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August 2023 marked the 50th anniversary of Cindy Campbell's infamous back-to-school party and the birth of Hip-Hop. Back To Reading Credits is a 6-episode audiovisual series from BRIC Radio celebrating the first 50 years of Hip-Hop and the people behind the curtain who drive the culture. On the show, BRIC President Wes Jackson interviews scholars, artists, executives, thought leaders, and other unsung heroes of the movement about how they shaped the look, feel, and flow of Hip-Hop, and about how Hip-Hop shapes us.
BACK TO READING CREDITS - EPISODE 3 - NADIRAH SIMMONS
PUB: 04.24.24
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
[MUSIC BED: Slow, heavy beat]
[INTRO]
[VO] Wes Jackson (WJ): Welcome to Back To Reading Credits – a new, 6-part audio-visual podcast from BRIC Radio celebrating the 50th Anniversary of Hip-Hop, and the people behind the curtain who drive the culture. I’m your host, BRIC President Wes Jackson.
[FADE MUSIC]
WJ: For episode three of Back To Reading Credits, we have Nadirah Simmons in the studio…
Nadirah Simmons (NS): Hey!
WJ: Welcome welcome! Nadirah Simmons is a digital content creator committed to preserving Black history, Hip-Hop history, and pop culture. Nadirah’s career in television began as an intern at VH1 and The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. In 2016, Nadirah joined the digital team at The Late Show with Stephen Colbert where worked for six years and produced bits with celebrities like Issa Rae, Method Man, Cedric The Entertainer, H.E.R., and Robert DeNiro. That's a pretty cool list, not even gonna front [laughter]
NS: Ooh yes! Thank you.
WJ: In 2018, Nadirah created The Gumbo. Through content, events and the dissemination of vital information on developments in the culture, The Gumbo aims to support, reframe and re-energize women and their relationship with Hip-Hop. I know why we chose you as our guest. [laughter]
NS: Thank you. Yay.
WJ: We'll get to that in a second. In January 2024, Nadirah released her first book: First Things First: Hip-Hop Ladies Who Changed the Game. First Things First (available now!) is a celebration of the achievements of women in Hip-Hop who broke down barriers and broke the mold.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Welcome Nadirah.
NS: Thank you for having me. That was a great intro. I loved that!
[NADIRAH SIMMONS INTERVIEW - PART 1]
WJ: You know, this season, our first season, is about, particularly about women in Hip-Hop and the untold stories. And the motivation was Cindy Campbell, right? Who -- August 11th '73, people like to talk about Kool Herc and the party, I love Herc, and Herc is, you know, all praise do, but I'm the child of Cindy, who was the entrepreneur organizer, the one who created the structure. But what is your entry point? Like how do you see yourself as a descendant of all of these powerful folks?
NS: Yeah, I mean, Cindy, she's the first chapter in the book. So even thinking about her being kind of like the introduction to this thing that I'm going to talk about, I think about growing up in Jersey. My parents always say, my dad would always say, like, I used to ride around in the back of the car, you'd be like 2 or 3 and you knew, like all the words, the Imaginary Players, Reasonable Doubt. He's like, "You just knew it." He's like, "That's when I knew you were going to be mad talkative."
WJ: That's a complicated song.
NS: It was kind of crazy.
WJ: Yeah, that's impressive.
NS: Yeah. But, you know, I think about stuff like that. I think about being with my mom and listening to Mary J. And Hip-Hop soul, and then her doing my hair on Sundays and watching Queen Latifah. I think about my dad. He owned a Hip-Hop clothing store, so he had all the different, like, brands. And I would be in the store with him. There'd be a DJ. They do like custom Air Forces. So... That was in South Jersey, yeah.
WJ: Oh, yeah. What was the name of the store?
NS: It was called 609, which is our area code. Yeah, so he had that for a few years. And then my uncle, who owns a barbershop as well, I would like work in the barbershop, sweep, like helped like do the register. And I would hear the rap debates and there was a salon in the back. So I would get, I would really get -- I just learned so much from a very young age where my family is so Hip-Hop. And because of our town in South Jersey, the proximity to Philly, my grandfather being from Philly, very big on Philadelphia soul, so I got really into like sampling and just knowing the connections and knowing who comes from where. So whenever I would learn about something, I always had to figure out, "Alright, how is this connected? Who is the foremother, forefather, foreperson?" And it's just been like ingrained in me from the beginning.
WJ: Maybe that gets me to my first question, because you do have, what I was so excited when we first met was, yeah, this really academic, archivist…
NS: Yeah.
WJ: It started in journalism, is that correct?
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Okay, so talk to me about how you gravitated towards that discipline.
NS: I loved like writing and telling stories and to the point of loving kind of history. I always... I'm like a nerd. Like I love having context for things. I've kind of always been like that. Like I've always wanted to make sure people have the facts, and people understand the history, and people know the implications of certain things. And I think in college I'll never forget this. But there was something that kind of switched for me. I took a class on, I think it was broadcast journalism, and there was a point where we had to figure out how we would cover... Not to, you know, make it sad, but how to cover a school shooting. And I knew for me, it would be hard for me to not have an opinion. Like in journalism oftentimes you give the facts and let the people get the stuff. But I knew with certain things, stuff like that, and with music and the things that I enjoyed, I wanted to be able to offer analysis. I wanted to be able to have opinions and have thoughts. So that's kind of when I knew even me ending up at The Daily Show as an intern or ending up at the Late Show is being able to take news and kind of offer my perspective. And I knew that was the angle I wanted to go in. Entertainment-wise, and also when it comes to music, I love laying out the facts, but I want you to understand why these people are important. I want to tell you why I think they're important.
WJ: Right.
NS: I want you to get how they connect to me and people who look like me, and people who have the same experience as me. So I did do journalism for a little bit. I definitely have those journalism skills. That's what my degree is in. Shout out to Rutgers University. [laughter] But yeah, I just knew like this, this angle, and it's still journalism, but I knew it was a little shift, a little pivot.
WJ: It's an interesting take, this idea that journalism was almost limiting because of the commandment to be objective. Right?
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Is that a fair way to say it?
NS: Yeah, and I think journalism is -- don't get me wrong -- it's super important. And the ways in which it functions in so many different spaces is important. Like it's not for you to be subjective all of the time. But I know me the way I was raised, the perspectives that I have is just like, "Girl, are you going to be able to...
WJ: Yeah [laughter]
NS: ...write about something I have no thoughts? Like be honest with yourself. Would you rather be in a space where you'll see something happen on the news, and the host will get up there and say 'This ain't right, y'all.'" I just knew like that for myself and even the way my parents raised me, like I want to go to work and enjoy it. I don't want to come home every night and be like...dang.
