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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp: Good morning.
Taina Brown: Good morning.
Becky Mollenkamp: Or good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are listening. But to Taina this morning, I say good morning. There you go. We were just getting ready to record and Taina noticed that I don't sound great. So you may notice I don't sound great. I have had a cough, a persistent cough for a few weeks to which Taina said, have you been to the doctor? And that's when I said, well, let's hit record and we'll talk about it. Because no, I have not. And here are my thoughts.
Taina Brown: Good day to you, sir.
Becky Mollenkamp: What's the point? Because everything I've looked up, one, WebMD, right? It's everyone's doctor in their computer. I mean, unless I have a bacterial infection, which would be like bacterial pneumonia, or something like whooping cough, which I know it's not based on how it sounds, there's no medicine. Antibiotics won't help. More than likely, it's viral. And I'm tired of, mean, like, I think we all are doing way too much treating with antibiotics of things that don't need to be, right? So leading to antibiotic resistance. And the other reason is our health insurance is fine and it would be covered. But I hate, I hate healthcare in America. I hate going to the doctor. I hate everything about the process. I hate trying to get booked. I hate going, I hate having to refuse to be weighed and dealing with what that might, what that looks like, what the judgment from the nurses. And I just hate the whole process. There's nothing about our health care that I love. And that felt like a good segue into what one of the things we were going to talk about. I think this will end up being a bit of a hodgepodge issue. I mean, episode. But we were going to talk a little bit about the UnitedHealthcare CEO being gunned down by allegedly, potentially maybe.
Taina Brown: Luigi Mangione.
Becky Mollenkamp: Luigi Mangione. And it's an interesting story. So I don't know, there's so many ways to talk about this.
Taina Brown: So this will be a hodgepodge episode, so just buckle in, but a cup, because I think we're going to tackle a few things today. I want to say, however, before we jump into that, totally feel you about having to go to the doctor and that whole process just being a headache. I feel like I have like eight doctor's appointments a month at this point, and it's just a pain in the ass and exhausting every time. I will recommend to you, whether or not you go to the doctor, and this is for anyone listening to, a holistic tea remedy that helps us whenever we are feeling unwell, congested, have a cold. Even when we had COVID, this was really helpful.
Becky Mollenkamp: And this is not medical advice. All the, yeah, all the little asterisks there.
Taina Brown: This is not medical advice. This is just a home remedy that sometimes my wife and I will use, because it has helped us manage the symptoms better. So it might not like shorten, but it'll, make the congestion a little bit better or whatnot. So green tea with lemon, garlic and honey.
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't like garlic. It bothers me. And also that sounds disgusting.
Taina Brown: I know. It is disgusting. We literally, whenever we get sick, whenever we've had COVID, we would drink like eight to 10 cups of that a day.
Becky Mollenkamp: You all must have really smelled. That's a lot of garlic.
Taina Brown: Like you don't put a whole lot of garlic in it. and ginger and ginger don't forget the ginger but like garlic has a lot of just natural healing properties and it's really good for like immune health and so that's why the garlic is in there. Ginger if you don't know ginger is also good for like immune health and and things like that. And then obviously green tea has a lot of antioxidants and and honey is antimicrobial. And the lemon is just, know, for kicks. So you feel fancy with a wedge of or a slice of lemon in your tea.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, I will remember that. I will say it's not COVID. I don't think because I took a COVID test, although part of me wonders, the new COVID test or the COVID test that I have now catching new strains, right? Like I have no idea. But I did take a COVID test and it was negative. And my husband and kid also have a bit of a cough. They feel a little better than I do, but it's just been I don't know. It's just one of those lingering things. But anyway, it is what it is. And just a quick note on the doctor thing. Just a reminder, because some people don't know, you can refuse to be weighed in when you go to the doctor. And I do, unless it's something where there's a medical reason for it. Meaning, if you're talking about a dosage of medication that's based on weight, OK, we can talk about that then. But otherwise, I now refuse. And I have for the last couple of years. And it's really liberating. And I said that about the nurses giving you looks, they don't at my primary care person, because they know. If you experience judgment over it, it's time to find a different healthcare practitioner because healthcare practitioners worth their salt know that BMI is BS and racist.
Taina Brown: Yeah, it's been debunked for years now.
Becky Mollenkamp: So anyway, I just want to throw that out there too, as long as we're talking about healthcare. But okay, so Luigi, what are your initial thoughts?
Taina Brown: Luigi! First of all...Smash.
