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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
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Liz: [00:00:00] Well, welcome, everyone. We're just going conversing about today's topic prior to as we generally do. Didn't mean to rhyme there, but want to talk about, I guess what came to my mind for me when wanting to discuss this is an individual perspective. I keep kind of, that keeps kind of bouncing around in my head.
Tim: Now tell them, tell them why, tell them how [00:01:00] this was fostered. How this came to be.
Liz: And that is, I'm just noticing societal, personal, professional life.
Tim: But something big happened. We had an election.
Liz: Oh, yes. I mean that, but it's more, it's been growing prior to the election.
I want to go through a timeline when we started seeing this come together. So let me give you some backstories to what I'm talking about. I find it challenging for individuals to really Conceptualize an individual idea for self, without influences from other people first.
Tim: Simply put, you want people to
Liz: Think for yourself.
Tim: Think for yourself. That's right.
Liz: I mean that's literally, I mean that's Yeah. That's the basic terminology. I was trying to sweeten it up a little bit. No, no, no, no. I get it. But yes thinking for yourself.
And I, not to sound like I'm trying to be inconsiderate to people, but it actually does, it's such a disservice to yourself to fall into I keep calling it like a communal, the
Tim: [00:02:00] collective.
Liz: The collective, the Borg.
Tim: The Borg. There you go, the Borg.
Liz: But we joke, but it is systematically like that.
Tim: We're seeing it.
Liz: And so when I want to talk about the timeline of when this started generating this collective, if you will. I told you that I believe that the birth of social media really kept or really started organizing maybe this group mentality of belief systems and guidance and validation markers, right?
Like I'm really validated for self on likes and inputs and comments and things like that. And then when I see somebody else spewing their information, then I think, well then I'm justified.
Tim: Let's say with the advent of social networking, it became a self-selected way of. Pigeonholing people and we get to pick our own groups, right? So here we are walking through the world and we're going to now pick out the people we're going to become a group with. So it [00:03:00] started out with friends and family and then friends and family became friends and friends and family.
Loved ones, relations, co workers. Now the circle begins to expand. As we expand, Now we get a little bit more noise because the circle allowed people on the outside of the fringe, who you don't really know very well, they are chirping back to you some things maybe you weren't expecting were totally foreign to you, especially when you start sharing your opinions.
And that is foreign to us and quite frankly we're not, we don't, we're not very good at confrontation anyway. Thank you. And that's where the advent of the keyboard warrior came about, right? And that morphed into where we are now, where we have just trolls. We have people literally willing to throw hand grenades into civil conversations just to blow people up.
Liz: That is exactly what I'm wanting to target today, is how do we identify that and don't [00:04:00] fall into it? I mean, everyone's out there poking at you and, you know, in some way of antagonizing you.
Tim: Mhm.
Liz: If you were to step back and say, how and why do I let this get to me so much or activate me so much?
Tim: Yeah
Liz: So much so to a mental health decline, to, you know, a physical fitness, not just fitness, but your physical stress is killing people. Literally.
Tim: Your physical wellbeing is impacted by your mental baggage. Yeah. And now that spills over into Your closest relationships, your communication skills, your work.
It's dangerous.
Liz: So when we look at the development of Facebook,
Tim: you mean something similar to Facebook so that we don't have any litigation?
Liz: Not really Facebook.
Tim: Yes, Something like Facebook. Fakebook. There you go.
Liz: Specifically
Facebook, but a
social
media platform.
Tim: Social media platform.
Liz: When it was in its development, we'll [00:05:00] just hypothesize. Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, in talking about social media platforms, the idea that befriending someone on an online platform was kind of unique to me.
Tim: Right.
Liz: Because of the interpersonal piece is missing. Right. Right. When people will share, you know, I've got over 2, 000, 5, 000 friends or followers or, you know, whatever it is, it's like, oh, my goodness, I personally, this is probably my age, but I'm like, what a violation for people to be that involved in my life that, do you even know anything about me?
Tim: Well, you left the front door open.
Liz: Completely.
Tim: Everybody's walking in. You invite him. You invite him.
Liz: Yeah.
Tim: Oh, by the way, here's all, these are pictures of all my friends and family, because every place I've been, this is how I think, this is what I cook, this is pictures of me making duck lips, remember when we went up to duck lips?
That was the big thing. And as that morphed The door got wider and wider because now my friends of friends of friends are now my friends.
Liz: The friends of friends of [00:06:00] friends, and it just kind of spirals, right? Oh, yeah. And then along with all of those, you know, individuals that you're allowing in is their belief systems.
Right. Their moral, ethical, political, whatever, you know, all of that starts. And so then you're really getting a collective going.
Tim: Mm hmm.
Liz: However, if for one moment you were to someone were to post a funny picture of something and you were to say, well, that's not really funny. Oh, you are outcasted quickly.
Tim: We already know that that is absolutely true, right? Yeah. You already know of it's all funny until you post something of a prophet or something of a religious leader or something of a pastor priest. God, whatever, everybody just loses their minds. And you go from once you literally are cast out and vilified.
Liz: And then, excuse me. So that idea is we, there is that, that's when we are losing that individual piece [00:07:00] of, of self. And then we start developing that more and more and more. So we're completely removing any identity of, of self. So when someone shares with you an idea of just, Hey, I heard this and I'm going to be very broad.
You know, I heard this new store was opening and they have all these things that are coming in and I don't agree with them. And then you're just like, yes, I agree. And you're kind of that go along to get along individual because. If I were to stop and really think why it is that I'm thinking and saying the things that I'm thinking and saying Are they my things?
Are they somebody else's?
Tim: Right.
