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Brand to Scale is a podcast where we talk to business leaders and industry influencers about how they built their brands. Each episode dives into real stories about starting up, growing through challenges, and what success looks like behind the scenes. It's an honest look at the people and ideas driving business forward.
[00:00:00]
Paul: I personally think running a business is 90% pain and 10% elation that you don't get from another occupation.
Mm. So it's just so much, so much trauma and effort, um, that people don't see or appreciate.
Jess: Welcome to this episode of Brand to Scale, the podcast where I sit down with founders and business leaders to uncover the real, gritty, truthful stories behind building a business. I'm Jess, your host, and today I'm joined by someone who spent almost three decades in the agency world, helping businesses grow while navigating all the highs, lows, and lessons that come with entrepreneurship.
You don't look old enough to have spent three decades in agency life. I'm just gonna lead with that. Um, but I'm really excited about this one 'cause you and I have been in the, the same industry for a while, so we, we know what it's like to, to, um, yeah, navigate all of the, the challenges that come with that.
But welcome, Paul. So nice to have you here. Um, tell us a little bit about, um, you, your journey so far, and what you're up to these days. [00:01:00]
Paul: Yeah, so I, uh, I've been, um, a self-employed sort of marketeer since 1996, and, uh, which is three, three decades, which is absolutely crazy. Um, I've ha- owned, uh, graphic design businesses, a printing company, software business, a web agency, and a digital marketing agency.
So kind of a real mix of different businesses, but all very linked to the same sector and sort of output, really.
Jess: Wow. So I am gonna lean on the sort of three decades thing again, because you generally don't. So you must have started quite early on, right?
Paul: I think it was literally a week after, back in the day, you got your National Insurance card at home in the post, the little blue with a yellow stripe thing on it.
And then I'd left school, uh, a- and all my friends had all spoken about getting jobs at McDonald's or, or supermarkets, and of course I did that as well, but at the same time, I, I begged my dad, "How do I set, set up a company?" And, um, I started a graphic design business in June 1996, which is, uh, 30 years ago, uh, this month, and, um, started doing some freelance work whilst doing what everyone else does as students.
And, and I've never really had a full-time job since. It's always been sort of, um, that sort of stuff.
Jess: Ah, they're overrated anyway, aren't they, full-time jobs, normal jobs, as you put [00:02:00] them?
Paul: Exactly.
Jess: Where did that come from then? Did, were your parents self-employed? Did you always wanna run a business? Like, where did that need come from?
Paul: No, in weird- weirdly, the opposite. My dad had a really good job in the printing sector, so I'd always been, uh, in and around, like, uh, you know, the design industry. So I'd go in on a Saturday with my dad and muck around on the Apple Macs in the '90s, you know, and I really got a passion for how cool you could create stuff using something that, you know, you didn't have that in the imagination in your early sort of, like, teens.
Mm-hmm. And it was amazing to sort of play around with those computers and, and things like that when they were at really early stages, the old Mac, the old Macs and things like that. Um, and my dad didn't really have ambition to go further than the job he had, and I sort of perhaps got the ambition from the fact that he could've, i- in my opinion, as a teenager, could've gone really far with his career and had his own business.
But he can't ... Kind of like the steady Eddie route. We always talk about that in the family, that, um, he said it was, uh, his fault by being a bit slow in his career that, uh, gave me too much ambition.
Jess: Oh, wow. But that, that's, um, that's quite a leap though, isn't it? Like, normally you talk to people and they've, they've had some sort of role model that, that's been there and done that.
So when, when it came to starting a business, like, what, what did that mean for you at that time? Did that mean just, like, you know, [00:03:00] freedom, not being told what to do? Like, what, what was the goal?
Paul: I think it was things like asking my dad, like, "I want to do some graphic design for, for people that we've met through family and friends, and how do I do it?
And I don't really wanna work for somebody else and do it. Um, I don't want a job at your place, Dad, you know, so can I, how do I set it up?" So we set up a company when I was 16, and I, I, I've sort of been doing freelance work all the way through my education till I was sort of, like, 18, 19, and, and then went full-time after education into being a graphic designer, um, which was- Wow
deep in, you know? So
Jess: you never did really have a proper job?
Paul: No. I've had lots of part-time job like everyone's had, you know, like, all the stuff to pay the bills or pay for the social life where you, when you can't stay paying with sometimes, things like that, you know. But, um- Yeah ... you know, a part-time job.
Jess: Was it, um, I don't wanna use the word easy 'cause I can't imagine it was, but was it smooth running from the get-go?
Paul: Yeah, I think it depends if you, you know, it depends what your outlook is. If you don't have any overheads when you're a teenager living at home with your parents, um, my friends were all getting credit cards and debt to get through their education, and I was sort of trying to earn money t- and not get in debt, so it was kind of the flip of it.
It was just a mindset change.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's strange now, like, talking to young people who are starting businesses. They're, they're kind of [00:04:00] surrounded now, aren't they, by social media, by all the, the entrepreneur, you know, the podcasts and the, the advice on how to build a business in 90 days with £50 in your pocket, all of that stuff.
But you didn't have that then in the '90s. So did you have any sort of, um, were you setting any goals? Did you have any role models, anything like that? No,
Paul: not really. Or just day-to-day? Don't think at that age, no. And I think the weird thing is sometimes, like, the appetite for risk, I think, is the, is the thing that it w- you know, you know, you know, just as well I do just how hard and painful it is running your own company and growing it and all the things that come with it.
Um, and I've got friends that have only just recently in their 40s started businesses, and two of them I used to work with, and, um, they've, they've said that working with me and seeing how stressed I was for 10 years was the reason they didn't start their own business until recently.
Jess: Wow.
Paul: My son left school on Monday, so he's just finished his GCSEs.
Um, and I joked with him about, "What business are you gonna start?" He said, "No chance. I see how much you work. I see how stressed you are." So, you know, trauma, trauma and risk I think go hand-in-hand in what, what people experience.
Jess: Yeah. I think you do have to be a, well, a fairly resilient person I, I think, don't you, to, to have been in it for, for that long, definitely.
Um, so what, what was the, the next step after that? You were [00:05:00] doing some, some freelance design. I was there as well back in the day, um, growing that freelance basis. At what point were you like, "This is probably a legit business and I'm gonna try and grow it"?
Paul: Well, I, I took a contract sort of working part-time in a printing company in London.
Um, so, you know, it, it was a good contract. I had regular work, you know. It wasn't full time, but it was sort of regular, regular work. Did that for a few years whilst looking after my own clients. And then I started realizing that a lot of the clients I was working with on my freelance side were spending a lot of money on print back in the day, so it's a bit like a freelancer now, uh, perhaps was spending a lot of money on web or digital marketing or things that they would use today.
Um, and I thought, "Do you know what? Maybe I should start a printing company." And I think it was the early 2000s that I started to work on a business plan for forming my own print company. But it's a hell of a leap to go from being a freelancer just about paying your bills to, um, taking out hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt to get leased, leased buildings, equipment, hiring staff.
And obviously I needed an investor, so I, um, approached a couple of my clients and got into conversations with them and, and, um, one s- story I love telling people is about how always be- give people your time. [00:06:00] In this place I was working freelance, um, in this printers, there was a guy that came in that was quite scruffy.
No one knew anything about him. Um, and he would come in for things like faxes and photocopies in the print company, and the, the odd occasion I'd go and speak to him, and he's a really nice guy. We went out for a coffee once, and everyone thought he was just a normal sort of normal guy. Um, and one day he came in in a three-piece suit looking like a billionaire, you know.
And we went for a coffee that afternoon, and he told me that he owns a £140 million pharmacy company. Oh, shoot. And when I told him I wanted to start my business, um, he offered to invest and he, he ended up investing a six-figure amount of money in my print company to help me get off the ground in the early 2000s.
Off the back of just being a, a nice guy, um, speaking to someone as a human being and showing empathy, um, he showed it back and, and backed me in my early 20s to start our company, which was amazing.
Jess: That's... Yeah, talk about being in the right place at the right time with the right person.
Paul: Definitely. It would fast-track the journey, that's for sure.
Um, I think- Yeah ... I still would've done it, but, you know, starting a company with all those overheads I've just mentioned is not easy when you don't have money.
