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Embark on a journey to success with the Startup Founder Roadmap, your go-to guide for navigating the challenging yet rewarding world of startups. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or just launching your first venture, this podcast is your compass for building, growing, and leading a thriving startup company.
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The Startup Founder Roadmap Podcast is your weekly dose of practical advice, industry insights, and expert guidance. Hosted by Christopher Hines, a podcast specialist with a passion for empowering startup founders, each episode is crafted to equip you with the tools and knowledge needed to not only survive but thrive in the competitive world of startups.
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00:01 - Chris (Host)
What's up people? Welcome back to the show. I have special guest Ben Robertson on the podcast. Ben, welcome to the show. Hey, happy to be here, so I always start off the interviews with my favorite question. Some people don't like it, but I love this question because it gives the audience a reason to stay tuned in. Why should people listen to you?
00:23 - Ben (Guest)
Why should people listen to me? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think there's anything super special about me and I think in some regards that makes it why it might be interesting to listen. Just because I was a guy who always felt scared to quit his job. I always had dreams of, like, wanting to start my own business, but I never felt confident enough to do that and over the last year I left my job. I didn't really have a plan other than I didn't want to have a job and I built something that I thought was fun and it turned into something that's not paying all my bills yet, but it's paying a lot of my bills, turned into something that's not paying all my bills yet, but it's paying a lot of my bills, and I think that's interesting. It's interesting to me, I think it should be interesting for a lot of people, because it just shows there's so much opportunity out there, even in things that don't seem serious. So you don't have to have a $3 billion idea. You just need like a $10,000 idea.
01:29 - Chris (Host)
You know I love that this is where we're starting, because I think that's kind of the perception a lot of founders have, is that I have to have something that's going to be a unicorn or make a hundred million dollars. And I think a lot of people will benefit from making even extra five grand a month to start, like if you started a business and you made an extra five or 10 grand for six to 12 months. I think that would change a lot of people's lives dramatically. So, like we always go to the extreme of success where sometimes that stepping stone of success could be what most people need.
02:00 - Ben (Guest)
And and those. You learn so much on those stepping stones that like you wouldn't be able. You can't just go straight to like the big thing without learning those lessons first. But the big thing is usually like the what's in the news and stuff. So that's what people think where they want to go.
02:18 - Chris (Host)
Right, right, and I think that's what founders get caught up in a lot of like the content on YouTube or on these podcasts or even on Twitter, where you look at a founder that just had an exit for six, seven, eight, nine figures and you're like, oh my God, I have to get to that level. And it's kind of like a different level of FOMO. Like you feel like you're not doing good enough because these people have already done what you want to do. But again, I think the perception of being a founder has to change and be about like let me just improve my situation, my life, first, and then I can go and change the world. Like let me take those steps, like instead of trying to just run the entire marathon in a day.
02:58 - Ben (Guest)
Yeah, yeah for sure. And I think something else I'll add is I used to think of it as like a, as like a top, top down strategy of like okay, how can I do something that's going to make me super rich and that's so much harder to think about? I remember I remember, like 10 years ago, snapchat was like big and my wife and I I think it was I think Snapchat had their valuation or their IPO or something like that, and it was, or maybe it was they had.
03:25
They had rejected the $3 billion buyout.
03:27 - Chris (Host)
Yeah, I remember that that was big. That was a big deal.
03:30 - Ben (Guest)
Yeah, and I thought I remember talking with my wife about that and we were just like in shock. It's like it's just a thing that sends disappearing images. It's not complicated, right. I mean there's scaling stuff for sure. That's complicated, but like the premise is pretty simple, and so we used to talk about like what's our three billion dollar idea? Could we have a three billion dollar idea? I never had a three billion dollar idea ground up, like what's the base level that I need, what's the smallest amount of money that would be meaningful to me, and how can I go about getting that, and that it's a lot easier to take smaller steps to get there rather than taking on a whole empire or something like that.