Liz: And Well, but Liz if I were to say my thoughts, I would have zero friends. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's why we don't do it.
Tim: We know because both of us were raised Not a lot of money. Nope. The frugal shopper would not fly with some of the people. I thought, I would be very proud of the [00:08:00] fact that I could buy, and believe me, I have.
I've shown up to work in less than 5 dollar wardrobe and Nobody is any of the wiser, but I know I bought those jeans for a dollar, and I bought that shirt for two dollars, And why is that? Because society throws away whatever they want, and one man's junk is another man's treasure.
But if you were to post on there that I got this, you would be absolutely raked over the coals. Well, you're white, trash, trailer, whatever. Yeah.
Liz: So it's really interesting, because something is Well, to that level, I shouldn't say a level. I boast with my clientele in my office. They appreciate my decor and I say, Well, it's mostly Goodwill and garage sales.
And it really is. Or sometimes Well, another platform that sells items on it. But yeah, I I'm like, oh my goodness, yes, I got that at Goodwill for like five bucks. Like, I'm super pumped about it. And I don't, it doesn't even affect me that I'm like, well, I want them all to think that I [00:09:00] went in wherever Vera Wang's, all of her decor comes from or whatever.
Tim: Beyond the practicality and common sense. And being frugal with a dollar is the idea that you just, there's no way, you're just not going to live up to my expectations because that's the way you think or that's the way you dress and that's really unfortunate but I will say this, I bet you I can look through everybody's closet.
I've known lots of people who make lots of money and you'll see them into Goodwill. And they won't admit it. But this is where the Goodwill's getting a lot of plugs today. Yeah it is, it is, Goodwill is. But it is simply this, is that there's this, Remember when the formula was there's certain things we don't talk about?
We don't talk about religion, we don't talk about our politics, that's gone.
Yeah.
Now there are no filters. And now we talk about everything.
Liz: Mm hmm.
Tim: The problem is, is that now those topics have become a taboo and they've been driven so deep that the taboo around them [00:10:00] is if you have an opinion and it doesn't evolve in the way that I like that is an automatic, and it's big enough on that singular topic that I will excommunicate you.
Liz: Yep, and so, in keeping in line with what we're saying today, we're just trying to kind of set up a framework for you to understand why it's so, Easy for everyone to lose their opinion or and not even your opinion. It's not about that. It's yourself, yourself to lose yourself. To offer compassion and grace in that because society and maybe family systems or whatever have set you up for this
Tim: Yeah,
Liz: now it's time to have some recognition to it.
Tim: Yeah,
Liz: and the action of that is a lot harder
Tim: Yeah, it is
Liz: in saying well, I just can't go around saying what I think actually you can but we do need to Be aware what the outcome of that is.
Tim: Yeah,
Liz: You know, I have at times a very direct and assertive approach [00:11:00] that, which is my girls like to give me a hard time.
Like, I'm a pretty good dude because of the fact that I'm in that I would guess demeanor. And I'm like, I don't want to be that,
Tim: you don't want to have to be.
Liz: We all have to be able to be direct and not soft and.
Tim: That's right. ~You ~
Liz: ~know, the, you ~know, you have to
Tim: be able to go for.
But to question that, Liz, I would just say, why do you, this is where the my opinion is. As are all things with mine. You can fact check me or leave the room. But in these things where the feminist believes we need to be the stronger and why do I need a man and why do I need a partner? Why is because we're not supposed to do this alone.
Liz: Ideally,
Tim: and quite frankly the threat of combat in any way, shape or form, especially physical is not one that I would. ever wish upon a woman. Now, it's one thing to have some conflict, mostly topical or in conversation. What's another to have a physical threat? But frankly, making day to day [00:12:00] decisions that are tough, they need to be brought on by, I think, the people of our own gender and our own sexes, fathers to sons and mothers to daughters.
And in that, to combat this collective thought where I go along to get along. It's really dangerous. And you are quite literally freely giving up not only a freedom, but something that's uniquely yours. And I reserve the right to be uniquely arbitrary in any way, shape, or form, and that takes a bit of strength.
For your children, the people that you may mentor, or perhaps their subordinates to you, to understand that there has to be a certain amount of strength and discipline for those things to occur means that you have to have your own fortitude and strength to say, what I said I stand by.
It's not meant to harm you. It's not meant to harm anyone. It's really just to let you know a little [00:13:00] bit perhaps about me, but maybe I'm offering you some advice inadvertently that you can come back and talk to me on another day. We know collectively through the internet and these social networks, it hasn't been working out like that.
People have fallen under attack because of And I think in a conversation like this, how do we give people the tools to say, Maybe that's not something we talk about. Or, if you'd like to talk about it, we need to make an agreement that wherever we are, we try to see each other as equals, and that we're really coming to this table in conversation with nothing but a good outcome.
Win win. And if we're not, we continue to talk about it. Or we don't talk about it at all.
Liz: Just came to my mind when you were saying this, and I know you're going to recall There was a group interaction of philosophers and intellects that came together with Dr. Peterson of all different backgrounds and belief systems.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And they came in this roundtable.
Tim: Yes.
Liz: And [00:14:00] it was all spewed, and I just, I really enjoyed and I, I
Tim: Dennis Prager.
Liz: Was that the individual that said, what a Christian thing to say? What a Christian thing to say. Yeah, I loved it. I was like, that's so awesome. Because you are set, they all stepped into this, you know, room with their own beliefs, systems and ideas and had an open dialogue about that.
I thought it was great.
Tim: Well, excuse me, the, that comment. So Dr. Peterson, they were talking about right and wrong and justice in the end. And Peterson poses the question, Openly to everyone to answer, but I think Prager jumped on it first, was quite frankly, Don't you think when people do wrong before they leave this world, they should know that they've done wrong?
