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A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
This is Lab Medicine
Rounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratory
professionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
the Bow Tie Bandit of Blood,
a transfusion medicine
pathologist at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding with Dr.
Matt Binnicker, the Director
of Clinical Virology
and Vice-Chair of
Practice in the Department
of Laboratory Medicine and
Pathology at Mayo Clinic to talk
about working and leading
through uncertainty.
Thanks for joining us today
Dr. Binnicker.
Dr. Kreuter, it's always good to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
It's great to have you back
and to, you know, focus
on many of your other additional
talents beyond just covid.
You, you are certainly, you
know, a wise sage when it comes
to microbiology, but also
also with leadership.
Yeah. Held a number
had the chance to hold a
number of leadership positions
in the Department of
Lab Medicine and Pathology.
I've learned it's a
fantastic way to really
understand the organization,
meet a lot of people
create networks, and it's all
about knowing who to reach
out to and the team members to pull
around the table to get
major initiatives done.
So I've been happy
and honored to serve in
those leadership positions.
So maybe we can kind of share some
of this wisdom with our listeners today.
Maybe start off with, you
know, this, why, why is working
with uncertainty an important
skill for us to cultivate?
Yeah, uncertainty and ambiguity is part
of the fabric of being a leader.
And that's
because the higher up you
move into leadership positions
the more ambiguity and the more
uncertainty becomes common.
When an issue reaches
a high leadership team
it's usually because
there's no clearcut answer.
If there was a clearcut answer
the hope would be that
it would've been resolved
by frontline teams and team members.
But when there's significant challenges
when there's uncertainty,
that's when issues rightfully so
get escalated for discussion
and resolution by leaders
or leadership teams.
And so again, it's
really just a normal part
of being a leader or being part
of a leadership team is dealing
with situations where
there's no clearcut answer.
So it's a really important
skill to develop regardless
of whether where you're
at in your career path
but certainly if you are
interested or are already
in leadership positions to
be able to be comfortable
with working through uncertainty.
You know, so I hear you talking and
and so for our students
young and career professionals
to hear, you know
this is something to be deliberate about
trying to understand when you look
to your mentors who are
dealing with uncertainty
how are they navigating that?
And for a more senior leadership to think
about as you're mentoring
people, to be explicit
about helping them understand
how you are dealing
with that uncertainty.
You know, one of the things
I imagine, or that I struggle
with sometimes when
talking about uncertainty
with my trainees, my learners,
is kind of how do you
how do you navigate it
while being grounded, right?
Because when there's uncertainty,
there might be a changing
of minds as new information
comes available.
And I could imagine there
is that challenge to
understand when do you shift
gears, when do you pivot?
And then obviously communicating
that to the team so that
you know, they understand
you are, you are a thoughtful
deliberate leader versus
somebody who, I mean, you know
not to invoke politics, but people talk
about flip flopping in
a negative connotation.
I'm kind of curious how
how do you navigate
and thread that needle?
Yeah, it's one of the
biggest challenges that being
in leadership positions is
being able to stay grounded
or have a direction
yet be willing and open
to course adjustments as new
information becomes available.
I think the key here is to
always have a true north
what is the value or values that you
as a leader or as an
organization hold true to?
And what do you use
as your true north to always
come back to regard regardless
of what situation and uncertainty are
in the midst of, for
example, here at Mayo Clinic
our primary value is the needs
of the patient come first.
So as we are dealing with
issues where there's not enough
or ample information
or data to make a real
clear cut decision
we'll commonly come back
to that true north statement
of is the decision we're making
in the best interest of our patients to
help them receive the best
diagnosis in management.
As that really helps
you to guide you through
or your teams through periods
of uncertainty and ambiguity
is to always go back
to that true north or that
guiding principle or value.
But it is very true that leaders
oftentimes are criticized
for changing their mind
or changing their opinion
on a situation as new
information becomes available.
And I just think it's so
important to get the message
out that a leader who is
open to course adjustments
that's not a sign of weakness.
It's a sign of being willing to take
in new information to change
your potential direction
or strategy dependent on that information.
But as long
as that direction continues
to align with your true north.
I'm really curious
to explore a little bit
your con- this concept of,
you know, the true north.
Because I think a lot of
times we think about, you know
leaders rising to a particular occasion.
And I imagine that for you
this isn't something that
only during those really
stressful days that you are
doing something to kind of, I
I'm not sure I, I don't wanna put words
in your mouth to live or
communicate this true north.
So I'm kind of curious,
maybe my question is
when you're not in a crisis moment
when it's not necessarily
an ambiguous time
how do you kind of prepare
or how do you behave
in a way that kind of
further cultivates this idea
that everybody understands
you're a leader that's got a
a true north, how, how
does your off season look?
Yeah
Yeah. I mean, the goal
is to not be operating
in chaos mode or response
to tragedy or again, chaos.
That hopefully at least
half the time you're
you're operating in some sort
of a, a rhythm or run state.
Now, during those times where
there's not chaos involved
I found it to be effective
to use those periods
of relative calm to overemphasize
and overcommunicate the strategy
direction and gain clarity
within the team of where
you're headed and why.
So as long as your teams
have a strong appreciation
of where you are leading
them and where the future
what the future will look like
then we're able to navigate those periods
of uncertainty or chaos
a lot more effectively
because they still will be
able to go back and remember
this is ultimately where we're headed.
We're gonna weather this particular storm.
