMM who builds assets to A
PMM who builds partnerships?
Is
I, yeah, absolutely.
And I think you, that's
such a great framing, right?
And I'm glad you brought
us back to, or sometimes
I digress from what I'm
trying to say here.
Yeah.
I think such a great way,
and I think the analogy
with your partner, with
your husband makes absolute
sense in this scenario.
you know, and I think
it's, it's listening to
them understand their
point of view, but then
slowly bring them over
to your world, right?
A hundred percent.
one of the things.
Just to take the same example,
let's say sales come to you
to ask for assets, right?
It doesn't mean to say,
no, I don't build assets.
Not a great way of
doing that, Right?
But you can say, Hey,
that, that's great.
Let me ask you a
bunch of questions.
Whenever I'm building assets,
these are the things I need
or I want, I wanna know about.
Then you open a dialogue
with them to ask more and
then ask, in the process
of discussing it, you
actually start guiding them.
You're literally
consulting with them to
say, Hey, actually maybe
this is not quite the
asset you need, right?
Yes.
And that's where the
value add comes in.
And then eventually
you, they realize, oh,
wait a minute, actually
you are right.
I don't need a one pager.
I just need a new talk
track for this one slide.
exactly.
That's right.
So thank you for, uh,
sharing that analogy.
I love it.
Um, okay.
So I guess when you understand
their problems and when you
show that you care about
their world and you have
those shared wins, then
people start pulling you into
theirs and that's, that's
where the magic happens.
Um, so Elena, I hope
that helps with your
situation and, Elin, thanks
for these frameworks.
They're invaluable,
so helpful.
And I feel like.
It makes me personally
feel like I have a better
approach to managing some
of those tough situations.
So hopefully it's helpful to
all of our listeners as well.
And also, if your idea or
your situation challenge was
submitted and we didn't talk
about it here, you can still
reach out to Y Lynn and,
for sure.
and get some, uh,
get some coaching.
also I think you're, you
mentioned a couple things.
You mentioned the article
that you, the report that
you did with sales, so if,
I would love to link it in
the show notes too for, um,
Absolutely.
Yeah.
For each of our segment,
I have an asset that I'm
happy to share that we
Amazing.
Thank you.
okay, now we're
transitioning to the last
final segment of our show.
This is the
messaging critique.
if you know, you know, so, uh,
as part of the, traditional
podcast, the Product Marketing
and Ventures podcast, we
do the messaging critique.
Um, so this is where as
product marketing experts, we
analyze real world messaging.
But the fun part for
this special episode is
that we let the product
marketing community
decide which companies we
were going to critique.
and when we asked the two
companies that came up
were Gong and Outreach.
So let's get into it.
Okay.
So if you don't know Gong,
gong has historically been
recognized as like the
go-to recording customer
intelligence platform,
like sale think, like
sales call recordings,
and then Outreach has.
Pretty much been hailed as
one of the greatest like sales
workflow automation tools.
but actually as yin and I
did our analysis before we're
doing this podcast recording,
we learned that there are
actually a lot more than that.
So one thing I wanna
note is that, um, this
is all about messaging.
We are not going to be talking
about which product is better.
We're not gonna talk
about feature comparisons
or anything like that.
we are here in the
pursuit of learning and
refining our craft as pm
m and so, no negativity.
Just a thoughtful,
constructive critique.
okay, so let's
start with outreach.
For those of you pmms who
want to follow along, um,
we are going to outreach.io.
Uh, so yin, based on how they
present themselves on their
website, who do you think
their target audience is?
Like, who are they talking to?
Yeah, great question.
Sales and sales reps, sales
ops are probably the people
who come up as the main ones,
uh, in terms of, uh, who
they're targeting, in my view.
And honestly, I've had some
experience with outreach
before because one of
my previous companies
actually used it and it was
bought by the sales team.
So I would say probably sales
is their number one persona.
I completely agree.
We all, I've also used
it in previous companies.
it was used primarily as
a tool for the sales team,
but I as a PMM was helping
to create outreach content.
