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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: You've been given that team leader job and you're excited to get started, but sometimes things aren't quite as simple as you might hope. In this week's, we, not me, we talk with adaptive organization's, coach Jon Barnes about some scenarios that can make life hard for a new team leader and share practical ways to avoid the traps.
[00:00:21] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:28] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:30] Dan: And today we are talking about leadership transitions, which will be so interesting, I think. And what, so if you look back in your. Star studied career. What, um, have you had any, you, well, what, what was your first move into sort of lead team leadership?
[00:00:48] Pia: I remember I was sort of probably in my late twenties and I had a sort of like a head of department job. And it was a new, it was a school that I was in and the, the job was, unfortunately, the other person that I was leading had gone for the job and was probably about, I dunno, 25 years older than me. And quite as we were call in England, quite an eccentric character. So she was not prepared to listen to a thing I said had zero, zero interest and undermined me at every, every opportunity. It, yeah, it was really interesting. That was my very first leadership experience. But the best intentions, but gosh, it wore you down, Really, it was exhausting.
[00:01:36] Dan: Yeah. What impact did that have on you?
[00:01:38] Pia: Well, I lasted four or five years, gave it my best shot, and then had had enough. But I think we, we then ended up, there was just moments when we had to coexist. I tried every single strategy that I possibly had, and I learned a lot about myself and about resilience and where you turn to, but when you're undermined to parents and you're undermined to kids, it was just very frustrating. So I think it made me realize that it was a pitfall. I think we'll talk about this when, when we're with Jon, but going in with your eyes wide open when you go for a Jon, don't be sold, sold the river.
[00:02:15] Dan: It's sort of the, um, that moment when you get what you want, but then there's, you realize you've been handed a, in some, some cases, something of a poison chalice. You think, great, I'm here, but actually there are these situations where there's something lurking that's gonna make your life really hard like yours. And in sort of a few scenarios that we're gonna be talking now with, uh, Jon Barnes about, Jon has been on the podcast before. He. To a top chap, an absolute, just a brilliant person to, um, ask about these more tricky situations. You know, he's an adaptive organizations consultant. I think he's seen everything along the way. So he will help us to unpick some of these situations and leave the listener with some practical things to do to get the best outta those, uh, those little promotions that might have a little sting in the tail.
[00:03:08] Pia: And a very, very warm welcome back to Jon Barnes. Lovely to have you back on the show, Jon.
[00:03:13] Jon: Hello. Thanks for having me, guys. Happy to be here with you.
[00:03:16] Dan: It's an absolute pleasure. Lovely to see you.
[00:03:18] Pia: Before we send you to Dan to be tortured, we are going to ask you some pretty, sort of curly questions about teamwork and, uh, and what goes on. So we, we've got a few, few to look at today that, that become a bit of the, the challenges for team leaders and teams and yeah, we're gonna get into the detail. First, he's cutting the cards. You might have got away the first time. You ain't gonna get away the second time.
[00:03:45] Dan: So the, the, uh, from our pack of conversation starter cards, I have one we haven't had before. It's a green. Strange one actually. The song I would like played at my funeral
[00:03:56] Pia: Oh, best ever. I love that
[00:03:59] Jon: Bloody hell. Um, yeah, the first, just instinctively, the first thing that came to mind was Here Comes the Sun by the Beatles. It was my wedding song. So dunno if that's a good, or. It would've to be some sort of Beatles track, I imagine. I quite liked the recent AI,
[00:04:18] Dan: Oh, you did?
[00:04:19] Jon: Yeah, I quite liked it. I, I thought, uh, it felt like they were, they were speaking from across worlds and forgiving each other. That was how I like projected my Beatle mania onto it. So I'd go for that.
[00:04:31] Dan: But a big Beatles fan.
[00:04:32] Jon: Oh, like, yeah. Absurd. Like, yeah, yeah. Just love all the back stories. I don't quite know what it is. Maybe it's 'cause I originally was into them being the cheeky chappies at the beginning of their career and then, and then kind of, I love all the different phases they went through. I feel like they're archetypes, they're like Myers Briggs in a, in a band, uh, which I'm kind of into. So I like them all for different reasons. Yeah. I'm a big fan.
[00:04:59] Pia: So, and I'm gonna ask you this one, Dan, what would yours be? I know he is gonna say, I'm not gonna die. I think that's probably what you're gonna say is
[00:05:06] Dan: Well, similarly I'm gonna dodge the question, just say that I've greatly admired someone I used to work with who sadly died of cancer about five years ago and went to his funeral and his, the music at the end was Another One Bites the Dust, and I thought it, by Queen and it was, it was super, it was sort of one of these, haha Oh, isn't Mark funny? Oh no, actually we're all going this way. It was a brilliant light way to just remind us of all of our sort of sh time, time is limited on this earth.
