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Pastor Matt Brown, Justin Pardee and Stephanie Keen walk through Luke 11 and questions from Sandals Church community groups about what happens when God speaks, what to do with your herbs and how to know if God is saying “no.”
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
He'd be in there crowing, dude.
Stephanie Schaefer:Is that how a rooster sound? Yeah. He wakes up every morning. It's like involuntary.
Matt Brown:Touchdown Jesus approves.
Justin Pardee:Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to episode double o seven of the Debrief podcast. The James
Stephanie Schaefer:Bond of the debriefs. No. No. No.
Justin Pardee:Oh, that's Mission Impossible movie.
Matt Brown:That was my childhood hero. Now it's Jesus, but it was James Bond.
Justin Pardee:Exactly, dude. The Debrief
Stephanie Schaefer:podcast Wisdom and stature.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Exactly.
Matt Brown:In favor with God and man.
Justin Pardee:We are your friends here at Sandals Church. I am Justin Pardee.
Stephanie Schaefer:I am Stephanie Keen.
Justin Pardee:And we are here with the man, the myth, the legend, pastor Matt Brown. Duh. Yes.
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm practicing that. Anyway, so every week here on the podcast, we are taking questions from folks in our community groups here at Sandals Church and getting them in front of pastor Matt so he can help us learn some more and dig a little deeper into the bible.
Justin Pardee:So before we get into this week's questions, I just jumped into the iTunes store before we started. We now have seventy six five star reviews. Yes. And zero anything other than five stars.
Stephanie Schaefer:That's like go to that Mexican food place on Yelp.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah. That is right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Justin Pardee:Get the chimichanga. Get the chimichanga. That's like when in when in doubt, get a deep fried burrito covered in cheese. So hold on. We got let me let me hit you up with we have some awesome reviews that came in since this last week.
Justin Pardee:So the first one, this is great. This is from Harry Harold.
Matt Brown:I love it.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Harry Harold.
Stephanie Schaefer:Like your spirit animal?
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly. Here we go. So he structured it with a series of pros and cons. Con, after each episode, I spent about a half hour picking my mind up off the floor because it exploded.
Justin Pardee:This eats into time for other activities. Pros, everything else. This podcast is great for anyone wanting a deeper understanding of God and the Bible. So thanks, Carrie Harold. Okay.
Justin Pardee:This we got another one. This is awesome from Matt Scott, aka Big Red. Yes. That's what it actually says on the iTunes. It's really good and it gets me through math homework.
Justin Pardee:This blows my mind. I can barely get through this podcast just sitting here trying to talk to you guys in process.
Stephanie Schaefer:I can barely do math without anything else going on.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Big Red's over there doing, you know, fancy edition.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Clearly brilliant. Exactly. Thank you for coming to Sandals and raising our collective IQ.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Exactly. He's probably doing long division while he's thinking about
Stephanie Schaefer:police. Should probably recruit this guy.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Okay. One more from lame sauce knocks. The debrief yeah. By the way, dude, don't come against yourself like that.
Justin Pardee:Maybe you're awesome sauce. The debrief is a great way to deeply explore pastor Matt's sermon in the Sandals Church Podcast form. I love the rapport between pastor Matt, Justin, and Stephanie, as well as their offered insight. And here we go, guys. Please keep talking about food, Justin.
Justin Pardee:I've yet to meet a person who doesn't like to eat.
Matt Brown:It's not that you like to eat. It's that you worship food. That's the issue. Yeah. We like food.
Justin Pardee:Chimichanga is the question.
Matt Brown:I was like How's the day?
Justin Pardee:Well, let's jump in. We got a whole bunch of questions this week, and this one's awesome. All of our questions this week are coming from Luke 11. Everyone has been ahead of the game this week. So we have a jam packed q and a time ahead of us.
Stephanie Schaefer:We sure do. So I'm gonna kick off with our first question that actually kind of ties with your sermon this weekend was pretty heavily on the portion of Luke 11 about prayer. So one question I have is, from Luke eleven thirteen. He says, so if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give the holy spirit to those who ask him? And I think a lot of us look at that verse in that passage thinking that we can ask God for anything.
Stephanie Schaefer:Does this last verse mean that Jesus is only really talking about the holy spirit there?
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. It doesn't. So in in the gospel of Matthew, it's framed, your heavenly father will give good gifts to those who ask him. So Matthew chooses the terminology good gifts.
Matt Brown:Luke uses the term the greatest gift that we can receive, which is God's spirit within us. And so, basically, the whole point of that passage is we can trust God to be good. So when we ask for something, perhaps something evil, God's going to override that, and and he's going to give us something good because he loves us intrinsically. And so the point of that is Jesus is is telling us, man, your father in heaven, know, your Abba, your father. We talked about Romans eight.
Matt Brown:He's going to give you the things you truly need. We we can trust God to be 100% kind in the way that he responds to us. And so it doesn't mean, you know, that we're going to get everything that we ask for, because sometimes, like I said, the answer is no Mhmm. Or or the answer is wait. But in this instance, you know, we have to remember where where Luke's taking us.
Matt Brown:He's going to take us to the book of Acts. And so what we need as human beings, the greatest need that we have is God's spirit living inside of us. And that can't happen until Christ dies on the cross, raises from the dead, and we wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, the helper, the paraclete, the great the one the great counselor. And so Luke is we have to remember it. We can't just read the gospel of Luke based upon the gospel of Luke.
Matt Brown:We must always read it in context with Acts. It's the same book, you know, volume one, volume two. And so he has a whole perspective that he's taking to. And so Luke has adjusted Matthew's rendering of this story. And and by adjusted, I mean, Jesus probably talked, you know, for three years.
Matt Brown:So there's all kinds of material to pull from. So it's not like Jesus talked about this one time, and there's only one way that they can quote Him. There's many different ways where Jesus can teach the same principle and tweak it at the end in different ways. And so the principle here is is that we can come to God persistently over and over again, asking God for what we think we need. And that's the key.