04:14 - Chris (Host)
That's an interesting perspective, Cause for me I kind of look at it differently. I look at it as I want to be in one industry in one space for decades, Like I want to just be in one market for like 50 years, because then at that point if I want to go and get a job, I can. If I'm going to start a new company, I can. If I'm going to build software, if I write a book, I think you have a lot of leverage when you commit that time and you commit to the market and solving problems in the market. So like if it was e-commerce, for example, how can I build these different plugins for Shopify, Right? How can I improve conversion rates? Can I build my own strategy for that?
04:53
Like that's kind of my perspective on building that massive amount of wealth, because a lot of people that have built those billion dollar companies, they're in the market, they're deep in the trenches of it. I think that part should not be rushed. I'm a big believer in just be consistent and sustained in that industry and don't branch out. You can do other things but be known for that one thing, and I think that's how you build that wealth. Yeah.
05:17
I think it's a good point, sometimes, I think yeah, I mean, I think it's a good point.
05:24 - Ben (Guest)
I like sometimes I think about my career so far. I'm 35. I don't. I think the longest job I've ever had was three years, Maybe, you know, maybe a little bit longer than that. Every there's one way you could look at my career and so far and say that doesn't connect to that and that doesn't connect to that, and the next thing doesn't connect to that and that doesn't connect to that and the next thing doesn't connect to that and the next thing doesn't connect to that.
05:47
There's another way you can look at it as like so you know, for instance, like I started in like newspaper advertising sales and I went to web development and then I went to, you know, working at a dev tool startup and now I'm making coloring pages on the internet.
06:04
So there's so there. So there's, like you know, there's a, there's a path in which none of those dots really connect. But there's another path where I learned. You know I learned some sales techniques. You know newspaper space, I knew I learned some digital marketing techniques there. Then I learned, you know, web development, coding, but I didn't quite understand how to like run a business or a startup. So then I went to the dev tool startup and I learned about experimentation and just trying things and you're not having to ask for permission, and so, from a larger perspective, like all those things are kind of in different spaces but they're all in the same for me that I've kind of been able to put them all together as like picking out different skills that have helped me become able to do a lot of different disciplines, I guess, and are helping me right now running my small business.
06:54 - Chris (Host)
I mean, I agree, I love that path you have. It's so unconventional and I think that's how the beginning is is like doing a bunch of different things, a bunch of different jobs, having a lot of mentors and kind of leadership around you, and that helps you build a lot of different skills. You know, like building those skills, man, I think that is probably the most valuable thing that anybody can do. I don't care how old you are or what you want to do, but like adding skills of the little things, like if it's going to be copywriting or email marketing or sales, like whatever it is, I think you want to stack a good eight to 10 skills because it just makes you so valuable to the marketplace, man, where you'll never be out of a job, even if your business fails, you can go work here. You know, if you get fired from your job, you can start a business Like. You have all kinds of options when you stack the right skills.
07:49
And I think sometimes we get too caught up in like the glitz and glamour and ignore the skill part. You know, I see that a lot on Twitter, where it's so much focus is on exiting and making as much money as possible, we ignore like, hey, let's sit down for the next six months and learn this one thing. Let's just focus on learning this skill right here. I think that would help a lot of founders as well. So you did say something I want to go back to. You say you're making coloring pages online. I know people are laughing at that because that sounds crazy. Can you explain ColorBliss and what it is for the audience?
08:22 - Ben (Guest)
Yeah, ColorBliss is a website I built where you can use AI to make coloring pages. So you can either prompt it with text prompts say you want something like a dinosaur on a skateboard, and it'll generate a coloring page for you or you can take your photos and get a coloring, convert them into coloring pages, and I've added a feature where you can you know, make little scribbles either on your computer or just.
08:47
I'm not a very good drawer so I'm not very good at drawing, so I'll draw a little thing and then I'll kind of have the AI, you know, make it a more detailed coloring page, and so people can buy subscriptions to that.
