Why You Know What to Do, But Still Don’t Do It: The Real Reason Men Stay Stuck with Food and Fitness

🎙️ Episode 23 – Why You Know What to Do, But Still Don’t Do It: The Real Reason Men Stay Stuck with Food and Fitness

If you've ever told yourself, "I know what to do... I just don’t do it", this episode is for you.

In this brutally honest and practical episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland (Certified EMDR Therapist) and Zack Carter (Counselor & Coach) go beyond nutrition advice and fitness hacks. They explore the emotional and psychological barriers that sabotage your efforts to eat better, work out consistently, and stay disciplined.

Whether your weakness is midnight cheese and crackers, weekend binges, or post-stress drive-thru rituals—there’s likely something deeper going on. And it's not just about willpower.

You’ll discover:

Why food is emotionally fused with comfort, control, and celebration
The real reason David Goggins-style motivation often backfires
How your early life experiences secretly shape your eating habits today
The role of thoughts like “I deserve this” and “I need this” in keeping you stuck
How CBT and EMDR-informed strategies can break the shame-spiral
The difference between healthy goals and toxic perfectionism
Why stewardship of your body can be a powerful act of faith

💡 Stick around to the end for a practical mindset shift and journaling exercise to finally escape the all-or-nothing trap and build real, lasting change.

👉 Ready to stop self-sabotaging and start showing up for your body, mind, and faith? SCHEDULE A FREE, 30-MINUTE CONSULT with Mark or Zack at: https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. We tackle real issues—masculinity, trauma, addiction, identity, marriage, purpose, and faith—with clarity, courage, and zero fluff.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Zack Carter: 00:00

Right? Like many other people, it's also stress, man. When we get stressed, when we're anxious, food is very comforting. Food helps to calm down that stress. Definitely.

Zack Carter: 00:10

If we're depressed, food helps to give us a little bump up, makes us feel a little better, right? And so oftentimes we're like, why can't I do the thing that the buff guy says on YouTube? Why can't I do what David Goggins is telling me to do and just go out and run 40 miles on my first day. Right? And it's because oftentimes we have these emotional barriers.

Zack Carter: 00:31

And so something needs to happen with that anxiety, something needs to happen with that depression, something needs to happen with that celebration in order to make this process of changing how we eat, changing how we exercise

Mark Odland: 00:44

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 00:45

In a better way.

Mark Odland: 00:51

Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Oddland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.

Zack Carter: 00:58

And I'm Zach Carter, counselor and coach.

Mark Odland: 01:01

And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the lions they were created to be. Well, if you've ever felt stuck like you know what to do to lose weight, but you can't seem to do it, this episode is for you. A lot of podcasts out there will will tell you how to eat better and exercise more, but few will actually talk about the real reason that we stay stuck, our thoughts and our emotions. And so today, we're gonna dig deep into the mental and emotional barriers that sabotage our progress and show you how to break through them so that you can finally move forward in your health journey. Make sure to hang on till the very end because we try to give you guys practical advice and ideas on how to think about these things, how how to put our principles into action.

Mark Odland: 01:51

And since you're already here, if you could hit that subscribe button, we we'd really appreciate it. Helps us get the word out to more guys. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, Zach.

Mark Odland: 02:02

Escape the cage now. So so, yeah, how do we think about this? It's it's so interesting to think about the saturation of material out there on how to lose weight. Right? And I know it's it's not applicable to us having 5% body fat.

Mark Odland: 02:38

So it's just like

Zack Carter: 02:39

don't know. 3%.

Mark Odland: 02:42

3%. Actually, have no body fat. I am

Zack Carter: 02:46

not. 0%. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 02:49

Yeah. So, obviously, we're not gonna pretend to be a dietitian. We're not gonna pretend to be a nutritionist, but that's not really what we're going for here. We've got people who have these expert you know, these fields of expertise, but you can have all the information in the world. But if you get sabotaged, right, by the emotions, by the thoughts, by these different things that get in the way Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 03:13

We can't take it anywhere. So, yeah, let's let's let's dive in a little bit, Zach. Where where are we how do we think about these things?