So, so that's where I got
my taste of it, so I agree.
Um, and if you look at their
messaging, it seems so like
they've positioned themselves
as a quote unquote like AI
revenue workflow platform,
and their messaging seems
to be all about execution.
And they see the biggest, I
guess, like revenue problem
if there is one, right?
For sales, is to be
around like inconsistent
manual selling motions.
So their focus is all about
AI agents that actually
drive the workflow.
and so my question to you yin
is what's working really well
with their messaging and how
they present themselves to
Mm-hmm.
You know, that's
a great question.
I would say it's actually
quite easy to understand
what their main focus is,
uh, when it comes to like
their key sort of value prop.
To your point, I think
they're really focused, in
my view on productivity and
workflow efficiency, right?
Because it's, it's everything
they're talking about is, it's
the end to end sale solution.
And they're talk
about workflow.
Um, they're using words
like productivity, right?
increase the number of
reps hitting quota faster.
And if you read down there,
it talks about those same
language over and over.
So clearly their point of
view is if the sales team is
more efficient at whatever
they're doing across the
sales stages, right, then
you're gonna get higher
revenue at the end result.
So that messaging in my
view is pretty clear.
think so too.
I actually, and I like how
you, you pointed out exactly
like their point of view, and
I think they do a really good
job of articulating their
point of view on the market,
what the customer pain is and,
and I guess how that customer
should solve their pain.
so I I yeah, I totally
agree with you.
If you had anything to
pick on, what's something
you wish the PMM would've
done differently?
Um, at least in how
they present themselves
on the website.
Yeah.
Um, I would think more about
capabilities that they can
highlight and how, because
the capability really
showcases the how Right.
because right now what
they're showcasing a lot is
the what, and then the end
business outcome, right?
So if you think about it,
the, the value matrix in
terms of laddering, it's
the features and attributes,
it's the capabilities, and
then it's the benefits and
the business outcomes that's
related to that, right?
So I feel like it's jumping a
lot from just what it is, the
feature level, like, you know,
the product level and feature
level straight to revenue.
But what's missing is that
middle part, in my view,
is that how they do it and
how is this better than
anything else that's out
there on the market, right?
Like, I don't understand
because all it's saying is.
Okay, great.
We have a point of view
on efficiency is great.
We need more efficiency,
and how do we achieve that?
Basically, it's a bunch of
AI agents, but that's what
everybody else claims too.
Right.
So then how is it
really doing that?
What's the secret sauce?
That's the part I don't
really understand.
And related to that, what
is the core thing that
differentiates them from
everybody else that they do
better than everyone else?
That is missing, again,
because when I think about
outreach, we probably
both know outreach as the
enrichment tool for, you
know, for outbound, right?
So
Yeah.
where we buy data.
Yeah,
For SDRs.
we buy data.
We buy less than everything.
Exactly.
And that's probably still what
they're best at in my opinion.
Right.
Because why would you
lose your own competitive
differentiation and advantage?
But I feel like
they completely
downplay That Right.
It's almost like it's
gone from their messaging.
That is so true.
You know what?
Oh my gosh, this is
so interesting because
there's a lot of, I've,
I've seen some chatter.
This is all just chatter
on LinkedIn right at this
point, but that with ar that
like a, uh, BDRs and SDRs
are gonna like, eventually,
essentially go away.
I don't know how true that is.
I don't know how soon that is.
I don't think I'm quite
plugged in enough to
that micro market to
know, but that could be
a reason why that's gone.
And to your point, back
to their like point of
view around AI agents.
but yeah, I totally agree
with you and I think
like there's something
about like demystifying,
like AI agents, 'cause
everybody has an AI agent.
so I, I think there's
a little bit more
work to be done there.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
have all these solutions.
I'm just, you know, from a
messaging perspective,
I'm pointing out, right?
Like I'm, I don't know
how to solve the AI
agent problem, right?
They're talking about
here, but at least they're
sharing their point of
view, which is good.
Um.
like that.
Yeah.
But maybe a little bit
more core competency and
competi differentiation in
their messaging would help.
