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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French and today I'm with my friend and colleague, Mr. Cody Buriff. Cody, hello. Good to see you, man. I say this sometimes, but it's podcast. You can't see Cody, like Cody's beard people, there's more to him than his beard and his beard is like, I think it makes James Harden like a little uncomfortable and embarrassed. So that's the.
Cody Buriff
Yay, I'm here.
Jesse French
just strong. Well today, Cody, I wanted to kind of tee you up because like the actual day that we're recording, we are recording this conversation is a big one in the birth household. And so today, 12 years ago, a big old thing was happening in your family.
Cody Buriff
strong.
Yeah, so 12 years ago today, my wife was in labor. man. And you know, 12 years ago and about three hours was the first time I ever held my baby girl. So we've got, we've got twin boys. were older. That whole story, giving birth in the operating room and all that kind of like, that was a whole different reality. But like my daughter, it was a couple of years younger. Our daughter, you know, was a normal delivery in a normal like delivery room and
So that was our first experience of that.
Jesse French
This is, this is, I don't know, maybe less stressful.
Cody Buriff
far less stressful. Doctors running around and Jesse there was something wild. It's even hard to put words around honestly, like, you know, having the boys and they were amazing and awesome and still are but then there's something that happens when you pick up this baby girl. I mean, she's handed to you for the first time and you look at her like there's a part of you inside that just melts.
And there's a shift that happens in there that like, I can't explain. Like you instantly become a different person to some degree. You're now a girl dad.
Jesse French
Yeah. And Cody, you remember that instant, like you described that as it does feel like almost the, like the switch gets flipped in that instance of holding your daughter of, this is a before and after like a dividing line.
Cody Buriff
A little bit, a little bit, because I mean, it probably wasn't that actually that drastic. But like there is something inside that's like softer. And it's not that that doesn't happen with boys. Like, of course, there's, know, when you become a dad or whatever father, like things change. But there's even like actual chemical releases that happen and all that stuff. Right. But like for me, there was something distinctly different about holding my baby girl.
And even like, you know, it's football season now. It's like, we would sit on the couch on Sunday afternoons and she would be my little football buddy, like take a nap on me while we're watching football together, you know, and just a little like person.
Jesse French
Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, man, that tracks for me. mean, as I think about, so our first two were girls and so our first born when Lainey was born. I mean, and I think what you're getting at, right, is like, even with our sons, the experience of watching your child be born is, you know, so such a big deal, right? But I think maybe.
Cody Buriff
You know? Something shifted.
Jesse French
As I'm hearing you talk about that and I think about my daughter's being born, like it does feel like when they are born, is this, however fuzzy, you know, it might be in our brains. There is the sense of like, okay, yes, something new now is required of being a dad, right? That would be true, you know, if we had sons for sure. But it does feel like even in addition to that, on top of that, there is this layer of like,
man, this is new to me, right? Like this relationship is less familiar than when our sons are born. Right? Like, and again, I'm not trying to strip all of the, like the, the intrigue and the awe and the wonder of when our sons are born for sure. Don't hear me say that, but it does feel like there is this layer of newness with our daughters that has felt and experienced even when, you know, right after they're born.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I wonder if there's something to it, Jesse, where it's like, okay, when as a dad, when a boy is born, there's like a connection with him. That's like, all right, we are the like testosterone holders. Like, know, whatever, like we can, you know, we can like get excited or terrified, of course, but like excited. I've been like kind of vision envision what his life might be like, you know, through our own experience as boys.
And we can get excited about possibilities and, you know, potential stories and adventures and things like that. But with girls, like, dude, I was never a little girl. yeah, totally. And so like, is this level of wonder, I think, and awe and like unfamiliarity that is, I think that's part of what we're kind of tapping into in that moment.
Jesse French
I have no bank of experience.
Yeah, I love those words. wonder and unfamiliarity. Like those feel like those are just ripe with mystery, right? Of that I think at its best, right? That for sure we feel when they're born of this sense of humility of like, dang, this is amazing. And this is way new. And how do I move forward? Like this very, very keen sense of being humbled by what we've been given.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah. I'm even like thinking back like, okay, you know, with boys, I think there was like an element where I was more keenly aware of how to shape them. I think with my daughter, it was like, okay, I need to protect her. Like it was a higher level of like protection versus shaping, you know, obviously as dads, we shape our daughters in massively significant ways and like,
I think, at least for me, would say the protective nature felt stronger than the shaping in that as well.