Jess: Yeah. That's, um, like zero to 100 miles an hour though, isn't it? Like, you, you gone from freelance design and, you know, the [00:07:00] natural step would be, "Oh, a few more clients.
Maybe I'll like, you know, build some retainers, then I'll start growing that steadily." But you just went from that to full-scale investment premises and all of the stuff that that comes with, all of that stress. So what, what, uh, what did that feel like?
Paul: Uh, I, I wasn't scared at the time. I think what ha- what happened in the first, uh, few months afterwards was horrendous.
So, um, we, we got a premises. I got all the equipment. That took months. We didn't trade for months. Um, at, in the second week that we'd opened the building, I had three staff. Um, the building completely flooded. So we were an old MOT center, so we were, you know, a few feet under the ground of, uh, street level, and the, the area had flooded, and the whole building had flooded.
I obviously had insurance, but that took months. So we didn't trade for nearly 11 months because of the flood. Oh. Um, at the end, at the end of that, um, my investor, the, the really nice guy, his business went into administration. Um, and I'd gone from having some of his money and all of his custom, 'cause they were my only customer, to having no customers, and his administrator's asking for the money back.
Um, and I had three staff I'm looking at, and I was just honest and said, "Look, guys, we've got printing machines that are now not underwater. We've got paper. We've got our [00:08:00] brand. Um, I'm not a salesman. Um, we're not salesmen, but we're all gonna be out of a job, and I'm gonna have personally guaranteed debt for many years, for the rest of my life probably.
Let's go and speak to the local businesses." And we all became salesmen and went out with flyers and, uh, networked aggressively, and in our first year trading we, we hit about 800 grand in revenue, um, from people we'd never met- 12 months ago, and, uh, it was absolutely amazing to... If you can't get through that resilience, you know, that sort of pain and that discomfort, um-
Jess: Yeah
Paul: you can be a businessman for life, I think, you know? Um-
Jess: Wow. You had to get really scrappy really fast then to pull that, pull that through. That's, um, yeah, that's a hell of a start, isn't it, as a, as a business owner. Is there anything that you, um, wish you'd done differently going back to that time? Like, maybe looked at contracts a bit closer or like anything like that?
I
Paul: think personal guarantees in your 20s when you don't have any assets is probably a bad idea. Um- Mm ... because even if I wanted to walk away, I couldn't have, I couldn't have done. Um, but luckily I think that it created that desperation, that scrappiness, um, that resilience. And, uh- Mm ... I think resilience is such an important factor.
You know, you know this from running businesses yourself, Jess. Like, it's, if you don't have resilience, you've gotta have skills to run a business. You, you often have one skill and then you, [00:09:00] you start a business and you have to learn everything else, all the other 40 things that keep you running, you know, as a business.
Jess: Yeah.
Paul: But if you don't have resilience, you've got no chance. Um-
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right, and it's, it's really quite sad sometimes when you look back at things, isn't it? Like how much you've had to, like, schedule in feeling sad for a little bit. 'Cause you've only got a little short amount of time to, to feel that, and then you've gotta get back on the horse and, and get back out there with your flyers, knocking on doors to, to make it work.
Paul: Whatever is needed, yeah, yeah.
Jess: Yeah. Wow, what a story. Is there anything that, you know, what else did you have to learn in that journey? So you weren't a salesperson, you had to learn to be one. Mm. Were there any other key skills that came out of that that you probably wouldn't have had to learn if everything had gone so smoothly?
Paul: Uh, I don't know. I think, um- I, I was perhaps a bit stubborn with asking other people for advice. I still am probably. So business coaches, I fully appreciate their, their place in the market, but I, I, I find it challenging to, to, to work with that env- within that environment. Mm-hmm. But I think at the time I was obviously asking everyone I knew for help, um, because I was, I was in such a hole.
Um, hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt, didn't have any assets, and [00:10:00] had to get the business out of the hole it was in. What, what was great was a- about a year later, the company that had invested in me came back to the table and we, we got support, we took it to the next level. Um, but that first year was absolutely horrendous.
Um, and you learn a lot about yourself.
Jess: Yeah. Was there any point where you thought, "Oh, screw this. Like this is not what I thought it was gonna be. I'm gonna go off and do something else, go and work in the, the printer factory with my dad"?
Paul: Yeah, definitely. I should've done, to be fair, maybe. But I don't know, there was something about, like, I don't know, I had a bit of a mission about the industry as well.
I felt like that whole sector didn't have any, any modern outlook on where the industry was going with communication. And obviously the print industry isn't, isn't a form of communication anymore at all, apart from when you need stuff. But back then, it was still a primary channel of marketing in the, in the, uh, early 2000s, 20 odd, 20 odd years ago.
Um, and we... What I always use as an analogy is, uh, it felt to me like the whole industry was on a beach, and they're all up to their waist in the sand, and the market was saying, "Come over here," and, "Come over here," and no- everyone's having to unbury themselves and change their processes and look at everything differently.
And I was just this young kid with all these problems standing on the [00:11:00] surface going, "Well, the client wants me to go there, I'm gonna go there." Mm-hmm. So we, we w- we built Website Print Systems it's called, before Moonpig. So we built websites where you could customize things online before Moonpig ever came to the market or existed.
And we did that because we were agile, you know? And I think that's an opportunity when you're new to kind of-
Jess: Mm ...
Paul: look at things and go, "I'll do it different. I'm gonna do this differently."
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, I think you do have to look at things and think, "How can I innovate?" And I think that's, that's really key, uh, I think, in these days, especially with all the technology around and, you know, the market, the competitors that are just flooding in.
You have to be agile and be able to innovate fast, don't you, to, to move with things? Yeah.
Paul: Definitely.
Jess: What was the, um... You know, how, how did that business end? Did you sell it for loads of money? What was next? What happened?
Paul: In the end, uh, we had, we funnily enough had a, an o- offer from, um, three, uh, very big printing companies to buy the company.
One of them was Moonpig, and, um, they wanted to sort of buy us because we were ahead of them in technology. Um, and they were spending millions on TV advertising and things like that, but we were building better websites than they had, and they'd spent hundreds of thousands on theirs. [00:12:00] So we, they wanted to buy our resource.
Um, and in the end, uh, my investor, sort of the pharmacy company, wanted me to be more in their business as a marketeer leading their growth. Um, so we ended up becoming sort of part of our investor's company really, and it sort of slowed down in terms of the external services. Mm-hmm. Which wasn't really the end I wanted, um, I will be, I will be honest.
Um, so in a way, I see that as a business failure because it, it wasn't the vision I had for the outcome. But- Yeah ... look, who, who... You know, how many people start a business wanting to sell it and actually achieve it? Not many, so.
Jess: No, not many. No, not. Did, did that transition, um, was that a bit of a struggle for you 'cause you'd, you'd done that and, and built that to where it was, and then you kind of had to let go and go do something else?
Paul: What was really hard was the, the staff. So, really loyal people that had been there since those days of, "What the hell are we doing? How are we paying the bills tomorrow?" through to the success. You know, we became about a £3 million business and, and, and we had dozens of staff. And, and the early guys, the, the guys who'd been faithful since the beginning, obviously once they saw that business change and us essentially becoming a department of our investors, it's, um, the appetite for the mission we were on evaporated.
So it's really hard to see a lot of the team moving on. And it was right for their careers 'cause-
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: some would go, uh, 'cause they weren't on board [00:13:00] with the journey. Yeah. Um, but that was horrendous, seeing your colleagues evaporate, you know.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely tou- tough when you get attached to people, isn't it, that have helped you build and grow something.
Yeah, know all about that. Yeah. Is there, um... So you went in-house essentially at that point? Um, you sound like you don't sit still for very long. So- No ... how, how long were you doing that before you were like, "No, I'm gonna build something else now?"
Paul: Well, I had about a y- year and a half helping them as, uh, you know, running the, the print side but also helping their sort of, uh, international group of, uh, pharmacy and, uh, all sorts of businesses.
There are about 17 companies in the group, 150 odd million turn of a business, and I, I l- I led up some of the international expansion, moving into European countries, and I learned a lot about that sort of thing. So it's the nearest I've had to a job was that kind of, uh, doing something with a board above me.
