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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Pinaki Kathiari (00:00)
⁓ we do rock, paper, scissors, see who does the intro. Right on.
Chris Lee (00:00)
Yeah. I I I can do it. I'm f I can buy them. Well let's do it. Okay,
ready? Three, two, one.
All right, hey everybody. It's ⁓ why does it feel so wrong to be human at work between the seasons? And as usual, I'm joined by my co-host here, Pinaki Kathiari and our amazing producer, Bree Bartos
And we're doing something a little bit different, a little bit you know, we have we just had a chance, ⁓ Pinaki and Bree to catch up in Toronto last week during the IABC World Conference and of course FIFA World Cup. But most of our episodes we have some idea of what we want to focus on. Either there's a great speaker that we want to kind of chat with, or there's a topic like why does it feel so wrong to say no to your boss?
Or there's a great Reddit story, Bree, that sometimes is actually your own story in disguise. but to but today we're actually just kind of shooting the psh Breeze, ⁓ and not having any real specific ⁓ agenda unless Bree did you want to throw something our way in terms of maybe some like a little morsel that we can chew on?
Pinaki Kathiari (00:58)
Ha ha ha.
Bree Bartos (01:04)
Ha ha ha.
nothing too specific. ⁓ You know, it's been a minute since the three of us have actually recorded an episode, just us. ⁓ what the listeners might not know is that we pre-record these episodes quite a bit in advance. ⁓ I made sure we had quite a library full before we even started posting this year again.
Chris Lee (01:25)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (01:43)
⁓ and so usually we're like six to seven weeks out, but this episode we are recording on June 22nd and it'll be going up this Thursday. I figured we'd all catch up. Like Chris said, we actually the three of us got to get together last week ⁓ because we were in Chris's city, we were in Toronto. ⁓ Pinaki, you had a busy week.
Pinaki Kathiari (02:08)
man,
Bree Bartos (02:09)
If you wanted
Pinaki Kathiari (02:09)
man, it was
Bree Bartos (02:10)
to recap what you were up to, we were running around.
Pinaki Kathiari (02:14)
Yeah,
no, it it's it's probably been like the most busiest that like I've ever been when it comes to like speaking and whatnot. It was like, yeah, three consecutive days of speaking, two brand new talks, one with live DJing, and ⁓ man, it it was a whirlwind. ⁓ but
Chris Lee (02:32)
So,
but well actually so you you you can't just drop with live DJing and not tease this one out because I think when people go to a conference, they expect to see someone standing on a stage and a whole bunch of PowerPoint slides behind them and lots of graphs and charts and s spouting all kinds of great wisdom. I I heard live DJing. You need to t you need to tell our audiences what was this? What happened?
Pinaki Kathiari (02:57)
Yeah.
yeah.
Bree Bartos (03:01)
Well first of all, you need to tell them that you're a DJ.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:01)
Well, you know. Yeah, you know. I think I think it was just been said. Yeah, but ⁓ you know, ⁓ yes, I got into DJing when I was like fourteen, ⁓ watched a movie and was like, I wanna do that and jumped in, got into music production and hip hop production, stuff like that. But just haven't really been kept keeping up with that stuff until maybe
Chris Lee (03:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:29)
Few years ago I started, I bought new equipment and decks and just been practicing at home and doing little home parties, family parties, barbecues and things like that. So I'm what you call the living room DJ right now. But ⁓ yeah, it was about a like, I don't know, I think it was about a year ago that Monique Zytnik ⁓ kind of did a I was on her podcast and then a few weeks later she did a post.
talking about DJing in communications and I like nerded out and like went on a comment and like just noted like five or six different ways that DJs and communicators are alike. And help that turned into a talk called The Dance Floor Doesn't Lie, which we gave last week. And you know it's ⁓ it's like we know what it's like to be on a dance floor that's just thumping. And we know what it's like to be on a dance floor that
doesn't go well and it just is empty. And we've seen that in work world and like boardrooms and corporate events and whatnot. And so as Monique and I were talking, we're like, yeah, we can see a similarity between DJs and communicators. So we basically gave a DJ lesson for communicators. Like, yeah, not only talking about reading the room, but also talking about like pacing and tempo and recovery and ⁓
And even how to remix and collaborate with folks. So it was a really great event. Monique and I were like both swapping speaking and DJing at the same time. So it was wild creating a session that had speaking points, a presentation layer, an audio DJing layer, and a crowd participation layer. So it was really fun juggling all that.
Bree Bartos (05:15)
Which it's so risky. Like if you think about all of the presentations that you've seen that have involved some type of video or audio, how many of them went without a hitch? There like there was the video actually played, the audio actually played. You don't see it often go flawlessly. And I it was risky, it but it was worth the risk. It was a really great session. The room, it was standing room only.
Chris Lee (05:15)
I love that.
Pinaki Kathiari (05:18)
Ha ha.
Bree Bartos (05:44)
⁓ it was packed. And like Pinaki mentioned, there was an interactive session. Like they had to be involved and they were and they were laughing. And ⁓ I was there taking photos. because I'm a photographer and videographer. It's part of what I do at Local Wisdom, is I go to these events with Pinaki and we partner with some of these events, and I take photo and video, and you could just feel the energy in the photos. I sent them to Monique and she was like, Wow, you can actually
feel that we were having fun and see that we were having a blast up there. ⁓ and you guys really were. It was great to watch.