WJ: What I wanted to say was, "Why'd they shoot that boy?", But I had to…
NS: Right! But I had to say, "Hey, it was at this time, and this is the person, and this is their name, and press conference tomorrow at 11. Stay tuned." Like, I just knew that just wasn't... that just wasn't it for me. But it's necessary. It's just not...it wasn't for Nadirah.
WJ: Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, prescient point, right? Of saying, like, "I get it and I'm not going to throw any rocks, but I don't want to do it." So you gravitated, you said it, then getting to Trevor Noah and where you worked seemed to be the perfect end.
NS: It was perfect.
WJ: But take me... What's the next step on the journey of how you arrived at those spots?
NS: Oh my gosh. At Rutgers, I did radio stations, I wrote for -- there was a class where we started our own, like digital paper, a bunch of like random internships. And a lot of the stuff that I did as well, and I tell this to kids when I go to schools is like, "Just do the thing you want to do. It doesn't have to be the big, high level internship." But like I wrote for this small Hip-Hop site that my friends started. And then when I went to show people like clips or, you know, work that I did just writing, period, they're like, "Oh, you can write well. This would be perfect for, you know, what we're doing here." Or even VH1. That was my first, like major TV internship. And I put GoodFella Media, shout out to them, I put that on my resume because that was some of the work that I had. I put Rutgers Radio on my resume. So a lot of that work, whether it was small or super large, I just, I wanted to get in where I fit in and I just... I knew how to tailor my resume. I knew how to make the words fit so that, hey, VH1 is reading it, they're like, "Oh, like she gets music. She writes about music. She also gets pop culture because she talks about it on this radio show, and she has this analysis because of the clubs she's in." Like I was able to really do that.
WJ: The idea of how those extracurriculars at college set you up, that's real.
NS: They set you up, they set you up. When I spoke at Rowan last weekend, one of the professors, one of my friends, he asked me to tell the kids, like what's some advice you would give? And I was like, "Yo, just do everything."
WJ: No doubt.
NS: You're paying this money, or your parents are paying this money. It costs a grip. Just get as much out of it as you can, because you don't want to look back and be like, "Dang, I wish I did more."
WJ: Yeah.
[PERSON-ON-THE-STREET INTERVIEW - PART 1 - When did you start reading the album credits?]
[TV static] [beep] [MUSIC: Upbeat]
Tanya: My name is Tanja Richardson. I am from Brooklyn. Born and raised.
Jonathan: Jonathan Ortiz. Born and raised Brooklyn, New York. Currently live upstate New York.
Cara: Okay. My name is Cara, and I'm BRIC's part-time security staff.
Jonathan: Operations director for Community Media here at BRIC.
Stephanie: My name is Stephanie Jones, and I'm broadcasting from downtown Brooklyn.
Jessica: I am Jessica Mason. I am from the Bronx, aka the Boogie Down, where Hip-Hop was born, and I am a media educator. Women in Hip-Hop in general I always feel were underrated. The the talent was pushed to the side if she was not willing to get naked.
Stephanie: My favorite women artist... [FADE UP MUSIC: "Shoop" by Salt-N-Pepa] definitely Salt-N-Pepa.
Jessica: Salt-N-Pepa was the first group, girl group I ever remember falling in love for, period.
Stephanie: When they first came out, I really saw, you know, myself and my friends in them. They were so empowered. They were so bold, strong. Their whole aesthetic...
Jessica: When they first came on the scene, they were baggy'd out. And when we started to see them towards the end of the scene, yeah, we saw a lot more skin. I didn't think it was fair to put women in that predicament, especially when the majority of the time that's not what their music was about.
Stephanie: You know, I worked with a lot of my girlfriends and we wanted to be like that, and we wanted to be able to tell our stories and have people really listen and have it resonate.
Jonathan: Salt-N-Pepa, Roxanne Shanté, Monie Love, I mean, I'm a Brooklyn boy, so you definitely got to say MC Lyte. [FADE OUT MUSIC]
Cara: I do like Lauryn Hill. I think she's just herself, free spirited. [FADE UP MUSIC: "U.N.I.T.Y." By Queen Latifah]
Jonathan: The Queen, Queen Latifah.
Jessica: One artist that definitely resonated with me to this day, whether she was singing, rapping or acting, was Queen Latifah.
Tanya: When Queen Latifah, the collab U.N.I.T.Y. -- If men don't stand together, it don't matter. Women always stood together.
Jessica: I saw myself a lot in her and her music had a message.
Tanya: The lyrics like, "Who you calling a bitch?" Like, no. You're gonna respect me cause, you know, we are at the incubators of the seeds.
[END MUSIC] [TV click]
[NADIRAH SIMMONS INTERVIEW - PART 2]
WJ: So you get to The Late Show…
NS: Yeah.
WJ: How do you get -- so we go intern VH1, from VH1 to The Daily Show. Let's follow chronologically.
NS: Oh, yeah. Honestly, I just, I love The Daily Show. I love Jon Stewart. I loved watching him. I was excited about this new host. I think that would have been Trevor's... It was his first full year, I think, when I was there. But the second semester of interns, if I'm not mistaken. But I just knew, like I want to intern. So I just like applied. And I was like, "Yo, I'm going to apply", do my interview, and I just got it. It was such a great experience, and I learned so much from them just about being a better writer, being a better researcher, like being a good communicator, creating an overall product. Like so much of that, and even The Gumbo, a lot of that, even though it might seem like two totally different things, a lot of my work there informed the creation of The Gumbo.
WJ: Yeah, well, that's a great segue... So the creation of The Gumbo.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Let's, let's, what is it? Give me like the short and dirty. So people understand who have not been there.
NS: Yeah. So it's a Hip-Hop social club and media platform for and by Black women. I started it in 2018. I saved up a year of my Late Show checks. I was like, "We're going to make this happen! I want to create this thing." And to the point of what I talked about with journalism, I had many things that made me feel like this is not the thing I want to pursue. But one of the main things after college, seeing a lot of friends and a lot of amazing writers, especially ones who look like me, not get opportunities, not get paid for writing opportunities, or not have their voices prioritized. And I think for me, I just knew I wanted to create a place where I could pay Black women, especially because we're a part of the creation of this culture as Black and Brown women who have created this thing. We talk about Cindy Campbell, it's preposterous for me to think that I can have friends or homegirls or even see people tweeting about like, "Yo, I have this idea and I keep pitching", or "They offered this much for this", or they said, "Hey, you can do it, but we're not going to pay you". And there was just so much of that that I was -- and we're seeing what we see now with all of these outlets just get like canned.