You know, that was quite interesting. Yeah. But I was setting up things in the side, at the side, um, outside of that because I, I couldn't sit still, you know. Um, a- at that time, I'd come up with an idea for the printing industry for some software that, uh, would automate the entire workflow from a web order through to the couriered box going out.
Um, and could only get to the point of an idea, and I ended up building a relationship [00:14:00] with a software house in Germany. Um, and they, they went and built my idea, and they went and built the, the platform. Um, and they ended up selling that business for multiple millions to Heidelberg, one of the biggest companies in the industry.
Um, I- Oh ... I was, I was involved about that much, shall we say.
Jess: Oh, no.
Paul: But, um, I couldn't sit still even whilst having that sort of contract.
Jess: Yeah. So what was... I mean, that, that's gotta feel brutal, right? You had this idea and somebody else has cap- capitalized on that. Again, massive learning, I ex- expect there in terms of, yeah, contracts- Yeah
who you get into bed with.
Paul: Doing things on trust is, uh, is difficult. Obviously, I'd spend many years, uh, call it a side hustle, but many years. Uh, they'd spent hundreds of thousand pounds building it, so it's their baby. But- Mm-hmm ... I always had the agreement I was the UK guy, they were the European team. And when a big, you know, multi-billion pound company came in and, and bought them, I thought I would've had a better exit, but I didn't.
Um...
Jess: Oh, ouch. Ouch So what, what happened next, Paul? 'Cause like this is, um, you've, you've been doing a lot of things. So what was the next bright idea, and did that come off any better?
Paul: It did, it did 'cause I enjoyed it. Um, it depends what you want out of life, right? If it's all about money, then [00:15:00] yeah, I failed just in these two stories, right?
The two, two times where I could have as- had an exceptional amount of money to change my life, but, you know, that wasn't really- Yeah ... what it was about. The thing I did next for a few years was, um, going into printing businesses again as kind of a creative guy and a sales trainer, um, training, um, salesmen on not selling print, selling more than that.
You know, kind of a, you know, selling, uh, not selling the drill because they sell print, don't sell print. Selling the, the, the fact that your customer wants a hole in the wall, right? So how do we help you with that? And that was really fun for a few years. Um, and then I thought, "I can't just spend my hours.
My amaz- hours are limited. I wanna start a company again." And I started an agency about two, it's about two years past all these events. Mm-hmm. Started an agency again. It was primarily building websites for printers, um, because it was a sector I knew and I had a good reputation in that sector. Um, a bit like you with this podcast, I, I thought rather than having, um, just a traditional marketing strategy, we, we create an event for the printing sector where we had all the layer, layers of the industry, the press, the manufacturers, the printers, the designers, the, the buyers, that we ran a net- Mm
networking event in St. Paul's in London every month. Had about 150 people a month attend our events, and that was our [00:16:00] funnel for our marketing for the agency because we were thought leaders- Nice. Yeah ... rather than, "Do you want a website?" You know, it was ch- being a position in the market was better than selling
Jess: and-
Paul: And that grew to a, a big size.
Jess: That's really, um, important, I think, what you just said there. 'Cause I think lots of people are, um, struggling with sales marting at the moment because of the fact that there's just so much noise out there. And actually going back to being in the room with the right people, and getting the people in the room so you can have an actual human conversation with people, um, is just such a great way, isn't it, to, to build relationships.
And just like how that investor happened at the beginning, talking to people, getting to know people- Mm-hmm ... um, that's where you win really great business, isn't it? So yeah, I think more of that needs to happen now.
Paul: Everyone's worth your time, in my opinion, you know? I still go to small business networking events, and they may not be my target audience, but- Mm-hmm
you never walk into a networking event room and your target customer's in that room. Really rare. Like, a thousands of one chance, billions of one chance.
Jess: [00:17:00] Yeah.
Paul: But v- they may know someone, that they may like you, and they may recommend you, and I think that's why I still go to every networking event I can, because, um, whatever I'm doing now, it's, it's still good to build relationships.
Jess: Yeah, it is. People buy from people that they know, like, and trust is the saying, isn't it? And I think it's just, it's so true. And like you said, like, you've, you've been in rooms and you meet people, and you think, "Oh, yeah," you know, you're fairly... Well, you judge people by, by their covers, don't you, sometimes?
And then you turn round, and they're, like, you know, a multimillion pound business owner who's built something. And you're like, "Shit," you know? That's, um, that's a hell of a conversation to have, and there's a lot you can learn from these people as well, not just think about the selling angle. Um, yeah, definitely.
That's, um, that's really- Really key, and you were kind of like at the forefront of that, I think, 'cause that, that wasn't happening a lot then, and then definitely dropped off then, didn't it, in 2020s?
Paul: Yes. Big time. Big time. Um, but yeah, look, meeting people in person and give it... I think finding out what they do and giving referrals is a more authentic way to gain trust than, um, just pitching yourself, you know?
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because you are in marketing- Mm ... [00:18:00] so you know, that you've- you know more than most, like, there, there are other ways that you need to be attracting your audience. So do you think that that's gonna be, you know, really important for businesses going forward, is, is that being in the room more than digital marketing or alongside?
Like, how do you think that's gonna change?
Paul: I still think it's the most effective channel, um, uh, uh, is, is events and, and meeting people. I looked at the agency's numbers, uh, last year, and over 60% of our revenue for three years in a row has come from free exhibitions that we do, not from all the other things we spend money on.
Um, and about another 25% came from personal branding, like just, you know, not being a horrible person, do- producing content that's helping people- Yeah ... and getting referrals. Um, and there's only a few percent of our revenue that had come from things we're spending all our money on. Um-
Jess: Yeah ... SMEs
Paul: need to know that, that, that, that we're in this super AI automated age where everything feels less meaningful.
Jess: Mm.
Paul: Uh, I, I saw a talk years ago that's really stuck with me, about 20 years ago, I think. It was Rory Sutherland, um, who's just absolutely amazing, and he spoke at a print conference, again, my old in- industry, and he talked about, um... He walked out on the stage at this conference and said, "You don't realize all of you are missing the point.
Um, everything you do is the most meaningful channel of marketing, even though it's the [00:19:00] least valued today." And that has always stuck with me because if you send something some- someone, like direct mail or a thank you welcome pack or whatever it may be, something that's rigged It, you never forget that.
Um- Yeah ... whereas you get a DM on LinkedIn, which you get 200 of a day, it's very hard to remember that person. It is. Unless they've got something exceptional, you know?
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm t- I'm totally with you on that. And I think there's, you know, there's lots of, with the work that we're doing now, a lot of it is around educating founders and business leaders around, like, moving away from this sort of pitch mentality.
'Cause there's quite a lot of, "Well, if we pay to go to this networking event, or if we go here, what room are we gonna be pitching in? We need to pull a presentation deck together." And we're going, "No, no. That, that's not what this is about anymore." You go, you make friends, you build relationships. Um, and then you offer, you know, support and advice for nothing, you know?
You, you offer that, that help and advice, um, as a human being. And then when they do need your service at some point, who are they gonna go to? You know, the person who, who helped them, and they had a [00:20:00] nice conversation with. Um, this sort of pitching, pitching world, I think is, is, um, leaving us, thank God, I feel.
Paul: Yeah. There's always a- aspects, you know, people procure in a certain way. They need you to tender or pitch to them. But I, I'd much rather get work based upon, um, the... My favorite type of inquiries are two, two favorite type inquiries are, one where someone's seen your work on someone else's website, such as w- whereas they see the footer of the website and say, "I love that work you've done.
We're a really similar type of business. Will, will you work with us?" I mean, what a great question.
Jess: Yeah.
Paul: Worst type of message I ever get on LinkedIn or, or TikTok is things like, um, you know, "I've been following you for a while." And I'm ready to buy now. My boss has given me a budget for the thing that you do."
And you're like, "Well, great. What's the budget?" It's not about money, it's about you, you've made an emotional connection before I've even had to say what we do. Um-
Jess: Yeah. And they're, they're already warm then. They already know they wanna work with you, and then it's just about, yeah, being able to deliver, isn't it?
