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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00]
[00:00:53] Sonia: Welcome back to Sisters in Sobriety. Today, we have a very special guest with us, Timothy [00:01:00] Gordon. Tim is not only a passionate social worker, trainer, and international presenter and author, but also an expert in acceptance and commitment therapy, or ACT, with a mission to offer evidence based psychotherapy that helps
[00:01:15] Sonia: others live full and abundant lives, Tim has made a significant impact in the mental health field.
[00:01:22] Kathleen: is an attachment and trauma specialist working with both adults and children, including those that have suffered abuse. He is an award winning author, having co authored the act approach, a comprehensive guide for acceptance and commitment therapy and the act deck 55 acceptance and commitment therapy practices to build connection, find focus and reduce stress.
[00:01:43] Kathleen: He's also contributed to a textbook on holistic healing and has published numerous peer reviewed articles.
[00:01:49] Sonia: Beyond his writing, Tim is renowned for his experiential approach to training professionals. He's taught ACT at McMaster University and presents workshops around the [00:02:00] world where he's known for his passion and commitment to ensuring everyone has access to the resources they need to not just succeed, but to thrive.
[00:02:09] Kathleen: So I am personally so excited to have Tim on this show today to discuss his work. I think if you've been listening to this podcast for a little while, you know, I'm a big fan of ACT and I'm a big fan of Tim's. His approach to therapy and how ACT can be a powerful tool, in addressing addiction is very welcome to this podcast.
[00:02:28] Kathleen: So welcome Tim. We're so happy you can join us.
[00:02:31] Tim: Thank you for having me. This is really cool. I'm a big fan of the two of you, actually.
[00:02:35] Kathleen: Oh, thank
[00:02:36] Sonia: Yeah, we're so excited. So Tim, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to become a social worker?
[00:02:42] Tim: Um, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of people who have a very personal connection to this work. And it's, it's why they choose to do this work. Uh, I mean, it's why the two of you choose to do this podcast. Um, so for me, I was, uh, I was adopted and my [00:03:00] parents were, Incredible people who adopted me, and they, they, they let me know that I was adopted, but that was something that I, I struggled with understanding as a child.
[00:03:10] Tim: Um, and so I had some therapy and felt that it wasn't, I wasn't talking to people who were really connecting with me and making sense out of my experience. Um, but who would instead? It's funny, I'm just realizing now, this is like one of my biggest pet peeves in life is when somebody. infers things about you or they draw parallels about your behavior when it's not really informed by your experience.
[00:03:34] Tim: You know, talk, being talked about rather than being worked with. And, uh, as a kid, I just, I knew that there had to be a better way. It was something that I wanted personally. And, uh, that's really what led me to pursue this work. Um, I worked for the Children's Aid Society for a long time, worked with traumatized children and Myself became a bit obsessional, which is [00:04:00] also a theme in my life, with trying to find The most meaningful methodology.
[00:04:07] Tim: So, you know, I, I started, um, I really fell in love with like Carl Rogers and tried exploring like EMDR working with DID, um, even doing like some hypnosis type of work and what led me to, to, to really kind of like sink into, uh, social work itself was realizing that what truly mattered to me was making a difference.
[00:04:30] Kathleen: To someone and that the people that I knew in my life who were the most fulfilled, the people that I knew in my life, who had the most abundant lives were people who were making a difference in the lives of other people. So that led you to that place, to become a social worker. And so, I'm going to switch it already to ACT, to acceptance and commitment therapy. What guided you, or what drove you to learn more about ACT, and then really truly [00:05:00] become quite an expert in the field of acceptance and commitment
[00:05:06] Tim: Um, so what led me to act was. I was working on my master's thesis. I was very content. I had done this intensive, um, training in the client centered approach. Cause I'd really fallen in love with Carl Rogers. And you have to keep in mind from a young age. I knew that I wanted to do clinical work, but I wasn't sure what that would look like.
[00:05:28] Tim: Um, and so I'm working on this master's thesis and where I'm using, uh, yoga as an alternative to meditation. I've been meditating regularly,since I was 13. Um, but noticed that meditation doesn't work for a lot of people. Uh, but yoga does, right? Because if I tell you to close your eyes and attend to the inflow and outflow of your breath, it's easy to get distracted and wrapped up.
