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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast,
Speaker 2:a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:We are home and we are safe. We have been home for a week now, actually, and been with the children. And it was pretty crazy because the husband had to leave for production the same day that we got home. And so in some ways, it was difficult because we were very exhausted from our trip. But, also, it was good to see the children and to be home and to stay put for a little while.
Speaker 1:It was also good to eat food and sleep and get organized. The hardest thing, of course, is knowing that we don't get to go back to the therapist and grieving her. But at the same time, we did follow through with, like, every piece of courage we could find and keep our appointments with the family therapist that we've already been seeing with the children. And it was really, really hard. It was really scary.
Speaker 1:But because we had been there already with the children, we were able to at least get inside, and at least we knew her, which is different than starting from scratch. Some listeners sent us some referrals for people in Kansas City, and that was interesting to at least have choices because I don't know that we've ever had choices before. But out of all the referrals people sent us, only one could also take our insurance where it would still be for free or have appointments as often as we need. And that one, when we called to make an appointment just to try and see how brave we were and if that was helpful, they wanted us first to have some sort of access appointment and see a physician and go through that process to be able to get the intake appointment. And so we told them we cannot do that.
Speaker 1:That's too much, and it's too hard. And, also, we don't want medication. And so we were not able to go that way. So for now, we've stuck with the plan of seeing the therapist who sees our children and our family already. We took the circle notebook with us and did not plan on giving it, but just to see how it felt because for the first time, we're not starting from the beginning.
Speaker 1:Just because we're starting with a new therapist, even though it's going to take time to trust her and for her to get to know us, we do at least know a lot, and we still get to keep everything we learned with our therapist from the beginning. I don't wanna say old therapist. I will always say previous therapist, maybe our favorite therapist. We miss her. But we get to keep all the progress we've made and all the things we learned.
Speaker 1:So whereas the first time we went to therapy because we were in crisis at school when we were young, And it took a while to figure out DID and to get the word for it and a diagnosis and help. And then after the parents died and we went back to therapy because we were anxious and not understanding and not everyone knew about the DID, And she's helped us be safe and stable and connect about the DID and understand it and get to know each other. So we may not trust the new lady so much or know her as well yet, but we do get to keep all the progress that we've made for ourselves, and that felt pretty good to realize even though it's still hard and still scary. And so we went, and our first appointment, she asked a little bit about our trip, which was both frustrating and funny because we don't really remember. The people who went on the trip are not the people who went to therapy.
Speaker 1:So that was hard. But it was at least a safe place to start, and we could talk about the husband and the children and things like that. So we've been the one time, and we're trying to follow through on being more present with the family and having therapy closer to home. Since now we travel so much, it's harder to be away from the family for therapy like we could do before. So we'll see how it goes, and we'll keep sharing.
Speaker 1:But I was really proud of us that we were able to go and that we did at least talk to her, including seeing some things we didn't wanna talk about yet. So we were able to set some boundaries for ourselves as much as anything, but also she respected them, and so that felt safer. The other thing I wanted to share is that when we were leaving our last Airbnb on the way home, they had a bookshelf where you could just take books. It just said free books, take one. And one of the books was about DID.
Speaker 1:And so I took it just because I was excited to find something about DID, except that it's so old. It says MPD for multiple personality disorder instead of DID. But I asked the therapist, our real therapist, our first therapist. I asked her if it was the same thing just to be sure, and she said, yes. It's the same thing, but a different name, an old name.
Speaker 1:And so some of the information in the book would also be old. But at the same time, if it felt safe, there might be useful information in it. And so we went ahead and took it, and we read it on the airplane. And so I'm gonna share some of the things from the book. The book is called uncovering the mystery of MPD, and there's a lot in it that is old or that was too much for us to be able to read, and we had to skip entire chapters and chunks.
Speaker 1:And there's also a lot in it that is very triggering because he gives lots of examples. The author does. And so we had to be careful reading it, but we read it with husband and a friend, sending quotes to them and sort of processing as we go. And when we had specific questions, we asked the therapist about them. So that was helpful, but it's definitely not a book that we would recommend you reading by yourself or a book that we could read all of.
Speaker 1:There were whole sections we had to just skip and ignore, but there were some parts that were helpful just in understanding about DID. So if you're able to discern the difference, it's interesting, but also it's old information, and a lot of it is very triggering, just so you know. I'm not gonna talk so much about the triggering parts, and I'm not gonna share anything about the parts that we skipped. But some of the things that were interesting, I'm going to read. So you might hear me turning pages or looking at the book, but that's why.