Pinaki Kathiari (06:21)
nice. Thank you for that. That was that was
Bree Bartos (06:23)
Course.
Chris Lee (06:24)
Such
a smart topic, too. I I can't tell you how many weddings I've been to where the DJ is clearly having a good time playing their favorite tunes, but it's not translating to their audiences. And I think that happens probably more often than people realize. and I'm sure that's what you talked about, Pinaki, in terms of communications, is we focus and we get excited about what we want to say, but we don't always think about how our own audiences and what's the best way to have these resonate or land with.
Pinaki Kathiari (06:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's it's so true. And it's so hard to as well, like, you know, because I I know I went through that like thing as a DJ myself. It was like I just like this music that I like to play. And that's partially why I think I'm living room DJ, because I'm maybe sometimes for the most part just DJing for myself at the end of the day. But ⁓ yeah, I notice it a lot where like even by being aware that hey, we have to play for the crowd.
It's just that our own psyche just draws us right into what we're used to, the patterns that we enjoy, the songs that we like. Right. So it is really a difficult thing to break free. But just to be mindful of it takes w takes us one step there. You know? Like even like
Chris Lee (07:38)
What's what's
your go go to mashup? You must have one that you know is like your number one. It's like, my goodness, I discovered this and it's like peanut butter and jelly.
Pinaki Kathiari (07:41)
Go to mashup?
⁓ man.
Well, I don't have like one go-to mashup, ⁓ but the one the one I the one of my favorites, because you were talking about a wedding, ⁓ right? Like and I I talked about this on on stage was one of the weddings we had in our family was like a really diverse group. We had like Indians, Chileans, Texans all in the room. And you could literally see the dance floor changed based on the genre of songs. Like
A whole group would just leave, another group would come on, another group would leave, another one came on. ⁓ so I think one of the things I didn't want to I had a little segment in there, I I mashed up A.R. Rahman's Jai Ho with Run DMC, it's tricky. So, you know, so Bollywood and and rap, like 80s rap and type of thing in the mix. And it was just like, yeah.
Chris Lee (08:39)
that. I want to hear that. I love both those songs by the way. So I want to
I want to hear the mashup.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:44)
⁓
I I can send you a little link. But ⁓ but yeah, it was just like, you know, you just saw like, you know, the you know, like the the you know, the folks who are into like Bollywood, they're just doing their thing and then all of a sudden this like beep drops, then you hear like run DMC lyrics and you're like, What the hell's going on? And then that moment where everybody goes, ⁓ you know, and that's that's every DJ's dream, you know. Right.
Bree Bartos (09:02)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (09:09)
Love that. I love that.
Pinaki Kathiari (09:11)
But yeah, that's what it was about. It's like how do we create those types of moments inside your communications, whether it's internal communications or external communications? We had a lot of fun. So thank you for your the like the great feedback and whatnot. What have what else has been going on last week? There was a lot. That was just like one of the talks type of thing. We were also at like Jenni Fields Comms Reboot, which was an unconference, which which I truly do enjoy. That was really good. It was a really good crowd. We
Bree Bartos (09:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Lee (09:31)
Yeah. How was that?
Pinaki Kathiari (09:39)
So the way on conferences work is basically they the audience sets up the topic list and there is no one presenter. Everybody kind of speaks and learns from each other. Instead of presenters, you have facilitators, and I was a facilitator, and it was cool. I got to facilitate two sessions. One was both AI ⁓ inspired. One was on ⁓ ethics and governance, and the other one was on workflow process and tools. So it was not me.
Teaching, so to speak, but although I did drop a few things that I'm doing on myself, but it was great to see where everyone else is at in these topics.
Bree Bartos (10:19)
Yeah, and it was selfishly as the photographer, I had a great time. it was hosted in Contact Monkeys headquarters and you know, we're used to conference halls with no windows, you know, orange walls, orange carpet, orange ceilings, and this was
Pinaki Kathiari (10:22)
Mm.
Chris Lee (10:24)
Okay.
Bree Bartos (10:39)
windows and natural light and plants and like it was so nice to photograph. Like I was walking around and at one point I was like, you're walk you're smiling to yourself. You look like a goober. You need to like calm down. Cause I was just enjoying photographing it because not only was it pretty, but like there was just so much interaction and connection going on.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (11:04)
And when I'm taking photos of an event, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for like the people that are experiencing the event, that are connecting with others. And it was just everywhere. Like the and the shots were just endless. I I think I said this morning actually that I filled up a terabyte on my hard drive last week of photos and videos ⁓ in a four four day span.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:16)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (11:30)
Wasn't
there some quote that Bill Gates said like twenty years ago or something like that, saying that you'll never need more than, you know, a megabyte of data or something like that? Like w wasn't there wasn't there a famous quote, something like that? I c I can't remember what the
Bree Bartos (11:42)
Ha
Pinaki Kathiari (11:43)
man, a megabyte. I don't know.
Bree Bartos (11:45)
I d
Pinaki Kathiari (11:46)
I'll have to look that
Bree Bartos (11:47)
I can't relate personally
Pinaki Kathiari (11:47)
up. Yeah. No. I could always use their space.