08:57 - Chris (Host)
I've got subscriptions for you know that are kind of targeting parents, grandparents and then also targeting people who are making coloring pages to sell online as well. I love, I love how unique this is, because I have an eight year old and I said eight, a six year old and she acts like she's eight sometimes. She's really, really into art and I want her to kind of learn art right now and use some of the AI tools with it. I think that would be a game changer, because everybody's kind of afraid of AI. I think 1% of the population knows what it is and isn't super terrified, and I think most people are horrified with population knows what it is and isn't super terrified and, like, I think most people are horrified with AI and what it could be.
09:42
You know, and I think for us to not be as scared of it, we have to kind of lean into it and learn more about it, and I would just like me I'm into AI a little bit myself so I would love for my kids to learn it sooner rather than later, Cause it's not going anywhere obviously. Love for my kids to learn it sooner rather than later, because it's not going anywhere obviously, right, like it's gonna be here, so why not learn earlier? You know what I mean. So, yeah, so I can use this tool to like draw pretty much anything. Is that what you're saying?
10:06 - Ben (Guest)
yeah, um yeah, pretty much, pretty much, pretty much anything. So that's, that's. That was the the. The genesis of it for me was I have a six-year-old son right now. Last year he was.
10:20
He really likes coloring and so he'd want to, he'd want to find a coloring page. And he say you know, dad, I really want this coloring page and it'd be something really specific. It'd be like Spider-Man and a dinosaur, you know, together in some specific location, and I'd say, like I think that's a great idea. I don't think anybody's ever made that coloring page before, or even had that idea for a coloring page before. But he, what I realized about my kids, this next generation, I think they experienced the internet as like, as totally an everything machine, and so they don't have a concept of like. If it's in my brain, it must also be out there somewhere. That's, that's his thinking, like, if I could think of it, it must exist. And so we'd sit down, he'd be typing in dad, I type it, you know, into Google and we just, he just say, keep scrolling, you know, keep scrolling. And I say, you know, like, I know it's like, hey, if it's not on the first page, like, it's not there, it's not, we're not going to find it.
11:12
And and so after, after I quit my job last year, I was looking through my list of things and and I I said you know what, that would be a really fun project to take on. And so he. So he helped me with it at the very beginning, when I started prompting, trying to figure out the prompts and training the AI to figure out how to get a good coloring page output, we'd sit, I, I did some experimentation. Then I sat down with him, said, hey, let's, let's put in some ideas and see what we get, and see what you think. You know, how do these tigers look? How does that look?
11:41 - Chris (Host)
um, and yeah, super fun man, that is so cool to be able to have your own kid help you test the product like that's really unique man. I love that. I've done the same thing with new microphones, where I have them just sit here, talk into it, you know, yeah so this is more of a b2c company right yeah it, I'd say it's more.
12:02 - Ben (Guest)
It's mostly b2c and then there's a little bit of like the beta prosumer um angle on it as well. So people there's there are some people that are trying to make money with selling coloring books or coloring pages online. Yeah, and so I've got a little bit of a higher price point for that market.
12:22 - Chris (Host)
I love that diversity you have in a product. Do you think? It's something where I always try to take this to the most complex level that I can personally think of when I hear these kind of products? So If I wanted to make designs for my website, right, so you know the graphics, you see when you go to some of these websites, like they have five or different. You know five or six different versions and different colors, but it's like a theme around it. Is that something that I could use ColorBliss to make?
12:52 - Ben (Guest)
You could probably use ColorBliss to do that. I think there's probably other tools that would suit you better for that. Like, ours are very targeted towards coloring page output and coloring page sizing and formatting and that kind of thing. Um but um. But you could try. I mean, if you wanted to have a coloring page yeah, coloring page art on your site, you could, you could definitely do it yeah, I just I love trying out stuff like that man.
13:19 - Chris (Host)
I always try to think, because I know my audience is full of founders, so I'm always thinking how could this help the founders out there? So, since you've been building Color Bliss, you did mention in the beginning that it's been bringing in some revenue. Things are pretty consistent. So what's the long-term goal? What's the big impact you want to have with this?