Yeah, you're absolutely right there. Absolutely. So what, what happened then? You, you started thinking about this, this agency model you're working with, um, primarily printing. How did [00:21:00] that evolve then? Because I'm ... By this point, with all the experiences you've had, I'm assuming you had, you know, a bit of drive, bit of ambition.
Like, this is gonna go somewhere. I've got plans. So what was going through your head at that point?
Paul: Well, I, I'm never gonna blame a business partner, but I think sometimes, you know, you have the wrong people you work with. So I had th- this a- this first agency that was for the printing industry. The individual that, um, I was in business with had, uh, an awful lot of personal challenges, and the business's financial situation declined to a point of, you know, no recovery.
So I actually had to close that business. Um-
Jess: Oh, no ...
Paul: lost a lot of money. He lost a lot of money. He was in a really bad state, and it was very hard to be friends with someone that was going through stuff that was causing the demise of your, your joint business. And you can't blame them. I was very empathetic, but I had to close that business, and that was a business failure, essentially.
Our first, first agency.
Jess: Mm.
Paul: Um, I carried on. I started a new business, and, uh, it didn't focus solely on the printing industry. I'd worked with more SMEs and general businesses. And we became solely a website design business, um, evolving into full service website performance, so SEO, digital marketing, and everything.
And, uh- Mm ... and that business evolved over the, [00:22:00] over the years. Um, that, that business, I met a gentleman called Mark Wright, who won the T- the, The Apprentice TV show, uh, in the, sort of about 2015, I think he won it. Um, 'cause I do a, do a little bit with- within that sort of space within, uh, I know Lord Sugar and a few people like that, that we've been really fortunate to do a lot of work with some of The Apprentice winners.
Um, and Mark, uh, Mark came into the business with me, and he owned a business that was all SEO. Really nominally good digital marketing company. Um, and that was the second business partner that didn't work because his time was extraordinarily poor given he'd just won this amazing TV show, had millions of followers.
And-
Jess: Oh, wow ...
Paul: we, we were, we were not his priority, and that's fine. That's completely something you'd understand. And what a great guy he is. Um, he went off to, you know, sell his business, and him and Lord Sugar had a very nice exit. Um, he was another kind of business partner failure in my sense. So I didn't get the relationship right.
Jess: Mm.
Paul: Um, and that was very hard
Jess: What's that taught you then about who you go into business with? Like, what lessons have you learned from all of that?
Paul: Uh, it makes you doubt yourself. You think is it, is it me or is it, is it that I haven't found the right partner yet? And I think there's a bit of both, right?
You know- Mm ... you know, your, your, your partner's your husband and, you know, you couldn't imagine the level of empathy and trust that [00:23:00] you two have got, right? I mean, that's
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: incredible. Um-
Jess: Well, also the ability to argue a lot because the all boundaries are down, so you know, pros and cons.
Paul: Yeah, I can see that.
But e- essentially, quite often the people you go into business with can be essentially strangers. You don't know them that well, so- Yeah ... you know, who would've known that one business partner had personal problems that I completely empathize with and that caused a business failure for us. Mm. Um, another business partner was too busy to be involved.
Um, and those things happen, you know? Um, but it was, uh, another road in... It was another road hump I got over. Um-
Jess: Yeah. How were you feeling at that point? 'Cause like I, I'm just trying to put myself in, in your shoes, and maybe I'm not as resilient as you, I don't know. But I was just thinking, Jesus, by that point I'd be like, "Oh my God," like what, what...
why isn't this working? Like feeling probably quite down, I would've been at that point. But like was it just a cool close one chapter, start again? Like was there anything that you were, you know, doubting about yourself, your skills? Like h- how was that? Yeah.
Paul: Big time. Big time. I remember even emailing the, the first business partner and saying, I remember, I'll never forget the [00:24:00] email, saying, "I actually don't think I should be the CEO of the business.
I think, I think you should be." And the f- it was just before he was gonna have his personal problems. Um, and he didn't want to be. He wanted to be like a sales guy, operations guy. But I was looking at all the trying to be self-aware and going, "Well, actually, I started X amount of years ago as a designer, didn't know anything about business, had all those pressures and those problems.
Built a successful multi-million pound business and then had a corporate occupation." So I have learned things along the way, but at that time I was really doubting that I was able to... I had all the skill sets needed to run a successful creative agency. Um-
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: would I be better back on the tools? And I think we all go through that, that sort of feeling, you know, of-
Jess: Yeah
Paul: you know, should I go back to what my core skills are, you know?
Jess: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I've, I've definitely been there as well as like maybe I should be better behind the curtain again and, you know, just, just do the work, you know, and not have to deal with the clients and the people and all the rest of it. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. What, what did you do to pull yourself out of that then? Like did you, did you have to do any... I know you said about, um, business coaches and things before, and you, that's not really your bag, but w- what did you do in terms of personal development to be able to bring [00:25:00] yourself out of that?
'Cause I'm not, I'm not trying to dig, dig too hard into this, but that there's quite a lot that you went through, you know? And not everybody would be able to sort of, you know, pull themselves out of that.
Paul: Yeah. I think, uh, one thing I learned upon was brilliant partnerships. So working with people that you're not in business with, but they're arm's length business partners, so other agencies, other, other people in the sector, uh, that you're in or whatever, and, and trying to be a sponge and learn everything you can from them.
I mean, you know, there's some of the people I've spent time with that are unbelievable. I mean, I always joke that I've, um, had conversations with, uh, uh, three billionaires that, uh, one, one was on, on a call and two were in person, and within a couple of minutes of chitter-chatting and them probably thinking, "This kid's gonna pi- pitch to me," or, "This lad's gonna pitch to me again," like everybody does in their whole careers.
Two out of three of them asked me the same question, and the third person actually asked it in a different way, and I think that says a lot about these people and what you can learn from them. Two of them asked me, "What's your biggest failure and what did you learn from it?"
Jess: Mm.
Paul: What a question. Mm. Not many people ask you that.
If you go business networking, who asks those types of questions? But-
Jess: No ...
Paul: these two out of the three individuals wanting to know what character you've [00:26:00] got before they perhaps went and work with my team, or, "I can't work with you, but someone in my organization might be willing to listen to you. Here's their card," or something, you know?
Jess: Yeah.
Paul: And he wanted to see it, feel you out. I think you can learn from those people. Um-
Jess: Yeah. Abso- I mean, that, that's, that is a great question, isn't it? 'Cause I think it goes kind of back to, and we'll get onto, like, hiring a team and stuff in a bit, but when you come back to being able to teach skills but you can't really teach, like, personality, resilience, you know, grit, determination or all that stuff, that has to be embedded in you somewhere, isn't it?
So that's probably where those questions come from, isn't it? To try and figure out, yeah, who you are and how, how you're gonna approach, yeah, problems and situations.
Paul: Definitely. Definitely.
Jess: Yeah, tough times. So everything was, you know, going well at this point. You were wo- working with new businesses. Well, were you?
What happened after that second business partner? Do you re- rebuild again, or was it-
Paul: Yeah, we did. We had to, uh, had to, um, continue with a, with a different brand. That's where we, we, um, uh, came up with... W- actually, Making Websites Better was our strap line for the, the former agency, um, because it was kind of [00:27:00] what our mantra was, you know?
Jess: Yeah.
Paul: We built our brand strategy around our, our four pillars of our brand, our brand values, which were passion, love what we do, smart thinking, um, we're always trying to keep ahead, empathy. I think, you know, when you're working with medium-sized, small someone's business, you've gotta have a lot of empathy and understand a business owner's perspective when you're talking about delivering things and how that re- what resource is required.
And the last one I think is really important was telling the truth, and it's n- that's not honesty. Honesty is, "Got caught out, I was honest. Didn't deliver, I was honest." Telling the truth was, for us as a culture, was if we don't think we can get a result, let's just be hon- let's tell them now, um-
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: even if it costs us the contracts, the projects.
Um- Mm ... I think those core values, um, I took from the former business, and we put it all into our name and, uh, and our brand strategy. So it was quite nice to use our brand strategy from the other agency to be the entire business model for the new agency.
Jess: Wow. Yeah, so all, all of that learning you took from the other experiences and, you know, being really aligned on what those values are, how important do you think, you know, defining your, your core values as a business is?