Matt Brown:Do you really believe that you need this? And if you do, Jesus says, come. Act shamelessly. You know, Just literally knock down the the the doors of heaven asking for what you want. And the promise here is that God will answer our prayer.
Matt Brown:And so again, don't get so caught up or wrapped up in, you know, am I gonna get what I want or what I think I need? The point here is to, you know, repeatedly ask God for that and let him decide. Mhmm. Because God's going to decide from his perspective, which he understands what we need and he understands what's good for us. So to summarize, no.
Matt Brown:God's not just gonna give you the holy spirit, but that is the greatest gift. And so the point here is the god who gives you the most incredible gift you could ever have, the holy spirit, god's spirit living inside you, that same god wants you to come to him and ask for other things.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. You just used the word paraclete. Yeah. What what is that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So that's the Greek word helper. So that's the actual word that the gospel of John uses to refer in the Greek language to the Holy Spirit. And so that means helper, counselor, friend, adviser. So it can be translated in multiple ways.
Matt Brown:But that's what Jesus says in I think it's John fourteen and fifteen when he's talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit. He's saying, I'm gonna send you this helper.
Justin Pardee:Got
Matt Brown:it. And that's what we need is, mean, that's what we all need, right, to get through life is we need divine guidance, divine help. And that's what the Holy Spirit's job is inside of us, is to guide us and to teach us what it means to be a follower of Jesus and how to become like Him in the way we think, act, and feel.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So Misty actually wrote in and she asked, does the Holy Spirit enter us? Does God give us the Holy Spirit right when we're saved and become Christians, or does that happen at a different point in our spiritual maturity?
Matt Brown:Right. So thank you, Misty. That's a great question. And the answer to that question really depends upon the theology of the church that you attend. I believe that the Bible is pretty clear, but my charismatic friends, whom I love very much, see this differently in many ways.
Matt Brown:Some charismatic some of my charismatic friends agree with me. What I believe the clear teaching of scripture is is this, is that the moment you repent of your sin and you believe in Jesus Christ and you invite him into your life, I think that that's a real request that God answers. And it goes back to the question that Stephanie asks. Right? Ask for anything, and I will give you the Holy Spirit.
Matt Brown:So when we ask for Jesus, when we ask for God in our lives, and we repent of our sins, the Bible guarantees that we will receive the Holy Spirit. So the moment we become born again, we become children of God. And that's the case that Paul's making in Romans eight, that we have placed he has placed the spirit of God in our hearts that cries out, Abba Father. We become a child of God, and we have the full Holy Spirit in our lives. Not partial, we're not waiting for more, but we have the full Holy Spirit in our lives the moment we become saved.
Matt Brown:Now here's where I think charismatics are right.
Justin Pardee:Can you define charismatics really quickly?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Charismatics are Pentecostals. There's all kinds of words to describe them, but they're they're churches that really emphasize the Holy Spirit. And I think some of that's good, and some of it's become bad. Okay.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, charismatic churches emphasize the power of the Holy Spirit, you know, living in a vibrant connection with God's spirit in our lives that's manifested through specific things that I don't wanna get to in this podcast. We'll get to it when we get to the book of Acts and we talk about the gift of tongues and and prophecy and all those things later on. We'll need to save that for later podcasts. But but that's what I mean by charismatics. So sometimes they used be called holy roller churches.
Matt Brown:I don't know if that's what they're called anymore. But they're great people of God, great Christians of God, but they believe in a secondary experience. And so some some let me clarify, because not all charismatics would agree with me on this. They believe in a secondary experience with the Holy Spirit. So you have an experience with Christ, and then there's a secondary experience.
Matt Brown:And we'll deal with that from my understanding as we get into the the book of Acts. I believe that when you become born again, instantaneously, you have the Holy Spirit in your life without measure. You're not we're not waiting for more of the Holy Spirit. Mhmm. Having said that, we all can experience different encounters with the Holy Spirit in Christ, in new ways, in radical ways.
Matt Brown:Right? It's not just like you get one experience. You're gonna have multiple experiences in your life with the Holy Spirit. But the the experience is with the spirit that already resides in you. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so those are just encounters, deeper levels of awareness, incredible experiences in worship, prayer, through prophecy. All of those things can happen, but it's with the spirit that's already inside you. If you don't have the holy spirit, you are not a believer in Jesus. Mhmm. If you are a true believer in Jesus Christ, you have the Holy Spirit living inside you, because Jesus promised.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:He promised that that you would have Him the moment that you believed. And that's why He that's actually how He comforts His disciples. He says He says, don't worry. You know, I'm leaving. And He doesn't say, And you might get the Holy Spirit.
Matt Brown:Yeah. He promises that you will receive the Holy Spirit. And that's key for us as believers is because we have the Holy Spirit living inside us. The Holy Spirit participates in our worship when we gather together collectively. He is the presence of God that is with us now.
Matt Brown:So I don't know if that answers your question.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. I think it's good. That was good. And we'll sounds like we'll continue to talk about that over the course of the year with the two fifty two series.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And it's important that we address these issues as they come along so that we can we can experience that, especially in the book of Acts when the Holy Spirit really takes center stage. So right now it's it's about Jesus.
Justin Pardee:Yep.
Matt Brown:But Luke is telling us Holy Spirit's coming, and he's dropping these little clues just like when he says, Jesus full of the Holy Spirit. Right? Yep. He's making those cases. The apostles in the book of Acts, full of the Holy Spirit.
Matt Brown:And you're gonna see this. And so the Christian, the born again Christian is full of the Holy Spirit. But we're gonna see how that happens in the book of Acts.