WJ: Mmhm.
NS: And I was like, "Yo, how can I create something that puts some money in some people's pockets, also prioritizes their voices" and also is not telling the same story. Because one of my biggest things that I also got tired of with writing is like, if Megan Thee Stallion drops, do I have to write an article? Like I saw her tweet it like I saw her Instagram it.
WJ: Ohh.
NS: Does everything have to be "Hey!" And that's what it was at the time. This was like 2016 where there was a lot of... You have the critique, you had the Pitchforks, you had the Rolling Stones, you had that. But a lot of it was just quick bite, like, "Look what so-and-so posted on Instagram!" like, "Yo, I don't want to see that!" I want to get this deeper analysis. I want someone to write about Megan Thee Stallion, how her body helped influence her body image. And we have a post like that on the site.
[MUSIC BREAK: "Body” by Megan Thee Stallion]
…Body-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody… [FADE OUT MUSIC]
NS: I want to read about a Mia X and her impact.
[MUSIC BREAK: "Make ’em Say Ugh” by Master P feat. Mia X]
We capitalize and monopolize on everything we see. Keep pistols drawed //
and cocked. We got the industry locked, we can't be stopped, too hot. //
Check the spots that we got… [FADE OUT MUSIC]
NS: I want to hear about that. I want to read about, I think her name is Stormé, a woman who dressed in outfits that were considered masculine.
[CLIP from “Stormé: The Lady of the Jewel Box”]
Stormé: Men's jackets were loose, but the pants were skintight. And if I ever took my jacket off on stage, the dirt was out. But, you know, the strange thing is, I never moved any different than I had when I was wearing women's clothes. The only thing changed, they only saw what they wanted to see and they believe what they wanted to believe. Some say sir and some say ma'am. And that's the way it is. I never change expression. It makes no difference to me…
NS: Her outfitting and her style connects directly to a lot of the tomboy outfits that we see. Like, I was like, "I want to read about that!" There are stories like that within Hip-Hop. I want to uncover those stories, and I want us to be the ones uncovering them. I don't want to pay girls to feel like they have to give me a breakdown on what so-and-so was wearing in their Instagram post. Like, I want them to be able to say, "Hey, I have a thought about how this woman makes me feel, what this woman means to us here in the South about this woman y'all don't talk about, but she is a legend." I want you all to write about that. And that really, it just all came together in that way. And people always ask me how I came up with the name The Gumbo, because I'm not from the south. [laughter] I literally was raised in Jersey, but it came me one night, literally while I was sleeping. I was like, "What is something that just describes a bunch of different things that come together to make something good?" And I was like, "That's what Hip-Hop is to me. It's the music, it's the dancing, it's the writing, it's all of these different elements." and I was like, "Oh, that's my gumbo!" And that's how it, like, yeah.
WJ: Ohh, I like that. How has this been received by your readers, the industry, as best as you can tell, your writers?
NS: Yeah. The readers, they love it. And the one thing I will say, I remember in the beginning there were a few naysayers, of course, they're like, "How are you going to make this thing? You got to include all women, or you got to include all people, you got to..." And I was like, "Yo, like, it's it's going to be a niche thing, but trust me, like, there are people that want this. They want to just hear about this. I trust me." I mean, there have been articles on like Missy Elliott and she has retweeted them and shared them. Mia X has seen the article on her, shout out to Brooklyn who has edited for The Gumbo. Amazing editor. And Mia X has reshared that. So there are instances like that where the women will see it. And for me, like that's the most -- there are two rewarding things. One is paying the women before their article goes live. I'm very big on that. I don't believe in paying people after…
WJ: Oh, is that the practice?
NS: As soon as I'm done editing it and it's approved, I pay them and then we post it.
WJ: That seems odd to do it any other way. Sometimes you post it and then you gotta chase your money?
NS: Sometimes you post it and then you gotta chase -- yeah! I had so many friends who were like, "Yeah, like I did this piece. It went up and it's supposed to be a net 30, and now it's a net 120. Like I'm still waiting for my money!" And I'm like, "As long as I approve it and I'm like, 'This is good', why would you not get paid? You did the work. So it should go live." So that's one thing that makes me very proud, is to be able to not only pay people, but to pay them in a timely manner. And the women themselves seeing it, especially when they feel like, "Oh dang, I didn't think anyone was going to write about this!" Like I remember Mia X posted a screenshot of that article and was just so, like, excited. Missy is very engaged on Twitter, but even for her to like, see an article was like, "Wow, like this is dope."
WJ: What was the Mia X article?
NS: The Mia X article was by Brooklyn White-Grier. And it was about her, I think just her impact as a woman from the South and what she had done. And prior to that, there weren't that many pieces on Mia and still aren't. So that's the thing. There was one on, I can't remember if Gangsta Boo saw it or not. I don't want to speak incorrectly, but I do think she did. Someone wrote something on her. Rest in Peace to Gangsta Boo.
WJ: Mia X, Gangsta Boo. You know, these are people who just get easily... [00:17:41][3.6]
NS: Mmhmm.
WJ: And we talked about it in a previous episode, I think it was our first one with Kathy Iandoli.
NS: Shout out to Kathy, yeah.
WJ: Yeah. She was saying like it was always like, "Oh, I'm the woman counterpart to No Limit. Yeah, counterpart to them…
NS: Or I'm the first lady, or I'm the...yup, yeah.
WJ: Yes. This first lady thing is very low key demeaning.
NS: Which I try, yeah, we'll talk about that when we get to the book. Yeah.
WJ: But tell me one last thing before we leave The Gumbo, and then we're going to get to the book, the in-person events. Because I also found this, this mixed experience very logical.
NS: We do this event that's kind of been our staple called Sample Sunday. To the point of what I talked about with like Philadelphia Soul and growing up in South Jersey, I love samples. Like I... my favorite Hip-Hop songs have samples. I think that it is amazing. I think it's a form of Afrofuturism to take something older and turn it into this whole new thing. And just like sonically reinvent it. And I was like, "Yo!" We would post them on the Instagram like kind of like, "Oh, a side by side." But I also felt like I could do this all day on the internet. I want people to actually come in person and like experience this. So we did it at Ode to Babble. Shout out to them. Quin Bee our DJ, amazingly creative director. Love her. She would just come and just play samples and then play the songs that sample them.
WJ: I love that.
NS: And that would just be, that would just be it. And people would leave after and like, tag us like, "Yo, I never heard of Teddy Pendergrass", or like, "I never listen to the Spinners", or "I never listen to..." Like, just so many different people were like, I grew up like, these are my people. Like, my grandpa would switch from HOV in the car to Teddy or whoever.
