Why the Best Recruiters Think Like Business Partners with Denzel Mutoko, Senior Talent Acquisition Partner at Dealmaker

In this episode, Martin Hauck interviews Denzel Mutoko, a senior talent acquisition partner at Dealmaker. They discuss Denzel's unique learning preferences, his journey in recruitment, the transition from agency to in-house roles, and the impact of AI on the recruitment process. Denzel shares insights on the importance of personal development, the tools he uses in his work, and his philosophy on balancing work and life. The conversation concludes with valuable advice for job seekers and reflections on the future of talent acquisition.

02:05 - Meet Denzel Mutoko
11:31 - From Dubai to recruitment
15:18 - Agency vs. in-house recruiting
18:50 - Why he left agency recruitment
20:43 - Building a career beyond work
23:22 - The future of talent acquisition
24:51 - AI tools every recruiter should know
27:44 - Why AI can't replace resume screening
30:18 - How Denzel uses ChatGPT, Claude & Gemini
33:10 - Building AI tools for recruiters
35:38 - The future of AI in hiring
38:03 - Staying relevant in an AI-driven world
41:17 - Interview advice every candidate should know
42:26 - Why there's more to life than work
44:35 - Losing your identity through work
46:50 - The mindset that changed everything
49:32 - Closing thoughts

Creators and Guests

Host

Martin Hauck

Co-Founder of The People People Group & Host of From A People Perspective

What is From A People Perspective?

A podcast about fascinating professionals, how they got to where they are and where they’re going from the lens HR, Recruitment and People Operations hosted by Martin Hauck.

Martin Hauck (02:05)
All right, welcome back to another episode of from a people perspective. I'm your host Martin Hawk and today we've got Denzel Mutoko. Thanks for joining us today.

Denzel Mutoko (02:16)
Thank you for having me, excited to be here.

Martin Hauck (02:18)
Yeah. So you were a senior talent acquisition partner at dealmaker. And yeah, so much to talk about. But before we jumped on here, we were just talking a bit about background, how it's not yours, how you're in Montreal right now. So you can't speak to all the cool stuff behind you. But you were said you're saying something interesting about being a visual

Denzel Mutoko (02:41)
Visual learner also ⁓ more of an audio person when it comes to especially like reading books. And it's a hot take, but this is just my philosophy of life. ⁓ First of all, I don't like walking. And people will be like, why don't you like walking? It's good. But I think walking is inefficient if I'm trying to get from point A to point B, unless...

You're in downtown Toronto, it's actually physically faster to walk than sitting in a car. But for me, I'd rather take, for example, streetcar, bike, ⁓ subway, the most efficient mode of transportation. So that ties back to reading. Me personally, I'm a slow reader. Obviously people say if you read more, you become a lot quicker, all of that. But if I'm trying to read something to ⁓ inherit and get the knowledge as quick as possible.

Martin Hauck (03:11)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Denzel Mutoko (03:39)
I want to either listen to it because I could either not multitask, but I could also consume those a lot quicker or watch it in documentary, for example. ⁓ So this is my take about life and reading. I need definitely to get more into it. People say it's good for you, which I'm sure it is because there's probably studies around it. But ⁓ if someone gives me the option to read the book or get it as an audio or potentially watch a documentary of the same book.

Martin Hauck (03:49)
Okay.

Denzel Mutoko (04:09)
I will go documentary, audio, then read it.

Martin Hauck (04:13)
love this. I love this on so many levels. And I'm very biased. And I think I've talked about it a couple times. I even did an entire podcast episode about it. So have you heard of aphantasia? Okay, so aphantasia, I'm curious now. So when you close your eyes, and you try to visualize like an apple, for example, do you see anything? You can so you can see it.

Denzel Mutoko (04:24)
No.

Yeah.

When I, I quote my husband business and Apple as in yes.

Martin Hauck (04:45)
Yeah.

Okay, and so like, give me ⁓ like, do you see it on a background? Is it just like, blackness and then you see the apple just shows up? Is it a green apple? Well, talk to me about the apple.

Denzel Mutoko (04:59)
It's just my most recent memory of an apple and it's not even a green apple. It's just an apple. During our work, we have a snack station and the apple's in a white bowl. when when the first thing you said, think about an apple, ⁓ I went back to my most recent memory of when I last touched or picked up an apple and it was during that situation.

Martin Hauck (05:11)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, cool. So the reason so aphantasia is and so for a second there when you were describing your like learning preferences, it was like similar to mine. So I have aphantasia aphantasia and this is not what the podcast is, but we're just getting into some fun icebreakers here. But aphantasia is the inability to visualize anything. So I like I close my eyes. And for my entire life, it's been nothing but just black. All I see is that

There's nothing if I visualize something, it's just not it's not happening. So like in class or like meditation, like visualize yourself on a beach, like it's not happening. I don't, there's no sensations. There's no visualizations whatsoever. And so I've always found that I learned differently. And like people are like, you got to read this book, or you've got to like do this thing. And like, it just doesn't stick. It doesn't like, I have to learn through conversation. That's part part of the reason why I do this podcast.

And it's just like, love like hearing people's stories and that, hearing, learning about things through story. And, and so it was interesting. Like I just like, I always gravitate towards that because so many people don't know it doesn't exist.

