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Starting: January 2024
This weekly podcast is unique in higher education. All sides of Issues, challenges, and opportunities from across higher education are presented and discussed in an entertaining style and format.
Dr. Gary Stocker, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, and their guests review, discuss, and debate the issues of the day in higher education.
Gary (00:02)
It's March 16th, 2024. This is Gary Stocker and we're gonna lead off with two more closures this week. We'll talk about those another time, but I'm eager to hear if my partner thinks I am a profound prognosticator or just plain lucky. And with that, I wanna welcome the man from Michigan, Dr. Joseph Pellerito Jr. to yet another podcast episode of College Counterpoints.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:29)
Thanks, Gary. It's great to be here, and welcome to you too.
So Gary, let's talk today about our first topic and let's just jump right into it. You know, academic freedom has been in the news lately and what it means, is it important? Are we supporting it? And for me, I think academic freedom is incredibly important, especially for professors in the US and beyond, because it's indispensable, it fosters innovation.
Gary, it promotes critical thinking. You know, it really safeguards intellectual integrity. Believe it or not, it even preserves democracy. Facilitates global cooperation. And at the end of the day, it allows faculty like myself to advance knowledge in new and innovative ways without worrying about being censored because someone doesn't like what we're saying. So.
I'm all in on supporting academic freedom and I think you should be too, but I have a feeling you might have a different opinion.
Gary (01:43)
Well, you know, for those listening to our podcast, we actually have video running while we're doing this. And I'm looking at a video of Joseph. You won't see it. And he doesn't look that old. So I'm kind of somewhat stunned that he has this ancient perspective that academic freedom should be what it's always been. Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, men and women, things change. And I'll start off with now that I have properly chastised Dr. Pellerito. In some regards, he's right.
The capacity to teach whatever needs to be taught should be unfettered. But using that as a leverage for job security, using that as a leverage to run a business, Joseph, I don't know what you're thinking, sir. That's not what academic freedom is about. It's the original content. Let me teach you what I want to teach you.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:36)
Well, you know, academic freedom, Gary, it really protects faculty, not only in terms of their sort of advancing knowledge and thinking and new ideas and challenging existing norms and, you driving innovation, but it's also political freedom, to be honest with you. Now, I do agree that within higher ed, academia sometimes does tend to politicize when it shouldn't.
But no, I think it really does ensure that innovation can be fostered and critical thinking can be protected. This is about as American as apple pie, the idea that faculty should be able to speak out very clearly and without reservation. And we want to model that for our students as well.
Gary (03:28)
Joseph, Joseph, Joseph, you're trying to use synonyms here when they don't really apply. Political freedom is one thing. It's entranced in constitutional law, constitutional precedence, those kinds of things. It's not the same thing as academic freedom. That's the point I'm trying to make. Yes, Joseph, teach what you want. Please, that's academic freedom. But don't tell me that's the same thing as political freedom. It's not.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:54)
Well, you know, evidence -based practice is something that relates to academic freedom and that we should be teaching things that have data to support what it is that we're asserting. But sometimes when we're on the leading edge of knowledge, we're in kind of a new place. And those are the moments when we need to be able to talk openly, share information, and not feel that we're going to be censored because someone doesn't like what we're saying, Gary.
It's really important.
Gary (04:26)
It's a false flag. It's just a false flag. Yes, I understand there is an intellectual concern that if you're my boss and I say something you don't like, you could in theory, and in probably in isolated cases say, Gary, don't do that anymore. But it doesn't happen enough because it is in my mind right around. It's institutionalized in academic America that Joseph, you and all of our peers who teach everywhere.
can talk about what we want. Yes, there's the occasional consequence, but don't blow that up, sir, into something that is not.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (05:03)
Yeah, you know, I couldn't disagree more Gary. And I think because maybe I, you know, you haven't been in the classroom. I don't know how long has it been. I'm not sure, but you know, if I'm, I'm going to give you an example. If I'm a creationist and I want to refute evolution because it's still a theory and it has not been proven. And I'm talking about macro evolution, not micro.