Becky Mollenkamp: Definitely not a pass, not a pass. Unfortunately, I don't know that he could smash, which was part of the problem. I don't know how much you've read about him, but he had this severe back pain with like his lowest, what are they called vertebrae that cause a lot of debilitating pain and sciatica as somebody who deals with sciatica. I know that it sucks and at times it can be bad. And I don't even have the slipped disc issues that he had. So I'm sure it's much worse, but I also understand that it interfered with his ability. He had said that interfered with his ability to be in relationships. So one can assume what that means. And he's a young man. So that we know is challenging. I don't think, I've heard a lot of people making light of that and making joke of that, but the truth is a healthy sex life, particularly for young men and young people and for people who want exactly, if you are someone who is wanting that part of your life to be fulfilled and it's not, that's a serious issue. That's a serious quality of life issue, along with pain and all of the other things. So when I've heard people making light of that or making jokes about it, it upsets me because I think it's extremely dismissive for and based in a lot of shame, I think, because we create all the shame around sex. But in fact, sex is an important part of life for many people. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's something that should be fine. And so anyway, yes, smash. He couldn't. And I think that's part of the problem, right, is he was experiencing a lot of health problems, pain and encountering as so many people do. And I think it'll be interesting to hear a little bit from you, Taina, because I know you deal with chronic health issues as well. Finding very little help within the system as it exists. And I was reading about, you know, just things like physical therapy, which would be very helpful to him. For most people, your health insurance covers very little, if any.
Taina Brown: Very little.
Becky Mollenkamp: And so it's often an out of pocket sort of expense. It can be difficult to find providers that even if your insurance does cover it that you can find, it's usually an inadequate amount. Very often things are dismissed as not medically necessary. So insurance doesn't have to cover it. Meaning if he says, you know, I can't have an active sex life because of this, they can say, well, that's not medically necessary. But again, it's an important part of life and we can't just write those things off. all that to say he had a lot going on that led up to this, if it was in fact him. So again, all the allegedlys about whether it's him or not. But yeah, what has been your experience with healthcare and can you relate to some of those issues that he's experienced?
Taina Brown: So I was hospitalized. Well, even before I was hospitalized earlier this year, got a diagnosis of fibromyalgia back in 2016, 2017, because I was having this chronic widespread pain that nobody had an answer for. And a diagnosis of fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue or something like that. It's basically process of elimination. They test for things like lupus. They test for things like rheumatoid arthritis and things like that. If they do all the tests and those tests come back inconclusive, then they're like, OK, it could be fibromyalgia because that's what the symptoms sound like and it's not these other things. And the thing with a fibromyalgia diagnosis is that you're also constantly being retested for all of those other things to make sure it's not those. So I literally just had a panel, a blood panel taken a couple weeks ago to just make sure that there wasn't any indications of lupus or rheumatoid arthritis or anything like that. And I think what I want people to understand about living with a disability, and I was thinking about this this morning, it's like, we talk about the intersectionality of just life in general, right? And being intersectional feminist and all of that I think sometimes disability kind of gets forgotten in those conversations. And the thing with disability, it's the one intersectional point that anybody can find themselves in.
Becky Mollenkamp: Regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, anything.
Taina Brown: You will never become a Black person, but you could become disabled. If you identify as heterosexual, you're probably never going to, you if you, if you feel strongly about that, if you've done the questioning and you're like, no, actually I'm, I'm straight. I'm straight. I love the D like I'm completely straight. That's what it is for me. Like you're never going to change that about yourself, but you could get into an accident and become disabled overnight. And then all of a sudden your life is completely different. so dealing with the healthcare system in this country is such a pain in the ass. Like can't tell you how many times. Just even just this year, like my pulmonologist has like tried to prescribe me medications and the insurance has denied it. And then I have to go back to my pulmonologist, right? So this creates more work for me as the disabled person to have to make another appointment, have to go back to the hospital that I almost died at, right? And get emotionally triggered and all this shit.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and it requires you to be able to have transportation. If you don't have your own transportation, to be able to afford transportation, to be able to take off work, because guess what? Those hospitals aren't operating in the evening, right? Like you have to do it during traditional work hours. So there's all of these other factors that go, and by the way, at the core of all of this discussion is, it requires you to have insurance.
Taina Brown: Yes, it requires you to have insurance. The reason I kept my pulmonologist, even though he is affiliated with the hospital that did almost kill me earlier this year, is because he's a really, really good pulmonologist. But with that also comes the reality that I cannot tell you how many times his office has called me and said, we need to reschedule, actually. And the appointments keep getting pushed back. Or where they have just rescheduled and sent me a letter in the mail that may or may not arrive on time because the post office is underfunded and poorly run. And then I get like a text message on the day of and it's like, fuck, I got to get to the doctor or I have actually missed an appointment because I didn't get the notification in time. And then it's like, you missed your appointment, let's reschedule. And it's like, what appointment? Like, what are you talking about? And so it's when I tell my, my pulmonologist, the insurance denied it. Like I can see his frustration also.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure, and I think that sometimes we forget that and we're working with healthcare. It reminds me of going on an airline and being frustrated by a flight cancellation or whatever the issue is and end up taking it out on the crew, the pilots and the flight attendants or the people that are working at the desk when the truth is they had nothing to do with it and they're just as frustrated as you are.