Denzel Mutoko (06:29)
And to

your point, actually, let me get you off is like, and what I explained to you, I could only imagine it because I've been through it. that's why, because that's so, for example, you mentioned an apple for some books, they're like, you know, I some books, for example, Harry Potter. can't, I've never physically rolled on a stick or I can't envision that stuff. So if someone tells me to imagine, just imagine it, I can't imagine something I have never experienced. ⁓

Martin Hauck (06:58)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (06:59)
For the apple example, wasn't the best one because I could have seen it eat an apple. But when it comes to like the sci-fi and the stuff that I haven't experienced myself, I'm like, I can't imagine that. Like I can't picture it in my head. And that's what most books are. So from that point of view, but yeah, if books were more apples than oranges, then yes, I'll be able to read more books and imagine it.

Martin Hauck (07:12)
Yeah.

Interesting.

So are you saying that you like absolutely can't or it's just that like if you try to like imagine something that you've never personally experienced, cause I've never heard about this before. it's, it's just doesn't happen.

Denzel Mutoko (07:33)
I can't. Yeah, that's the thing.

If I close my eyes and someone tells me, so tell me if I close my eyes and imagine yourself surfing, I've never surfed. I cannot imagine myself. Like there's this person was surfing down the big waves. can't imagine that because I've never surfed down big waves. I've been in a pool. been in the ocean, but I've never surfed. So.

Martin Hauck (07:59)
wild. I've never heard of I've got to I feel like I've got to share like a clip of this podcast on like Reddit because I follow the channel for Fantasia because I'm obsessed with this. ⁓ anyways, wild. That's so cool. All right. So next way less personal question. ⁓ If you had to choose one album to listen to or one musical artist for the rest of time, which one would you be listening to?

Denzel Mutoko (08:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what? If you ask me this, like probably like five years ago, it would be Beyonce. Beyonce is one of my favorite artists. But in the last recent five years, I've trended more towards house music and more towards music that doesn't have lyrics. And it's more just sounds and beats. So if I had to pick one artist at the of my head, his name is Hugh Gale.

Martin Hauck (08:33)
Okay.

Denzel Mutoko (08:54)
⁓ or Black Coffee, but it's less of a lyric album. I would say Beyonce and I'll say one of her older albums as well.

Martin Hauck (09:05)
Okay. Okay. Nice. ⁓ yeah, no, I, I do love a non, like I can't even concentrate if I'm listening. I can't, I can't do work and listen to music with lyrics. It's just not happening. I don't know if you have that, but no, it's just like, I'm, I'm listening to every word they're saying, even if I've heard the song before, like, unless I've listened to it like a hundred times, it's just like, no, I gotta, I gotta pay attention to that kind of thing. It's just not happening. ⁓

Denzel Mutoko (09:18)
Yeah, exactly, not at all.

Yeah,

it's definitely people that listen to music with lyrics. I've also listened to other podcasts called The Mindset Mentor. I don't know you know or heard of it. ⁓ he also mentions that people... This is a hot take, one of the hot takes. People shouldn't multitask.

Martin Hauck (09:45)
Hmm. No.

Denzel Mutoko (09:57)
In the sense that when they're doing one task, they should dedicate 100 % of the time to the task. Even when it comes to my day to day, for example, people, I've spoken to some talent acquisition folks here. I normally screen resumes while watching TV and stuff like that. But then you actually, if you just spend 100 % of your time screening resumes, you can actually go a lot quicker than watching TV and screening resumes. So you might as well just dedicate 100 % of your time. this brings me back to music. Sometimes I don't even like listening to music when I'm...

Martin Hauck (09:57)
Yep.

Denzel Mutoko (10:27)
doing work because I get carried away, get lost in the music, lyrics or not. And I'd rather just 100 % focus on the work and then be able to 100 % focus on the music and take it from there. But yeah.

Martin Hauck (10:39)
I mean, I've I've I talked to my mentor today. Actually, it was hilarious. I rarely like maybe once a year. And he had that mindset as well. He's like, there's no such thing as multitasking. You have to be like 100 % focused on the thing that you're doing. And I mean, I find it to be true. And I agree. And there's a trend, there's a theme coming out of this conversation. And I'm even when we met at the the talent acquisition dinner, like earlier this year,

I was just like sitting beside you for I think like was sort of like after after the main main dinner part and we just started chatting and I'm like, I want to let's we got to do a podcast. I want to learn more, hear more. What's your story was so so interesting, so captivating. And that's what we're here to do today. So like, maybe tee it up for folks. I know, like, obviously, you're you're a dealmaker right now. But like, yeah, like walk us through how you got into to what you're doing where and how you got to where you are today.

Denzel Mutoko (11:13)
Yeah.

100 % so little than Zell born and raised in Dubai. ⁓ The Middle East was a warmer and a lot warmer than here. I'm looking outside it's raining it's really dark it's only it's only 420. I'm in training it's really dark but quite the opposite so born and raised in Dubai ⁓ and then kind of went to school. ⁓ I my passion and love has always been football.

Martin Hauck (11:42)
Okay.

You

Denzel Mutoko (12:05)
what you guys call soccer, and did all of that, played throughout my whole life, career. And then ⁓ once upon a time, actually did the team I played for in Dubai. We actually went to a tournament in Denmark. ⁓ And that's where some universities were at and kind of got the initial look at what Dunsley can do.

