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On this episode of Behind The Mission, we feature a conversation with retired Army Colonel Sean Ryan, Director of Communications for Army Emergency Relief, the Army’s only nonprofit organization serving active duty Soldiers, retirees and their families.
Because fewer than 7% of Americans have served in uniform, most Americans are unfamiliar with military service and culture. As a result, members of the military and Veteran community are at greater risk for disconnection and lack of belonging with the civilian community. PsychArmor’s mission is to bridge the military-civilian divide by educating and training a Nation. Each week, Duane France, a combat Veteran and Clinical Mental Health Counselor, will dig deep into the stories “Behind The Mission” - and create a conversation with organizations and leaders on how they are utilizing their expertise and networks to support the military-connected community.
Welcome to Episode 85 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.
Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations.
On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with retired Army Colonel Sean Ryan, Director of Communications for Army Emergency Relief, the Army's only nonprofit organization serving active duty soldiers, retirees, and their families. Sean retired from the military after nearly 30 years and worked extensively in the public affairs and international communications field during his time in the military.
You can find out more about Sean by checking out his bio on our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with him and come back afterward to talk about some of the key points.
DUANE: So Sean, I, as a retired Army non-commission officer, I'm certainly familiar with Army Emergency Relief. Of course, it helped out a number of my soldiers. And even I used it as a young soldier. Before we get into AER and what it is though, I'm interested in hearing how you became involved with the organization after your own military service.
SEAN: My first interaction, I was a young, private first class, stationed in Germany, without a clue in the world, what was going on. I thought I was going to desert storm. They told me don't unpack my bags, but as it turned out, they were coming back. So I never made it over there.
And then I found myself working in a signal battalion in Carl Schurz Kaserne, Germany. I had a very sick mother-in-law. As a young E three new in the Army, I did not have the funds to go back home bcause obviously back then the prices were very high as well over a thousand dollars if I recall. And so, uh, someone suggested I go to Army Emergency Relief, which I did, and they proceeded to help me very quickly with a zero interest loan, which in turn I paid back, I think 12 months at a hundred dollars a month, that was within my budget. And, I flew home and we took care of everything and it all worked great. And so from that time on, I always had a very high opinion of Army Emergency Relief. And then I started giving myself, through allotments, through my time of the service.
I then became a Lieutenant at Fort Riley, Kansas, and one of my additional duties was Army Emergency Relief Officer called an arrow now. And so I actually worked part of the campaign for two different cycles and we'd get, soldiers to help donate. And so again, I always had a very high opinion of Army Emergency Relief.
Never knowing that I would later work for them. Of course, that was far from my mind and 20 years earlier. And then I had a boss that I worked with at human resources command when it was still on Alexandria, Virginia, and he'd give me a call about four or five years ago but I was still fully vested into the United States Army.
And I wasn't planning on retiring anytime soon, but he said, hey, we have an opportunity. And I just said, hey, thanks, sir. Uh, keep me in mind. And, If we ever cross paths again and it connects, that'd be great. If not, we're still close to this day. And then lo and behold, uh, I retired and, I just kind of planned on, hanging out for a while and enjoying life.
But I had already taken about three months of my leave of vacation time. And so I was twiddling my thumbs at home and I got a call and asked me if I was interested and. again, I knew the organization already. I knew it was a very good organization. And then I knew that he had been there, probably close to 13 years or so at the time.
And so I highly respected him and I knew if he worked for that organization for that long, then it has to be a really good organization. And so I applied and I ended up getting the position as a Director of Marketing Communications and, it couldn't have worked out any better and I'm very proud to be a member of Army Emergency Relief.
DUANE: Yeah, like you said, it has a very good reputation. Like you, I was in Germany at that point when I needed emergency relief. My wife and I, we were stationed overseas. Our daughter, our first child was probably two or three months old and my grandfather passed away, a world war II Veteran.
And while we had the leave, we didn't have the means to go back and, and honor him and support our family and things like that. And so same thing, you know, somebody said, hey, check out AER. And it was again, they were able to help me out. In somehow it seems to inevitably be needs based when those young soldiers or young NCOs or even young officers who might need some support, AER has always been there for soldiers in the Army.