Taina Brown: We've also just had to, like, I can't tell you how many practitioners we fired because they just were not empathetic. You could tell that they just didn't believe that they had the time to care about my situation or their staff was you know, just really horrible. Like I went to a doctor's appointment once and you know, they did your vitals, they took some blood and sat with the doctor and I really liked the doctor. It was a black woman doctor. This is where we were living in Atlanta and I really liked her. And then I went home and about an hour later, I get a call from the office and they're like, hey, so the nurse who took your vitals forgot to put it into the system. Can you come back so we can retake your vitals? And I was like, no, no. First of all, you're like almost an hour away from me because that's how far I was willing to drive to see a good doctor. But now you're like, that person had one job. Like, and now it's, it's, it's up to me as the patient to come back and do that. Like I'm not doing that. Like you just lost your vitals for today. Like I'm just, I'm not going to do it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. Too bad for you.
Taina Brown: Right. So we ended up, I ended up having to like fire that practice because I was like, I, it was that, it was that among other things that kept happening. And I was just like, no, we, I'm not driving an hour to see a good doctor when the staff is clearly not at the same level and making this more difficult for me. So I had to find a new doctor and then the process of finding a doctor and making sure they're in network. And then because things are so compartmentalized now, the doctor might be a network, right? But the person who draws your blood might not be. And if you have to have a surgery, like the surgeon might be a network, but the anesthesiologist might not be.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. Or they may decide that your anesthesia is only covered for a certain number of hours. And if your surgery goes too long, that was another thing. The same day, bad timing on releasing that information that they were saying that they're only going to cover anesthesia for a prescribed amount of time, depending. I mean, despite what happens with the actual procedure, of course, that was reversed in the light of everything that's happened. But I like that you mentioned firing a practice because I want to. I mean, I think it's just important to talk about agency here. I think that's part of the issue is within our healthcare system, there feels like a real lack of agency. Yes, we have some agency. You can fire practitioners and you can find practitioners. And there are such limitations around what that means because if you fire that practitioner, your insurance may only offer you a small, depending on, especially depending on how specialized the service you need is, you may have very few options that are actually covered. So you have the agency to fire someone. And I think it's important for us to remember that because if it's not the right fit, or if they are being disrespectful or a whole host of things, you should fire them. Right. And it's one thing when as a general practitioner, sure, you might be able to find you probably have dozens and dozens you can choose from in your insurance. But if you're talking about a pulmonologist, you may have very few limited options. And so if you're firing someone, then what? And with all of this, again, we have to go back to because what I really want to talk about is insurance and how that relates to this whole, the bigger context of the story, which is you have to have insurance in this country and you have to have good insurance, right? And so many people do not. And I feel like what this story, I don't really care to get into whether Luigi did it or didn't do it. Honestly, whether it was even right or wrong or any of the things. To me, what I find interesting about all of this is the response and what I have noticed and and I will first fully say I am in a bit of an echo chamber. So that may be part of why I'm experienced what I'm experiencing in the zeitgeist. But and it's a I determined I decided to have an echo chamber as we've talked about the past to protect my own safety and peace. But I have noticed a real support for this person, whoever it is, whether it's Luigi who did it or someone else, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty. But for this murder, I have seen a real, I don't even, for some people it's an extreme amount of like, yeah, kill them all. That's not where I show up. But even people who aren't to that extreme, I see people saying, I get it. That's the biggest thing I am experiencing is this like, I may not approve of it, I may not like it, it may not be the right tactic, whatever. But I get it. get the frustration. I get the desperation. I get the anger.
Taina Brown: There's a lot of empathy for this person.
Becky Mollenkamp: Because so many of us can relate to it. And it does make you think missed opportunity, Democrats, Kamala Harris, during the election of like this thing that unites so many people who maybe are voting against their own interests with the Republican Party because the Republican Party has attracted so many lesser-educated folks, and I don't mean that pejoratively, I mean that just strictly by the demographics. And right. And those folks often, not always, but like working class kind of folks, less college educated, doing more trades work and that kind of thing. Very often, those are the people who are the least likely to have health insurance or quality health insurance. So they're voting against their own interests when it comes to these issues over a whole host of other things that, you know, right or wrong, think a lot of it's just identity stuff that has caused them to vote against their own self-interest. And I wonder if doing a better job of getting to this thing that seems to be coming out of like a shared, united across party lines based on class and experience with health care, if there would, it could have been a better way to tap into that to have defeated Trump because MAGA and Trump and all of them, they're part of the elite class. I look at Trump's nominees. Their wealth is like pushing 400 billion, his cabinet.