Jesse French
You know, which I think that makes sense. And I would wonder if that move. So our daughters right now. So you just said it right. Like your daughter's turning 12 today. Mine are 13 and 11. So this is the phase that we're in. yeah. Cody, I think it's really interesting that you talk about like that move into the production space because I wonder if some ways, cause I feel some of that now, like as my daughters are entering the teen years, right? Like we are shifting into new, new territory.
Cody Buriff
There go, man.
Jesse French
Yeah. And I think that protective piece, I wonder.
It's not all bad. Like that makes sense. And I do wonder if it is easier for, I'm speaking for me, to like operate more in that protective mode, because that's more known and familiar to me, rather than the embrace of like that posture of awe and wonder as they're like becoming women as their voice and their passion and their strength is coming out.
That feels real new and so I think it can be easier to default into protective mode, right? Of like, I'm just gonna stereotype of the dad cleaning his gun type of mentality is like, that might be more familiar than what does it actually look like to have a posture of curiosity, of engagement around this continual unfolding of our daughter who is becoming a woman.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Which is wild. mean, you and I, I mean, it's like, we've never walked this road before. Like we've never had to father daughters into womanhood, you know, Jesse, I'm curious, you know, as you think about that and obviously, you know, RP, we have father daughter experiences where we talk about these things, but I guess for you more personally, what do you think that might look like?
as you anticipate, you're thinking intentionally, like fathering your daughter through, you know, these years, puberty and the whole thing, boyfriends, like all of that, you know, what, what's your feeling inside around it? And then like, what do you anticipate?
Jesse French
Yeah, man. I can remember, I think it was eight years ago, seven or eight years ago, I was in a van with our friend and colleague, Chris Bruno. And at this point, his daughters, you know, were much younger. think his, his oldest was maybe in the teen years and we're, we were on this long road trip and I just asked him like, you know, my girls were tiny. And I think I asked him like, what's in the fathering daughter space? Like, what are you faced with right now? And I can remember him saying,
With my son, who is older than his daughters, he said, I think he requires more of my heat as a father. And with my daughters, they require more of my warmth.
Cody Buriff
Hmm
Jesse French
And just that sentence, like that's stuck with me of, I think has even resonated more and more as my kids have gotten older and are, you know, entering more of their teen years. Like that has felt framing of, okay, there is a different type of interaction. Like my warmth with my daughters is needed, which I think is some of, feels like some of the, what I was saying earlier, some of the difference of. I could just go into protect mode and kind of the heat of that. Right. But it's like, no, actually, actually something is.
Something else is different. I think the other thing that I would say, which is purely aspirational. So this is like, I hope this is true now and in the coming few years, is that there would be a, what's the way to say it? That I would have like a curiosity over who my daughter is becoming versus a kind of tight mold of like, well, I know who she is and she needs to be.
this and this sort of rigid stamp of like, well, yeah, your life needs to look like this. Yeah. But that there would be that curiosity around that unfolding around that becoming like there's light handedness, not an abdication, not a removal, but there's a light handedness versus like, no, I need to guide the process into this result.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. Yeah. You don't want to cage them. You know, in fact, we even like talk about that. our last summer, Jesse, you and I got to participate. We weren't leading in any capacity. We got to participate in base camp girls, the fierce and lovely base camp girls with our daughters, your younger daughter, Grace, and my daughter, Evely. And they talked about that.
Like not clipping their wings, not caging them, but like giving them wings to fly, you know, and letting them take flight out of the nest and, know, empowering them. Yeah, it's, good. I guess I'm curious, Jesse, as you think about, you know, the last for you, 13 years for me, 12 years, and then even then projecting forward, like what are some of the pitfalls?
Jesse French
Yep. Yep.
Cody Buriff
that you've experienced and what are some of ways that even experiencing those or just other things have, with your daughter has made you a better dad and a better man. How has that changed you?
Jesse French
gosh, dang Cody. ⁓ was a big one. hope that, I mean, I hope that there has been, like you talked about it when your daughter was born, the sense of like a softness needed. And I agree with that. And I think that's kind of what I hear in that is it is not like passivity.
Cody Buriff
No, that was a big question,
Jesse French
you know, kind of floppy noodle that's just like, yeah, I'm just gonna go with the flow and just super laid back and chill mode.
Cody Buriff
That is not the type of softness. It's helpful.
Jesse French
But different than that, right? It is like, no, I am very present and choosing to be here, but in a different way than kind of amped up and like the other extreme of like, you will feel my energy because of how big it is. Like, I hope there has been more of an exploration around what does it look like to offer that type of presence. And I wonder just how much of our daughters, I think that is a tremendous invitation that they, not that that's not needed with our sons, but I think they invite that maybe in some different ways.
