#2 – Fr. Michael Butler: Why are young men flocking to Orthodox Christianity?

In episode #2 of the Wayshowers podcast, I speak with Fr. Michael Butler.

Fr. Michael is a very unique clergyman with a diverse set of skills and interests, ranging from men's work to mentoring boys and winning bodybuilding competitions.

In the conversation, we focused a lot on the longing of young men for more meaning in their lives. Many of them come to Fr. Michael completely clueless, but when they start getting their lives together, they find love and purpose.

This is an inspiring and hopeful conversation that I hope you will love.

Here is a list of the links mentioned in the podcast

• tiktok.com/@avg2alpha
• instagram.com/avg2alpha
• youtube.com/@avg2alpha321

Creators & Guests

Host

Eivind F. Skjellum

Men's coach. Writer. Family man. Truth teller.

Guest

Fr. Michael Butler

Orthodox Priest, men's coach & bodybuilder

What is The Wayshowers Podcast?

In the Wayshowers podcast, we have deep conversations with visionary leaders from across the world on the future of men & masculinity. Hosted by Eivind Figenschau Skjellum, men's coach and founder of Reclaim your Inner Throne.

This transcript is auto-generated by Adobe Premiere Pro

Errors may occur. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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00;00;02;09 - 00;00;23;08
Speaker 1
I've encountered a lot of younger men in particular who in some respects are just clueless. If you'll pardon the vulgarity, they couldn't get their shit together. 15 years of smoking weed and playing video games and jerking off to porn have not been the best preparation for life. There's just something about both of them that appeals to me, and I think it's the structure.

00;00;23;19 - 00;00;50;24
Speaker 1
I think some guys are just coming because they're sick and tired of chaos. A lot of what I'm seeing in the young men is a genuine desire to grow up. They really want to get something substantive and meaningful to the rest of the world around them. And then, oddly enough, they actually find a life, you know, after they've been looking for your soul, you know, when they finally grow up and become adults.

00;00;50;28 - 00;01;07;14
Speaker 1
Well, a woman actually wants to take a second look at them. Who knew? Stop waiting. Go for it. Failure is bitter, but regret is ten times worse. I could have conversations like this all day long and never grow tired of it.

00;01;07;26 - 00;01;34;09
Speaker 2
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another Away show podcast episode, the podcast where we speak with visionary leaders from the whole world on the future of men and masculinity. Today I have the great privilege to introduce you to Father Michael Butler. Michael is an Orthodox priest. He's a mentor for young boys, a men's coach, and also a bodybuilder. So a very unique man.

00;01;34;22 - 00;02;01;22
Speaker 2
And this was a very inspired conversation about his work with the young men who are coming in the hundreds to the Orthodox Church in the United States. What are they seeking and what are they finding? We will also hear about Michael's vision for the future of men and masculinity and what he enjoys about being a man. So without further ado, let's just dive in.

00;02;02;24 - 00;02;21;19
Speaker 2
Welcome back to another episode of The Way Shores podcast. Today, I have the great honor to have Father Michael Butler with me here, and you are something as unique as a bodybuilding Orthodox Church Elder.

00;02;23;09 - 00;02;32;16
Speaker 1
I'm not quite an elder in our tradition that has a very special meaning that's laden with respect and holding this. I'm just an old priest.

00;02;33;01 - 00;02;38;14
Speaker 2
Ryan are you on a path to becoming an elder or is that something like being a pope or something like that?

00;02;38;21 - 00;02;48;15
Speaker 1
No, that's that's very much a charismatic office. And I see I'm not holy enough to be an elder. I don't pretend to be one. I don't play one on TV.

00;02;49;22 - 00;02;52;12
Speaker 2
So you're a body building Orthodox Church?

00;02;53;17 - 00;03;08;26
Speaker 1
I'm just a priest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I do that. I do a bit of men's work and I have my finger in a number of different pots. But yeah, I'm probably a little bit out of the mainstream, and that's okay.

00;03;09;23 - 00;03;38;22
Speaker 2
I think that's why you're here today. That's why I want you to be part of this conversation because of course, this podcast is about talking with visionary leaders in the space of men and masculinity around the world because and I think you would agree with me on this, we we need to find some answers as to where we're going because men in our culture, we're not really it anymore.

00;03;38;29 - 00;03;58;02
Speaker 2
It seems like our time has sort of, culturally speaking, been been passed on. We're in some new era of, I don't know, the woman or equality of diversity or whatever. And I guess a lot of men are wondering who are they in this day and age? I don't know if you resonate with that description.

00;03;59;18 - 00;04;25;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do resonate with it. And you know, the old Moorings have been lost. Yes. And there is there's a great deal of talk now of men needing to redefine themselves. I never really liked redefining masculinity. I never liked redefining femininity either, for that matter. Every time someone came along and redefined men or women, we seem to get worse.

00;04;27;14 - 00;05;07;00
Speaker 1
And so my approach, consistent with sort of the rather conservative church that I belong to, has been to look back at what has always worked traditionally and the things that seem to be hardwired into us, particularly as men by way of natural law and natural endowment and physical endowments and those sorts of things. And to use those as guides to what it is that that makes us optimally men and to use those things in ways that not only benefit ourselves, but certainly are beneficial to the people who are around us.

00;05;07;13 - 00;05;36;00
Speaker 1
Because the most mature masculinity is certainly not self-serving. It's given in service. I mean, the way that I formulated well is that first of all, my masculinity is a gift to me from God for which I need to be grateful. But it is not given to me for myself. It is given to me so that I can then use it gratefully and generously in service to everyone else around me, be that my family, my business, in my case, my congregation of.

00;05;36;00 - 00;05;55;26
Speaker 1
But wherever it is that I happen to have influence and to use those gifts for the benefit of others. And I found it to be to work in my own life. And I found that it seems to make not only my life meaningful and better, but it improves the lives of everybody else around me. And it seems not to stir up very much controversy.

00;05;56;12 - 00;05;59;22
Speaker 1
So I think I'm on to something very good.

00;06;00;16 - 00;06;06;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was just watching one of your presentations and Ryan Nicholas event up at his barn and I don't know, Maine or something.

00;06;07;19 - 00;06;08;11
Speaker 1
The state of Maine.

00;06;08;16 - 00;06;12;22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So you've been quite close to his organization.

00;06;13;07 - 00;06;14;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, a quarter.

00;06;14;02 - 00;06;22;00
Speaker 2
Of man is. Is that your way into men's work or have you been involved with men's work for longer than that?

00;06;23;16 - 00;06;33;22
Speaker 1
I joined a paid online subscription group within the Order of Men. That's called the Earn Council.

00;06;33;28 - 00;06;34;11
Speaker 2
I see.

00;06;34;21 - 00;06;59;21
Speaker 1
I've paid access to. They have closed groups. It's a large organization now, 1213, 1400 men belong to this. And we have groups, you know, small groups of 15. We have larger groups. We have groups devoted to various interests and all of we work on 90 day goals routinely. In fact, we have just begun second quarter of this year.

00;06;59;23 - 00;07;25;11
Speaker 1
Everybody has just rewritten all of their quarterly goals for the second quarter. There is a huge amount of accountability and a huge amount of mutual support honestly, to give to to give a plug. It's one of the best groups I have ever belonged to in my life, and I've never met a better group of men who were willing to give their time and their expertise immediately and freely to anybody who asked.

00;07;25;22 - 00;07;47;20
Speaker 1
So it functions very much like a mastermind. You have a question, you just put it out there and the answers just pour in. But that's only been about the last three years, a little over three years that I've been with, that my interest in men's work goes back over 30 years. In fact, probably even longer than that. I lost my dad when I was eight years old.

00;07;48;07 - 00;08;17;18
Speaker 1
I am 62 now and I grew up with a stepfather with whom I was not particularly close. And I had always wondered, you know, what it was to be a man. I didn't really feel comfortable in my own skin. I was the fat kid who was always picked last, you know, for sports and all of that. So it's very uncomfortable in my body, very awkward, socially inept for a lot of years, actually, I think I was depressed through most of my childhood.