Chris Lee (11:49)
Yeah, yeah. And now
we're talking about like terabytes. Never mind gigabytes. We're talking about terabytes. Wow.
Bree Bartos (11:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I well I did four days worth of photography. So IABC was two days, comms reboot. I took photos for Jenni Field. ⁓ so she's doing some branding work and asked me if I'd be interested in taking photos of her for her rebrand. And I was like, Of course, I love Jenni and I ⁓ just love to take photos.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:56)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (12:20)
⁓ we ⁓ we got onto the IABC main stage. ⁓ Pinaki, Chuck, Jenni. ⁓ they allowed us to take some good photos so that we have them on the nice big stage, which is very fun to have and convenient from like a branding and marketing standpoint. It's very, very convenient to have. and then I actually got to go
Chris Lee (12:31)
Right. That's so cool.
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (12:45)
Thursday with Chuck and Jenni, they recorded their frequency podcast in person in Toronto. And I got to go with them and take photos in the studio, which was really cool. And now I have ideas for us next time we're in Toronto, Chris. The three of us, so we can also do that because it was really cool. And like they had people, the office that it was Toronto Podcast Studios and like
Chris Lee (12:51)
Смарт
Very smart. Very smart. Yes.
Pinaki Kathiari (13:00)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (13:10)
All you had to do was show up and sit down. They had people that would record it, edit it, and send you the files at the end. And I have ideas for us guys.
Chris Lee (13:14)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (13:18)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (13:19)
I
you just made me think of an idea as well. ⁓ that's for another time for sure, but ⁓ I I did I so I did Google Bill Bill Gates saying this amount of data should be enough for anyone. So evidently the quote is actually 640k ought to be enough for anybody. However, ⁓ AI is saying that ⁓ that this quote was attributed to Bill Gates in 1981.
Bree Bartos (13:24)
Ha ha ha
Pinaki Kathiari (13:25)
Yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Chris Lee (13:47)
However, there's no verifiable evidence that he ever actually made this statement in public or in print. So it's a famous quote that's kind of attributed to Bill Gates, but whether or not he actually ever said it is anyone's guess. I don't think he's ever claimed to have said it, anything like that. But ⁓ we've gone from 640K, which probably at the time seemed like it was quite a lot, to a terabyte, which
Bree Bartos (13:49)
⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (14:07)
Six forty K.
Yeah.
Chris Lee (14:14)
I I'm not gonna do the math, but I don't know how many times more
Pinaki Kathiari (14:17)
feel like I feel like opening up my documents folder
right now and seeing what is like the smallest sized file all right the smallest sized file I have right now in my documents no I think so I I think so we do have a lot less than 640k I have I have but the smallest one here is one KB the screenshot yeah the
Chris Lee (14:29)
Is there anything ⁓ less than six hundred and forty K?
Bree Bartos (14:41)
A screenshot.
Chris Lee (14:43)
How do you get a screenshot under one K?
Pinaki Kathiari (14:46)
I don't know, what is this a screenshot of? it's a screenshot it's a one pixel screenshot. What's the nice yeah, what is this? There is so yes, the one there's screenshots I've taken of color palettes so I could use the like eye the eyedropper tool to grab the color and stuff like that. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (14:47)
Very tiny tiny screenshot.
That'll do it.
Chris Lee (14:59)
yeah.
Bree Bartos (15:02)
Like
we had to put a physical server in my house, in Pinocchio's house, that talks to each other for the amount of photos and videos that I take. Cause I was like clogging up the OneDrive and like who wants to pay for cloud storage for photos and video files? Like that's crazy. ⁓ so I'm sorry to whoever did say that. Probably wasn't Bill. Maybe could have been Bill. ⁓ I need more storage than that.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:19)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (15:20)
Yeah. ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (15:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, I need more stories than
that. I need that on a t shirt. Need more stories than that. But yeah. How how was what about you, Chris? Like what I know you were traveling a lot. You were doing a lot of like talks. What was going on at at your events? What were some of conversations that you heard?
Bree Bartos (15:33)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-hmm. You were
And you also
Chris Lee (15:44)
Well it's
Bree Bartos (15:44)
were
Chris Lee (15:44)
actually
Bree Bartos (15:44)
doing some you were doing some fun personal travel I wanna hear about too.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:48)
yeah.
Chris Lee (15:48)
Yeah, yeah. So I I'll I'll go over all of it. So ⁓ just on the work side, in April I was at the HR Management Institute in Muskoka here in Canada and ⁓ it's just a gathering in a really great resort. It's the JW Marriott on Lake Rosso, ⁓ and it's put on by ⁓ the IPMI and they put on a lot of these types of events for ⁓ basically HR leaders.
Bree Bartos (15:52)
Yes.
Chris Lee (16:17)
And I hosted a round table. It's it was actually called a think tank about you know just the urgency and relevance of you know doubling down on a reimagined employee value proposition because there's been so many factors now that have been impacting the competition for talent. So I think ⁓ AI, ⁓ the obvious elephant in the room is reshaping jobs quite literally as we speak.
every day, every minute now. ⁓ it's reshaping the value that we bring to our roles. ⁓ so that was one of the factors. And then of course tran pay transparency. So the age of information asymmetry is well behind us now. I think employees have those abilities to kind of know what are other organizations paying for similar types of roles and what are other employees saying about their experiences at these organizations. And so there's a lot more ⁓ ability for
Pinaki Kathiari (16:56)
Mm.