13:37 - Ben (Guest)
company. I think it goes back to what I was saying before, where I've flipped my script for how I think about money a little bit, at least at this stage in my life. I used to try to think of how do I get this big chunk of money? What that led me to before was okay, I'll aggressively save. I want to make sure all my extra cash is going into investments and that kind of stuff to get me to that number.
14:09
And how I've flipped things this year is trying to say like what's the least amount we can live on right now and what's the easiest way for me? Or what's the maybe not easiest way but what's the most satisfying for me? Or what's the maybe not easiest way but what's the like most satisfying way that I could get that amount of money just just right now. And so that's color bliss is an experiment in that for me, to see can I do something that's really fun, that I don't have to work that hard at, that can still cover that amount of the, you know, cover our living expenses. Basically, like what's our, what's our base amount of living expenses, what's the least amount we can live on and can I make something that will just cover that and I would say that's kind of my first, my first step that I have tried to take on in this year.
14:57 - Chris (Host)
That is such a unique perspective because every person I talk to that's you know, I will say this under 50, maybe their focus is on making more, doing more, and you're kind of like I want to sustain this, to see what this would be like. I love that kind of mindset you have because it seems like it's probably super relaxing to just be like all right, well, I made this much, I'm gonna just sit back and just relax now, like I kind of like that.
15:24 - Ben (Guest)
the thought of that sounds fun yeah, I, I, I mean I have, I have three kids, so my oldest is six.
15:32
So our life, I mean the day-to-day life, is pretty stressful with three kids, you know, no matter what you got going on elsewhere and when I was working full-time it was really stressful. I do a lot of meetings and stuff, and most of the time I spent with the kids was like either at bedtime or right before they're going to school or something you know, just transition times, and that time is super stressful to be around the kids. It's stressful for them, stressful for me, and so I felt like I didn't get the quality time with my children that I wanted, with my family, that I wanted, and I was making a lot of money, but it just wasn't worth it. I just realized, you know, I just kind of realized it wasn't. It's like what's the point of having, of making this money and stocking it away for later when these are like these are? This is the this time that I have right now, at this stage of my life and the stage of my life my kids are at, like, this is the most limited resource I have and trying.
16:31 - Chris (Host)
That is, it's something that I hear. Like you know, the talking heads, the gurus and stuff, they talk about it, but I rarely meet people that are actually living it, where it's like, yeah, this is how I set my life up so I can spend more time with my kids. Like I hear it all the time. It's kind of annoying, to be honest, because I know that it's not. I know for most of it's not true. Like I know that if I offered you, if we had a meeting right now, and I was going to buy something from you, whatever your product is, or I wanted to become a client, you would take that meeting. You wouldn't say, no, I have to spend time with my kids, you know.
17:04
So it is interesting to meet somebody that's actually living that life because, again, that's I just think it's something that's so it's kind of become glorified, I would say in the past two or three years, but I've still. I rarely see it executed. Like people look at me crazy when I say that, cause I do have three-year-old as well, and so, like, from every day, from pretty much four to seven, is their time, whatever we're doing, whatever it is, I give them that time. I'm not trying to work like every single day and again, being a founder that does that. I know a lot of founders don't prioritize family in that way, but I actually think that we should because, like you said, man, we cannot get this time back and we can build all the products and stuff later.
17:48 - Ben (Guest)
Yeah, I think it's. I think what people talk about like a scarcity mindset and that kind of thing. I think sometimes that language is not helpful, but I do think and it's complicated to just say yeah, just like abandon the scarcity mindset. You know scarcity, don't have that. You know it's like well, but like time is limited, money is limited. You know it feels it feels that way, but I do think we're living in a time when there's so many ideas and there's so many opportunities. I really do think there's more opportunities than any of us can really imagine that there are.
18:26
Yeah, and we are kind of beholden to this. We've all absorbed this way of working and being in the world that is totally engulfed by work, way of working and being in the world that is totally engulfed by work, like we don't. We can't imagine, like most people I talk to, like they can't imagine not working 40 hours a week. You know what do you do with your time? Why, why? Why would you do that less? You know, why would you want to spend that time with your kids?