Zack Carter: 03:19

Yeah. Let's start with me, man. I grew up I was a chubby kid, dude. Like, I was real chubby. I got teased for it.

Zack Carter: 03:27

And, you know, I turned 16 and there's this girl, man, and I thought she was cute. I was really into this girl. And I was like, I can't ask this girl out looking the way I look, man. And so I took a year and I cleaned up my eating, I exercised, I lost 50 pounds. Too Oh my much weight is what I lost.

Zack Carter: 03:53

I went too far. My grandmother was like, are you eating? Are you okay? And I was like, I'm fine grandma, leave me alone. But but yeah, man.

Zack Carter: 04:06

And, you know, ever since that, I kept it off for a few years and then started gaining it back, you know. And, you know, you know, I started dating my wife at the time and you start dating people and you start gaining weight again. You're like, I wasn't just eating my food, I was eating like half her plate, you know. She's like, I'm done with this. Do you want this?

Zack Carter: 04:24

And then suddenly I start gaining weight. It's weird. So, you know, this has been a topic that's been near and dear to my heart for a long time. Yeah. And so I I really kinda wanted to lay out what are the things, what are good motivators, what are things that hold us back from actually making the change?

Zack Carter: 04:43

And so

Mark Odland: 04:44

Sure. Sure.

Zack Carter: 04:45

First off, let's let's go to the cognitive behavioral therapy graph. Okay? So I've got that pulled up. And so as a therapist, whenever a person presents me their problems, this graph is kind of in the back of my head, right? And so what we see is we got the behaviors at the top.

Zack Carter: 05:00

So the person's coming to me and saying like, I want to change my behavior, Right? I don't wanna eat as much or I wanna work out more or whatever it is. Oftentimes they're hyper focused on the behaviors, but they're not really thinking about the thoughts and feelings. And so in the back of my head Yeah. I'm like, what are the thoughts that are leading to this behavior?

Zack Carter: 05:16

What are the feelings? Right? And so let's talk about me for a second. Let's talk about feelings and and why food was difficult for me to control and and sometimes And can still be a that's that Friday rolls around, time to celebrate. Right?

Zack Carter: 05:35

My eating is pretty clean Monday through Thursday, but then when the weekend hits, I'm like, work hard, play hard, let's go. And so so I'm eating insane amounts of calories. Insane amounts of calories. Right? At one point, just to show you how many calories I was eating, at one point I to lose a little weight, I trained and ran a marathon, didn't lose a single pound.

Zack Carter: 06:00

Didn't lose a single pound because I was eating Chinese food all the time, right? And so like, what the heck is going on there, right? What's going on there? Well, you know, like many people, food is very comforting for me, Right? So what do we have at graduations?

Zack Carter: 06:19

Cake. Right? What do we have at birthdays? Cake. What do we have, you know, Thanksgiving.

Zack Carter: 06:28

Right? It's typically not cake, but lots of pies. Right? And lots of other good food to like, when we're enjoying something, usually good food is involved. Right?

Zack Carter: 06:39

And so my brain attaches celebration to eating. Right? Good feelings with eating. Right? And so Wow.

Zack Carter: 06:46

That's like part number one for me. Right? But like Yeah. Many other people, it's also stress, man. When we get stressed, when we're anxious, food is very comforting.

Zack Carter: 06:56

Food helps to calm down Definitely. If we're depressed, food helps to give us a little bump up, makes us feel a little better, right? And so oftentimes we're like, why can't I do the thing that the buff guy says on YouTube? Why can't I do what David Goggins is telling me to do and just go out and run 40 miles on my first day, right? And it's because oftentimes we have these emotional barriers and so something needs to happen with that anxiety, something needs to happen with that depression, something needs to happen with that celebration in order to make this process of changing how we eat, changing how we exercise Yeah.

Zack Carter: 07:34

In a better way. Mark, have you have you ever struggled with food or working out or have you had clients? And what did you do?

Mark Odland: 07:46

Of course. Well, I think it's so fascinating because a lot of the principles you're talking about with from a CBT perspective, they actually do overlap with my work doing EMDR therapy with guys. Mhmm. And you rightly nailed that issue of celebration, how our brain can associate besides just the physiological relief that we get from eating sugary, salty, fat food. Right?