Um, and then after that, um, after graduation, I actually got the opportunity to go to McGill, um, where I was able to get some soccer for them. Um, and then what brought me fast forward, I actually started studying for, so that's what brought me to Canada. And then I was studying, I was in the commerce school. I was studying economics and finance. No one teaches you about HR. No one teaches you about recruitment or anything like that in school. You don't even hear of it. It's not, it's not even a, it's not even a

topic of discussion. At least in business school, that's for sure. Definitely a topic of discussion. And then I was actually in a fraternity ⁓ during my time in McGill. ⁓ And someone from my fraternity was like, did you know you could make just as much money in recruitment as you can in investment banking? And then I'll...

Martin Hauck (13:00)
out.

Yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (13:22)
And then I was like, hmm, because in school, either in business school, you either go into investment banking, you go into consulting. Like those are the only two, those are the main, those are the mainstream ones. So someone's like, do know you could do that? And this is after I graduated. And I was obviously looking for my next kind of career opportunity. I remember this very vividly because I experienced it. I was in France and I kind of had my first call with the first recruitment agency director that I was potentially going to work at.

Martin Hauck (13:29)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (13:51)
had the first call with him and he was like, love to have you on board. I went to, met one or two other individuals. ⁓ and then I kind of like took the risk and stumbled upon agency recruitment just like that. with no prior experience, not knowing myself into just knowing that I can.

Martin Hauck (14:08)
nothing. You're just baptized

in recruitment. That was your first gig.

Denzel Mutoko (14:13)
That's my first gig, just knowing in the back of my mind, if I hustle and if I give a hundred percent, I could make lots of money. That is what was my goal. didn't even know what recruitment was. didn't even know what I was going to be recruiting for. ⁓ didn't know, like, I didn't even know what it meant. just, all I meant is means if I filled X amount of seats, I get paid Y amount. How many seats have to get paid in order to get Y squared? And that's how I kind of stumbled upon.

recruitment and the rest was kind of I could walk you through everything but the rest is kind of history but that's what brought me to where I am today.

Martin Hauck (14:49)
Yeah.

You haven't a true blue recruiter. You like got into it. You love it. This is what you're doing. This is what you're going to do. ⁓ and you know, maybe that'll change, but I definitely want to kind of talk about how your mindset has shifted over the years. And, and, know, maybe like it's, looks and sounds like you started off in the agency world and now you're in house. Maybe. Yeah. Like not everybody gets that experience. I had that experience and.

Denzel Mutoko (15:12)
Yeah.

Martin Hauck (15:18)
It feels like, I could not have been, I feel like I would do it that way versus like if you went in house and then you went agency side, I feel like you would go back to in in-house pretty quickly.

Denzel Mutoko (15:32)
There's always this double edged sword. guess me and you are also kind of fortunate, very lucky because there is this stigma in the industry is once you do agency, you're not going to be very good at in-house. It's very different. And it's even harder to go from in-house agency because of the pace of what they say. But I think it kind of stems down to like the individual and the person, which ⁓ many companies don't realize because

They're looking for people prior experience. the way I kind of moved into that kind of hemisphere is I was fortunate enough to, during my recruitment time, I was able to hit lots of metrics, lots of success very early on. And I was able to take on ownership of different client groups that I was actually supporting them from an on-premise perspective. So I would go in, support them from an on-premise, kind of be engraved and included into their

Martin Hauck (16:21)
Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (16:27)
the Italian acquisition to say per se. ⁓ and that's how I kind of made that segue from agency. I ended up working in front of my clients that I supported while still being at the agency, I just went through them full time. So that's how I kind of made my transition over from agency into in-house by supporting the client from an agency perspective with like, Hey, we'd to have you on board, bring you up here. ⁓ and then. Wasn't the best. would say for me, the

Martin Hauck (16:48)
Right.

Denzel Mutoko (16:56)
the industry I moved into where I didn't see myself in the long term, like the CPG, that side of the house. And I was always chasing for that fintech, that exciting kind of financial opportunity, and then kind of made the right pieces of moves. I actually went from agency to in-house, back to agency for a bit, and then now in-house. From that perspective, I was fortunate enough to be able to move back and forth, but I feel it comes down to being able to adapt.

And when I say adapt, being able to, for example, what doesn't change, at least in my philosophy, is the white glove treatment that both stakeholders, clients, and candidates get. And that can be transferred both agency. And so that's what I keep consistent and kind of gets me through the way.

Martin Hauck (17:40)
Mm-hmm.

understand.

In terms of ⁓ this is really interesting because I've not seen or heard too many times being being able to go back and forth between like, yes, you go from one to the other. Then going back, there's there's a different angle. Do you what's what's your approach right now? Like, what are you? What's what's top of mind? Like, why are you in house versus on the agency side? There is a difference in terms of like, I guess like

potential lucrative side of it. Like that's that was the appealing side for me is like, you can make all this money on the agency side. And that's what I got into it. ⁓ And then and then slowly over time, for me, at least there was this like, a I just loved the work. I love talking to people meeting new people and being playing a small part in people's careers and lives. But then, then, then things kind of shifted when I went in house and like,

All those things that remain the same, but I guess like, what are your motivations or what were your motivations to kind of like stay in house and go from there?