Paul: Critical. Um, even if you're a one-man band, because it's, it's, it's how you make decisions [00:28:00] about what you do, you know? Marketing is how do you, how do you get in the same room as your ideal client, and brand is how do you get people to trust you, right? In various different ways of saying it.
Jess: Mm.
Paul: If you don't know why you're trying to get in the room, and if you don't know how you're trying to gain trust and the reason someone should trust you, how can you do those two elements, marketing and branding, you know?
Jess: Yeah, absolutely. And you have to be aligned on that, 'cause that's what you're trying to teach your, your bus- businesses that you're working with, aren't you? So you've got to be practicing what you preach.
Paul: Exactly. It's like-
Jess: Yeah ... critical. So tell me a bit about the journey for... of that business then, um, hiring team, like growing that, um, and the challenges you went through there, I imagine.
Paul: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Uh, I think it was just after COVID. Uh, one of my personal friends, um, he's this very, very successful businessman. Um, he has a huge property portfolio, lots of companies. He's a really successful guy. He's my age, and he's, he's sickeningly successful. Um, I had a heart-to-heart with him, um, after the situation with the apprentice guy and not being able to stick around, and he said, "Uh, you've got a really good business, Paul, but you're not a good businessman."
Um, and I thought, "Fair play. You know, I, I... You've got to be, try and be self-aware." Um, he goes, "You're not good with finances. You're not good with HR. You're [00:29:00] too soft with the staff, you know. You'll pay people too much, and you'll, you won't discipline them and things like that." All things he'd seen as a friend, uh, of my business.
Mm. And he said, "Look, I'll, I'll buy in." And, and he invested in the business, um, and sort of helped me sharpen up a few things because I think, um, you know, there's just, you know, you love your team, don't you, when you run an agency. You know, they're, they're an extended part of your family when people have been working with you for years.
Um- Mm ... it doesn't matter about hierarchy. It is trust, and it's who you like working with. So I was always too nice, and my wife often says is, "My gravestone's gonna say, 'Here lies Paul Warren. He made everyone else rich.'" Um-
Jess: Oh, no.
Paul: If money grew on trees, you know.
Jess: Oh, no. Well, I'm, I'm sure you're gonna change that.
I'm sure you're gonna change that going forward, if that's what's important to you, obviously. If that's what's important. Yeah, definitely. So you had help at that point, and I think you're right. That, that is important, isn't it? Because, you know, I, I had simi- similar challenges because you can't be good at everything, and you do have to, you know, be in all of these areas of, of growing a business when you're doing it.
And like you said, being self-aware enough to go, "You know, I'm great at this bit. I'm not so good at this bit. I need support over there," is, is really critical. And so [00:30:00] having that- That partner or, you know, um, collaborators working with to, to fill in the gaps that you, you're s- you sort of can't fill is, is really crucial.
So he, he did that for you.
Paul: Big time. Yeah. I was always... Uh, what he made me realize, I was too emotional about everything. So I would go, "We've delivered this great campaign or this amazing project, and isn't it great? Let's brag about it. Let's tell our friends and family. Let's put it on social media. Look at this great thing we've done."
And I was emotional about it- Mm ... and thinking that, "Isn't it great the client's happy?" You know, the emotive parts. And he was like, "Well, no. Number one is did we make any profit on the project? Let's, uh, un- unpick the project. And number two, what was the commercial outcome for the client?" So he, he really started to teach us culturally about, sure, be emotive, it's great.
You're an agency. Of course you're creative, right? But-
Jess: Mm ... ask
Paul: the client did they make money? Ask the client did the campaign give them a return on investment? Yeah. Did the website increase their leads? Um, so he was very good commercially for me.
Jess: That's brilliant to have that, that other side. Yeah, you always need someone who's, like, good with the numbers, don't you, and someone who's gonna be having that creative flair.
Um, yeah, definitely. That's great. So you had, had that support going forward. This time business partnership [00:31:00] was going well after everything you've learned. So, you know, growth and evolution of that business then. Were, were you cautious because of all the experiences you'd been through before, or you were just like full steam ahead, let's make this, you know?
Paul: Yeah, so I don't know if risk was, uh, like, uh, the, the p- it wasn't in my DNA or something at those points in my career. But, um, I think kept pushing, kept pushing was the thing. And, uh, I think- Yeah ... you realize sometimes it- there's, there is a time to breathe and look at your business and go, "It's all right as we are for a while.
We can maintain this, and build reserves- Yeah ... and be ready for the next stage when it's the right time."
Jess: Yeah. Absolutely. It's very, um... You're clearly very, like, driven and career-focused. Was there any time for, you know, since the, that time in the '90s to have a personal life and, and sort of build, build it that way?
Were you, um, you know, were you good at work-life balance? Are you?
Paul: No. No. No. Um, I met my wife, uh, when I was deep into the printing business, and, uh, uh, she lived in South London, I lived up in Hertfordshire, and she would reverse commute to Hertfordshire to see me all the time. And o- often she'd come into the printing [00:32:00] company, and our evenings would be me running a machine or making sure something was going out on for delivery in the morning whilst we ordered a takeaway, and she's just pottering about having...
And sometimes having a drink in the, in the factory. And some of our social life was very linked to the business. In dating, literally, like, sixth date might have been at my company. You know, like, it was crazy. Blimey.
Jess: She must have really liked you then. That's all I'm gonna say.
Paul: Poor girl. Trauma for 17 s- years since.
Um, but even having kids I think is great, taking them to work and having that culture and that environment. Um, you know- Mm ... it's, it's a
Jess: bit of fun. Yeah. And obviously they're seeing what you didn't see growing up, somebody building something from scratch, and hopefully, um, inspiring them rather than the opposite of what you had, which was, yeah, nobody wanting to do it.
Paul: Or putting them off. Like a lot of my friends have said, "Oh, I wanted to start a business, but I've seen how pa- much pain you've been through." So yeah.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, I can see how it would put people off, like when you see it from the outside. Um, my favorite is when people say things like, "Oh, it must be so nice running your own business.
You know, you can choose your own hours and get up when you want." And you're like, "No, no, it just means that I have, like, 15 different bosses," depending on how [00:33:00] many clients you've got on at the time. And, um, yeah, working all hours all, all, yeah, all week is, is not... Yeah, it's not.
Paul: I personally think running a business is 90% pain and 10% elation that you don't get from another occupation.
Mm. So it's just so much, so much trauma and effort, um, that people don't see or appreciate. Um, this, a fa- a quote I heard in my teens that I loved was... And it doesn't, again, it, it, it, it implicates money, but I don't think this is what it was about for me, was, "It was living a few years of your life like no one else is willing, so you can live the rest of your life like no one else can."
Mm. That does imply wealth, but I don't think that was what I, I took from it, was, like, trying to get rich. It was more just I wanted to create something, and, um, still do, you know. I wanted to create something- Yeah ... that makes a difference.
Jess: Yeah. I can definitely relate on that, on that front. I mean, yeah, the, the proper job, you know, element didn't really last long for me either, and that was, that was because of, I think, seeing- Seeing myself as helping somebody else build their wealth and legacy, which didn't really sit, sit well with me.
But the building and what we're doing now isn't about the financial gain so much as about, you know, [00:34:00] making something that you're proud of. And, I mean, I, I'll say this out loud, I like the praise. You know, when you do a great job for a client, and they're happy with what you've done, and they come back for more, and they refer you, like, that's such a good feeling, isn't it?
When you're, you're building that reputation with what, how good you are at what you do.
Paul: Yeah. I think it, it depends what you're, what you want from things. But, um, one of my most proud, proudest moments of my career was probably about 2010. Um, we were up for, um, a print award for Print Company of the Year in the digital marketings, uh, digital printing space.
Um, and it, for me, that was like a ... It would've been nice to win, but we were kind of like a ... It was up for our, it was our technical skills award. It wasn't kind of like our culture award, and I sort of really wanted to Sort of if you ever get something like that moment where you win a national award for your industry, it was like, you know, do you really want to be
Because you're, you're quite good at the thing you should be quite good at, you know, and you other people have voted that you're not bad at it.