[00:05:39] Jon: Great bit of experience design, that.
[00:05:42] Dan: Yeah, it was, it was super. And you could almost feel those sort of thoughts going in the room. Ha ha. No, no, this isn't fun. Oh, wow. It's us next. Okay, I get it. I get it, I get it. So, yeah, so I'll, I'll use his as my answer to that question. What about you, Pia While we're on, while we're on songs,
[00:05:58] Pia: Oh, um, yeah, no, I probably would have a bit of a laugh at the end, so I'd have primal scream moving on up, which I think, yeah, which is one of my all time favorite songs. But I would definitely have that at the end because I know that everyone would have a little shortle in the aisles,
[00:06:12] Dan: it is. That is, that is perfect. That's perfect. Excellent. Excellent. Good choice. Very good choice. I'll work on mine.
[00:06:20] Jon: Let's do this all for the whole podcast.
[00:06:23] Dan: We should do now, Jon we have got you back on the show because we are talking about the subject of team leadership and we want to really, um, shed some light on some specific challenges that people sometimes have when they take over a team. But before we do that, tell the listener in case they haven't heard your previous show, tell us a bit about you.
[00:06:44] Jon: Yes. Hello dearly. Um, my name's Jon. I help, uh, organizations to become more adaptive. So that's a shift from, let's say, quite rigid hierarchies or bureaucracies towards teams managing themselves increasingly, so being more autonomous. Um, I'm particularly favorable to those, those styles of working where individuals kind of get more freedom, but also are more accountable, so they have to step up and take more responsibility. Where groups kind of collectively nurture the culture they want together. And I think that will be quite relevant actually for some of the stuff we're discussing today.
[00:07:22] Dan: Excellent, excellent. Well, let's get stuck into these and we've sort of shared offline some of, some, some ideas based on some scenarios that we've seen in teams we've been working with that can present a challenge for a team leader taking over a team. The first one we want to explore with you and get your thoughts on was this what's sometimes called buddy to boss.
[00:07:42] So you've been in the team, you've been in the ranks, and then you are the one that gets the promotion. You can almost feel the sort of potential pain in that, but what, what's, I've certainly seen one of these recently and, and the leader did struggle to make that transition, was really quite at sea actually, about how they did that. So what's your thinking on it? Have you seen this, Jon and the, and then what might be a way to approach this?
[00:08:07] Jon: I, I've seen it a lot. I define it as awkward. It's the, is the, uh, is what I see.
[00:08:13] Pia: It depends how well you know them, how close a body you are.
[00:08:16] Jon: yeah. Right. Like, you know, how many, um, how many pints have you had? How many lines have already been blurred? It's a tricky one for sure. When you brought this to me, the first thing I thought of was how this is a shift in a social contract. Like we, we had this agreement, and in this agreement all this stuff was okay, and maybe other stuff wasn't okay. And now we're moving into a new agreement and what's in and out has changed. And I think that that feels nebulous, partly, I think that's why it's awkward.
[00:08:54] I bias towards being very explicit and, uh, you know, all this sounds almost, I mean, if you're awkward already, this isn't gonna help. But I, I bias towards sitting down together or going for a walk, actually, particularly men, because they don't like looking to each other's eyes, so being, being next to each other I think is even more helpful. But to say, Hey, things are gonna change a bit. Uh, how do you feel about that, you know, to act, to discuss the awkwardness. I think a moment you, it kind of, um, pricks the balloon a bit. I think if you can, if you can do that.
[00:09:28] Dan: And I guess it also does, as I think about that awkwardness and the, the sort of pints in the sort of Anglo-Saxon culture. But it, it makes me think about, I suppose it depends on what that buddy relationship was like as well. If you spent the whole time in the pub sort of bad mouthing management, or even not just the people in management, but actually the idea of being managed, and you know, sort of always deadlines and you've got these stupid targets, yada. And then you are actually become the owner of it. I imagine you can set yourself up for a tricky, a sticky situation. If you are, then that person.
[00:10:02] Jon: Yeah, interesting. I think Karma, karma would bite you back, you know? But I, but actually that's a really interesting point, right? Like, whether you are in a managerial position or not, or hoping to be in one or not, the way you show up day to day matters, because who knows what situation you'll be in in a couple of years time and all the things you've said before, they still, they're gonna matter more than ever, perhaps.