Stephanie Schaefer:Cool. Keeping on the subject of prayer from Luke 11, Jesus in Jake's group had a question from verse eight. If you keep knocking long enough, he will get up and give you whatever you need because of your shameless persistence. So how long can we just how can we discern an answer of no to our prayers versus to just keep on shamelessly persisting in prayer?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I would say, if you believe that you need something, you know, pray pray to the very end. So I have a good friend of mine that's battling cancer right now. I love her very much. And, you know, we've been asking for healing, and we've been praying for healing for over I mean, I've been praying with her for seven years, I think, together, that we've been praying for her.
Matt Brown:And, you know, there's been periods of remission, and then there's been periods where the cancer comes back in a fierce way.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:And here here here's my advice to her. Pray till you die. Right? Pray till you die, because I mean, until that point, God can can do anything. I mean, the truth is He can bring you back from the dead, but I think that we definitively have our answer, right, when when we die.
Matt Brown:But you just keep praying and say, God, I wanna live. I I wanna have children. I wanna get married. I want to be healed of this. I want this relationship reconciled.
Matt Brown:Lord, I need I need this this financial need taken care of. And we just repeatedly come to Him until we we hear from God, you know, no, stop asking for that. Or we you know, in in community group, and this is why community group, people who are praying with you is so important because you need other people around you that say, hey, I feel like we've gotten an answer here, and the answer is no. But right? I mean, what's the answer in the story?
Matt Brown:No. Go away. I mean, it's pretty clear. No. Go away.
Matt Brown:What does Jesus say? Don't go away. Keep knocking. And so, you know, it's so important, Jesus, that you continue to pray because like I shared in the sermon, persistence in prayer teaches you two things. Number one, it teaches you whether you really want it or not.
Matt Brown:And I think a lot of people, fundamentally, most of us give up on prayer way too soon. That I would say that's the normative pattern. So we we pray once, we pray twice, we pray for a week, and we quit. And then we walk away embittered because we haven't fully understood the teaching of Jesus. Keep praying.
Matt Brown:Don't give up. And so here's why. So number one, it teaches us whether or not we really want the bread in the story. Do you do you really need the bread? Or is this just, you know, I kinda need some bread to feed my friend?
Matt Brown:And so the second thing is is it will change your perspective of what you need. And so I shared this story of when, you know, Tammy and I were talking about divorce. I mean, there were huge things at stake here. Had two I was a pastor of a church. You know, we we just didn't like each other at all.
Matt Brown:And and it was really, really tough. So I started off by praying, God fix Tammy, because she's the problem. Right? Fix my wife. She's the problem.
Matt Brown:If if you can fix her, then our marriage will be great. And then, you know, as I continued to pray for my marriage, because I really wanted my marriage to be healed, I shifted from fix her to fix us. You know, fix our marriage. You know, which is kind of an admission, right, that it's not just all her. Yeah.
Matt Brown:There's some things that I need to change. And then ultimately, God moved me from that point to God fix me. I really began to see that, okay, I have I have the dominant role in the problem in our marriage. God changed me. And so that's why I think we need to continually pray, because through the process of persistence prayer, we change.
Matt Brown:And God will get us to the place where we can ask for what he wants to answer. And what I believe he wants to answer is he wants to answer the question that will meet our deepest need. And oftentimes, the initial prayer is nowhere close to what we need. Right. And so God has to change our heart ultimately, you know, through the process of persistent prayer.
Matt Brown:You're going to be changed as you continually knock on that door.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:You know? So again, so, you know, I I would bring community in. What are they saying? You know, have you heard a no? So I think your question was, you know, is it moral?
Matt Brown:Is it biblical? Is this something that's in line with God's scripture? If it is, man, pray until you die. Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Hey, man. I can't help but think too just like what your relationship with God personally would would grow like just literally standing there, you know, like year after year after year, even if the answer does end up ultimately being a no, like your friend that you're saying.
Matt Brown:And I think so much, you know, in our culture, you know, we've confused God with Santa Claus or a genie in the bottle. Right? We ask once and, you know, we get what we want. And part of the your posturing in prayer. Right?
Matt Brown:Jesus said pray this way. Our father who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name. He's the dad. You're not. He's in heaven.
Matt Brown:You're not. Make sure that you remember, you know, how much higher he is than you. And so much of our prayer is demanding, condescending to God. Know, You I hear people all the time, I'm so angry at God. Well, as soon as I hear that, they clearly have forgotten where they are, where God is, who they are, and who God is.
Matt Brown:And I'm not saying there haven't been times in my life where I haven't been frustrated with God, but I can guarantee you, in those moments where I was angry with God, I had forgotten who God is and who I am. I I had forgotten the role. And I think a lot of times in prayer, we pray like we're equal. In some cases, we pray like God's God needs to be submissive. And I think those are not, you know, those are not godly prayers.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:So we need to be humble and submissive even in prayer. Because God's God, and he can say no. Mhmm. And he doesn't owe us an explanation. He doesn't.
Matt Brown:He can say no.
Stephanie Schaefer:This next question is actually kind of on the subject of hearing from God then. So Alan asked, I keep hearing pastor Matt say that we should be terrified to hear God speak, but I've grown up hearing that God longs to speak with us and that we we should seek to hear his voice. There's two stories that come to my mind are of Elijah at the mouth of the cave when God came in a whisper and Samuel when he answered God's voice saying, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. Can you shed a little light on why you've been saying we should be afraid to hear from God?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So thank you, Alan. And what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to push back against a Christian culture that assumes God is this friendly, calm puppy in heaven. And I think that's kind of the image that we have of God. And so there are two there are two problems with his understanding that he's been taught to want to hear God's voice.
Matt Brown:Number one, the assumption is this is always soft and it's always gentle. I think his examples about Samuel and about Elijah you know, okay, let's take those examples. So, you know, the the example of Elijah. So yeah, there was a whisper. But what preceded that?