SEAN: Yes, we're actually celebrating our 80th year. So it started in 1942 during World War II. And we've been going strong ever since and, you know, through hard times and rough times, but AER has always been there for soldiers, soldiers helping soldiers, for 80 years. So it's a great organization.
Matter of fact, we just received the charity navigator top rating seventh year in a row, for charities, which is among the top 10. Army Emergency Relief gives back 90 cents to the dollar, back into the program to support soldiers and their families. And it's very high. If you look into a lot of other charities that do great work, but, very few can contribute that much, to the organization and to help out soldiers. Yeah, it's been a fantastic move for me. And like I said, I'm very proud to be part of the team.
DUANE: And as you mentioned, 80 years, it's been around a long time. It's similar to other service related support organizations like the Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society, the Air Force Aid Society. Again, the idea is sort of like the AER is always there to help people out. But if people may not be familiar with the service relief societies, what can you tell 'em about AER.
SEAN: It got started, like I said, 80 years ago. And back then the soldiers were going off to war and, they were really unprotected because a lot of 'em were landowners or, even worked the fields and things like that. And then all of a sudden, the breadwinner, the family just takes off.
For, one to four years, which is a very long time. And so they were left unprotected, families had to be taken care of, and that's kind of where General Marshall stepped in with the secretary of war, Henry Stimson. And, they want to relieve undue stress, financial stress on the workforce of the soldiers.
And that's how it came to be. And that's really our mission today. It still stands that, we serve the enduring priorities of the soldiers and help them relieve financial stress. So since AER has provided, $2 billion to nearly 4 million soldiers, including 1 billion since 9/11.
And of course, if I haven't mentioned it's zero interest loans, grants, and we also do scholarships to about the tune of $12 million a year. So, I think we do a lot for the soldiers and their families, and there's very few times where we cannot support a soldier.
DUANE: But a lot of people don't realize that AER, as an organization it's separate from the Army, right? It's not a Department of Defense program. It's a nonprofit, as you were talking about, the charity navigator thing, that a lot of people think that, you know, there's an AER office on every post, but it's not an army program. It's a separate organization.
SEAN: It is. And now we do fall under the Army organization as we are the Army's, only official nonprofit. So we're part of theAarmy, but then officially, we're not so we're in a different category, but we're 100% in a nonprofit. But a lot of, Army leaders sit on our board. We have the SAR major of the Army that sits on our board.We have the chief of staff, the vice chief of staff, and a lot of commanders throughout the Army. So we're very well connected with the army and we work very closely with, all the active duty and reserve, officers and NCOs.
DUANE: And not only just in the army and, as I mentioned a little bit before the Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society, the Air Force Aid Society, all of the branches have something similar to this. But you also work closely with the sister service relief.
SEAN: So.We do. And I did not know that when I came in, because a lot of things have changed and AER has done a really good job at changing with the time. So we work with our fellow services. We actually have a map you can put your address in, on our AER website and it'll tell you how far away you are from, one of the relief agencies, mainly the army, but if you walk into an Army Relief Society office, even if your Navy, Air Force or Marines, Coast Guard, they can help you out and they can transfer all your paperwork to that sister service to get every soldier, Airman sailor, Marine, whatever taken care of. So it's really great. And we have good collaborations. There's a lot of events where we all go together. Matter of fact, we all set up booths at, this year's Wells Fargo golf tournament that was, in Maryland this year. So it was great to kind of hang out with other relief societies and brainstorm with them on how best we can serve, our fellow military Veterans and, active duty folks.
DUANE: And as you mentioned, I think that especially the changing face of the military, joint service positions. You know, you and I are here in, Colorado Springs, which is an army and air force town, but we got some CG's right. There's some Navy, there's some Marine Corps folks who are here.
But, if you and I went to San Diego, I don't know any army posts in San Diego, right? So there are different there's joint service organizations where a soldier who may be stationed in Norfolk, for example, or Pensacola, Florida might be able to get some support even if there isn't an army emergency relief office there.
SEAN: No, it's true. And like I said, it's dynamic that all of these relief societies work together and can help anyone out at any time. So that, really goes to show that, the military tries to take care of its own. And I think does an outstanding job in doing that.