[00:10:28] Pia: I think too, people are buddies until they see an opportunity sometimes to be promoted. And then the, the buddydom is sort of put to test, I think, you know, then it that, well, it's quite, yeah, it's quite tricky because then it's sort of a bit like, and that can cause friction. And then there's the situation where you both go for the same job, Two people go for the same job and only one of, and one of you gets it.
[00:10:49] Jon: That's quite common, right? So in all of these situations, I think it's worth sitting like that's a hard conversation to have, but one you'd benefit from, from saying, Hey, I know we both went for this, and it feels weird that I got it, and you didn't. Um, you know, a bit of humility of course would help in that moment as well. And a bit of, uh, acknowledgement and respect for the other person's skills and qualities, you know, to be able to say, Hey, you know, I know I got it. But I think there's a lot of things you do that, you know, I really respect and, and struggle with myself and, you know, would love, would love those strengths to be here.
[00:11:25] Um, and to have a conversation about the relationship. I mean, that is a rule for me of relationships, you know, like in a slightly earnest manner. My wife and I try to do it semi-regularly, you know, how are we getting on at the moment?
[00:11:38] Pia: That's always a good icebreaker.
[00:11:40] Jon: How are we getting on at the moment? It's a, it's a real, as you know, there's a slight silent lull, but, um, it's an important convers. I see it as like there's a string between two people and we're talking about the string, about the connector. And maybe it needs like, I don't know, cleaning over time or, you know, there there's some tending that needs to be done to that. So I think having an explicit conversation about it is useful, and possibly setting a review from day one. So saying, you know, in two, three weeks time, let's have this conversation again for it to become normal. To discuss how we're relating to one another. Um, and that's the beginnings of the creation of a new social contract that will replace the buddy one.
[00:12:27] Pia: And do you think people are good at having these conversations or do you think that they feel a bit embarrassed or, I mean, what do people normally do? I mean, I. To to, to have that type of conversation, you gotta be quite brave.
[00:12:41] Jon: Yeah, it's, it, it is brave. I agree. Um, I guess I, um, I find them awkward too. Um, you know, it's been a learned behavior to have these kind of conversations. But I have found that over time from having had them and not had them, that the awkwardness is nothing compared to the. Long term and like nefarious price paid of unclear relationships where there's unsaid stuff and we're talking about each other to other people instead of to each other. That stuff is comfortable, but ultimately expensive, whereas a few walks a walk in the park every two weeks starting off with how are we getting on or how's it going? I, I personally find less painful.
[00:13:30] Pia: why is it awkward?
[00:13:32] Jon: Yeah. It's like you and me were equals now I'm above you. You know, that could be one. And definitely like, what if you don't respect me? What if as buddies, you know, you think we're equals? So now you struggle to think I'm above you. Like, I think it's, it's the status games that we play that are getting in the way.
[00:13:48] And the, the thing is, I think you can have a hierarchy, you know, a totally structured manager, team member relationship, but still have an adult to adult relationship. That's the key here. It like, it doesn't mean we move to parent child, like absolutely not. And. To me, adulthood means being able to talk about this difficult thing, and that is just an equals relationship. It's not, it's not hierarchical in that sense, if you know what I mean.
[00:14:16] Dan: I suppose that actually that, I think that's the seed of some of this discomfort and awkwardness, isn't it? How we have been raised to see a leader is that it comes with status. And many of the leaders we've seen in the past have played that card pretty strongly. You know, now on the bar, I'm gonna get what I want. And so I guess. Part of it is just that expectation that people think you're gonna move into that space, or even that you feel you should start to become overbearing and annoying to your former buddies. So there's a little bit of expectation around these roles, which is just, which is a shame to be, you know, at this point in the 21st century and still have that.
[00:14:55] Jon: Yeah, absolutely. There. I think there's a shift here where this person is going from buddy to boss. Their responsibilities are shifting and the relationships will shift, but the relationships can remain and maybe even strengthen and become adult to adult.
[00:15:09] Uh, you know, I, I really remember at school, I mean, I was, you know, I had a bit of an analogy to authority, so bear that in mind, but I hated that I had to say sir or miss and, and call them by their surname, whereas they'd call me by my first name. It just really bothered me. Uh, I think I respected them, that they're my teachers and they're older and they know more than me, but I didn't see that I should be, like, we could both call each other, you know, by our surnames or by our first names, whichever's fine. Uh, because the relationship could be one of mutual respect whilst acknowledging that this person's in charge of 30 screaming kids, and I'm not, you know, that that's a different level of responsibility, but the mutual respect can be there no matter the format. And I think this is an opportunity to really keep that adult to adult relationship.