[00:05:54] Tim: Whereas if I tell you to pause, and let's just do this ourselves, if you don't mind, if we just [00:06:00] pause, maybe sit upright, find a little length through your spine, Press through the crown of your head, tuck your chin. And if you just allow yourself to just roll your shoulders up as you breathe in, roll your shoulders forward and then breathe out, rolling your shoulders down.
[00:06:16] Tim: Do you notice how much easier it is to be in your body and to just be present with what you're experiencing?
[00:06:21] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:06:22] Tim: it. That little bit of movement, the invitation to focus on the breath work. So I had done the primary investigation for my thesisAnd I found this paper from the eighties, which I knew I probably would have to find something more updated by this author. I'd never heard of him before called Stephen Hayes. And the paper was making sense out of spirituality. And it just, there was something that clicked. So I'm looking up Stephen Hayes and I find this thing called psychological flexibility. And I mean like, you know, yoga, like we're all that like flexibility, right? So I'm like, Hey, this, this might fit. And the theory, it fit perfectly.
[00:06:58] Tim: I fell in love with [00:07:00] Steve Hayes's work, but I had no idea what he was talking about, no idea how to recreate it. So I buy learning act.
[00:07:09] Tim: I remember reading Learning Act and I had this tradition where I would like, I'd highlight the things that seemed important, but I would underline things that I didn't understand. Most of what I was like, I reflect back on the book. Most of what I was reading was underlined.
[00:07:23] Tim: And I literally cried and said to myself, I am too stupid to learn act.
[00:07:29] Tim: once I started to wrap my head around this, this radical behavioral science. It started to make sense to me and
[00:07:36] Tim: So. Deepening my understanding of ACT led me to a place where I wanted to explain it to clinicians and make sense out of it and make it applicable. But also get people fired up about it and show them how cool the science is, how empowering it is.
[00:07:51] Tim: What do you think makes sense about it to you and to your clients? I know that's a big question and
[00:07:58] Tim: there's a lot of. [00:08:00] A lot of the issues that I was experiencing with clinical work was either wonderful sound bites and ideas that weren't immediately effective, that, that couldn't actually guide our behavior on a day to day basis.
[00:08:15] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:08:16] Tim: Concepts that just didn't, didn't click and weren't, weren't usable, but also seemed to rely on very long term intensive treatments So if we, if we really come to like, so what is it about ACT that's really clutch? Like, how does it, how does it cut through the noise? very first like core tenet of ACT is all behavior makes sense. Everything, even the most what we would call maladaptive behavior is an adaptation in a situation and it makes sense.
[00:08:49] Tim: And so rather than judging people, Rather than putting them now, rather than evaluating their behavior as maladaptive or inappropriate, [00:09:00] instead, what we do is say, how does this make sense? How does this behavior work in this situation? What is this person getting from it?
[00:09:06] Tim: How is this behavior working for this person? At what point did this behavior become unworkable for this person? Would they agree that it's unworkable?
[00:09:15] Tim:
[00:09:15] Sonia: Tim, for those like me who are not familiar, could you explain acceptance and commitment therapy and how it differs from other therapeutic approaches?
[00:09:26] Tim: Okay, so acceptance and commitment therapy is about helping people to show up to their experience as it is. Not as our minds tell us it is, not as our GP say it is, right?
[00:09:39] Tim: Not as our society says it is, as we experience it.
[00:09:44] Tim: Let's, let's have some real talk here for a second. So I want you to imagine, my son is born, he's asleep in his crib. I've just, you know, finished changing his diaper and feeding him. And he's got that,little milk mustache. And I've got my hand on his back and he's breathing.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Tim: I can feel his body moving as he breathes. And I have the thought, I am gonna fuck this kid up. I don't know how to be loved, which means I don't know how to love him.
[00:10:13] Tim: And the best thing that I can probably do for this person is get out of their life. I'll financially support him and his mom, but like, he shouldn't be anywhere near me. Rather than saying to myself, well, damn it, Tim, you're lovable. Your friends love you. Your parents chose you. They adopted you. I have tons of foster siblings who affirm how important I've been in their lives, I love this little new person in our world with all my heart. And I'm afraid that something that I would do would hurt him, that there's something wrong with me.