Matt Brown:K. Fire on the mountain Things
Justin Pardee:of a storm.
Matt Brown:Earthquakes, you know, where where literally the mountain almost comes to its knees, and wind that blew rocks, you know, off the face of the mountain. It was still a terrifying experience.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And so God scared him to death and then spoke in a whisper in a still small voice. And so what I would say there is, yeah, that was a calming voice, but God scared the holy crap out of him before the conversation started. Then with Samuel, I think that's a great example. And and Samuel is I mean, Samuel's an incredible person. Right?
Matt Brown:So Luke two fifty two, Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and favor with men. A lot of people don't know this, but that verse occurs in the Old Testament, and it's talking about Samuel. Samuel grew in favor with God, you know, in in in wisdom and in stature and in favor with others. It's I mean, Samuel is an example of a Christ like figure in the Old Testament. And so what I would say is, are we Samuel?
Matt Brown:No. I don't think that's a normative behavior. I here's what I'm saying, Alan. We need to quit thinking that God's our buddy, and we need to remember that God is God. And when he speaks, things happen.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, Alan, you're right. There are gonna be moments that if we need to hear a tender voice, if we need to hear a calm voice, if we need to be still, right, Psalms forty six ten, be still and know that I'm God, then yeah, God's gonna speak to us in that way. But there's two things. Number one, you know, I don't think people pray because they expect to hear God's voice, and they get discouraged very quickly. And so, Alan, what I would say is there are people in the Bible who wait their whole life Zechariah at the temple.
Matt Brown:They wait their whole life being faithful, waiting to hear the voice of God, and they hear it once. And so we're like, well, that's the normative pattern of behavior. And what that makes people feel like who haven't heard an audible voice is, oh, I'm missing out, or I don't have a relationship with God, or God's not real. And let me tell you, that's not the truth. God is real whether you hear from Him or not.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And so the purpose of prayer, Alan, is not for you to hear from God, it's for God to hear from you. And so that's why we need to repeatedly go before God, knocking at the door, asking for what we want. I mean, right, so look at it in the context of Luke 11. The assumption is you gotta knock a long time to hear your answer, so keep knocking. Yeah.
Matt Brown:And so, yeah, you know, we need to have a healthy respect for God, and we need to be aware that when God speaks, when God moves, it's usually, Alan, very, very scary in the Bible. That's the normative behavior. The examples that you used, yeah, okay. There are some times where where God speaks in a gentle small voice, but that is not the normal encounter that people have with God. It's usually a terrifying experience, even if it's just an angel.
Matt Brown:Right? So the the word is not coming directly from God. It's coming via, you know, the US post office from heaven. Yes. Okay?
Matt Brown:The angels. That's what they are. They're post You office know, the Pony Express, you know, UPS, whatever. Even then, it's scary. And that's not even a direct word from the Lord.
Matt Brown:It's coming via a messenger. And even that is like, oh my gosh. Mhmm. And so we just need to have, you know, a healthy, healthy, healthy respect from God. One of my favorite worship bands, you know, they sing this song, God, I wanna see your glory glory, I'm not afraid.
Matt Brown:And I hate that. Mhmm. Because we should be afraid to see his glory. We we should be terrified.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, one of the things that the cross teaches us as we approach Easter is the cross shields us from the wrath of God. Yeah. And right, thank you Jesus for covering me from that horrific wrath that I deserve.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And you know? And so we we just so Alan, have a healthy respect of God. And yeah, you know, I I think that there are times and moments when God can be very, very gentle and very, very loving. And and certainly the the scriptures are full of that. I don't think that's the problem in the church today.
Matt Brown:I think the problem is we always assume that God's this puppy dog in heaven, this soft and always gentle lamb, and we need to realize that he's both the lion and the lamb. And so what I'm trying to do is to push people, a, to not think that you have to hear God's voice, and if you do, to be prepared for it to be very, very frightening.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. Yeah, man. I can't help but think too that Samuel was just a little boy, and I would imagine that a voice, no matter how gently it was speaking in the middle of the night out loud audibly to
Matt Brown:you It's little scary.
Justin Pardee:Would actually probably be kinda scary too.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Well, there's this whole chunk in the middle of Luke 11 where there's this demonic exchange that's going on. So first of all, Jesus cast out this demon and people accuse him of doing it by the power of the devil. And, so verses 15 through 19 say, but some of them said, he cast out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons. And I'm assuming that is the devil.
Justin Pardee:Right?
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So while others to test him kept seeking from him a sign from heaven, but Jesus, knowing their thoughts said to them, every kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste and a divided household falls. And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub, and if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? So really quickly there, Jesus is being accused of partnering with the devil.
Justin Pardee:He's responding there, but then he also says, you guys are doing this too. What what is happening here?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So there's a lot going on in that text. And and, you know, I think at your first couple reads through Luke 11, you're probably gonna miss just the nuances of what are happening here. So one of the problems that Jesus' enemies have with him is they can't they can't deny the miracles that he's doing. So what do you do?
Matt Brown:They what they do is they attribute the miracles that he's doing to the power of Satan. So, yes, he has power, but he's doing this by the power of Satan. And it's amazing to me the lengths that we will go to as human beings to deny who Jesus is. And I see this all the time, why people won't be Christians, why they won't place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. They will come up with the most ridiculous reasons as to why.
Matt Brown:Can be some Why I got hurt, or I met this Christian that was whatever. And they will go to enormous lengths to free themselves from the responsibility of repenting of their sins and giving their life to Jesus Christ. And that's what's happening here. And this is how far our hardened hearts will go to deny Jesus sovereign authority in our lives. Well, the only way that Jesus is kicking out demons is because he is a demon.