Speaker 1:One thing that was interesting that he put in the book is that there were he had what he called a four factor theory of the development of DID, like how it happens. He said the first piece is biological. And he says, quote, it is generally deemed that about twenty five percent of all children are born with the ability to dissociate if they need to. That was interesting. I didn't know that at all.
Speaker 1:And then factor two has to do with early childhood abuse. About ninety seven percent of MPD or DID patients have suffered serious abuse at an early age. Most of them have been abused sexually. They needed to use dissociation to cope with the abuse. That I kind of knew because we've talked about it in therapy, and they've talked about it in the interviews on the podcast.
Speaker 1:But I didn't realize, or maybe it was hard to hold on to the idea that that's what's behind the forgetting is the hard stuff, which is kind of where we are in therapy is needing to talk about the hard stuff. Factor three, he says, has to do with the continuing abuse and lack of nurture. The life circumstances have been dangerous and the children continue to suffer abuse over a long period of time. The home is not a safe place and the child needs to keep on using dissociation to deal with the continuing abuse. I hadn't thought about that piece, that part of what causes DID isn't that it's just a one time thing, but that things are too hard and stay too hard for a really long time.
Speaker 1:I also liked that it differentiated between abuse, even the ongoing abuse, and also the lack of nurture. Because part of what creates DID or part of what's so hard about the kind of abuse that survivors go through who have DID is that no one helps, and no one rescues them, and no one stops them, and all of the dynamics, like in shame theory that we've talked about in the podcast with misattunement and neglect and other factors that make it hard just because it never gets better and because there's nothing good that happens. So it's not just that bad things happen, but also that not enough good happens. And I think that's important to remember because sometimes we get confused why we're not doing better than we are or why we get confused about some things or why trust is so hard when we are able to even acknowledge some of the hard things and maybe work through a piece or two and put it behind us, so to speak, but consciously and aware of it. And yet because we didn't have positive interactions and good poured into us as children, there are a lot of things that we missed out on and just have never experienced.
Speaker 1:So for example, we didn't really know how to do friendship until we had a good friend who really stayed and helped teach us rather than jumping all in before we were ready and then punishing us when we couldn't do it right. Or like with the husband, how he's so very kind, but sometimes that feels scary because we're not used to people just being kind and not wanting something. Or any other kind of example you think where it's hard to trust people or feel safe just because you're not used to good things happening. And then he says factor four is about a particular kind of psychological structure that some people have, a high ability to fantasize and a high level of creativity. And so he says the only people who get DID are people who have that biological component, people who have severe abuse, people who are highly intelligent and creative, and people who have ongoing abuse with that neglect or lack of nurture.
Speaker 1:But that when all four factors happen, then DID can happen. So that was interesting just because it was sort of a different way of looking at the same things we've talked about. And I know that now in modern research and the interviews we've had, people know a lot more about the brain and how it works. But this was an interesting perspective just in understanding sort of the different pieces of what makes up DID. They also said in the book that practically all people with DID have both male and female alters, and I was glad to read that just because I didn't know.
Speaker 1:And so it made me feel a little less crazy and a little less silly just to know that that's part of what happens. I'm pretty sure we've talked about that in therapy, but it's pretty fuzzy on that. And so it just felt comforting somehow to see it in writing and that other systems have both male and female parts. It also talked about different parts having distinct traits, characteristics, and feelings. And it said that people who are on the outside, like the therapist or a spouse or a close friend, can learn to recognize them by facial expressions, vocabularies, and tone of voice.
Speaker 1:And I just had never thought about that from the outside, what it must look like. I think sometimes for me, I just sort of imagine that it's really different. Like, I forget that it's all one body. I forget that other people don't see them the way I see them. For me, they're as much in the room as my friend or the husband or the outside children.
Speaker 1:That's part of what feels crazy sometimes. But, also, the other thing is that sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between what's happening outside and what's happening inside. So if I start to get anxious about something or notice a trigger and I'm having a response because of a trigger, then even though I try to stay calm or if it's a new situation, like being with someone that is a friend but I've not really had a friend before, then sometimes I get stuck in understanding whether or not it's happening inside or outside. It feels like a dream or that I'm making it up or maybe I'm just imagining it. And so sometimes I don't know what has really happened or what just happened in my imagination or if I thought about telling the husband something or if I really told him.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I can't tell the difference. I don't know what that's called, but this is what made me think of it. He said in the book, though, that almost all people with DID can hear the voices of the others talking to each other and that that is not the same as psychosis, and it's not the same as hallucinations. So, again, that's probably the piece that makes me feel craziest. So to read in a book that it's not a crazy thing and there's a reason and explanation for it helps me feel better because I don't wanna be crazy, and I don't wanna be unwell, and I am trying hard.