Mm.
Chris Lee (17:16)
employees ⁓ to understand their value to an organization and what it's like. So what this means is ⁓ when you think about organizations ⁓ using best practices, I think that this is the time to really abandon ⁓ best practices and ⁓ think fundamentally the the workplace of the future requires ⁓ innovative thinking, new thinking, more courageous thinking. ⁓ because in the B2C world, if you look at marketing in the B2C world, if
Pinaki Kathiari (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (17:45)
People are ⁓ willing to pay a price premium, spend, you know, forty-five thousand dollars on a Harley Davidson versus you know twenty thousand dollars on a different bike. They're they're voting already with their money, tens of thousands of dollars. They're so loyal to these brands that in the case of Harley Davidson, they literally will tattoo the corporate logo on their skin to show their allegiance to this brand. This is a for-profit company. ⁓ it's a great company, a great brand. They make great bikes.
Pinaki Kathiari (17:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (18:15)
I I think that much is undeniable. But to and I'm not saying that in workplaces we're ever gonna be at a point where people are gonna start tattooing the corporate logo on their skin, ⁓ showing their allegiance. But did you did you really?
Pinaki Kathiari (18:25)
I did think about it.
I
well my own company, I didn't think about it.
Chris Lee (18:32)
Maybe maybe actually maybe this is ⁓ something we didn't know. Maybe you actually have a local wisdom tat that we
Pinaki Kathiari (18:35)
Yeah. No, I don't I don't. I always wanted
Bree Bartos (18:39)
I
Pinaki Kathiari (18:39)
to get local wisdom cufflinks though. I did want local wisdom cufflinks. That was a thing. Yeah. As you get the top. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (18:41)
Ooh, I like that.
Chris Lee (18:43)
Get the tag. I think you should you should get inked up.
Bree Bartos (18:46)
My ⁓ the president
of my previous company incentivized the sales department that if they like hit X like if they hit their sales goals by the end of the year he would get a tattoo of the company logo. they didn't, but they did hit the one where he dyed his hair neon orange because that was a company brand colors. ⁓ so he did have neon orange hair for a while. No. No
Pinaki Kathiari (18:59)
What? Did they hit it?
All right.
Should I should I try that? Should I try that? Is that what you're saying? thank you. Thank you for saying that,
Bri. Thank you for saying that. But Chris, you know, I do love like this ⁓ like roundtables and forums, think tanks like that. Like cause you get to like learn from everybody else and see where everybody's at. So and you're the thing you're right, like from employee value prop to play pen pay transparency.
Chris Lee (19:15)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (19:15)
I don't think we need to do
that.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:36)
We have to be different and innovative and memorable 'cause times every changing. But innovation is always scary to folks. How did you how did you feel your tables were taking the conversation? Like where were people feeling? Were most people on the same page and or were they different? And where were they?
Chris Lee (19:54)
Yeah, I mean, you know, we talk a lot about how ⁓ in internal comms, ⁓ one of the phrases that we use a lot ⁓ in our industry, ⁓ and I'm sure it's no different, ⁓ local wisdom, Gallagher Communication, ⁓ but we talk about building consumer grade experiences. And ⁓ part of the reason why I I get frustrated when I hear that term is because it it just tells you exactly how far apart.
the employee experience actually is from we're not even striving for world class brand experience. We're just saying, how do we even just get to an average consumer grade experience, right? What is what are they doing differently? ⁓ and some of these great brands, what are they doing a little bit differently than we are with our employees? And I think it's it partly it's just the the way we view the relationship between employers and employees. Like we don't really view it as a symbiotic relationship or a partnership, right? Can I
Pinaki Kathiari (20:21)
Ha ha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah and it
Yeah.
And it just shows where we were putting our priority. Like imagine like saying, Yeah, we're gonna create a man grade level event or a man grade you know, as opposed to a woman level you it just like says like, wait a minute, what do you mean? Like why why is it that a thing? Can it just be a human level, you know, ⁓ event, you know?
Chris Lee (20:57)
Yeah, exact exactly.
And I love that. And
I think that the like the the tired terms that we should try to move away from is best practices, ⁓ even best in class. Cause I if i if if what you're trying to compete with is the existing class of employee experiences, it's like being the fastest snail. Like I don't really think that is ⁓ the hallmark of what we should be striving for. I think we should be looking to change the game in meaningful and significant ways, much like
Pinaki Kathiari (21:16)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (21:34)
What you did at the conference, and abandoning just like the the tired kind of PowerPoint slide and talking head, you actually set up a DJ booth in real time to showcase insights from you know from this art, right? And so ⁓ I I just think ⁓ you know, best practices, best best in class, consumer grade, we sh we should be looking for we should be striving for better, even employee-centric communications.