[00:16:01] And one thing I think a leader could do in moving from Buddy to boss is ask for feedback from their quote unquote subordinates. Because that is a sign of humility. It's a sign of listening. I'll, I'll talk about listening a lot in the upcoming, uh, profiles we're about to talk about as well. 'cause that, I think, feels key. 'Cause it invites someone in, it's not being done to them once they're heard and that, that feels important to me.
[00:16:26] Dan: And, and more awkwardness of course, is if the word feedback just stimulates that, doesn't it? 'cause actually they're gonna, you're gonna, what are you gonna hear? You're gonna ask for feedback. What are you going to hear? And it's some, and we, we, we are, as you say, we we're in, we're, we, we very often just push everything under the carpet, brush, everything under the carpet, sort of, oh, it'll be fine if I don't ask, if I don't ask for feedback, brilliant thing is I won't get any that. How good how good is that?
[00:16:55] Pia: therefore it doesn't exist.
[00:16:56] Dan: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Pia: Doesn't exist, it's not there. Nothing to see here.
[00:16:59] Jon: I'm great boss. No one's, I mean, have you ever asked them? I get it. It's hard. It's hard. I find structures help with feedback, so the kinds of structures being, you put it in the diary, in advance, because then it just a thing that's in the diary, it's not being called up because there's a weird situation going on that's scary. And the other one is to time-box it. Say like, so the, the simplest one is, um, af like, let's say two people have had a client meeting together, straight after 15 minutes on Zoom. One thing I appreciate about you is this, one thing I'd like to see more of from you is this, and we take it in turns. If you can do that early in shifting from buddy to boss, the other person will get the feeling that they're shaping you as a boss in a way, or they're contributing to the way we relate. Again, it's, yeah, it's awkward and embarrassing at first, perhaps for some people, but over time I find it so, so valuable that it's well worth it.
[00:17:57] Dan: Fantastic. Well, we've, we've got off to an awkward start there. That that's, that sort of delved into some hefty areas of, uh, of shifting these social contracts, and that adult to adult piece seems to be at the heart of it. So, but let's look at our second scenario, Jon which is this one that we've seen as well, which is where a team is seen as being in need of a turnaround and they bring someone in from the outside to be the agent of change, and all the hopes are pinned on that sort of rather sort of coming over the hill like the cavalry. So what, what are the sort of, what are the, what are the sort of perils of that and how could we possibly move through it?
[00:18:38] Jon: So the perils, that seems to me it's an outsider peril, like this sounds like an evolutionary almost hang up, you know, there's someone from the outside, from the out group entering our tribe or something, you know, that is, uh, historically a peril. So I, I think what's we're scared of is there's another, there's an outsider but also the unknown, like who is this person?
[00:19:02] So we have this, um, strange sunk cost thing where even if we're in an awful situation, we'd rather stick to that than do something new. 'cause better the devil you have. At least I know how bad this is. I dunno how good or bad it would be with someone else here. So that sounds to me to be the main peril that, that sense of the uncertainty being dangerous.
[00:19:22] Dan: Well, actually, I, I, I, this was me at one point. Um, I, I was given this, I was charged with this. And it, one time in my, my professional career, I'd had the successful period with another company and I was seen as someone who could go and sort of fix things really. And in one, actually twice in a row. And one of them, it seemed to work. And the other time emboldened by that success, I sort of stuffed it up. Because you can sort of start to believe your own headlines really, you know, and, and you looking back, you realize that some of your success was down to luck, as sort of few circumstances it seemed to fit, you and, um, what was needed at the time.
[00:20:04] I think that how I would summarize it is the danger for the team leader, one of them is that they close down their curiosity, that they don't learn. They've got a formula. It's worked. Do this, do this. And whilst a lot of that might be true, there are bits on the edges that are going to be, that are gonna cause them problems if they don't listen and realize this is not the same as that last one.
[00:20:25] Jon: What, what came up for me was when you, when you, you even termed it as like someone coming in from the outside. There's this, uh, saying in systems theory that systems only accept their own solutions. And so if, if that's the case, this could be like a, an organ transplant that the body refuses. Um, and so what, what we need is for the body to, or the, you know, the team to create its own solution, I think.
