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Engaging conversations around navigating generational communication
Karen Krawczyk
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[00:00:00]
Alastair Greener: Hello, and welcome to the Alistair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and showing practical tips on how we can all build stronger intergenerational connections.
So today my guest is an author, a fellow author, I should say, a facilitator and retirement coach who spent much of her career as a speech and language therapist in the NHS. After leaving at the age of 60, she invested in new skills and created a varied portfolio life, combining work, volunteering, personal interests, and a renewed sense of purpose.
And I'm really keen to talk about that later. So today we're gonna talk about what she's seeing through her work with people approaching retirement. We're gonna talk about retirement and how it's changing and why the experience can be maybe more [00:01:00] complex than expected. And finally, we're going to be looking at the importance of purpose, connection, and the lessons we can learn from Blue Zones.
If you don't know what the Blue Zones are, don't worry. We'll tell you all about it. So anyway, it's a great, great opportunity to talk to Karen Krafty. Good morning.
Karen Krawczyk: Good morning, Alistair. Lovely to be with you, and as I said, this is my first podcast, so it's very exciting. Thank you for the
Alastair Greener: Who knows, you might become addicted to this now and appear in all sorts of podcasts. And the reality is, it's just a great opportunity to just have a conversation with someone. And you know, as I mentioned in the introduction, I like to talk to people across generations, but also talk about different things with generations.
And I'm not sure I've really spoken to someone who's a retirement expert before, and it's something that is gonna affect every single one of us, even Gen Z, are gonna be eventually looking at, at it. Clearly none of us when we were their age, we even thinking of [00:02:00] retirement. But clearly it's something that's going to affect us all.
And of course, retirement is changing as well. Let's come to that later. First of all, I always like to start off with you who's, who's Karen Kraft? Are you typical of your generation? You are a, a, kinda like a late boomer, if you like a younger boomer. Uh, what was life like for you growing up? Um, are you a typical boomer?
Are you typical of that post-war generation, even though you are a late boomer?
Karen Krawczyk: interesting. And I remember my, one of my children saying to me, mom, you were born only 14 years after the war. And that's quite an interesting way to put things. Um, I grew up in a small seaside village in the southwest of, of Scotland. It was in idyllic childhood where, you know, nowadays you would maybe be called feral, but in those days we were allowed to roam and do whatever we want.
And we learned resilience. We learned to sort of sort ourselves out [00:03:00] and, and be fairly independent. You know, it was a small seaside village. And I think another thing that influenced me was an awareness of, um, the diversity, not necessarily of race or colour, but of privilege and class. Um, so yeah, so I grew up in a small en environment, um, and, and that shaped me and I think I've gone into the retirement sphere partly, um, because my parents died before I was, uh, through university.
So never experienced sort of seeing role models or parental role models move into that space and, and enjoy it hopefully. So perhaps my sort of decision to write a book about retirement has been because of that, um, experience.
Alastair Greener: And I think what you've highlighted there as well is a lot of the traits that you grew up with [00:04:00] were traits that were often associated with Gen X. You know, that freedom, you know, the word feral is sometimes used for that generation because, you know, leave the house, come back at whatever time and so on.
And because you were that much later than the early boomers who were literally, um, straight after the war, and they were growing up in fairness to, to some of them, they were even experiencing rationing still if they were born literally in 1946. So clearly that upbringing is very different to, to your upbringing being brought up in, you know, in the early sixties.
And you know, that that will have, have without question shaped you. Do you think? And, and, and again, that sense of community, that being in a small environment, you, you do see people who are not like you because that's the nature of rural communities, isn't it? You, you know, you, you get everybody in that melting pot and people weren't travelling as much in those days.
So it was very much inward looking [00:05:00] to, to where you were. And that clearly will have shaped, um, a a, a lot of people.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah, and I
Alastair Greener: growing up, so yeah, carry.
Karen Krawczyk: that, that very much that intergenerational, you know, there was lot, lots of people of different ages and different stages in their lives. So, you know, it was very easy. I was very comfortable and it, you know, you had great experience and sort of managing to communicate with all of those generations, which I realised now is a great privilege.
And you know, we weren't siloed into just into, and we weren't in a little bubble. It was quite a big bubble, although it was quite a small community in some respects. So there's that
Alastair Greener: I think that's a,
Karen Krawczyk: really.