Matt Brown:I mean, that's what they're saying is that You are demonic, Jesus. And Jesus is saying, that's ridiculous. You know, how on earth is Satan's kingdom going to be powerful at all if they go around fighting each other? And he's saying that no kingdom can survive if they're fighting each other. And then he flips it on them and he says, well, then if I kick out demons, but, you know, only by the power of the devil, then how are you guys doing this?
Matt Brown:And what's amazing here is it's not just Christians who can kick out demons. Apparently, Jews had the authority and the power to kick out demons as well. Right. And so He really turns that on them to examine their own disciples and their own reasons for trying to heal people. And so it's really, really a tragic passage that reveals the hardness of human hearts that we will go to any lengths to not have to submit to Jesus.
Matt Brown:And it's just tragic because those people are probably in hell today. Mhmm. Because, you know, they they they had to say, you're Satan, in order to figure out a way not to submit to his power and authority, and that's terrifying today. You know, we need to look at our lives. You know?
Matt Brown:What lengths am I going to to not allow Jesus to be the ruler and the king that he is in my life? Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So this encounter goes on. After all this, Jesus kinda starts talking about demons. And he says this is verses 24 through 26 in Luke chapter 11. When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, I will return to my house from which I came.
Justin Pardee:And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first. So Misty wrote in, and she basically says, yikes. How do we go about protecting ourselves from this?
Justin Pardee:And then she's obviously listened to episode four where we kind of first start talking about demons, and she asked, since Christians can be subject to demonic influence, does this apply to those of us who are believers and have been saved?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely not. So, know, a born again Christian cannot be possessed by an evil spirit. And so let let's talk about this. And this you gotta put on your thinking caps here and and be ready for your mind to be blown because there's a lot gonna go on here.
Justin Pardee:So, yeah, thank you.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Watch out, Harry. I hope that doesn't sound that's not the sound when your brain blows. But so let's talk about demons. And so one of the things that we need to understand about all God's creation is all God's creation, in terms of living beings, are embodied beings.
Matt Brown:So one of the things you need to notice is that angels never seek to possess because they they are embodied spirits. Demonic spirits seem to be disembodied spirits. And so one of the things that, you know, and and I can't prove this, but this is one of the things that I think is is that part of the the fall, so when Satan rebelled against God, and he and all of his followers were cast out of heaven, I think that there was a spiritual death that occurred there.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:So the Bible talks about the second death in the book of Revelation, that you don't wanna experience a second death. So when we look at death as human beings, when we die right? Why do we die? We die because of sin. So the consequence of sin is death, the Bible says.
Matt Brown:So every single one of us, because we're sinners, will experience just physical death. So what happens at death? Our spirit is separate from our body. Mhmm. From our body, not our body.
Matt Brown:From our body. And so what I think happened when Satan and his demons rebelled against God and they were cast out, they experienced a spiritual death. They experienced a disembodiment. And so what happens is now they are wandering spirits, and every spirit is meant to be embodied. And so because they don't have bodies, they want to embody humans, they want to embody pigs, you know, like we talked about a couple weeks ago, places.
Matt Brown:They're looking for some place to find rest. And so Jesus says that they go out into the desert and into the waterless places, right, to the place of suffering, and it's awful, and it's terrible. And so they come back. And so here's what's huge, is this person has been exorcised of their demons, but they have not received the spirit of Christ. They do they they have not received the holy spirit inside them.
Matt Brown:And so that's problematic, because what happens here is this person has received a miracle of God, but they have not repented of their sins and placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And so I think that what Jesus is doing here is he's pointing the finger at his accusers in the previous verse. He says, look, you guys are running around, exercising demons, which is a good thing. The problem is you're not replacing, you know, those demons with the best thing, which is the holy spirit, because you guys are sinners. And so he often refers to him as the blind leading the blind, hypocrites.
Matt Brown:And he has some really, really ugly words for them Yes. Because their hearts are not right. And so what he's saying is you're actually doing more damage because when that person is healed of that demon and they don't place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, the demon's gonna come back with more, and now the demons are gonna come in, and they're going to become permanent residents. And so the word that Jesus used here to describe, you know, to take up residence is the same word that the apostle Paul uses in the New Testament to describe us as Christians being filled with the Holy Spirit. So when we receive when we're full of the Holy Spirit, it's a permanent situation.
Matt Brown:We've become a child of God, and the Holy Spirit is within us. And so what's so scary about this passage is this seems to indicate that these people are now in a permanent situation of possession, and that's terrifying, and it's awful. So we have to make sure that we don't just go around, you know, rebuking evil spirits, but we are are telling people to receive the holy spirit. And how do you do that? By repenting of your sins and placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and inviting God into your life.
Matt Brown:And so that's what we need to make sure is that we we're not just exercising demons, but we're preaching the gospel. People need both. Demons need to be kicked out, and the holy spirit needs to be invited in. And that's huge. So, you know, as a born again Christian, do you need to worry about this state?
Matt Brown:Absolutely not. You have the holy spirit inside you, and and it's not going to share rooms. It's not going to. So I shouldn't say it. He is not going to.
Matt Brown:The holy spirit's a person. We'll get into that in the book of Acts. The holy spirit is not an it. So
Justin Pardee:Got it. Okay. So right after all of this happens, this lady yells out to Jesus, and she raised her voice and says to him, blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts at which you nursed. But he said, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it. So as I was reading it, it kinda almost sounds like Jesus is maybe dishonoring his mom here a little bit, which is like a 10 commandments.
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. This is a little weird. It's kinda like a Donald Trump rally. It's just kinda bizarre.
Matt Brown:Right? There's just there's people in the audience who say weird things. Right?
Justin Pardee:You're just
Matt Brown:like, woah. You know, and Jesus is not responsible for, you know, what everyone says out loud.
Justin Pardee:But Okay.
Matt Brown:Luke thought it was interesting, so he put it in the gospel of Luke.
Justin Pardee:He was
Stephanie Schaefer:like, remember when this happened?
