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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
Ryan Mullens (00:00)
Welcome to Story Behind the Stone where we talk service, sacrifice and stories connecting you to the past and the most interesting people in the field of veteran causes and commemorations. My name is Ryan Mullins along with Matthew Cudmore. We're with Memory Anchor, a company committed to using technology for good as we change the way the world remembers.
We are joined today with Bill Butler, the Acting President of the National Veterans Memorial and Museum located in Columbus. Bill, welcome. Thank you for being with us.
Bill Butler (00:28)
Thanks, Ryan and Matthew. Appreciate the opportunity to our story.
Matthew Cudmore (00:31)
It's great to chat with you today, Bill. Just to give some context for our listeners, we'd love to hear just a little bit about you, your story, and your service, if you could share.
Bill Butler (00:40)
normally like to say, you know, both my grandfather served in World War II. My dad did two tours in Vietnam. Father-in-law did two tours in Vietnam. I served in the Army on active duty for 27 years. Saw service all over the world. Me and my family lived in Europe for 10 years, Italy for nine of those years, and then also three combat deployments, one to Iraq, two to Afghanistan, both for about a year long.
each 33 total months away from my family serving with some amazing Americans and 173rd Airborne Brigade on all three of those deployments. And then I retired in 2017 and then 2019 took the job here at the National Veterans Memorial and Museum as a way to still feel like I'm serving in some capacity just by virtue of the mission that we have here.
Matthew Cudmore (01:31)
does your service inform your day to day there as the acting president at the Memorial Museum?
Bill Butler (01:37)
Well, know, our mission at the museum is to honor all veterans, all areas of service, all branches of service, elevate their stories and amplify the power of service for everyone, everywhere. So we want people to come into the museum and hear the stories of men and women who served our country in the military and then walk out inspired to do something, not necessarily join the military, but get involved in their community, make their church, their neighborhood.
their classroom better just by getting involved and doing something, know, volunteering, becoming part of something bigger than oneself.
Ryan Mullens (02:13)
Bill, I, you know, I love that. And just hearing the history in your family, it's understandable why you served, ⁓ and, a long career, ⁓ 27 years, ⁓ and deployments. And, ⁓ you know, and I think that I liked the fact that you mentioned like 33 months away from your family. And I think that's a really significant number that people sometimes forget. And you know, I, from, from my experience and you know,
I didn't serve nearly as long close to maybe a decade. But getting out of the military was a challenging transition. And one of the things that you said really kind of hopped out to me is that the work you're doing now at your museum is a way to continue serving. And I think that's that that's beautiful, because it is it is really an act of service. And when you think of the work you're doing at the museum, it's you know, you're capturing stories you're capturing, you're trying to capture an essence like
What is it that you really hope people leave your museum and taking away with them?
Bill Butler (03:15)
You know, there's so many stereotypes out there about veterans. And, you know, the reality is there's right now, today, there's only about one half of 1 % of Americans served in the military. And that's okay. We're an all volunteer force and we have been since 1973. So there's a lot of stereotypes. You know, if you watch TV or movies, it's mostly a, you know, drug addicted, PTSD, riddled.
veteran, they might be involved in doing some sort of nefarious activity. know, they're a down range or a contractor overseas doing illegal stuff. And we want people to know that they're everyday people like you and me. And it may be the mailman that's delivering your mail. It may be the person that's, you know, pre-washing your car at Google car wash. It may be the executive at Nationwide Insurance.
So it's, you people from all walks of life, all socioeconomic backgrounds. And similarly, when you get out, there are people that then, you know, when you transition out and you leave the military, whether it's three years or 30 years, like me almost, and you get to re-identify yourself. You take the uniform off that you've been wearing for really long time. You take that rank off, the sense of identity that you had, the sense of purpose with an incredible mission and working with men and women committed to that mission and to each other.
You've got to find that and replicate that. there's not a huge market for infantry officers. There's not a huge market for tankers or field artillery men or fighter pilots or submarine drivers. So what are you going to do? You got to figure that out. And that can be challenging for a lot of folks is, I've been doing this for five or 30 years. What am I going to do next? And for me, as I was doing that soul searching on
You know, what do I want to try to go into the private sector, corporate America, sales, government? You know, I migrated towards something that kind of filled my buckets. gave me that intrinsic value of service. So for two years after I retired, I was at a department of the army civilian and I worked at US Army Africa, which is headquartered in Vicenza, Italy. You know, I was an exercise deputy director.