You better believe that there are many places that are going to be perhaps outright hostile toward that notion. Without academic freedom and without my ability to be, you know, sort of protected in that regard, I'm going to either need to step in line or I'll be shown the door. And that's the reality that we're facing today in the U .S. And that's just one example. You could flip that as well. So.
We should have higher ed as a place for new ideas that can be debated, discussed. We should be able to agree to disagree without worrying about our livelihoods being taken away from us or worse, being ostracized in some way. This is happening across the country, Gary. We've polarized, you know, education to the point where people are almost not even able to discuss these things anymore.
Gary (06:29)
You're treating a disease, Joseph, that doesn't exist. And for listeners, Joseph and I agree on quite a few things and we disagree on many things as well. And this is one of those examples, but it's important that we share regularly the discussion format. And we really want to practice the proper way to say you're wrong. Whatever Joseph Pellerito says, and I know Joseph agrees with me, whatever I say, we'll treat that with respect.
We're not going to diss the other guy now. He even teased me about not being in the classroom. That's fair. That's fair because he's doing it in the proper tone. And that's really the essence of college counterpoints. It's not just the topics. Those are important. But it's the essence of we believe, and Joseph jump in if you want to, we believe that discussion and debate in America doesn't exist as it should be. We're using this forum to try and reinforce what we think it should be, Joseph.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (07:21)
Absolutely. And we should also share that, you know, there may be some times that we take a side on an issue to be able to illuminate that argument. And we may not even agree with it personally, but it shows that we're all in on this notion that there's real value, right? There's a value added to be able to, you know, have a meaningful dialogue. It can be spirited. It can be lively. We like to poke fun at each other.
But it doesn't have to be polarizing and it's critical for the US in particular for us to get back to being able to talk to one another, even if we agree to disagree.
Gary (07:50)
Amen. Amen.
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Joseph Pellerito Jr. (09:30)
All right. Thank you, Gary. Let's get into our next topic, shall we? You know, one of the things that we've been talking about lately is the public's trust in higher education. You know, of late, we know that there are schools that have closed unexpectedly without perhaps with the kind of transparency that we would hope they would convey. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this, Gary. I'm going to.
Gary (09:58)
you
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:00)
really take the position that at the end of the day, even with some of these challenges that we're seeing, I think we can and should trust public institutions and higher education. And there are reasons why I say that, and I'll get into that in a minute. What are your thoughts?
Gary (10:18)
Those are too many, way too many are doing their hardest.
not trust them. And I'm going to tell you a story. And it's one that I'll expand upon in the This Week in College Viability podcast on Monday. And I'm going to Notre Dame College and they closed this a couple of weeks ago. And there was a story in a local Cleveland news organization. And it was a story about a student impacted Joseph by this closure. Her name is Alexis Boyer. Feel free to use her name because it was in the story. And she was one of the, get this, one of the 70 % of Notre Dame student population.
who are student athletes. That in itself is stunning. Is this an intramural program or was this a college? It was my first question. And the young lady had played soccer at another place, Quincy University, also with some issues, and transferred to Notre Dame, I think just this year. And here's what she said after the closure. This is my life, Alexis Boyer said. This is my future. I'm paying money to go here. I had to pay money to move here. But it happened so quickly.
that now roughly 1300 undergrads at Notre Dame College in Ohio have to look forward. Here's the quote, Joseph, that just got me. And again, this is from Alexis Boyer, a student now who can't attend Notre Dame College anymore. It's crazy to think a question I have for prospective colleges is, are you financially stable? Alexis Boyer said, I never thought this could happen.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:29)
you
Gary (11:51)
And there's another big question that Alexis Boyer and all the Notre Dame students are facing right now. What happens when your college closes? But here's an even more important question. And I did a post on this earlier this week as well. Notre Dame College is partnering with I think seven other colleges, Joseph. of those seven using the college viability app are not even close to being financially healthy. Will Alexis Boyer or any of these other 1 ,300 students
to the college that closes next week.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:22)
Yeah, no, that you're you're making a tremendous point, Gary. I do feel for her and for all the students at Notre Dame College and other schools that have closed already, but the ones that are sort of imminently going to close as well. We know there are many more coming. That's what's scary. We hear about the enrollment cliff, etc. The point I wanted to make is there are.