Taina Brown: Yeah, they're not like us.
Becky Mollenkamp: They're not like us at all. They don't get, and so, you these people who have no money experience all of this, the ramifications of the widening disparity in wealth, one of those being healthcare. And they're voting against, they're voting for these billionaire class who have no understanding of that. And so I just, feel like there's part of me that's excited because it does feel like this moment where if the left could do a good job and they won't, so I'm a little sad about it because they'll bungle it, but there is this opportunity to really tap into something here and say, they're not like us. They don't get it. Let's unite. Set aside those things that make us, that separate us and focus on the things that unite us, which are we're tired of the rich getting richer and the rest of us suffering.
Taina Brown: No, I completely agree. think, I mean, we've talked about this. I don't know if we've talked about it on the podcast or just in all the other communal spaces that we share, but just how the Democrats' strategy has just been, it feels like no strategy whatsoever. Like, if I were a Democrat in office, the day of the incident of the shooting, I would have been like booking news segments, putting out information and content about the health care crisis in this country. I have not seen that.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, because they're terrified. They're so afraid of being accused of celebrating murder, celebrating vigilantism, know, of endorsing that kind of behavior and all of that. They are terrified of it because they continue to allow the right to set the narrative. It is infuriating to me that because there's easy answers to that, to those things to say, I'm not celebrating those things. But I am aware of what's going on here. And are you saying that this one person's murder is more important than the deaths of, and they can find the stats on how many people are dying every year.
Taina Brown: It's so easy! It's easy to find the stats.
Becky Mollenkamp: They're dying every year because of denied insurance claims, because of not having insurance and health situations. We are talking, I am sure thousands, not tens of thousands of people every year.
Taina Brown: Who get denied for for coverage that maybe they once had or for new coverage that they need for Medications for things like physical therapy rehabilitation services.
Becky Mollenkamp: All of it. And we're just talking deaths, let alone all the other things that go on. And the answers to those things are simple, but they are so afraid. Politicians are so afraid. And the left in particular is so, by left, mean Democrats, which is why I don't really identify with that party in the way that I did decades ago, because it is embarrassing.
Taina Brown: It's so embarrassing. So embarrassing. And you know, I used to think it was because they were afraid of being accused of being too woke or having too much sympathy for a murderer or whatever. But I'm kind of at the point where I'm like, is it that they're afraid or is it that they just don't care. They are really showing us that they're not that different from Republicans. So by what they're choosing and not choosing to speak out against, they are letting us know that this is not a priority to them. The health care crisis in this country, that has been exacerbated by COVID, which is still around still wreaking havoc and destroying people's lives and making people disabled by things like long COVID and getting pneumonia back to back and all those other conditions that come along with it, they are not prioritizing that. so I think I honestly, I'm at the point where it's just like, they're not afraid. They just don't care because they're not that different from Republicans. They want to keep their power and their privilege, and they want to keep their funding. And so they know what battles to fight and what battles to let go of. Like, I think that's their strategy.
Becky Mollenkamp: Exactly. Money and power corrupt. Yeah, money and power corrupt. I saw somebody call a certain Democrat, a corporatist Democrat, and I was like, they're all that's setting an exception. They're literally all corporatist Democrats. It's only the only difference is the degree to which that they are. But they all are because you cannot get into office and certainly not to the level of a national office without accepting corporate dollars. I mean, it's very, very difficult. There are very few of them that are able to survive just on grassroots sort of donations, individual donations. It doesn't work. And then you become beholden to these corporate interests.
Taina Brown: Those corporate interests, yeah. I saw something where Australia is either, they have either passed or are in the process of passing a bill or a law or something where the cap that any one major corporation can donate is like 20K.
Becky Mollenkamp: Except that if it ends up going the way of America, then they just create packs where, and packs and packs and packs where like they just find ways to circumvent all of these laws. Which is frustrating because we need some more absolutist kinds of laws to change the way people are elected because it's a mess. to slightly change the subject or move us onto another topic slightly, but still related, speaking of corporate interests, I'm sure you probably saw it it just came out yesterday, I think the news. Well, as we're recording this, the news that Metta is giving a million dollars to Trump's inauguration.
Taina Brown: What? I did not see that. God.
