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Bill DeSimone, Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints.
Doug Brignole Million Dollar Muscle: A Historical and Sociological Perspective of the Fitness Industry.
Adam Zickerman, Power of Ten - The Once-A-Week, Slow Motion Fitness Revolution
Now listened to in 100 countries, The InForm Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman is a presentation of InForm Fitness Studios, specializing in safe, efficient, High Intensity strength training.
Adam discusses the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific-based, up-to-the-minute information on a variety of subjects. The topics covered include exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more.
42 Comparing and Contrasting Congruent Exercise Methodologie...
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
muscle, exercise, joint, compound movements, people, doug, lever, point, resistance, squat, abdominals, weight, moving, tricep, talking, bodybuilder, arm, podcast, stabilizing, movement
SPEAKERS
Tim Edwards, Mike, Doug Brignole, Adam, Bill DeSimone
Adam 00:05
I know it sounds like we're disagreeing with everything Doug has said on the last interview, you know, we agree 90% We're on the same page. I mean, the idea of paying attention to the biomechanics, protecting the joints, using a speed that safe trying to use little momentum as possible. Understanding that, you know, we're trying to get stronger. We're not trying to become a boxer or an athlete, you know, I mean, his idea his approach to general fitness and exercise. We're a lot closer in agreement than we are in disagreement, I would say.
Tim Edwards 00:43
Hello, and welcome to the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Now here in Episode 42, we are welcoming back our guest from Episode 20. Bill De Simone. As you might remember, Bill is a personal trainer himself and the author of the book congruent exercise, how to make weight training easier on your joints. So the reason we invited Bill back to join us is to discuss episode 36. That was released a couple of months ago featuring bodybuilder Doug Brignole. Doug too is an author and his book is titled million dollar muscle, a historical and sociological perspective of the fitness industry. Today, Bill, Adam and Mike will be comparing and contrasting their different methodologies and philosophies regarding weight training with that of Doug's. Interestingly, though, over the past 41 episodes, Doug and Bill's episodes are our top two and most downloaded episodes of the inform fitness podcast, I have a feeling that this one just made surpass both of them.
Adam 01:51
Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad to be doing this episode right now, because it brings up a point about the whole idea of of our podcast in the first place, which is that I don't want our podcast to be one big advertisement for inform fitness and my business and our one way of thinking, I want to really educate, I want to bring up the points. And the things that in exercise that are important to talk about. And to try to figure out there are still a lot of questions exercise that we don't have answers to. So I like to bring in other opinions that aren't necessarily of my own. And when we had Doug Brignole, on the bodybuilder a couple weeks ago, a lot of people first of all was one of our most downloaded episodes, people love that episode. However, the people that know me and my philosophy and been listening to all the other episodes have said, you know, Adam, did you actually agree with everything Doug was saying, I mean, he seemed to have contradicted you and a couple of points there. What's with that, because again, people are perceiving this podcast is just one maybe one big advertisement for my philosophy. And we don't know everything. And there are big questions out there. And what I wanted to do now and I wanted to, I want to bring Bill DeSimone back, because he also did a biomechanics episode with me. And that was also one of the most downloaded episodes. So obviously, we're hitting a nerve on this subject. And I'm doing this not necessarily, to show that Doug was wrong, per se. But I'm doing this because I want to point out that everything we're doing, Bill, Doug, myself, we're trying to figure things out, we're still trying to figure things out, as we safely apply exercise to our clients and give them what they're looking for. So let's start with one of the subjects that Doug and I had talked about, which was this idea of compound movements versus isolation movements and the virtues of both. And so so why don't we start with that?
Doug Brignole 03:49
Yeah, as you said, a compound movement is a multi joint multi muscle movement that some people refer to as functional, which is absurd, because it suggests that something that isn't compound is dysfunctional. Right. But that would almost suggest that if you do isolation exercises, somehow your body isn't going to be able to coordinate all of its various muscle strains at the same time. It's absurd. I mean, yes, it's true that if you're doing Dead Hang cleans, you get skilled at doing Dead Hang cleans, right. So that doesn't necessarily mean that you can cross that over into something that doesn't look anything like a dead hang clean, just means you're learning the skill, you're going to coordinate all of the muscles that participate in that movement in a particular event. But the idea that, that it's a compound movement will then make you better able to use those participating muscles as as compared to isolation exercises, has no logic in whatsoever,
Adam 04:48
you know, you agree with that for the most part, right?
Bill DeSimone 04:51
You know, when he says compound movements, though I'm not sure if he's referring to the circus tricks people do. In the name of functional exercise, you know, combining a squat or,
Adam 05:05
I think what he's really talking about is just your real basic compound move his leg press chest press, I would say pull down, compared to leg extension, leg curl, hip, hip extension, bicep curl, bicep curl.
Bill DeSimone 05:23
I'm not really sure where he's going with that, because, like, what's the context for this? I mean, who is claiming that compound movements are you know better or making you more coordinated
Adam 05:35
his his whole point is compound movements are inefficient.
Bill DeSimone 05:38
If I compound movements we're talking about
Adam 05:40
he's basically saying function or compound moves are considered like functional movements, and that you need to do compound movements, because it helps the muscles work together. It the muscles learn to work together in a compound movement. And the argument is that if you're only doing isolation movements or doing isolation where you're not, your muscles aren't learning to work together.
Bill DeSimone 05:58
Well, the first the first problem, though, is there is no muscle isolation. You're isolating a joint, okay? But no matter how much you think there's an isolation happen, it's more like emphasis, because other muscles are helping stabilize, and they're assisting even in a single joint movement. So there's no real isolation.