[00:10:53] Tim: And rather than cutting and running, rather than turning away from that pain, holding that pain. And know that that's a very normal [00:11:00] human reaction. But there's so much growth that can happen. In just that little bit of space and that little bit of quiet there, if we can tolerate that pain, if we can allow it to be here,
[00:11:14] Kathleen: We don't have a delete key. I can't delete my attachment, fears, and anxiety. And because we can't delete it, our attempts to avoid and to push away actually reinforce it and make it more powerful. Sonia, don't you wish that Tim could have done, like, intensive therapy on our ex husbands? Right? Like, don't you, we could have got Tim in a room with your brother, my ex husband, and your ex husband, and been like, Tim, go.
[00:11:43] Tim: It's not too late, you
[00:11:44] Kathleen: go. It's too late, my friend. It's too late. At least
[00:11:50] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:11:51] Sonia: what you said hit Kathleen and I both really hard because we know, someone who did that. And so, how do you not [00:12:00] dwell or get stuck or even act on that? feeling what is the difference between that and like honoring the
[00:12:10] Kathleen: And then taking action from it,
[00:12:12] Kathleen: So Sonia, you said, how do you not dwell? How do you not get stuck on that? Right. If I am with you right now, Sonia, and I go to throw you, Um, I got a Kleenex box here, okay? So if I throw my Kleenex box at you, not violently, but if I throw it to you, you're going to catch it or you're going to like put your hand up to block it, right? There's this, there's this visceral reaction that you have. Rather than saying getting stuck or dwelling is the psychology of the abnormal, which it absolutely is not. Instead, what we need to recognize is there are people who are trained where their visceral reaction to pain, emotional,is to dwell on it, is to become [00:13:00] obsessional with it. There's other people where they had been trained to say, yeah, I don't feel that shit.
[00:13:07] Tim: What are you talking about?
[00:13:08] Kathleen: Mm
[00:13:09] Tim: I joke about this in couples therapy all the time. It's a rather sexist joke, but like, you know, women had access to this incredibly broad repertoire of responding and understanding their emotions. Most men have happy, horny, hungry, angry.
[00:13:26] Tim: They've been trained that this is a nail and here's how I hammer that nail. So the name of the game is starting where that person is at. Let's, let's take something that therapists do all the time that drives me nuts. How does that feel? How do you feel? It's a, it's a, it's a lovely question, but think about that question for a second. Let's break it down into behavioral tasks.
[00:13:51] Tim: What happens when you're working with like happy, horny, hungry, angry, and that's it,It's extremely limited.
[00:13:57] Tim: _ Do they_ have the repertoire to be able to understand what we're [00:14:00] asking to be able to answer it effectively and to be able to trust that we can do something meaningful with that?
[00:14:05] _ _
[00:14:05] Tim: Um, we've talked about generational trauma, right? Let's, let's look at that as an example, right? So What were you taught by the people who raised you about vulnerability, about your emotions, about how you make sense out of being like, let's say even in this context, I can't even tell you how many people come to me not knowing that they're struggling with issues related to trauma. They're starting to hit a wall with their health. And I'll just use the adverse childhood experiences questionnaire to kind of screen for these things, right? It's quick. It's a 10 item true false. And I'm looking, I'm like, you endorse eight out of 10 of these items.
[00:14:47] Tim: That's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. And statistically the more that you got, the more that leads to health issues later on in life, here's the health issues that are associated with this stuff.Does that make sense, Sonia? [00:15:00] Like starting from where people are at.
[00:15:01] Sonia: It's interesting. I work in prisons and we use the we use the ace score In prisons and it is like an interesting predictor, right? And so Yeah, no, it does make sense to me
[00:15:13] Tim: Can I get, can I give you a hard time? Yeah. So, emotions that they've numbed, but what if those emotions didn't get to grow? They didn't get to have a repertoire,So they're numbing very early development.
[00:15:28] Tim: Really basic stuff.