There is an infrastructure in place that needs to be looked at. There's accreditation and I value.
help ensure quality education continues. We have expert faculty across the country. One of the things we talked about offline, Gary, is the decision makers, presidents and others, need to engage faculty in shared governance. They need to be more transparent. They need to figure out a plan.
communicate with the public and starting with their internal stakeholders, namely their students first and foremost and their families, but also faculty and staff about when they get into trouble, they know that they're in trouble. They need to convey that. And then they need to take a quicker step to establish a strategy. If it's a closure strategy, so be it. But here's the last thing, Gary, I think.
I think we need a coordinated ethical consolidation. Yes, I'm saying it. I'm coming over to your side. I don't want University of Amazon, but I do understand that we've got to have a better strategy. And so let's tap into the existing infrastructure and improve this process. What do you think?
Gary (14:05)
Stop the presses. Stop the presses.
Well, certainly. Thank you, Joseph. This would be one of probably many times when you're effectively saying, Gary, you were right. And as I keep track of our score today, I got lots of points on that one, Joseph. But let's go back to shared governance first. Now we'll talk briefly about consolidation. And again, I don't agree on shared governance. I think shared updates, shared advice and consent are appropriate. But shared governance is a misnomer.
Bosses are paid to govern, to make decisions relative to an organization. And I understand the historical reference. I understand that there are countless faculty handbooks out there that say here's how it has to be, but that's not where the industry should be in the 21st century. And on the consolidation piece, yes, I'm right. You were wrong, but now you're on board my ship. Welcome very much, Joseph. I'll get you a room on my ship. You're welcome to stay there as long as you like. But here's the piece on consolidation.
that you're gonna have to work your way through. Those faculty who believe in shared governance, they're not on the ship yet. They're not even thinking about joining us on the ship.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:32)
Absolutely, because they haven't been privy to what the decision makers, presidents and others are privy to. But I think if we are promoting more transparency, I believe faculty are intelligent. I think they're generally very caring. And I think they could bring another perspective to help. Because let me ask you something, Gary.
It couldn't hurt, could it? I mean, are the decision makers in the US doing a bang up job with being transparent and, you know, laying out a viable pathway to either consolidation or closure that's ethical and open?
Gary (16:07)
Thank you.
You know what? I hate it when you make a good point because then I have to reach down on the scorecard and give you points. And I just did that because you make a great point. Yeah, you're right. It's it's almost in too many cases, Dr. Pellarito, embarrassing that these college leaders and I think in large part the boards just as much. And I'm going to use the word clueless. People are going to say that's too harsh, but I see it so often and.
My work on a daily basis is looking at these folks. You're right. You're right. The governance piece is a mess. I don't know that adding the shared governance piece or keeping the shared governance piece is a solution, but you made a great point.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:02)
What about if we were to also take it one step further and look to alumni, students and their families to play a greater role in these transitions that are inevitable, rather than getting to the point where students like the young woman you were referring to earlier, who my heart aches for, is simply getting a pink slip in her mailbox. There's gotta be a better way, Gary, and I'm suggesting we need to be more inclusive.
with these various stakeholder groups.
All right. Yeah, why don't we, let me talk about a new app that I think is incredible. I use it myself in my own personal life with my daughter, who's a senior in high school, but I also use it as a college administrator. The college viability app has been so helpful.