Jess: Um-
Paul: Yeah ... and we were up for an award, and my wife at the time, um, and we were, you know, we ... She was working the business as well, and we were working 1,000 hours a week and exhausted, and we went to this awards, and we didn't win the award, and she was tearful, and she was like, "Can we leave?"
Aw. And I'm like, "No, we've [00:35:00] got to stick it out. We, we support these events because you're part of the industry. We'll stay to the end, then we'll shuffle off." But she was quite upset. And then they started to describe for the, um, the award they give out every few years for, like, a lifetime achievement or contributions to industry award, it was called People in Print, um, started to describe the business about, um, having employed 20 apprentices in two years and had got through being insolvent from day one and all the thing
Inventing technology that didn't exist in the industry and all this stuff. And I'm going, "God, who's this guy? Sounds like us. They're brilliant." Um, and then they asked me to go to stage, and I won, like, a People in Print award, which was like a- Oh, wow ... given out, given out a few times every decade, you know.
And, um, it was brilliant because of what I explained earlier. It wasn't because we were quite good at what we should be good at. It was because we were really different. Um, and- Mm ... our culture was what won that award, not-
Jess: Yeah ... our competencies,
Paul: you know.
Jess: Oh, I love that, 'cause yeah, we didn't leave.
Paul: Yeah, I know.
Imagine. Like, you know, can you imagine?
Jess: That would've been really gutting, wouldn't it? To hear about that the next day. Yeah.
Paul: Wins described. Yeah.
Jess: Oh, my God. That's mad. Is, um ... So that, that's a proudest moment, which is, which is, you know, is great, and I'm [00:36:00] sure you've got many more in the bag as well, and many more to come, but, you know, every founder goes through lots of difficult periods, which you have already, but what, what's probably one of the, the most toughest moments, and what's helped you get through that?
Paul: Hardest point has been very recently. So, um, autumn 2025, few months ago, uh, we were negotiating with another agency to acquire them or merge together. Um, I was quite distracted with that deal, um, very excited by it. You know, there's a real synergy between their business owners and what they wanted and what we wanted, and, um, very excited by, by that happening.
Um, it would've taken our team up, headcount up, would've given us more reach. It was just exciting. So, so many levels, and I think, uh, I have extraordinarily guilt because I think for many months I was focusing on that. I wasn't focusing on our business for a while. Um, and our revenue dropped, our cash flow completely dried up, and, uh, we ended up having to flip the deal.
So it was us being the, call it aggressive party in a merger, taking on another business, um, and working with them as a, as a one team. Um, and MWP had to, um, uh, stop trading in, uh, end of November because of our money situation. [00:37:00] And we still continued with the merger, just a completely different format to we originally planned.
Um, but the, the m- the four or five months leading up to that, um- Every single night not sleeping till 4:00, 5:00 in the morning worrying about paying the staff and the absolute guilt knowing that it's, and, and when you care about your staff, it's not the, because I'm taking my eye off the ball because of a strategic decision, um, I'm letting people down.
They can't pay their mortgages if I pay them a week late, if- Mm ... all dependent on that. And we were in that situation. We were in a real dire straits. And, uh, I had a choice to take on a six-figure loan to get us through that and continue with the original deal. I'll be honest with you, I, I, I bottled that choice to take the, the debt on personally.
Jess: Mm.
Paul: Um, and we continued with the merger. We, you know, end of the day, the brand was bought by HC and, and we're now, you know, that's all going really well. But a number of staff couldn't come on the journey 'cause we couldn't continue with everyone's roles, and I would regard everyone I did work with as friends, and there's probably a few people now regard me as a friend.
And, uh, um, very difficult decisions, um, and it's all on me, and it was all my fault basically, and that's hard- Yeah ... you
Jess: know? Yeah. That is really, really tough. Oh, I feel for you. I definitely feel for you. [00:38:00] And it, it's that you can't be everywhere though, can you? You can't be everywhere all of the time. Yeah.
It's really tough to, to do that. And, you know, the, the creative industries in general are having a tough time, aren't they? So, you know, the, the cashflow conversation is not gonna be a surprise, um, or alien to anybody listening who is, are in that industry at the moment. Have you got any opinions on that over the, the last few years?
Because, you know, agencies are kind of dropping like flies at, at the moment and, you know, either having to pivot quite heavily, um, to, to get through or, you know, many of them are having to take on those loans to, to, to ride the wave, you know? It, yeah, what, what's, what do you think's gone on? What's going on?
Do people not like creative anymore?
Paul: No- I don't know. There's, there's, there's a, there's a survey I read from, um, a company, an organization called Agency Collective that's backed by WOW Company, which are accountants. And, um, they, they produce reports about the industry. And one thing that I read, uh, recently that scared the hell out of me was that the average agency of under a million turnover used to have about four or five months leeway of running costs in their, their reserves- Mm
with debt. And now the, the average is people have the most, I think it was [00:39:00] two thirds ha- have less than a month's cashflow to pay their overheads. And that feels like the printing industry felt to me when I exited it 10 years ago was that the commodity itself was being l- undervalued by the market and the customers, and it's changing so quickly.
I just, I'm really scared for agencies that it's changing quicker than that happened to me 10, 15 years ago was- Print was an evolution, b- a d- a decline e- evolutionary because it was over a longer period of time of it wasn't the only channel of marketing, you know?
Jess: Mm.
Paul: Whereas now it feels like, I feel it's been quite rapid, the, the, the change, um-
Jess: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. But it's, um, you know, something's gonna have to shift, isn't it? Because, you know- Mm ... however, whatever happens within that market, businesses still need those skills. They still need those, um, you know, branding, website skills that people, um, you know, are trying to build in these agencies. So how do you think that's gonna play out?
Is it, is it all gonna die a death, and then people are gonna realize, "Oh, shit, bring the agencies back. We need these [00:40:00] experts again"?
Paul: I think a couple things are gonna happen. I think, uh, sadly so many, uh, very talented marketeers have lost their occupation and are going fractional. Seems to be the big thing these days, a lot of people are going fractional.
I think that is a exciting space. I think the US are ahead of the UK with regards to, um, e- uh, embracing kind of somebody having three jobs. You know, three, four different jobs. I think that's more commonplace outside the UK in, in, in, in North, uh, North America. I think that's gonna come over here personally.
Um, I think scarcity of time isn't gonna go away, but scarcity of knowledge has gone. So, you know, knowing how to write a blog, of course use AI and then check it yourself. You know, um, setting up a social media strategy, of course ask AI and then make sure you feel right about it, you know? I'd even say that the, the writing of a brand strategy could be done by AI, but the development of the process of working with humans like you do, Jess, like-
Jess: Mm
Paul: running workshops, understanding the people in the business, the culture, I can't see that changing. So I think the scarcity of time element there comes in. So a business that doesn't have the resources will still come to an agency and say-
Jess: Yeah ... "I
Paul: want this expertise. I d- but I know some of it could be automated."
Jess: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:00] So I think, I think you're right, and yeah, I'm s- I'm seeing a lot of that. You know, l- businesses know that they need to be adopting AI, they know then that can do a lot of the work. Sad to say out loud, but they won't need a massive marketing department anymore, you know, because a lot of that can, can be done.
But what they will need is experts, expert marketers who know how to, um, utilize AI effectively. With marketing you still need to know what the outcome needs to be, don't you, to what to feed in it, otherwise it's just shit in, shit out, isn't it, e- essentially. Um, and I would argue similar with blogs, you know?
Like you can, you can ask AI to write a blog, but if you don't know how to brief that properly, you know, you're not, you're not gonna get the best outcome. So I think, I think you're right. I think there will be, um, an uptake in, you know, creatives turning to more sort of like consultancy roles to help businesses, um, plan, you know, use AI, adapt, train the people within the business field to use it.
Um, and I do worry for creatives. It's such a sad place to be, 'cause you know, I came from a graphic design background as well, you know, it's, [00:42:00] it's really quite heartbreaking when you see what AI can do now that, you know, you would, you would've needed, um, a, a really specialist artist to do before. But- I really worry for those creatives who aren't, who are still rejecting it really, really heavily.
Because if you can be a really fantastic graphic designer but be able to utilize AI to make the work faster and more efficient so you can do more of it, you can, you can use that, uh, you know, and, and charge accordingly if you're, if you're an expert in both those things, you know, and be able to up your volume of work, charge more.