Becky Mollenkamp: So on the heels of our discussion a week or two ago about digital detox, continuing to remind me why I want to leave Meta products. And I am going to make that happen by the end of the year to some degree, whether it's just I delete the apps and I leave my profiles up so no one can steal my username. I haven't decided exactly what the exit process looks like. But so, yeah, you know, you have these these corporate interests that are giving money and of us suffer because this is this is information related to so like there's the health care thing then there's information because a lot of people get a lot of their information through social media and when you have meta giving a million dollars to trump and having been previously not even just accused but found to be throttling certain types of information typically information that's more progressive or I would just say factual and allowing through a lot of like propaganda from Russia in support of Trump, that's really worrisome.
Taina Brown: It is. I mean, I had heard about, I think, I don't know if I fucking dreamt this or if it really happened, stress nightmares about, you know, the TikTok ban, like them overturning some kind of protection against the TikTok ban.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right now it's still set to go. Trump has indicated that he's inclined to, although previously having stated he supported a TikTok ban, probably got some money somewhere along the way, and has now started to indicate he may be course on that and maybe would be more supportive of TikTok. But unless anything changes, TikTok's supposed to be banned on January 19th, the day before Trump takes office in the US. So we'll see. It'll be interesting.
Taina Brown: I feel like if he's now leaning towards not banning or at least saying that, right, like then the conspiracy theorists in me is like, what kind of backend deal did TikTok make with the US government about regulating information on TikTok now? And then TikTok will basically become like Instagram.
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't even think that's conspiracy theories, Taina. That just feels like using your brain, right? I mean, I don't feel like that's too conspir... Yeah, I don't feel like they were being much of a conspiracist theory there. It's not a big line to try and draw to say, gee, he thought one way, he thought another. Given his track record, it's probably there's some sort of money flowing in the same way that there's now a million dollars coming from Metta. So I don't know, we're all fucked.
Taina Brown: You know what though, like I'm just thinking now, I, that there was a clip of Toni Morrison. I think it was Toni Morrison a few years ago that like came across my Instagram feed. And it was her talking about how like the function of racism is to keep people busy defending anti-racism when really we should just be doing the creative work of building the world that we want to see, basically, like that was the gist. And I was just thinking, like, all these things, you know, and it's like, we spend so much energy, like, defending and defending, defending. And it's like, and not that we shouldn't, right? Like, not that we shouldn't be having this conversation about, you know, things that are happening, because I think this can be really generative and can also provide an outlet. But I also just want to, for myself, just want to remember that I don't have to fight everything. And that doesn't mean that I'm accepting everything. It just means re-prioritizing some of my energy to building the world that I actually want to see. If all of my energy is spent fighting, then there's no energy left for building. so yes, there is a fight. Yes, there are things to fight against. But I think on an individual level, like we all have to find that between how much of my energy is going towards fighting and how much of my energy is going towards building. And then when we come together in collectives, in community, then we have the energy for each other to build. Because if you've ever been at the end of your rope and then have your spouse come in and try you, or your child come in and try you, or a family member or a friend, you know that situation does not go well, right? So like, there's no room for us to build community when we're at the end of our road.
Becky Mollenkamp: Or if you've been at the end of the rope and had your partner come in and say, how can I help you and take some of that to give you some slack so that you can, you know, move back up your rope like, yeah, that you're right. I want I found that quote, I think. So let me tell me if I'm right here. But the Toni Morrison quote is the various serious, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over and over again your reason for being. And it reminds me a little bit of “On Tyranny,” which is going around a lot right now because of everything that's happening by Timothy Snyder. It's a short book with like 20 lessons about how to fight tyranny. And the number one lesson that everyone I've seen sharing on social media is do not obey in advance. And those things feel really related to me because to me, what I think obeying in advance looks like is letting them set the rules, letting them set the narrative, which is what the Democrats do over and over and over again, is continuing to allow the narrative to be set by somebody else, which is obeying by agreeing to those rules and saying, okay, I'll follow your rules. You're gonna make me sit here and educate you or be put in this defensive posture of always having to explain myself, reason why I show up this way, why I'm thinking this, instead of just doing the very real work of acting on those things that I believe. And I think that's what the not obeying in advance looks like saying, no. Yeah. I'm not being pulled into that conversation. I won't. I'm not going to engage in that. Yeah, because you're just trying to get me to obey to those rules, like to agree to those rules and I won't. So I love that reminder. I think that's really important for all of us to think about the ways that we are obeying in advance by agreeing to a different set of rules. And what does it look like then to say, I won't participate in that. I'm not going to let you set the tone here, set the rules here. I'm going to operate through my set of rules. And what does that look like? I need those reminders.