And why they're going to be punished. And then Prager goes, That is such a Christian thing to say. Because, not that I'm any world scholar, but, The Jewish relationship to God is, quite frankly, that's none of my concern. He's wrong. I'm not, somebody else handles it, [00:15:00] somebody else passed judgment, I, but Christians and I, we won't go down this rabbit hole too much, but Christians are of the thought that if you could only see the right and wrong and your chance to turn it around, and quite frankly in the discussion we have, I, I always make this example, three men died on that hill in Galilee, and the one man in his final breaths made a, made his realization He knew that there would be someone there after him.
Right. Now, not to spin the tale into a religious thing. However that from a Christian point of view, and I think from just the notion of right and wrong, you would really hope that people can see what's wrong and correct it. And if I can be any part of that, I'd love that. So here's But when punishment happens, justice should be blind.
Liz: Okay, here's the bad news. That's right. That's not going to happen. That's
Tim: right.
Liz: I tell people that all the time. That's the bad news. That's not going to happen. That's where we're losing. And the reason why I brought up that round table meeting [00:16:00] is there was engagement there where people weren't sitting around offended by what was being said.
There wasn't a lashing out and a defense, you know, of belittlement towards another professional or person. Why
Tim: do you think that is? They're all very secure. They're all very secure.
Liz: Yeah,
Tim: ideally, I hope so. They're secure in the way that they think and I would always mention that they're very open minded to what might be, but it only takes a little while to discern between, it's just something that's emotionally being thrown up or Can we go through this historically?
Can we go through this factually and say, let's pick this apart? I'm
Liz: glad you talked about that. So I shared with you earlier, one thing that I find is that everyone is residing in their amygdala and, emotionally responsive,
Tim: very limbic.
Liz: Yeah. And getting into critical thinking and reasoning and logic is actually really
Tim: it's a whole nother process.
Liz: [00:17:00] It's just not even being considered
Tim: that's right.
Liz: Drawn upon,
Tim: that's right.
Liz: And I think that is, whatever feeds us, and I said that to you earlier, what feeds you? And that's something I would pose to listeners as well. Who is feeding you you know, your information? Is it primarily social media, some friends, family?
Right. Do you have someone that kind of encourages your path and is that encouragement from their line of sight or yours? Cause if their journey for you is like, Hey, you should, Hey, you know what you should do next? And then after you're done, Oh, you should go over here and do this, this, and this. It's saying, Oh, that, I appreciate that feedback.
However, I was thinking I might do this. Oh, you shouldn't do that because that won't work out. You should do this. And then you're like, Okay, you're right. I'll just do this. Versus like, you know what? I'm going to wait. I'm going to, I'm going to try, you know, and there is that island I was telling you about.
We can be afraid to be on our own island, and we are, societally wise, afraid to be on our own island and exiled. And what I was looking up earlier is I wanted [00:18:00] to make sure I had it right because in internal family systems we talk about managers and firefighters and exiled parts of self.
So, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, Aristotle, I just wanted to make sure I was right there. Mm hmm. That is something collecting a whole sense of self and being able to engage in that. We're talking about a substantial amount of healing for an individual of looking through what holds me back belief systems, experiences, traumatic episodes, and have I kind of stagnated myself there unintentionally and unaware that I'm there?
It's just safer to be in this group than it is to really heal myself and say, as an individual, I stand alone. But as I shared with you earlier, you find your people. You're not alone. You're not on this island by yourself.
Tim: Well, you know, Liz, not to interrupt, but we talked about this earlier. So I served on school board for two terms.
I've [00:19:00] been to city council meetings. I'm very politically involved in my own local government.
I can tell you, you can't get three people in a room to agree on something.
And yet when I go to these city council meetings, I go to these board meetings, I see somebody pose a question and I almost immediately have to go, wait a minute, in this language, what about this, what about this, We're not going to talk about this. You have to make a decision, and what'll happen is they'll all unanimously vote, and I will almost objectively, in my own right, go against it.
You know why? It's because I have quest You're honoree. I'm honoree. It's true, I am honoree. But in the language that's being used, you're perpetuating rules and policies and laws that are really hard to undo. And when we go back historically, we go, well that's how we've always done it, now we've got a rule, now we've got a law for it, now you can get punished for it.
You know what, if that had just been, if the [00:20:00] comma had been moved over, if it had been more inclusive, if it had been more exclusive, it would have been a better law.
Liz: Are you saying that you were on your island a lot?
Tim: I'm, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're on your own island. And that's probably why people seek this collective mentality.
They always feel alone when, you know, they always feel this loneliness or this.
Liz: Well, we're not made to feel, I mean, we're not made to be alone. We can feel alone. We can feel isolated.
Tim: That's right.
Liz: And that's what deters us from this individuality piece that I'm talking about.
Tim: That's right.
Liz: I don't want to feel outcasted. I don't want to feel exiled or accused or belittled or whatever else.
Tim: What I would really hope that people know is that it really is okay to be strong and have your own opinions. And that show, you know, there's lots of people who, as managers and leaders, they're a bit abrasive.
But if you really think about it, they have a tough job. [00:21:00] The captain of any ship, because I'm a Navy guy, is, he's responsible for sailing a ship with men on it. He's responsible for every nut bolt on that thing. And he has to make tough decisions. And it's not going to go well for everyone.
But the whole, the whole point is, is that if you can understand his position, you'll understand why the decision's made. And that's what we don't do. And, but more importantly The other example was, we've seen videos where a man on the street with a microphone will ask a small group of people, Hey, what do you think about this?