Like, uh, there's, there's other things that I, I hope, you know, creatives are gonna think about before they, you know, just, you know, go into a completely different role. Um, but it's a hard- it's still a really emotional decision to have, isn't it, um, with people?
Paul: I think you've gotta remem- So I met a photographer yesterday, stuck in my mind, and he was talking about, um, how his photography business was in decline because everyone was saying, "Well, I can, you know, generate these images."
And he was doing the, you know... So I was talking about sectors, and he was talking about a lot of things like manufacturing, people that make things in the UK. They, they still want someone to [00:43:00] go there and v- create short videos of their things being made. And I think that's, look, that's a great place to focus because, you know, they can't create that themselves.
You know, they could use their phone, but you know, they can't create it themselves. But he was talking about the fact that what he's using AI for now is, is creative, uh, concepts. Yeah. So he's, he's speaking to the clients about, "Before I go and spend a day that I would normally have spent coming down and looking at your building and what you need to do, here is, uh, something I've used AI for.
Is this the sort of creative direction you want?" Right. And
Jess: creating
Paul: stickiness with that. The other thing I think is a really good story is, um, uh, we had a client that was like a laser eye surgery clinic and, and, and, you know, something that no one wants to get done but people get, people get done. And so- Mm
many thousands of pounds. And on their homepage, the... And I, I never, and I asked the question, I think it was they wrote their copy for their website using AI. And the- imagine the problem. They've gone, um, "96% of our customers are really happy with their, their outcomes of their laser eye surgery." Now, I'm a marketeer and I've gone, "Go to the worst place that someone thinks."
I don't wanna get this done, so I've got fear. And you're telling me you- do you blindfold percent of people then?
Jess: Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's where my head went. Yeah.
Paul: Like, you've gotta think, an AI would do the logical strap line-
Jess: Mm ...
Paul: but a marketeer will [00:44:00] apply human psychology.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it?
And I think, I think it is coming back around. You know, I think there was a period probably as soon as, as close as last year where everyone was using AI to write their website copy, blogs, LinkedIn posts, and now everybody recognizes that as LinkedIn. So people are coming back around now and- rejecting it, which is the wrong way.
But like you, you can, but you need to have that creative eye, the writer eye, the design eye to be able to get the best output from it, and I think that's where creatives need to be focusing on now. Because you're right, it's, it's, uh, these business owners who are building are always gonna be time poor as well.
They are not going to be, "Oh, I'm gonna sit down and learn Claude for three days," because they've got other things to do. But they will pay you for your time to train their marketer how to utilize it in their business. So I think there's, there's lots of opportunities out there. I just worry that people are, you know, fiercely rejecting it still instead of thinking, "Okay, how can I [00:45:00] use it, um, to, to support with what I'm doing and show people how to do it correctly?"
You know? I think, I think there's an opportunity there. Absolutely I
Paul: think, I think, you know, you've got to bear in mind AI, GEO, AEO, whatever you want to call it, um, it is a new channel, right? And I think from a, from a brand point of view, it's quite actually exciting. You know, when some, some data I was reading recently was that, um, referrals are always the number one converting percentage of a lead type.
So if, if I refer someone to you, they've got a far higher chance of converting because they're gonna go, "Th- this person trusts them, they've used them. There's a high chance." Um, other things have always been second and third, like social media, funnily enough, and also things like exhibitions and events in the B2B space.
But AI search or GEA or whatever you want to call it, has crept up into the second place because if you're having a conversation about, um, a- an experience you want to do, like book in a restaurant or holiday you want to go on or, or a business provider, you feel a little bit like whatever AI you use, it's your kind of advisor.
So the conversion rate's pretty high from people that are getting inquiries on their website or social media off the back of being recommended by a, a chatbot [00:46:00] or a certain platform, and I think that's really interesting.
Jess: That is really interesting, isn't it? 'Cause there, there is, um, lots of data out there.
People are not using Google Search as much, like the traditional search engines, and are going to, to AI to... I mean, I did it the other way for, to, to look at planning a trip. You know, that's where I went first, 'cause that's where, where I thought all the easiest information would come from. So in, in terms of that then, like, how...
If a business is listening and they're like, "Oh, shit," like is that the same as SEO? Like, is it, do we need to go and talk to an SEO agency, or is it a different sort of service?
Paul: It's very, very similar. Um, it's very, the core principles are extremely similar, 'cause obviously, look, Google are the head of the race, right?
So their, their Gemini now is head of everything on... If you search for anything, Gemini is-
Jess: Mm.
Paul: 95% of the search results will show you a Gemini answer before map listings or pay-per-click or anything. So, you know, as the, the leading search engine, they're, you know, they're ahead of it. So, and you've got to convince their algorithms that, that, that you're the, the leader.
What we're seeing is, I don't understand, I'm not really an SEO person, but, uh, EEAT is far more important, the sort of framework of SEO, where it's more about trust. [00:47:00] So if, if AI is gonna recommend your business or your brand or your service or your products or whatever it may be to solve a problem of the query-
Jess: Mm
Paul: it's got to, it, it, it's listening a little bit more to trust signals in the market, so whether that might be reviews or social proof. Yeah. Um, and I think that's gonna extend because if you think about it, if AI is given an answer of one, maybe, maybe some others, but really an answer of one, um, it's, it's got to know that, that other people like the product or service or solution, and I think it's gonna, over the years, listen more to consumer feedback and data touch points that aren't just, "Did this guy write 40 blogs last year?"
You know?
Jess: Yeah.
Paul: They'll listen to more than that.
Jess: Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating time to be in, definitely, isn't it? It'll be interesting to see what we're talking about next year, 'cause things are moving that fast, aren't they? Yeah, absolutely. So you're moving into yet another chapter, um, at the moment. What most excites you about that now?
Because you've, you, you've obviously built up your resilience, you know, you know, n- this too shall pass, everything changes, everything's temporary, all the rest of it, and there will be exciting things ahead. So what are you most excited about, about the next chapter? [00:48:00] I
Paul: think I'm, I'm very grateful to have two great business partners now.
Um, uh, one, uh, one guy is absolutely phenomenal. All the things I'm really bad at, like the HR and the finance side of things, and that, that's what I've always needed. I feel that's been, that's been an Achilles heel in my career. So it's been great to have someone to take care of all of that side of things.
And another guy that's just so commercially astute, and a really good ideas guy, and salesperson as well. So in, in the, in the dynamic of the board that we've got now, like, I can be a little bit more visionary and l- work on new ideas and new incentives. And, um, something that we're working on now is a, a really, really big event we're gonna run this winter in, in Essex or Hertfordshire or London.
Um, we're gonna try and get 1,000 small businesses together in the same building, run a conference, um, exhibition, networking event. And, uh, we're not looking to make money out of it. We're just looking to educate people, support small businesses, and give them all the things that our network knows. Mm. Um, really passionate about that because I feel like it can fast-track someone that's in their 20s or 30s in their career and shave a bit, a bit of, bit of the, the resistance off.
You know? Like, I, I really believe in, I think Daniel Priest is about failing fast, you know, and he applies that to marketing, but I think you can apply that to business, you know?
Jess: Absolutely. [00:49:00] Yeah.
Paul: Learn what doesn't work quickly, quicker by learning from people that have been there before you, you know?
Jess: Absolutely. It's so powerful, isn't it? And it, it goes back to being in the right room, isn't it? And I, and that, that's another thing I worry about, about the younger generation starting businesses, is the, you know, sitting behind a screen in a desk all day. Like, you need to get out there, and especially find, find a room where you are the dumbest person in the room.
You know nothing. Everyone around you is just, like, magnificent to you, and it's okay to be nervous and terrified being in that room. It means you're in the right room and you're gonna learn something. So- Mm ... an event like that sounds like something I would have, yeah, I would have eaten up 20 years ago. So yeah.
Mm. I'm sure you won't have any trouble filling, filling that hole.
Paul: No, definitely. And I think what we're also doing is, again, to embrace this fractional sort of mindset now, where people can employ someone on a, on a, on a fractional basis. Mm-hmm. Um, we- we've got a, a few dozen consultants that will be with part of our group, um, and people will have access to them.