Adam 06:20
He's really everything he's talking about, as you know, because you listen to the whole thing. Everything he's talking about is really about muscle development. hypertrophy. Efficiency, right? So getting Max.
Bill DeSimone 06:34
That's really the context. Always. It's what's done. I bodybuilding and muscle develop, too, right?
Adam 06:39
Yeah, right? We are? I mean, yes, we do, too. That's where some of the disconnect is. I mean, like, again, his argument is that compound movements aren't going to be as beneficial for muscular development, because you're on a squat, for example, you know, a lot of the quadriceps are not going to get the full amount of that load, they're going to get 30% of that load on. So is the quads are going to get 30% of that load based on direction and the forces, you know, the force going through to tibia to the floor.
Bill DeSimone 07:11
Let's let's talk about that, then. Because Because in that case, I don't agree with it at all.
Adam 07:15
Well, that's, well he that's, that's Tim go to three, can you go to three
Tim Edwards 07:19
I can
Doug Brignole 07:20
like a lamppost is vertical, because a lamppost is vertical the gravity. And so it's balanced over its base. But if you tried to anchor that lamppost at a 45 degree angle, you have to bolt it down to the ground with a lot more force a lot more bolts, because now it wants to fall. Okay, so a lever that is parallel to gravity, or whatever resistance is going to be a zero, neutral lever, and one that is perpendicular to gravity, or whatever you happen to be using for resistance is going to be what I call a 100%, lever, a maximally active lever. So when you look at a squat, and you realize that the lower leg is the operating lever of the quadricep, and you realize it doesn't even reach a 45 degree angle, you say, Well, it's actually closer to neutral than it is to fully active
08:11
enough. Now look, identifying the Levers is is half the discussion. Alright, so when when the femur for instance, is horizontal, in a bottom of a squat, that is where the resistance is working through its biggest lever, but that's only half the story because where that hits in the muscle torque curve is also important. So when you go from standing in a squat with a zero resistance moment arm, and so no work to oppose, and now you squat down to where your femur is horizontal and you have a maximum resistance moment arm
Adam 08:49
for the for the hip extensors not Not, not the knee extensors.
08:53
That's not what it's a both. It's a both. I mean, it's, it's murky, because it's not as clean a look as in a single joint. But when your femur is horizontal in a squat,
Adam 09:07
and the weight it's going down perpendicular to it.
Bill DeSimone 09:10
Yeah, the weight is going down somewhat in the middle of the femur,
Adam 09:14
yeah, slight. In other words, shoulders if it's on your shoulders, and you're bending
Bill DeSimone 09:17
Yes, let's let's paint the a lot of this stuff works better and diagrams and print. But to paint the picture, there's a barbell on your back, when you're standing upright, that the line of that weight is going through all of your joints. So there's no lever created for the weight to for you to work against
Adam 09:37
right
Bill DeSimone 09:37
as far as the weights concerned. And now as you descend, and your femur goes horizontal and your torso leans forward a bit. your center of gravity is splitting the femur horizontally. So that is the biggest resistance moment arm for both the glutes and the quads. So that's mechanically hardest part of the squat, the sinking point. But it also happens to be very close to the joint angles for peak muscle torque for both the quads and the glutes,
Adam 10:09
where that is where the muscles are, can generate the most power, their most power, the most strength,
Bill DeSimone 10:15
right see, the more visible lever is the one that the resistance works through. But internally, depending on where you are in a joint, in the joints range, you have varying degrees of muscle torque. So identifying the lever is half of it, but knowing that it hits at the right point in the muscle strength is the other half. Now, something like a barbell squat, leaving other joint concerns out of it, if you don't lock out at the top, and you don't bottom out, if you go from that almost locked out to the femur being horizontal, almost. Or approximately horizontal, your effort, your effort feels very even, there's no sticking point, there's no lockout. Alright, so that makes an efficient exercise. So there's no place to rest, there's no place for the muscle to hide. So it's not necessarily less efficient than a leg extension.
Adam 11:12
Gotcha.
Bill DeSimone 11:13
Since you can't lock out the leg extension, it's very obvious and your quads are burning, say by the first rep or two, it's very obvious how efficient that is, you make a little tweak to a squat or a leg press and it's just as efficient. Where it gets inefficient is when you lock out or you bought them out. So just like you wouldn't rest the weight stack on lay extension to take a break to do another repetition. If you don't lock out in the in the squat or the leg press, you're not giving yourself that rest. So as far as which is more more efficient, you know, you could make the argument that the squats more efficient because you're also working the glutes at the same time,
Adam 11:53
you're also performing at their appropriately at their muscle torque at the right time.
Bill DeSimone 11:59
Right now that's putting aside all the other joint issues with those exercises
Adam 12:04
like lower back
Bill DeSimone 12:05
like the lower back, but but also the knee and the knee and the leg extension. So I mean, my approach to compound versus, or multiple multi joint versus single joint movements is both you need to be aware of the vulnerable joint positions in both of them. So to me the issue is, which is the easier workaround, and that might be different based on your your client. I know if I personally barbell squat, my back's gonna bother me. Even though I know what ranges I want to stay in. So to me, the easier workaround is just go to the leg press. But for somebody who has the technique down of a barbell squat, or you know, and if their back can handle it, if they're staying well, within their their margin of error, maybe it works for them, which is a little bit different than, you know, trying to correlate like a hang clean or any of these more explosive movements and try to relate that to to a wellness program. In that terms, I agree with him completely. There's no, there's no reason for people to be doing ballistic type stuff, unless that's your sport, you know, unless your sport is Olympic lifting, and you have to learn how to clean
Mike 13:15
I guess, you know, something, you know, we're talking about, like, I, you know, Adam sort of mentioned numbers, and Doug talked about it in his in the podcast also about percentages. And like, you know, I guess it's hard, it's difficult to discuss how what percentage of the quadriceps are being recruited when you do a squat versus the percentage of the quadricep when you're doing the leg extension? Like 90% versus 60%, that type of thing? And I guess, you know, like, I mean, Doug comes from a bodybuilding background, are his arguments more appropriate for that type of setting? And let's just say like he is right, and the leg extension is much more efficient than like a like our simple movement is made more efficient than a compound movement. Does it matter anyway for like muscle development for general fitness anyway?