Denzel Mutoko (18:50)
⁓

At the beginning, it was just being fully transparent, definitely solely motivated around comp and money. But then it came to a point where I found myself doing lots of the same repetitive tasks and repetitive kind of processes in the agency world. In the sense that because I was so good at my craft,

Martin Hauck (18:58)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (19:16)
All I was looking to, um, because I was so good at my craft, I kept on filling the same kind of positions. I built a network. I was able to fill them fast. It was able to, I was able to hit my numbers. So I became an expert in filling the exact same positions. Like I would say like 200 times, for example. Um, and then I talked to myself is. I don't know I want to be doing this like forever. Like the money is great, but I also want to learn a new skill. I want to challenge myself. I want to develop and all of that. That's what kind of started ringing in the belt.

of moving away from the agency side of the world. And I also found myself, which is earlier on, my motivations change in the sense that today I am less fueled by income. I have also pivoted to, I've also changed, my philosophy in life has also changed a bit is that I love what I do, but I also want to be able to do the stuff I love.

So what that means is I love what I do. I love working with the talent. I love working with people. But then, for example, ⁓ doing personal life events, I've torn my Achilles twice. ⁓ doing both times, that means ⁓ in the last four years, I was unable to do full active activity for two of those years because the recovery is almost nine months each year. During that time,

Martin Hauck (20:41)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (20:43)
⁓ I found new hobbies, one of them being spin. ⁓ And I found myself that I love doing that and I want to dedicate some more time to that. So I was like, maybe I could become a spin instructor, which I ended up doing. And I ended up loving and continuing to do while still having my corporate job from that perspective. And with agency, I used to find myself

Martin Hauck (20:47)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (21:11)
so deep in the work and always chasing that next hire and forgetting about the other stuff I love in life that I wanted to incorporate more into my life. So those are motivations also kind of changed from that perspective and why I decided to make the move away from agency more talent in house. And also what I, from my perspective and my experiences have been so fortunate enough, I was able to grow more than just a talent.

Martin Hauck (21:20)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (21:40)
Acquisition, let's say execution person to be more for talents advisor to I've always also wanted to get some flavor to business partnering, kind of expanding. We call it becoming like a T-shaped employee. ⁓ I have lots of, I have lots of experience in talent acquisition recruitment, but I also want to get experience on the horizon as it comes to like business partnering and polarization. So I want to be able, I want to get exposure to that. ⁓ and which you don't get as much like in the agency world.

Martin Hauck (21:44)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You get, ⁓ agency world is your recruiter. And like that is it. You're there to, produce candidates and, and close candidates. Whereas, yeah. The fun part is when, when you're internal, yeah, you, get to, there's so many more opportunities and knocks at the door for you to be like, can I get involved with this project? It's unrelated to recruitment and like, we've got a stand up.

Denzel Mutoko (22:15)
Yes.

Martin Hauck (22:37)
you know, hiring in this completely new country and you get to play a role and, know, determining which country's, you know, going to be best for the organization, whatever the case might be. Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (22:45)
the best, ⁓ or like compensation structure. ⁓

for example, the way I see it is ⁓ recruitment, ⁓ to put it in the financial terms is consulting, because you're coming in, you're helping different clients, you don't really know what happened to the candidates after they get promoted, or after they see success, or like after you place them, and they've gone over to the client versus talent in-house is like working in-house in a company.

So some people love the consulting world, that's why they're And some people want to see projects end to end. And that's why they go in-house, that's how I see it.

Martin Hauck (23:22)
Nice. So now, I get let's let's kind of zoom in on the present you're at dealmaker, your senior talent acquisition professional, you've been in recruitment for how long would you say just in general?

Denzel Mutoko (23:37)
I started

in September 2019 and that was my first job.

Martin Hauck (23:41)
2019. So

you've been at it? Yeah. Seven, seven, eight years, almost a decade. And there's it's what's insane is the amount of change in like the last two years, let alone so I'm just curious, like, right now, what are you paying attention to as as the talent acquisition professional? Like what's caught your eye? What tools are you excited about?

What tools are you using? What strategies are you using now that you weren't using like six months ago or 12 months ago? what, give me a sense of what's changed there.

Denzel Mutoko (24:16)
Perfect. mean, of things have been changing and adapting. Yeah. When did I start? That's like, what, 2019? Five years ago, six years ago. But like lots of change. Like for example, especially right now, also where am today is DealMaker is a lot more of an outbound motion. to give you a perspective, probably only go over like maybe I'll take 10 applications per role, inbound applications. The rest is all outbound. So the rest is all outbound sourcing, all of that.

Martin Hauck (24:24)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (24:45)
The main thing that's been changing that's been out to our benefit is ⁓ AI. That's number one. We'll touch upon that. That'd be bucket number eight. ⁓

Martin Hauck (24:51)
Mm hmm. Yeah. We got to talk about it. It's it's you can't avoid it. And like everywhere

you look like my the water I poured this morning was ridiculous. Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (24:59)
There's AI, 100%.

The number one is AI. Number two, in terms of the tooling, there's been an introduction of many tools that this has allowed me to get time back. For example, like MetaView or a form of note-taking in interviews from that perspective. That's been a big time saver because normally you've been in the role where you're trying to type in candidates' while trying to talk to them, while trying to do everything.