00;08;19;06 - 00;08;48;14
Speaker 1
And then even when I got into college, I majored in psychology to see if I could figure myself out, because as they say in all research, there is me search. So I tried to find myself and I sort of worked on post adolescent male identity as an undergraduate. And then I discovered my my psychology program at the time was archetypal based on young James Hillman was my department chair, So we did a lot of work in our while.

00;08;49;00 - 00;08;54;22
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. And so that was where I got was that, that was at University of Dallas.

00;08;54;27 - 00;08;55;14
Speaker 2
Dallas.

00;08;55;24 - 00;09;26;01
Speaker 1
In the late seventies and early eighties. And so that's where I kind of got my start in, in an interest in archetypes especially. And then I just continued on. I began looking around for what eventually became known as men's work. Even before Robert Bly published Iron John, I was hearing echoes. There's something going on in California about, you know, some old poet shaking things down in the woods, you know, drumming and telling stories and this sort of stuff.

00;09;26;01 - 00;09;46;28
Speaker 1
And I was absolutely fascinated by it. And that was I couldn't find any information. So there was there were no interwebs in those days. So I looked where I could. And eventually, as the missile women's movement got under way, I read everything by them. I knew all of them, all of the names. I listened to, what recordings I could.

00;09;47;24 - 00;10;04;04
Speaker 1
And eventually, as I became a little more mobile and there were more and more opportunities to participate in things, I eventually began to do that. Also, I did some work with the Myth of Men's Movement, particularly in Christian Men's circles. Father Richard Rau, a Catholic priest.

00;10;04;04 - 00;10;05;08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I like him.

00;10;05;28 - 00;10;26;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Is men's work is really very good. And I attended his men's rites of passage in upstate New York when John Eldridge, the evangelical Protestant, published Wild at Heart, I went out, I think I was the third of retreat that he did out in the mountains in Colorado. So I attended his thing and that just sort of started me off.

00;10;27;05 - 00;10;30;09
Speaker 2
To the rest of the OGs.

00;10;30;09 - 00;10;52;08
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I sort of knew that I'm old enough to have kind of come across all of them. Yeah. So yeah, so I've sort of had my fingers in all of this for a very long time. And then about, gosh, what was it, 14 or 15 years ago? I was in a period of very severe burnout in my life parish and a very difficult time in my life.

00;10;52;08 - 00;11;19;27
Speaker 1
I basically had a panic attack or an anxiety attack and got taken to the emergency room. Have you strapped down to a board hyperventilating and crying hysterically? Wow. Oh, and I was assigned. Yeah, it was a mental case. So, you know, the the sweet young thing who came with her clipboard said, I know who you need and you need this particular therapist who was my supervising therapist when she was going through school.

00;11;19;27 - 00;11;40;17
Speaker 1
And it turned out to be this crusty, old, hard nosed psychologist who grew up on in the South Side of Chicago, which for those of you in America, the south side of Chicago is not. This is a very tough, bad neighborhood of gangs. And, you know, depressed living and everything else. So it was.

00;11;40;17 - 00;11;40;22
Speaker 2
Didn't.

00;11;40;22 - 00;11;49;19
Speaker 1
Robin Moore No, it wasn't Robert Moore. No. One. Robert Moore is friends with Dramatists. I'll give him a shock at the moment is.

00;11;49;19 - 00;11;51;08
Speaker 2
Robert Moore was also based in Chicago.

00;11;51;08 - 00;12;12;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's in Chicago, but in a much nicer neighborhood, Right? The South Side is a really rough part of town, so any rate. But he basically knocked me into shape very quickly. Dave didn't allow me any wiggle room and just basically pummeled me into where I needed to be. And I dearly loved him for it. And that began a quest to.

00;12;12;13 - 00;12;32;12
Speaker 1
Okay, now I see I've made some mistakes in my life. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. And it really started me on a path of self-development. I didn't have much resource. I didn't know quite where to go. I went back to my men's work. I reread everything. That was a huge help. I started finding other men's development, personal development, self-development work.

00;12;32;17 - 00;12;59;25
Speaker 1
A lot of business books were starting to come out at that time, so you're beginning to see. I can't remember who was out in those days, but you could name all of the popular ones. Now I've read them all. Tim Ferriss, Jocko Willink You know, some of the names escapes me at the moment, but I started really working on myself, and then I discovered Robert Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy.

00;13;01;09 - 00;13;26;10
Speaker 1
And so I discovered I was either with covert contracts and a bunch of that recovering nice guy here. So I had to I had to do some work there. I had finally realized if I'm going to do the work after taking lawyer's advice and not try to do it on my own. So I found myself a local therapist who was qualified, who had been who had been trained by Glover in Nice guy syndrome, as it were.

00;13;26;10 - 00;13;41;23
Speaker 1
So I worked with him. I ended up in a year long men's therapy group for recovery, and I got this right and it did me a world of good. It really did. But at the end of about the end of about a year, they went off to do something else. And I said, you know, I've been with a therapy group.

00;13;42;03 - 00;14;00;16
Speaker 1
In a therapy group, everybody thinks that they're sort of down one and are trying to get back to sort of normal. I wonder what would happen, you know, if I got to a group of normal guys who were trying to get ahead. Yes. And that's when I found the order of men and they are in Tulsa. I joined that.

00;14;00;25 - 00;14;29;20
Speaker 1
And that really accelerated my self-improvement and really put me on a path to some substantial personal growth. And it's been out of that, that I've reached an age now where I say I really need to give back and as I am closer to the tumor than to the womb, I've encountered a lot of excuse me, younger men in particular, who in some respects are just clueless about what to do.

00;14;30;17 - 00;14;54;10
Speaker 1
They begin coming to the church. A lot of young men, single young men from about college age 22 to about 32 have begun coming to the Orthodox Church. They're coming by the hundreds in America now. They're looking for, you know, a substantive religious faith. They're looking for structure. And we have a huge amount of structure. So they're looking for structure there.

00;14;54;19 - 00;15;15;29
Speaker 1
You know, since you're familiar with with archetypes, they're looking for the archetype of of initiation. They need a safe, structured container and a ritual elder who knows what's going on. And can help them with that. And a lot of times the young men didn't just need religious instruction. There was something else that was going on that, if you'll pardon the vulgarity, they couldn't get their shit together.

00;15;16;18 - 00;15;40;18
Speaker 1
You know, somehow they they had managed successfully to launch into life, but somehow it wasn't optimal, that there was something missing. And what I found was they seemed to be stuck somewhere between late adolescence and early adulthood. And there's like a bump in the road there that they were just not able to get past. And they needed help growing up.

00;15;41;23 - 00;16;02;02
Speaker 1
And that's what I found. Okay. These these young men coming, they not only are looking for Christ in his church, so there's religious instruction information to be done, but there's life formation in what it means to be a man. And the way I've been been formulating it is the church does a pretty good job of helping them to be good men.

00;16;02;20 - 00;16;42;26
Speaker 1
But the church is not doing a good job at helping to be good at being men in the first place, you know? And that's Donovan's famous distinction between being a good man and good at being a man. And they really needed help on that more foundational level. And so it was trying to get them be good men or good at being men that I began working on the ancient classical virtues of prudence, you know, moderation, courage and justice as ways of getting them a foundation on which to be good at being men so that they could then build Christian virtue on top of it and into have legs.

00;16;42;26 - 00;16;53;15
Speaker 1
It seems to have traction the young men are taking to it. It seems to make sense to them, and it's helping them to kind of grow up. So you are.

00;16;53;15 - 00;17;02;07
Speaker 2
Using then millennials, old virtues, masculine virtues to career mentor.

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;31;00
Speaker 1
20 Oh, yeah, yeah. This is I'm not innovating anything here. I mean, this is this was all, you know, in ancient Greco-Roman culture and philosophy, most of which was taken up entirely in the early Christian church. So I am minding my own Christian tradition in order to find resources so pertinent to, you know, of contemporary men's issues. And it's kind of fun.

00;17;31;00 - 00;17;44;13
Speaker 2
Is there anything particular about these four that you find to be especially potent, or is it just that it's one framework that gives them the structure and the.