So we did all of our exercises that the United States Army did on the African continent with our partners in Nigeria and Senegal and Tunisia, Morocco, Kenya, and other countries. And so that was one of those things that was very comfortable. And I call it retirement light, something that I'd done for the better part of my career and then transitioned into doing that. And so I'm around military people. The lingo hadn't really changed that much.
You know, the only change was I had to figure out, you know, what my civilian uniform was in the war grove. But I wasn't getting the three o'clock in the morning phone calls. Hey, sir, sorry to wake you up. you know, this is Captain So-and-so. Specialist Smith just got picked up downtown for getting in a fight with somebody else. So I was able to enjoy, you know, living in northern Italy with my wife who's an empty nester. And then, you know, this opportunity here at the museum opened up and
was trying to move back to Ohio for some family reasons. you know, it it filled the bucket. Still feel like I'm serving and sharing that veteran experience and, you know, talking about service and sacrifice in some cases, but talking about the incredible people who serve our country and to share their stories.
Ryan Mullens (07:00)
Yeah, no, I love that. As you're talking, and you're saying like that stereotype going back to what you're saying initially, like that, that song Copperhead Road kind of always clips into my mind, right? You know, it's, you know, the military people coming, coming back from their service or leaving, that's always a difficult transition. But there's beautiful skills that they develop there as well. And, and I think, you know, I look at some of my friends who, you know, spent their a good chunk of their career
Bill Butler (07:09)
Great.
Ryan Mullens (07:29)
and transitioning into different areas like oil and gas and safety, security, all sorts of different, different places. But that, that transition back. I think that's, I think that was part of the veteran's story. I'm kind of curious. They, you know, I love, you know, we were talking earlier and you're, you're pointing out that you have pictures of before and after, like when the soldier was young and then, you know, and it kind of captures that. But
You know, I think there's this this aspect of, once a soldier or as a soldier, and they're going to carry a lot of their experience and some of those psychological wounds to from deployment. Do you address that at all in your museum? Just out of curiosity. Yeah.
Bill Butler (08:13)
Yeah, so we, yes,
absolutely. So some of the programs that we've done either, you know, address PTSD, behavioral health issues, wellness, resilience, some of those different aspects to, you know, talk about post-traumatic stress, but also talk about post-traumatic growth as well. So we've done, we've tried to address as much as we can. So some of the exhibits that we've featured,
Ryan Mullens (08:33)
Mmm.
Bill Butler (08:42)
or by artists or about those sorts of topics. So, creative vets in Nashville, Tennessee is a great organization and they use different mediums of art for veterans to then come in and work on, know, songwriting or painting or poetry or metallurgy to then, you know, kind of get in the moment and be focused on
whatever project they're doing or medium of art, and it kind of clears your head. Did you really got to focus on the here and the now when you're welding metal or doing a oil painting or something like that? And it allows you to escape from some of those wounds of war or trauma that some veterans have experienced. We had a resilience summit where we brought thought leaders in that.
those topics together to talk about PTSD and behavioral health and yoga and jujitsu and some of those practices of, you know, being present, you know, addressing issues. We're very open about that. We don't want people to suffer in silence. We don't want people to not ask for help. So we try to reinforce the importance of that. We've had fly fishing groups come to the museum. We've had adaptive athletes.
that adaptive veteran athletes come to the museum for particular programs that they have as well. And really at the end of the day, if a veteran is, you know, might be struggling with anxiety or depression or some of those, you know, other challenges that we have in life, and we provide these opportunities for them, you know, it allows them to be in the present, to be focused and to put some of that stuff in either back of mind or
get help that they might need. We've got a great local VA here in Columbus and in a lot of our events we'll have, we've either partnered with the VA for some art workshops and it's dance classes and collage workshops and painting, as well as having to able set up the get veterans enrolled in healthcare that they've earned as a benefit by their service.
Ryan Mullens (11:04)
So you're much more than a museum or a memorial, you?