WJ: Right, right [laughter]
NS: That was really... And he knew the words to both songs.
[MUSIC BREAK: "I Miss You” by Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes]
…(Ooh) Oh, I
(Ooh... ooh... ooh... ooh... ooh... ooh...) Oh, I
I miss you, baby
Oh, I (Oh, I) … [FADE OUT SONG]
[FADE UP MUSIC: “This Can’t Be Life” by Jay-Z]
…It wouldn'ta been life, it wouldn'ta been us (OohOohOoh)
This can't be life (Ooh, I)
This can't be life, this can't be love (Ooh, I)
This can't be right, there's gotta be more, this can't be us (OohOohOoh) [FADE OUT SONG]
NS: That's like just a part of me. But I wanted people to really experience. I think sometimes, especially on the internet, music can be experienced like it's so fast. Like you're just like, "Oh, new album came out. What's my thought? What comparisons can I make? And then what's the next thing?" Like everything moves so fast and I'm like, there's so much... I don't even think I can comprehend how much music quite literally exists in the world.
WJ: Right?
NS: There's so much to learn from and to listen to, and I just wanted people to come to that place and enjoy that. And I also wanted people to have a party... because I like to party, like, I like to have fun, I like to dance. [FADE UP MUSIC from Sample Sunday party] Like, yo, if you come to Sample Sunday, we always say in the beginning we give you the hour, we give you a nice ease in. Once it hits 7:00, everybody get up! [laughter] Like I will get on the mic and be like, "Yo, get up!" I will walk around, "We are not doing that!" And I wanted to create that too. When I think about Cindy and what she said about her party, when I think about the Hip-Hop parties that I researched and just like watch clips of, like, I want people to be in there. We would get on the mic, like, I want you to feel like you are in a function and just having a time. I don't want you to feel like you are observing a party. I want you to be a part of it. [FADE OUT MUSIC]
WJ: You're reminding me, it's funny, I'm like a Hip-Hop guy. My wife seems to be very much like you. Where I would listen to the sample in the Hip-Hop record and then, like the Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes come on and I'm...
NS: Love them!
WJ: ...And she'd be like, "Boy, no! This was first." It's embarrassing how much of that old Philly Soul I only know through the samples.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Here is now the archivist in you, right? This preservationist that…
NS: Yeah.
WJ: …now we, The Gumbo is a part of, but now we get back to the book.
NS: To the book!
WJ: So talk to me about your approach, talk to me about the book. How did the book come about? Did you pitch it? Did you get solicited? Like, how does one create?
NS: Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Monet Alyssa, who did the front and back cover of the book.
WJ: It's beautiful.
NS: And also, yes, my homegirl Sarah Gallantry, who I actually work with at The Late Show and I would always ask her to draw graphics for us for social.
WJ: So how does the book deal come about?
NS: The book deal was very unconventional. People have asked me this a lot. I did not pitch a single thing. I wrote a small blurb in Shea Serrano's "Hip-Hop & Other Things". Shout out to Shea. We'd love Shea. And after that it was... I think we were still in like remote and kind of virtual time. So Shea's book events were virtual. And he was like, "Hey, do you want to like host one for me?" And I was like, "Okay!" I was like, "You're asking me to host one of your book events? Sure!" He's like, "We're just going to get on there and talk about Hip-Hop like we do. Like that's just what we're going to do." And we did that. It was great. And after that, his editor reached out to me and was like, "Thank you so much for doing that. Also, have you ever thought about writing a book? I've heard about The Gumbo. I, you know, I think you'd be great." So we got on a call. I actually told him, I was like, "I have this thesis from my senior year in college at Rutgers." It was on Black women and sexuality and constructing it through Hip-Hop. And I had so much research that I had done in there. I was like, "I can come up --" and The Gumbo! I was like, "I have so much. Like, I can come up with a few ideas." So I sent over a bunch and this idea of firsts and also these real and metaphorical firsts, which is a lot of what's in the book. I was like "This, this is the one." He was like, "This is my favorite too. Like, I love that, that is great." So I took a year off, like I didn't work. I was like, "I'm just going to lock in." I wanted to create a story, one that was historical. Because I'm a nerd, I like giving people all the history and all the facts. But also the way I talk about Hip-Hop, like I get really excited, like it's fun. Like, I, hopefully it sounds like I'm talking to you.
WJ: Mmhmm. It does.
NS: Because a lot of people are like, "Yo, like, I have never met you. But this, I feel like I'm sitting across from you and talking to you." And that's really, that's just really what I wanted to convey. So there are chapters that have these real, tangible firsts: Queen Latifah being the first rapper to get a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. But then there are metaphorical chapters, like Missy Elliott being the first woman in rap to go to space. Now we know she didn't go to space, but what that actually means for her and her music and the legacy that she has. There's a chapter on April Walker, the first woman to dominate in Hip-Hop fashion. Then you have the chapter on Lil' Kim, who's one of my faves. I call her the first blueprint for modern woman in rap. Like there's so much in there, but it really takes us through kind of these firsts, but also talking about firsts in a way that's not like this is a matter of, and I say this in the book, it's not about rank and it's not a matter of importance. And that's even why... The next book I'm like, I would like to do "Second Things Second". And people have already said they're like, "Would you like to do 'Second Things Second'?" I'm like, "Not y'all having the title already. You already know, like, don't say anything!" But I really would love to... I would love for people to just read the book and understand where things come from. So when you're thinking about it first, it's not, "Oh, this was the best. And this is where -- the buck stops here. That's it. They did. It's done." Just to have a frame of reference for "Oh, this is why this is the way this is..."
WJ: Yes. yes.
NS: "...and this is how the second and the third and the fourth and the fifth. Oh, this is why this is the way it is. And this is why the 10th is so important. And this is why..." Like, I wanted people to make those connections and just be able to draw lines to to history in Hip-Hop.
WJ: Yeah, it's interesting because I think the danger is, when I first started reading -- actually when it was first explained, is it, like, "Oh, first and then... Yay us!"
NS: No. Yeah.
WJ: Is the danger that people are going to read it, say "That's it"? But it's totally... Well, actually you're kind of smart, you almost write it like a movie. It demands a sequel.
NS: Yeah, yeah.
WJ: Right? Because it's like, you know, what was the one I was looking at? Oh, the Nicki Minaj chapter --
NS: Yeah!
WJ: -- The first woman rapper to completely demolish two goaded men on a track.
NS: I know when I wrote that, I was like, "This is a funny chapter title, yo!" But yeah!
WJ: I see it with The Gumbo, it's a very, somewhat random, yet very powerful thing that needs to be said and documented.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Because I remember when they started playing that, was it Monster?