00;17;44;26 - 00;18;16;02
Speaker 1
Okay, yeah, the I like it because it because I'm grossly overage located and I have a Ph.D. in church history and patristic. So I studied for centuries and I just revel in that stuff. But it's also very traditional classical Western European language that's been around for centuries. So a lot of people kind of understand it. Also, at least in America, Stoicism has risen a little more in prominence in the last few years, mostly into the work of Ryan Holiday.

00;18;16;02 - 00;18;40;20
Speaker 1
So there are a lot of young men who have gone back to reading their Marcus Aurelius, their Epictetus, their Cicero and all of that. So it resonates with them as well. And what I discovered from years of doing archetypal the Neil Young in psychology, is that the four classical virtues line up exactly with Robert Morse for principal male archetype because through that, yeah, okay.

00;18;41;11 - 00;18;49;29
Speaker 1
Courage is basically warrior archetype. MM. Magician archetype is prudence.

00;18;50;07 - 00;18;51;02
Speaker 2
Prudence, Yes.

00;18;51;18 - 00;19;10;26
Speaker 1
Because prudence is the application of, of generic wisdom to specific situations on which I have to act right now. So this is the application of knowledge, this is technical skill and ultimately this is adding value to the world. Moderation has to do with lover energy because that has to do with errors and desire.

00;19;11;19 - 00;19;34;12
Speaker 2
Okay, moderation is So tell me more from moderation for me, sounds like the opposite of excess and the lover energy is like desire and the shadow of it obviously is to to reach stuff yourself with sensual sensory stimulation. So tell me more about how moderation relates to to the lover archetype.

00;19;35;01 - 00;20;02;24
Speaker 1
All right. Yeah. As you said in lover archetype, particularly for men. Yes. That's what what we're most familiar with. And working with your more calls of the universal solvent. And it tends to dissolve a lot of things. And I remember it comes online. It's basically a men's midlife crisis. And I remember when it hit me in my forties and my emotional range, like broadened out, you know, my, my, my happy is were a lot happier.

00;20;02;24 - 00;20;14;01
Speaker 1
My saddens were much sadder. I would listen to music and just burst into tears. Yeah. And I would I would do it to myself. I would intentionally listen the stuff that would bring me to.

00;20;14;22 - 00;20;17;25
Speaker 2
Deliberately more emotions.

00;20;17;25 - 00;20;43;02
Speaker 1
And this just because I could feel like I had this emotional depth that I never had access to before, it felt so damn good to have to be able to feel okay, but like you say, it can go to excess. Yes. And so, I mean, even in in classical culture, you know, even in Aristotle, he defined virtue as, you know, the Greeks called it mythologies thought moderation is best.

00;20;43;02 - 00;21;29;10
Speaker 1
So so virtue is the middle point between two extremes. Mm hmm. Okay. So we don't want excessive desire, you know, which is galloping promiscuity or, you know, stuffing ourselves with food or whatnot. But neither do we want to be cold or frigid or completely unfeeling. And so an appropriate and moderate appropriation and a conscious of accessing of the warrior archetype rather than letting it run off with us when we can incorporate that into, you know, with some our own ego control really adds a genuine depth and feeling and an appropriate level of desire to our lives that we otherwise might not, might not experience.

00;21;31;05 - 00;21;41;00
Speaker 2
Is the conscious engagement with this really like alive desire, abundance, kind of energy that we call the lover archetype?

00;21;41;16 - 00;22;00;03
Speaker 1
Thank you. You put it much better than I do. Yes, yes, that's it. So it doesn't mean clamping down on it or putting a lid on it. No, you can't do that. You end up with problems when you put a lid on it. But we need to channel it. Yes. And it needs to be directed. I see it and not allow it just to go wild and to take over.

00;22;00;26 - 00;22;31;10
Speaker 1
And then the last archetype for justice. This is the king. Are are the justice is the less virtue corresponds to the king archetype, because justice has to do with our relationships with other people. And the king archetype has to do with gender activity and of the bestowing of gifts, the recognition of others, the lifting up of others, the the the managing of one's realm, whatever that may be, it'd be family, your department at work, whatever community you may you may be living in.

00;22;31;10 - 00;22;52;24
Speaker 1
And so I think there's a real clear there's a real clear line up I can see between between more's archetypes and the ancient classical virtues. So I just thought, yeah, I do a lot of work with more as archetypes, but I thought the classical virtues might have a broader resonance. A broader except it's in the.

00;22;53;06 - 00;23;14;28
Speaker 2
Roots of these concepts go further back into history and thus have a different kind of resonance in us as well, even though we may not even be aware of them. I think the way that these things work is, is that there are these that our cultures have deep resonance chambers far back into time, and then we activate them even to today.

00;23;14;28 - 00;23;57;13
Speaker 2
We can we can somehow feel like there is a homecoming, you know, because yeah, truth be told, I haven't really studied Western philosophy that much because in my early years I got deep into Eastern philosophy and Buddhism. And, you know, this has been a very hit, of course, for for many decades to to flee the west and go east and I think and you seem to be suggesting that from what you just said about hundreds, maybe even thousands of young American men coming your way, that there is a revival of classical, Western philosophy and culture.

00;23;58;13 - 00;24;24;27
Speaker 1
There is, in some circles, I think in other respects, for there maybe not so much conscious of a revival of of a full out of Western philosophy or most Western cultural ideas. I think some guys are just coming because they're sick and tired of chaos. Yeah, and anxiety and ruthlessness that's just surrounding them and they're looking for someplace solid to stand.

00;24;25;16 - 00;24;38;26
Speaker 1
And I think especially those who come who are coming to us in the church are also looking for some kind of a transcendent ideal to which they can give their lives. They need something bigger to live for.

00;24;38;26 - 00;24;40;11
Speaker 2
This is so important for us, man.

00;24;40;27 - 00;25;01;21
Speaker 1
You know, whatever they're finding and I've said this to a number of them and they get real uncomfortable when I say it, but I said, So what? You're telling me is that 15 years of smoking weed and playing video games and jerking off to porn have not been the best preparation for life. They say to you, Father, yet you have to hit so close.

00;25;02;06 - 00;25;23;06
Speaker 1
But for a lot of guys, that's how they spent the last 15 or 20 years of their life. And it's not a real good preparation for everything else that's coming later, you know, So they come. They know they need to grow up. They know, you know, they need to step into a more adult life, a more mature masculinity.

00;25;23;12 - 00;25;51;11
Speaker 1
They know where it is, but they have no idea how to access it. And they know they need to be there and they know they need to live for something more than their immediate pleasure. And there's got to be something structured out there that can take care of the chaos in the world that they're living in. And they just they want to be calm and center and they want to give honestly, they really want to give something substantive and meaningful to the rest of the world around them.

00;25;51;29 - 00;26;11;22
Speaker 1
They really do. They want to give and they're just not sure how. And so that's that level. I mean, you know, I can you know, as a priest, I work on the religious level, on the spiritual level, but this is deeper than that in some ways that are more foundational. And so I felt I needed to work with these guys on a more foundational level.

00;26;12;08 - 00;26;34;00
Speaker 1
Otherwise, the spiritual edifice has no foundation and it won't be firm. So this is really broadened out. You know, what is between started for me is pastoral ministry and my church to a much broader, considerable ocean of what younger men are going through and to begin trying to offer some way of helping them through that.

00;26;34;26 - 00;26;38;10
Speaker 2
You feel like this work has found you or did you find it?

00;26;39;28 - 00;27;00;13
Speaker 1
That's a real good question. We may have found each other. I certainly didn't ask for these young men to start showing up. They started showing up about five years ago. This was even before the COVID lockdown. We had a whole group, about 12 of them show up in like just a few months time. Everybody's like, who are these guys and where they come from, you know?

00;27;00;13 - 00;27;10;20
Speaker 1
And then the next question was, well, where are all the women? Because now we have a bunch of young men who are ready to settle down and get married and start their families and women.

00;27;10;20 - 00;27;12;02
Speaker 2
Case is it made.

00;27;12;02 - 00;27;43;06
Speaker 1
Me go, wow. After the COVID lockdown, we had another huge influx of of more young men, probably 18 or 20 of and very few women. It's there. I have no real explanation for other churches. I know other Orthodox churches, even have experienced more influxes of women. But for some reason I don't know if it's my personality or just the part of the society geographically around where I am here in suburban Detroit.