[00:15:30] Sonia: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I think I'm stunted at when I started drinking, right? And so I think that I didn't develop necessarily, um, yeah, a repertoire of feelings. I just kind of stopped at like anxiety, insecurity. And then when the alcohol, um, worked for those two things, you're kind of like, great, I'm done here.
[00:15:51] Sonia: And so, yeah, I agree. I think there is some. emotional stunting and it's not just numbing. you're preventing yourself [00:16:00] from even like Kathleen she talks about the emotions wheel and I didn't know nausea was like an emotion or I guess a symptom of an emotion.
[00:16:08] Sonia: And I have nausea a lot when something like terrible is going on. And so, yeah, I think you, yeah, I do think though, in a sense, there are some emotions I never. Yeah, like I don't think I ever felt like deep like love until I got sober or like things like that Yeah, or I was scared to right? So yeah
[00:16:27] Tim: I love it. Yeah,
[00:16:29] Kathleen: I think we might transition our conversation more focused on addiction if that's okay with you, Tim.
[00:16:36] Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I'm here to hang out with the two of you.
[00:16:39] Sonia: how do you approach working with clients who are struggling with addiction and do you approach it differently?
[00:16:45] Tim: So where I start is, um, interviewing, right? Getting, getting to know somebody. So really the, I'm going to keep it as simple as possible. What's important to you in your life? Like what actually matters to you? Who matters? [00:17:00] What are the things in life that matter to you? What qualities do you want to be about? In pursuing the people, the things in life that matter to you. Okay. What makes it hard to engage with that? What's it feel like when you're engaged with what's important to you?
[00:17:16] Tim: That's really painful when you're doing your best to avoid and control it.
[00:17:20] Tim: here is we start looking at pain that people experience and how they adapt to the pain. So somebody starts describing cycles of behavior. Okay. So I'm, you know, I'm at home. I'm, Just feeling like lonely, I'm isolated, I don't have anything to do tonight, and I'm sitting down on my couch and I'm playing my PlayStation.
[00:17:46] Tim: I grab a big glass, I fill it to the brim with ice, put in, you know, some Canadian whiskey, a little bit of Diet Coke, I'm sitting on the couch, I'm drinking, and I'm starting to get [00:18:00] horny. I'm thinking, I'm gonna text my, my friend Krista, see if she wants to, you know, what's up girl? Yeah, you up? You wanna hang out?
[00:18:08] Tim: And Krista gets really pissed at me, and she, she writes me back, and she's like, What the fuck? I told you not to text me when you're drinking. We're not gonna be hooking up anymore, and, and I'm gonna be blocking you, and we ain't gonna be friends anymore if you're gonna keep doing this kind of crap, because I've told you to stop.
[00:18:23] Tim: So now I feel like shit. And I know what's gonna make me feel better, and that's Mickey D's. Because, I'm gonna slip down to Mickey D's, They're gonna make a Big Mac for me, fresh, it's gonna be hot, then I get a big Diet Coke, light on the ice, and I'm gonna feel all kinds of better. And I go home, I take some laxatives, because I feel lethargic and disgusting, and I fucking hate myself for binging on some Mickey D's, and I pass out, and maybe the whole thing starts again tomorrow, maybe the whole thing starts again in a couple days.
[00:18:57] Tim: So we look for these patterns in people's [00:19:00] behavior. And rather than saying like, dude, do you see how screwed you are? . Instead, what is this about? Genuinely like, very curious. How is this working? What is maintaining this in your life? What's it like when you're mid cycle?* *
[00:19:17] Tim: I want you to be on your couch. I want you to have your PlayStation controller in your hand. What are you playing these days? Ah, come on Timmy. I got, you know, I got to play my grand theft auto. Okay. So you're on the couch, you're playing grand theft auto.
[00:19:27] Tim: Are you entertained? Yeah. Okay. But you're feeling lonely. You're feeling isolated. So that's the moment that you decide to get that big ass glass and you fill it to the brim with ice and you're going to put in some Canadian whiskey, a little bit of diet Coke. That's the moment where drinking just makes sense right there, right?