Bill DeSimone 14:05
And they and there's and there's a real question, why is the person working out so in other words, if someone's in a in a wellness mindset, in other words, they want to work out so that they get through the physical parts of their day better and their joints don't hurt. And maybe they fit the clothes better, and they look more toned. There's no need for them to take a bodybuilders approach to you know, I have to get this muscle as bunched up as possible. But also, there's no need for that person, say our client to put their joints at any more risk than they need to. So if someone wants to be a power lifter or wants to be a bodybuilder, and they're convinced that the barbell squat is the greatest thing they can do for themselves, you're probably not going to convince them not to. But there's probably no reason for somebody who doesn't have any ambitions in the barbell squat, to subject the rest of their joints that type of risk.
Adam 14:59
Understood I agree
Bill DeSimone 15:00
you know, some of the content of your last podcast. So a lot of it has to do with the context. So he's obviously from the bodybuilding world. And what he sees going on in bodybuilding gyms are probably much different from my context. Whereas I'm in a studio like you guys. So I'm not really exposed to a lot of the trendier parts of the fitness industry to react against, I can just look at a technique or an exercise and figure out if it's useful and use it or not, I'm not seeing it every day. For instance, in my studio, though, he's doing a dead hang clean anyway. So you know, you know, we have a little different context for the for the comment,
Mike 15:37
I think, like I think sometimes exercise programs, you know, we think about it. And I think sometimes where we might be thrown into that category, sometimes, too, because we want to see our clients progress and be able to do more, you know, it shows them that they're getting stronger if they lift 50 pounds, and then 60 pounds, and then 80 pounds and so on. Is that an appropriate goal for a general exercise program to just be able to get the maximum out of whatever your muscle can do? You know, and how much do you want to balance that with, you know, what the joint may or may not be able to do? You know, and how far do you want to test it? I guess, in a way?
Bill DeSimone 16:18
Well, I mean, I would say protecting the joint is is number one, but then again, that's my that is my thing.
Adam 16:25
And I would say most of our listeners are of that ilk. I mean, there were not I don't think too many body builders are listening to this. These podcast episodes,
Bill DeSimone 16:34
probably not right, right.
Adam 16:36
Unless some of Doug's friends tuned into that interview.
Mike 16:41
He got a lot of people to listen to him.
Adam 16:42
Yes, he did. So along the same lines, I like to kind of have you comment on this? Because I think I think the answer is the same when he talks about tricep pushdowns. Versus dips. So can you play that clip? Tim
Doug Brignole 16:56
getting back to what we were talking about before about parallel levers versus perpendicular numbers, when you see someone doing a bench dip, or a parallel bar dip, and you notice that their forearm is almost vertical? It only breaks from the neutral vertical position by about 11 degrees,
Adam 17:14
which is it, which means
Doug Brignole 17:18
you're only getting about 11%. Right? Right. So here's the math I do on that, as I say if you're 180 pound guy, and you want to figure out how much load each tricep is going to get. You say okay, I'm 180 pounds, I'm going to divide that by two arms, that's 90, the length of your forearm is about a 12 to one ratio, so you have a magnification of 12. So you see 90 times 12 times 11% active lever gives you about 119 pounds of load per tricep, at a cost of 180 pounds of effort. But if that same person would lie on a flat bench with a pair of 20 pound dumbbells, squat with a pair for him does actually cross gravity at 100%. You do the same math, you say 20 pounds times 12 times 100% is 240 pounds of load per tricep, at a total cost of 40 pounds. Right? So this is efficiency? Why would you bother doing an exercise that cost you 180 pounds of effort, but only load your tricep with 119 pounds when you can do 40 pounds of cost and 240 pounds of load. And it's not like it's working a different head of the tricep? Right? All three heads are working in both ways. It's just that they're they have drastically different efficiencies. Well.
Bill DeSimone 18:40
I'll take his word for it on the calculations.
Adam 18:43
Yeah. You follow them on that? Right?
Bill DeSimone 18:45
I followed it. I didn't necessarily agree with it. But I thought I followed where he was going. But again now so
Adam 18:52
this is along the lines they were talking about before correct?
Bill DeSimone 18:54
it's the same thing. The choice between skull crushers and depth is are your elbows healthier than your shoulders, that's that's the choice. Okay, let's leave the joint issues aside. If you dip till your elbows at 90 degree bend, and your elbows are towards the rear with your torso held somewhat vertically, and at that 90 degree bend. Now you straighten your elbows and almost lock out as a pretty good match for how the resistance level changes according to your muscle torque for the triceps. The same thing with with skull crushes the 90 degree bend as your maximum moment arm and then if you stop short of locking out you keeping some of the resistance torque on the triceps. So that's also a good match.