Should give way to human-centric ⁓ experiences. And I and I I I really think strongly about reimagining ⁓ the experiences that we all have. And the conferences that we're talking about is a great example. I think Jenni Field ⁓ had a great, great thought about you know building ⁓ this comms reboot as an unconference. And you're exactly right. ⁓ so not only the HR Management Institute, but
Pinaki Kathiari (22:13)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (22:31)
Gallagher hosted a communication summit in Houston in May. And also I just hosted a roundtable at ⁓ the Strategic Capabilities Network in Toronto last week. And the big thing is what stood out for all of these is the roundtable element, the ability for people to be active participants and part of the dialogue, as opposed to be kind of
Pinaki Kathiari (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (22:57)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (22:59)
Spoken at, which I I know is rich given that we're on a podcast and it is it's not a dialogue with any of our listeners. We're just talking at them.
Pinaki Kathiari (23:07)
Well what's fun is when we go out on the road when we do the why does it feel so wrong, ⁓ what is it, the unpanel discussion, we turn the audience into our guests and so it turns into a whole interactive thing. So I'll give us kudos on that, Chris.
Bree Bartos (23:21)
You know, I want to float
Chris Lee (23:22)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (23:25)
the idea out there at some point of, you know, maybe taking Reddit reacting to Reddit at work onto a stage at some point because then we could give our live insights, the audience could give their live insights. ⁓ but that's just a thought in my head. ⁓ but going back to what you were saying, Chris, ⁓ I agree completely because, you know, we went to
Pinaki Kathiari (23:32)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (23:49)
Transform in March for the X Factor Summit ⁓ hosted by Chuck Ghost and Icology. And that was a great event. It was kind of like a hackathon. ⁓ where the morning it was presentations from Chuck and a group of experts. So Pinaki was one of them, Ann Mellinger, Lindsay Turner, and Jason Antoine. Is that how you say his last name? ⁓ Antoine. and he ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (23:57)
Mm.
Antoine.
Bree Bartos (24:19)
it was presentations in the morning, but then in the afternoon, like we dived into everyone has a problem. What's yours? Let's fix it. ⁓ and we ⁓ it was a collaborative session where everyone was able to get opinions from other people throughout all different phases of their career, ⁓ with all different industry experience. And it was so nice because by the end of it, they like everyone that was there, there was
Pinaki Kathiari (24:27)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (24:46)
They were all buddied up and they decided to exchange numbers so they could be accountability buddies with each other. and like continue to follow up with each other. So then Chuck was like, Well, this is a great idea. ⁓ we're making this a real thing. We're going to all follow up with each other. And so it was so nice because I felt like that was just proof of like how much people connected and like truly like found a network at that event to
Pinaki Kathiari (24:53)
Mm.
Bree Bartos (25:15)
willingly be like, okay, we're following up after this and we're going to keep each other accountable. ⁓ and also like I love an accountability buddy. Like I think that's great. Like I benefit as someone with ADHD from an accountability buddy like tremendously. So I love the thought of them initiating that. ⁓ but those events that we've all we've just talked about, they as they were great, but they are over.
Chris Lee (25:18)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (25:28)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (25:40)
unfortunately, and we are only in the middle of conference season. ⁓ so do you guys have anything that you guys are up to?
this summer, this fall. ⁓ Pinaki, I know your schedule. ⁓ because it is also my schedule. ⁓ I know that we'll be at ALI Boston. We'll be at Icology's Flyover Festival. Pinaki, if you want to talk about some of your sessions there. But Chris, do you have any plans for the rest of the year as well?
Pinaki Kathiari (25:56)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (26:14)
Well, it just dawned on me that the most important trip that I made I ⁓ that you asked about and I didn't even mention. I know. So in May, ⁓ my wife Sydney and I celebrated our twenty fifth anniversary, ⁓ which is yeah, I mean I honestly, to be honest, I I c I attributed I attribute so much of the longevity to luck. I I think p I I honestly personally I believe that ⁓ luck is not given enough
Bree Bartos (26:18)
Your personal trip.
Congratulations.
Chris Lee (26:43)
credits. Because we obviously everyone likes to credit like hard work and compromise and ⁓ all these different things which are all all matter without a doubt, but also luck is really, really useful as well. If you're unlucky, there's a saying in ⁓ professional poker, the the world's best pokers always say, the b best poker poker players always say, I'd rather be lucky than good. And
I I think it it's it's true in life too. I don't I don't think we really think about luck. And I definitely agree that you can you can make your own luck as well. but ⁓ you know, so Sydney and I we ⁓ we wanted to go on a trip together. So we actually ended up going to the French Riviera ⁓ for a week and then we flew over to Naples from Nice and then we spent another week in the Amalfi coast. And ⁓ I'm not gonna do that thing where it's like, it was amazing, it was beautiful, it was all those things.
Bree Bartos (27:27)
Nice.
Chris Lee (27:37)
But there was there was lear there was learnings as well. So two key learnings for me. One learning was there's no there's not a lot of flights, if there's any at all, that go direct from Toronto to Nice or to Naples for that matter. So you actually have to go do a layover. And for us both ways, it was Munich. And I thought like an hour layover would be more than enough time. And boy was I wrong. So
Pinaki Kathiari (28:06)
Really.
Chris Lee (28:06)
you we landed there and one of the things that you just you don't account for is sometimes the plane like taxis for like 20 minutes ⁓ looking for an open gate that kind of stuff but then we get in and in Europe you have to go through passport control and that's a big lineup and we realized we were looking at ⁓ at our watches like we're gonna make our connecting flight. So we did you know the most human thing and most annoying thing
Bree Bartos (28:13)
Mm.