00;27;43;22 - 00;28;05;12
Speaker 1
That's that's drawing young men here. I really don't know what it is, but very typically orthodox conversion tends to be instead of be male led. So even if there are families that come to the church, it's the husband and father that are bringing them. It's rarely the mother. There's just something about orthodoxy that appeals to men. I think it's the structure.

00;28;05;26 - 00;28;27;14
Speaker 1
I think it's very clear definition of truth. I think it's the ascetic discipline that's almost military in some respects, you know, that that they're looking for. And also in orthodoxy, like, you know, like I cautioned you at the very beginning of our interview, we just said, are you a kind of elder? No, that's a very specific title in Orthodox thought.

00;28;27;26 - 00;28;49;24
Speaker 1
But the young men are they aren't looking for dad to point to. I think they are genuinely looking for a mature, masculine fatherly figure who can help them to grow up and to whom they can, with whom they can have a genuine relationship. And that is very important in Orthodoxy. You know, the sort of the very personal element.

00;28;50;05 - 00;28;57;17
Speaker 1
And so I think that we're finding that at least the ones that are coming to our church right?

00;28;57;17 - 00;29;36;25
Speaker 2
So let's play devil's advocate for just a moment. Okay? Yeah, I think that's fun personally. So the Orthodox Church obviously is very loyal to some ancient ideals and ancient Western ideals. And here we are in a conversation about the way forwards for us as men in masculinity and masculinity and in the culture at large, to look back 2000 years to gender roles and how things were seen back then wouldn't really be the answer we're looking for.

00;29;37;09 - 00;30;10;23
Speaker 2
So here there's something happening. There's this orthodox Christianity that is calling men back and given that this is this is this ancient tradition and that, yeah, there are probably many women out there that feel that this church is not very aligned with feminist values and things like that. How how can how can you envision the orthodoxy of of the Orthodox Church as part of a way forward for us as men?

00;30;11;22 - 00;30;49;16
Speaker 1
Okay, first I'll point I'll mention this qualification of it's not just the Orthodox Church that's seen this influx of young people. I think the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing it, too, particularly the more traditional, observant Orthodox or Catholic parishes and the traditional, the more traditional observant of Roman Catholic religious orders like the Carmelites or the Benedictines. You know, those religious houses, like the more traditional they are, they can't build rooms enough to accommodate all of the people who want to come and join the religious orders.

00;30;50;01 - 00;30;54;24
Speaker 2
But if they want to live there as as monks and nuns or the nuns.

00;30;54;24 - 00;30;56;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;30;57;05 - 00;31;13;08
Speaker 2
I am one of these. We have they're quite well represented in Norway, actually. We have two Cistercian monasteries. Oh, you're not Cistercian. It's a branch of the Benedictine Order, obviously. Yes. And time in both of them in I think it was the summer of 2020. They're beautiful.

00;31;13;27 - 00;31;20;18
Speaker 1
They are. I, I studied with Cistercians. I see my undergraduate. My graduate was. I love them dearly. Yeah.

00;31;20;18 - 00;31;31;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, for four French dudes, I don't know how this works exactly, but with some reason for French men end up in the middle of the Norwegian woods, and there they make cheese.

00;31;33;11 - 00;31;36;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay, so you have to support yourself somehow.

00;31;37;05 - 00;31;40;25
Speaker 2
Yes. That's part of the Benedictine. Yeah.

00;31;41;00 - 00;31;48;13
Speaker 1
Doctrine or exploratory work and prayer for the Benedictines. That's. That's it. Yeah. Sorry I.

00;31;48;13 - 00;31;51;15
Speaker 2
Interrupted you. Let's go back to that. These rooms that are being built.

00;31;51;18 - 00;32;24;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's all right. But I mean, it's traditional Catholicism is attracting huge numbers of young people as well. And even I've I've come to find out very conservative branches of reformed Calvinist Christianity also are attracting people. The more liberal, the more mainstream, the more hipster kind of contemporary evangelical churches. They have a certain appeal, but I think it's waning and sort of the more traditional and grounded expressions of Christian are the ones that are growing.

00;32;25;03 - 00;32;50;01
Speaker 1
And I think if you just the easy answer is it's, you know, I think people are fundamentally tired of trying to define their own identity. You know, they can find it in something that is traditional and structured already and that as I mentioned earlier, or at least the more traditional expressions of the Christian faith, are grounded in natural law and are consistent with sort of the grand design of the universe.

00;32;51;03 - 00;33;09;16
Speaker 1
It takes only a fundamentalist who can't appreciate that the same God who created the laws of nature in the laws of physics is also the one who wrote the Scripture and it's the same one who is incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ. So ultimately, there is no contradiction between science and faith. You know, it's it's the same truth that informs it.

00;33;09;16 - 00;33;36;21
Speaker 1
So I don't have to speak in clear religious terms. I can talk about natural law. I can talk about, you know, sort of the natural order of the requirement, bigger than women, you know, okay, because we have a particular role in society and we do have social roles. You know, families are fundamental units. Why? Because children cannot defend themselves and somebody needs to go out and bring home food while momma is laid up nursing and raising small children.

00;33;37;04 - 00;33;55;14
Speaker 1
I mean, these are realities that are hard baked into human life. You know, nowadays we get the state to step in and take care of those roles, but the roles are still there, you know, we do not survive. You know, if we don't have people who can take care of mama and baby, you know, while they're young and defenseless.

00;33;56;21 - 00;34;17;22
Speaker 1
So, you know, we can talk about very natural things like this that should make common sense to anybody. And they are still consistent with traditional masculinity and feminine roles. I think they still have a place to play and sort of long winded and circle around to how do we carry all of this forward of I am not in any way as a traditional list.

00;34;18;07 - 00;34;59;29
Speaker 1
I'm very traditional in my beliefs and all. But there's a difference between someone who's traditional and a traditionalist. I think someone once put it a traditional ism is that what is the dead faith of the living? You are something that is basically, you know, it's basically just clinging to old forms, to cling to old forms. No, no. We need to bring the best that is that our tradition forward and find a way for it to have an expression and a value today, because there's something the reason that it's in the tradition is because it has been speaking to human beings for millennia, that there's something fundamentally true there, just like there's something fundamentally true in

00;34;59;29 - 00;35;24;22
Speaker 1
archetypes that are that are true across cultures and across time, that, you know, they're universally applicable. And so there are fundamental aspects of human being that I think are there. And when we lose that or we pretend that it doesn't matter, that DNA doesn't matter, that gender doesn't matter, that we can create whatever identity that we want it, you know, we enter the realms of the ridiculous and the ludicrous.

00;35;24;22 - 00;35;40;15
Speaker 1
It just does not work. And reality is staring us in the face. And I think some people are beginning to react with that signal. We've gone a little too far that way. So I begin to see a little bit of the pendulum swinging back the other way, like.

00;35;40;15 - 00;35;43;13
Speaker 2
A counter reaction on some level that some.

00;35;43;13 - 00;36;04;01
Speaker 1
Reactions at the counter reaction. Yeah. And you know, you also have the extremes on both sides that are always shooting at each other because that's how they get their jollies. That that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about there are there are things that are fundamentally true, like archetypal, true psychological and true that we need to maintain because they're part of what makes us human.

00;36;04;01 - 00;36;32;22
Speaker 1
And humans function optimally, individually and as small groups and families and as a broader society when these things are recognized and respected. And so I think we we muddle our way through. And I'm never an advocate to to looking back to say, oh, the ideal society was what, 19th century Russia or 16th England or seventh century Byzantium? No, it's not.

00;36;32;22 - 00;36;52;15
Speaker 1
That's not our world anymore. But they did have some truth and they had some insight. If it's useful, let's use it to carry it forward. You know what? Who was it said? You know, the the wise man learns from the mistakes of others, you know, so we can learn from the little something from history. The, you know, the normal man learns from his own mistakes.

00;36;52;19 - 00;37;19;28
Speaker 1
Right. And the fool never learns them. So, you know, I rather than say, okay, look, we figured out some of these things, so let's let's not reinvent the wheel every generation and start everybody at square one and let's see if we can make some progress and make our lives better and enhance the world, then to where people can live more fruitful lives and see some genuine flourishing and a genuine value to the people around ourselves.