Taina Brown: I think that this is a good segue into something else that we, you know, wanted to talk about today, which is we have kind of been going back and forth a little bit for the past couple of weeks about what does messy liberation look like in the future. And when I was just talking to someone yesterday, if you don't know, we started this just for fun. this.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I hope it stays fun.
Taina Brown: This has been an experimental avenue or outlet for us. We didn't come in here with a growth strategy, a scale strategy, a marketing strategy, none of that. We don't have any of that. We are just like, we know when we record, we have some content that we put out to support the recording, and that's basically it. But I think we've both been in a place of like, well moving forward, what does this look like? Because now it feels, I don't know if it feels, does it feel heavier to you or, don't, cause I don't know if it feels heavier to me, but I kind of feel like it has been fun, but how can we like direct the fun a little bit better? But I also, I think a part of me feels like someone of a responsibility.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, when I say fun, I don't mean light, which I think maybe is what we think of with fun. guess maybe fun is not the right word. It's fulfilling. I think that's the word I mean. And that was my reason above all to do it is just I love having these kinds of conversations and I love having these kind of conversations with you specifically. And what's a way to do that besides just sitting around and doing it that feels productive getting into capitalism probably, even if we're not making any money on it, had no plans to, it's sort of like, well, let's have these conversations as a podcast because somehow that feels a little more productive than us just sitting and having the conversations, which is silly in a way. But also I think there's that piece of like, and if anyone else can learn from this, then it feels like I'm having more impact and impact does matter. But yeah, so I don't mean light and fun. And I do feel some responsibility, I guess. The biggest piece for me is like showing up and using our voice. I think this is a real time conversation. This is messy stuff. No, no, no, But I think what I'm coming to for me is like, when I think about the responsibility piece is just like, it's the using my voice. I think that's what this ultimately feels like my do not obey in advance piece is like how having spaces where I can show up and say, you want me to agree to a set of rules.
Taina Brown: This was not outlined. We are literally brainstorming right now.
Becky Mollenkamp: But I'm not going to, and not only am I not going to, I'm gonna shout from the rooftops however big my rooftop is, however far my voice carries, in this case, you know, maybe a hundred, couple hundred people are hearing us. And I wanna do that, I wanna shout. And the only thing that I feel with responsibility beyond that is, could we reach more people? And that would feel amazing because I do think what we talk about to me is important.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I can agree with all of that. so the behind the scenes back and forth that we've been having is like, maybe we can put out, well, and we kind of started doing this on the shorts on YouTube, like book recommendations, right? And then maybe having like some additional resources that we can send out to like maybe an email list or something like that. And then I came across the Instagram account Feminist. I think it's called Feminist.
Becky Mollenkamp: It is, it's Feminist, it's Blair Imani is one of the people who does that. I think she does it with someone else.
Taina Brown: And they put out basically, so you want to be an intersexual feminist. Here are some books that you should read. And when I saw that, I was like, that kind of feels like along the lines of what you and I have been talking about. so I think I'm really interested for the few people who do listen regularly. I'm really interested. I really want to know, what, how can this space be helpful for you?
Becky Mollenkamp: And we're not talking just to our partners who I'm sure are listening, but besides them.
Taina Brown: My one friend who texts me every week and I was like, my gosh, the podcast episode. Like what could we provide that could be helpful for you on your own learning journey as you are exploring what it means to be intersectional feminist, as you are building community? And I will say, I will say the caveat to that is that we want to, or I don't want to speak for you. so, but for me, I want to be able to provide resources for people in a way that helps them the best without burning me out the most. So there's a, there's an equilibrium there, right? So if you reach out and say, I want you to put together a six month whatever. We're not going to do that. I'm going to tell you right now, we're not going to do that.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, unless you're gonna pay us a lot of money.
Taina Brown: That would be something you would definitely have to pay for. But if you are interested in knowing what books to read, I don't know. What do you think?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, okay. So big picture, as long as we're just live brainstorming. I mean, when I think like, what could this thing become in big picture? What would it look like? I think the thing that would excite me is like, I see podcasts, Pod Save America or whatever.
Taina Brown: That would be fun.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I'm not saying we would ever have that kind of reach, but doing a live version of this on somewhat of a regular basis, maybe twice a year or something whether it's live in person, which would be like really the dream, right? That'd be so cool if we could have like a small group of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. But also just even virtual live ones where people could come like we did with the debate. Was it post debate? Whatever we did. Post-election?
Taina Brown: Post-election.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thank you. And that was awesome. We didn't have a lot of people who showed up live, but there were some and that was really cool. Like big picture, think being able to do more live interactive stuff with community that are interested in these topics and want to be a part of these conversations in a way so that they can show up and be in the chat and we can talk with them as we're doing these things or get their live feedback as we do it. That excites me. And I think the way to be able to build that community up is for us to have an email list because how else do we regularly get a hold of people? And what we talked about for that then would be what gets people incentivized to get on our email list beyond us just saying, hey, join our email list, which by the way, hey, join our email list. If you go to messyliberation.com, there is now a place to sign up for an email list that will get you nothing.