Alastair Greener: that's a big advantage. I mean, I live in a, in a relatively small village, 2000 people, and I would say we have that good fortune as well, that we see people of all generations. And one of the things I particularly love in our community, which I'm sure is echoed throughout [00:06:00] the uk and in fact the world, is the fact that young people are brought up knowing their parents and their grandparents' friends.
And their attitude towards older people is possibly different from maybe more urban areas where they don't get that opportunity to mix with them. And that, again, shapes their, their perspectives. So growing up, did you get to then travel and have your eyes opened by different, um, environments at an early age, or did that take you a while before that happened?
Karen Krawczyk: No, that took me a while. I think the, the only experience was age seven. My father had a boat come into the, the harbour. Um, and it was from Belgium. So I, I was, my claim to fame is I was one of the first people to experience seven up 'cause. So that was my experience. But it was very apart from, you know, the experience of this Belgian, uh, sort of green, green, um, boat coming in, there was nothing very much, it [00:07:00] was a very enclosed, I didn't travel till much later in life.
Alastair Greener: And what drew you to a career in the NHS, which of course, again, that whole career that you had will have again framed a lot of your thinking.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah. Um, I think there was a desire to, there was a bit of maybe psychology that I was interested in how people tick. There was a sense of working one-to-one. There was a sense of being useful and language. I was really interested in how language develops and also how it, what happens when it break breaks down.
And just building relationships with people being useful, um, helping them in, in what might be difficult circumstances.
Alastair Greener: And we all know that the communication with the NHS, and I should say for, you know, this podcast goes to 25 different countries. So the NHS being, uh, Britain's National Health Service, which is, I think it's, I [00:08:00] think it's unique in the world in terms of what it offer offers, the fact that it's, it, it, it's free health service at the point that's needed.
Um, it's not an insurance based system like most countries in the world today. But of course, that has evolved massively from its inception in 1946, immediately post-war to where it is today. And you will have seen it in your time, how it's helped to adapt a, to technological evolution, but also to societal evolution.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah, absolutely. And also with, you know, with a growing elderly population, you know, there's a large demographic of older people, and with older people there comes complexity. You don't tend to get an older person going into the health service with one condition. And yet, you know, we've got, we have consultancies in certain professions where, you [00:09:00] know, I think we need to catch up in, in dealing with the complexity of conditions that we maybe see.
Um, and I suppose it's a bit like yourself, you know, with the intergenerational it's about no longer being in a silo. It's being able to collaborate, being interdependent, and just being able to understand people working in across different specialties.
Alastair Greener: And, and you also have that unique environment that you, well, not unique, but unusual, the fact that you literally have from cradle to grave in, in your world of the NHS and anyone involved in healthcare, I know you will specialise in certain areas and you can specialise in looking after the elderly versus looking after children.
But you are, especially if you're a gp, um, in general practise, that you will be having everybody coming through your door and the need to change your communication style according to who you [00:10:00] are talking to. It must be something that's fascinating to you as a language expert.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah, absolutely. And you would, you, you know, you're, you're gearing your sort of words and how you communicate with every different patient, you know, sort of making an assumption or making an adjustment depending on, you know, what do you think they're, listen, what do you think? Are they listening? Are they able to take on, on board?
What are the emotions that are arising? How, how well are they able to listen or do you need to give them, give the information in different formats? So, you know, listening and communication, um, apart from being intergenerational is sort of individual as well.
Alastair Greener: I'll come to your, your core focus, which is today, um, towards those people who are retiring and looking at being healthy in older age and how important that is and what a, a tremendous difference it can make to people [00:11:00] as they get to, should we say the autumn years of their life. But I just wanna touch on something very quickly about the younger generations coming in because people are fascinated with Gen Z and those younger generations and looking at healthcare.
What are you seeing with those younger generations coming in, in terms of their expectations, in terms of how they deal with the, the, a career in the NHS? What differences are you seeing with people today versus maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago?
Karen Krawczyk: Well, I suppose, I mean, I, I've left now for about six years. Um, and I think, you know, the expectations of the workforce are different and I think they're, we were probably, um, I think my generation's a bit more hierarchical, so we would sort of respond to people in hierarchy telling us, or advising us [00:12:00] or directing us to what to do.