Adam 19:41
Let me just explain that real fast. So when you're doing skull crushers and you have your forearms parallel to the ground
Bill DeSimone 19:46
correct
Adam 19:47
right and you have weight at the end of your hands. All right, you're multiplying that weight by the longest lever the whole length of your forearm, which is the heaviest that weight is at that moment. Well that also happens to be at the 90 degree angle of your elbow. That also happens to be the strongest part of your triceps, that's when your tricep is at its strongest. As you lift the weight, the lever changes mean the weight gets lighter because the lever shortens as you go up, which is okay because the tricep strength. Muscle torque actually is
Bill DeSimone 20:16
also decreasing, right
Adam 20:17
decreasing, right, that's the skull crushers now is the same thing happening during dips
Bill DeSimone 20:23
with it now with the depths, okay, when your elbow is bent at 90 degrees, not necessarily a shoulder, so your elbow is a little bit behind your torso, if you stopped there, that's the biggest resistance moment arm for your body weight in the dips, alright, without tearing your shoulders out. And now as you straighten your elbows, the resistance library is shrinking. And it's matching what your triceps can do. Now a couple of things about what you said there. When your forearm is horizontal, its heaviest. So that's that's the whole thing with levers and moment arms, right? It's not heavier, it's the same dumbbell.
Adam 20:58
No, of course, the torque
Bill DeSimone 21:00
technically is the resistance,
Adam 21:02
resistance, the foot pounds is increased.
Bill DeSimone 21:05
Now here's the problem with both of those exercises. Conventionally you start both of those exercises, where where the resistance torque is lightest, you start both of those exercises with your arms locked. So it's very easy to fool yourself. think you can handle more weight, yeah, exactly. Could you use too much weight and as soon as your elbows bend, now the bigger lever now the bigger resistance moment, arms kick in. And now it becomes unmanageable. This lever the levers in a moment arm, it's not just theoretical, it's got a very real practical effect, especially when you start the exercise. But the smallest resistance lever
Adam 21:44
when they're choosing a weight, they choose a weight and they start with their arms locked out, which doesn't feel like a lot of resistance, it can be a lot, it can be a lot of weight, but it since you're the weight is right over your elbows. Straight arm, you're not really feeling that resistance yet. As soon as you bend back. If you pick the weight that's too heavy for your triceps to handle, you're gonna you're gonna literally crush your skulls. So yeah, so the technique should be this. If you're going to do skull crushers, pick a weight that feels appropriate at the 90 degree angle, not not at the topping, not at the top,
Bill DeSimone 22:19
the thing to do would be to try to either start at the bottom. So you know right away the weights too heavy, right? So if you using dumbbells for skull crushers, for instance, you start on the floor, and you start with the dumbbells by your ears as you're lying on the floor. And now you'll know right away if it's too heavy, or, you know, the trainer or the the person doing the exercise the first time you do it, you have to guess light, because it doesn't take you know,
Mike 22:49
that's the key, you guess light when you don't know, you gotta go, you gotta think, like, really, really, light when any client asks me how to advise them on at a travel jam or somewhere there whether out of I said, Listen, you know, it lessens the exact same thing you don't know, especially if it's on a machine you have to you have to just guess light and, and and work up from there.
Adam 23:12
Particularly when there's like that timber effect that you have to worry about.
Bill DeSimone 23:18
Nice quote. I like that.
Adam 23:21
I think I got that from you.
Bill DeSimone 23:22
It was, in a moment of exercise. Yeah.
Adam 23:26
I steal a phrase while I'm interviewing the person that came up with it.
Bill DeSimone 23:32
It's flattery. By the way, that dynamic we talk about going from the easy part of it starting with the easy part of the exercise, progressing into the hard part or zero moment arm to maximum moment arm that is predictable. I mean, you can know that before you do it. But you have to make a point of studying it, you know, reading moment arm exercise or, or the biomechanics chapters in virtually any personal training certification will give you enough information to know what's happening. I think most people look at the exercise in a magazine to look at somebody in the gym doing the exercise and just try to copy what they see.
Adam 24:12
So moving on to some other points. Doug is of the opinion that for again for muscle hypertrophy for muscle development, that static exercises are inferior to dynamic exercises that that if you really want to build muscle statics are not enough. And let's listen to what he has to say.
Doug Brignole 24:28
There have been a number of studies that have shown that isometric exercise is far less productive, both from the perspective of developing a muscle enlarging the muscle. And from the perspective of gaining strength through a muscles entire range of motion. It gains strength, right where you're holding it. It does it gains a little strength in the other parts of the range of motion but not nearly as much. So if you want strength if you want What the Let's use the word functional strength, strength through muscles entire range of motion, you're better off using range of motion. Right So is there a place for isometric? Sure, if you have an injured joint
Adam 25:04
rehab
Doug Brignole 25:05
then you use as part of your rehabilitation. But this idea that we're going to do planks, as the best exercise for the ABS would be like saying, well, let's just do static everything then. Let's just do static wall squat where you just hold a squat position. Let's just do static barbell hold. Let's just do static pectoral hold. I mean, if it's good for one, it's good for all if it's not good for one, it's not good for all.
Adam 25:30
All right, so, so so so I heard that and I was like, was the first time I kind of really heard that? I mean, and I've always wondered about, you know, is dynamic exercise better than statics? I mean, you know, I have a lot of clients do planks, and it is metabolic demanding, but maybe, I don't know, maybe he's, I mean, he's a bodybuilder, right. So he spent the last 40 years playing around with with maximizing his hypertrophy. And do you think he has some insights that us mere mortals don't have?
Bill DeSimone 25:59
No. Okay. Going through the body building, right?
Adam 26:06
Yeah
Bill DeSimone 26:06
just from observation, there does seem to be something about moving your lemon space.
Adam 26:12
Hmm.
