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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
BTS 2.10 Ecclesiastic leader series: What is the role of the bishop and what is my role in healing and changing?
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You're listening to Breaking the Silence, a podcast by Reach10, [00:01:00] where we are breaking the shame, silence, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma, and helping you embrace your God given sexuality with courage, compassion, and connection. I'm your host, Chrishell Simons.
Crishelle: Welcome back listeners. Today we are breaking the silence with another episode in our series of ecclesiastic leaders and questions to them and just kind of jumping into why an ecclesiastic leader can help you and what their role is. And today we are once again meeting with my bishop. Bishop Doug Clevin, and he's so great.
If you missed his first episode, go back and listen to it. We talk about why should we meet with a bishop. And in this episode, we are going to be talking about what is the role of a bishop in my recovery or my healing journey? Like what role does the bishop [00:02:00] play? And so without further ado, Doug, you want to share anything?
Doug: Sure, so the question, repeat the question for me really quick before I answer it.
Crishelle: Oh, my pleasure. What is Is the role of a Bishop in my healing journey,
Doug: Okay, your healing journey. All right
Crishelle: whether that's like recovery or like fill in the
Doug: Whatever it is. Okay, gotcha All right We have a saying in our church. We say the church is true Okay
Crishelle: We do say that a lot.
Doug: we do say it a lot and there is a context in which I agree with that statement But there is a, there's another context in which I don't. The phrase that I would state absolutely in any scenario is the gospel is true. The gospel being the sum total of God's thoughts. Whatever God's [00:03:00] opinion on the matter is, that is the gospel truth. The church is true in so much as it correctly teaches the gospel. In so much as it correctly conveys God's thoughts, God's opinions. on the issues that we struggle with. Now, the church is an instrument to learn the gospel.
And like any instrument, sometimes it'll be really sharp and sometimes it'll be really blunt. I think in the prior episode, I mentioned a subpar experience with the bishop that I had, okay? So the instrument won't always be sharp. If I, let's say I get up in sacrament meeting and I'm assigned to give a talk and all the things that I say are the gospel truth, but I say them in a super boring manner, [00:04:00] well, then I have rendered the church less true because what is the church?
It's where you go to listen to a super boring sermon.
So to, so I, I play a part and I as the bishop, but everybody does the Relief Society president, the nursery leader, everybody plays a part in making the church less or more true, depending on how well you are at conveying gospel truths. So what is my role when somebody comes and sits down?
And has to share, you know, some burden with me. My role is to figure out the gospel truth and convey that to the person in a way that they will accept it and digest that truth so that it can work its. It's magic with them. Now one one thing [00:05:00] I've got to do is I have to know the gospel.
I have to figure out what God's thought is on this issue. And then I have to package that truth in a way that will be. amenable to the ears, to the nature of the listener. Okay. So just like I said, I could say true things and bore the audience to death. I can, I can tell somebody true things, but, but if I, if I don't form them, In the way that is useful to the listener, then that's just wasted vocabulary.
I think Paul references when I'm a Roman to the Romans, a Jew to the Jew. That that's what he's conveying. There's a truth out there. Not everybody is going to take that medicine straight up the same way.
Crishelle: Right. Maybe you gotta like package it different, maybe relate it different,
Doug: sure.
Crishelle: change the story or [00:06:00] parable. Yeah. I love that you've referenced that, that in Paul is one of my favorite scriptures that I used often as a missionary and that I still think of as I, cause everyone's
Doug: Right. So it's a two, me as Bishop, it's a two step process. What is the gospel truth? What is God's thought on this issue? I'm, I'm not guaranteed to have that. Right? I, I do the best I can, there's, there's no guarantees that I'll actually decipher and pluck that truth out of the, the ether. But let's say I do, the second step is also difficult.
How do I deliver this to the person sitting in front of me? So it's not an easy two step but that's my role. I gotta figure out what the, what the true reaction to this problem is. And I've got to deliver it in a way that will be useful to the listener. And can I do that? You [00:07:00] know, I, you, you, maybe you should interview all the people who've met with me and find out my success rate.