00;37;20;23 - 00;37;37;18
Speaker 1
And I think it happens. We've been shown the way how and to the degree that we've forgotten or moved away from it, we'll move back because it works best for everybody. Mm hmm. That's. I think that's it. So, you know, I don't have a grand program for that. We need to do these five things in order to do it.

00;37;38;09 - 00;37;43;15
Speaker 1
I think we do have quit hitting our head against the wall and we say, okay, that hurts. And it's not to. It may be good.

00;37;43;19 - 00;38;07;11
Speaker 2
I think you're making the argument that there is something in this belief or form of spirituality, of this cultural expression that is just simply natural. Yeah. And that once we are on the other side of whatever we're trying to figure out as a culture and as a society right now, nature will reassert itself. That's what I think you're saying.

00;38;07;27 - 00;38;31;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, it will. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, ultimately you can't ultimately fight it, you know? And, you know, if that means, you know, and I know not everyone likes to hear it, but I don't think we're quite as free as we like to pretend that we are. You know, I'm absolutely free. I have absolute autonomy to define who I am or define my identity or to be who or whatever I want.

00;38;31;22 - 00;38;52;28
Speaker 1
Well, no little things actually kind of limit that, you know, I mean, little things, birth order, you know, firstborns, do, you know, behave in one way, second borns behave other ways. The youngest child in the family has a rather different experience of life. You know, you you are fluent. You're fluent in more than one language. I'm an American.

00;38;52;28 - 00;38;56;20
Speaker 1
I speak English. You know, there are things you know.

00;38;56;29 - 00;38;58;20
Speaker 2
You're fluent in the language of God.

00;38;59;12 - 00;39;11;14
Speaker 1
So I hope to improve your ideas. I hope so, you know, but, you know, there are there are things that you can say in Swedish that that make sense, that you that you have Norwegian. Me, Norwegian.

00;39;11;16 - 00;39;13;19
Speaker 2
I live in there. I live in Sweden, but I'm Norwegian.

00;39;13;19 - 00;39;18;20
Speaker 1
You live in Sweden. But you know, we forgive you. Yes, I know. To my ear you all sound the same.

00;39;18;20 - 00;39;21;06
Speaker 2
But because you're American, my friend.

00;39;21;24 - 00;39;43;29
Speaker 1
Because I have American, I'm with some American and I get that. But there are things that you can say in Norwegian. Yeah. That don't make sense in English that you have to explain. Yeah. There are things you can say in English that are absolutely hysterical, that it's not funny at all in Norwegian, you know? So even the language limits our ability to be absolutely free socioeconomics status.

00;39;44;04 - 00;40;01;06
Speaker 1
Where you raised fluently or were you raised in poverty, That's going to determine how much access you have to the world and how free you are to express yourself or to or to have experiences. There are a lot of things that limit our freedom that we don't often like to think about.

00;40;01;06 - 00;40;35;25
Speaker 2
And one of the things I'm glad you bring this up and I would like to add one additional thing is that we are born into or invited into or even in doctrine, raised into worldviews like narratives about who we are and what we belong to. And where we come from and all of these things. And you can actually be indoctrinated by a false worldview and think you're free, but you're actually an imprisoned or you're a prisoner of the distortion.

00;40;36;10 - 00;40;37;20
Speaker 2
You're a prisoner of the lie.

00;40;38;25 - 00;41;11;14
Speaker 1
Yes. And world events of the last few years. Yes. Have really brought that home to me. And what it made me do. And I don't think I'm better or wiser than anyone else is when I have caught some people in what I believe is a purely ideological stance. Yeah, rather than to be critical, it makes me sit back and want to say, Oh, I disagree with that.

00;41;11;14 - 00;41;53;15
Speaker 1
What have I been indoctrinated into? Have I freely chosen my own views or am I being led by the nose, by people whom I hold in respect and esteem? And to what degree am I not free? And it's really caused a great deal of soul searching for me, for me. And I you know, I don't quite know the answer to that except, you know, to maybe talk to hold even our own opinions very lightly and be willing to be educated and be willing to have difficult conversations sometimes, you know, like you can't have conversations and comment boxes on social media.

00;41;53;15 - 00;42;24;04
Speaker 1
You know, everybody just, you know, insults each other. They hear one thing they don't like. And it's it's just it's it's a dumpster fire. Yeah, but I've had opportunities. And where there are good groups of people where you can, you know, disagree without disagreeable the kind of good solid conversations that used to be quite normal. And they didn't say, oh, I cannot be your friend anymore because you support X, y and Z, you know, And we were not so, so fragile.

00;42;25;24 - 00;42;40;02
Speaker 1
And so I've been able to help some more of those conversations have been absolutely wonderful with people with whom I vehemently disagree on some things. But I learned something and they learned something. And we're still friends at the end. And I think we're both I think we're both better.

00;42;40;07 - 00;42;42;13
Speaker 2
That's not a given anymore. Well.

00;42;42;28 - 00;43;10;16
Speaker 1
No, to that. You know, that kind of that kind of relationship is not a given. Yeah, but I value very highly because of that. Yeah, Yeah, we know we don't have to agree on everything, but I can still respect you, you know, and I can, you know, if I can at least present my view to where you can say, okay, I disagree with you completely, but I can see how a reasonable person could come to that conclusion.

00;43;10;16 - 00;43;26;22
Speaker 1
I'm happy with that. You know, So it's not you're just a kook. You're just a fool. You're just an idiot. You're just one of those. You know that. That's that's that's no argument there. Then you haven't been heard and, you know, nothing substantive has taken place there.

00;43;28;00 - 00;44;05;11
Speaker 2
I have a massive curiosity triggered as you speak right now, because I'm sat here with Father Michael Butler. You're a you're a you call it a priest as well. I guess I'm the Orthodox Church. And there is a there is a chasm that divides our culture presently. So we have we have polarities that are so far apart and that can't seem to the other side, so to speak, as anything but evil.

00;44;05;11 - 00;44;40;27
Speaker 2
And no matter if what is being revealed about my sight, which is bad at whether it's objectively true or not, isn't relevant. It seems like in this extreme polarization, because anything and especially now that reality is becoming more and more virtual, anything can be questioned is sitting fake. Is it a I is now becoming more or is it like a deal make like?

00;44;40;27 - 00;45;17;06
Speaker 2
And so we have we have this quite scary actually left in culture where where we seem to be completely blind to our own flaws but very much aware of the flaws of the other side. Oh yeah. And, and from your perspective, you know that for me I'm quite new to the more Christian worldview. I'm developing a much closer relationship to Jesus Christ lately.

00;45;17;06 - 00;45;45;22
Speaker 2
But, you know, as I told you, I was in the East or for many years, but I'm coming back home. And when when I see what's happening, for me, that has certain implications because of the division and the lying that is happening. It's like I address inmates with certain things that are read about in the Bible. And I just want to know from the perspective of somebody so deeply immersed in in the Christian doctrine.

00;45;45;22 - 00;46;05;27
Speaker 2
And, you know, the thing is, is there is something happening now of the particular significance spiritually that we're going through some kind of challenge that is some kind of persecution or a or is it is it just the political drama? Like what? How do it?

00;46;07;23 - 00;46;43;28
Speaker 1
I personally and this is pure personal opinion. I tend to be rather cool about reading into contemporary events, some sort of apocalyptic or biblical significance. I write about things only because I remember I came to Earth orthodoxy about nearly 40 years ago, and those were the bad old Communist days and the refugees in Western Europe and America who had fled the Russian Revolution and many of them were still alive.

00;46;43;28 - 00;47;14;03
Speaker 1
I knew some of them personally. I knew officers from the White Army, you know, that fled in the face of the Bolshevik Revolution. Yes. And, you know, there were certain elements there who saw of communism as the Antichrist. You know, these are the last days, you know, the imminent return of Christ is here, whatnot. And well, it was certainly anti-Christian and it was it was a terrible, horrible it was unspeakable experience for the Christians living under communism.

00;47;14;21 - 00;47;37;29
Speaker 1
It wasn't the end of the world. And so I think every generation sort of tends to want to absolute ties up. This is it. It's the it's the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They finally come over the hill. And I don't know that that's the case. Crisis in the Gospel says there will always be wars and rumors of wars and famines and earthquakes and all kinds of catastrophes.