Bill DeSimone 26:13
That works. And whether it's going to failure or the pump, or whatever the mechanism is, clearly, most guys were over developed, or moving weights in space. Okay. Maybe that's to do with cumulating lactic acid and prompting hormonal changes. But let's go to the end of that passage where he talks about planks. And if it's good for one muscle is good for all the difference between planks and other abdominal, other core and abdominal exercises. Their job is to prevent unwanted movement, not necessarily to create movement. So elsewhere in the podcast, he says that the primary role of the abdominals is to move your hips and ribs closer together.
Adam 26:57
But really, it's coming up to the ribs, not the other way around, because he was defining why you call something the origin and why you call something the insertion.
Bill DeSimone 27:05
I'll deal with that in a minute but no, no, but let's just go back to the second here. Okay. As a bodybuilder, though, he thinks in terms of limbs moving right
Adam 27:18
yes
Bill DeSimone 27:18
curls, pectorals, lats, quad, etc. The limbs are moving. When you're getting into planks, though the role of the abdominals isn't necessarily to bring the hips and ribs closer together, except in a sneeze or cough. The role of the abdominals is to prevent hyperextension of the back. Because if you get forced into hyperextension, you hurt you hurt your back, whatever mechanism. So the role of the front of the abdominals is to prevent hyperextension. The role of the multifidus and rotate tours around the spine isn't to create a twist around the spine, which would ring out the discs, which is pretty much universally contrary contraindicated for a spine health. The role of those muscles is to prevent twisting. So the more appropriate way to exercise those muscles is with a plank, or is with some kind of static hold, because that's how they're going to have to function.
Adam 28:17
But when you're doing a plank, are you talking about it is appropriate for the abs for the plank?
Bill DeSimone 28:22
Yeah
Adam 28:23
but but it's the it's the spinal muscles that are really stabilizing during the plank. I mean, but the abs too of course,
Bill DeSimone 28:29
elsewhere in that podcast, he talked about doing a leg raise, and the so as pulled on the on the vertebrae, creating more of an arch for the lower back. But that's only half of what happens there. Mike, you in that podcast, you said what if you maintain a posterior pelvic tilt and that and that's the key there. If you use your abdominals to pull your hips into a posterior tilt, in other words, you're flattening the curve of your back against the spine. And now you're doing the right leg raise and your spine doesn't move. Now you're using the abdominals to stabilize the spine. The raising of the leg just gives you a bit of a flow in the exercise, okay, and that you have something to count or you move it from an easier position where your legs are straight up to a harder one where they're more horizontal. But that is a stabilizing exercise and it's using the front of the abdominals. In practice a two leg raise both legs at the same time is probably too hard for most people to do, and maintain that posterior tilt. Which is why you see things like Single Leg Raises and dead bug exercises come out of physical therapy. But the whole idea of using your abdominals to create the posterior tilt and then moving your legs. That's valid, that's legit as far as stabilizing the spine and using your abdominals appropriately. Now, it may be that planks won't give you protruding abdominals like that protruding six pack and just from observing bodybuilders over time and they're pumping their biceps and they have a bicep that lifts off their arm like a softball. And all most of us high intensity guys have something on our upper arm, but it's certainly not, you know by the name of current bodybuilder. So maybe
Adam 30:11
I can't
Bill DeSimone 30:13
I can't either. Maybe moving moving the hips towards the ribs with force is what gives you maybe by whatever mechanism that gives you those protruding abdominals. But as far as training the spine appropriately, the abdominals appropriately to stabilize, the spine planks are fine planks are, are appropriate.
Adam 30:32
So when he makes a blanket statement that if dynamic movement is good for one muscle, it's good for all that might not be true because you know, some muscles are meant to be stabilized, but they're not primary movers. So, strengthening them by not require any dynamic movement.
Bill DeSimone 30:48
And again, keeping the bodybuilding context most of what bodybuilders are talking about are the the superficial muscles that give your body shape. They're talking about deltoids, pectorals, lats, biceps, triceps, quads, glutes, those muscles that are supposed to move limbs, or propel you in space, probably are best trained with movement, as opposed to the muscles around your spine, the deep muscles in your hips, rotator cuff, whose main job is to hold the posture steady.
Adam 31:26
So you really think that let's say for the deltoids, the lateral deltoids? Do you really do think like a lateral raise? Going through safe range of motion is better than doing a static hold lateral raise for muscle development?
Bill DeSimone 31:39
Do? I think so? Not necessarily.
Adam 31:41
I mean, is there? Are there studies that compare statics versus dynamic for a particular muscle group?
Bill DeSimone 31:47
I will say from a practical point of view, if you're using an isometric for let's say, use it for biceps, right, I do think there's a difference between pulling against something as hard as you can, in terms of straining the joint straining one point, the articulation, as opposed to resisting a negative for a minute. They're both static. One, I think is harder on the joints than the other. But as far as which is better for the muscle. I couldn't even guess.
Adam 32:21
Well, a lot of people that kind of feel strongly one way or the other on this, and then I don't know what they're basing it on. Which Okay,
Bill DeSimone 32:26
I mean, I don't know. I don't know, either. I'm, let's put it this way, I do think in a non therapy setting. Okay. Because, because if you're in rehab it, the calculation is different. In a non therapy setting, I do think the more appropriate way to train the bigger, more superficial muscles, is with some kind of movement, whether it's single joint or multiple joint, and the muscles around the core with static, static contractions. Because that's how they, that's how they'll function in life, right? If you got to lift something out of the trunk of your car, something heavy, a bag, you lean over, you want your back to stay steady, while your glutes and your arms do the lifting. You don't have to be whipping kettlebells around and doing silly human tricks to train functionally. You can also just be maintaining your posture while you're lifting weights because that's how it's supposed to work.