Whatever,
Liz: yeah.
Tim: I'm for it, I'm for it, I'm for it. And the last one will go, I don't know. And then they turn, they'll turn on him. Pack of wolves. And literally, it's not just she's saying I'm against, she goes, I'm not sure. Or I don't know if that's the right thing, right? And you'll see the PAC turn on that person.
And all of this time they were friends, but now something's come up and you see on video [00:22:00] that they turn on a person. It happens with everybody. Well, when they start to question, now you're starting to get pushed out. And you really will go, Oh my gosh.
I'm just kidding guys. I I agree. There we go. Right. We've lost the strength of standing alone. And just to be accepted, we're going to go along to get along and zip. You're not going to say a word.
Liz: So my thoughts are as to, you know, okay, Dr. Halberstam, you guys are talking about this. What's the solve?
There's no really solve as it is understanding of self that of pushing self awareness, asking yourself more questions, self evolution. But one of the things that you're sharing, what that comes, that pops right into my head is, I don't think we respect anything anymore. And what I mean by that is, we can't even respect individuals in the same room with us because we walk in with judgments prior to going in.
Expectations, you know, I know this person's going to think, say, whatever. I mean, we're coming right up onto the [00:23:00] holidays and that's, everyone's kind of safeguarding, not just politically, but around whatever else.
Tim: This will be an interesting holiday after this election. Yeah. Very interesting.
Liz: And So we're walking in with our prejudgments and our disdain and our anger and we're walking in and that energy walks in with us.
So everybody's defensive. Everybody's ready to, to, you know, either walk out or engage in the unhelpful ways, let's put it that way. Being able to respect one another is a really hard ask because I will not respect a person that does X, Y, and Z.
Tim: So you're talking about being a really bad winner. And being a really gracious loser, perhaps.
But a gracious winner, too.
Liz: Right. And that thought mentality right there, of who's right, who's wrong, who's winning, who's losing, is problematic at best. You do have to know your audience, you have to know who you're going to engage. I share with individuals all the time, as you begin to think differently and [00:24:00] you begin to challenge old belief systems and start re engaging yourself in interactions and situations differently, your language changes, your engagement changes.
That doesn't fare well for you. And I'll tell you why. That's why change is hard is the other individual that's used to maybe a defensive, reactive sort of negative engagement or passive, even when they're thinking, well, what's going on with this person? So that actually is agitating their insecurities and your, just by your development of self is activating their insecurities of like, what are you trying to do?
What are you doing or saying? And they may not even. address you in that manner.
Tim: Yeah.
Liz: But it's something else. And that's when it gets difficult for the person in the process of growth and working with individuals on this thing. It feels uncomfortable because as I start to engage differently, I get resistance, emotional resistance, energy resistance.
And everyone's like, well, I'd rather just go back to the way it was [00:25:00] because it felt a little bit better. Being able to, That's the push through part. That's what I tell everybody. You got to really, it's like, I always, any of my clients are listening. I always say you have to kind of walk through quicksand and it's like trying to pull you down.
And it's you know, generational patterns, belief systems, ideas, situations. I mean, I could go on, but it's like, I have to keep moving, even though this is really uncomfortable. And that's what I'm hoping our listeners kind of take away is like, as I.
I'm not, you know, you're your own individual, believe it or not, and you start collection of myself, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I get to look at all my parts of me and maybe parts that I have pushed outside of me for such a period of time for the benefit of others and the loss of self.
I share with people that they unintentionally negotiate themselves out of a room when they sit there quiet or they [00:26:00] sit there non engaging.
Tim: You gave that up.
Liz: Yeah, you gave up yourself and it is so mentally impairing to feel like you're just, you know, there's nothing worse than sitting in something that you're just like, man, if I could just say, you know, or I could just walk away.
It's not necessarily about verbal engagement.
Tim: Yeah.
Liz: But if I walk out of the room, they're going to be like, Oh, you know, they're thinking you're giving them so much in an individual, the other person, the other party, so much power over you as to what they're thinking or saying of you.
Tim: Yeah. I heard a really cute phrase from a client of mine who's before losing her husband, they'd been married for 50 some years and both of them very, very fond and very loving, but two different types.
And The notion between the two of them is I love you forever, but not till lunch. And that is, I love everything about you. But I can't, we can't, we're not going to sit around and talk about politics. I want to go do things and be active and have purpose and you're [00:27:00] more interested in the household things, the family, you know, how that division is what brings you together and that's what makes the whole more, more valuable, right?
And that's an important thing. I, I can't help but tell you that the generational divide between where we are now versus the way we were. Has to do with the way we were raised and accept the acceptance, the accountability, the responsibility. All those things are lost and hopefully retrieved.
Yeah. But we need to figure out simply who's going to shoulder this responsibility? Who needs help in this responsibility? And you don't just abandon it. I, I, I frequently say that 85 percent of all the men in the world, they go out and make a paycheck and they sign it and give it over to their wife and the wife takes care of that.
And the man lives this almost ignorant, bliss free life of, you know, the bill didn't get paid, why not? Well, it's because you went out and bought new snow tires. They just don't know the inner workings of the [00:28:00] budgetary things. But the whole point is, is that they don't have a choice to be individuals.
On islands amongst them, they have to share. And believe me, when those men get together with men, they'll talk about their wives. Just like women get together and they'll talk about Absolutely. But they have, they have that sanctuary. Right. That they can come back and be, right? And believe me, they're going to bring back all the scuttlebutt, they're going to bring back all the gossip, they're going to bring But they have a chance to be their own individual people.
together, which is really, makes a really strong relationship, but also that they seek out people who are like minded, but they're not trying to rule you. That collective mentality is more of family and friends and the people who really want to do really well for you. Well, in a collective mentality, that's not true.