Matt Brown:Yeah. I mean, this is just like a you know, one of those fans is a little off. You're like,
Stephanie Schaefer:oh, okay.
Justin Pardee:You're on
Matt Brown:our team. Well, you know, not sure that we love this. Yes. You know, she just said something weird, know, blessed are the breasts that nursed you in the womb that, you know, brought you forth, and and, okay, thanks, you know. And so, you know, for those who are, you know, who grew up in a Catholic background, which, you know, there's wonderful things about Catholicism, but one of the things they teach you is, you know, really to overly emphasize the purity and nature of Mary.
Matt Brown:And and in our tradition, I think we underemphasize, you know, how awesome she is, but in the Catholic tradition, they overemphasize. And so what Jesus is saying is, look, man, I'm not here to draw attention to who my mom is. We're not here to worship her. Let's talk about the real things. You know, blessed are those who are my followers.
Matt Brown:Those are the people that are really blessed, those who are born again. So I don't think it's a it's a notch against Mary. I think there's a nut job in the audience, and Jesus is trying to like, okay, let's not get carried away. That was a little weird comment. You know, what we're here to do is build a family.
Matt Brown:And the family that I'm building and the people that I want to celebrate is not the one who gave who gave me birth, but those who experienced a second birth, those who are born again, those who are born by the spirit. And so I think that's what Jesus is saying there.
Justin Pardee:Got it. That makes sense.
Stephanie Schaefer:So moving toward kind of the end of Luke 11, in verses forty nine and fifty one, it says, God said, I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. So Matt has a question. This seems to suggest that Abel, who I'm assuming is son of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel were brothers. He says, this seems to suggest that Abel was a prophet. Is that true?
Stephanie Schaefer:If so, do we know any of his prophecies? Prophecies?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So not from our Christian traditions. And so and what I mean by that is, as Christians, you know, we have the 66 books that we deem as authoritative. You know, in Judaism, there are other books that seem to indicate, you know, other things about other people. And so there's a lot of sayings about, you know, different individuals in Jewish traditions and in Jewish books that we don't see as inspired.
Matt Brown:And so in those books, you know, they will attribute to Abel, you know, some kind of prophetic like state. I think Abel's an awesome person. I'm just not aware of any scriptures in the Bible that would attribute him as a prophet. So what I'll do this week is I'll do some research on that and see what I can find. Because there's, like I said, there's all kinds of writings that the Jews will attribute to as something special and unique and perhaps scripture that he might be in there.
Matt Brown:But
Justin Pardee:Well, can I can I ask this question? I mean, Abel is, in many ways, kind of an example of obedience to God. Yeah. Like, right? Because he he he, in contrast with his brother, is worshiping God the way that God has asked
Matt Brown:to be.
Justin Pardee:And I'm like, that to me feels like, at least at the very least, an example. I don't know if that's
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. Absolutely, he's an example. I mean, and he provoked his brother to jealousy because his brother was jealous of the unique relationship that he had with God. And so I think that's absolutely, you know, true in that sense that, you know, the guy was an awesome follower and believer in God.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Alright. Well, let's go to this. There's this chunk where Jesus is talking in verses 33 through 34, and I'll just I'll just read these. No one after lighting a lamp, Jesus says, puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand so that those who may who enter may see the light.
Justin Pardee:Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light. But when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. This almost sounds like a little bit mystical or something. What is Jesus talking about with light and dark and?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, here here's the first thing I would say. You know, we live in a world and a culture with new age, you know, kind of self actualization, self realization. And a lot of those teachings, you know, you need to discover the light kind of that's within you. We need to, you know, as Christians, yeah, that that is not a biblical concept.
Matt Brown:Is no light within you. That the light that we need according to Jesus is an external light. He is the light. And so that's what he talks about. No one lights a light in their home and then hides it.
Matt Brown:It's the first thing that you see as you come into the house so that there's not darkness and you don't stumble and fall. The light for us as Christians is something that we display. It's something that we share. It's something that others are to see. So this light is an external thing.
Matt Brown:And so, this text is is powerful because he says, be careful that the light that you have is not in fact darkness. And so oftentimes, right, when people talk about, well, I just live by what I think is true or what I think is right. What are they living by? They're living by an internal light, an internal compass. And Jesus is saying, you gotta be careful because that thing that you think is internal that's guiding you, what if it's darkness?
Matt Brown:Then then you're way way off. And so, you know, the eye is a precious thing. It needs to be able to see accurately. It needs to be able to see what what is really light and what is really darkness. And the truth is our eyes don't work properly.
Matt Brown:That's why Jesus Christ came in terms of seeing things that are spiritual. Jesus Christ came to heal the blind, not just the physical blind, but the spiritually blind. And he refers to the Pharisees as blind guides. There's nothing wrong with their physical eyes. Right.
Matt Brown:But there's something incredibly wrong with their spiritual eyes. And so not only this is what's so tragic, is not only are they not gonna get into heaven, but they're gonna keep other people from getting into heaven because they're blind guides, and they're leading people in the wrong directions. And so we gotta be careful that our internal compass is not the light that we look to, but that Christ constantly remains a light. That we're looking to Him, and He shows us what's dark. He shows us what's light, and we wanna see His light permeate everything inside our house, everything inside our body.
Matt Brown:We want God to reveal everything in us that's darkness that needs to be rid of. So I love that passage, but it's so important that we understand that we are not the light. Christ is.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm. Yeah. This kinda reminds me, Stephanie, you wrote an awesome blog post on the cultivate website at cultivate.sc talking about, you know, learning to Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Like, not listen to your heart. Yeah. Because I think you've said that before that blew my mind one time like, you know, follow your heart is the worst advice someone could give you. And that it took me a long time to really understand what that meant.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Have destroyed my life by following my heart. Right? Because your heart your heart is the most selfish organ in your life. Right?