So I hope that there has been a greater learning, experimentation, kind of fumbling my way through in some of that. Does that track with you?
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think the word I would use is tender, more than soft. And, know, as I'm, as I'm chewing on it right now, even with you, it's like, think God uses daughters in our lives to make us more tender men, you know, and if, you don't have a daughter, you know, or kids at all, like, of course, like there's still that invitation there and like, it's unique, it's different and it's there, you know, when my daughter was not well.
I wanted to pick her up and hold her and carry her. You know, if she messed something up, I feel like I was quicker to like lift her, not try to get her to smile, you know, and dismiss whatever she was experiencing, but much more like able to like be there with her in it than I was with my boys. And the heat and warmth thing is, you know, that Chris says a thing. And she's like, I would say I just speaking about my daughter.
Like there is something there invitational, not just to my warmth, but also to like who she is, bring something out different.
Jesse French
Say more about that. Yeah. Like obviously unique to your relationship. And I think that's a really interesting point.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Totally, and other guys might experience this with their sons, with their daughters, whatever, you know, other people. you know, for my daughter, there's like a spunkiness to her. That a playfulness. You know, she, I took a picture of this recently. I have a whiteboard in my office where I just write down things that I hear sometimes. And I actually heard Michael Kramdike, one of our coworkers say this, I think he was talking about a book.
And I wrote this down as like my adult brain likes to turn wonder into worry.
Jesse French
That's the phrase that you wrote on your way.
Cody Buriff
I wrote on my whiteboard. My adult brain likes to turn wonder into worry. And like, no joke, the next day she comes down while I'm working, grabs the whiteboard marker and just sees it and is like, okay, I'm going to respond to that of her own volition writes, writes this underneath. says, my kid brain likes to go on adventures. Right? Yeah. I'm like, ⁓ yes. Yeah. That is the reminder I need, you know?
And I feel like, I don't know what it is, but God likes to speak wisdom through my daughter and who she is sometimes that I need to hear.
Jesse French
Okay, I remember when you told me that, and I was like, ⁓ this is brilliant on so many levels. So gold. And because I know you, I even wonder that phrase of my kid brain likes to go on adventures. Thousand percent, like you said, sage advice, that is true. But even one step further, what is the role of adventure in your life, Cody?
Why are those words more than just a true and wise statement, but actually an invitation for you and to you.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I think, you know, we had a podcast several, several episodes back where we talked about, you know, some components of adventure and things like that. So if you want to hear a little bit more of my thoughts on that, go back and listen to that. But I think for me, there's a reality that part of my story is that I learned that I needed to be responsible, like super responsible real early on. And, know, that's, that's just part of how I was formed. And so adventure.
often feels playful and therefore irresponsible and not adult. Like if I'm digging into my own like experience of things like adventure feels like this like awesome fun usually costs money or time or whatever but it's pulling away from the like adult world or the responsible world you know job and all the things you know.
Jesse French
Hmm.
Cody Buriff
which I'm aware that my job lets me do some really cool adventures. But the invitation there is to be less hyper-responsible Cody adult and more like, hey, let your kid brain out a little bit. Even like my kid brain likes to go on adventures is a huge reminder to me. It's like, oh yeah, my kid brain likes to go on adventures.
Jesse French
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Cody Buriff
I like to read the crazy stories and watch the movies and go and do the wild things, you know, in the woods. Anyway, there are hundreds of stories I could probably tell of my daughter. Somehow the Holy Spirit like speaks through her with some crazy quips of wisdom.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is the like, again, to borrow a phrase from Chris Bruno, like he talks about the belief that fathering is mutually redemptive. Like it is not just this one way dads are just like pouring into their kids and, you know, that's how we like to think of it. Right. And yes, our presence and our energy is so needed. But to actually say like
It is actually bi-directional that by the design of God and by like his spirit, like our kids actually invite and teach and grow and mold us. Right. I think that is God's. And I would argue like you just talked about for men that don't have have kids like I would say, and we would say the offering of a man's presence on the behalf of others happens is not that that actually happens to people and to
folks besides their own kids, like fathering happens in this much wider context. And so to think of fathering through that lens, like, no, it is actually God's heart that we in the offering of our fathering, that that would be mutually redemptive, that there'd be something healing and restorative as you hear Evely write, my kid brain loves to go on adventures, that that would be an invitation towards healing in your own life. And I think we can remember that that might be true or risk that that might be true.