You have a bunch of voices, and you're gonna probably listen to the ones the loudest or the most threatening to you, [00:29:00] right?
Liz: Right, most definitely, and the One that you have provided a lot of fuel and power over you and maybe at your, to a disadvantage to sell. Right. Yeah. That we, the roles that we hold aren't valued in the same capacity anymore as far as mothers and fathers and grandparents and those adult roles for adolescents.
We all, I'm sure, have seen appalling behavior of adolescents or young adults talking to older. Oh,
Tim: the disrespect. It's,
Liz: It's appalling.
Tim: It's
Liz: unimaginable. I would have no teeth in my mouth. Yeah. it was just by the way, by In saying that, like, I wasn't raised in an abusive home. Like, it was the idea.
Like, it was just, you know, they had the looks, they had, you just, you just knew your lane.
Tim: I [00:30:00] specifically and very carefully use that word respect. My dad, raised a family of seven. And in a house full of boys, there has to be control. There has to be the hierarchy.
There has to be somebody at the top, because if we're all clamoring to the top, who's going to be, how does the day run, that person, captain of the ship, has to make those decisions, keep us safe, and to raise and foster the idea within young men that they can go on and be really good men.
And you're right we wouldn't lose our teeth, it was physical training in our house, because my dad was a 32 year command sergeant major. You did push ups, and is it punishment? Somewhat. But it's also this, let me just show you a little bit about discipline. This is the price you're going to pay.
You want to talk to me like that? Fine. You're going to give something up. It's probably going to be effort. Because we need to take a little starch out. And if you can't become more understanding of why [00:31:00] I'm doing this, then you're missing the big point. It's not, it's not necessarily, there is punishment, don't get me wrong, but it's constructive punishment.
Let's make you physically strong so you don't feel like you're weak. And maybe that will help you. Sure. Martial arts takes you through a process where you know nothing, are weak. are probably in the victimhood mentality, and you were raised through the ranks because your expertise and ability to control yourself and protect yourself raises to a level which raises your confidence, and I no longer seek conflict.
Right. We're taught not to conflict. Let's resolve this. I'll walk away. I'll be the lesser man in this argument so that we don't have to. Let me buy you a beer. Sure. And if that doesn't happen, then, But the whole idea behind that is I'm not going to be listening to, I always call it the third man deep, in a mob.
Liz: Oh yes.
Tim: I use this analogy a lot, in mob mentality. Because I faced down a mob once in Sydney, Australia, all by [00:32:00] myself. And all of these peaceful demonstrators, they're all doing their job. But as the forces from the back continue to push, the people in the front are pushed. And they keep encroaching, and encroaching, and it's not the first guy, it's not the second guy, it's the third guy in back said, Hit him, hit him, throw something at him, do something, we need to burn this thing, whatever.
It's always this coward, three men deep, and if he could just jerk that guy out of the crowd. He would shut up, because now he's, he's not protected by all his buddies. He now faces the physical threat that he's asking all of you guys to take. And guess what? If the first row died off, he'd step back another row, and he'd still be yelling.
That's what happens in crowd mentalities. That's the dangerous side of collective mentality.
Liz: Right. That's a perfect example of
Tim: that.
Liz: I pulled this up because I had, I told you I was taking notes the other day and I had written this down and I thought I wanted to share it with you and the listeners, obviously.
I [00:33:00] had written the concerns I'm seeing in society are that we've created a dependent society upon our value of self in the opinion of others and how we are seen in or acknowledged or appreciated for that matter. To a point of abandoning ourselves to the view of someone else, which breeds depression and anxiety, which we're seeing rampant.
I wrote, I think we all need to stop acting like Janet Jackson in what have you done for me lately versus what have you done for you lately? And the issue that I think people have in this kind of language that I'm using is it sounds all quite very selfish. of an individual perspective and walking in your own light.
And we're accused of it. Yeah. You are so selfish. You're not considering this person or that view or this group or, and it's saying, you're sharing that I am inconsiderate or I am selfish, but are you asking me questions about it?
Tim: Yes.
Liz: Or [00:34:00] assuming I'm, I'm being selfish. And most of the time it's, well, you've made a statement.
Tim: Two points of that, Liz, that we had talked about in the past. I always hear, I don't like this, I don't want this, I don't want, they'll, they'll, they're willing to throw at you all the things, I don't believe that, that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. But if I ask you, what do you believe in? They have zero input, because nobody's asked them, what, they've even asked themselves, what do I really believe in?
So, The hard lesson to learn there is that you are an empty vessel. And that if it all, if you really are that malleable by the pressures around you, you're dangerously weak. You're probably susceptible to any influence.
Just, you'll make bad medical decisions, you'll make bad financial decisions, and you're, honestly going to be having your hand out. And yelling at the same time, right? [00:35:00] When you stick your hand out and somebody gives you ten dollars, it's not, it's, why isn't it twenty? And this ungratefulness is really damaging.
It's harmful to not just you, but the person who receives that message is, all right, I won't give it all. I'm not just punishing you. I'm pulling back from the whole world. And that can, that collectiveness doesn't just damage you. It damages a whole circle of people. It's sad. It really is sad.
Liz: Well, and when I hear you say that all I feel is empathy for individuals because. We are all collectively, or individually I should say, created from our environments and our family systems and our belief systems. When you're engaging someone, are they able to receive you in this interaction?
Do they have the skill set? And this isn't about intellect. This is about some emotional awareness and opening vulnerability up here. Can you really receive, can you [00:36:00] authentically hear me with this? This general engagement that I really want to have an open conversation. Can you receive me? And sometimes people do not have the skill set to receive people.