Matt Brown:It wants what it wants. And and and the truth is, you know, it doesn't care what's right and wrong. It it doesn't. I mean, right, the heart makes you jealous. The heart makes you lustful.
Matt Brown:The heart The heart makes you I mean, I've seen people, right, follow their heart and destroy their kids. Follow their heart, destroy their marriage. Follow their heart and throw their life away. I mean, follow your heart, end up in jail. I mean, it's the worst advice you could possibly give somebody.
Matt Brown:What you wanna follow is Jesus. And he tells us, you know, don't listen to your heart, man, because your the Bible says, Jeremiah says that the heart is utterly deceitful and wicked. No one knows how wicked it is. I mean, think about this, passions of the heart. Those are the worst crimes.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Those are the worst things that people do. And we we gotta be really, really careful. And so I I haven't read your blog post, but I will. And that's great because I think a lot of us in our culture says follow your heart, and that's it sounds so right and it's so wrong.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Follow Jesus.
Justin Pardee:Good advice.
Stephanie Schaefer:So the end of Luke 11, Jesus is kind of starting to call out the Pharisees and, you know, you're talking about them as blind guides. He has this chunk in there that says, what sorrow awaits you Pharisees, for you're careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. What's Jesus talking about here with tithing?
Justin Pardee:Do I need to start an herb garden Yeah. And bring my spices to church
Matt Brown:the store
Stephanie Schaefer:and kinda shake them in the the buckets?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Please do not start an herb garden. Oh. Aw. I think your wife would actually really
Justin Pardee:like that. Yeah. Probably would.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Okay, maybe then start one. Okay. Listen to your heart. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So it's always amazing to me is people say that Jesus never talks about tithing, and he does. And so I'm a tither. If you don't know what tithing is, tithing is the the the spiritual practice of giving 10% of your income to God. I've been doing it my whole life.
Matt Brown:So let me summarize why, you know, I tithe. I summarize this way because Abraham started it. Right? He's the father of our faith. Moses commanded it.
Matt Brown:He puts it in the law. Malachi says God blesses it. In the gospel of Luke right here, Jesus affirms it. The apostle Paul in his rise writings, he expects it. And then the last point is, and this is like a whole sermon, the church needs it.
Matt Brown:If we didn't have tithers, there wouldn't be a Sandals Church. So everybody who wants to be judgmental about tithers, without tithers, there is no church anywhere in the world.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:And so I think tithing is a beautiful, blessed practice that I would encourage everyone to at least wrestle through and pray with. And I think I think, like I said, you know, it it has such incredible biblical support. And so, you know, tithing is is just incredible practice. It's a great honor. It's a great way to worship God.
Matt Brown:It's something that Tammy and I have done since the very beginning of our relationship when we had no money. And I think it's a it's a wonderful blessing and and something that I appreciate doing. What Jesus is saying here is that we have to be careful in religious practice. Sometimes we can get so caught up in getting everything religiously right that we get everything religiously wrong. And so we focus on the little things.
Matt Brown:And so, okay, let's say you're a tither. Let's say you attend church every week. Let's say you're you're serving God regular regularly by working and volunteering at the church, but you're terrible to your wife, or you're you're an awful person at work, or you're grumpy, or, you know, you don't care for those who are poor and those who are in need. It it doesn't matter how much we get right if our heart's still wrong. And so here's these people that are being incredibly careful to do everything that God's law says, and yet their hearts are are wicked, and their hearts are ugly and awful.
Matt Brown:And so I can be a tither and still not be a generous person. And I I meet people like this. Right? They're tithers, they're religious tithers, and they're not generous. Generosity is the spirit of God.
Matt Brown:The Bible says that God loves a hilarious giver, someone who loves to give. And so that's why I like to be generous, and I like to give. You know, my generosity doesn't end at 10%. You know, my wife and I, we give 10% to the church. We also support local missionaries.
Matt Brown:I love to support what other people are doing, kids that go on missionary trips. I love to help the homeless. I love to be a generous person. Right. I would rather give my money to something that God blesses than spend all my money on myself.
Matt Brown:And I just think that that's so important. And so, you know, here's these people that are tithing, and Jesus says, yeah, that's a good thing. Keep doing that. But don't stop doing that. But you've neglected the greater things, you know, love, mercy, kindness.
Matt Brown:You know, there's there's all these adjectives here that that describe, you know, the right kind of heart. And so we have to be careful as Christians that we don't just go through the motions. You know, God is not impressed with the things we do if it's divorced from where our heart is. And so we don't want to, you know, tithe, go to church, serve, you know, study the Bible to earn God's favor. You've already received God's favor through your faith in Jesus Christ.
Matt Brown:We do these things because we have the love of Christ in us and through us. And so the Pharisees didn't have it. You know, the Pharisees didn't have the love of Christ in their hearts. They didn't have the love of God in their hearts, even though they were doing trying to do everything that God asked. Isn't that amazing?
Matt Brown:We can try to do everything that God is asking us to do, but we can still be a terrible follower of God. So, yeah, you should tithe, and if you don't, you know, you I I just think you're missing out on blessings. But just because you're a tither doesn't mean that you're getting everything right.
Justin Pardee:Got it. You've actually talked more about this, on our website. If you just search tithing, you'll hear pastor Matt talk about that in in more than two minutes.
Matt Brown:Yeah. A lot of Christians get worked up about it and, you know, they they try to find all these ways. And I hear Christians talk about, oh, grace giving, and that's great. But I've never met a person who gives under grace that gives more than 10%. They always seem to figure out a way to give less.
Matt Brown:And I think that's tragic and sad, and it shows that you're still selfish. Right? I mean, Christ gave everything to me. I'm not gonna give 10% to Him. I mean, come on.