Adam 33:26
Right? Yeah, so we talked about that on a recent episode. Exactly that the idea of mimicking those movements, you know, in the gym, because you happen to do it once in a while outside of the gym.
Mike 33:42
Bill, what do you just in light of what you just said in regards to you know, stabilizing core muscles. What's your just overall view on the rotary torso exercise? As far as strengthening obliques? multifidus, abdominals.
Bill DeSimone 34:01
I think you have to be careful that your obliques, which are going to help you twist, you know there's the part of the twist that's bringing your shoulder forward can easily overpower the parts around the muscles around your spine that bring the other shoulder backward. So if you're doing the rotary torso, you don't really want the person twisting, in other words you dont want them pulling back as much as they're pushing forward. Just so that you don't overpower those back those deep spine muscles. It's for instance, the old fashioned floor crunch. We did like a little twist on the way up. You didn't really pull the bottom shoulder backwards so you never twisted your back on that exercise. On a rotary torso. Again, if someone's overly enthusiastic, and in addition to pushing forward they're trying to pull back like in a dumbbell row like a like a lawn mower. Lawn Mower motion pull. Yeah, I could easily see the forward motion overpowering the back motion, and now you're back in the position of ringing the discs. So I think in terms of coaching people on it, I think as long as they feel both sit bones on the seat, in other words as far as they can go without moving to sit bones off the seat, right? So if if one sit bone lifts off, you know, they're twisting a little too much, if they both sit bones are intact, their range of motion is going to be less, but it's going to be a little safer.
Mike 35:30
Would you ever I mean, what do you think about just like maybe even like getting them rotated, say, whatever, 25 30 degrees and just holding it at that position?
Adam 35:40
under tension
Mike 35:41
under tension,
Adam 35:42
with a band or something?
Bill DeSimone 35:44
Well, like I said, 25 30 degrees I, I think 25 degrees of rotation 25 to 30 degrees, rotation is the right amount more is not better.
Mike 35:55
Right
Bill DeSimone 35:56
If somebody tries to go further than that, then then they're flirting with trouble.
Mike 36:01
That's the that's the, you know, going, you know, trying to recreate the golf swing, things like that, where how far do you actually train, rotate? Whatever the muscle is that you want to be strong or stable when you have to actually do a rotating movement in order to do something that you want to do, you know?
Bill DeSimone 36:19
Well, I think I think I wrote somewhere that practicing bed biomechanics doesn't make you invulnerable. Right, you're just wearing out that joint faster. A golfer for instance, to practice that extreme swing beyond what you have to do on the course, is just adding more bad swing more bad movements to his back. Right. So for training purposes
Mike 36:43
and adding resistance to it also
Bill DeSimone 36:46
resistance and reps and speed probably right, right. So if you do remember Don Mattingly years ago, you know,
Mike 36:54
we are New Yorkers, of course,
Bill DeSimone 36:56
yeah, no, I forgot. Get away with that reference.
Adam 36:58
I was still I was a Yankee fan back then
Mike 37:00
in LA man. He coached the Dodgers too.
Bill DeSimone 37:03
So we've lost Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, at the end of his career, he said, you know, his back went out. And he said, Yeah,
Adam 37:10
Thats why he's not in the hall of fame right now.
Bill DeSimone 37:12
I've been doing this exercise for 20 years, and I was never, you know, it's never heard before. Well, okay, so you're doing whatever you're doing, plus 1000s of swings on the field, you only get so many bad movements out of your back. So you can either waste some in the in the gym or in competition.
Adam 37:30
Yeah, he meets, he obviously reached his limit.
Bill DeSimone 37:33
Like you would never tell a guy like that. Never twist. But if anybody like that ever asked me, I would look at what they were doing in the gym and steer them away from the stuff that is clearly contradictory. With regard to joint safety.
Mike 37:48
Well, my my comment was more rhetorical about like associating with golf, but I wanted to bring it up, because it's what I think a lot of our listeners and a lot of people still think about trying to strengthen their backs or increase their range of motion in order to efficiently and hopefully safely do a golf swing. And, you know, just bringing up rotary torso as an exercise, which people some people just love to feel because oh my god, my obliques are feeling it.
Adam 38:21
And and they want to go to the extremes that range of motion. They love that stretch, which I never let them go into right. Yeah, well, the reason why I actually, you know, something, I don't know, if I read it, or if I just thinking common sense wise, you know, when I want someone to do a rotary torso, it with range of motion, it usually wouldn't, you know, go beyond about 25 to 30 degrees, and oftentimes, less and oftentimes, even less than that. But I just wanted to get your opinion and based on what we were talking about in regards to the static core type of stuff. And if that's if you think that is he actually better for creating stability for a golf swing.
Bill DeSimone 39:03
Yes, but it's also worth working on range of motion, just not with weights.
Mike 39:10
Correct. Right. Right
Bill DeSimone 39:11
Okay. And that's where whatever you want to call it, bodywork stretching. If someone's into yoga, I mean, there is something to be said about trying to increase your range of motion but but not with weights, right?
Mike 39:24
Yeah. Yeah. Good
Bill DeSimone 39:26
The old the old. The old very old Nautilus idea that strengthen your muscles safely and then practice so you buy learns how to use your muscles. I think that's so good.
Adam 39:36
I agree. Yep
Mike 39:37
Yeah, the, honestly, from a training perspective, the thing I encourage is like if your golf swing is your golf swing, and you need to be at a certain point on the backswing, and you need to be at a certain point on your follow through. I've literally just recommended a very slow motion swing to the point slow motion where you get to the point of your maximum that backswing where that ever that is with whatever limitations your body has. And then very slowly bringing the club through, you know, so you're not actually adding X, you know, this projectile force, a, you know, rotating with your body.