Speaker 1:But so many times, it feels like it gets harder before it gets better. He talked about co consciousness and defined it as when one alter is out and the other alters are able to watch and listen. So that was interesting because I feel like we're starting to have that happen more and making progress in this area. The therapist really helped us with that over the last two or three years, and so that is starting to happen. The challenge with that happening is that it gets tricky because it sort of changes awareness.
Speaker 1:I don't know about other systems, but for us, the closer any of us get to co consciousness or the closer I get to co consciousness or being more aware of the others, then also the more aware I am of what's happening and what they know or what things are about. So sometimes it's like information or experiences are kind of flooding at me. Like, I don't mean in a triggering way like flashbacks, but and it can even be positive. But I feel like one thing that's really hard is that you can't just keep everything separate and also get closer. So the more that I get to know the others inside or the more I try to actually understand them, then also the more those walls come down.
Speaker 1:And so I start to lose less time and be more aware of what's happening even if it's not me. And sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's embarrassing, or sometimes it's okay, and other times it's scary. And I feel like maybe I'm to the point now where I've made so much progress that I sort of understand maybe I could make even a list of some of the things that were hard in the past that I need to talk about or work on or pieces that they know about that I don't remember, but I could label them as a theme. So, for example, just to keep things really easy, my mother was addicted to pain medications, and so that would make her even extra mean. And so that is one piece.
Speaker 1:Even if I don't have all the details of, I know that that's one of the pieces I need to work on. So I know that's one of the pieces I need to work on even if I don't know all the details of what's behind that door or what's behind what's in that drawer, in that file, or in that history of what that part of me remembers that I can't remember, I feel like at least I kind of have a layout now of what some of those things are. And that's new and in some ways scarier because now I kind of know what I'm having to face. But also at the same time, it feels better because I don't have to be anxious about not knowing anything or not knowing where I am or why I'm there. And so in some ways, it's getting better, and in some ways, it's getting harder.
Speaker 1:He said in the book that when we have a blank spot for where we can't explain or don't remember, that that is called losing time, which all of us with DID know that experience and that feeling. But he called it he said that that is amnesia. And I think maybe it seems silly, like, I'm not a stupid person, but I had not connected that that that's what amnesia is or that losing time was the same as amnesia or that that's the word for it. When you dissociate from remembering or whatever the words are, I don't I don't know the right words to say, but I didn't know that that counted as amnesia. Also, he defined dissociation specifically as the act of defending against pain.
Speaker 1:And when we dissociate, that pain is immediately and completely forgotten. And so it's a defense, I guess, from how much it hurts either physically or emotionally, and that's a good thing for surviving but is not helpful for now time because other parts still remember those, and we have to go back and address it and process it in some way so that those parts don't have to hold them by themselves and because we're not still in what happened in memory time. So, see, I feel like I'm understanding things a lot more and making progress in getting how it works, and the book was interesting in that way, in that context. But, again, there was a lot that I had to skip or couldn't read at all. He said, One thing we know about dissociation is that it is used only when the pain has been extreme, and it usually begins in preschool years.
Speaker 1:In order for dissociation to become a preferred coping style, the pain has to start that early and dissociation has to be used often enough to become a habit. So I had not thought at all about DID being a habit or dissociating being a habit, And so since I read that just in the last week, I've been trying to notice more of when I feel sort of spacey or fuzzy or when that's triggered or being aware of when I'm dissociating, and sometimes I can't. But I have been able to parent differently. I don't know if I can keep doing it, but I feel like I have been more present with the children. And when I get overwhelmed, I've been more often able to just think to myself, I'm overwhelmed right now because there's six children and just one of me, which is kind of funny because there's not one of me, but there is.
Speaker 1:And I can only help one child at a time, or I can only do this much today even though there's so much work to do or something. But I don't have to lose time, and I've even cooked dinner once or twice, maybe twice, which is new for me because what I understand now is that m has been the one who mothered my children for things like being overwhelmed or busy with the work of parenting. So I can snuggle with them and feel safe and calm and grounded. But when they have to do homework or there's appointments or IEPs at school or chores in the evening after school and cooking dinner and trying to get them to bed on time and all of that, I lose a lot of time then. But being able to say to her, I really want to stay present, and I want to be kind and gentle with the children and work together on parenting them, I'm able to be more aware of it.
Speaker 1:And so even though I know that she's helping me because there are things I can do now that I couldn't do before, like I just realized how to make stew, and I didn't know that I knew how to make stew. But it just sort of came to me as I was trying to figure out what to feed the children. And the children loved it, and it was really good. And it just sort of happened so that I know that she was there, but I was still there. I didn't lose time because she was there.