Matt Brown:To me, it's just absolutely silly. And know, I don't like to talk about that all the time at church, because it's important that we not talk about money a lot at church, because that turns people off. But those of you who are listening to the debrief, you've taken this seriously, you wanna grow deeper, you're not gonna grow deeper with God until you start worshiping God with your money. You're not. Because the Bible says wherever your treasure is, there your heart is.
Matt Brown:And so if you're not giving your treasure to the Lord, the Lord is not your treasure. That's just the reality. And so, you know, it's something that you need to deal with. If you're a single person, you need to look at your finances. If you're married, you need to figure it out together as a couple because our money shows us where our priority is, where our heart is.
Matt Brown:And Jesus said, you can't love both God and money. Yeah. You're gonna love one and hate the other, and you've got to choose. And so to me, it's an enormous blessing to be able to give what I'm able to give to the church, and to support God's kingdom. Because like I said, Jesus gave everything to me.
Matt Brown:It is my pleasure and joy to give to him. And I think tithing is a great way to start that. And again, there's no Sandals Church. If our tithers disappear tomorrow, the church closes the next week. That's the reality.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. And you know what? I love that you just talked about people who are listening to the debrief, and we even shared, you know, in services this last weekend that the only reason really we're able to make this podcast happen every week, it's totally not free
Matt Brown:Yeah. You know, us generosity. Is
Justin Pardee:Yeah. And so far, the generosity has been really awesome this year. And that's Yeah. Allowed us to do
Matt Brown:you that do tie, thank you very much. You know, I can't be here without you. There's there's no way. I'm not here without you. And and I'm grateful to you, and and I just, you know, I just love the people of our church that are so generous because I think that's the heart of God.
Matt Brown:I mean, we worship a generous God, right? The most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world, that he gave. You know, generosity is an act of God. You know, hoarding things, keeping things to yourself, that's the kingdom of Satan, man. That that's what Satan is all about himself, and we wanna be all about God and blessing others.
Matt Brown:And that's the beautiful thing of the tithe is, right, it's 10% based upon whatever you make. And so we're all contributing the same amount. Right. And that's exciting to me. Yeah.
Matt Brown:So thank you all of those of you who are generous and give your tithes and your offerings to Sandals Church. That's how we built this building. Right. That's how we have this podcast. That's how we send out our missionaries, you know, all over the world.
Matt Brown:That's how we fund everything.
Justin Pardee:Totally.
Matt Brown:So, you know, there's no magic. We don't have money manna that drops from heaven every week, but it's people that write checks and, you know, put us on their, what do you call it, on their regular giving thing.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Their auto pay.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Auto pay and stuff like that. I mean, that's that's how Sandals Church exists.
Justin Pardee:So here's the deal. I'm gonna go ahead and just say this. If you are listening to the debrief part of Sandals Church and you are not giving yet, you can learn more about how to do that if you want to at sandalschurch.com/giving. And one of the cool things that we've done on there is there's literally kind of a chart we've broken down what happens with every single penny of every single dollar that is given here at Sandals Church. So you can see where that is going and how that is being used here in the church.
Justin Pardee:And there at sandalschurch.com/giving, if like you're hearing pastor Matt talk and you wanna figure out how to be generous, we can get you connected to awesome people within the church, Really cool volunteers that are on the team here that would sit down with you if you're in financial, trouble. You're trying to figure out how to set up a budget, all that kind of stuff. You can do all of that online through the website and, get some help straightening out your financial situation so you can become generous.
Matt Brown:So Yes.
Justin Pardee:Cool. Well, this is awesome. Thank you so much to everybody who's sending in questions. This was a great round from chapter 11. Next week, we will be on Luke chapter 12.
Justin Pardee:But if you've got questions that have come from the past, feel free to send those in as well. But we would love to hear some more from Luke chapter 12. It's gonna be a good weekend next week.
Matt Brown:Yeah. We're gonna be talking about anxiety, and fear. And so Jesus talks a lot about that in Luke 12. So, you know, if anybody you know anybody struggling with anxiety, fear, depression, that's gonna be a great week for them to tune in and to listen because Jesus has a lot to say about how to overcome really an emotion that plagues us as Americans. Absolutely.
Matt Brown:So Awesome.
Justin Pardee:It will be a good good week. And seriously, thank you so much to everybody who is sharing the podcast with your friends, who is leaving have been leaving reviews and ratings in iTunes. If you can do that for us, it's super helpful. You can literally do it in less than ninety seconds. If you're listening to the podcast in the iTunes app on your phone, just literally go to that podcast page by searching for the debrief.
Justin Pardee:And if you scroll right down, you'll see a button that says write a review. You can do it in under a minute, and it's super helpful for getting more people to see and learn about the debrief. Well, alright. Let's close with pastor Matt. We're gonna get your thoughts on an inspirational quote.
Matt Brown:Oh my god.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yes. I've been scouring Pinterest. This has been really fun. Okay. Here's one.
Stephanie Schaefer:If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it's yours forever. If it doesn't, it was never meant to be.
Matt Brown:I think I might hate that quote.
Stephanie Schaefer:Oh, okay. Yeah. Just tell us how you really feel.
Matt Brown:No. No. No.
Justin Pardee:No. Yeah.
Matt Brown:I I don't know what that means.
Justin Pardee:Well, it sound it sounds like that quote was never yours to begin with. Yeah. Excellent. Alright. Well, let me I
Matt Brown:would say I would say if you love something, pursue it with all your heart.
Justin Pardee:Well, okay. Yes. Awesome.
Matt Brown:You know? Go after it, man. Jeez. Let it go.
Stephanie Schaefer:I feel like the ladies Let it go. Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Dude, all of a sudden all of a sudden, my daughter is now gonna start listening to this podcast. I'll tell her pastor Matt was singing Elsa.
Justin Pardee:Excellent. We love you guys. Have a awesome week, and we will see you right back here next week for the debrief.