Martin Hauck (25:24)
Thank

Denzel Mutoko (25:28)
It gets a lot. You can take a step back, listen, observe, ⁓ and take some information in.

Martin Hauck (25:36)
I've got a

terrible story for you that you're probably going to cringe at and it's going to date me but ⁓ there was this my first like agency role. had like my monitor right beside me and but I was like I was really struggling with note taking and there was like there's no note like it was where like you would fax your resume in and

Denzel Mutoko (25:57)
Okay.

Martin Hauck (25:58)
And like, I would meet every candidate that I wanted to in person at the office and people would drive to the office to meet me, we would do an interview, there's no phone screens, like we would do a phone screen, but then I would meet in person. That was part of the firm's thing is like, we meet everybody in person. And so I would have these people show up for the meeting and like, I'm terrible with writing down on a piece of paper. But so I was like, you know what, I'm going to just make it so that like, listen. And so for like, there was like two weeks where I tried like having my

monitor off to the side and I would just sit there in front of people with my keyboard and like, I'm just gonna take notes while we're talking is the most awkward idea I've ever had in my entire life. And you're like, yeah, things like meta view and all these other tools are like such a lifesaver because like, I wish I could go back to that age because it was just so it was so cringy, like just me sitting there just typing out everything they were saying while they're on. huh. Yeah. huh.

Denzel Mutoko (26:52)
Yeah, exactly.

And then you have to, and they stop talking. And it was so hard to sometimes make a conversation flow because like, you're like, wait, can you repeat that? Can you repeat it one more time? I then miss that. Oh, you said something really good there. you bring that back? So no, I've been there and someone like me as well. I talk fast, so I'm also being more conscious to like slow down, but there's also other people out there. I don't know about you, but I would say at least 90 % of the people in the world can talk faster than I can type.

Martin Hauck (27:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (27:21)
So yeah,

so there's some people that talk about slow and able to capture it, but for the most bit, people tend to talk fast and archetype. And I'm a pretty fast sniper, but people can talk quicker. that's been one of a game changer tool or a version of that tool. Another hot take, I don't think AI has been able to save time in terms of like screening resumes. People will be like, oh, AI can help you screen resumes. There's something, no, there's something about me, like there's,

Martin Hauck (27:32)
Yeah.

It's not there yet.

Denzel Mutoko (27:51)
Something about AI is very black and white in the sense that they can't see of the accomplishments and content. Or they can't put, I would say, a score on it. Yes, you can train it. Yes, you could tell them to capture achievement. it depends also how AI reads it. Because some resumes may not be accessible to read to AI. They're not. We don't know the back end. At least I don't know the back end of what the AI can read or not from the app perspective.

Martin Hauck (28:10)
Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (28:21)
That's number one. And also number two is I may be old school, but like, I still value someone being able to run a marathon, someone that is ⁓ able to juggle different kind of like, would say activities at the same time, which I'm not saying it's going to be a slam dunk individual, slam dunk candidate, but I'll like, I'll be more like, I'd be actually intrigued to speak to them to be like, Hey, let me like hear a more about their story.

Um, because you'll be surprised, um, from that standpoint, which I don't think AI can kind of, I would say suss out just yet, um, from that perspective. it hasn't, I haven't really been using it from a resume screening perspective, more from a note taking more about taking all the administrative side and all the admin tasks away, making it a bit more easier. Um, like for example, when it comes to candidate communication, when comes to email responses, Slack message, all of that.

Martin Hauck (28:54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (29:14)
AI has made things a lot easier. So I saved so much time there. like, I was also part of the days where I have to proofread this email before sending it to a client, like four times, six times, you know? Like you want to make sure there's no typos, no errors. Like, so I was, I was still part of that process in that time. So AI has definitely saved a lot of time from there. And also these days as well, ⁓ applicant tracking systems are also upgrading back their game. they're

Martin Hauck (29:22)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (29:41)
The Ashby's are cool as they're also upgrading in terms of what they offer, is like, compared to then is like, honestly, some of the ATS that have worked through they're like almost tonnage compared to what's coming out now. So definitely on the up and up from also from an applicant tracking system. So outside of AI, also MetaV for that. Also, what other tools am I using these days?

Martin Hauck (29:51)
you much.

What's, what's like a non recruiting tool that you use on a day to day basis that still, mean, because you're a recruiter, you benefit from it, but it's not necessarily like, Oh, this is like recruiting tech.

Denzel Mutoko (30:18)
like chat, LGBT and Gemini and Claude. Yeah. So chat, LGBT, Gemini.

Martin Hauck (30:20)
Claude. Okay. Talk to me about

how you use those differently because everybody it's interesting. It's like, I go to like if they were grocery stores, like I only go to Claude for ice cream and I only go to chat GPT for granola and like what's what's your approach with these LLMS?