NS: Monster!
WJ: I remember it on the radio, they would... she went last. And for months you would only... You thought that it was a Nicki song.
NS: That was before her debut album.
WJ: Crazy, right. And that's, and that's something to be said that I guess to nerd out with you and you see the dominance of women now, right? Up and down the charts with Sexyy Read and also this other stuff, it started with that verse.
NS: With that!
WJ: not started, but, you know! [FADE UP MUSIC "Monster” by Kanye West]
NS: But yeah!
[MUSIC BREAK: "Monster” by Kanye West feat. Nicki Minaj]
Nicki Minaj: …Okay, first things first, I'll eat your brains Then I'ma start rocking gold teeth and fangs, 'Cause that's what a motherfuckin' monster do Hairdresser from Milan, that's the monster 'do, Monster Giuseppe heel, that's the monster shoe Young Money is the roster and a monster crew… [FADE OUT SONG]
NS: I chose to focus on Nicki in that verse. Nicki has so many firsts! Nicki is a legend. But it's something about "Monster" with Jay-Z and Kanye West and Rick Ross and Bon Iver, of course.
WJ: Right, Rick Ross too got bodied.
NS: It’s something about being on there with these two titans -- two people who are considered the greatest of all time, period -- and for people, like you said, I remember listening to that song and sometimes like on the radio, just hearing Nicki, like quite literally just hearing Nicki. I remember riding around my dad, uncle, like with people being like, "Yo, this is hard!" Like, like, what that did it it just it just changed so -- and it's so important. In a lot of those -- all the firsts in the book are so important when it comes to their legacy. Like I talk about a Angie Martinez, the first Latina Hip-Hop voice in the Radio Hall of Fame. She has a lot of firsts. She's done a lot. But, one of her interviews that she did, she said, "Yo I walked around..." I forget what school she was speaking at, but she said, "I looked at all the people who were inducted on the wall." She was like, "It wasn't a big deal to me up until that point."
[CLIP: Angie Martinez on Drink Champs]
Angie Martinez: I never really gave a shit about awards. I never understood why people put so much into it, because it usually comes from a group of people that don't know your value, don't really respect your value. But I went to a school, a broadcasting school, Black and Brown kids in there. I look up at the wall, it's all the Hall of Famers, and they ain't nobody up there that look like me.
Host: Wow.
Angie Martinez: And that was the day I was like, "Oh I... I get it." [END CLIP]
NS: This is why this matters. This is why this induction matters. And in that chapter, I talk about the Hall of Fame induction. But I pick out my favorite interviews of hers. I talk about her talking to Foxy Brown after she, you know, went deaf and got the surgery and regained her hearing.
WJ: Mmhmm.
NS: I talk about the importance of Angie being the person for that moment. I talk about the Mary J. Blige Burger King controversy and all of that and how... [Wes laughs] Yeah, like people were so, people were so up in arms about it. But the safe space that Angie gave, that I feel like Mary always deserves for how much she's given us in her music! Angie was the perfect person to have her come up there and open up like that and feel comfortable enough to say, "Yo, like, this really hurt my feelings and the way people talked about me really hurt." Like, there's so many, there's so many things like that. And that's what I wanted the book to be.
WJ: It's interesting, like when you talk about Nikki, like the firsts…
NS: Yeah.
WJ: It's almost... There's almost contradictory firsts in the book because Nikki bodying them, you could say that Lauryn did that in The Fugees. So this is not quite new.
NS: You could!
WJ: Like this idea of woman coming in and blowing the frame off is not new, but it is though…
NS: Not new, no. But yes!
WJ: But you're right.
NS: And that's what I said in that chapter. I'm like, "Yo, this is my personal thought!" I was like, "If you think there are two other GOATS that were demolished by a woman, [laughter] I support you! Like, but I'm letting you know, to me, I have never seen two men at this level!
WJ: That's true.
NS: Be... But I say that in there, and that was the one thing I wanted people to understand. I had a lot of anxiety about, and again, shout out to my editor, he was like, "You got to write the book you want to write. You can't focus on writing the book so everybody is like, 'I love this, and this is great.' Like, you got to write the book and let it just be what it is." Because for a minute, like those first two months, I was trying to fit in, one, every achievement that every woman had ever made. Even with the firsts, I was like, "I got to tell their entire story." And I'm like, "Those books exist!" Once I got past that, of course, I was like, some people are gonna be like, "Well, why didn't she mention this person's first award?" And "Why does she think this person is..." Like, it's a fun book, have fun!
WJ: I think you did a great job with that. So you almost spark those conversations where it's like, "Yes, but, bah bah bah" And you're bouncing around.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: Because, now I'm thinking again, chapter 31 was Salt-N-Pepa...
NS: Yeah!
WJ: ...The idea of the woman in the crew being ascendant. You go back to Herby Luv Bug, she, there was a, you know that was Kid 'n Play and all these other people. But so this idea of women sort of over-indexing in the crew led to Nicki!
NS: Yeah! There's so much of it!
WJ: If you start to dance around your book, you see the seeds.
NS: Yup, you'll see it. Exactly!
WJ: You know what mean? What I loved was the different categories.
NS: Thank you!
WJ: And it's almost like intellectual intersectionality in a sense?
NS: Yeah. Thank you.
WJ: Right? Because you got, you know, Misa...
NS: GOAT. Yeah.
WJ: ...Who people don't talk about enough. April, thankfully, people are talking about more.
NS: Yes, yes. I love Miss April.
WJ: But there was a time when it wasn't enough. But then you jumping over to Honey, and Kim Osario We could talk about Kim as the proto Me Too.
NS: Yes, absolutely.
WJ: So talk to me. Was that, were you trying to construct this web as well?
NS: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like. I mean, everyone knows I love Hip-Hop, I love music, I have no desire to work in Hip-Hop or music whatsoever, [laughter] but I love, I also love TV, and that's something I've worked in. Like I said, my dad's Hip-Hop clothing store, I like fashion. I had gone with him to showrooms when he would drive up to New York, and I would be in the garage where he got all the packages and go through everything. So I just always understood Hip-Hop as this thing that was -- and I try not to use the word culture that much, but it it quite literally is. It embodies and is reflected in so much from our TV shows to our films, to our outfits, to the way people write about things that aren't even Hip-Hop. Like the critiquing that you can see, like when I go back and I read an older Honey and an older Source, I'm like, "Yo!" Like a lot of the ways in which we write about and talk about things today are influenced by that. A lot of the ways in which people analyze albums, maybe you're not doing a Five Mics, but you are absolutely influenced by, a system like that.
WJ: Oh cause, So the Five Mic is kind of this thing of like the way we analyze it.