18:50
You know people say, and it's not like every day for me is like, oh, we're just like so happy. You know, like I mean. I mean it's, it's stressful, it's kids. You know like there's big feelings every day. I have big feelings, you know it's not like we're this like peaceful, adventure, family that's having fun all the time, where we're just living a regular life but spending a lot of time together and developing those relationships and and I want to pass on to my kids the idea that life is not all about work and that's not, that's not the only thing and it and maybe it doesn't even have to be the primary thing, like making money might not have to be the main thing that you do yeah, and I think ai is going to be a part of that transition for humans to where every person doesn't have to work as hard like I think in the beginning it'll be terrifying.
19:41 - Chris (Host)
It's going to be difficult because it's a big transition. You know, for the first 20 years it's like, oh my God, it's coming to take our jobs. But, like you said, the next generation, I think a lot of their life is going to be dramatically easier because of automation and different ways it'll be used. Like, right now we're only thinking of it from a business sense. How can I make money from this? When we transition to? How can I make everyday life easier? Like it's going to be a game changer when, like, we can use AI to somehow help us wash dishes or to wash clothes. Like that's going to change the world.
20:16
Like again, it sounds terrifying because we only have the negative concepts from movies right now. We don't have a positive perspective on it just yet. But I do think that's where we're going to get to, because the reality is 95 percent of the world is living in that space of I have to work and I have to work, I have to work nonstop. So I think the focus eventually is going to shift to making life easier for everybody, to where, like, working isn't the only thing that we're thinking about. That's on our minds all the time. Like that change is definitely happening.
20:48 - Ben (Guest)
Yeah, I hope that's the case, change is definitely happening. I hope that's the case. I do think that is a possibility. I also think that some people would stand to benefit a lot from just increased output and keeping that same 40-hour work week We've had it since the 1920s or whatever, and it hasn't changed.
21:10
We're all doing way more work now than we were doing 50 years ago, but we're even working more hours in some cases for people. So I think it is possible that all that would change, but it requires people to make a change for themselves and create companies where that, make a change for themselves, and and and create companies where that, where that's a reality for people.
21:36 - Chris (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I do think it'll have to be overall and I don't think it'll be every single person that directly benefits immediately, but I do think those people like yourself that, like, make it a priority to put other things ahead of work, that's who's going to see the major benefit of like.
21:52
Okay, I can take a step back and do this thing, this different way. Like, for me, I used to spend hours and hours on production and editing and stuff and it just was so draining. Like, watching every second of a video takes so much energy out of you, whereas now, like, I can confidently say okay, I have to produce this episode and all this content later, where it used to take me literally five hours, now it's going to take me maybe hour and a half, so I can now take the rest of that time to be with my family. Yeah, so I think more and more people are going to find those ways to use the resources to make their life easier. But I do I always believe, like I have family members like this Some people just need to go to a job and have a boss work their 40 hours because they're not built for the discipline side of like, all of like, just everything that comes with entrepreneurship.
22:47
It's a real mindset thing man.
22:49 - Ben (Guest)
You got to be disciplined yeah.
22:52 - Chris (Host)
Yeah, exactly yeah, some people need that direction. They just need that guidance, and there's nothing wrong with it. So, man, this is a really interesting conversation outside of business, to kind of give founders a different perspective on life. I love content like this, though, because it's just variations for the show. I love that where it's not just here's how you can market your product. Like that stuff gets boring, to be honest, like it's kind of redundant man. So should people follow?
23:19 - Ben (Guest)
you on Twitter? Where's people connect with you? Yeah, I'm on Twitter. I'm Ben Robertson IO on Twitter. That's. That's probably where I'm most active right now. Um, yeah, I, I had plans to have a newsletter when I last, and I think I sent out three things since September. So Twitter is the best way. It's the easiest way for me to get stuff out.
23:38 - Chris (Host)
Okay, okay, yeah, all right, man Sounds good. I want to thank you for being on the show and sharing your personal life a bit more than most of the guests. I love that because that makes the content a lot better.
23:50 - Ben (Guest)
Awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me, chris.