Denzel Mutoko (30:36)
Cloud

for presentations. ⁓ actually make better presentations. So I have a paid version of Shatchi PT. I don't have a paid version of Cloud. Gemini is enterprise-wide. ⁓ So I've actually broken down to a T. Glad you asked. Glad you asked this. Cloud for presentations. Gemini for actually making visuals. For example, infographics. ⁓ And also things to add when I'm

Martin Hauck (30:54)
Okay, no. ⁓

Denzel Mutoko (31:05)
ever presenting any dashboards, all of that. What Gemini does great as an enterprise, it can connect to other Google-related documents, like Google Sheets. ⁓ It can also connect to your Google Doc. So for example, sometimes if I'm ⁓ running any analysis or if I record a meeting and it goes into my Gemini Google document, on my Gemini, I could actually be at this document.

reference it in your response, all of that. So it kind of connects all my Google Sheets, enterprise wise, plus it's great on creating infographics. ChatGPT is in and everything else. I use my ChatGPT to fact check my Gemini. So whatever output Gemini does, I actually copy paste it on the ChatGPT and fact check it. Irrestructive. I don't think Gemini is there.

yet in my opinion to operate on its own. Let me tell you that. And then perplexity is what I do for, think perplexity trumps Gemini, Claude, all of them when it comes to deep research. But I'm trying to understand what is the average compensation of engineers in Columbia. I actually don't even bother with Gemini ⁓ or Claude. Sometimes I use chat, but perplexity actually gives you...

Martin Hauck (32:07)
Yeah.

Right. Right.

Denzel Mutoko (32:32)
links, where it's founded, all of that. So when I'm doing deep research on something, I'm always using Perplexity. And then I take it from Perplexity, draft it in prompt, and send it to put in a nice little report in ChatGBT. So ChatGBT is like the father of all, and I use it to fact check everything. And then obviously the children are like clawed Perplexity from that aspect. But that's how I use them.

Martin Hauck (32:54)
Yeah. Wild.

Now that's so I'm glad I asked. It's such a cool response. Like, yeah, there's so many different things. Have you have you you've jumped into any of like the vibe coding stuff or like coding with these tools?

Denzel Mutoko (33:10)
Not yet, but as of my next project, I am trying to build out ⁓ either a sourcing agent. So I already built one out with Notebook LM, but that's just internal for DealMaker that will help. So for example, as I continue to scale and grow, I'm not saying this is going to replace people's jobs, so don't quote me on that. But you know how some companies have sourcers?

And that's what I'm looking to kind of build out with Notebook LM, where we could provide hiring managers with this tool that they could source at their fingertips as well. So ⁓ it'll mean that they do like, they just have to enter a couple of prompts, put that into Google, because now Google, could do extra searches on Google and they could be like, Hey, I've source connected all these candidates. Once they get back to me, once they get back to them, then I connect with them. So

Martin Hauck (33:49)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (34:06)
So then, so they don't actually don't need the purpose of a sourcer because every MBD, MBD wants a source, can use that to help them source. And it's as as copying and pasting. They don't have to have any prior knowledge about any recruitment, all the issues, the job description. Hey, give me a Google X-ray search, post that into Google, see what kind it's like, get it back to me ⁓ and go from there. So that's what I'm building. I'm trying to build next. So ⁓ if it passes the POC, the prototype A,

maybe Vibe code that, I call it Scout AI. So that's number one. That's number one that I'm thinking about. And then I know that I'm also trying to see, I know there are tools for scheduling out there, but like this is like you mentioned present, you mentioned past, present and future. I think future comes in, you know how hiring managers have like,

Martin Hauck (34:42)
Okay.

Denzel Mutoko (35:06)
Sometimes the calendar can be booked, but it's a meeting that you can override. For example, it's a one-on-one, but there other employees that they can move. If you use a scheduling tool, they can't tell you that because it's a book meeting. They don't know it. But I want to be able to, at future states, have something that knows that one-on-ones could be moved, internal meetings can be moved. If it's not a certain meeting, it could be moved. So going into that future state when it comes to scheduling, that would be nice and what I'm thinking about feasibility. ⁓

Martin Hauck (35:13)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (35:35)
and the future for an AI use case.

Martin Hauck (35:38)
Yeah. I mean, imagine you're in the year you're feeling the pain of like calendar Tetris where it's like, at the end of the day, the thing that's going to close this role is people meeting people. And if I have to wait a week for this candidate to meet the hiring manager, meanwhile, there's like three or four slots that I don't know about that. I can't even tap into because their calendar doesn't, it's just like almost another layer. Like I imagine like you knock on Google's door.

And you'd be like, Hey, listen, can you make it so that like hiring managers or people just in general can like highlight meetings as movable like internally? Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (36:15)
Exactly. Put a note,

put like even a different color. These can't be moved. These can be moved. then, and then do a, that's actually the most, in theory, you're completely right because that is what the easiest next step would be because me and you can edit our calendar and we just need a tool to be able to read, Hey, this is movable. You could book over this to provide us with availability. So that's actually where we're thinking about it.

Martin Hauck (36:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or even like, ideally, like, and this is just me wishing upon a star, but you just drop the meeting on top of the hiring manager's calendar and the hiring manager can make the choice. Like, okay. Yes. Like I had that relationship with hiring managers in the past, not all of them, but some of them, they're like, listen, hiring is my top priority. Just book it in my calendar. And if I can't

if I can't make it happen, I'll move it and like obviously try to choose an empty spot in my calendar. But if you can't, but it's such like there's so there's I mean, calendars can feel like a private thing. Like there's some folks that are like, No, you can't see it. I'm not showing you anything. It's just busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. And it's just like placeholders for nonsense. And they're just making it look like they're busy. Or they're actually busy, whatever. But like you get you get the point. And that's cool. So what your

Denzel Mutoko (37:23)
Yeah.