NS: I just think, yeah, I feel like when I, when I was going back -- and shout out to Syreeta, Syreeta Gates, cause she has so many magazines that she was like, "I got this one for ya!" I'm like, "How do you have every magazine ever for me to look at?" But you could just see the influence of... One, these different writers, like a Danyel Smith or, you know, like a Kierna, you can see their influence in a lot of the words of women today. But you can also see a lot of the concepts, like I said, like a Five Mics and a ranking. And, obviously people always did album reviews, but you can just see a lot of that in there. And there's so much -- even advertising. When I look at the ads, especially in Honey Magazine, a lot of those ads where Black women like –
WJ: The business model of like a Fenty.
NS: Yeah!
WJ: Could you say, maybe I'm... This idea of like, "Oh, we have all these different shades and representation!" If you keep dividing, you could go back to Honey.
NS: I think the biggest thing is there's a lot of work that has been put in that we just have to acknowledge.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Because whether it was a direct line or there's no line, the work of those women and the women in that book, it's why we have a lot of the stuff we have today.
WJ: Well, do you consider yourself an archivist and what does that discipline mean to you?
NS: Yeah, I feel like maybe I should. I feel like if I say no, someone's gonna be like, "Yes, you are!" Like, "What are you doing?!" Um...
WJ: Well you say whatever you want here, you know.
NS: Yeah, I would say as a Black American, there's so much about myself, I don't know because we can't find it.
WJ: Amen.
NS: I can't find a great, great, great, great great grandfather in the way that maybe some other people came because nobody thought it was -- no one thought it was valid enough to document them! Nobody cared enough to document them. Nobody saved the photo because they thought they needed to save a photo. Nobody saved a record. And this is why I always, you know, bring up my family. Like, my grandfather, when he passed, he left me like a box of... Like, I have people's old credit cards and like, old family, like, all the archiving, all of that. I have so much family history, but there's still so much about myself that I don't know. Even in my town, ten minutes from my house, there's an underground railroad stop.
WJ: What?!
NS: I didn't learn about that until five years ago. And I think that's why archiving is so important. One, so you can know your history, but also so you can have physical, tangible things. Whether that means, "Hey, I can go on The Gumbo's website and type in a woman's name, and now I can learn about them!" Or I can just scroll for days and just learn about new women and see pictures I've never seen or hear stories I've never heard. Or, you know, we did a podcast with different DJs that exists on SoundCloud. You can hear about these different, you know, women DJs and their stories. I wanted that to be kind of like this little digital ecosystem where you can just go -- even with nothing specific in mind, no intention, you just want to vibe and type in The Gumbo dot net -- and you can learn. And to that point of not knowing our history and just there's so much about myself, I don't know. There's so much more I would know if... One, someone thought it was important to document it, or if someone just saved it, period. And I'm just, I'm just so big on just saving things. And if you don't want to have the physical, just scan it!
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Just, just save it. So that way when we do Hip-Hop 75 or Hip-Hop 51, I'm very proud doing Hip-Hop. 51, 52, 53 do it! But when we do Hip-Hop 100, there's no question about a Cindy Campbell, there's no question about a April Walker, there's no question about a Lauryn Hill. Like, that's important to me. Because that's how you get -- when you don't do that, that's how you get to a place where people can now assign the creativity and the responsibility to people who aren't us and who aren't us.
WJ: Just... I don't know if there's a question here, but a thought that I want to hear what you think. It almost felt very hurtful…
NS: Absolutely.
WJ: ...to us, right? It's a form of the brutality that Black people, Brown people, People of Color, women, Queer people have this felt in this country. Would you... Is... I know I get almost like emotional not taking care of those magazines just when you were talking I felt.
NS: Yeah. I think not taking care of those magazines and those histories in general, it just makes -- like, legitimately what you said -- it just makes me sad.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Like, I, I get really sad. I get sad at the thought of someone not knowing a person. I get sad at, like, you know, a Legacy Magazine there only being maybe 4 or 5 -- not saying this is the case, but if they're only 4 or 5 copies in rotation because everyone's like, "Oh, like trash! Now it's in a landfill." Like, that makes me so sad.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Like that preservation is just so important. And you think about museums and people taking stuff from people that just it don't even belong to them. And it's like, "Dang, we got to really hold on to our stuff so we can have it." One, people are buying these magazines for grip on eBay. Because when I was trying to research for the book, at first I was like, "Oh, I'll go get it!" And I was like, "Oh no!" Again, shout out to Syreeta. I'm like, "Thank God you got so much because..."
WJ: Yeah.
NS: ...What does that say if the average person who -- I probably could have paid for the magazine, I'm glad I didn't have to -- but what does that say about the kid who wants to start a clothing line and wants to read old magazines to look at old Rocawear or whatever ads? And the magazine is $7,500?
WJ: Yeah.
NS: That makes it seem like it's inaccessible for him, and it might make him feel like, "Uh, let me try something else! Forget it."
WJ: "Forget it!" Right. "I might as well go work at..." right.
NS: "Imma go do something else." And the magazine is just one example of that. And I just don't want... Stuff just shouldn't be out of reach. It shouldn't be inaccessible.
WJ: That's true. The appreciating asset knocked out because of financial sort of aspects.
NS: Yup.
WJ: So you sort of answered this, but for somebody who may be listening or watching and saying like, "You know what, you're right. I want to preserve better."
NS: Okay, yes! Shout out to you.
WJ: Right! Is it just simply that like, box it up? What should we, could we be thinking about?
NS: Yeah. Well, you definitely -- and this is something Syreeta and I have talked about. She runs The Gates Preserve, so check it out on Instagram. She's amazing. Making sure your stuff is climate controlled. And that's something I don't know a lot about. So that's why... A separate thing. You know, just making sure like researching what different archivists say about making sure your stuff is protected. But also scan it! Like, even if you just take a picture of it on your phone or you go down to Staples and scan it, just scan it and put it in a Google Drive. I forget how much Google lets you have for free up until you're like, "Oh, I'm trying, I gotta pay for it." I have run that jawn over a few times, scannin' stuff. [laughter] Yeah, I can't believe I did that. But, um, yeah, just like, just take a picture of it.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Like on my phone, I have tens of thousands of photos just because I saw something, I'm like, "This is cool!"
WJ: You know, my OG, Ralph McDaniels...
NS: Yeah.
WJ: ...Having a basement full of tapes from Video Music Box. And thank God he captured the scenes, but I worried -- I used to talk to him, like, "I'm so worried about a flood, and how much of our culture we may lose!"
NS: Yeah.
WJ: So there's almost like, "Man, we got to get you some climate control, digitize this..."