[00:20:51] You know, I think of this as like, particularly if there's a turnaround situation, you can probably assume engagement's low. So let's say everyone's on amber to red lights here and we're trying to turn them green and I think a leader in this situation, the big peril is they can put themselves under the pressure of needing to come in and be inspiring and amazing and get everyone to go green. And it's like, I think that's overextending our own responsibility or abilities. 'Cause like you said, a lot of it's down to luck and context and circumstance. I can't make you engaged, that's your job. Um, but I might be able to create an environment within which your natural desire to be engaged, 'cause surely you're not wanting to hate your job all day long, could manifest.
[00:21:34] And listening again is like the top thing. I would say, if you are in this situation, come in and genuinely listen and be genuinely curious for a decent period because I think it will help people mourn the past a bit. We definitely have a need to grieve the past in all sorts of situations. It would help you to learn, 'cause you're like, know what's going on for real. And I think the team would start to accept you. You'd go from being a threat to being an insider very quickly if you just helped people feel heard.
[00:22:05] Dan: I think that puts a finger on it. And, and actually, even though, well, very often the turnaround is not something that the team sees a need for. It's something that they, they're being asked to change, change, change direction. But either way, people don't really want to. It's, it's, it's something that's not realistic or, or desirable that the team says, oh, we've really stuffed this up, thank goodness there's an outside. Oh, thank goodness the other savior is here. We're useless, tell us what to do. That, that, that's not, that's not helpful or realistic. And, um, people don't see themselves like that, and they shouldn't. They've got, they've got success that they might need someone to coach them and support them and help them to go onto the next curve, but it's not that sort of, you gotta be careful that dynamic of, you know, of the savior, the messianic sort of savior, um, with all these poor people just waiting for you to bless them.
[00:23:00] Pia: And I think that's when you can let, as you say, let your ego take over. You know, my advice would be do your homework. Find out before you weighed in boots and all, what is the goal here? And, and what support do you have as the leader? Because sometimes you can be in some situations, you know, brought into a really difficult situation. You just end up becoming the full guy.
[00:23:23] And so you really need to be clear about, you know, what the organization's looking for over what period of time, and a true understanding as best you can, what the situation is that you're going into, because then you may have to really adjust your style.
[00:23:38] And I think that's, I think you're absolutely right, Dan. You often use the style that got you the success last time, but the situation's changed radically and is completely different. But we're blinded by, um, a little bit of our own ego. So that's when we need to really take, stop, get as much information as possible, and probably really listen. For, for a period of time. You know, they talk about the first 90 days. Yes, you get a plan, but just listen. Listen and hear what's going on, and then formulate a plan. Don't try and do it within that first three months.
[00:24:12] Dan: and, and I, you are right, and the quality of that listening has to be at a higher level than you think. You know, I I, one of the, that job I went into and, you know, it didn't go particularly bad. It's only looking back, I thought, hold on a second. I missed a few tricks there. And what I, the, the mode of listening I did, you know, 'cause I read the wa the Watkins book and First 90 Days and went on a full listening thing. But I think there was a little piece which was, okay, I'm gonna listen to this and understand this situation. Then see how I can apply my approach to that. It was sort of, I've got a, I've got a jigsaw puzzle piece here and I'm gonna look for the pieces that fit instead of actually genuinely saying, oh, okay, I've never seen this before, I don't understand that. Help me to understand what actually is happening here for you. And, you know, so, it's tricky because you are being told you, you go in and solve the situation fast and you've got this experience, but you've gotta be quite wary of that.
[00:25:08] Jon: Well, and I'd say the more ambiguous the situation, which this is for the entering leader, it's ambiguous in that they simply are entering a situation that is unknown to them, the dynamics are unknown, the, you know, social contracts are unknown and in those situations, being complexity friendly here means being open, listening, probably entering co-creation or something, because otherwise you'll do a square playground hole.
[00:25:34] There's a few things I've tried that I've found, uh, really valuable one, obviously if it's a small team, is simply the leader, um, the new leader, spending some time, like you say, listening with some depth. You know, not just listening to the facts, like, this person thinks this and thinks that, but how do they feel about the thing that they're saying? So getting some kind of emotional data from that.
[00:25:56] When it's been a large team of like, you know, a couple of hundred people or something, um, we've run listening labs, we called them, which were facilitating workshops in small groups where, you know, idea is anything goes, you can say absolutely anything you want here, you know, providing people actually do that, because feeling psychologically safe is a nebulous thing. But they capture the clusters and themes and then we play it back to everyone at the end saying we really have heard this. You know, 'cause this goes beyond a survey 'cause you don't feel heard in a survey. And bitching in the suggestion box isn't actually that cathartic, Whereas being in a room with people and hearing different perspectives is.