Mark Odland: 08:12

It's, it seems primal. It seems very deep within us. Right? Our ancestors, they got lucky enough to kill that animal or find those berries. They gorged themselves.

Mark Odland: 08:22

Right? I mean, they just went to town because they didn't know when their next meal might be. It might be two days. It might be three days. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 08:28

And now we live in this, quote, unquote, civilized world where we're disconnected from where we get our food, and we have a million options at the grocery store, and it's just right there for us. Right? And our brain says, I know how to feel good right now. Right? And what I found is when I do an assessment with clients, celebration is one of the big ones.

Mark Odland: 08:48

Right? It's because there's it's not just the physiological dopamine response in our body, but it's also that emotional response of wanting to feel wanting to celebrate to feel I'm good I'm good enough. I did a good job. I deserve this. It could also be I'm in control.

Mark Odland: 09:07

It can also be I'm loved. It could so take a basic human need in the form of an I statement, and any one of those things can get fused to food depending on our life experiences. So coming back back to me, right, struggling. Like, I actually went to a literal EMDR workshop on this kind of thing, and they had us break off in pairs. And then they had us think to ourselves, what's, like, your earliest positive memory around food?

Mark Odland: 09:33

Right? Mhmm. And they thought about, oh, what's the biggest struggle you have around a behavior or food? Right? And I was saying, you know what?

Mark Odland: 09:40

Man, I love those cheese and crackers. I love to sit down in front of the TV at night after the kids are in bed. I'm gonna eat those cheese and crackers. It's gonna feel great. Right?

Mark Odland: 09:49

Mhmm. And, it's like this little ritual. But it wasn't great. It's not great for me. Right?

Mark Odland: 09:53

Mhmm. And then, so in the exercise of the training, they said, okay. Now think tap into the feeling. Even if it's totally irrational, what's the feeling you get about yourself besides the phys besides the physical comfort? I'm like, yes.

Mark Odland: 10:06

It feels kinda weird. Kinda seems silly to say it, but, yeah, it's kinda this, like, I feel loved and accepted feeling. And then you go, okay. Just let your mind drift back to one of the earliest times you felt that way. And I was sitting in front of the TV with my dad watching the ball games, watching the twins.

Mark Odland: 10:24

And it was a comforting memory. I felt connected to my dad. I felt loved, and we're watching TV. Surprise surprise. Now my mind is like like it knows this pathway to kind of almost recreate the memory that has positive relational associations.

Mark Odland: 10:40

And for any of us who are blessed to have a grandma who could cook really good, man there's so many grandma memories that are like sorry grandma you set us up for a lifetime of like interesting associations with food because it felt like love right? It felt like felt like love it when she made that mashed potatoes and gravy or she made the, you know, the the casserole. Oh, yeah. So so, yeah, I think there's a lot of power in that.

Zack Carter: 11:05

Yeah. Thanks for the diabetes, grandma.

Mark Odland: 11:09

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And the funniest thing is my grandma was, like, super tiny and, like, you know, super trim. And she would just kinda nibble as she was eating and then she'd get away to other people.

Mark Odland: 11:21

Right. It's it's how

Zack Carter: 11:22

it feels. But everybody else was, like, struggling with their weight. Like, why am I forty pounds overweight? Because grandma nibbles and passes the rest to us. There

Mark Odland: 11:32

there's that. There's that. Yeah. So so, yeah, I think that that it'd be the humorous side. I think there's a lot of power in those emotions.

Mark Odland: 11:41

Right? And if we're really honest with ourselves and we really take the time to dissect the complex emotions and positive beliefs around food, there's something there that for most of us. And and what I validate for people is it's normal to wanna feel healthy pride in a job well done. It's normal to wanna feel loved. It's normal to wanna have some sense of control.

Mark Odland: 12:04

We just don't want that to be arbitrarily fused to eating. Mhmm. Because then it gives us the illusion of these things in a way that actually can be destructive to our health instead of build us up. Right? Yeah.

Mark Odland: 12:18

And so the truth is eating cheese and crackers at midnight does not make me loved. I hate to break it to myself or

Zack Carter: 12:26

But it feels like out there.