Crishelle: I think that what's fascinating about that is that I bet some of them were more ready to even hear it. Even if you perfectly packaged it. I think of, there's so many times in my life where I've
been given a gift where I wasn't stoked about it. And, then maybe four months later I remember, oh, yeah, that gift was actually helpful.
I think it's interesting that you talk about maybe how they received it because , I think. What you bring up is that there's two roles in this process, that there's your role as the bishop in in understanding the gospel and Delivering it in a way that it can be received But then there's the role of the person who comes and in our last episode we talked about the need of honesty and And that the more honest you are the [00:08:00] the better The, then you will be able to change and heal.
And until you can bring everything that you're hiding out from the shadows, it will, it will be impossible to change. So role number one for the receiver is honesty. And then role number two, how to be a good receiver. I think a lot of that has to do with being willing to continue to be humble and to continue to have courage and faith in taking action towards.
applying the gospel principle that has hopefully been delivered in a way that is helpful and full of love. And what, what do you, what would you say as far as the role of the receiver
Doug: Well the role of the receiver is
Crishelle: or the person sitting across from you? Right. Like,
Doug: so let's take, yeah, let's put that down in two scenarios. Let's say I actually did identify the truth [00:09:00] and let's say I presented it in the best possible way it could be presented to the listener. So the best case scenario. In the best case scenario, the listener still has to change behaviors.
Now they didn't, if everything they did was awesome, they wouldn't be sitting in the chair in front of me. So the only reason they're sitting in the chair in front of me is because something has to change in their life. So every now and then most people who come want to change something, but not everybody who does a minority.
want the rest of the world to recognize how wrong the world is and accommodate them. Now that's that the rest of the world is full of trillions of moving parts. You're not going to get it to, but you're not going to tame it. So If you have a problem, and the [00:10:00] problem is the rest of the world, well, then you're going to retain that problem till the day you die.
But if you have a problem, and the
Crishelle: probably beyond, right.
Doug: yes, yes, yes you are. If you have a problem, and the problem is you, oh, well there's something we can work, okay? Now that's the best case scenario. We're, we're saying that I actually found the truth. I did the two step, okay? That's not a guarantee. Okay. So what if you're the listener in that scenario and the bishop, the man who's called set apart to do perform the two step for you fails. What do you do with that? Well, to some degree, the failure of a participant in our community to not do the thing they're [00:11:00] supposed to do, because it isn't just the bishop and elders quorum president could fail your Sunday school. Lots of people can let you down. Okay. to some degree, that is the church performing its vital function.
It is presenting you with people who are not are not ready made to be consumed by you in, in your, you know, most ideal way. So what are you going to do with that? The, the bishop. I'm, I'm not actually the best bishop for every single person in our community. There are some people who I am certain I rubbed the wrong way.
They just don't like the way I approach things. Now you happen to be a fan, but not every, everybody is crochet, right?
Crishelle: true. Yeah.
Doug: So unfortunately for five years, those people [00:12:00] that I think it's a minority, but those people have to put up with me for five years. And. And we think that's, we think that's the church letting us down.
No, that's the church doing exactly what it's supposed to do. It's placing you right next to an unlovable person. One of Christ's most powerful statements for me is when he says, If you love those who love you, what praise have ye? Something like that. Anybody, anybody can love people who they like.
People who do the things they want, who behave in the ways that, that are compatible, they're compatible with. Anybody can do that. But the gospel calls us to love everybody. So you went to your Bishop. It wasn't what you, he did not perform the two step. So we, we sometimes conclude, Oh, well, [00:13:00] the, the church.