Whereas I think the young generation are a bit more questioning, um, that can maybe be seen as being difficult or obstructive. Um, and I think, you know, there is a large older generation within the NHS at the moment, and that's maybe one of the, one of the issues. But, you know, I think we need to understand, we need to listen and realise that some of the behaviours, um, are not maybe what we seem, and again, I, I feel it boils down to listening, you know, having good listening skills.
You know, and I think you and I talked earlier in another conversation about curiosity and how important that is. So it's about being curious and about listening Well.
Alastair Greener: You, you mentioned at the beginning about losing your parents when you were quite young, and that that was possibly one of the drivers that took you into the area that you're now focused in [00:13:00] and the fact that you've written about it as well. Were there any other things that drew you to towards the older people and not so much older people?
I mean, of course if you're Gen Z, you know, if you are over 50, you are ancient, you know, um, you know, there'll be jaw dropping, the fact you're even still alive. But those of us who are older recognise that actually there's a, a great potential of a huge quality of life and actually a whole new chapter of your life that can happen towards, uh, retirement age.
So was there anything else that, that sort of drove you in, in the direction that you took?
Karen Krawczyk: Well, I think there's a golden thread, as I mentioned earlier, maybe about being useful, and that's what took me into speech and language therapist and I to be, uh, and so that, and I realised, I think, as I say, conversation, and we've talked about the conversations being important, conversations move you along.
And I felt that when I left the NHS there [00:14:00] was few conversations to have about retirement. Um, and I wanted to, um, with writing the book and doing my workshops, I wanted to increase the number of conversations, the workshops we've had, the, one of the most important things people have found was the ability to have a space to be able to converse and talk about the emotions that surround retirement, the uncertainty, the anxiety, the fear, and feel that you're not alone.
Alastair Greener: And, and, and that's been proven time and time again, isn't it? That if people just communicate, have an opportunity to talk about whatever subject it is that communication is, can lead onto so many valuable findings. And when it comes to that conversation about retirement, what, you know, you talked about the fears, [00:15:00] the anxiety and so on.
So what do you do in your work to actually make that a little bit less anxious and, you know, some, hopefully more positive experience for people.
Karen Krawczyk: I think, um, just help them understand that you're not alone, that these feelings are not unique, and that you are unique and you will find the answers to what gives you a happy and rewarding retirement if you're reflecting upon yourself and your life. Um, and, you know, so I would give op have exercises and opportunities to reflect on what's been important to you.
What are your values? What are your knowledge and skills? What makes you tick? What's given you joy in the past? So reconnecting, and that was the word I used when I left. I don't like the word retire, so, you know, I'm [00:16:00] reconnecting with who I was and where I, and what I want to sort of work on.
Alastair Greener: And, you know, we, we talked about this, the, the other day about having that need for value, feeling needed still. And, you know, for, for you and I, it's great because we are in jobs and freelancing that we can carry on as long as, uh, people want to listen to us and want to hear what we've got to say. Where some people literally, you know, fall off a cliff when they retire, it's literally they walk out the door, that's it.
It's closed, it's gone. And I, I can't even imagine what that must feel like, especially if you don't have a plan.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah. And I think, you know, there's been a lot of talk about, you know, being a bit deliberate, being a bit intentional about what you're hoping to do, um, and, and meaning and purpose is so integral. You know, you talked about the blue zones and there's no [00:17:00] word in Japanese for retirement, for say, you know, and they talk about Ikigai, you know, so it's that, um, happy spot where things intersect.
So you've got meaning and purpose. You've, you're giving something into the world, but something that you're good at and that perhaps you can get some reward from, whether it's financial or otherwise. So,
Alastair Greener: When you're, when you're talking to, to people and they know what you do, the, the conversation I guess comes round to, well, when should I start thinking about post-retirement? Because some people, you know, let's be honest, they, you know, many aren't in jobs that they enjoy. It's almost waiting for that moment and they look forward to it so much, and the focus is towards it.
But actually when it comes, it's like, oh my goodness. Now what? So a when should people start thinking about retirement and what sort of plans, what sort of thoughts [00:18:00] should they be having?
Karen Krawczyk: Um, mm Well, I, from my experience, I decided a couple of years before I was going to retire and I made it very clear. So I shaped other people's expectations. 'cause it's not only a transition for you, it's a transition for the people that are close to you and are around you. So I was very clear I was leaving age 60 and Purs going to pursue something else.
So it's about being deliberate, being intentional I think is really helpful. Um, having some sort of structure, thinking about what work has meant to you though, although, you know, we always see the negatives and in order to leave we need to focus on the negatives, you know, the stress, the pressure, particular relationships.