Mark Odland: 12:28

But it feels like it. So a better path would be like, okay. Let's let go of that lie. Right? And let's actually talk to someone who actually loves me instead of sitting alone watching infomercials.

Mark Odland: 12:42

Right? Yeah. So so there's it's half of its awareness. And then it's how do you how do you break it? That's another thing.

Zack Carter: 12:48

That's good. That's good, man. Cognitive behavioral therapy, we call that emotional reasoning. Like, sometimes things feel true, but they're not logically true. So I like how you're differentiating between the truth and the lie.

Zack Carter: 13:01

You know? I I know that's big into EMDR. You've said, you've said is like really well thought out. Let's move to thoughts as well. So we were talking about associations emotions and food and how that can be very difficult.

Zack Carter: 13:14

Next we've got the thoughts that hold us back. One of the ones that you said that I think it was very powerful was, I deserve this. Right? Yeah. End of the week.

Zack Carter: 13:25

I definitely that one hit home for me. I'm like, yeah, dude. Time to get that tortilla chips and cheese and like some some like ice cream. Right? And just like you said, I'm like thinking through my head, I'm like, where where does this come from?

Zack Carter: 13:41

And like, you know, that's what we were doing. We're like, wasn't cheese and crackers for us. Right? My dad was Puerto Rican. So I was like, tortilla chips for everything.

Zack Carter: 13:47

Like, with my chili, with my with my salsa, with everything. Like, tortilla chips abound. And so yeah. So definitely, I deserve this. I'm sure for many people, you know, it can be things like I need this, right?

Zack Carter: 14:02

That if we don't have healthy coping mechanisms, it's it's I need this. Another thought that comes to mind for me for a lot of people is when they decide that they actually wanna make the change, they engage in what we call all or nothing thinking. Right? So Sure. New Year's comes around.

Zack Carter: 14:21

Alright, bro. I'm gonna work out two hours a day every day. I'm never missing a day, and I'm eating nothing but kale. I don't even like kale, but like that's all I'm gonna eat. That's all I'm eating for the next six months.

Zack Carter: 14:34

And like, maybe a day in, we're like, no. I'm back to my nachos and cheese. Right? And so like, what do we do about that? And, like, I'm sorry if you've been listening to all these videos and it feels like we're saying the same thing over and over again, but it's because it's literally true.

Zack Carter: 14:54

That oftentimes we we don't start where we quote unquote should be, where would be ideal. Where we start is what we're actually capable, what we're actually willing to do. I was just watching a video on fitness recently, and he's like, same thing Dave Ramsey says about finances, you start with the smallest debt and then build up. This guy was like showing pictures of all the different body types from like really obese to like a little bit obese to like kinda sort of fit to a little bit more fit to fit to even more fit to like shredded. And he was saying, you don't go from obese to shredded.

Zack Carter: 15:34

And that's what we wanna do. We're like, hey, fast forward me to shredded. Right? I wanna look like freaking Thor. It's like, no.

Zack Carter: 15:41

That's not you you have to take it in small segments at a time. Right? So that all or nothing thinking can really hold us back. So what any any ideas about what you've noticed about thoughts either in yourself or in others that holds them back from either losing weight or exercising more?

Mark Odland: 16:00

Well, I think yeah. And I think it's it's it's stuck out to me when you said the idea from being this overweight to being, like, shredded like Thor. Mhmm. And I think my first thought is actually that's interesting because it could be that in its own way, the shredded guy is dealing with some health issues just like the guy who's got some pounds to drop. Because there's a trend.

Mark Odland: 16:26

This is pointed out in the the modern wisdom podcast recently. But that the it's trending in such a way where body dysmorphia, which is a mental health diagnosis, but not seeing your body accurately, thinking that you're you're you're too heavy when you're not, thinking that you're ugly when you're not, things like that. Right? Right now, it tips more heavily toward women, but it's trending in such a way where male diagnosis of body dysmorphia might overtake that within the next ten years. And so there's something to be said where, like, yeah, you could be that guy who is an influencer, who is shredded, who seems like he's got it all together.