You know, it doesn't have to be a big expensive retainer. It can be kind of a gig, gig economy where a small business owner can go, "I've got a problem. I identify I can't solve it." But I can't afford a [00:50:00] guy on a fractional salary of X, you know? But-
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: can you help me with this problem? Um, and I really wanna give people access to that kind of expertise without it, you know, being, um, you know, bank breaking, you know?
Jess: I love that. I love that because it's, it, you know, some businesses are in a transition phase where, you know, they're not gonna be able to afford a full-time financial director or a marketing director. They can't do that at that point, but they know something's broke. They can't quite put their finger on it, and they need some advice from someone who's gone through it, um, to help them.
And I, I think that, you know, I am seeing that a lot now. Like, you know, I've been where you are with the, the agency side as well, and it's amazing how many people are like, "Tell me everything you know." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I failed at it." And they're like, "Yeah, but tell me everything you know so that I can, you know, I can take those lessons that you've already learned."
I, I just think that's so, so powerful, and I think if you can, you know, get all those, the different perspectives and different challenges, and I think it's key because people will feel less alone in the challenges and the shit that's going on because it can feel quite isolating when you feel like you're really [00:51:00] fucking up.
Well- Um, you think, "Oh my God, it's me. It's my fault." Whereas actually, like, you know, 50,000 other business owners are going through exactly the same thing, but we're just not talking about it enough. So yes, I, I'm excited about that. Can I come?
Paul: Of course you can. You can just ... You'd have to be a speaker. We, um- I'd love that
we, we, um, at my personal website I've been working on recently, uh, uh, the, the message on the top of the site is, uh, "Growing a business is hard. Don't do it alone." Because that's the one, probably a, a summary of everything I've been through in, in three decades of, of being self-employed is trying to do it alone.
It really is a quick way to fail, you know? Um, and not in a good way, like some, you know, uh, Baron Priestley's methodology, you know. You need to work with great people. You need to build a network. You need to have people that you can do favors for, and they can do favors for you, and you can help each other out.
And things- Yeah ... don't go well, you, you still don't fall out. You figure out a way to build relationships and keep, keep, uh, keep a level of empathy and trust. And, um- Mm ... that's why I wanna build this network is, you know, a not-for-... Sort of a not-for-profit. Um, uh, it'll be People Behind Brands, which is the, the, our former podcast name.
Um, we're gonna continue that. And, uh, yeah, we, we, we did our first event last June. It was actually about a year ago today, and we had about 400 people to an event, and it was fantastic, and a really good experience. So, you know, every-everything has happened. Um, we're [00:52:00] still running an agency, but have a bit more time for these types of things, which is cool.
Jess: And that sounds like where that's your lane, isn't it? The, the ideas, the, the innovation side, not the sort of like boring day-to-day cashflow planner.
Paul: No,
Jess: definitely not. Not my thing. Yeah, I feel your pain on that one. I'm like, "Ooh, I've, I've dreamt up a new idea at 3:00 o'clock in the morning. Can we do it?"
And now I have to go to, today, my business partner to go, "Can we afford to do this?" And he says no, and then I get sulky, so, uh.
Paul: Yeah, well, I think it was, it was, it was very telling that, um, one of the other ... So three directors have run our business. One of the other directors is very much like me, squirrel in a t- tree mode, I call it.
So, you know, I'm trying to focus on a thing I'm supposed to be doing, and almost ADHD brain says, "Well, this is a great idea. Let's do this." He's just- Mm ... the same as me. But, um, uh, the, the CFO put in a, uh, three-vote system on many important topics in our shareholders agreement. I think it was because he realized that one of the two of us, or two of the three of us, are always gonna have a random idea that's gonna- Yeah
distract us from our lane. So,
Jess: um- Yeah ... yeah. And that's why CFOs exist. But I do think that that, you know, [00:53:00] that, what's the word? You know, idea generation, the spontaneity, the excitement levels, I think that is just a typical trait of someone who ends up running their own business or being an entrepreneur. I think you do have to have that, um, get a, g- fall down, get back up again, new idea, change, um, and keep going, definitely.
And, you know, the more conversations I have like this, the more I realize that, you know? Like, and now I can spot, I can spot that person a mile off. I'm like, "You run your own business, or you have done. I can tell by your personality. Or if you haven't, you should be." Yes. Yes. Yeah, definitely. If you could, if you could give one piece of advice, then, for perhaps a young business person that's starting an agency, or they're early on in a creative career and are thinking about starting a business, what would you say to them at, at this point?
Paul: A couple of things really. I think, um, partner, partner, partner. Just work with everyone that you feel that could be a partner. You don't have to make all 100% of the profit that you generate, the revenue that you generate, right? So partner with people that w- that do things you don't do. Learn from them.
That's a really big thing I've learned is to, you know, don't [00:54:00] say you do everything. Maybe you sell that you do things, but partner with people and learn from that process. And, and hang out with people that are, that are, are where you wanna be. You know, try and get into events and ask questions. You know, um, I've been very fortunate to work with, uh, people like Lord Sugar through, through the years on the, some of the Apprentice winners and things like that, and, uh, many of the, the group's businesses.
And that came from going to an event where I put my hand up and asked a question, and they didn't wanna answer it, funnily enough, at the event. They, they took the microphone off me. But I get to go, I got to go behind the curtain and have a conversation with the man himself, and had a relationship for one and a half decades.
So, you know, I think putting yourself out there, um-
Jess: Yeah ...
Paul: is one trait, but partnering up.
Jess: Put yourself out there and partnering up. I love that. That, that does, um, I had a similar experience actually at a, um, at a conference, and we did land quite a big client from it, from, you know, raising your hand and asking a question.
And since that day, I think that was about 15 years ago now, I always, always ask a question at a conference or event or a panel interview. Because even if you, you know, don't know if there's an opportunity there or there's, that's someone you wanna spend time with and ask questions to, they remember you a little bit more when you go up to them afterwards at [00:55:00] the drinks reception and be like, "Hey."
And they're like, "Oh yeah, you asked a question." And then you, you can sort of start off that, that relationship. So there's a free tip to everyone. Make sure you ask a q- ask a question at every conference and event, and you never know where that might lead.
Paul: 100%. Yeah. I think, you know, we, we're born with two ears and one mouth, right?
So, you know, obviously you've gotta talk about what you wanna talk about, but you've gotta listen and absorb when you're younger.
Jess: Absolutely. And I think just, you know, ditch that, that pride and ego, I think as well is, is a really important one, I think. Um, you don't know everything. You never will know everything.
Um, so go out there and be curious, and, and, um, yeah, and speak to people definitely. It sounds exciting though, Paul, and it sounds like you've got, you know- You've got your head, you know, screwed on. That sounds really patronizing, but you know what I mean.
Paul: You got it. Definitely, yeah. But,
Jess: you know, you know that things, some things work out, some things don't, and you, you know how to, you know, take those learnings and move forward.
Um, I wanna tie it back to the alchemy theme as I normally do at these podcasts. So if you had, um, a personal alchemy formula for success, what would the one ingredient be [00:56:00] and why?
Paul: Cor, what a question. Oh my goodness me. Um, so you relate it to branding or? Yeah, I think, um,
Jess: any- Success, you know, life, like any lessons you wanna impart.
Paul: I, I think, uh, it sounds a bit like a benign strapline but give to gain. I really believe in finding relations- building relationships based upon finding out what people wanna do, who their ideal clients are, and, and generating referrals. I think that's a great way to build trust and relationships. I do think investing in your knowing who you are and your brand and your positioning is so important.
Whether you're a one-man band or you're a corporation, I think that's absolutely fundamental to-
Jess: Mm-hmm ...
Paul: to even if, you know, don't use AI, use an agency. But, you know, find out who, what your values are, right? Um, and, and have them even if you have 'em on your, you know, to yourself. But when you go out and you market and you sell yourself or speak to potential clients, you've got those in the, in the locker.
Um, I think they would, they'd be really, really important.
Jess: Love that. Thanks, Paul. Really appreciate your time.
Paul: Superb. Thank you. It's been great.
Jess: We'll have to do a chapter two and see what you've been up to, um, about a year from now.
Paul: Sounds good. Sounds really good. Superb.
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