That feels like good news, right? Like it isn't just the one way valve that I have to just nail this with my daughters and my sons. Like, no, actually it is, it happens both ways.
Cody Buriff
Totally, totally. Yeah, it's good stuff. I mean, it's you don't want somebody fathering you who only sees it as a one way street from them, right? Like the
Yeah. You know, even that type of discipleship to use like a super Christian word, like that, that is not like, you don't think Paul was getting things from Timothy. Like, yeah, anyway, that's another side road to run down. Jesse, I'm aware for me. So today is my daughter's birthday. We've already celebrated it twice because of, you know, day of the week and that kind of thing.
And like, as she's turning another year on the calendar, you know, Apple and Google and every photo thing, Facebook, all the things want to bring up these memories of my daughter from three years ago and five years ago and 10 years ago and her first birthday. And my brother literally just texted me a picture from her first birthday. And I'm just aware that like there is both this like
celebration and desire to bless her and who she is and who she is becoming and set her up well and celebrate that person. And also like this grief of like, man, she's not this like little cuddle bug anymore. You know, that just wants to give me hugs all the time. Like, you know, I still like if we get out of the car and we're walking into the grocery store or whatever, like if she grabs my hand,
Dude, like I am holding that hand like, cause in my head I'm like, ⁓ man, I hope this isn't the last time. I can, I can feel myself tearing up saying that cause it's like, is a like, I know that that part of her is still always going to be part of her in good ways. And there's, there is more to the picture as she gets older that that part of her isn't the only part of her anymore.
Jesse French
sure for sure.
Cody Buriff
And I don't get to just pick her up and snuggle her whenever I want. She is an independent human that, you know, like, needs to be, you know, independent, not, you who I think she should be, you know, I feel the like grief and celebration strongly.
Jesse French
Yes. Cody, I like thanks for offering that. And I think there's such a good invitation like in that, like it's such a great example, right? Like those, the memories on our phones, right? The picture is like so wonderful in some ways. And I know for me, the propensity to that is to just like click to the next one, roll through that. And I think what your words are saying around the celebration of
man, that time was rich, man, look at who she's becoming. And also some of the sadness of like that specific unique window is not here anymore. I even just wonder what, it would look like to just pause and to give that reflection even like a minute or so, right? To be able to, to not run too quickly past those feelings of, of whatever they are, but to actually feel them. Yeah. Feels like a
away, right? That doesn't bring that back, but it is honoring of the complexity of what is there to feel some of that mystery where both that celebration and sadness is there. Because I wonder as we practice that more, as we're able to engage that mystery of who she's becoming, who she was, that complex space, it's a muscle that's built, right? And it allows us to be able to engage the mystery of a relationship in more attuned ways.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, no, that's, that's good. I think we're so quick to bury the feelings. Yeah. As men, know, we don't, we don't want to feel the bad things, you know? Yeah. So we'll know them out or tune them out or move on or whatever. But, there is some goodness in that. Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, I'm aware of like where we're at in the calendar and as RP, like we have lots of fathering daughter experiences. we mentioned the base camp.
where the fierce and lovely base camp where our daughters met and had a great time when they get older, we're going to have to get them together again. know we live many, many states away from each other, but my daughter loves Greece. And so to get them together, but that's available to men to take their daughters on. We've got other trips available, other experiences available, backpacking, and there's even one that's a table rock experience is not camping. That's right.
And that's brand new this year and Trek, which is going to be freaking epic. ⁓
Jesse French
Amazing. South America
Cody Buriff
If have a daughter that's like 17 to 20, you guys, this trip is going to be amazing. They're going down to like the Amazon basin and doing some really cool stuff. And then they're going to be up in like Machu Picchu and let's just... So anyway, I'm aware of those just opened up. So jump in there. If any of that sounds like something you want to experience, if you want to take steps into helping your daughter be a fierce and lovely woman.
Jesse French
I'm so jealous.
Cody Buriff
not clipping her wings and engaging her as a dad in really intentional ways. Like those are incredible ways to step into that space.
Jesse French
They totally are. Yeah. think it is. I'm so proud of like how our, our team has created spaces for that to happen for like the mystery of mutually redemptive fathering of daughters and sons to happen. so yeah, join us. You and I are already, I'm sure kind of plotting our calendar of like, when can we bring our daughter on a ⁓
Cody Buriff
Totally.
Jesse French
Cody, thanks. Thanks for this conversation. Thanks for being a girl, dad. And yeah, sharing some of the thoughts from the road, man. Appreciate you.
Cody Buriff
Thanks, you. Appreciate you too, Jesse.