00;47;37;29 - 00;47;56;05
Speaker 1
The end is not yet. I think that doesn't mean that we don't have to, you know, maintain some resilience in the face of evil. I think we need to stand up to it, certainly, And I think there are times when it is more difficult to be a man or a woman of faith. And I think those times are now.

00;47;56;26 - 00;48;22;24
Speaker 1
But, you know, even even then, when you know, when I think about that, remember, there was a very famous Catholic bishop by the name of Fulton Sheen. He was quite popular even on television in America in the 1950s and 1960s. He was one of the first great religious media personalities. And he said anything Sheen s in and you can hear audio recordings of him in a marvelous way.

00;48;23;09 - 00;48;50;29
Speaker 1
I wish I could speak like the man. His oratorical skills were incredible. I just love it. It was a great one for storytelling, too. And I remember he gave a retreat, I think, in Ireland in 1975, and he said in 1975, we are at the end of Christendom. Is this not Christianity, Christendom? What is Christendom? Christendom a society based on the gospel ethic that is finished and it's marvelous, he says.

00;48;50;29 - 00;49;06;21
Speaker 1
When he was a boy and I remember when I was a boy, you could leave your bicycle laying on your front lawn and not no one thought about it. You know, your doors were left unlocked. You didn't lock your house because no one was going to go in. No one was going to bother your things. You can't do that anymore.

00;49;07;10 - 00;49;36;12
Speaker 1
You know, the world is a different place. It now costs something more to be a person of faith. And I think than simply the way that it is now. Yeah. Oh, and I don't know that the church serves her God well or serves her people well. If the church take sides in the political and social controversies of our day, if I could riff for just for just a moment.

00;49;36;22 - 00;49;59;00
Speaker 1
If you look in St Luke's Gospel, the account of the crucifixion, it says that Jesus was crucified when he dies on the cross. The centurion who is there by him says, Truly, this was a righteous man. And the crowd that was howling for his death, it says, went away beating their breasts. Okay, so you see, he was the victim of mob violence.

00;49;59;04 - 00;50;16;25
Speaker 1
Now, okay, if you remember, you're in a charade and the whole scapegoat theory and all this is what's playing out here. They knew Christ had to be evil. If we just kill this man, everything will be right in the world. And this insurance says, no, this was not a bad guy. This was a good guy. And the people said, Oh, dammit, we wanted it.

00;50;16;29 - 00;50;56;24
Speaker 1
We wanted him to be the bad guy so we could feel good about ourselves. And they go with that didn't work. So they go away and they in sorrow. But it says that his mother and the other disciples stood at a distance watching these things. So I think that maybe the role of people of faith is not to take direct part in the controversies of our day, but to stand a little apart, to be a witness to them, and to show everybody involved, both sides, that there is a third option that does not involve conflict, that does not involve name calling, that does not involve taking sides, but rather like, you know, more's understanding of

00;50;56;24 - 00;51;03;05
Speaker 1
this, archetypes were neither this way too much or that way too little. But the mature expression of the Aryan Semi.

00;51;03;11 - 00;51;06;18
Speaker 2
Which is similar to the Aristotelian Aristotle.

00;51;07;11 - 00;51;08;16
Speaker 1
Yes, there is the theory.

00;51;08;22 - 00;51;09;27
Speaker 2
And is that how you say I.

00;51;09;27 - 00;51;34;18
Speaker 1
Think everything for you? Yes, yes, yes. Well, it transcends it. And I think that people of faith can do that and we can stand apart from the countries of our day, bear witness to something that is that is true. That's higher, that's conciliatory, that makes room that actually has room for everybody. And where we can find a common humanity that is deeper than the momentary things that divide us.

00;51;35;12 - 00;51;41;16
Speaker 1
It's beautiful. You know, I'll get done preaching, I'll get off. But that's so, yeah.

00;51;41;16 - 00;51;42;14
Speaker 2
Well, I appreciate.

00;51;42;14 - 00;51;43;24
Speaker 1
That. It may be a way forward.

00;51;43;27 - 00;51;48;15
Speaker 2
It's a message of reconciliation, forgiveness and understanding.

00;51;49;16 - 00;52;11;12
Speaker 1
Now, especially, you know, we when we think of a time when part of Europe is at war right now. So it comes maybe a little closer to us. And yes, America's involved in that battle and like God, America tends to be involved in all the wars of disappear. It never, never seems to disappear. Our fingers are all over all of that.

00;52;12;28 - 00;52;34;00
Speaker 1
But how can we stand apart from that? Can we still love our country and yet call it to repentance? I think we can. And it's a difficult place and it requires a creativity and maybe a patience and maybe a lot of prayer and meditation to I'm not quite sure, but there is a way forward. It's not easy, but we can do it.

00;52;34;00 - 00;53;05;00
Speaker 1
And I think it's ultimately it's all through the more mature and the more hopeful way that again, benefits everybody. And so again, you know, that's sort of a very traditional Christian understanding brought into the contemporary situation and can point forward and not just backwards. Great. I think there again, there is still a persistent message, a perennial philosophy. You know, if you want to put it in philosophical terms, that is always evergreen and can still be beneficial to us if we'll pay attention to it.

00;53;06;29 - 00;53;38;07
Speaker 2
With, you know, pointing forwards for the Michael, let's spend a little bit of time imagining what the role of men in masculinity is going forwards and what will it take for us to thrive as men in this culture and in these complex times in the years to come? Do you see do you see anything from the work that you're doing with these young men that's relevant?

00;53;38;07 - 00;53;45;03
Speaker 2
Do you have any reflections that we could take with us into this conversation about where we're going?

00;53;45;09 - 00;53;48;12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I have a few I have a few insights.

00;53;48;18 - 00;53;49;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;53;49;25 - 00;54;14;17
Speaker 1
A lot of what I'm seeing in the young men is a genuine desire to grow up. I could tell a little story when I was when I was at that men's retreat with Ryan McClure in Maine last October, I talked with a businessman who had just hired a 25 year old man right out of college, well skilled, well qualified for the job.

00;54;15;07 - 00;54;35;04
Speaker 1
And I'm sure it's similar in Europe. When you're hired for a job, you get, you know, a sheet of paper with all the stuff you have to fill out so the government can taxes out of your salary. And, you know, at least in America where we buy health insurance, here is the health insurance form. So you fill this out and here is the personal information form for the human resources department.

00;54;35;04 - 00;54;53;09
Speaker 1
And here's the paperwork for this. Here's the paperwork for that. And he gave him the stack of the usual stuff that all of us, you know, deal with every time we get a job. And the young man came back the next day and he had filled in his name on the forms and that was all. And he said, I don't know what to do with all of this.

00;54;53;22 - 00;55;20;17
Speaker 1
And this is the line I just started adulting a year ago. Now, adult is not a verb in English or it didn't used to be a verb in English, but apparently it is now become a verb because I knew immediately what he was saying. And there's an aspect of growing into maturity that I'm sure it's not just young men, it's young women as well.

00;55;20;17 - 00;55;48;20
Speaker 1
Everyone is having trouble with. There is an overextended adolescence and a long period of time of irresponsibility or lessened responsibility that is not serving anybody well. And I think the way forward is to help everybody grow up. And by growing up, I mean learning to shoulder responsibility for their lives, to quit blaming, quit the victim, put just, you know, just start being victims all over it.

00;55;48;20 - 00;56;12;19
Speaker 1
Just just cut that out completely and assume responsibility for our own lives so that we can then excuse me, as I said before, we can then live lives that are in service to and add value to everyone who's around us, lives that have purpose and meaning because they're given to something larger than our own self-gratification and our own self-aggrandizement.

00;56;13;08 - 00;56;44;09
Speaker 1
And that's where real meaning and purpose and deep satisfaction comes from. So I think the more that we can help people become autonomous, responsible, mature and other focused, hmm, I think society, I think, will probably take care of itself. It's too big for me to, you know, to say much about. But in every case where I have helped young men to become more autonomous, more self-directed, shoulder, more responsibility, they flourished and they've been happy.