DUANE: Now as long as AER has been around, obviously the needs have changed. Since you and I came in, right, you know, in the nineties. But especially the needs of service members and their families today are very, very different than they were even 15 years ago. The beginning of the global war on terror, much less 20 or 30 years ago.
How has AER adapted to the changing needs of the service members and families today?
SEAN: Yeah, like you mentioned, we both were helped out with plane tickets for emergency purposes. And of course we have emergency in the name, but I can tell you, we have over 30 different categories and no category is set. If someone comes up with something different we always try to look out for them as well. But I can tell you, we have rent initial deposit on rent.
We can help with mortgages, temporary lodging. We do PCs, food utilities, medical, we do some dental care for dependence. One thing that we do is like cranial helmets of say Tricare or whatever medical insurance, service members have, if they don't quite cover all those costs, AER will cover those costs for army folks.
And then of course, if you something happens to your car, that's one of our most used things is probably the top two requested is POV repairs and maintenance. If something happens to your car, you can go in, go to AER you can actually go to your commander or first ARN as well.
They're authorized what we call the quick assist program, where they can authorize up to basically $2,000 on the spot. And then they'll go through the Army Emergency Relief office and they'll do all that paperwork, but you can get that really quick. But we'll help with monthly vehicle payments, things of that nature.
Some of the new categories that we just started, had been really great too. I mean, we help with the floods, the hurricanes things, any type of disaster assistance, AER helps with as well. And then of course we can do minor home repairs, working with deductibles of say your roof blows off or something like that up to $5,000.
So there's a lot of things besides just emergency travel and funeral expenses and things like that Army Emergency Relief helps that. So it's been really great working with them. And like I said, there's very few times where we have to tell someone, you know, what we just can't help that has happened.
I think we probably helped 40,000 soldiers and families a year. And I think we've had to say no five times out of40,000, which, run the numbers. That's pretty phenomenal in my book. And it's probably just because they just didn't qualify or there's some they're in some weird category that they just didn't fit into where we could help. And they, there's probably another nonprofit out there that can help them, but is very seldom that happens with us.
DUANE:And so in I think that, everybody thinks that AER is the one that, you write the checks, right? You give the money, but it's more than just that as you were just talking about. Again, you and I both know that the military is not a money-making organization for the individuals who serve.
It's the budgets can be tight. And we've talked often, even on the show about food insecurity and things like that, the statistics of we're all one emergency away from being in serious financial hardship. And that's what you're talking about. If somebody has a car that breaks down, if that's the only vehicle that maybe a young service member's family has, their spouse can't get to work, they can't get the children to childcare.
It's more than just paying to get that car fixed. It's actually supporting that family to get them through hard.
SEAN: And one thing we're trying to have them avoid is what we call going outside the gates. And you can drive outside any military post. It doesn't have to be Army. And you'll see, the payday type loan folks. And listen, we live in America. There's nothing wrong with having those businesses.
However, you just have to know going into that. The rate is very high, where AER offers zero interest loans versus, you know, they may offer 35% across the street and, oh, by the way, if you don't pay in two weeks, it, compounds your $500 loan may turn into a thousand dollars loan within, a week or two. That's one of the reasons we exist as well. And we're just trying to get, soldiers to be smart about their money and, the army. This is a little side note, but the army does offer financial assistance as well, to where a soldier can come in and they can get some financial help on how to do budgets and things like that. It's under the MWR and ACS programs. But I can tell you, one program that we just started recently was the financial literacy program. And basically soldiers can go online and take, like a 45 minute class and then they can take a test and if they have an AER alone, if you're E four and below.