Mark Odland: 17:05

But, man, I don't know. I don't know his story. I don't know how emotionally healthy he is. You know, there can be struggles with health in the bodybuilding community, for sure, a little bit taxing on the body, some of the things they do. And so I think one of those questions you talk about thoughts is in and my wife, Rachel, who's a certified wellness coach has kind of enlightened me on some of this is the idea of most of us wanna say, I wanna drop 10 pounds.

Mark Odland: 17:30

Pounds. That's like a common thing to say when you when you start counseling or coaching. I wanna drop 20 pounds. That might be a great goal. It might be a healthy goal for you, but not all of us actually understand why we're doing it.

Mark Odland: 17:41

We just have this sense that we would somehow be a better person, somehow look better, somehow you know, it's but it's kind of like but, really, why? Like, what what is what is the core underneath this? Right? Mhmm. And if it's just I feel bad about myself, sometimes that doesn't have the staying power, and we've talked about this in other podcasts as well.

Mark Odland: 18:03

So for me, it's like, well, okay. If I wanted to drop 10 pounds, maybe it's because I would feel more confident if I was a little trimmer. But maybe a better reason is or or an equally good reason is that and I want to live a long and healthy life so I can be around for my kids and grandkids. Right? Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 18:21

I'd like to think that motivation, if I can keep my focus on it, is gonna be more powerful than something that might be a little more superficial. Mhmm. And so I'm not knocking people who take beauty and take aesthetics seriously as an artist. I get that. But if it's so far in that direction, you know, you kinda start to border on some obsessive or unhealthy thinking sometimes too.

Mark Odland: 18:42

Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 18:43

That's so well said, and I'm so glad you went that direction. Because so in the example that I gave, like, it was birthed out of insecurity. Like, I'm not good enough to ask this girl out when I'm 16 Right. Until I lose the weight. Right?

Zack Carter: 19:01

And so, you know, I have a buddy that I've been that I've been working out for years with. And when you ask him why he works out, he looks great. Like, he's really fit. He looks great. He's like because I know afterwards I'll feel good.

Zack Carter: 19:16

I'll feel better. And so it's like a it's like a mental health thing for him. He knows that, like, if I go work out, he's like, I never regret a workout. And I've noticed the same thing in my life because I've like taken time to like pay attention. Like, how do I actually feel?

Zack Carter: 19:31

I do feel more confident.

Mark Odland: 19:32

It's a great point.

Zack Carter: 19:33

I do feel more positive emotions. I do feel more calmer. Right? And so sometimes we have to like get ourselves to like, okay, right now I don't feel like going to the gym. I don't feel like eating right.

Zack Carter: 19:46

But if you get yourself to do it, you pay attention to the after effects. You usually feel better after. Right? And so that's actually a realistic goal that I'm gonna do this because I'm gonna feel better versus I'm gonna do this so I can get a six pack. If you do that, you get discouraged when you don't see the six pack and then all of a sudden you quit.

Zack Carter: 20:04

Right? Because we want immediate gratification. Right? And so sometimes what we need to do is think through like what how is this gonna affect me in the medium to long term that benefits me to the medium to long term because we're so focused on feeling good now. Right?

Zack Carter: 20:21

Right. And so and that gets back to eating poorly. I wanna feel good now. Go ahead.

Mark Odland: 20:26

Yeah. I love that, Zach. I I think that's powerful because it's it's also kinda back to your cognitive behavioral stuff. It's sometimes the motivator that drives us is if I do this, then someday I'll achieve this. I mean, if I have a six pack, then I'll be happy?

Mark Odland: 20:44

Probably not, actually. I might I might be cool, but it's kinda weird if you're showing your buddies all the time. Like, I get we did we get it, dude. We got your six pack. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 20:52

How did how did it go on your date? Well, I showed her my six pack, she didn't call me back. Like, oh, so it came off the wrong way. Okay. It's like, so you need to actually know how to talk to people.

Mark Odland: 21:01

You need to have some depth. Like, oh, yeah. There's other things besides the six pack that make you, like, marketable in the dating field. Right?

Zack Carter: 21:06

Right.

Mark Odland: 21:07

So it's like, there can be a false assumption. Like, if you were to say having a six pack might slightly increase my odds of getting a date if I work on these other things too. Okay. That might be more in the realm of reality. But yeah.