Chris Lee (28:35)
possible. We actually butted in front of the line. We just said, I'm so sorry. Our flight is is already boarding. Do you mind if we just kind of bud in? And I'm sure no one loved it, but just like all right, whatever, just go, go, go. And so we went and we were sprinting across the airport. We made it. And then on the way back, same thing, because we already had booked our flights. And so we went to the front of the line. We said we're so sorry, but we just heard it's last call boarding on our flight.
Pinaki Kathiari (28:52)
okay.
Chris Lee (29:05)
do you mind if we go and find and this there was something was wrong with there was like these terminals where they automatically scanned your passport. They weren't working, so the lineup was longer than usual. And there was some lady near the front of the line because we said, We're so sorry, our our flights boarding. She said, All of our flights are boarding. And so we went, okay. So then we have to go to the back of the line. And then ⁓ about a minute or two later, somebody came from Air Canada saying, Is anyone going to Canada?
Pinaki Kathiari (29:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Chris Lee (29:34)
And we put up our hand and said, Well, we just missed our flight to Toronto. And she said, No, it's we're holding it at the gate. Are you going to Toronto? It's like, Yeah, we'd love to if if the flight's still there. And she said, Okay, you're coming with me. So we went to the front of the line. We went past this this lady that that yelled at us. ⁓ Yeah, exactly. And then I know, I know. And so we again we we just barely managed it. Yeah. And then the other the ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (29:43)
Whoa.
Bree Bartos (29:48)
Now you have an escort.
Pinaki Kathiari (29:48)
Ha ha ha ha You're like who
are these guys? That's that's Chris Lee. You know who that is? That's Chris Lee.
Chris Lee (30:04)
The other thing about me as a traveler, I'm not really a stressful, like I'm not stressed when I travel. It's just I'm there's worse things that can happen than missing missing a flight. And I remember ⁓ when we were flying from Nice to Naples, we're just hanging out in the airport lounge in Nice, which by the way, if if you've never been, they have a spectacular lounge or it's really nice lounge. So we're just hanging out and then my wife Sydney is like, we gotta go, they're gonna be boarding soon. It's like
Bree Bartos (30:11)
Couldn't it be me?
Chris Lee (30:32)
Yeah, but it takes a long time. There's they're gonna file everyone through and like w we don't need to like we checked in our bags. We don't have to we don't have to be among the first. And so I know, but like it and so she gets the the anxiety about like we gotta go and like she'll feel better. And so we went. And wouldn't you know it? They were actually they started the boarding process earlier than what was originally stated. So most of the line had already filed through, they were already on the airplane, and so we didn't hold up anything, but Sydney was like, see, I told you and then
Pinaki Kathiari (30:51)
⁓
Yeah.
Chris Lee (31:02)
I said, well, I mean, we still made it. I but it was but I I realized that not everyone ⁓ kind of thinks in the same way. Like Sydney is somebody that definitely gets anxiety, like she just wants everything buttoned down. And I'm not like that. I'm just ⁓ pretty sympatical. Like it's gonna work out. I I'm a big believer that everything's gonna work out at some point. I might we might miss a flight, that might happen, it's fine. But for me it's just part of the experience, right? And it's not that I'm I'm trying to be late for anything, but it's just
If it happens, it happens and it's okay. Like it's it's it's still a good time. Anyway, the so the the the trip was amazing, but I just wanted to kind of think about those very human moments that we had that were were learnings for sure for us.
Pinaki Kathiari (31:33)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (31:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Reminds me, I almost forgot during my layover, which my my plane got delayed and delayed and delayed. ⁓ but during my layover, so I was at the Chicago airport, and I was like at the end of the terminal, and there was like a sushi restaurant, and I was sat there and ⁓ I could see like the last terminals, and there was this big wall of the sushi restaurant, so I couldn't see down the terminal where everyone was coming from.
All of a sudden, this group of like 45 teenagers, probably like seniors that just graduated high school, come and they are just like casually walking, laughing, and then they get a little close enough and they're like, I hear no way. There's no way it left without us. And the plane left without them. 45 teenagers, not a parent in sight.
Pinaki Kathiari (32:33)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Wow.
Bree Bartos (32:41)
Missed their flight. I don't know if they thought the plane would wait for that many of them, but like it was the door was locked, the plane was pulling away, and they threw a fit. They started pounding on doors, like they are being threatened to get a security called on them. They were flipping off the pilot through the glass. They were yelling at flight attendants because like the flight attendants couldn't do it. Like they're not the customer service reps. They're just there to get on a plane. Like
Pinaki Kathiari (32:43)
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Wow.
What?
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (33:10)
It was insane. They were fighting with each other and turning on each other and like everyone was calling their parents crying and I was just watching it all happen.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:14)
It's your fault.
⁓ man, that's a life lesson.
Bree Bartos (33:24)
I was like
Chris Lee (33:24)
Wow.
Bree Bartos (33:24)
I
was like, how did that many of you miss a flight?
Pinaki Kathiari (33:27)
Yeah.
Like that flight is like half full, right? Like, you know, something like that too, right? Like the flight is just like, hey, this is the eas the flight attendance, this the easiest flight that we got right now.
Chris Lee (33:27)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (33:30)
Right.