Adam 40:15
It's like Tai Chi style
Mike 40:16
but it's just and then inevitably, it's what you just said, it's just kind of like getting your body used to being in this quote, unquote, extended range of motion position that golf requires.
Bill DeSimone 40:25
And what Adam just said about tai chi style. So the idea is, you do it in slow motion, so your body knows how to do it safely. Right, then when you do it live, your body has done it before,
Mike 40:39
right? It has like it walked before it ran.
Bill DeSimone 40:42
You know it's like, if someone's playing volleyball or playing basketball, they should be doing some kind of jumping drill, not for conditioning, but just so they they know how to land safely
Adam 40:57
Right
Bill DeSimone 40:58
And then when they don't do a competition, it's not a shock.
Mike 41:01
Right, right.
Adam 41:02
Yeah. Which is not new
Mike 41:04
It's actually yeah, that's such an interesting point. Because especially for sports, because everyone always measures how high you can jump, but not exactly how well you can actually safely land. It is it says the blend
Adam 41:19
landing is a lot more important than jumping isnt it
Mike 41:20
in your longevity and being able to do the activity, the landing is infinitely more important than the height that you could actually achieve on the job. That's a good point.
Bill DeSimone 41:29
Not the fall. It's a sudden stop.
Mike 41:32
Yeah,
Adam 41:32
it's not how much you make. It's how much you keep. Yeah.
Mike 41:36
There's a there's a comedian who said, This reminded me of it. It's a stretch right now pun intended. But he said, like, you know, they got cars nowadays, they get from zero to 60 in 4.2 seconds, because I don't need that I need a car that gets me from 88 to 54 in 1 second. I don't even know who said it.
Adam 41:59
That's a good point. So this reminds me of something else that came up while I was interviewing Doug. Regarding sport specific training,
Doug Brignole 42:07
I would say if you're sports conditioning, you want to mimic your sport as much as possible. The problem is that a lot of people fantasize about being a sportsman of some sort. And then in the real world, they don't actually do it. In other words, they'll train like a boxer, but they're never really gonna box. Right? They just like the idea that the training like a boxer, right? Okay, if you're, if your idea of working out is mostly fun, then that's great. But if you're let's say you're lying on your flat on your back with a pair of 20 pound dumbbells, and you're gonna explode with those 20 pound dumbbells up, you're going to basically catapult those 20 pound dumbbells up, right, and that's going to pull your arms up. So if your objective is to gain strength, basic, usable strength, I would say always use a deliberate speed, not an explosive speed, control it up, control it down. If your goal if your niche is so specific, that you want to compete in boxing, you want to compete in tennis, then you do want to actually mimic what you're doing. But my observation has been that especially in men, we have this fantasy, and they want to be a 400 pound bench presser, they want to be a boxer, they want to be a swimmer, they want to be you know, a surfer, and they want to, and there's only so many hours in the day, you can't spend three hours. I mean, you got to work, you got to sleep, you probably have a job and family and you know, you got to pick and choose you can't do it. All right,
Adam 43:37
true. But like you're not saying however. I mean, there's let me just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying. Because if you we have clients that are our true athletes, you know, their amateur athletes, and let's say you have a tennis player, you're not suggesting that we kind of mimic with weights in the weight room, a tennis stroke, just to just to improve their their tennis stroke, are you?
Doug Brignole 44:01
I would say that that could be part of what you do, not all of what you do. But I would definitely if I had a tennis of competitive tennis athlete, I would definitely work specifically on let's say, a backhand, trying to mimic some resistance on the backhand. So he's getting an improvement of power on the backhand or on an overhand. I mean, you don't want these people to go out on the court or wherever they get, and then
Adam 44:25
why dont you strengthen their why dont you strengthen their deltoids that are involved in this and either the posterior delts anterior delts congruently, you know, according to muscle and joint function that then let them go out on a tennis court and start playing tennis,
Doug Brignole 44:36
that that would work also. But I'm just saying that if I had a tennis athlete, it wouldn't hurt to also incorporate some very, very specific, I would say maybe 10% 15% of how I would train them might be mimicking certain sport, especially if they have a weakness in a particular part of their game.
Bill DeSimone 44:56
I think I think it would hurt. I think Darden you ago pointed out that you don't practice for tennis by playing badminton. You know, like, if the movement is similar, it just throws you off to the real movement, some of that condition is more appropriately done on the tennis court than in a weight room, I would I would do what you suggested, you know, strengthen the rotator cuff in the shoulders. Strengthen everything safely. And then, you know
Adam 45:25
go play tennis
Bill DeSimone 45:26
practice, practice drills with the with the ball, right. But you know, if you ever hear any hit influenced, say college strength coaches, they'll also admit that people around them want to see this type of behavior, right? They don't want to see an empty weight room, because everyone got their workout done in 20 minutes is now off killing time. You know, they want to see people running with parachutes. And, you know, doing all the different stunts, because it looks like something's happening. So
Adam 46:02
they gotta judge that the athletic trainers have to they have justify their existence. I know, it's, it's, but you know, thing is, uh, I know, it sounds like we're disagreeing with everything Doug has said on the last interview. But like, as you and I talked about offline, not too long ago, Bill, you know, we agree 90%, right, we're on we're on the same page. I mean, the idea of paying attention to the biomechanics, protecting the joints, using a speed that safe, trying to use little momentum as possible. Understanding that, you know, we're trying to get stronger, we're not trying to become a boxer or an athlete, you know, I mean, his idea, his approach to general fitness and exercise. You know, we're a lot closer in agreement than we are in disagreement, I would say, wouldn't you?