But we forget, you know, what the good things, the positive things that we [00:19:00] get from, from work, you know, with the connections, the camaraderie, um, the feeling, you know, being purposeful. Have people asking for our opinion. So there, and maybe there's some, there's just an authoritative, um, air that we have.
We've been able, we've given and supported people for a number of years, so that's, there's going to be a loss. So it's about preparing for it. It's a major transition. And how have you prepared for those previous transitions in your life? 'cause there will have been many and that's a good indicator of how you are going to, to work in this one and how you're going to prepare for that.
Alastair Greener: People are going to, yeah, no, absolutely. People are gonna have family and friends who recognise the i I I guess the, the, that that whole process of retirement and recognising that their loved ones around them are [00:20:00] approaching that stage. What advice would you give to, um, to people whose parents or friends or colleagues are approaching that stage?
How can they help those people looking towards retirement? Is there a role for them?
Karen Krawczyk: Purpose ask, asking questions, asking what their expectations are. You know, I think sometimes people will see, oh my goodness, you're retiring so you'll have lots of time on your hands. I know how to fill it. You know, but, you know, so what are the, if you've got, if you've got children, are you expecting your, your parents to sort of, to support you in that way?
And it's about having those honest conversations and, and what are your expectations around for this? And being curious, being open, asking lots of open questions. And as I say, everyone's unique and what is right for them, um, [00:21:00] isn't maybe right for you. What I've done is not right for everyone. Um, as I say, I went redirect, but, and the word retire is a bit of a tricky one anyway, you know, I didn't want to withdraw, you know, it wasn't, um, it was something, 'cause that seems something negative.
I wanted it to be something positive. Um.
Alastair Greener: the challenge, isn't it? 'cause it's a word that's instantly recognisable. We know what it means, but at the same time it has a huge amount of connotation associated with it that you've made very clear that you don't want any part of which I completely understand. And again, I, I guess language is really important when you're talking to people who are at that stage of life.
How has retirement changed over the last, say, 20, 30, 50 years in terms of the way that people are approaching it? Because we might have preconceptions of retirement for ourselves, but also for [00:22:00] those around us that actually might not be accurate in 2026.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah. And I think, you know, we still have, certainly I do in my head, you know, the notion of pipe and slippers and getting a clock on your retirement. But, you know, and because there's all these words coming out, retire, refire, reconnect, redirect, you know, and I think retirement isn't a clean word. It's not a word that everybody has the same understanding of.
Everybody has a different notion of it. Um, they don't, as I say, they don't have the, the word retirement in Japanese, in in Spanish. It's jubilation. Jubilation. So you, and you know, it, it's about unpicking. What does that word retirement mean, and what does it mean for me? And, you know, I think it is difficult because there aren't any expectations.
You know, you could see it as the great unknown, [00:23:00] or as you mentioned earlier, the cliff edge, you know, but there isn't the same, um, there's lots of decisions to be made, whereas before, I think it used to be much more sort of orderly, much more, um, defined what retirement was. I think it's very open these days, and I think that does lead to bit uncertainty.
Well, how should I behave in this space? What is right for me? Um, you know, it's, it's tricky. And, and we maybe
Alastair Greener: funny, isn't it?
Karen Krawczyk: yeah,
Alastair Greener: No. Sorry. I I was just gonna say that it, it's funny that sometimes when we are given more choice, it becomes more perplexing at the same time. And you know, although it's a real positive that you don't have to be defined by what we might have known as retirement, where today, uh, you can do something differently.
But that means, oh my goodness, me, I, I, I've, I'm more of a crossroads here than I thought I was going to be. And, [00:24:00] and I love the fact that people are making more of the next stage. We call it the next stage of, of your life, because that's a more positive approach and there's a lot that people can do in this next stage.
We're all should be hopefully living longer and healthier and therefore have a good length of life in that final stage, should we say, of, of, of our lives, or not necessarily the final stage, but certainly in that, um, that era that we are now in, you know, things like the University of the Third Age and other organisations that are focused on people making the most of that stage of life.
What are some of the things that you suggest to people who, they have now got to that point and they're now looking at what to do? What are the kind of conversations you have with them?