Speaker 1:And, also, the children had a better evening because I could do all of those work of parenting kinds of things, but still be nurturing and connected and soft with them. And it's really helped a lot the quality of life in our family. So recognizing sometimes when things get challenging or hard, but being able to stay present and cope with it and know why I'm having a hard time. And also, even though I don't know all of the triggers for all of the parts of me, I know now what to me feels like I have been triggered. So I don't always know what the trigger is or who it connects with.
Speaker 1:I need to keep working to make progress there, and that's why we need to stay in therapy. But I do most of the time. Now I'm able to know, oh, I can stop and think, oh, I think I've been triggered because I'm feeling this, like feeling fuzzy or feeling a panic or feeling not solid, disconnected from the world around me, and being able to calm my myself down or do some slow deep breathing like the therapist taught me, or get myself grounded in some way, then I can do a lot better and stay longer, and I don't always have to switch. Sometimes switching still happen well, a lot of times switching still happens, but we're doing better. And sometimes even when there's still a switch, I can still keep watching, which is different than before.
Speaker 1:And so I don't have it down yet perfectly, and I'm not good at it yet, but I feel like that's significant and making progress. There's a whole lot in this book about SRA, and I just had to skip that. There was a quote from a survivor that said about therapy, It gets worse because first there's the childhood terror, and then there's the humiliation because I survived. And so he talks about how just getting treatment doesn't make life better because actually therapy can get harder before it feels better because you have to talk about the hard stuff. He talks about ways that other personalities or what he calls in the book alter alternate personalities, so that's where alters come from, which I didn't know that that's where alters come from.
Speaker 1:But he said there's different ways. One is that when an event is traumatic enough to cause a dissociation, a new personality or personality fragment is formed to go through the experience. It is a protective barrier that forms which blocks all information about the traumatic event. And then it said another way is modeling after an important person, like in a way of functioning, which kind of made me think of what they call now in research ANPs. And then the third time alters can be created when people have learned to use dissociation as a preferred method of coping, like habit.
Speaker 1:They talked about earlier how dissociation can be a habit. Then in new life situations, it can be automatically created to fit what's happening. And so I know that's happened to us before that we had new alters created because of a change in the life experiences or what was going on, like creating someone new just to be married when we got married. This part was interesting. He talked about competing for time, He said personalities often compete for time in order to accomplish their separate tasks, and the body can get exhausted.
Speaker 1:This is one reason multiples so commonly have sleep difficulties. Not only do many alters wait until bedtime for their turn to pursue their agendas, but when sleep finally does come, some of the alters also have nightmares, and the little sleep they do get is not restful at all. I know that's one issue that we have, so I was amazed to see that in print that someone knew and understood what that was about because we get very little sleep with everyone wanting to do their own thing. And then when we do sleep, we have really bad nightmares. We can use a watch or other apps to help track our sleep so that we can know how much sleep we got or not.
Speaker 1:And sometimes if someone is up, then the husband knows. But it can be really hard. Just bedtime is hard and sleep is hard. We have the bear that we sleep with, but that belongs to the therapist. It's from her office.
Speaker 1:And so we probably need to be giving that back and mail it back. And that's just a hard thing we've not been able to tackle yet. He also talks a lot in the book about mapping. So if you want different ideas of making maps for your altars or for your system, he gives some ideas in his book if you are interested in different ideas for mapping. I know that the therapist well, we miss her.
Speaker 1:I know that she has a map that somebody made some kind of map, but I don't really understand it, and we don't look at it too often. He talked about keeping it in the journal, so maybe we should do that. But, also, I don't know about the journal since we are not sending notebooks to the therapist anymore since we have a new one, so I don't know how that's gonna work. I do know that since we stopped journaling, it's been a lot more disoriented. I have been a lot more disoriented because I don't have the journal to reference.
Speaker 1:So I think we're gonna have to find a way that we can keep journaling even if it's not for the new therapist, even if we don't use it in the same way, and we go back and talk about our old journals that we need to get back from the other therapist. But I don't I don't know how we're gonna solve that yet. There were also some quotes about how therapy is just hard that I wanted to share because they were kind of amazing. One said, Eventually, I had to let go of all that. Therapy is inevitably a struggle.
Speaker 1:Pain is a part of life. You must actually encounter and experience the pain that has been caused in your own life before healing can set in. And then he he talks about being careful not to minimize your feelings. Nobody has believed how bad things were. People have always stopped the traumatized alters from sharing their story.