Bill DeSimone 46:52
Well, the difference between, practically between what he does, what I do, what you do, what other hit practitioners do, the difference between all of us, is nothing compared to the difference between us and CrossFit and boot camps, right? I mean, we're talking about shades of difference, you know, in my case, you know, maybe maybe trimming off parts of the extreme range of motion that some hit guys might be doing, which is really, really nuanced differences compared to running people until they puke, for instance, or barking at him to do more burpees regardless of their form, regardless of their posture, you know, regardless of what's happening to the person's joints, but they hit a number, so high five them.
Adam 47:39
So before we wrap up, there is one more thing that I want to talk about, which was interesting to me. It's about intensity in recovery. And I'd like to play I like to play a clip from that
Doug Brignole 47:51
there is a right level of intensity. In my book, I have a chart where I show what happens if the intensity level is too low. What happens if it's too high? And what happens if it's just right? And clearly, just right, has nothing but benefit. But if it's too low, you won't get the benefit. If its too high. It's like getting a sunburn. In other words, instead of giving you stimulation, you get injury. And when you have an injury, you actually basically have to heal. So some people think, hey, if I workout super intensely, and I just work a body part once a week, in other words, take a longer amount of time between workouts, I can compensate for the high intensity, no, you cannot, it doesn't work that way. You can't. It's unlike recovery time is the great equalizer like if you do more frequency, you can do super low intensity. Or if you do super high intensity, just take a little extra time and everything will be fine. No, pretty much the way the body works is when you work on muscle, you're going to have somewhere between a two day and four day amount of recovery. After which comes with a call super compensation. That's when the muscle is getting stronger. Right. So the goal is to not work that muscle again, assuming you've worked in relatively hard to not work and until you've passed recovery, and have gotten into super compensation.
Adam 49:08
So Bill, it seems that that Doug is recommending for most people about two or three days recovery and he doesn't think that if you work out like super hard going to muscle failure and everything where you're going maybe 10 seconds beyond positive failure, for example, with maximal effort, that if you do that once a week, you you can make up for that high intensity by just having extra rest. And a lot of as you know, a lot of hit facilities, high intensity training facilities are recommending a lot of people work. A full body compound movements, six or seven exercises, complete failure. take a week off. I mean, where do you where do you sit on the intensity versus recovery can tinuum, if you will, I understand
Bill DeSimone 50:01
the theory, because mentor mentor said similar things 35 40 years ago about not working out until you're fully recovered. But you know that then it got ridiculous where he's suggesting workout once every three weeks, you know, stretching the recovery out so long that if you were to say I don't work out most of the time, you wouldn't be lying, right? If you're working out once every three weeks. So for myself and the type of clients I'm training, I kind of moderate the intensity based on how much they they're going to work out. So for people who are using us, for instance, because we're their only physical activity, and maybe they're going to work out twice a week, I'm going to moderate the intensity, so they can work out productively twice a week, like, I'm not going to try to drop them so that they're sore the second time. And the other thing with training too hard. You know, it's one thing if your muscles have to recover, it's another thing if your joints have to recover, you know, it's if failure looks like your teeth are clenching, your veins are bulging, you know, spits coming out of your mouth, it's more than your muscles that have to recover. So at this time in life, I tend to go a little easier on the intensity, I think the intention, intensity can be managed also, again, keeping in mind that most of the people I'm dealing with are using me for their physical activity in life. You know, these are not people who are regularly, you know, walking, running, doing sports, if they were, I would train them harder once a week, was that kind of physically active person?
Adam 51:39
Well, it's very true. And I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people ask me, So what determines once or twice a week? Or more or less? And I always say, Well, depends what else you do outside of here and the intensity level and your lifestyle, how much sleep stress. I mean, there are a lot of variables that I ultimately take into account before we decide what the frequency intensity duration ends up being
Mike 52:05
plus we see how they respond to the exercise itself. I mean, you know, on its own, I think sometimes you just need some time to see how they feel, how they're how they're doing, you know, like, they're like, Oh, well, you know,
Adam 52:18
and it's Tim Ryan and I, I've always talked about and, and he's, you know, does a lot of research in this area, and that is the genetic component and, and how we're genetically going to respond to exercise and people are different in that regard. Where do you feel I pretty much you know, just work out hard, modulate it to an extent and then move on. Don't overthink it.
Bill DeSimone 52:41
I've put in a lot of thought into not overthinking. I've had a lot of thought into this. And I came to the conclusion. Don't overthink it. You know? And again, why is the person working out if the person is intent on being a bodybuilder looking like a bodybuilder competing as a bodybuilder, then they're going to do something excessive either with you without you. That's not necessarily the same for the person, you know, the businessman or woman who comes to you and says, you know, I just need to get in shape and it's very vague. And their idea of a hard workout is what you would call a a break in workout. But their perception of it is all out. It's so hard. So
Adam 53:25
I'm with you
Bill DeSimone 53:26
Yeah, I put a lot of thought into not overthinking.
Adam 53:30
Alright, I think I think that's a good place to end this. It was it was perfect.
Tim Edwards 53:39
Thanks again to Bill DeSimone for taking the time to join us once again here on the inform fitness podcast. We will include links in the show notes to Adam, Bill and Doug's books, so you can pick them up in Amazon and have them delivered right to your door. Hey, for those of you who reside near Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville. Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and Reston. Good news. There's an inform fitness near you. pop on over to informfitness.com to get a glimpse of each location. Better yet, set up a consultation and begin your own journey with a power of 10 Thanks so much for listening and until next time for Adam Mike and Sheila of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards of the inbound podcasting Network.
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