[00:26:36] And after this listening phase, what I've loved doing, this is one of my favorite workshops. I think the biggest group I've done this with is probably like 200 or something, and it was to get everyone on PostIts to write what do you want to improve about this place? I've actually gone further and said, what don't you like about this place, but what would you like to improve about it? And then, uh, this was a very, we were in a warehouse and I just said with someone in the room, share one PostIt, and they walked to the center with, you know, over a hundred colleagues around them, and said this thing. Really scared, but it was actually like bless, really simple. It was like, oh, we don't communicate well, you know, it was pretty vanilla. Uh, and then I said, well, if, if anyone's got the same post-it, come and put it here. And basically everyone brought the same post-it, and then everyone laughed to realize, oh, we actually have all the same problems in common. And 15 minutes later there were five clusters of improvements to make. And then we say, well stand where you have most energy to change this thing. Then we give them a, a period of dissecting and listening about the topic in groups. And then we ask them to create a plan that might improve this thing over the next three months.
[00:27:51] I've done this and come back a year later and these projects still be running because we self-identified what we wanted to change about our workplace, we got to listen to each other, we got to make the plan, and we got to volunteer to the actions that we took. So it's no longer, the turnaround isn't actually happening from the outside anymore, it's happening from the inside. It's just that this external manager played the role that facilitated it. And here I find a lot of lights go green at this point.
[00:28:21] Dan: That sounds a very powerful approach. And I think it, uh, as you were talking it through, I've, I realized that there's a, even though this turnaround boss is often sent in to do things to a team, an organization, the trick is to do it with. And, uh, if you miss that chance, you're going to, you, you're just lose missing the, the talent that's there and the ideas that are there.
[00:28:43] Jon: And maybe there's a paradox here. How could they, how can this outsider create an inside out movement?
[00:28:49] Pia: I heard a fascinating story last week. So, one of the people I was working with was a former employee at Nisan and Carlos Goen, who was the key turnaround man, you know, fascinating character, brought in, changed ni Nissan's fleeing, or it was, it was falling apart as a business. He turned it around, and he had this incredible personality, and then they took on Renault.
[00:29:19] But what was interesting was he didn't know how to change out a gear, so he carried on being this, you know, driving, when it was already a successful business. And actually people then felt like less motivated and less interested in it because he would get immensely emotional about really small things that were happening or it would become, and in the end, people had seen too much of that, and then they lose trust. So it's what had been the rallying cry. Well actually it became the death nell in the end until he carried out in a music box and left the country.
[00:29:58] Dan: house arrest in the case of a double bass, I think, didn't he? Yeah, while waiting for trial. Um, anyway. Very interesting, but that's fascinating. So yes, adapting and changing gear at the right moment, I think that's, uh, that's, that's a wise point.
[00:30:12] So why don't we get into this third scene scenario, Jon, and that is taking over from a much loved manager. I saw this recently in a team and people are still talking about the good old days of X and it was quite difficult for the team leader to shift.
[00:30:29] Jon: Well, the, the immediate instinct or thought I had when you brought this one up was similar to the buddy to boss, is that, is a feeling of awkwardness. Like, um, as a leader or a manager coming in and feeling like, I actually know they prefer the person before than me right now.
[00:30:49] Dan: Yes.
[00:30:50] Jon: Trying our best to be okay with that. I think here you used the word, um, ego earlier, Pia. I imagine here it would be easy for someone's ego to go off the charts because I wanna be important, I wanna be like the boss or whatever's going on. Um, and really like these person, these people have a relationship that they built up over time with a previous person, and that's entirely understandable. It actually reminds me when people start dating a bit too soon. And I remember, I remember a while back going on the odd date and someone talking to me a lot about their ex.
[00:31:25] Pia: That that's a killer.
[00:31:26] Jon: Yeah, I don't think you're over them yet. And I ha I remember one date actually. I remember just listening to them talk about their ex and I quickly shifted to, this isn't a date. I think I, I think I just need to listen to them because they've got some stuff to process, you know.
[00:31:41] Pia: This is a therapy session.
[00:31:42] Jon: Yeah.