00;56;44;23 - 00;57;14;01
Speaker 1
And, you know, they've they've gone on to settle down. And then, oddly enough, they actually find a wife, you know, after they've been looking for your soul, you know, when they finally grow up and become adults. Wow. A woman actually wants to take a second look at them. Who knew? Still. And so things begin to happen and they tend to settle down and start families and go to church on Sunday and, you know, contribute to the world and add to their jobs and become their content.

00;57;14;25 - 00;57;33;17
Speaker 1
And I think kind of that's the way forward. So anything we can do in men's work to help men sort of do that, especially to shoulder more responsibility. And, you know, if you if you see that there's something that needs doing and you don't have the skills you need to shoulder as much responsibility as you can, get training for the rest.

00;57;34;19 - 00;57;57;28
Speaker 1
And I actually I think that comes right out of one of my worst books. That might be it. That might be in the volume on the King Island, The Magician or the King, you know, the individual that's in the back of that shoulder. As much response to that as you can get training for the rest. Right. And so I think that's kind of where my calling is.

00;57;57;28 - 00;58;16;29
Speaker 1
That's where my own of beginning coaching work, I think, is is going to is going to head is helping younger men to grow up to grow in their own personal autonomy, to take their attention off themselves and show them that greater satisfaction and meaning and purpose is found when you serve something bigger than yourself.

00;58;17;28 - 00;58;39;22
Speaker 2
This this feels like the father, you know, speaking. This is like a this is a father energy. And I'm not speaking only about you in a religious sense, but the dad you know, the dad has abdicated some of his responsibility. I'm making as you know, I'm I'm about to become dad a father for the first time my life.

00;58;40;10 - 00;59;14;19
Speaker 2
And I think it's it's one of those things that I've heard. This is also something that I believe Robert Bly mentioned back in the days that that Father father is it's not just like have a role in the family system. It's also like a substance like soul and that we don't have enough of it in our culture. And so the boys particularly, but also the girls in this it in this the sense that there is something that is bigger myself that I'm being called for into.

00;59;15;13 - 00;59;33;04
Speaker 2
Yes. And if nobody holds that bar for me, I'm going to be obsessively focused on my own gratification and thus just fail to become a valuable contribution to society.

00;59;34;05 - 00;59;52;25
Speaker 1
I think you're right. I like the way you say that. And I think you're I think you're absolutely right in it. And I don't know if I'm I'm hesitant to point fingers. I get a lot of personal messages on my social media from young men who appreciate the things that I say. And so many of.

00;59;52;28 - 00;59;58;05
Speaker 2
Your telegram profile where you've started to really rocket lately or I mean, I'm in Instagram.

00;59;58;21 - 01;00;04;27
Speaker 1
Insta Instagram. Yes, I'm doing pretty well on Instagram and God help me Tik tok. I was Are.

01;00;04;27 - 01;00;07;19
Speaker 2
You?

01;00;07;19 - 01;00;11;18
Speaker 1
Yes, I'm sorry to say I was told that myself.

01;00;12;16 - 01;00;13;10
Speaker 2
Like, yeah.

01;00;13;20 - 01;00;23;11
Speaker 1
It's the same stuff. It's the same stuff on Instagram and TikTok. Yeah, I post the same thing. But Tik Tok allows for organic growth soil 28,000 followers on TikTok.

01;00;23;11 - 01;00;27;05
Speaker 2
And no way. Right. So a lot more ticktock, right?

01;00;27;13 - 01;00;30;23
Speaker 1
Huge, huge following in Africa of all places.

01;00;31;00 - 01;00;31;15
Speaker 2
Wow.

01;00;31;15 - 01;00;51;26
Speaker 1
But yeah, but men are finding it are finding it helpful. It's hard to get organic growth on Instagram, but I'm building slowly. That's mainly for my audiences, but they are migrating to Tik Tok. So my business coach told me, Get into Tik Tok now through my ground floor so that when your clientele moves over there, you are already established, right?

01;00;51;27 - 01;01;10;14
Speaker 1
They will find you. So that's the only reason I'm there personally, I think Tik Tok, you're Sodom and Gomorrah and I have a hard time being in there. But anyway, but I get personal messages from from all these men all over the world. They said I didn't have a dad. My dad, you know, I was raised by a single mother.

01;01;10;14 - 01;01;25;01
Speaker 1
Our dad was absent or he was gone to work all the time. I never I never had a father, but I never knew him. And there is that. You're right. There is a real absence. And Robert Blake talked about the father wound. Yeah, 30, 40 years ago.

01;01;25;01 - 01;01;28;01
Speaker 2
It's not like it's. It's not like it's a new thing.

01;01;28;20 - 01;01;48;15
Speaker 1
There is nothing new under the sun. No, absolutely not. You know, Bly, in 1990, when he wrote Iron John, you look at the very first pages, the introduction page, like four and five, it says, you know, I go to these gatherings. He was doing these things in the seventies, these immense gatherings. He says, I see around me a lot of what I would call soft males.

01;01;49;10 - 01;02;00;21
Speaker 1
You know, they're they're not interested in hurting the planet. You know, they're all nice and they're, you know, sensitive to the feelings of their partners and all, but they don't have any energy. And then there's.

01;02;00;21 - 01;02;02;25
Speaker 2
Like, funk, the passion, the fire. Yeah.

01;02;02;25 - 01;02;24;18
Speaker 1
There's nothing there that. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, 30 years later, we call them soy boys or greater males or, you know, we have a bunch of new names for that. It's exactly the same thing. Nothing has changed. How is it? Nothing has changed in 30 years. No, it's it's like like I said, it can be very frustrating.

01;02;24;18 - 01;02;40;08
Speaker 1
You know, you want the world to be better somehow. But yeah, I think it just says that the work continues and we have to slog through it. And God willing, you know, like yourself, the younger generation of men are willing to step up and to say, Hey, there is a way out. We don't have to be like this.

01;02;40;21 - 01;02;56;00
Speaker 1
Yes, we can make the world a better place. And to hold out some hope, you know, and point the way forward. Even if we're not there ourselves, we can say, I may not have all the answers and I'm not there, but it's a So let's go together and let's call that a win, see if we can find it.

01;02;57;15 - 01;03;08;01
Speaker 2
Great. I have two more questions for you before we wrap up. First thing I want to know, what do you love about being a man?

01;03;08;01 - 01;03;57;05
Speaker 1
What do I love about being a man? I how do I put this delicately? I love the fact that I have a drive and an energy to penetrate the world that that there is an assertiveness that I found that's not aggression and not passivity. But certainly in later years, I found how to be appropriately assertive, to have impact in ways that I didn't previously, that there is there is a masculine way of of of loving other people.

01;03;57;05 - 01;04;32;21
Speaker 1
Certainly my sons, I have a fantastic relationship with my two boys and I'm I just love them to pieces. And every time we're together is fantastic. All the fact that I can be their dad and that they come to me and are open with me about things that I was never comfortable talking to my stepfather about, that I can be a resource to them, that I can be not only a physical father to my boys, a husband, a husband to my wife, that I can be a spiritual father to a large congregation.

01;04;32;29 - 01;05;00;06
Speaker 1
And now through social media, to a lot of other young men, and provide a kind of guidance and an encouragement of is deeply gratifying to me. So I think those are the ways that I really enjoy being a man. I know women have a different mode of being in a different way of doing that, but I really, really, especially in the last few years, have grown into an appreciation for the masculine mode of doing this kind of work.

01;05;00;06 - 01;05;21;26
Speaker 1
Sweet Yeah, Yeah. Nothing gives me as much excitement or joy. I could have conversations like this all day long and never grow tired of it. I think some of the some of the coverage I get a little lively. I apologize if I'm. But the move is nothing. Nothing moves me in the same way as doing this kind of work.

01;05;23;10 - 01;05;40;22
Speaker 2
And I'm going to now give you a room full of men and you get to give them one piece of advice, one piece of instruction that they will have 100% perfect implementation of. What would you tell them to do in order to improve their lives?