Bill Butler (11:08)
Yeah, we try to be, you know, we don't want to be a museum for veterans. you know, National Veterans Memorial and Museum, a lot of people think, that's just a veteran thing. We don't want to be that. And some of the programs that we used to do, athletic events, we'll do, you know, several CrossFit workouts, hero workouts in the day. Here, we used to do yoga several times a week. We did Jiu Jitsu classes.
Ryan Mullens (11:28)
Mm.
Bill Butler (11:34)
It doesn't really matter what the activity is, but you bring people together and it may be veterans or maybe civilians, but people with shared experiences, shared interests, and then it helps with that connection and brings people together. And they don't have to be veterans exclusively. And in fact, that's what we don't need is just veterans together. It brings a community together and then it helps break down some of the stereotypes because the
You know, the nurse that works at Nationwide Children's is doing an activity with a Marine veteran or an Army veteran and there she's learning about the veteran experience or vice versa.
Ryan Mullens (12:13)
Yeah. So there's a variety of services that you have educational programs, you're engaging youth, you're teaching about the veteran experience, about the military in and of itself. And you have a variety of programs. Is there any program in particular you're particularly proud of?
Bill Butler (12:34)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the one thing we've really focused on this year is our education program. And that's grown by 40 % since last year. And we've partnered with StoryCorps, which is part of National Public Radio. They've got a program called Military Voices Initiative. So if you go on our website under education, it'll say StoryCorps.
And so we've partnered with them and some the local high schools and middle schools. It allows kids to meet the curriculum requirements for their school by interviewing a veteran. It could be relative, just could be person down the street. But those stories are recorded on the co-branded app online. And then, you know, they're generally about 30 or 40 minutes long. And then those stories are curated through StoryCorps to the Library of Congress as part of their
American Folk Life Initiative or project. so it's a way for young people to sit with a veteran that they may know. They may know them well because they're a relative. They may not know them well because it's just the person down the street, but learn more about that veteran experience. And it's not exclusively about their service. The conversation goes wherever it goes. And yeah, so that's a way that we can get young people
connected to veterans and allow veterans that opportunity to share their story. So it's not lost the history and it'll be at the Library of Congress. So it's going to be in perpetuity.
Matthew Cudmore (14:08)
Yeah, there's really no better place for it is there. We actually just recently spoke with the Veterans History Project on the podcast yeah, yeah. I was going to say, do you get the chance to listen to any of those interviews? Is there one that you recall?
Bill Butler (14:15)
they do great stuff.
Yeah,
not in their entirety, but some of the ones that they have made into cartoons and you can watch them online are really, really impactful. The one, when we first started the project here, we announced it at Veterans Day, so we haven't been partnering with them super long, but we announced it. And one of the ones they had was by an Army veteran. He'd been in Kunar, Afghanistan, which is where I incidentally had served on one of my deployments.
Matthew Cudmore (14:30)
Right.
Bill Butler (14:51)
And it just talked about this cake that is Mimol from Georgia had made and she wrapped it up and all this Saran wrap and everything boxed it, shipped it to him. he just, you know, it just, was an incredible morale boost to that guy and his team. And, you know, at the end he talks about, you know, we were dirty and we had clean cake. We were hungry and we had this.
Ryan Mullens (15:13)
You
Bill Butler (15:15)
know, nourishing thing that I grew up with made by my grandmother. We were alone, but we felt loved. So it was, you know, just one of those stories. And, you you look around the room and, you know, half our staff's crying and, you know, doing the, you know, I'm not crying. What are you looking at? That thing. And it was just one of the, it's really moving and in many cases, a very powerful
Ryan Mullens (15:27)
Hmm.
I love those those stories. And and it's those those pieces that you know, it's funny. It's, you know, that that aspect of that story taking place in Afghanistan could have just as well taken place in World War One, two, right? And it just it's kind of that it just that beautiful and I think that's why it gets us it's it's it touches our humanity and we can we can empathize with that or
Bill Butler (15:51)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Mullens (16:02)
try to put ourselves in his shoes and how much that meant to him.
Bill Butler (16:06)
Yeah. Did you guys ever see that there's a movie that came out? It was probably 2017, 2018. was called They Shall Not Grow Old. And British Army had taken this footage from World War I and they colorized it. And you could take those same soldiers and kind of the goofing off that they were doing in World War I and be like, oh my God, those guys are my platoon from...