[00:31:43] Pia: But I think, I think I, I think you're right there. I think there's an element where in this scenario you can feel quite insecure. And actually probably the best advice is, is just to keep calm, take a longer game. You might take some hits in the earlier session. Don't try to be liked. Just dedicate yourself to being an effective leader and trying to get the best outcome. And over the course of time, people get that, people get that, you know, they don't, they're not gonna be like three years down the line, still hankering on the person, the boss beforehand, but it might take a year. And it's, it's a steady, consistent look for small wins, low hanging fruit, ways that you can build that confidence, you know, and that that's, I think is rather than try, try too hard.
[00:32:34] Jon: Yeah, I really, you are right on the waiting it out and having the long view here 'cause it will shift. And it does remind me, there's a Famous group dynamics model by Dr. Susan Wheen, who I think passed last year maybe. But she was a bit of a legend 'cause she took all sorts of other group dynamics models, studied them all, and kind of created one that she felt was most, uh, evidence based, and that has, you know, it's got the stages that teams go through. So she names her differently. It's, um, stage one is inclusion when everyone's polite and not really being honest. Stage two is she actually calls it counterdependency and fight, um, which is when we're going against the leader or we're looking for our roles. And her argument is most people stay there. And then if you make it through the fight, you enter trust. And if you go off the back of trust, you enter high performance.
[00:33:26] But she has this fifth stage that no one ever talks about, which is, she must have been quite a dramatic woman 'cause she named it termination. Um, and that was basically saying goodbye. And really, from an evolutionary standpoint, we have always had rituals to say goodbye. We started this call by talking about funerals. That's an, that's the biggest example we have. But if you don't get to say goodbye, I mean particularly if we're talking about losing somebody, um, emotionally, the toll of never getting to say goodbye. Think, think of deaths that happen when we, uh, in, in a circumstance where we really just couldn't say what we wanted to say, it can be hugely difficult. And I think on micro, micro levels we have it when, um, when a colleague has left, like this much loved manager has left and we've now got a new manager straight away, but we don't know them. I think it can be worth creating a sort of ritual. Um, it's just in corporate land you do that with post-it notes.
[00:34:26] And um, the, a way to do it is simply to hold some sort of reflection so we get together. We're gonna say everything we liked about the past. We'll go through ups and downs on a timeline. Um, we'll talk about the elements of our culture that we really want to preserve 'cause they're so great. Um, and maybe towards the end of that conversation start to goes towards things we could do differently to look forward a little bit. And I'm not saying this solve this, I still think, Pia, you are entirely correct to say we, we should hold the long view. But I think it can accelerate the um, psychological transition for people and mark it. And you, if you, if this new person is, um, facilitating well, they're totally non-threatening. 'Cause actually they're creating an environment for these colleagues to think through, you know, the possibly several years of their work together. And that I think can be quite a, um, it can speed up that transition
[00:35:26] Dan: I can really see that happening practically actually, sort of honoring the past, but then asking people what things, as you said with the, the in the warehouse, what, what do you wanna do differently now? What would you like to do to. to move to the future and make an even better future. I'm sure, you know, things are there and, um, working on those would be a really, really great start, as I said, yeah. While honoring the, the past in some way, I guess.
[00:35:50] It's a, it's a tricky one 'cause you, you also come in and you, again, you, you probably do want to create change. You want to leave some of those things behind. They are endings and you want to, I've seen this specifically that a new approach has been needed by the team leader and the old, the old guard sort of represented a past that is no longer with us. So it's a delicate little thing, movement, isn't it? To sort of say, to bring, to bring people into a new world when actually it's not just the leader that they liked, it was the old world that they liked.
[00:36:23] Jon: Yes, And maybe it was comfortable. Maybe it was, you know, I actually, I'm thinking now of a specific scenario with a client I've worked with where a manager has left who was really adored. But if we're honest, it was too comfortable for too long in the way that they were working, they, they'd stopped progressing and performing. Now, I think having this initial, let's like look at how great things were, how lovely it was, but let's also try and start getting a bit honest about there's some things missing in terms of, you know, performance or numbers or creativity or excitement. And we wanna preserve some of the good stuff, but we also wanna start moving towards that. I think that's the. The balance that we're talking about. A bit of, just listening and talk, talking about how things have been whilst this new person saying, okay, but we want to start making a bit of a shift in that direction. I, I think having some sessions that do that, but then, you know, also some patience to gradually stamp your mark a bit more is probably what's, if you went in too hard, too fast, I think that could, you could get a lot of reactants.
[00:37:27] Dan: Jon you are always, I know you're across all the theories and, but you are always so practical. So it's been wonderful to dive into those and I think the listener will have extracted some specific things they can do, however, in some cases awkward, that might be that, um, that they can move through these scenarios.