Can't be true. It failed me. Well The church will, doesn't, The truthful, the truth claims of the church do not hinge upon my behavior. It's not like all the universe is in suspension, waiting for me to behave correctly. If I behave correctly, then Joseph saw a vision in a forest. If I, if I misstep, then he didn't. If I give good advice Mormon is a real character of history. If I give bad advice, the book of Mormon is a fraud. They, they don't hinge, doesn't hinge on me. And so the challenge is, okay, you didn't get help from your bishop. You need to re retain that plea. But to some degree those poor interactions.
are the function [00:14:00] or is the community performing its function? I actually like that. We, we we set geographical geographical boundaries in our church and
Crishelle: Mm hmm.
Doug: all of you who live here, this is where you go, right? Let's say if I were Jewish, I could pick a synagogue that matched my proclivities. I could, I could go to a Jewish, Jewish synagogue.
That's. You know, delivers a nigh unto atheistic sermon on, on Saturday. Or I can go to one where, you know, I'm, everybody's got the ringlets and we're all wearing a yarmulke and, and dress the same, I can get as orthodox or unorthodox as I want. And, and when I match myself to those people I'm increasing the odds that I'll rub shoulders with people like me.
But if you're a Mormon, you're stuck with the people next to you. I mean, yes. and you've got to figure out how am I going to deal with this guy? [00:15:00] Okay. Now I guess I feel maybe I'm, maybe I'm diverging or going,
going off on a tangent.
Crishelle: I think what's really profound about what you're saying is, I was just listening to the conference talk from this last, General Conference by Elder Christofferson, where he talks about being one in Christ and how, and, and, I'm not going to paraphrase what he says every, and, and know that this mostly, I'm not going to do it well, but here's what I walked away from that with, is that the only way That our differences can be bridged and that our mistakes and the things that make the people around us crazy and rub each other the wrong way.
The only way that those can be overcome is through the Savior, Jesus Christ. And that's how we establish Zion. And that's how, if the person sitting across from you... If the bishop that you are sitting across from doesn't perform the two [00:16:00] step, doesn't do Whichever one it was, maybe both, in a way that was helpful, that too can be made right through the Savior Jesus Christ.
And, and, and I think that that is important to remember in your healing journey because you're dealing with humans. But also can be a really powerful invitation for you to then find out what the truth that the bishop was trying to deliver is.
Doug: Yeah, absolutely. The, the Bishop may fail, but the gospel will remain true. And so you've got to figure out the gospel. The only reason I, I issued that disclaimer about the, You know, poor experience with the bishop is that sometimes as a kid, I would hear a sermon package like this. If you do drugs, you're going to become a drug addict.
That's why you don't do drugs. Because you're going to [00:17:00] become a drug addict. But that statement isn't true. If ten dudes my age do a line of coke, odds are that only one of us is at risk of becoming an actual addict. Who, you know, loses his job and loses his marriage. The rest of us, 9, 46 year old men, are, you know, maybe going to have a good time and then go back to our normal, normal lives.
Okay? So if, I, I, I, I just issued that disclaimer because I don't want to say, If you have trouble, go to your bishop and then everything will be right. Because when, when we tell that to people, you know, kids my age growing up, we say, If, if you do drugs, you're going to become a drug addict. Well, we will disprove that statement.
We'll know kids who do, did drugs and did not become drug addicts. And now if I've disproved you on that statement, what else have you got wrong? What else do you not understand? So it, I [00:18:00] think it's important that we not hold that we not hold the bishop to too high a standard. I mean, there's, how many thousands of them are there?
We, they can't all, they are not God incarnate, and we can't, Go into the bishop's office assuming that i'm actually speaking with a with christ here That's that's an unrealistic expectation And I I i've got to always issue disclaimers because I can't meet that standard. And And but if I don't meet the standard the man christ Still told the truth all his life in every scenario.
He was the right Attribute in the right proportion at the right moment and and though I may fail to convey, you know, his thoughts you can still find him, but for some percentage of the community, [00:19:00] I'm not gonna be a good avenue for you, just because of our personalities or whatever, the way I behave, the way I think, we're, we're just not gonna mesh I want to, But, but for heaven's sakes, Christ couldn't get Jerusalem to fall in line behind him.
I certainly am not going to get Edgemont 12th Ward to you know, toe the perfect line.