It's $200 off your loan and it's E five and above, it's a hundred dollars off your loan once you pass the test. And so there's little things like that. We're just trying to help with financial literacy and we just want soldiers to be smart. You know, it's a different, timeframe and, it's, every generation is different. In our generation, you know our squad leaders and BTO leaders knew a lot about us. Now, I think the army is a little more secretive and people are like, Hey, I don't want everyone knowing my business, because times have changed and that's fine too. We're not always trying to get into people's business, but we just want them to know there's a place to go if they've run into financial difficulty. And so probably one of the worst things that we hear is, oh, Army Emergency Relief, wish we knew about it. And I can tell you one of the issues that we've had in the last 20 years, it's different from when you and I had served is that normally, we would have a briefing to soldiers every six months or every 12 months, but you know, we've been 20 years worth of war and you know what, with everyone deploying that's one of those things that gets put on the side, hey, am I gonna go to my pre-deployment brief? Or am I gonna go to Army Emergency Relief brief? Come on, you're gonna go to the deployment brief cuz that's just, it makes sense cuz that's what you're doing. A lot of the information that we used to get out to the soldiers information stuff, it's kind of gotten lost inthe last 20 years. So that's one of the things that we're trying to, have come back again is making soldiers aware. So it's not a hundred percent participation as far as them giving.
It's a hundred percent of them knowing that we exist and we're here for them. iI's literally soldiers helping soldiers, to your fellow battle warriors on your left and your right, we want them to use as us, because that's what, that's our main goal in life. Our main mission is to help them out.
DUANE: And not just the soldiers themselves, the service member, but the soldiers for the army emergency really, but the families as well. There's scholarships that AER provides not just to, to soldiers, but also to family members.
SEAN: So we have two different types of scholarships. One is the Major General James Ursano Scholarship. And, we probably do over 2000 scholarships a year. And we also have the Mrs. Patty Shinseki Scholarship as well. And that's for army spouses and combined, we did $12 million in scholarships last year.
So that's a pretty big number right there, for, you know, Army Emergency Relief so we're there to help the families out. And, we're hoping they use us. I can tell you one thing that happened during COVID. A lot of folks quit going to school. So we saw the numbers drop, and it's US wide is because one, a lot of jobs opened up and two people just didn't wanna go back to school, because of COVID so we're republishing all that information.
And we're hoping that the families and the spouses, sign back up to use the scholarships, they can get a scholarship for every semester. They just have to apply each semester to get that. So we have army spouses that literally received scholarships, their entire college career to help them out to as well asthe children of army soldiers as well. And I talked about, one thing that we're also doing as far as new categories is we're partnering again with National Military Family Association for childcare. We understand that childcare is very expensive now and during COVID of course, a lot of places shut down and we saw some soldiers had to bring in, private care, which maybe tripled the cost. So we're partnering again with them starting in September. This is our third year now. Last year, we gave out over a million dollars, just in childcare expenses. We've earmarked $600,000, starting in September for families to apply for childcare. So it's about $3,000 for each army spouse, if they apply and get accepted to that. And of course it's needs based, but we're hoping that, a lot of people apply for that.
DUANE: And see, and I think that's another great example of that wasn't happening 30 years. Right. I mean, it was, and, and again, not to beat the old soldier horse, but that old idea in the eighties and nineties of the military wanted you to have a family that would've issued you one. Recognizing now that the support of the military family, is supporting the soldier, which is ultimately supporting the mission like you said.
SEAN: And, um, we talked about categories. I did wanna throw in a couple other newer ones too, cuz again, back when you know, we were serving they didn't do this or no one did this, it wasn't just AER. But one thing that we noticed was a lot of soldiers were leaving their pets behind, especially if you're going overseas, depending on where you go overseas, sometimes it's expensive to ship.
And then they might say, hey, we need a quarantine, your pet for 45 days or something like that. Plus they'll they might charge you a thousand dollars to ship your dog over. So we did start the pet assistance program as well. And so now soldiers can apply for the pet assistance and we will help pay to get their pets overseas because we understand pets are part of the family and, we don't wanna separate any family members.
And then the second one that we started just last year is called the career skills program. And the career skills program is basically if a soldier is getting ready to leave the army, they can do an in if they find an intern somewhere and the army has a lot of different intern programs that you can sign up for.
If they get accepted into the Army's career skills program that we support, they can go do an internship for their last six months or a trade school as well. And AER will help pay the cost of, new uniforms or maybe it's, cost for traveling, things of that nature. Depending on where you're stationed, you can get it anywhere from 500 to a thousand to $1,500 to help you with your transition.