Because of wounds that have never been addressed with itself. And I will always be defensive. Because this person wounded me and then 20 other people did the same thing in a different way. And that is a very deep wound that I have never addressed.
And now when anything, there's terminology you know, Body language, anything, any kind of engagement that reacts that in me, that gets that life set up, I go to this very rigid place or, or even just a very guarded place. And I, I've become either sometimes in a victim mentality. I cautiously say that, but I'm going to have to either shrink back and [00:37:00] be quiet because I know what happens next or be reactive and be aggressive.
And neither one are giving any clarity to the situation. You're just operating. And I tell people you're operating in a wounded position and you're not in a healed mentality.
Tim: Because my dad was a career military man and he is very much my best friend. We have the opportunity to speak about stuff and I one time brought to my dad's attention that the military is a wonderful place for young men to foster discipline and to learn a trade and to be a part of something bigger than them.
I think it's a wonderful experience. I really think everybody in this country, of my own opinion, should serve time serving their country. John F. Kennedy asked what, don't ask what the country can do for you, what can you do for your country? I think that's a small contribution. But the point I wanted to make to my father was, is that it very much is an institution.
And it can very much teach you that I get up on time, I have my food [00:38:00] on time, I get paid on time, I wear this uniform and all that. And it can really just kind of put you into a cookie cutter mold. And it's a great way to have a career, it is, but when you get out, you have to now adapt to people around you who do not have that discipline, that don't even understand that discipline.
Liz: There you go.
Tim: Very
Liz: perfect example. The
Tim: point I wanted to make about all of that to my father was, when my dad first got out, now my dad is a very physical, and he's rather imposing because he has, This build and this intensity about him that when he speaks to you, he's speaking at you. When he has a question, he's speaking to you.
And that can be misinterpreted. So, as my dad has aged, I point out to this simple fact that your perspective of life is the only view you have. And I need you to take off that hat you've worn for 30 years and go, they don't work for you. They're not your subordinates. Thank you. You're one of them, [00:39:00] and you need to dial it down, dial it back, and it took, it took my dad a long time.
Liz: Yeah, of course it did. That's rewiring the brain, absolutely.
Tim: You're a career military guy you know, it takes a long time to dial back. It's, much to my dad's credit, he's been able to do that. He's a wonderful man. Some can't, some won't.
Liz: Well, right, I'm encouraged because if you were able to share that with your father and He was able to receive that and say, well, maybe it stings.
It kind of maybe feels a little uncomfortable to hear, but maybe there's some truth there that I do operate from, you know, a very structured position and that isn't the same environment I'm in now. And I have to reevaluate that and do something different. And I don't know what that looks like, but I'm willing to at least reflect in it and try and build something else out of it and start engaging.
Which brings
Tim: me then to the second point I wanted to make. And that is. Listen, I, Liz, you and I both have, possess this, the ability [00:40:00] to, I'm going to say something to you. It's, maybe it's something that continues to, brew up in our conversation or some topic that we each get a little prickly on or I don't really feel like we're getting to the root of this.
But, in our relationships that we have, between you and I and people around us, I am constantly telling myself, if I feel like I'm not going to be well understood, Taken, or even that my intentions are good, I preface myself, that happened with my father. And that is, you know, Dad, I just want to tell you something about, this is what I've noticed in life, or this is how I notice when people react to you.
And I, I'm not sugarcoating, but I'm preparing him for something that, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but I'm just going to make you aware of this. I'm not attacking you. This is how it is. You could go your whole life and never know this and maybe never care. But perhaps, if we're holding each other responsible and accountable, especially for Christian men, would [00:41:00] say, you know, I noticed that you do this, and that people get a little upset about it.
And I said, have you thought to yourself for just one moment, is there a better way to do that? And most importantly, are you right? Because rarely are we 100 percent right. Surely we're missing something in a quality that we could probably soften. Or I don't even have the answer to that. But if there's something we can improve, that's what we should be trying to do, is improve.
Liz: So we're talking about two things here, and I want to clarify that for a minute. Because when I hear that, I want individual, or listeners to hear that, well now you're talking about taking someone else's insight on you. Yes, at times. If someone is challenging you to look within self, not to look onto their opinion, but for you to look within self.
And that differentiation is kind of tricky because you have to develop that. Some people, most people were not taught this, but this is all a lot of new information that's come down for the last few decades. And it may
Tim: well be interpreted as an attack.
Liz: Right.
Tim: Yeah.
Liz: But I'm talking [00:42:00] about that individual perspective.
When I hear that insight, can I take that in and develop self there a little bit on my own understanding of who I
Tim: am?
Liz: And it's a
Tim: great point.
Liz: Then I can say, you know, I do feel a little misunderstood here or misheard. And we have to get to a point at, at some place, I don't know, societal or, you know, relational that, you know, You may never be heard the way you want to be heard.
Tim: And
Liz: the more you yell it, the more you are aggressive with it and, you know, grandstand on social media or whatever else. And you're like, I'm going to drive my point home and then never get that validation. You're living a pretty miserable existence.
Tim: Definitely lonely one.
Liz: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And it's so unfair to yourself to do that. Don't do that. That's like don't do that. Stop it. Like, oh, what is it? This is a funny one for [00:43:00] psychotherapists. The Bob Newhart one. When the client comes in and he keeps saying, Stop it! Because they are saying what's going on and he's just like, Just stop it!
Well obviously it doesn't work like that, but it's a funny little idea that if we could just stop it and That is a little a thorn in my side when people are like, well don't think that way, don't talk that way, just stop doing it. Well that is not how our brain has ever been created or put together. So when I talk about generational belief systems and understandings of yourself, that is a wiring, a neurological wiring of your brain.