Because again, this,
this is, in my view right
now, this category is
very competitive, to be
honest.
Right.
And everybody's trying
to, trying to, do
say similar things.
So then what's, why would I
choose Outreach versus Gong or
Yeah.
if other software
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So making the differentiation
a little bit more prominent,
maybe bringing in some human
language into demystifying
that like AI component.
Overall, though, I, I
think it's solid messaging.
It's,
it's really good over overall.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Okay, so now let's
jump over to Gong.
Okay.
Somewhat competitive with
outreach in some ways.
Some ways they direct comp,
they directly compete in
other ways they don't.
so for those of you who wanna
follow along, it's gong.io.
Um, so yin, same thing here,
based on how they present
themselves on the website,
who's their target audience?
Still sell in my view.
Agreed.
Yes.
Even though pmms use gong
Right.
But you know, and if
you think about the
revenue centers, right?
Like it's sales, who's buying
gong pretty much all the time.
And then usually they add
some licenses for other teams.
Um, and you know, we've had
similar softwares in the past
as well, and it's always been
through sales who buy this too
Yeah, totally agree.
And so if you look at
Gong's messaging, they've
positioned themselves
as like the operating
system for revenue teams.
And I think this is so
interesting in what they're
trying to do with that.
But um, basically they're
saying like, Hey, it's
not just a tool tool.
It's not just call
recording, which is what
I've always known them for.
Um, but that foundational
layer for the entire
go-to-market motion.
And that to me is, I
just really like how
they're doing that.
but I'm curious what you
think, like from your
perspective, again, just
looking at the messaging,
what's working really well in
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, I also think they
have a different point of
view, but that point of
view is also quite obvious
in my, in my, yeah.
it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
So, I'm trying to figure out
like, um, whether their, uh,
point of view about operating
system, I'm not exactly.
sure if that is the right
word, per se, but it's
definitely different
point of view compared
to productivity alone.
Right.
And it's almost like this
is the brain or like the
backbone of the sales team,
which has a little bit
more of a strategic feeling
versus just productivity.
I completely, and that's why
I think it was very strategic
and, uh, for them to do,
I'm, we're making a lot of
assumptions here, but I think
it was kind of, I think for
Gong that was like a big bet
that they did because maybe
like, just like us, people
see gong and they're like, oh,
sales call recordings, call
recordings, call recordings.
And they were like pigeonholed
right into basically
being a call recording
sa uh, SaaS offering.
And they're like, no,
we're, we're more than that.
We're this operating system.
It kind of immediately
implies something way,
way bigger than that.
Um, and you're right, I still
don't quite know what it's,
but it's certainly something
that leaves me intrigued,
even though I'm not the ICP.
I totally hear you.
Right.
Um, and I, I think when I'm
reading a little bit deeper
into some of the ways, ways
they're doing that, it become
a little bit more obvious
because there is a focus on
data and intelligence here.
Um, right.
Because it's talked about
unifying customer insights
and then delivering
intelligence with that, right?
Because ultimately, if, if
you're just having a whole
bunch of AI strong together,
there's no insights, there's
no data, but, but with
rich, rich data, that's
first party data, right?
Like say from your Gone Call
recordings, that is extremely
powerful because real data
from your teams and not just a
bunch of AI speaking together.
and so going back to.
jumping the gun because
I know you're gonna
ask me what do I want?
What?
What are the things to
improve, Right?
About their messaging.
That needs to be much more
clear about how is this the
brain or the operating system.
Yeah.
because a lot of the
messaging, again, it goes back
to something similar, Right?
When you read deeper,
you're like, oh, again,
it's agent this, agent
that, another agent.
But when I'm reading all
of the different things,
ultimately I think their
core competency and their
competitive differentiation is
that original code recording
feature that enables a whole
lot of data and information to
be extracted that then powers
actual intelligence beyond
just workflow automation.
Yep.
I completely agree.
Yeah.
Um, it's so funny.
I think both companies
actually have to, they have
opportunity to explore more of
the how messaging and their,
and their differentiation.
a little bit more, showcasing
it a little bit more.