Speaker 1:They have repeatedly heard things like, 'If you do this or that, things will get better.' I believe that but instead, you could say, 'I believe the things you're telling me. I want to hear everything you have to say. Please don't hold back. Let me hear about the things that other people don't want to hear from you. The job you probably have had to do was to absorb the most terrible experiences, but because you did your job well, the others were allowed to stay healthy.
Speaker 1:You coped with the hard feelings so they wouldn't have to. That's been a thankless job. I know also the therapist, our first therapist, or our the other therapist, ugh, we just miss her. I'm sorry. I don't know how to say it.
Speaker 1:We're just still adjusting. It's been three months since we've seen her, which is too long, but I know we need to do the new therapist and face things and try to be present in our family. So I'm trying, but it's really, really emotional and really, really difficult. But I know one thing that she has always said from the beginning was that if we were able to live it, she is able to listen to it. And so that's one way she has reassured us when we were struggling.
Speaker 1:He said, every effect has a cause. It takes more time to find the cause for some effects than it does for others. Every feeling is real. Minds do not just make up feelings for no reason. Feelings result from real events, and your mind is working hard to find out about those events.
Speaker 1:It is important for us to spend enough time together to get to know about your feelings and where they got started. Every feeling has a history, and we need to discover where and when the feelings that bother you these days appeared in your past, and it will take a little time. He also explained about flashbacks. He said, When the child alters feel safe enough, they begin to share all the components of their memories with the others. That is what a flashback is.
Speaker 1:The young victims are letting you know about the thoughts, feelings, and bodily experiences they went through during those bad traumas. Unfortunately for the rest of you, you are destined to learn about the things they have kept to themselves all these years. The traumas were locked up in their memory banks and now you will have to share the memories. That is how it works. But there is a benefit for the traumatized alter.
Speaker 1:Because you are sharing the pain, her pain will be a little easier to bear. She has been suffering all these years, and now you are helping her to get through suffering by letting her share the memory with you. It always seems unreal at first when a flashback comes. As you have learned, the events really did happen to a different personality. So you are right when you say they are not your memories.
Speaker 1:The alters who have these experiences will need the understanding and acceptance of the other alters in order to receive healing. He said, When safety is maintained, therapy can successfully address the issues that underlie the dissociative disorder, the traumatic memories wherever they appear in the client's life history, and the amnesia which maintains the dividedness. So the more we help each other and listen and learn their stories, even though it's super hard and really, really difficult, the more present we all are, the more oriented we all are, and the more aware we all are. And that brings us together in being able to understand even the good things that are in the present. And it's fascinating to me because our life has been so hard for so long.
Speaker 1:And I think this is maybe the first year where there was so much good, and we have new friends, and we have a good relationship with the husband, but I'm more aware of it. And I'm more present in participating with the children, and we're working again and trying to provide for ourselves and our family. And all of these are big, big things that I think are evidence of our progress and our healing and the good work we've done with the therapist. And so it's another reason that it's scary to leave her because I know that's working. And so it's hard to leave her or let go of that.
Speaker 1:I don't want to mess it up or sabotage it or make things more difficult, but it's also a natural time of transition. And so trying to sort of trust that process and the prompting about it and what that means for our family and being aware of their needs too, which I wouldn't be so aware of if we were still lost in ourselves, kind of, so to speak. He talked about things that help, like getting accurate information about the system and accurate information into the system, like about how DID works, and about encouraging co consciousness and group efforts. And then he talked about journaling and artwork as well, both of which have helped us a lot. And then one of the quotes we sent to the therapist to ask her if it was true, our other therapist, before the new one, we asked her this quote from the book.
Speaker 1:He said, There was a reason for the amnesia. There is always a reason, and it is never a nice one. The pain was bad enough you needed the most effective protection available, dissociation. But after you find it, what's behind the amnesia, then you do what you have to do, acknowledge it as fully as possible without minimization. So that's obviously the hard part and sort of the road we're about to take into therapy of really talking about things more directly.
Speaker 1:And I've thought a lot about what that means about minimization. And for example, when I say we need to talk about the hard things, that's minimizing a little bit because it was hard. That's true. But really what we need to talk about is the abuse, And we need to call it out as abuse and say the words and share about what happened and ask for help in dealing with it. And that help will come from the new therapist, but also the husband and also our friends and also other survivors from group or people who understand, like you listening.
Speaker 1:And so what's different is this time we're not alone, and this time, instead of a lack of good or a lack of nurture, there's actually good being poured into us from all over and all around us. And that's what healing is, And that's where connection comes to help us be strong enough to do the hard things and talk about the abuse even. Even just saying the word that there was abuse is kind of a big deal. And maybe is the start to a whole new kind of healing, even though it's also maybe going to be some of the hardest.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community @www.systemsbeat.com. We'll see you there.