Mark Odland: 21:22

So a little bit of tangent there, Zach. But

Zack Carter: 21:24

No. That's that's perfect. What you

Mark Odland: 21:25

got next for us?

Zack Carter: 21:26

Yeah. No. I mean, that's that's that's true that I I think and I think that's a lot of things in life that we expect that the results will be far greater than they actually will. Right? We expect that, like, six pack equals I get the girl of my dreams.

Zack Carter: 21:41

And it's like, so if you don't get the girl of your dreams, does that mean you need to stop working out now? Like, you know, it's it's yeah. What is the ultimate goal? And that's why it's like, hey. Maybe we need to the the goal needs to be things that are actually achievable, that are actually attainable.

Zack Carter: 22:00

I'm gonna do this because it's gonna make me feel better after. Yeah. And sometimes sometimes that might not be the case. Maybe it makes you feel, like, that much better, and you were hoping for, like, that much better. You know?

Zack Carter: 22:10

And it's like, okay. Well, then aim for that feeling that much better. So, you know, if you're listening and you're looking for a place to start. Right? I I love what you were saying earlier, Mark, around thinking through, okay, what do I feel when I have these meals?

Zack Carter: 22:28

Like, what are the emotions? And you said safe, loved, cared about. Mhmm. Right? And where did you first feel that?

Zack Carter: 22:36

And so, like, actually dig into where that comes from. Right? That's a really good place for our listeners to start. So I would encourage you listening here today. I'm gonna do it myself.

Zack Carter: 22:45

I think that's a great activity. So I'm gonna, like, think through, like, oh, man. What is it about chips? And my brain was already turned. I was like, oh, yeah.

Zack Carter: 22:51

It was with my family. Like, were always eating like Yeah. Tortilla chips. And so like now, if I'm have a hard week, it's like, alright. Get me some tortilla chips.

Zack Carter: 22:58

Like, that means I'm loved. So I'm gonna have to think through that. So that's that's where you can start today to kinda, like, begin the process of maybe actually moving towards the goal of eating healthier, exercising more, actually doing the things that you're watching on all these YouTube channels and, you know, wherever else you're getting your content. So Yeah.

Mark Odland: 23:22

Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love that, Zach. I mean, that's so you know, I'm I was just thinking too as a parting thought, you know, for our guys out there who, you know, their faith is important to them too.

Mark Odland: 23:32

I mean, there's that verse that came to mind about, you know, do you not know that your body is a is a temple of the holy spirit who is in you? Hon honor god with your bodies. Right? So that's another motivator. If if you're struggling to find a motivation in in your person of faith, it's kinda like just like we wanna take care of our house, just like we wanna take care of our car, take care of our family, we take care of our bodies, and it's an act of stewardship.

Mark Odland: 23:53

Right? It's an act of being entrusted with what we've been given in this life and to know that if it's healthy, it's not gonna be perfect, but if we can keep moving toward health, moving toward wholeness to the best of our ability in this broken world, that's an honorable thing and and a good thing to to to strive for. So yeah. Cool. So all that being said, yeah, I mean, if anyone out there is looking for help, escapethecagenow.com.

Mark Odland: 24:20

Zach and I provide counseling and coaching services where we can go deeper into these things in a more personalized way unique to your story. And we're always happy to do that free consultation over Zoom or or or phone if you wanna test the waters and just see if it's a good fit. And, if you're still listening, throw throw down a comment. We'd love to hear your thoughts on these things, and, and we're always grateful if you'd subscribe, hit that bell, help get us get the word out to more guys. So any closing thoughts, Zach?

Mark Odland: 24:48

Or we we

Zack Carter: 24:49

Yeah. Just doubling down on if you guys need help, just reach out to escapethecagenow.com, and we're taking we're still taking on clients and people who need coaching, whether it's counseling or coaching. And so if you need that help, please reach out either at that website or in the link below.

Mark Odland: 25:08

Perfect. Alright, Zach. Well, thanks so much for all the great information, and thanks everyone for listening. We'll talk to you soon.

Zack Carter: 25:14

Bye. Bye, everybody.