[00:19:46] Tim: Yeah, man. Absolutely. Okay. Hang on. It works though, right? Yeah, but I, I don't know. I shouldn't be drinking. Like, well, you can say I shouldn't be drinking all you want, but it works. We can't change the fact that that actually makes you feel better in that moment. [00:20:00] Yeah. So what is this texting Krista to hook up thing about?
[00:20:04] Tim: Well, I don't know. I'm, I'm embarrassed, man. Don't, don't be embarrassed. It's cool. Share with me. What's that about? You're horny. You want to hook up. Okay. Are you actually into Krista? You're telling me loneliness is a thing. Isolation. Is this how you're trying to like meet some of your attachment needs, right?
[00:20:20] Tim: Get a little bit of skin to skin contact. What is that? You'll notice that we dive into the minutiae of people's behavior and yeah, it can feel really uncomfortable.
[00:20:30] Tim: but like game time decisions are different when you are in the shit, And that's where we want to go with our clients, right?
[00:20:38] Tim: We want to deepen their understanding of how their behavior works. okay, so you got these painful feelings. What is this connected to? That's actually important to you. What kind of connection are you missing in your life?
[00:20:51] Tim: Do you have outlets for romance, for intimacy, for secure attachment? Oh, well, you know, [00:21:00] I've been neglecting my dog, Lucy. What? You have a dog? Yeah, she's really cute. She's just like golden doodle and I usually like leave her with my sister a lot because like I work a lot from home and can't really take care of Lucy properly.
[00:21:13] Tim: Okay. So, so hang on, hang on here. You've got a sister and you've got a dog. Yeah. How often are you connecting with your sister? How do you connect him with Lucy, your dog? Oh yeah, no, not often. So the little bit of connection that you have is texting Krista when you're properly buzzed looking to hook up.
[00:21:33] Tim: Yeah. Is this working? Is this sustainable? No, no. I think that's why I'm here. Okay. So if you keep doing what you've always done, you're going to keep getting what you've always been getting, right? So we've got to figure out how do we, bring your attention to this cycle. It keeps happening and it will continue to happen. how do we actually focus on getting out of the cycle by focusing on [00:22:00] What is important to you? What are the new behaviors that we can grow in your life? What are the commitments that we can make to doing things that would actually bring you closer to what you value? Do you see how simple that is?
[00:22:10] Tim: it seems like exploring, tracking the behavior, the cycle with the clients to the point where they then themselves see the cycle very clearly.
[00:22:19] Kathleen: I see that I might be lonely and that I'm reaching for that whiskey or the Mickey D's or whatever. And so you see that, how then do you take someone who can see their cycle and wants to make change? So what are some examples of like, even like tangible skills that someone might use to To sort of, to, to help them shift that cycle.
[00:22:47] Kathleen: To break the
[00:22:47] Tim: So, so number one, it's all about seeing the things that bring about that cycle
[00:22:54] Tim:
[00:22:54] Kathleen: how that applies to this situation is I'm not going to say to this client, You need [00:23:00] to stop this. Just stop it. Okay. Two words. S T O P. New word. I T. Stop it. Like, no, that, that's not
[00:23:11] Tim: So pay attention to it.
[00:23:12] Tim: Notice what you do, create that space between stimulus and response. And once you create that space, once you can catch it, that's where you can influence your behavior.
[00:23:20] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:23:22] Tim: I'm thinking about, I'm going to call him Mike, the guy that you had sitting on the couch with his PlayStation. Yeah, getting McDonald's. Um, so can you share a little bit about what
[00:23:34] Tim: We are all Mike.
[00:23:35] Sonia: can you share a story with us about a client that you had where ACT really made a significant difference when they were dealing with addiction?
[00:23:45] Tim: So, um, this is a client who I have permission to share this story and I have a video of me working with this person. This was, I think 2016.
[00:23:59] Tim: So [00:24:00] I'm working with this, um, duty person and, uh, they get diagnosed with a substance use disorder and a couple of other things. And, um, I did a session with them. It went well. I gave them their homework. They come back and they look like hell. Like they have just been dragged through it. Okay. And, uh, it had been a couple of weeks since I'd seen them.