They it was probably one of those
Chris Lee (33:36)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (33:37)
flights where it was like you need to check your bags, there's gonna be no space in the overhead because this is a full flight, and then fifty of the passengers just weren't there.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nice. Well
Chris Lee (33:46)
And those passengers
that actually did make it onto the flight had no idea how much of a bullet they dodged and having all these rowdy teenagers on there with them, right?
Pinaki Kathiari (33:52)
Ha ha ha.
Bree Bartos (33:54)
Yeah. A flight attendant
was getting like bullied, and I was like, I like kind of stepped between the flight attendant and the children. I was like, wow, can't believe 50 people missed a flight and like ushered the flight attendant away. And she was walk she started walking and because she was trying to leave and they were like picking fights with her. ⁓ and she she complained to me about everything they were doing and saying, and like talking to me about how like
Pinaki Kathiari (34:00)
man.
Chris Lee (34:00)
⁓
Good for you.
Pinaki Kathiari (34:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (34:23)
Just entitled they were being and I was it was rough to watch, but also a little funny.
Chris Lee (34:29)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (34:31)
of my airport entertainment for like a good hour and a half.
Pinaki Kathiari (34:31)
Little you know. The human experience has a sense of irony here. No, yeah. You know what? Like I think that's there's something about that, right? About like getting out ⁓ and being with people, you know, good or bad, experience or not, like you kinda like get something out of it. You get to see the world, you get to experience this stuff, and it's just always fascinating to me.
The human experience, right? From like Chris, while you're talking to folks at that event about, you know, value prop or like pay transparency, like how it is to kind of hear those insights from those people, those true feelings come out. But like when you're in person, it's like the true self comes out, right? You you get more of the true self, more of the vulnerability, especially when you're in an interesting circumstance like those forty-five kids who just meet miss their buttons. Like you wouldn't get them like that.
Chris Lee (35:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (35:26)
in any other situation. So there is something about getting together. I think I'm excited about that. I think being in person is where it's at. And I think that's one of the things that I'm really more interested in about is like getting together, meeting up with folks, more unity and things like that.
Chris Lee (35:42)
So
and I and I agree with you on that. And I love your perspective, like in the workplace. Obviously, there's a battleground for employers in terms of managing ⁓ for especially for those that are motivated to have returned to work versus remote work. And I've actually turned around a little bit on that since the beginning of the pandemic. So I remember my boss was saying, I I want bums and seeds, I want people back in the
Pinaki Kathiari (35:58)
Uh-huh.
Chris Lee (36:09)
On a regular basis, maybe not five days a week, but certainly regular, at least, you know, three times plus every week. And in my mind, you know, for the longest time I was thinking, ⁓ you know, ⁓ that's not for everybody, and it can be disruptive. But I think I've turned around a little bit on that because I do think that there's ⁓ a special quality to being in person with like-minded folks, collaborating on things.
Pinaki Kathiari (36:33)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (36:37)
there's an energy that's not really matched on screen in the quite the same way. And I also just think it's it's healthier for people. So I'm not saying you gotta be in five days a week or have any kind of policy about you it's gotta be a minimum two days a week and you need a a floating day or or whatever, an anchor day. But I I do feel like there's there should be a balance that would be useful, I think, for most people to have between
Pinaki Kathiari (36:42)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (37:02)
and in person. But you know, this you we're talking about in person being valuable, but what what's the magic sort of elixir? Like what's the mix?
Pinaki Kathiari (37:02)
Yeah.
yeah, it's
well one, it's like ⁓ mandating is always like never the best idea because no one has fun being mandated to do something. Like when was the last time you enjoyed being mandated? I just like asking that question. When's the last time you enjoyed being mandated? ⁓ right? Nobody likes that. Nobody likes to be told what to do because like when you get told what to do, you're like, ⁓ I kinda don't want to do it now. But ⁓ I think that's the idea is to make it cool. Like make it
Chris Lee (37:24)
Yeah. Yeah. It's
Bree Bartos (37:25)
Hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (37:41)
Fun, make it something that like people will enjoy. Like for us, we're fully virtual. I actually just this morning, you know, told folks like, yeah, like let's get together more and stuff like that. But I'm not saying you have to get together on like Tuesdays and Wednesdays and do this. I'm not saying and I'm saying like, hey, make it a point to try to get together so you can build rapport with yourselves, with clients. And you know, I'll pay for it. Like go out, have fun, get a get a meal, get a this, you know.
You know, play some billiards, whatever you guys gotta do. And like I'll more than happily invest in that to kind of help you all build rapport. That's the way I'm handling it. It's cause like, yeah. Like I was talking to ⁓ HR executive a while ago because we have our annual ⁓ retreat where ⁓ I don't know it's retreat, I don't I forgot what we call it, like a well annual, like all company our yeah, annual get together where the whole company gets together. And
Chris Lee (38:15)
Right. Love that.