The landscape may change after the storm
but ultimately we know
we're gonna get back
to that true north and
that future direction that we've talked
about and over-communicated
and overemphasized
during the periods of calm.
I'm curious in your answer there
you're talking about the,
you know, the importance
of kind of normally operating
with a, a rhythm and a run.
And I know you got a lot
of rhythm, you're a runner.
Yeah. And I'm curious
about how we could help our
colleagues who are struggling
with uncertainty during these times.
You know, as a leader,
sometimes maybe junior leaders
or you know, early career
professionals might be struggling
with that uncertainty and, you know
may feel very out of a, a rhythm.
So how, how can we help those
colleagues who are struggling?
Yeah, I've learned that it
is a skillset that's learned
over time and with experience.
It's just not something
that many people are born
with in terms of being able
to be dropped into uncertainty,
ambiguity and be comfortable with that.
I think we're wired to
be uncomfortable when
things aren't clear.
And so what do we need to do as leaders to
help prepare the future
generation to deal with that?
We need to give them exposure
and experience in dealing
with difficult decisions.
So it all goes back to
leaders being willing to
grow the next generation of leaders.
And you look for good talent, you put them
in opportunities that
will test their skillset
and allow them to develop
you even allow them
sometimes to fail and talk
through what that failure to look
like and how we could do things
differently in the future.
Failure is an opportunity to learn and if
if people aren't given opportunities to be
in those situations and
learn from experiences
they're not gonna be battle tested
and be able to respond during periods
of uncertainty and ambiguity
when it really matters.
So again, it's all
about growing leaders,
giving them opportunities
supporting them through
success and failure.
That's really the key.
A as you talk about that, I,
I really see your point there
on that kind of debrief,
talking with them particularly
about when there has been a failure
and something I've come across
is people that kind of have
I guess what we talk about more
of that fixed mindset as
opposed to a growth mindset.
And so they take that conversation in
in a very hyper critical negative way.
That person may have a lot of talents
and how can we help them to kind of move
from that kind of, wow, I, I really don't
this getting a negative feedback
is really uncomfortable.
How, how can we kind of help them see the
the growth and opportunity
in front of them?
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned, you know
the fix versus growth mindset.
And I think as leaders
it's really essential to
help develop a culture of growth mindset.
In other words, we view challenges
we view failure as opportunities to grow
and become better rather than
grow challenges and failures.
Meaning that you are a failure
and so many people have that
mindset, if I don't succeed
in this particular situation,
I can't become better.
And that's one of the key attributes
of a good leader is to
help your team members work
through that and be able to see
that you can work through
challenge and failure and come
out on the other side
to be a better leader
or a better team member.
And it goes back to giving
people opportunities
putting in them in
situations where you hope
that they will thrive and
succeed, but they may fail.
And being there to support
them and talking them
through that, helping them to
see what the future might hold
if things are done a
little bit differently
and always encouraging them
along their path of leadership.
You know, I'd like to kind of
close, I I think stories are
are powerful kind of teacher,
I, I'm kind of curious
if you would share with our
listeners kind of a story
of how uncertainty has has
really surprised you most?
Yeah, you know, when I
think about this question
I have a number of stories
come to mind immediately.
And the, the story I'd like to tell is
is during the Covid 19 pandemic
in which Mayo Clinic stood
up what we called our
diagnostic stewardship group
which comprised of laboratory
leaders, infectious diseases
occupational health, primary
care, and really the task
of that team was to develop
the testing strategies
and the safety strategies
for our patients and our employees.
And they, the difficult thing
about that group was we were truly dealing
with new information on a daily basis.
There was so much uncertainty
and so much ambiguity involved
that it was a prime example of
leading through uncertainty.
And I think what that
experience taught me is
that if you bring together
a number of different voices
you're much better
prepared to weather a storm
than if you try to make
decisions in isolation.
I had my, I brought some expertise
and I had things that I was
aware of and familiar with
but I also had blind
blinders to other issues.
And so by bringing in
multiple team members
it helped to expand
the layers of expertise
and gave us a much broader
picture of the situation.
Did we get it all perfect?
No, but we were able to
make the best decisions
with the available information at the time
and we were also able to
communicate when things changed
why they changed.
So again, just to reemphasize,
when you are leading
through a period of high
levels of uncertainty
and ambiguity, it's very
important to pull together a team
a diverse team that allows
you see the complete
landscape that's gonna help
you better weather the storm
and be able to make the
best decisions possible.
That's so profound.
A, a word that we haven't
said in this podcast yet
that I'm thinking about is,
you know, really vulnerability.
And one of the things that I'm taking away
from our conversation
today that's really kind
of been a thread to a lot
of your answers and your insights has been
that by leaders making
ourselves vulnerable.
And then in your story there
I see that vulnerability
by inviting several people
under the tent to
form it helps you make the
best decision, really leads
to the best decision as opposed
to, I think there's a lot
of other thoughts when
people want to think
about a strong leader as
kind of the, the monolith.
And, and I really like
how you've kind of really
threaded that through
a lot of your answers
cause I think that's
something that, you know
myself and probably a lot of our
our listeners can really benefit from.
Absolutely. Yeah, it, it definitely helps
as a leader to surround yourself
with an A team that is really critical
to dealing with daily operations
but also handling those
significant challenges.
We've been rounding with Dr.
Binnicker on leading and
working through uncertainty.
Thank you so much
for taking the time to
talk about this with us.
Absolutely. Thanks again
for having me back.
And to all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email.
Please direct any suggestions
to MCLeducation@mayo.edu.
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