[00:24:29] Tim: And he's like, you know, I, I like lost count at about nine beers and I got drunk. And he's not making eye contact with me and he's shaking his head and he's really upset. So. Laughter. And like a total autopilot insensitive dumbass, I say, Well, was the drinking about your values or was it about trying to escape something painful? And
[00:24:53] Tim: He gets in my face, he puts his finger right in my face and he says, do not condescend me with your [00:25:00] therapist bullshit. You know, I'm an alcoholic.
[00:25:02] Tim: You know, I'm not supposed to be drinking and you know, I'm going to lose my marriage I just said, I'm so sorry. I don't know what's going on with me today. That was a total autopilot move and I hope you'll give me another chance. He flops back down in the chair, won't look at me and says, whatever.
[00:25:23] Tim: And I go, okay, beer number one, when and where were you? And he says to me, I got a job off base, pouring concrete. It was cheap wing night.
[00:25:37] Tim: And so I'm going to join the crew. I'm going to go out. And that's where you had beer number one. Yeah, come on. What goes better with a pound of salty spicy wings than a ice cold Corona with a lime locked and loaded right in the barrel.
[00:25:48] Tim: Okay. Beer number one. What was that about though? Hanging out with the boys, socializing, chilling, enjoying your Okay. Beer number two. [00:26:00] We're eating, we're laughing, we're drinking. Okay. Beer number three. Well, it's starting to get cool out. I noticed everybody's inside. That's like they, there was a memo. That everyone got that I didn't get. They all head inside. They're sitting at the bar. Now they're drinking at the bar. There's some good looking people. Everybody's laughing. Everybody's having a good time.
[00:26:21] Tim: And I'm sitting on the patio like a fucking loser, so I hammered down. That sounds like avoidance, my guy. Yeah, Tim, that's avoidance.
[00:26:31] Tim: I said, did you notice the transition from beer one and beer two to beer three? The change of control. It wasn't about, I'm chilling with the boys on the patio, having a beer, enjoying my ice cold Corona with a lime locked and loaded in the barrel because I have these salty spicy wings. It went from chilling, socializing, enjoying my food to I feel like a loser.
[00:26:59] Tim: [00:27:00] Everyone is hanging out. I'm sitting on the patio as it's getting cold out by myself like a loser. Did you feel that shift? Did you notice it? No, not until we're talking, dude. When I told you that I wanted you to notice your experience, this is what I was talking about.
[00:27:16] Tim: I needed a bit of a wake up call this morning and it sounds like Tuesday night sitting on the patio with the boys having a beer. It sounds like you needed one too, but you weren't paying attention to your experience. Do you see the value behind this now? My guy? Yeah. Tim. All right.
[00:27:31] Kathleen: So okay, so What if someone comes to you and says to him, I don't know how To pay attention in the sense that
[00:27:38] Tim: Yeah.
[00:27:39] Kathleen: I just I'm like a robot. I don't think I just pick up the drink I just like get up from the couch. I go make a drink. How do I? Or they say like I I can't even get that pause like what happens what what can?
[00:27:55] Tim: this happens all the time with adults. It happens all the time with children. So one of the, one of the [00:28:00] things that we can do is create ways to remind ourselves.
[00:28:03] Tim: I might do something as simple as I'll grab like sticky notes and we might like create, like, I'll do like little, doodles. I usually draw this, um, I have this little, like this little guy that I call plum. He's just like this little, like chill, little caricature that I make is always meditating,
[00:28:21] Tim: Um, and what I'll do is I'll draw over and over and over and over again on a sticky, uh, sticky pad paper. And for kids, I'll say like, when you wake up in the morning, what's the first thing you see? And they're like, Oh, well, like I see my bed. I'm like, okay, I want you to put this little sticky on a place on your bed where when you wake up in the morning, you're going to see it.
[00:28:38] Tim: And that's what we do, right? so you're going to wake up and you do whatever you do, but you have to do it really slow.
[00:28:43] Tim: And then once you've done that task.
[00:28:44] Tim: There, Move on and then we put the next sticky note the next place. Okay, so we're gonna put it like let's say underneath your toothbrush So you're gonna do your toothbrush, but you're gonna do it really slow and on purpose and only brush your teeth You're not gonna check yourself out in the mirror.