Pinaki Kathiari (38:37)
I don't make it mandatory. And like this HR executive was I said we're like, that's strange. Like, why don't you make it mandatory? Because I was just like, because it's just not fun if it's mandatory. If I have to force somebody to be there who doesn't want to be there, you know what? They're not gonna have fun and they're gonna like cause it to not have fun for other people. What I'd rather do is create an event that makes people want to be there. Right. And that's where we're kind of like going. Like, you know, that's where like the
The DJing and stuff like that comes into play. Like Chuck Ghost and I did a talk about like physics and communications where we had everybody ⁓ do the wave in their seats, and that was pretty awesome to see, but everybody was having a good time. In fact, Bri, I wanted to do ⁓ like a post of photos that you have of not any of the speakers, but just the crowd, because you could see like the genuine fun that people were having when you do these interesting creative things. And then you could also see actually
Chris Lee (39:13)
huh.
Bree Bartos (39:31)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (39:34)
The opposite of it, 'cause when you it's really stark for for conferences to see photography, because you could see when people are not engaged, they're all like looking at their phones, looking at something else. All right.
Bree Bartos (39:44)
You could I
mean that's what I notice in sessions, right? And I I I you know, I messaged you last week about a session I was in where I was having difficulties because like there weren't I was I was trying to get crowd shots. I was trying to get like good crowd because I I love a crowd shot. I I got some incredible crowd shots at Unite, ⁓ that like are some of my favorite that I've gotten. I got some great ones at Transform. A lot of it's like, you know, the
really colorful lighting from the stage makes for cool photos. But ⁓ there was one session where I was trying to get crowd shots and everyone was on their computer like replying to email or on their phone scrolling. And ⁓ it wasn't until not to play favorites, but it wasn't until Pinaki's sessions
that I was actually like able to get good crowd shots. ⁓ and it was also really exciting because half like one wall of the room that his sessions were in was all windows. So like I had a great week with lighting. ⁓ but yes. But like I was showing Chuck some of the photos I got of the crowd of the crowd from your guys' session and he was like that looks like stock imagery because it's like
Pinaki Kathiari (40:46)
Lighting worked well for Bree.
Bree Bartos (40:59)
the whole table is just smiling and bright eyed and like thoroughly engaged and enjoying it. He's like, that looks like something that is stock that like people post for I like, Yeah. And I was like, no, that's that's your session. And then yeah, I got some really good ones of the crowd from the DJ sessions and just like people laughing and enjoying themselves. And actually and when they're laughing and enjoying themselves and you can see it, you know they're listening. Because
Pinaki Kathiari (41:02)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (41:09)
Like it's hard to believe it's real. Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (41:11)
Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (41:28)
It's just clear that they're really getting something from the presentation. Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (41:32)
Yeah, they're reacting. And you know, like
Chris Lee (41:33)
In? Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (41:34)
just to
say about like getting together and what that feels like. I think ⁓ one of the speakers at IABC World Conference last week was ⁓ Becca Chambers. And I think Bree got some photos with ⁓ Becca as well. Becca said that messaging is what you say, storytelling
Bree Bartos (41:45)
yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (41:53)
Is how you say it to make people feel something. And that's really the difference. It's one thing to say, hey, we want you all to come back into work, but it's another thing to say, hey, ⁓ I just want y'all guys to have a good time together and have fun. So why don't y'all get some pizza together or go for some pool or go have dinner together, etc.? Right? It's just how you say it to make people feel something different.
Bree Bartos (42:19)
Mm.
Chris Lee (42:20)
Yeah. ⁓ well, you know, on that note, ⁓ I I honestly feel like we have a closing tagline now for our episodes 'cause we' almost invariably we say, we could honestly talk about this forever. and I and I know we're we're encroaching we're encroaching on
Pinaki Kathiari (42:24)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (42:32)
Ha ha ha.
Pinaki Kathiari (42:32)
Yes. That's a good one.
Bree Bartos (42:36)
You know, maybe we
make that artificial, like
Pinaki Kathiari (42:38)
Maybe that's it. We could talk
about this forever. All right, now we know.
Chris Lee (42:39)
We can tie one this forever.
TM
Bree Bartos (42:42)
Cause I was also I was also gonna like
broach the subject of like maybe we're just human at work now. Maybe we're not human at work between the seasons. Like, you know, like who knows how the branding will continue to evolve and change, but we hope you all will continue to tune in and find out. And definitely let us know what you like, because I'm curious. ⁓ like we say every week, I'm the producer here and ⁓
Chris Lee (42:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Bree Bartos (43:10)
Usually I just kind of go with what I want to do. ⁓ but I'd love to know what you want to do. So if there's anything that you'd like to talk about, any topics that you'd like our attention on, please let us know. ⁓ and then I am also, as of recording this, I'm working on getting our human at work subreddit up and live. And my goal is to have it done as you're listening to this. So definitely check out the links.
In the description, we'll have a link to it. If you have a story that you want to share, if you are a Reddit user and you come across the workhorse story, you can post it a link to it on the human at work. you could post anonymously, you can let us know who you are. ⁓ you could DM me on LinkedIn if that's how you prefer to get your story out. But yeah, I definitely want to make it open to you guys to submit everything because you guys are the humans at work. ⁓
And we're here to help if we can, or just react sometimes and be left a little speechless. But we do our best.
Pinaki Kathiari (44:11)
Absolutely.
The human experience is fascinating, amazing, and it just makes us who we are. So thank you all for listening. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode of ⁓ Why Does It Feels So Wrong to Be Human at Work between the Seasons or whatever we're gonna call it next. Thank you, tune in and we'll catch you next time, folks.
Chris Lee (44:32)
Thank you.