And so to just stop it, quotation marks, you can't see Is not possible.
Tim: Yeah.
Liz: You literally have to make a new neurological feedback in your brain to think and believe and walk and talk differently. Yeah, so when I said to you earlier Of course, it took a while for your dad, but the fact that he took in some information and started recalibrating Yeah, internally.
Yeah and saying hey, all right. Let me look at this. [00:44:00] Ideally from his self perspective moved in that fashion. Yeah.
Tim: Yeah, and Again it's not necessarily he has to It has to change, but don't beat that drum so hard. Right. Maybe just make a point and move on. I've seen that from the pulpit, and it's I think that it becomes a bit of a joke, especially among Christian men, especially my affiliation, is people who continue to sin.
They continue, they, you know, you just got yourself out of that trash and now you're rolling around in it again. They'll always go, don't do that. Okay, well, gosh, if I could just stop doing that, I would have a long time ago.
Liz: This expands right into food and everything.
Tim: Absolutely. It's a big one. That's another big one.
Every one of our, you know, every one of the vices we may interpret as vice is, There's a circle over there that says it's just fine, right? Liz, if I haven't explained, I do part time work at a casino. And my part time work, it is a [00:45:00] psychologic zoo. And I love it, right? Because I see so many. But there are people who absolutely love it.
And they have a handle on it. There are people who come in there and that is the last place they can be. And when you see them walking through the door, you're like, ugh. Yup. Because I guarantee you, they will, they're not paying something they should be paying. And that went into that machine, and they didn't get it, and now they're out there kicking rocks.
And it's, it's tragic to see a couple come in, and they're all loving, and she's sitting on his lap, and they're gambling together, but they don't leave that way. They don't leave that way at all.
Liz: And it's hard.
You're all searching for validation. We're all broken.
Tim: I've said that a million times.
Liz: We're searching for validation. We're searching for comfort and love and tenderness and kindness. I just shared that with very close friend of mine. And I said, this person engages you at the capacity of what they have for you.
Tim: And,
Liz: Offering grace and consideration and [00:46:00] empathy to that is really hard when you're the one being wounded by their actions and being aware of that is everything. It's not scapegoating them to say, well, you know, they just didn't understand. So it's okay. Which is a societal push. No, that's not okay.
It's with the information I have now. I know. This is how this person engages in talks and loves, if you will. I get to determine how I reciprocate now. It's going to look different for me because I have to safeguard myself a little bit and know How to engage with that person now. And that's the expansion of going right back to what we're talking about of self.
It's really, really hard to make those defined lines because it makes you feel sometimes cruel or mean or cold. Like I told you, I get accused of being cold a lot, which is fine. I mean, I know me, I know I'm not cold. I know I'm not those things. The representation of that, if anyone were to share, Hey Liz, I felt [00:47:00] like that landed a little, you know, icy.
Oh my goodness, thanks for letting me know. I'm like, I will take the opportunity to share that wasn't my intention. And I will be happy to repair that misunderstanding. Yeah. See, and I think that's just it. It's just a misunderstanding. Yeah, and I'm not oh my goodness I'm so sorry. I always do this.
I apologize. I know I'm you know, I didn't fall over my own apologies, right? Because then I'm really apologizing for myself when I'm like, but you never really meant it to be that way Why are you apologizing for a misunderstanding? You're apologizing your whole self for a misunderstanding,
Tim: right?
Liz: And that's kind of bringing this back into focus, what we're talking about is it's a scary, fearful, we'll put it that way, kind of thought that we're talking about.
You're saying, you know, look in myself and rule from my own self perspective. And I may not even know what that is. A lot of us. We weren't taught about ourselves, [00:48:00] like we, that from the beginning of time, I can remember. And I'm sure individuals listening be kind to others, be nice, use your manners.
Did you, you know, it's always in the service of others, right? And I was raised in a very strict Christian upbringing and it was always in service of God and to others. I don't think we ever talked about ourselves unless you were a dying heathen, which was most of the time. But I mean, other than that, it was always in service to others.
Now what I've done and I've had the opportunity to grow and learn. Both spiritually and as just a person in my field, that is not at all. You have to consider yourself. You are absolutely worth something. You're important. You're valuable. Your insight, your outlook, all of those things are very, very important.
And the fact that we just disregard that is unfortunate.
Tim: You've heard me say it. I've said it to you. And as a caregiver, you're no good when you're broken. You're no good. You have [00:49:00] to be able to be strong enough to have your own ideas and be able to convey those ideas. And if you fall on your face, try again.
If somebody got bristled by it, you can always go back and say, I said something to you the other day. I want to make sure that if they're cool, great. If they need more clarification, great. Do it. Tools. You need to seek out good mentorship. You need to, you need to seek out people who are able to live lives where they just seem very stable.
And as you explore more and more of their lives and their friendship or relationship develops, you need to follow their path. And the very best way that's ideally unique to you from them, but the A thing I want to say about the way that we were raised generationally. Our mothers will always be there to hold us.
Right, you played football, and you're the littlest guy, and you always got wiped out, but your mom would hold you, and that's okay honey, you [00:50:00] can do anything. And then, after six years of this, You go run into your dad, and your dad's probably gonna go, Maybe football's not for you. Right? Now that isn't I don't think we do that anymore.
You're right. We don't do that enough. There's something you're gonna suck at. And you're not built You know, I'm 5'5 the NBA is not calling for me. I gave up that dream a long time ago. But The whole point is, you can have dreams and I don't want to spin off on too much, but be realistic about it.