So far, we've had over 1200 cases. Distribute almost a million dollars of, we originally earmarked, $4 million. And, a lot of folks, as you said, have been taken advantage of it, E four S and E fives have probably signed up for about half of the slot so far. So we're hoping more people take advantage of that.
But again, these are some of the programs that we're coming up with, or we're seeing that, hey, we need help here. And we're trying to provide that to service members rather than they just get outta the army. And hey, hope you got a job after you're done because we want them to represent the army after they get out as well and say, hey, listen, it. Army really took care of me. I was able to do an internship for six months before I left the army. And then that helped me land a job and we don't keep the statistics, but the army does. And it's a very high, higher rate for those folks that go out and, they do an intern and then the company or a different company will hire them.
I think it's over 90%, I believe last I heard. And so that's pretty good stats right there. Cuz what we don't wanna do is have a soldier get outta the service and one, they don't go to college or two, they don't have a job. And now they're on unemployment things of that nature. So we see that where that's the problem.
And so AER is doing, the best we can to help. And one thing I did wanna mention also is that, I look at Army Emergency Relief as being a bridge. We're never there to fully pay everything for the soldiers and their families, but we're definitely an amazing bridge that we can help them, solve some of their financial problems that they're having.
So that's kind of how we look at it as well as, hey, we're here to help. And, like I said, we've helped over 20,000 soldiers and families this year alone. So we're on to have a very big year. I think we're looking now back at 2019 numbers, we're catching back up to where we were, minus the two years of COVID.
So it's great for us because that's what the money is earmarked for. And then lastly, I'd like to say also that we couldn't do this without the help of soldiers donations, outside organizations. And that wasn't until two years ago where we actually even asked outside organizations to help with our mission.
But now, with the financial literacy program, I mentioned AUSA, donated a million dollars to that cause so that's great for us because we can earmark other funds for different things. And that's just for financial literacy. So we're getting a lot of corporations like USAA on board and they're helping, and they can really streamline the process on where they want the money to best help the soldiers.
DUANE: You know, I think that's really great, for an organization that's been around as long as AER has, for it to continue to be relevant, it needs to adapt, it needs to meet the adapting needs. And like you said, when I got out in 2014, I think that was maybe just the beginning of the career skills program.
Like I didn't know about it. And so this is something that the Army and the services themselves have really adapted in recognizing that supporting service members through the transition. Honestly, it's a national security issue, because they get out and they say that the military is a very good career for young people to choose.So it's great to hear that a AER makes that adaptation, not just for the needs of the individual, but also to meet the emerging needs of the.
SEAN: And you can see with the economy probably the last year. If you invested money, a lot of people were looking pretty good, probably three years ago before COVID and then it came back a while and then it just completely tanked. So you have to build up that nest egg, to help not only yourself, but in an organization like ours to help thousands and thousands of service members. You have to have that nest egg and you have to continue to find different ways, to receive contributions as well. Cuz we're fully on board with the fact that now a lot of things are done on your phone. There's GoFundMe pages and things like that. It's not the old school to where, hey, fill this out in triple kit and doing allotment, soldiers don't do that anymore.
If you have kids, mine are older, they do everything on their phone. If we go out to eat, there's a QR code and you scan it with your phone. They don't even give you menus at a lot of places nowadays. So we're recognizing that and we're trying to adapt as well to where a lot of the information that we're putting out is now has QR codes.
We're working with Venmo and other companies to where, hey, if you wanna contribute, just scan this QR code and you can do it on your phone, even if $5 or $10 or your coffee for the day or whatever program we have. And then another way I wanna give definitely a shout out to AFRS. Now AER is at AFRS to include the air force society as well. So if you go to the PX on post and you buy something, it'll ask you, would you like to donate to either army emergency relief or the air force relief society and soldiers and airmen can choose to do that as well. So that's helped out greatly, because listen, we understand a lot of people don't wanna do allotments anymore.
And like I said, a lot of it is a hundred percent we just want, soldiers in their families to know about us. We just wanna know, hey, it's there if you need it. And if you'd like to contribute great, but we just want you to be aware of our programs and what we have to offer.