Martin Hauck (37:38)
these are things that like above and beyond just your day to day placements, like these are the tools that you're using. These are the problems you're trying to solve for yourself. What would you say ⁓ is the most exciting or promising aspect of just like talent acquisition as a profession in the future? Like how do you how do you envision the future? Like what or how are you prepping for the future yourself?

Denzel Mutoko (38:03)
Great question. I'll tackle the prepping for the future first in the sense that I am looking to add value beyond just execution and beyond just recruitment when it comes to the advisory piece. ⁓ another thing to prep is I am looking to, because AI is here to stay, everybody's using AI people. Some companies are trying to fully move the whole process in terms of AI. don't know if you've heard that, that some

Martin Hauck (38:17)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (38:32)
Now some companies are using AI to do the initial screen. So if you were to apply and the AI is to assess your fit, they actually either call you an AI and they give you a bunch of questions you answer, or they automatically reach out to you. ⁓ So I'm trying to make myself as relevant as possible ⁓ in those situations. And let me tell you how. Number one, I am growing and building with AI in terms of all my process and everything I'm doing is...

AI is becoming more efficient. It's making me more efficient, which means I could do more in my day from that point of view. And then also, number two is becoming more of an advisor, more of a partner by being more data-driven. Like, for example, providing hiring managers with talent maps, providing hiring managers with market updates, market summaries, all of that. This just goes beyond what the day-to-day is. And then number three as well is

getting up to speed on other avenues of, I would say, as I mentioned to you, like the business partnering, how to grow that side of my expertise. ⁓ Because I think I've actually been seeing these roles come out as talent acquisition business partner. That these roles are coming out. then now that, yeah.

Martin Hauck (39:56)
tab.

Denzel Mutoko (39:58)
So now they're trying to combine those roles into one. like, you know, we're moving just from a peer, from a peer versus spotted perspective, a peer talent, those into one. So I'm seeing these early signs and then I'm just trying to make sure that I'm going to be best situated in order to not be like, oh shit, I should have done it then. I'm actioning it now and using it now and making myself as valuable as possible. Someone told me once is that I want...

Martin Hauck (40:04)
No.

Denzel Mutoko (40:26)
The way I operate is I want people to miss me so much when I'm out there. Like, oh Denzel knows this. Denzel's the one to do this. Denzel's like, I want them to miss me. I want my out of office to cause commotion. I want them know that's how I'm missing for the future, to be honest.

Martin Hauck (40:31)
Hmm

Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah.

When somebody sees you're out of office, they're like, ⁓ shit, we're screwed. When's he back? God, two weeks. ⁓ no.

Denzel Mutoko (40:49)
Yes. I want that.

Did you find out? I want them to be needing to, hey, can I get a number to message you on vacation? I'm going to say no, but I want that to be the case.

Martin Hauck (41:03)
I love how you've positioned that. No, I mean, you got to make yourself indispensable, but that's such a colorful way of like painting it. love it. ⁓ Any, any kind of final thoughts to leave the listeners at this point?

Denzel Mutoko (41:17)
Any final thoughts to leave the listeners? One thing about my success ⁓ and one thing ⁓ I'll give a success and also like a strength that's yet to be developed. ⁓ Number one is an interview tip. I'm giving away trade secrets here, but after every interview.

Martin Hauck (41:38)
We can cut

Denzel Mutoko (41:39)
So I trade one thing I always tell people that are interviewing, I don't know, people that are going to interviews is one question you should always ask hiring managers. And even if interviewing yourself is, is there anything from my experience or my responses today that you need any further clarification on or needing to enhance on anything? Because most of the time, if they say no, that means you're able to answer everything. But if you encourage them to be like, hmm,

Martin Hauck (41:59)
Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (42:06)
That's actually a very good question. You could have actually answered X, Y, Z, at least you leave every interview knowing that you've given your best and there is no doubt ⁓ from that perspective. That's number one. That's number one when it comes to interviewing and it comes through that. And number two as well is that

Martin Hauck (42:17)
That's a solid one.

Denzel Mutoko (42:26)
It's going to sound very fast, but there's more to life than work. ⁓ there's more to life than work. So you got to love what you do, but that doesn't mean that you forget to do what you love. And what that means is like, love to work, but there's also many things that I also do love outside of that, from that perspective. So you need to make sure to give...

Martin Hauck (42:31)
No.

Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (42:56)
to make space for that. Because once you make space for that, you'll be more motivated to do your work because you're getting, and you're not only gonna be hoping for your source of fulfillment to be from one avenue as well. So you're kind of broadening your eyes. And so that's just the way I've been living life and my, I would say, motto. And that's what I like to leave the listeners with.