Taina Brown: We have a website now.
Becky Mollenkamp: But at some point we would like to use that for something. And we've talked about things like, again, maybe it's once a month, every book that we mentioned in the show that month will send you like our reading list, or maybe it's not even the ones we've mentioned, it's just what we've been reading or books we recommend, or we send. So maybe it's a reading list kind of thing. Maybe it's the things that we've just been researching, reading, thought leaders that we're exploring some YouTube links, whatever, but something that you would that would be helpful. Because I agree, like what would be helpful for people? So I don't know, that's kind where my head's at on like what it could be. Big picture be. And as far as monetization, because that's always something we think about, right? The avenues that come to my mind most immediately would be sponsorship, potential sponsorship of live events and or just the podcast. So if anyone's interested in that, hit us up. Although now you've heard, we don't have hundreds and thousands of listeners.
Taina Brown: We're micro micro influencers.
Becky Mollenkamp: So if you want to be micro influencing at a premium price, no. and then also maybe things like affiliate income only obviously because taking and I both operate very much out of values driven, wanting to be in alignment with our values. would mean we would only do. I think affiliate stuff, and I'm speaking not for you, but for me, but I think also you might agree if it was really values aligned, but the potential of maybe some values aligned, affiliate income would be another way we might make money. I don't know that I see, I don't know, who knows? Maybe there's other opportunities where we would do some container that we would charge for. But right now I think it's just more about how do we get, for me anyway, my vision for like 2025 is how do we see those numbers of listeners and viewers, YouTube, and there are people who are listening on the other platforms. How do we get those to start to grow more? And I think the things that we've doing, like sharing shorts on YouTube is definitely helping. I don't know what else though. And so we're thinking about that.
Taina Brown: That's funny because like, I was just talking to someone yesterday in the Feminist Pod Collective. Like we had a one-on-one. I offered to just kind of be a sounding board for her to like brainstorm through some ideas. And she asked me, what are your, what are y'all's goals for Messy Liberation? I was like, well, I don't know about Becky, but I would love to do in-person recordings, like pop-ups and stuff. Yeah, so we're definitely on the same page. I think impact, especially local community-driven impact, is really important for both of us. And so when we talk about growing our numbers, it's not growth just for the sake of growth. We want the growth to create impact.
Becky Mollenkamp: Growth, engagement, impact is what my mind would go through. like it's, yeah, more people, but I engaged people. And what does that look like? Well, folks, if you're listening, pretty pretty please email us and or leave a review or comment wherever you're able. So if you're on YouTube, leave a comment unless it's, you're one of these people who's just there to like call us names, we get enough of those. But for the rest of you, the people who are actually engaged in interest in what we're doing, leave us some comments, ask a question, share some feedback or rate or review on whatever platform you listen on and or email us, messyliberation at gmail.com. People aren't doing it. I know you're listening and we really would love that because to me, what's the point if people aren't engaged? We know we have people listening and watching. We would love to hear from you because I feel like that helps us know we're making an impact.
Taina Brown: We're not trying to build an audience. We're trying to really build an engaged community around the topics that we talk about. so if you're listening and you've listened to more than one episode, then we consider you part of the community, right? So we want to hear from you. We also have briefly talked about having, like we had Deon a few months ago, our friend Dee, and so we've talked about potentially having an actual guest roster at some point next year.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think it'd cool to maybe once a month, like one episode out of the four a month, we have someone join us for some thematic topical something I think would be cool. And maybe, I don't know, maybe those are the ones that are live. Maybe they're not, I don't know. Clearly, y'all, we did not go into this with a real big plan. But I do think it's great to think about moving forward what that might look like. So thanks for bringing it up.
Taina Brown: So, and if you have a guest that you would want us to talk to, let us know who that person is.
Becky Mollenkamp: We all know Tiana’s is adrienne maree brown. So if you're listening and have a connection, please help us make that happen. Let's make Tiana’s dreams come true. That would be amazing.
Taina Brown: 100%. Actually, have you, okay, this is total rabbit hole, or not rabbit hole, but just little bunny trail. What other podcasts do you listen to?
Becky Mollenkamp: I don't want to say because I listen to very few businessy ones. I listen to a mix of politics and comedy generally. So I listen to the majority report. I listen to Next Level, which is actually some former Republicans, some like the whatever they call themselves, the bulwark people who are trying to challenge the Republican Party to get a sense of what they're talking about. And then I listen to like You Made It Weird. I listen to the Seth Meyers Brothers podcast. I really like Seth Meyers. they do with his brother.