DUANE: It's been really great to be able to share what AER is doing. If folks wanted to find out more about AER and sort of how to get involved, how to support, if they wanted to do that, how can they find more?
SEAN: Probably going to our website is the best way to do that. So there's the long way. And there's a short way. It's, ww.armyemergencyrelief.org. So that's probably the fastest and best way to find out information on what we have to offer in the different categories.
DUANE:You know, that's amazing. It was great to hear this many years later, right. You know, AER helped out me and my family, as I mentioned, helped out a number of my soldiers. I always said, if there were, and usually it was things like emergency travel and stuff like that, AER was always something that I, as a leader recommended that soldiers go to, like you said, to avoid payday loan situations. So it's great to hear that AER is still growing strong and love to hear that it's gonna continue to go strong. Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
SEAN: No. Thanks so much. And one thing I'll leave you with is, soldiers don't have to go through their chain of command if they don't want to, they can go straight to an Army Emergency Relief office and they will take care of you right then and there. So I know that sometimes there's a stigma with people don't want ask for help. And our saying is asking for help is a strength. It's not a weakness, so we encourage all soldiers to, to get help. However they can, but please come to us first. So thanks so much for having.
DUANE:Absolutely.
Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom training options for organizations.
If like me, you spent any time in the army, you've likely heard about Army Emergency Relief. And if you were associated with the other branches of service than the Navy Marine Corps Relief Society and the Air Force Aid Society. As I reflected on my conversation with Sean, however, I realized that he was right. In my mind, AER was something that I thought of early to mid career. And as it became 2010 or later, I don't recall hearing much about it again, as Sean alluded to it almost became like, wow, I didn't realize army emergency relief was still around.
The insight into how the deployment cycle and the operational tempo caused leaders to decide what briefings to hold or what topics to focus on might be an important one. There's only so much time to do so much stuff. And some things get pushed farther down the list. Ironically, however, the frequent deployment cycle and the stress of life in the military in the past 20 years, likely cause more situations where service members found themselves in financial distress. And not knowing about AER, but still having the financial challenges needed to do things like access, payday loans, like Sean was referring to.
The key point here is that if there is a need, there's likely an organization out there that can meet that need, it just takes some looking. And if the solution comes at a cost or seems to be more burdensome in the long run than someone out there has probably tried to solve the problem.
The other point that I'd like to make is how much I appreciate that AER has adapted to the shifting needs of the military. Like Sean and I both said the quote unquote old way of using AER was to buy plane tickets for emergencies or to support someone in a true big event. But the big emergencies are only part of the chaos of military life. Again, as we've talked before on other episodes, there are a number of different things that contribute to financial instability and service members. Rising housing costs, outpace housing, allowance, availability, and cost of childcare, spouse, unemployment, and underemployment. All of these things create a financial burden on the service member and their family. Add to that the very real fact that very often, there's not a lot of financial literacy in service members.
Even as a young sergeant in the late nineties, it was my squad leader who pointed out to me that the interest rate that I was paying on my auto loan was way if my monthly insurance premiums were higher than my car note, then there was something wrong. Even outside of those kinds of things as a young soldier, I would often choose to spend money on what I wanted rather than what I needed. And if I find myself in a bind, then look around for help/
But AER recognizes that as well, supporting soldiers in their case is not just about providing a no-cost loan that solves the immediate problem, but also works in coordination with other organizations to help serve the long-term problems. This is another great example of an organization that addresses a wide host of needs in a very particular way, but is also part of a service ecosystem that has organizations that addresses those needs in different ways. In the military and Veteran support space, we often talk about silos, but the way that it could be and should be is a network of organizations that focus on what they do really, really well and are connected to other organizations that do what those other organizations do really, really well. And helping those in need to navigate between them. So I hope you appreciated my conversation with Sean. If you did let us know by dropping a review or sending us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We would appreciate knowing that you're listening, what you think and what you would like to hear about in future episodes.
For this week’s PsychArmor Resource of the Week, I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor course, Budgeting and Debt Management. As you may know, Psycharmor provides a number of different courses related to financial literacy and this course provides learners with steps to help them budget accordingly and manage debt as they progress toward financial wellness. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.