[00:37:43] So one final question for you, which is sort of around the topic. What, um, what book or a podcast or whatever, anything, any, any other sort of medium. What, what book recommendation do you have, um, for our listener, what's, what would you point them towards in your world?
[00:38:02] Jon: It wouldn't be from my world. I try not to read too much from my world out of fear of just copying what other people do. Do you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go all out. I would read a book. There's two, I can think of both. Desmond Tutu. Um, one would be, the book of Forgiving, I think it's called, or the book of forgiveness. Because he's talking about the most extreme situation ever in moving on, which is Apartheid, South Africa. And it, it's extreme to under, like for me it's like showing how brave we can be in moving on from a situation that we've been in. Um, and it's, it's talk about, I mean, awkward or whatever this is, just incredible, the bravery and depth that's needed. And you know, I don't think there's a, an organizational theory that can come close to how transformative. these kind of approaches are. So I'm, I'm gonna leave, um, listeners with, uh, that actually I think that kind of stuff is, um, really important. And you can take the big brave principles and make them tiny and apply them to a little moment in teams as I've tried to demonstrate with some of these practical exercises on this, on this conversation.
[00:39:21] Dan: Wonderful. Great recommendation. Thank you, Jon. And, uh, thank you for being with us today to explore these knotty topics that team leaders taking on teams sometimes find them in
[00:39:31] Jon: You'll have lots of awkward listeners writing in to you.
[00:39:35] Dan: Fidgeting.
[00:39:36] Pia: Bring it on. Bring it on.
[00:39:42] I've had a brilliant week of debriefs and witnessed some amazing conversations where the very nature of, of having a Squadify means that the team spends the time talking about the results. And this might seem to people who are listening to us the first time, a complete naval gazing, but, um, the richness of it is what creates the connections and what creates the momentum and the motivation to evolve. You know, it is the connection piece first.
[00:40:17] And I think this is what Jon was talking about. So many things are solved. By the type of conversation that you have, and yet we consistently see teams' abilities to take that time outta the business and reflect or ask questions to coach one another or be open about feedback. They're all quite low scores. They're all quite low because we find that hard. We feel more comfortable when we're in a position of our expertise than we are possibly a vulnerability. But more of a connected conversation, which I think was everything he was advocating for a, for a leader.
[00:40:58] Dan: He really was. And yeah, you're right. Those three reflection, coaching and feedback, often lows. And they've got that psychological challenge, haven't they? Of, of what am I going to find out? You know, uh, what, you know, this could be hard to hear, um, or damaging, but also in these constrained times, they all take time. If you want to connect with individuals, that takes time. If you want to just pause as a team and say, let's stop talking about that big task that's breathing down our neck, let's actually talk about it,
[00:41:29] it seems like, as you say, it can look like naval gazing, but what Jon's revealed is all this stuff is, is actually the things that make things work. And as we know, if you don't handle them, they don't, they don't even just sit there, they grow and grow until they're really impacting performance. So, um, yeah, those, those, those three are, they're, they're good indicators. We're not doing a lot of what Jon is suggesting.
[00:41:53] Pia: And I think the other bit is, is that, um, just because you've got a promotion, don't confuse that with respect. You have to earn that, and sometimes the humility is what's going to. Get much greater buy-in much greater trust. Um, the acknowledgement that there may be hurt feelings people might have gone for your job or your friends, and it's, we're gonna be in a difficult situation. There's a bit of grasping the nettle, but in a humble way that, um, I think then earns, you know, is the first that, it's not the servant leadership necessarily, but it certainly is, um, one way. You're not using your ego. You're not letting your ego take charge now you've just got the promotion.
[00:42:35] Dan: Yeah. De I think people do get stuck on this, um, when they're in, generally in leadership, which is, um, you know, do I impose myself or do I back off and be a bit more laissez fair? And, and don't, don't sort of, it's, it's all cool. It's, you know, it's, it's the vibe actually. You have a role, it's not a status. You have a role as a leader to be constructive. And that's neither of those things. It's not sort of pushing forward too hard or retreating too much. It's actually holding, putting your ego at bay and holding a, the possibility of, of a, of a better outcome together. And I think when you do that, that's when you start having these conversations, you start listening.
[00:43:17] Um, but I think people sometimes don't actually know quite what stance to adopt as a leader. And, and they think it's, they get stuck on the horns of this dilemma, whereas actually there's a, there's a better way in between, I think.
[00:43:29] But that's it for this episode. You can find show notes where you are listening and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:43:51] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.