Um, okay.
So, these companies play,
and I think like, very
broadly speaking, like the
revenue ops market category.
I'm kinda making that up.
I don't even know if that's
like a market category,
but, but, basically both
companies want to be like
the system on record for.
Uh, sales teams
like productivity
for sales with ai.
Right.
I said this already, but like,
in some ways they compete,
in some ways they don't.
But I, I guess I wanna wrap
this up in like, key lessons
for pmms here in terms of
like, when they consider
how to position themselves
against other vendors
in, in the same market.
Like, what do you think
that big takeaway is here?
Mm-hmm.
My view is to really focus on
your ICP and be very specific
and clear on who your ICP
is, and then make sure you
are directly speaking to
them about why you are the
obvious choice to deliver.
Right on their
needs specifically.
The thing is, with
competition, all of
the stuff, right?
It's, it's helpful to
understand what competitors
are doing and, and even when
I, you know, I'm saying like,
Hey, use competitive messaging
and everything, but at the
end of the day, focusing
too much on your competition
is distracting and not
helpful, right?
It, it's much better for you
to focus on your customers
and your prospects who
matter the most, right?
And, and then write your
messaging in human ways
around what they care about.
And that's.
I completely agree with that.
Yeah.
So, um, and I know we talked
a little bit about this
as we were kind of, um,
in ahead of time trying to
prep for this session, but,
really for pmms out there,
like don't fall into the
US verse stem trap, right?
Like that's how you get into
feature comparison and nobody
wants to be stuck in feature
comparison with competitors.
So you need to think about
it as just like you said
Elin, like what is the
customer's, your ICP, what
is it that their pain,
their pain is how do you
uniquely solve that pain?
It's not about how you're,
you know, how you do
it versus someone else,
but how do you do it?
And, and this is where it
gets back to like gong and,
and outreach the how and
being able to articulate
it in a super human way.
and then what are the,
what's the outcome of that?
What's the benefit of that?
And it might be if you wanna
do some competitive, throw
some competitive in there, you
could do that same exercise.
For your competitors
or for the other
vendors in your space.
But you have to look
at it when you're
doing that exercise for
those other vendors.
You have to look at it as
if like you work for that
competitor, because that way
you're really getting into
like the headspace from,
you know, the customer's exp
perspective, what that, what
they're hearing from all the
vendors that are out there.
so I guess that's kind of
the big takeaway for me
is like, you know, how you
frame your solution and
how you frame your solution
is totally different.
Like, you know, same thing
with like gong and outreach.
Um, but yeah.
Anything you wanted
to add to that?
No, I think you put it
beautifully what, what you
said about really thinking
and putting yourself in the
shoes of your competitor
and thinking from their
point of view, um, right.
And that, and then the framing
is, it's so important as well.
So I don't have anything to
Yeah.
That's well said.
Yeah.
And I, I wanna also double
down on what, what we
learned both with Gong and
Outreach, as you pointed out.
Like they both have such
a clear, strong point
of view and it's so
interesting 'cause they
both play in the same space.
They solve, they, they both
have customers with the
same pain, but they have
different point of views
on how to solve that pain.
One is through like customer
data and one's like, no,
no, no, it's workflows.
It's all about
sales workflows.
So it's just really
interesting I think how
you're, both companies
do a really fantastic job
of, uh, clearly stating
their, um, point of
view on, on the world.
Their narratives are
just like really great.
So shout out to any Gong
and Outreach pmms out there.
You got some fans.
You guys are
Yeah, no, I think
they all did.
And hey, look, we're, we're,
we're analyzing their, um,
homepage as if they wrote
everything, but I'm sure
there has been many meetings
and back and forth and
c-suites coming in, changing
things last minute.
Right.
That is the, that's the
messy part of this, right?
So we're, yeah.
It's so funny like where
we're talking about it,
but we all know the pain of
working on these projects
Totally.
Yeah.
Yes.
And pmms rarely get
the opportunity to say,
have a say in what goes
on a website homepage.