Crishelle: Right. Right. Well, and even, I mean, as you were describing that, I thought of many scenarios where the Savior said things to the receiver and, I mean, probably packaged them perfectly, and the receiver did not receive, like, walked away upset or left, followed him no more, or fill, fill in the blank reaction. I think, what I, what I think is cool about this question is that there are two roles.
Like, there's the role of the bishop, but there's [00:20:00] also your role as you come to meet with him. Like, how will you receive him and, and how, and most importantly, how will you receive the savior?
Doug: Amen.
Crishelle: What is a pervasive characteristic of someone who successfully changes?
Doug: Okay, so, the, the person who successfully changes correctly understands the nature of, of the universe we're in, design, the promises God made to everyone. And when we misunderstand the promises, what he's describing then we behave poorly or we, we expect things that never materialize and that those unmaterialized expectations cause frustrations and resentment and anger.
But you are, you are making, you are yearning for a thing. No one ever promised to deliver you.
Crishelle: What you just [00:21:00] described actually reminds me of the Bible dictionary. Definition of repentance and it says that repentance is a change of We how we view ourselves God and others And again, I'm paraphrasing that but I think that that's really profound in what you're saying in is often our sins are coming from unmet needs or coming from misunderstandings of truth or coming from the philosophies of men mingled with scripture that have snuck into our lives and and changed our view of God to, to be a false view of God.
And as we repent and as we change, and as we come to a true understanding, our attitude and our behavior also shift. And, and change moving forward.
Doug: sure. You it's like it's like this, you know, my son, Joaquin, he's 10 years old. Now, if I [00:22:00] make the statement, airplanes can get you from Provo to New York city and, you know, I don't know, three and a half hours, however long it takes. And you decide to test my, my theory that an airplane can do it and you board a plane.
And in that cockpit is Joaquin, my 10 year old, you aren't getting to New York city when Joaquin. is if you hire Joaquin to fly the plane there, but you haven't debunked the statement, airplanes can get you to New York city in three and a half hours. You just have to combine the airplane with a capable pilot.
So that the, the thing, the, the thing that everybody who heals does is they understand the nature of the promises made by the healer. And so what we are often doing is [00:23:00] we are boarding airplanes staffed by 10 year olds who don't know how to drive a car, let alone an airplane. And we're, you know.
Ridiculing promises denigrating God because the airplane isn't moving.
Crishelle: right, right. When really, as we grow up and become airplane pilots, the airplane will fly. The,
Doug: Yeah. If you, you, you can, you can get the plane off the ground. It is, it's a true statement. An airplane can get you to New York city. Maybe it's not three and a half hours. I don't know how long it takes, but it'll do it. If every, if everything is set up correctly, intelligently,
Crishelle: Thank you so much for this beautiful discussion. I feel like it's given me a lot to think about in regards to repentance and how I can continue to allow God to [00:24:00] actually Instruct my view of him, as opposed to allowing my current view of him to be pervasive and, and halt me. But also in, in understanding my role and the role of a bishop or the, or, or the person sitting next to me in church in my experience in the kingdom.
Is there anything else you want to share on, on this?
Doug: man, I don't, I don't have any ideas off the top of my head, but if you've got any more questions, I can answer.
Crishelle: Oh, this is great. This has been a great discussion. Thank you so much, Bishop. And thank you listeners. Again, if you have any questions that you want to have answered from an ecclesiastic leader as to what that experience can be and how that could maybe be different for you moving forward please feel free to submit that in our question box.
Thank you for listening to Breaking the Silence by Reach 10. [00:25:00] Break the silence and help us create a culture of courage and compassion by sharing what you learned today with someone you love. Help us reach more people by rating and reviewing us on iTunes or liking and leaving a comment on to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes.
Reach 10 is a non profit. You can help support this podcast by donating on our website and following us on social media. We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests Do not constitute as professional advice or services, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10.
We do not guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous [00:26:00] culture. Keep breaking the silence.