Matthew Cudmore (16:17)
Yeah.
Bill Butler (16:33)
10th Mountain Division in 1890 or my battalion in 2009 in Afghanistan. you take the person out of the experience and plop them through time travel 100 years later. It's like, oh my God, they haven't changed. 18 year olds are still 18 year olds.
Ryan Mullens (16:50)
Right?
Matthew Cudmore (16:50)
So
it's so true. watched it. We watched the film premiere together. Yeah. Peter Jackson did an incredible job. It was surreal to watch, you know, that that day to day experience for the soldiers. Ryan, sorry, go ahead.
Bill Butler (16:54)
Yes.
Ryan Mullens (16:54)
We did, yeah. I remember that.
Well, just Yeah,
no, and I just agree with you, Matt, and just how they slowed it down and colorized it. And it's amazing just what making the movements real time and then like, like you said, Bill is like, yeah, you just guys laughing and you know, how have their hats on and just playing around with a German helmet and stuff like that. Yeah, you could totally just Yeah, take one of those guys and plop them in your platoon in Afghanistan versus
Matthew Cudmore (17:09)
Yeah.
Bill Butler (17:23)
Right.
Ryan Mullens (17:33)
vice versa. I think that's, and I think, you know, that's, that's a great example of, you know, the arts and similar to what you're doing, which I think is just the important piece is to humanize. know, and that's what we're we try to do at Memory Anchor is, you know, we use our technology and mainly cemeteries to, to really bring that story to a headstone.
to remind people that this is as an individual that had a story that had a family, had, you know, dreams and aspirations, but, you know, gave that up and the service and to remind people that it's not just a headstone. This was a person. And
when you can connect to just one story, I believe that you can connect to so much more. And that's why I really love what what you're doing on so many levels. And it's just been great to to learn more about what you're doing, because you're sharing those stories and you're creating that connection. And I think that's just so important.
Bill Butler (18:33)
Yeah, we do too. I mean, that's one of the reasons we exist and a little bit of our origin story as a museum on this where the museum currently sits in the 1950s, they built a auditorium. It's called the Franklin County Vets Memorial. And it was a concert venue. Elvis Presley played here, James Brown, Britney Spears, a bunch of other musicians in between. became
Ryan Mullens (18:56)
Hmm.
Bill Butler (18:59)
the location that every lawyer in the state of Ohio had to take their bar exam. And it became a high school graduation venue. And across the street and on the other side of our sister museum, the Center of Science and Industry is a high rise condominium tower and John Glenn, U.S. Senator John Glenn, astronaut, combat marine, aviator, U.S. Senator. He lived there when he was retired. And so he, from his perch, looked
across the field and across the other museum to where the Franklin County or Franklin Vets Memorial was. At this point, auditorium is 50 or 55 years old and he would meet with community leaders and he would say, Vets Memorial needs to be updated. It does nothing to honor our veterans. And so they were going to renovate it and it was going to be about $32 million to bring it up to code.
He said, you know what, let's do something innovative. Let's tear the damn thing down and build something that is worthy of our veterans. So they raised $84 million in private funds. They hired Ralph Applebaum and Associates, who's famous for the museum side of the Holocaust Museum, National, sorry, the National World War I Museum, African American Museum, the Smithsonian, and dozens of museums around the world. So he's just kind of the storyteller.
inside. And then they hired Brad Clayfield, who's the architect. And he came up with this very unique design, know, circle and circle and circle, so five circles inside of each other. And it's, you know, kind of these cross concrete arches, a lot of glass, very open space. And then inside you've got this timeline. And so there's some symbology people attach with it if you look.
at our Memorial Grove in the circular building. It almost looks like a semicolon. so a semicolon is associated with, you know, suicide ideology, suicide attempts where people have actually contemplated taking their lives. They haven't. So there's a semicolon that a lot of people will get tattooed on their body somewhere to tell that story. You know, a lot of people will say, what kind of looks like the crossed, you know, yellow ribbon that people would tie around the oak tree back during Vietnam.
Matthew Cudmore (21:02)
Hmm.
Ryan Mullens (21:16)
Hmm.