01;05;42;07 - 01;06;21;02
Speaker 1
Stop waiting. Go for it. Yeah. I don't believe entirely the message. Just follow your dreams. But somewhere in your life you have to make a place for them. Maybe you need to keep a day job to put food on the table, but somewhere you have got to include following your dreams. One of the things I have not mentioned, one of the deep reasons why I am doing this work is because I live with a deep sense of regret for decades that I wasted because I was afraid to act and I didn't have good guidance on how to act.

01;06;21;02 - 01;06;44;09
Speaker 1
When I finally figured out I need to go in a direction I could not find guidance or direction or help. And so I wasted a huge amount of time and I come to my gray hair and I find that I have a huge amount of regret. Go and try do it. You might fail. Failure is bitter, but regret is ten times worse.

01;06;44;09 - 01;07;03;13
Speaker 1
And if I could spare younger men the kind of regret that I live with because I was afraid to act when I was younger, if you know, it would be of immense if mean a lot to me. If I could help that I would. I would be deeply gratified to know that someone went out and says, you know, I want to start that side hustle.

01;07;03;13 - 01;07;20;18
Speaker 1
Yeah, I really want to be a musician. Okay, yeah, maybe I have to wait tables or go to college. But, you know, in my spare time, I'm still going to practice my guitar. You know, or whatever, whatever it may happen to be. But you need to find a time in your life because most men, most men, they take their childish dreams.

01;07;20;23 - 01;07;36;22
Speaker 1
They put them on the shelf in the closet when they have to grow up and go to school or get a job or whatnot. And then it comes back to haunt us at midlife. And even then, men don't deal with them well. And you live lives. I always wanted to do that. Why didn't I travel when I had the chance?

01;07;38;05 - 01;07;57;08
Speaker 1
I always wanted to write poetry and, you know, I never did. And I love poetry to this day, but it never had a place in my life. And it may sound small to someone else, unless poetry is a great passion of yours. You know, I. I saw for myself. You mentioned we haven't talked at all about bodybuilding. Maybe.

01;07;57;08 - 01;08;14;18
Speaker 1
And with that, you know, in America, we have this this comic books, this dates me. And in the back of the comic books there was these ads. And for Charles Atlas, he had this little incipient bodybuilding program back then. But I saw him in the back of the comic book and I said, I want to look like that.

01;08;15;26 - 01;08;32;02
Speaker 1
And with muscles. And, you know, maybe it goes back to my father's death that maybe I wanted to be strong so I would have died young like my father. And, you know, I don't know. There's probably deep reasons for it, but I always wanted want to look like that. And I was intimidated by it and I was scared to do it.

01;08;32;14 - 01;08;49;06
Speaker 1
And I wanted to get in shape when I was 20, 30, 40 and 50. And I finally said to my wife when I was 53, I said, I regret not doing this my whole life. I want to regret something else when I'm 60 years old, but I don't want to regret this. And that's when I got serious in the gym.

01;08;49;06 - 01;09;19;13
Speaker 1
I was 53 years old and it was one of the best things ever did for myself. And that's when I realized that really, you know, your dreams are important and you need find a place. I did not quit my day job to be a bodybuilder now, but I get to the gym every single day, and once or twice a year I still to a we will enter a competition like I will twice this year and see if even I at my advanced age can win a pro card in.

01;09;19;13 - 01;09;28;13
Speaker 1
The the we call it grandmasters, but it's really things that are in category. You know, I get to stand on stage with other old men and we'll strut our stuff and it's an.

01;09;28;13 - 01;09;43;01
Speaker 2
Inspiring story end on my call to to decide at the at the age of 53 that I'm going to be a bodybuilder and then carrying through on that and actually winning competitions.

01;09;43;16 - 01;09;47;16
Speaker 1
Yeah, actually, I have I've won five out of the 11 contests I've been in.

01;09;47;16 - 01;09;56;28
Speaker 2
I mean, it's I've done okay. Yeah, That's an inspiring story to end on. Thank you for that. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

01;09;58;15 - 01;10;23;20
Speaker 1
As you said, mostly right now on Instagram, all the handle I use is average to alpha. That's a G numeral to L, average to alpha. It's the same material on Instagram and TikTok. I have a YouTube channel with the same with the same handle, YouTube should be increasing in in lots more posting I hope in the next couple of months.

01;10;23;20 - 01;10;48;07
Speaker 1
That's the place where I'm going to put more long form content where I lay out my work on the four virtues, on the problems that young men are facing on ways forward, how to improve your life, just everything that should be some really good content that'll be coming out there soon. And I am just now starting my website, so which will also be a big numeral two alpha average to alpha dot com.

01;10;48;19 - 01;10;52;17
Speaker 1
I'll have a landing page and some stuff up. I hope that'll be up in the next few weeks.

01;10;52;27 - 01;10;53;06
Speaker 2
Right.

01;10;53;25 - 01;10;57;19
Speaker 1
So yeah, just look up that one handle and you will, you'll find me.

01;10;57;29 - 01;11;12;29
Speaker 2
So if you want to, if you want to check out our website, those of you men who are watching, you may need to wait a week or two after this podcast has been published, but I'll be there soon enough by the sounds of the WWE will communicate this on Instagram. So.

01;11;13;11 - 01;11;20;10
Speaker 1
Oh yeah. And now I have even more incentive to finish the thing written and put up. So I appreciate that.

01;11;20;26 - 01;11;29;28
Speaker 2
For the Michael Butler, it's been a great pleasure to have you as a guest on the way. Showers I. Look forward to seeing you again in the next episode.

01;11;29;28 - 01;11;30;12
Speaker 1
We can.

01;11;31;01 - 01;11;31;17
Speaker 2
Thank you for.

01;11;31;26 - 01;11;42;20
Speaker 1
It. So it's always a joy. I've always appreciated the work that that you've done. I was pleased to have met you, what was it, three years ago with the European men's gathering? I guess it was, and I think.

01;11;42;20 - 01;11;43;15
Speaker 2
It must have in.

01;11;43;16 - 01;11;52;15
Speaker 1
Recent years, August year before or less. So two and a half years, something like that. You do a good work, man. Keep it up. The world.

01;11;52;15 - 01;11;52;24
Speaker 2
Needs.

01;11;53;03 - 01;11;55;27
Speaker 1
Women. Men need more voices like what you're doing.

01;11;56;00 - 01;12;17;15
Speaker 2
And think you know the men who those of you have been watching to to hear the blessings and the compassion and the love, but also the challenge of the man who does bring the kind of father energy that you bring, I think is just so, so helpful and quite rare, actually, in the culture that we have now. So don't have to reach out to him.

01;12;17;22 - 01;12;21;18
Speaker 2
If some of this has inspired you, did you want to say one more thing before we wrap up?

01;12;22;13 - 01;12;45;11
Speaker 1
No, I think we're good. Yeah. Yeah. Especially On Instagram, that's the place to get a direct message to me. I do check those and I do respond as best I'm able. So yeah, I'm happy to be of service if I can, in whatever way I can. So there it is. And, you know, it's it's maybe a unorthodox foible, but, you know, we're always asking forgiveness for anything.

01;12;45;11 - 01;12;54;27
Speaker 1
But, you know, I hope I've said things that are beneficial and forgive me if I've caused any offense. I didn't set out intentionally to cause anybody offense, so forgive me if I did.

01;12;55;11 - 01;12;58;21
Speaker 2
Great. Thanks for joining us today. I'll see you now.

01;12;58;21 - 01;13;03;06
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

01;13;03;06 - 01;13;37;16
Speaker 2
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Father Michael Butler as much as I did. If you are interested in checking out more of his work and do not hesitate to use one of the links to either TikTok or Instagram. You can see them on the screen right now. Michael's platforms are inspired he posts pretty much every day and he brings out a cohesive message on men and masculinity, bringing, of course, from his cardinal masculine virtues from way back as explored in this conversation and many other diverse topics.

01;13;37;24 - 01;14;00;09
Speaker 2
So do check those out. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't hesitate to share with your friends to let them also have the benefit of Father Michael's perspectives. Also, if you are watching on YouTube, I obviously welcome a like support the YouTube algorithm. And also if you want more content like this in the future and subscribe to the channel.

01;14;00;12 - 01;14;20;25
Speaker 2
This has been an interesting men's coach and Reclaim the Throne founder. I hope you have a great day and you will join us in the next Weigh Show Podcast Episode coming soon.