So
Okay.
caveat, take everything we're
saying with a grain of salt.
Yeah, a hundred percent
Yes.
Okay.
So Eila and I always try
to make space on the show
or, or my podcast for a
moment of gratitude because
in product marketing we
never get here alone.
Um, we're always doing
it with each other and
learning from each other.
Um, so before we wrap up, I
just wanna say genuine, thank
you so much for sharing your
expertise to giving us the,
the rating, the resume, and
all your resume secrets and
tips and, you know, giving
Josh and Elena and any pmms
out there who are going
through tough situations
and sharing all of that,
guidance was so helpful.
We're the PMM community.
Lucky to have you.
So thank you so much.
Oh, that's my honor.
And thank you, uh, they're
lucky to have you and,
uh, I've absolutely
enjoyed our conversation
and I really appreciate
the value added insights
you have in our podcast.
Um, and you know, which
has made for really rich
discussion, so appreciate
what you're doing.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's so much fun.
We're, I just love the product
marketing world is just great.
And on that note, I know, um,
none of us get here alone, as
I stated, and very often we
are shaped by the people that
we surround ourselves with.
So just wanted to give you
a chance to give a shout out
to maybe one or two pmms who
have brought you to where
you are today and helped you
roone your craft as a PMM.
yeah.
Um, there are two people.
Number one is my first boss.
His name is Deepak.
And, um, he was the person
who brought me into PMM when
I had no PMM background.
Gave me a chance to, you know,
become one and, train me and
mentor me on how to do sales
enablement, to be honest.
And just really think from
that clear point of view.
And I think to this date,
he's one of the people who
I think have the absolute
best interpersonal skills
on building relationship
with other teams.
And I learned a lot of those
techniques actually from him.
Um, so absolutely brilliant
leader and mentor.
The second person I would
like to thank is Martina
Chenko, who wrote the book,
loved how to, you know, uh.
Market products,
tech products.
And um, so we actually
connected on LinkedIn
many years ago.
I asked some questions,
she asked me some questions
and just had her informal
mentor mentee relationship
where she mentored me.
And um, and over time we just
became really good friends.
And recently I saw
her in San Francisco.
She's absolutely
influenced how I think
about product marketing.
We talk about product
marketing topics all the time,
and, um, recently got to do
some business partnership
together, which is always fun.
But more importantly, yeah.
But more importantly, um,
she's also somebody who,
is a important and powerful
voice for underrepresented
individuals in tech and
in product marketing.
You know, coming from an
immigrant, woman of color
background I really resonated
with her background.
and so just, you know,
it's very inspiring.
to Kind of going through that
journey because, you know,
part of, the reason why I
like to go on podcasts and
share my voice is also to
have that voice, right.
And, and Have that
representation.
because when I was growing
up in my career and, and
sort of being an early
career person, I never had
role models who looked at
me or talk like me, right?
People who have an
accent And it's okay,
you to have that.
people
confident in
right.
Feeling confident in my voice.
maybe I don't have the
typical experience of a
product marketer, right?
But I'm able to, you know,
have this conversation with
you that's very meaningful.
And I wouldn't have been
here without people like her
setting that example and,
and giving me the confidence
to do things like this.
Yeah.
Oh, I bet they're
so proud of you.
Oh, I can't, I can't wait.
I can't wait till they
hear that little shout out.
Oh, thank you.
Okay, Ely, so this is my
last question for you.
Where else can everyone
access your expertise?
Is it bets to find
you on LinkedIn?
Yes, absolutely.
LinkedIn?
is the place I post my
thoughts on a weekly
basis, usually daily.
So definitely follow along
and, and if you wanna dig
deeper, I have a newsletter
where I share more in depth
insights and I write once a
month, um, uh, about different
topics in product marketing.
Feel free to go on my website,
sign up and if you are okay
with putting a link there, um,
for my newsletter, that'll be
Absolutely, yes.
We will link everything
in the show notes,
don't you guys worry.
perfect.
Again, thank you so much,
Ely, and thank you PMM
listeners for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in your own journey.