[00:28:58] Tim: You're not gonna also like do your [00:29:00] hair, right?So we create this system where we have these like mindful reminders if you will Kind of peppered throughout people's lives to do something slow, to do something on purpose, to be in contact with your experience. Yeah,
[00:29:14] Kathleen: Thank you for that really, that's a great practical tip, I think for, for people as well.how to be with that in the sense of in that moment.
[00:29:22] Kathleen: What is this moment, right?
[00:29:24] Kathleen: I, as a part of my like, trying to like reclaim my health, like I rollerblade every day. And this isn't a judgment, like. I see this guy walking this beautiful English Golden Retriever, and I see him every day, and he walks this beautiful dog every day on the most beautiful, breathtaking trail, and he is on his phone every fucking time.
[00:29:49] Tim: It's so true. Like I just see people and I live, you know, north of Toronto. I live where there are beautiful trails and God, I think nature is such a healer. Um, [00:30:00] and, and there are people just like on their phone, just on their phone the whole time, it's like, Oh my gosh, just be with what this is
[00:30:13] Tim: The WHO says like, The next major health crisis that we're going to have to deal with is depression.
[00:30:21] Tim: There are not enough professionals to treat this very serious issue. And I think it's, I think it's easy to say that our addiction to this stuff that fits in our hands, right? Like these devices and social media. I think it's really easy to say that that is the culprit. Um, But our society has been moving really at a high rate of speed and moving really quickly towards this.
[00:30:45] Tim: Like, how many people do you know that'll just let you sit in a moment of silence and just be present with one another and find the spaces between words?
[00:30:53] Kathleen: Well, I think you hit something on, on the head there because as you know, Tim, and, and our listeners know, I think by now I [00:31:00] mostly see couples, and what I see so often in my practice is this. immense loneliness and marriages and relationships because it's not necessarily just about the social media or our phones.
[00:31:18] Kathleen: It's about we no longer know how to connect with each other. We no longer know how to be vulnerable with each other and that is happening. In relationships, like what you would think is potentially one of our deepest connections with someone, the loneliness can be so, so severe because what is supposed to be, in quotes, our deepest connection no longer feels connected.
[00:31:44] Tim: Yeah.
[00:31:46] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:31:47] Tim: That's heartbreaking,
[00:31:48] Kathleen: Isn't it? I think so too. I think so too.
[00:31:52] Tim: especially when we know that who we are,
[00:31:55] Tim: It's allowed us to do this, to be in three completely different [00:32:00] geographical locations, to talk about things that aren't happening in front of us right now.
[00:32:05] Tim: And yet it also has fueled this disconnection. I see what you
[00:32:11] Kathleen: so Tim,
[00:32:12] Kathleen: do you have any new projects or initiatives or books coming up? What, what do you have coming up?
[00:32:17] Kathleen: Yeah. I'm actually, I'm working on a, uh, a new self help book, which is really cool. Very, very deep. Um, so that'll be, that'll be out very soon. Um, we're also developing a new program to address deficits in, um, men, especially around relationship and parenting behavior. Um, yeah, so it's an, it's an act based project aimed at reducing domestic violence.
[00:32:44] Kathleen: Um, psychological aggression and especially increasing secure attachment and, uh, and parenting behavior. So that's, that's been absorbing a lot of my time,
[00:32:55] Tim: And we've got another baby on the way.
[00:32:57] Kathleen: Oh do you really? Oh my [00:33:00] gosh. Congratulations.
[00:33:02] Tim: Thanks. I'm really excited.
[00:33:04] Kathleen: Wow!
[00:33:05] Tim: like literally any day now.
[00:33:06] Sonia: Oh my god!
[00:33:07] Kathleen: gosh! That is amazing. I'm very happy for you. And it's been such a pleasure to have you on, Tim. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us.
[00:33:18] Tim: Thanks for doing this with me. I'm really honored to be here. The two of you are amazing, and I would argue that you're already practicing lots of act.
[00:33:26] Sonia: hmm.
[00:33:27] Kathleen: Thank you. And thanks for listening to Sisters in Sobriety, and we'll see you next week. [00:34:00]