Bill Butler (21:27)
And other people will associate it with kind of the strength symbology of the arches and the concrete and the rebar underneath. And our founding president and CEO was in the building before it opened and some guy walked in. He said, hey, excuse me, can I help you? And the guy said, no, I know where I'm going. He said, excuse me, who are you? We haven't opened yet. Where are you going? He's like, oh, I'm Brad Clayfield, I'm the architect. He's like, oh my God. And he said.
He said, know, why this design? And he said, you know, circular buildings with arches are really hard. You know, this is first building of this size attempted. So he wanted the challenge. And he said, you know, I need something to be able to tell, you know, audience members why this kind of design like this, what did you intend for the space to be? And he said, I wanted ethical space. And so, you know, a lot of times veterans will come in and they'll be
know, multi-generational family. It'll be a veteran, their spouse, maybe some grandkids, maybe, you know, some adult kids. And a lot of times, you know, they'll be walking through the museum and they'll either call back to the welcome desk or write a review and or just tell our staff, you know, this is the first time dad, more often than not, because a lot of veterans are men, this is first time our dad has told this story.
or his first time, my husband has shared the story that we've been married for 45 years. So it becomes this touchstone for veterans to then feel comfortable. You walk through the museum, the 14 thematic alcoves, and some areas will elicit an emotional reaction because veterans are talking about combat, their experience in Vietnam or World War II, Iraq, Afghanistan, or whatever.
Or they talk about when they came home from deployments or when friends of theirs did not come home. And so you get this emotion, raw emotion that sometimes people will experience. it gives them that sense of safety, if you will. And they will then open up and share stories. And we've had, we've probably had hundreds of veterans at this point, or just people in general will come in and say, my God, I served with that guy.
or I took this photo or, you know, that's my mom, you know, in the placard in the great hall. And that happens all the time. And it could be, I worked with, my sister was here years ago and she said, my God, I had no idea Brian was in the Coast Guard. They worked together at a marketing research firm down in Cincinnati. So there's, you know, these immediate personal connections that people will have to the museum when they walk through and experience the.
Ryan Mullens (23:56)
Hmm.
Bill Butler (24:20)
the exhibits or some of the programs that we have.
Matthew Cudmore (24:23)
No, it sounds like you know, the ripple effects for the museum and memorial are, know, across, across people of geographies and generations. That's really, really special. What do you think John Glenn would say? I think he passed away in 2016. I may be misspeaking.
Bill Butler (24:32)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So he passed
away. We opened in October of 2018. He passed away, you know, before the museum was constructed. And, you know, his, really wanted to share the veteran experience to inspire others. So I think we were doing that. I know we're doing that. You know, people walk through and, you know, they'll be blown away by hearing the stories or seeing the photos or seeing their own service or having their service validated. I mean, we've had Vietnam veterans come in and, um,
Matthew Cudmore (24:44)
Right.
Yeah.
Bill Butler (25:09)
you know, complete the thing, we give them a certificate, you know, thanking them for their service. And it's got, you know, the Vietnam campaign medals on it and stuff. yeah, more often than not, they, you know, they're teary eyed and they'll, they've more than one have shared, you know, this museum, it validates the service that I did 50, you know, 55 years ago, whenever they were in Vietnam. And then at the welcome home ceremony that we're going to do on Saturday,
We partner with some of local schools and they've created these posters, you know, welcome home, thank you for your service, we love you, that sort of stuff. And the neat thing is at the end of that ceremony, you'll have high school kids and these Vietnam vets who are in their late seventies or mid eighties gather and they start talking. And the young kids will ask the Vietnam veterans about their service or their experience or why they served, what it was like, that sort of thing, which is exactly what we want.
We want this intergenerational understanding to take place and create this empathy for the veteran experience, but we also want people to be inspired by it as well.
Matthew Cudmore (26:19)
What do think it means for the veterans that are having those interactions?
Bill Butler (26:24)
You know, I think it's all 99.9 % positive. you know, if you look at the photos in the Great Hall, they're big poster-sized photos, and, you know, we'll have field trips and we'll ask kids, okay, you you look at this older person, they're a veteran, what one word comes to mind when you see that person's face? And it's always pride, determination, grit.
happiness and there's no one ever says, they're solemn or they're sad or anything like that. There's always a very positive description that young kids, know, when they're solicited about it has or come up with.