We're expected to share our finances with colleges, Gary. Why shouldn't colleges be expected to do the same? We're talking about transparency. So, FAFSA and reverse FAFSA. How many of us have filled out FAFSA forms for our children? Of course, those share our financial information with colleges. And so let's expect them to do the same. What if there were a reverse FAFSA?
Gary (18:28)
you
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:31)
What if there were a tool that students and their families could use to determine if a college was financially healthy enough to provide a quality college education? I dare say the young woman that we've been referring to may not be in the position that she's in today. Of course, that solution is the 2024 Parent College Viability app for students and their families. I can say directly, I've used the app.
and I really love it. I appreciate it. It compares college enrollments, graduation rates, and so much more. It's available today at collegeviability .com. That's collegeviability .com. It's only fair that students and their families should know the financial health of colleges in the U .S. that they're considering. That's collegeviability .com. It's really...
really a great investment.
Gary (19:34)
So Joseph, you were just talking about college leadership in the context of shared governance. Let's move on to our two news stories. And of course, each week we do two topics and two news stories is the format that we use here. We try and go about 20 to 30 minutes each week. Inside Higher Education, just a couple of weeks ago, posted their annual results of surveys from college presidents. And Joseph, I'm going to offer the leading question here. And I posted on this and I read the story from Inside Higher Education.
And this, Dr. P, is just another example, almost a typical example, of college leadership institutional delusion. And it's shown in the context of what they're effectively saying in most but not all cases, is I'm okay, but no one else is. Joseph, how many times, and I've shared this with you both online and offline, how many times, sir, have we heard of colleges that effectively say, we're fine, we're fine, we're fine, we're fine?
We're closed.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (20:37)
Well, you know, Gary, I appreciate what you're saying, but I've got to tell you, you know, when are you going to follow up the criticism with maybe a recommendation or a suggestion for a solution? You know, I understand it's, you know, you with all due respect, my friend, you're pointing out the obvious. We need more trans, we need more transparency and we need sort of an ethical.
a position in terms of what's being communicated. So what say you?
Gary (21:14)
You know, I don't think I like you anymore because you're asking. Of course I'm teasing. It's a fair question. It is. And the solution I think goes back to something you mentioned. I teased you about a minute ago and that's the consolidation piece. We've talked about it before. We'll talk about it again. It's an economic situation. There are too many college seats and there are not enough college students willing to put their college behinds and pay for those seats.
out there and until we get something closer to economic equilibrium where there's a match of seats available and students willing to pay seats, we're going to see continued closures. And you've heard my versions, the closure phase we're in now. And we're going to look back in two or three years and say, oh, you know what, in that 2022, 2024, 25 timeframe, that was the closure period. I think we're living it right now. And what will follow that will be significant and substantial consolidation.
And I think my operating premise is that consolidation will not be Joseph in the form of one or two colleges. It will be 10 or 15 or 20 and geography won't matter. Mission will.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (22:26)
Yeah, you know, it's probably worth also mentioning, Gary, when we talk about consolidation, some of our listeners may not equate that word with what you equate it with. Would you mind sort of sharing your thoughts on that? Because I think when I, when I think about consolidation, I think about closures.
Gary (22:49)
And throw a question and then I probably missed the vote on that one. And in my mind, consolidation takes two forms. And the first is closure. Because when a college closes, that's a form of consolidating the industry. Those 1 ,300 students at Notre Dame College, statistics show us that about half of those will go to another college. So half go to another college, half leave the higher education market. That's a gross generalization, I understand, but that's what the stats have shown over the last couple of years. So the first part of consolidation is closure.
The second part of consolidation, those outside of higher education would call that M &A or mergers and acquisitions. Well, okay, mergers will work and they have happened in higher education. And just like the model I shared with you a minute ago, sometime in the late 20s, we'll see large scale mergers in higher education. There will be 10 or 15 colleges come together. I don't know if it will be a public or private mix. I just don't know.