NS: Yeah. And I think this, separate from him, is like, sometimes people have this stuff, but that costs money and time. Like, who's going to take these 500, 600, however many tapes you have, who has the time to scan it? I can't remember the woman's name. I know she's from Philly. It's called "The Recorder" there's a documentary on her. But she recorded every news story ever for years. You cna watch it on Amazon. I was intrigued, I was like, "This is crazy!" But she recorded, it was like decades of news footage! She had footage that even the networks themselves didn't have it anymore.
WJ: Oh wow!
NS: You should definitely watch it. But that wasn't even the thing when I first watched it, I was like, "Ooh, I just gotta save!" Like, "Whatever I see, I got to save!" Because now, I don't remember what News Station it was, but like, CNN is coming to you like, "Hey, do you have this from local news in Philly on October 27th, 1979?" She was like, "Yeah, I got it!" like, and it kind of overtook her, it became like her thing. But now it's a preservation project and all her tapes have been archived and scanned and digitized.
WJ: That's great!
NS: And I'm just like, thankful that she did that!
WJ: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, like, Ralph, this has been, not to get into his pocket as they say, but this is a very good business model because when somebody wants... "I need LL Cool J from '88!" Being like, "I'm literally the only one with that footage because I was the only one who went to the tunnel or whatever."
NS: Only one who went, yup!
WJ: But I say this to say, I hope that someone listening can... And we said this before, like, "I think I want to be the Hip-Hop archivist."
NS: Yeah!
WJ: Because I'm a nerd, I like to catalog things, and I like HOV.
NS: Yeah [laughter] that's me!
WJ: Yeah. Exactly! So, you figured it out in a wonderful way. But what gems could you drop for, say, like the the 2.0 version of you that's coming up? To become, you know, to do what you do, but even a little bit better.
NS: I would say, oof, I'm trying to think of the things that don't involve money, but I would say if there's anything... whether you're using, like, web archive dot org, or I'm a big JSTOR girl. I still feel like I'm in undergrad at Rutgers, the amount of time I spend on JSTOR. But investing in a platform that has historical like records and papers and read someone's thesis and different archives like that. Because that's how sometimes I read things and I'm like, "Oh, let me go look up such and such on the New York Times, on such and such day." Or I'll see a citation for something, and then I'll go look up the thing that was cited, and then I'll find the video and then I find... So I would say do that. I would get a Google Drive. Just make a Google account, make a Gmail. Separate from -- this is the biggest thing -- make it separate from your personal. Because I made the big mistake, I'm like, "Oh, personal for everything!" And now I got book stuff in the personal, archive stuff in the personal. Make sure you're organized and just make a copy of everything. So if you have a physical one, take a picture. If you have the picture, go print it out, even if it's in black and white at staples for five cent a sheet, like have a copy of everything! Because what you also don't want is to lose the one thing and then that's it.
WJ: Yeah, I really hope that we can inspire someone listening to be -- we need the Hip-Hop archivist.
NS: I hope so, yeah!
WJ: Because I just I'm just looking at my notes here again. And I wrote randomly "Elvis". Right?
NS: Mm.
WJ: And people like you, I just want to shout you out, Nadirah.
NS: Thank you.
WJ: Because, Hip-Hop – as Black folks, were getting better, right? They stole blues from us, stole rock & roll...
NS: Child.
WJ: Almost stole Soul. It's going to be pretty hard to steal Hip-Hop because of what you're doing...
NS: Oh, thank you.
WJ: Books like this, it can't be like, "Actually, it was Iggy Azalea." or something, not shout out to her, and be like, "Actually, see, I read "First Things First"!
NS: Hey!
WJ: You know what I mean? And it's documented, cited, referenced.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: It really... You really talk about Pebblee Poo or something like that.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: So I just think it's, it's… I just don't want to leave our time together without, like, understanding, like this discipline that you bring into the culture, how valuable it's going to be probably in 50 years.
NS: Thank you so much.
WJ: You know what I mean?
[PERSON-ON-THE-STREET INTERVIEW - PART 2 - Does Hip-Hop have an age limit?]
[TV static] [beep] [MUSIC: Upbeat] Stephanie: In my Hip-Hop museum, I would include all of the early old-heads for people like me.
Jonathan: Fashion, sneakers, Adidas specifically, jumpsuits, Kangos…
Jessica: Well let's probably start with a cardboard box, okay? Because like the bottom a cardboard, because that's what they used to thrown down on the ground when they started to break dance.
Jonathan: Markers, you know, fat markers that they used to do, pilots…
Jessica: We have to have some turntables. We have to have records. We have to have
crates full of records. Because this is how DJs used to travel with speakers that were
damn near our height.
Jonathan: Turntables, beat machines, DAT recordings, DAT tapes…
Jessica: Cassette tapes! You know, this generation will never know the struggle of having to listen to the radio all day long and sitting at that radio waiting for the DJ to play your song so that you could record. You want to talk about the power of a mixtape? They don't know!
Tanya: A exhibit full of different beat boxes. If you walked with a boombox and got a tape, you was that person. Like all the girls used to be, like, "'Cause he got the radio!" So when L.L. cool J came out with the song "I Can't Live Without My Radio", it all resonated with so many people because it was like, [singing] "You walkin' down the street with your box in your haaand". How we listen to music from then to now, and the last thing would be just a Bluetooth speaker.
Cara: Pictures from historic days.
Jessica: Photography. Like different images of, you know, Sedgewick Avenue with folks, the underground parties, and then, you know, when it became mainstream. And then the artists who became mainstream who took it there, who... You know, the LL Cool Js.
Stephanie: Really the pioneers, especially the female pioneers, of that era. I don't want to overlook them. I want to see them represented and recognized in my museum.
[END MUSIC] [TV click]
[NADIRAH SIMMONS INTERVIEW - PART 3]
WJ: All right, so this is our fun at the end.
NS: Alright!
WJ: It's called "this or that".
NS: I love a "this or that"!
WJ: You gotta pick one thing, my first one, I think you kind of answered, is, you got to pick one and explain why – South Jersey or Philly?
NS: Oh! Well, I'm going to pick South Jersey because I feel like if I pick Philly, people would be like "Traitor! Like, what are you doing?".
WJ: That's what I thought. [laughter]
NS: The thing that I love about South Jersey, even though, like, I've been in the city and I like, like the city life. South Jersey is just home. And there's so much even to that point of like, history and so many like, free Black towns, and like the history of that there. And learning a lot about, you know, where we come from and a lot of the events and even the community in South Jersey, it's very different than North Jersey, too, like it's it's such a different vibe. I have memories of, like going to the farm as a kid. Like I definitely went to the farm with, like my grandma, went to the farm with my dad
WJ: That area is like low key, really beautiful.