Matthew Cudmore (27:07)
want to shift to look forward a little bit. I know you're celebrating your sixth year in operations and you probably have big plans for the future. Are there any strategic plans that are kind of going forward into next year and years to follow?
Bill Butler (27:26)
Yeah, so we're finalizing our strategic plan as we then that will really guide the organization for the next five to 10 years in really looking at ways that we can collaborate with other organizations here in Columbus, but also across the nation to meet that intent that John Glenn had to share the veteran experience to.
Inspire service and others to make those connections through various organizations that have some sort of Excuse me have some sort of opportunity or activity the veterans can participate in with either other veterans or just members of their community help help with that connection piece
Matthew Cudmore (28:06)
you know, I think about all the banners that are hanging in your halls, all the stories, all the faces. there, before we go, is there any particular individual story that you wanted to share that, know, that's really kind of kept you going in your mission and your day to day.
Bill Butler (28:19)
Yeah, so there's two that always resonate with me the most. One is Elizabeth Johnson. She was an African-American woman, served in World War II. And at the time, you got to remember we had a segregated military. were limited opportunities for African-Americans. They could only be cooks, clerks, mechanics, and truck drivers, Tuskegee Airmen being the exception. So she was a clerk in the 6888 Postal Unit.
movie just came out with Kerry Washington by that very name. so they, you know, she, during the, her service in England helped deliver millions of pieces of mail to the front lines from Normandy all the way to the end of the war. And there are other, if you watch the movie, there are other units that tried to do it and they just couldn't figure it out. And they went and threw.
Matthew Cudmore (28:49)
Right?
Bill Butler (29:13)
You know, a lot of hard work, determination and never quit attitude. They figured it out and they were able to connect, you know, American soldiers, airmen, sailors to their families by getting those pieces of mail delivered either to the front lines or back to their families. And then the other one is Bobby Henline. And he was in the army in the late night, yeah, late nineties. He got out, was doing a civilian thing. September 11th happens.
And his immediate reaction is, heck no, not to my country. So he reenlisted in the army and he's downrange with first cavalry division and the vehicle that he's in gets ambushed by insurgents. you know, they eat one of those really lethal IEDs that the Iranians were transporting into the insurgent networks.
Bunch of guys in his vehicle were either killed or horribly wounded. And he was one of those horribly wounded, lost part of his left arm, lost his left leg, burns all over his body. If you look at the before and after photo, the photo when he was in service, before the incident and then after service, it's a night and day, know, shocking difference. But the photo of his veteran experience, he's sitting next to service dog.
And he's got this million dollar smile on his face like, you got nothing on me. And it's just, you know, that's just one of those stories that gets at the grit and resilience of our veterans. you know, despite horrific injuries and experiences, he's still able to have a smile on his face, share his experience with others, and talk about that resilience and how important that is.
Ryan Mullens (30:40)
Hmm.
that is that is awesome. I love hearing those stories. And I really appreciate being able to just sit down and have the chance to talk to you today and learn a little bit more about your space. Because, you know, as we had this conversation, it's really clear to me it's so much more than what meets the eye. And actually, as I'm hearing you talk, I'm seeing this as a space of actual healing, you know, for veterans as well. And there's something so important, I believe in
witnessing and being seen and that experience being seen and whether that's a Vietnam vet, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any veteran that served at any point that that witnessing is just so important and which just speaks to the importance of the work you all are doing. So from John Glenn's vision to I believe what it's become is actually so much more than even that vision was. And I just really want to thank you for your service.
and your continued service as you help people understand what it means to be a veteran, to serve the country, and also help create a space for healing.
Bill Butler (32:11)
Yeah, thank you, Ryan, and thank you, Matthew, for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.
Ryan Mullens (32:15)
Right before we get going, if someone wants to learn more about the National Veterans Memorial and Museum, where should they go? What should they look into?
Bill Butler (32:22)
Yeah, so our website is nationalvmm.org. That'll take you right to the main website and our events pages listed, education resources, resources for veterans, resources for Gold Star family members as well. And of course we got a Facebook page, Instagram, LinkedIn pages as well. And those stories that we currently gather and share are also on those different social media channels.
Ryan Mullens (32:51)
Bill, this has been great. Thank you so much. And thanks so much to our listeners for tuning in. Please tune in again for our next episode.