But the acquisition piece of the M &A mergers and acquisitions probably not going to happen that much in higher education because that involves the exchange of cash and that's just not where the predominant non -for -profit and public college entities are. There's not going to be many if any acquisitions in my mind, but the market is so immature I could be wrong on that.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:13)
Yeah, no, it's really thank you Gary. That's really helpful and I think moving forward it'll be interesting if we can try to focus on not only being critical and constructively critical, but if we can continue to maybe offer some recommendations moving forward. So I'll I'll I'm gonna keep you to that. I know that's gonna be difficult for you, but we'll we'll we'll work on it. So let's.
Gary (24:40)
So last news story for the day is, my apologies Joseph, last news story for the day just came out yesterday and Hekenger, the Hekenger report came out with a story and I'll read the headline, the FAFSA fiasco, that's some alliteration for you, the FAFSA fiasco could roll back years of progress, it must be fixed immediately. And this was an opinion. And effectively it says because FAFSA and the Department of Education and our federal government just have messed it up every which way but loose.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:43)
Yep.
Gary (25:10)
that the good folks at FAFSA are effectively, I'm sorry, the good folks at Hechinger are effectively saying there are going to be more colleges closed because FAFSA is such a mess. And you know what, Joseph? They are absolutely positively correct.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (25:26)
Gary, don't be such an alarmist, my friend.
Gary (25:33)
Hang on, I've got a tear forming in my eye. Alarmist, here's the rest of the story, as the late Paul Harvey, the late great Paul Harvey would say. The rest of the story is small private colleges, and typically those in the middle of nowhere, rural areas, they're living and dying these days with the last five, 10, maybe 20 students that choose to go to their college or not go to their college. And the FASA Joseph -
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (25:35)
Yeah
Gary (26:02)
if you get that bag off your head, you'll realize this. If you get that bag off your head, you'll realize that the FAFSA is gonna make that number happen more often where these 10 or 15 or 20 students say, you know what?
It's not worth the hassle to go to college for so many reasons, including the fact that I can't get financial aid because the government is sc -
calming alarmist.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (26:28)
Sometimes I feel like the unknown comedian with the bag on my head when I'm talking to you, Gary. Yeah. No, I understand that it's a debacle, but so what do we do about it, Gary? I mean, you know, people are quick to point out the problems. They're quick to criticize, you know, good people who are no doubt doing their very best. I understand it's inconvenient.
I understand it's complicated things and it's even increased some stress and anxiety for parents like myself and others, but what do we do about it, Gary?
Gary (27:09)
So I sense a trend with your question.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (27:12)
Yes.
Gary (27:13)
nothing. The market is acting. Whether we're buying computers or bananas or cars or houses, we saw the realtor store yesterday, the markets always adjust. The FAFSA is a negative contributor and an outlier to the market adjusting, but you and I and outside of the parents and their students making the decisions, we do nothing because the market forces are what are making these decisions. Not you, not me, not any marketing person, not any -
person, not any college leader. It's the market Dr. Pellerito. That's it.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (27:51)
All right, Gary. Well, let's wrap up today's segment and great show today, Gary. Really enjoyed it. But I want to before we close, I want to ask you what your score is. I want to remind you to be certain to add all the technical fouls that you received in your.
in your edition there.
Gary (28:13)
Well, you know, Joseph, I had you with five points today, but I'm taking one because you accused me of having a technical foul. So you're down to four points. I gave myself five points for the Notre Dame College story and that awful story about that poor young woman and three points I gave myself on academic freedom because I was almost brilliant. So Joseph, I broke my two week losing streak. I win today eight to four.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (28:30)
you
Yeah, we'll see how you do next week when I get to do the scoring. You might lose the home field advantage.
Gary (28:45)
You know, we probably should do that. We probably should do that.
Ha ha ha.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (28:54)
Anyway, for Dr. Gary Stocker, I am Joseph Pellerito. Let's get together again next week, shall we? Take care, everybody.