Karen Krawczyk: Um, well, we look, we look at their values, we look at their, um, [00:25:00] and what's important to them. I've got a wonderful list of 60 activities that you can look to see. Is there anything you've, you fancy, um, you know, you might do, um, a SWOT analysis. What's your strengths? What your, what's your opportunities? Um, I advise them to say yes.
You know, say yes. Uh, do it once and then if you don't like it, you don't need to do it again. But about being open again, being intentional, um, and looking back, but, you know, most importantly, keep connected. Have a purpose. What's going to get you up in the morning. Build a bit of a structure. Um, so all of these things, but it's finding out what is unique about you and taking time to sort of stay in that, that bit of that messy middle.
After you've retired, don't just jump into something else. Take some time to process and think and reflect. It's not [00:26:00] comfortable, but the longer you stay in there, the most, the more rewarding it is and the less likely you're going to sort of be surrounded by at your 90th birthday and think, oh, I wish I'd done something else.
You
Alastair Greener: Well, that's what they say all the time, don't they? We don't regret the things we do. We regret the things we don't do. And you talked earlier on there about purpose, and I'd like to finish up with that really, because, you know, I mentioned in the beginning about the Blue Zones and for those, um, of you who are not familiar with Blue Zones, it's um, areas of the world which have been identified where people seem to live longer and live healthier.
And there's a huge amount of research going into, um, why that is. And of course there's diet, there's lifestyle, a lot of those things. But one of the things seems to be that comes out strong is the sense of community and the sense of purpose. And you talked about it there, Karen, you know, having a [00:27:00] reason to get up in the morning.
All of those kind of things are essential for everybody at in Venice, at whatever stage of life. But certainly if you want to have a long, healthy life, um, once you've got to that stage, shall we say, it is absolutely crucial. So again, what advice do you give a, to people who are in that position, but also those around them, their relatives, those other generations who are looking at them to help them have that purpose and make sure that they don't give up and they don't just go on that sort of slow wind down.
Karen Krawczyk: Yeah. Just again, yeah. What, what gives you purpose? I mean, as I say, volunteering gives me purpose. Um, and the charity sort of closed last year 'cause of funding, and I thought, I need to find something else that gives me purpose. My strong values are learning and growth, so [00:28:00] that gives, you know, so I'm wanting to learn, you know, coming on the podcast today, deciding to write the book.
That all gives me purpose. So it's defining what is purpose for you and all the wellbeing models in this country and, and around the world. Sort of talk about meaning and purpose. They talk about hope and optimism. They talk about identity and empowerment. So it's making sure that you've got, that you're thinking about all these things as you move into that space, beyond work that's going to
Alastair Greener: And what's your objective with, what's the objective of, of your books? What do you want people to get out of them? What do you want them to feel as a result of reading them?
Karen Krawczyk: I want them as opposed to feel inspired, to feel that they're not alone, but also to start that conver, to start these conversations with other people, to find, to be inspired by, um, other people about what they're doing. Get some [00:29:00] ideas. Um, I get it's about sparking conversations. It's about seeing, oh yeah, there's different ways of doing things and, and again, maybe building a community, um, a around that.
So conversation and curiosity is huge, I think in, in, in healthy ageing.
Alastair Greener: Yeah. And I think that's, you're absolutely right because it's curiosity by the person who's ageing, but also by those people around. And if you want to help somebody that you know and love, who is at that stage of their life, being curious and asking questions and things like that is, is so, so important.
And it, it's a lovely way to bookend our conversation. Really. We started off, um, about communication and your workers, um, in, in the NHS with, uh, language and speech. And the fact that that continues right through to the work you're doing today shows the [00:30:00] value of having those conversations. So Karen, thank you so much for joining me today.
I hope you've enjoyed it. I've certainly learned a huge amount, uh, from you and you've made me think about some of the things that, not just for me, but other people around me when it comes to that stage of life and how to make the most of it. So thank you very much.
Karen Krawczyk: No thank you, Alistair. It's a pleasure.
Alastair Greener: Well, I hope you're gonna do lots more podcasts because you've got a lot to say and a lot of help that you can give people.
Karen Krawczyk: Oh, thank you. But I, I, yeah. I'm thinking, oh my God, you said be short and concise and I'm not. I'm going on and on and on.
Alastair Greener: That's absolutely fine. Hey, this is what we do for a living. Hey, Karen, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time, and thank you for joining us as well. I'll be back again in two weeks time with another podcast talking about another generational issue. Bye for now.
The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was [00:31:00] recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.