Taina Brown: I didn't know he had a podcast with his brother.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it's called Family Trips with the Meyers Brothers. And they're very cute. I love them. And I listened to Seth Meyers other podcasts that he's now doing with Andy Samberg and the Lonely Island guys. And they're going back and looking at all the Lonely Island digital shorts. And that's been very interesting. So anyway, that's my like I listen to a random mix of that kind of stuff, because I tend to get a little overwhelmed with other like businessy things and whatnot. Why?
Taina Brown: So I came across this fairly new podcast a few, a couple of months ago, I think it's called BRB crying. And it's, it's really, God, it's really sweet. It's two besties who really believe in crying. Like they're like, we people don't cry enough and every episode we're going to come on here and talk about something and cry.
Becky Mollenkamp: My God, that's hilarious. want, So I'm just gonna tell everybody, check the show notes wherever you're listening, look for the show notes or the in YouTube, the description, because I will have linked to all of these podcasts that we're talking about. And I'm gonna go check that one out because here's the truth. I actually would love to listen to our podcast just with other hosts. Like, you know what I mean? Like I like, I love this format. And these are the kinds of shows I like to listen to, but it's really hard to find them and them be decent. Not that I'm saying we're like the best at it and our production quality is not like the most amazing, but so I'm not even looking for that, but just people who seem to kind of at least I don't know that I find interesting and engaging and have a perspective. Yeah, I'm very excited about that show. So thank you, because that's the kind of stuff I would like to find more of is more I'm getting tired of interview format shows. The only ones I watch now are or listen to now are people that are interviewing celebrities that I find interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp: But I'm more interested in like being a fly on the wall of conversations about things that I find really interesting. those are shows are harder to find because the ones that make Apple's lists are pretty much all celebrity interview shows. And so that's probably why I fall down that a lot. So I'm so excited about BRB crying.
Taina Brown: Yeah, they're really cute. I so I was I, I came across him on Instagram, I think, and then I just like binged a bunch of their episodes. And I was like, I'm not a crier. And I was like, wouldn't it be fun if we invited them on our show and said, Hey, can you make us cry? Can we cry?
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that. I don't know if they would want to or how much listenership they have. if we haven't, ooh, I'm sorry, I put a cough drop in my mouth and I just really whistled on my listenership. I don't know if they'd want to come on our show, especially after that, but that would be so fun. I think they could get me to cry. I'm in a, especially right now, I'm in a state where I might be more receptive to tearing up, but it's a challenge because it's not like I'm a big fan of public displays of crying.
Taina Brown: I'm not a fan of any kind of public, outward public emotion. I cry maybe twice a year, honestly. Like, I'm just not a crier. Yes, yes. Yeah, no, no, no, no.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I'm not a big cryer. I tear up far often than that, but actual tears falling, that is not very common for me either. Yeah. Because I stop myself short. I will feel the tears welling up and then I am the, I'm like a swallower of emotions. Not healthy.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I think sometimes I swallow my emotions. I think more often than not, I rationalize my emotions. And so I kind of have this disassociative kind of process. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, like, it's OK. It'll be OK. Mm-hmm. Gulp, gulp, gulp. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: So you start talking yourself out of the emotions basically. Yeah, that's another good approach. I just swallow them. I'm just like, can't do that. I'm a stuffer. You'll go up and then I just stuff, stuff, stuff until I emotionally vomit because there's no more room for them. And that happens like maybe once or twice a year and you don't want to be around when it does. But anyway, I love that. If anyone knows any other kinds of shows that fit the bill for what we're talking about here or that would be great collaborative partners. That would be really cool. I love that idea too of like, what might it look like to have some collaborative podcasts where we're both broadcasting out in a way, like somebody who shares a similar format. So it would make sense for them to, for us both to release it on ours. I love that idea. All right. I don't know how much people love the behind, I don't know. I'd be very curious to know. Do you like these behind the scenes kind of? Yeah. Conversations or was this like really annoying? I would love to know and definitely love feedback on what you want to hear more of, less of, all of that. So messieliberation.gmail.com or leave a comment if you're watching this on YouTube. And we'll be back one more time live-ish, meaning we're recording kind of in real time before the holidays. And then we have a couple of episodes that we've banked that we're going to release during the holidays. So please know that when you hear those, we are resting and being with family and taking some time off at the end of the year, those were pre-recorded. And then we'll be back again, live-ish, right after the new year to hopefully make 2025 even more spectacular and increase that engagement.
Taina Brown: Yes and more messy.