And that's, that's what I want is a return to sanity. And, that return to sanity is you. We're all individual people, and we can come together and be Yeah, we matter. We matter as a nation, we matter as a community, we matter as a family. Being the grumpy old man on the end of the block, he's probably more misunderstood than being wrong.
Liz: Which is what I was sharing earlier. It's 90 percent probably misunderstandings. Right. [00:51:00] And if we can just learn to critically think more in a little less emotional response. I know everything is very emotional nowadays and just having a gauge on that why I always have individuals think, why does this bother me so much?
So I use this a lot and then we're wrapping up here. I just want to say my closing thoughts are this. So we've had a lot of conversation today about this. My encouragement to listeners is that you become an investigator of self. So what I mean by that is when things start landing on me, first off, there is so much science to pen and paper.
I literally have that you as well, and how we retain knowledge and how we, we grow, we're, we're not utilizing that enough with our technology, but Man, this happened at work the other day and it really kind of bothered me and I don't even know why. I was like, what is, you know, what kind of crawled up my rear?
Write it down and it's not about brooding over it. It's [00:52:00] about reflection of it. What is it about this encounter that bothered me? Did I have a bad lunch? I mean, couldn't be something small. If it's impacting me enough, then I have to start looking at it and saying, all right, this is a repetitive thing that's now formulating something within me.
And I've got to kind of see and resolve because I'm in charge of resolving that. No one else is. And so self accountability, right? I'm in charge of resolving that, versus this guy every day comes in and does this, okay, fair enough, that could happen, however, I'm only responsible for me, I can, you know, I have to look at my actions in this, and so, become an investigator of self, and I thoroughly encourage everyone to utilize psychotherapy and grow within self.
Pay attention to where you get your feedback from, who's encouraging you, what are they encouraging you, do they ask you what you think about you, which is a real strange thing, I mean, I'd, I'd ask you to consider that very same thing, when's the [00:53:00] last person that's a pretty, high valued person in my life has said to me, what do you think about it, not what do I just think about it, what do you think about it.
That might, spur some thoughts there too.
Tim: That's good. That's very good advice. I like that. What's the old, there's an acronym, I think it's HART. Are you hungry? Are you angry? Something and you're tired. I can't remember. When's the last time you ate a meal?
Right! I mean, I agree. And if you're, if you're, what we know is, you know, bodybuilders and athletes, when you're on a diet, you're not the freshest person in the world. It's usually because you're cutting calories and you've got some regime that makes you a little edgy and you're tired.
You're physically tired. So, If something's just been, everybody's in a bad mood, really? Everybody? Or is it just you? Because we always talk about a favorite scene from a movie called Sharky's Machine, where this guy gets in a shootout, and then the guy stops shooting at him. And he said, well, how did you survive that?
He said, I just pulled my antenna inside my bubble. Really, literally, if you've ever walked through a crowd, there's times you can glide through a crowd [00:54:00] and not bump a shoulder. And then there's another time, you can't get past a single person. Somewhere, you lost your bubble. And it, you gotta figure out how you're I like that.
We do
Liz: need to find a bubble.
Tim: Yeah, you gotta figure out how you're, you gotta figure out how you're, how you're working and interacting in your bubble with other people. If there's something that's going on and you know it's gonna be Really controversial or something's going to rub up against you.
You put an antenna in and just remain quiet and things can bounce off. But if you feel like you need to get involved then let them know that you're there and let them know. But be ready because everything we say has some kind of, it's probably going to have some type of return either now or later.
You need to have that rapport.
Liz: So I would say consider yourself. Give yourself some compassion, grace. We are the worst on ourselves and what feedback we have looping within us of negativity, we are generally assassinating ourselves at every second.
And be kind to yourself, just kind of give yourself some compassion and [00:55:00] no one's perfect. Sometimes we say the wrong things and we're misunderstood. And yeah. I know we kind of are in a society that really takes you down when you make a mistake and just knowing I, I just make mistakes and I'm not trying to, you know, not accept that I made a mistake.
I made a mistake, but you harassing me 25 times over it. No, I'll pass.
Tim: And, and I will touch on it one more time, and we've done this plenty of time, Liz, is that if I say something and a couple days later I'll go, maybe I, I'll actually ask you, when I said something to you the other day, how did you take that?
Clarify, because they might be going, you know what, I didn't like when you said that. And that, okay, well let's talk about that. Because I didn't, I certainly didn't mean it. And to clarify those things, those are how we bubble out what's called the dross. All of the crap floats to the top when you're making pure metals, and you scrape that off and now we have something more pure, right?
And that's the idea, is to try to remove all that stuff that's contaminating our metals. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. This is a good topic, Liz. We could [00:56:00] probably talk more.
Liz: We will always go into this more. This is an evolving conversation. I just wanted to provide listeners, especially I think this is another great episode that to kind of hang in your mind as you're moving through the end of this year with the family and friend involvement with the holidays, but There is no better time to start looking at yourself than now.
Tim: Absolutely, and I want to end it more with the tagline I've always had, and that's take care of yourself. And when I say take care of yourself, I mean it. You're, it's not just you in this world, there's other people depending on you. And if you're a caregiver, it's so important that you take care of you.
But we're all caregivers, essentially. And be nice to the people that might be taking care of you. We're going to think about that, right?
Liz: All right. Thanks everyone. I appreciate you guys listening. Always please go in and look at our social media Facebook and Instagram and like, and maybe put some comments out there we are in the process of rebuilding anchored in chaos.
org. So, I will let everyone know when that is back live [00:57:00] in working where you can also go there and write reviews as well.
Thanks everyone.
Tim: Bye guys.