Martin Hauck (43:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

No, no, it's excellent, excellent tips. mean, it's there's, there's an easy trap to kind of getting caught up in in what you do and making that big part of your identity. And because of the way things go, sometimes with business and the world and the economy, it's like, when you lose that thing, that is all you've biggest part of your identity, like there are so many people, I remember talking a lot of folks ⁓ when

when Shopify went through their restructures and like, when companies have in it's especially harder when companies have cultures that bring you in so much. You're like, even if you were if even if you had that boundary, I'm like, no, no, no, but like, no, the company's so good. And like, I like it. And, and then it becomes a part of you and you talk about it at barbecues and you care about it more than you expect. And then and then it's gone. And then then you kind of have to start from scratch. So that's

it's very alluring sometimes when if you're lucky enough to have a great company like that, then then you're you just have to have that boundary and it's good to did you did you find out that boundary sort of like the hard way or is it just more like you did?

Denzel Mutoko (44:35)
The hard way, the hard

way. And that's why it's very important. And it's also so hard to see earlier on. think it also comes with experience because it's actually very good what you say is because in life, you have to have different pillars that add to your source of happiness and different pillars that can able to satisfy you, to satisfy your needs and all of that. Because as you mentioned, if one of those pillars come out and if that's your sole pillar, it's going to devastate you.

Martin Hauck (44:53)
Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (45:05)
⁓ and it's as simple as like, it's as simple as like what me and my friends always say is that when people want marathons, sometimes they make the marathons a whole personality and all of that. But then once they get injured, you could see, my God, they have, they have like no more sense of purpose, even though there's so much more to life than that. So you've got to make sure that there's different kinds of avenues, ⁓ to make you, the access to happiness. the anti-crash I learned the hard way twice is once I've been affected with a restructuring with a company that.

Martin Hauck (45:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (45:35)
was fantastic and all of that, it is what it is. The name of the game is it was a great company, but the whole people team was affected. But the one that really hurt me the most was my first time tearing my Achilles and not being able to play soccer. ⁓ That was a big one because I had everything I loved and knew was football, soccer, and it was taken away from me in a matter of seconds. And I was like, holy shit, what am I going like, my life is done. Like, what am I going to do now? I'm going to become

Martin Hauck (45:49)
you

Yeah.

Denzel Mutoko (46:04)
fat, I'm going to become unfit. so many things went into my head is like that I was like, great, then you should take a step back and realize that that's how I got into different avenues, spin, other stuff as well. then I as I just kind of diversified from that perspective into different pillars that kind of add to your satisfaction.

Martin Hauck (46:23)
No, no, it's very I appreciate you sharing that. Like it's it's absolutely. Yeah, oftentimes, most times people kind of have to learn, learn the hard way. And I guess, yeah, no, I one more one last quick question. What would you say was the thing that helped you get out of that? Like when you tore your Achilles and you were like, this is my life. How did you get out of that funk? And how did you be like, cool, I got to find new things and, and whatnot.

Denzel Mutoko (46:50)
It was,

it was, I would say, I mean, it's easier said than done because it was for me, it was a mindset, it was a mindset and a decision that I made that I option A is feeling sorry for myself and thinking, start to think of what if I didn't, if what, what if I train better? What if I, what if I stretched or what if I didn't play football that day and changing that into, okay, now

What is next? Now thinking about starting to get away from the fear of trying something new and being okay with failing. It's changing that mindset because in life, well, my philosophy is, know, success is 99 % failure. You only need to succeed once in order for it to have that big impact. So you got to be okay and ready to fail.

Martin Hauck (47:22)
Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (47:48)
Having that shift in the mindset being it's okay to fail and try something new is actually what got me out of my comfort zone to even try a spin class, which actually got me out of a comfort zone to actually try X, Z. And that was the mindset shift that got me through my first Achilles' And through my second one, I had the same mindset, but yeah, that's what it was.

Martin Hauck (48:13)
Amazing. No, awesome. Awesome advice. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

Denzel Mutoko (48:18)
Appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me.

Martin Hauck (48:21)
Awesome. Awesome. I feel like we're gonna have to talk again, maybe bring you on again. And we can dive into some of the stuff you're you're talking about in terms of mindsets. I feel that's a whole other episode there.

Denzel Mutoko (48:30)
Also, it's

a whole other thing. honestly, the more I've been instructing, the more I've been into that space. I've been studying it a lot more and also trying to practice what I preach. And it's actually been a great, I would say, help, both from professional and a personal perspective. And it's also made me into a better ⁓ employee today in the way that I receive feedback and the way I get feedback and all of that, because it's a mindset that being

Martin Hauck (48:40)
Hmm.

Denzel Mutoko (48:59)
I could talk for days because I get like, there's also one about being a disagreeable giver that I'm also practicing. So yes, I could actually go on for days in terms of like that side of the house. But yes, it's a mindset that I did, but I'm loving it. that's what I'm hoping to get at every day. like, honestly, maybe even one day even become like a coach to that extent. Cause that's what I'm trying to, I guess that's like my peak interest right now when it comes to that. Because Men's House is big and...

Martin Hauck (49:01)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Nice.

Denzel Mutoko (49:29)
It's not talked about enough and mindsets like that.

Martin Hauck (49:32)
Yeah, no, it's it's very true. No. And ⁓ yeah, well, here's here's to that you delightful guest to chat with. Thank you so much for your time. And who knows we'll have you on again in the future when when you when you're a coach.

Denzel Mutoko (49:47)
Sounds good, I love that. All right then, pleasure, have a good weekend. Bye for now.

Martin Hauck (49:49)
Awesome. Cheers.

You too.