NS: Yeah.
WJ: You could get far enough away from the madness, but be close enough to it.
NS: That's what I like. I like that -- and I think that's the thing. Like South, you can go into the city, you go to Roots Picnic, you go to -- I used to go to Ice Cream Festival a lot as a kid. Y'all need to bring it back and get it right! I'm saying this now. [laughter] I don't know what's going on. But like, my parents used to take my sisters and I to all of that stuff, and it was so beautiful to, like, go there, kind of go over the bridge, see it all, go to a Phillies game, and then just come home and like, hang out in the backyard. Like, yeah.
WJ: Yeah yeah. And people don't talk -- you said, you said "jawn".
NS: Jawn. Yeah, I know! That's all of our -- it literally is like this. [links hands]
WJ: So that Philly, that philly South Jersey thing is kind of like... y'all are like cousins. Okay. Next one. I got, we got two more: writing for print or writing for TV?
NS: Oh gosh. Hmhm. Print because, as long as we have many ways to access it, that's always going to be the most important.
WJ: Oh, I see.
NS: That, that, yeah. That was my thing. I was like, "Oh, because you'll have, you'll have access!" People ban books. People are like, "No, you can't have this." Like it happens sometimes, but --
WJ: Oh, so you're just saying that print is more... Durable? It's harder to erase.
NS: I think, I think it's harder to erase it.
WJ: That's a heavy thought.
NS: But I will say, yeah, with TV you have streaming... I'm just think about so many shows that get canceled and then they're like off the platform. You're like, "Well, where can I watch this?".
WJ: Yeah, yeah.
NS: So that was the -- once that hit me, I was like, "Nah." But that's really my main thing. I love both, but I just want to make sure if you write it, you can always read it. So if the book... You can't get the book, you can get the e-book. And if you can't get the e-book, then you can listen to the audiobook.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Like I'm just very big on access and being able to have it.
WJ: Yeah.
NS: Because sometimes -- even TV! We feel like, "Oh, TVs always going to be there. You can always watch it." But these past few years, they be... they get rid of stuff.
WJ: Okay. Album art or album title. When you digging' through the crates with your pops digging' through the crates…
NS: Album art.
WJ: Really?
NS: Album art. Yeah.
WJ: So really, so you're a visual person. Even though you're a writer and archivist.
NS: Yeah! Because here's the thing. If you would have said album credits or liner notes or album artwork, then I would have picked that!
WJ: Okay, then let's – I change my question! I want to hear the answer to that. Give me more on that.
NS: It's liner notes! Liner notes. I like going through and reading and learning about the different people. Like I will go -- this is the one thing my parents did save, thankfully, like every CD they've ever bought. Just boxes and boxes of boxes and boxes in our basement of CDs. So whenever I'm like home, I will literally go sit in the basement for hours. I'll just open up the box, go through everything, look at the name, type the name in on Google, like maybe end up on LinkedIn. [laughter] Like I just like knowing who the people were. I like seeing the overlap. Like I love that. So the liner notes, I'm so... that's definitely my, like, nerd out thing. And even on my Instagram, like if you scroll down, there's like pictures of me just sitting down like cross-legged on my parents, like living room floor with just mad CDs [laughter] and like, my parents will come down and be like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm gonna look!"
WJ: Well, listen, Nadirah, you don't know, that's the whole point of this podcast…
NS: Yes!
WJ: Was... It's like, it's De La, MF Doom, and Pos says, "What you need to do is get back to reading credits", right? And I, to tell the story, I'm just like you. I used to go on dates with my wife, back then my girlfriend, to Tower Records.
NS: Ohhh.
WJ: On 4th and Broadway, this was my... I'm such a nerd, this was my date.
NS: Love that. Yup!
WJ: And I would pick it up and turn it around. And I knew government names, publishing companies, studios…
NS: Literally, yes!
WJ: You -- see?! We’re the same person!
NS: Yeah, absolutely. Like, even if I'm in the car, and I said this in my book, 'cause I'm like, "Whenever I say something, my mom and dad would be like, 'We told you that!'" But, like, listening to Lady B on the radio, like, that was who I listen to on radio growin' up.
WJ: Lady B! C'mon!
NS: And then I remember, like, years ago, I was like, "Oh my gosh, she's one of the first woman to record a rap song!" My dad was like, "I told you that!" [laughter] But like, just thinking about, yo, like being with them, and them being like, "This is the credit, and this is the person." Like, that's just... That's just always been my bag. They prepped me for this.
WJ: Yeah, I need to, you need to bring your parents next time!
NS: I will!
WJ: I want to hang out!
NS: Yeah. They're cool. They're fun. They are fun
WJ: Yeah. Yeah. We may have run into each other back in the days of the 609.
NS: You might have! Yes, you may -- Yo, wait, literally though. I'm gonna text my dad right after this. Be like, "Do you know Wes Jackson?"
WJ: [laughter] Exactly, exactly. Well, listen, this is great. Wonderful conversation. I, you know, we wish you all the luck.
NS: Thank you so much.
WJ: Thanks for taking the time, you know, to speak with us. And I will give you just the last word to take us out. [FADE UP MUSIC BED: Slow, heavy beat]
NS: Yeah! Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. I feel like I could talk for days about so many different things. But thank all of y'all for listening or watching however you're consuming this podcast. And please, if you haven't yet, get "First Thing's First: Hip-Hop Ladies Who Changed The Game" wherever you get your books. Also, I gotta let you know, please support an independent bookstore, a Black-owned bookstore. Let's make sure we are buying books and keeping books in rotation, so this part of this medium and this artform that we have does not get lost.
[CREDITS]
[VO] WJ: This episode of Back To Reading Credits was produced by Khyriel Palmer, Emily Boghossian, Raynita Vaughn, Chris Torres, Gabrielle Davenport, and Antoine Hardy. with help from Elyse Rodriguez Aleman, Jose Astorga, Jonathan Ortiz, and Zak Sherzad. Our audio engineer was Onel Mulet, and our videographer was Leslie Hayes.
[VO] WJ: Back To Reading Credits is hosted by me, Wes Jackson. The show is taped at BRIC House in Downtown Brooklyn. Check the show notes for links to Nadirah Simmons’ work.
[VO] WJ: If you like what you hear or think we missed something, comment, like, share and subscribe, and follow [at] BRIC TV on twitter and instagram, for updates.
[VO] WJ: For more information on this and all BRIC Radio podcasts, visit www [dot] bricartsmedia [dot] org [slash] podcasts.
[FADE OUT MUSIC]