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Unscripted conversations from the Nekawa team in Paraty, Brazil, about ibogaine, plant medicine, and the daily practices that shape a life to be free of addiction and nonsense. Charles Johnston sits down with the physicians, facilitators, and students who have embarked on the ibogaine and psychedelic path and takes a critical look at what is real and what is fluff in the emerging psychedelic and addiction healthcare landscape. We discuss far more than just the psychedelic experience, as Nekawa is a wellness program and evolving recovery into self-discovery. Educational only. Free online circles are open to anyone at nekawa.com.
Welcome to the Nekawa podcast.
We are here in Brazil at the Nekawa
Ibogaine Treatment
Center campus and we're doing another one
of
Our student series.
We're here with DJ
And this is a topic that has come up a lot
as we've been in conversations
Around the campus with every student and
so I wanted to bring in
His expertise because this is a subject
that means a lot to him that he's
Engaged with a lot and today we're going
to be talking about
12-step community
And specifically we're going to be talking
about this idea.
What was it called again?
The abstinence violation effect.
The abstinence effect.
Okay, and we want to talk about that.
We want to talk about in general kind of
12-step
And the approach that they take but I
think we'll center on the
Abstinence violation effect and expand out
from
There. So why don't you tell us about
that.
This was a new concept for me but
Yeah, why don't you go from there.
Totally. I think that with the abstinence
violation effect it
Stems from this place that.
What is it first? Give us a definition.
Yeah, so it's a phenomenon that takes
place where when someone returns to use
Or as the communities would call it
relapse then they engage in this
All or nothing
Thinking
With their use and unfortunately in the
United States we have a
Epidemic with opioids still and we have an
illicit supply of fentanyl in the
Country. So people are losing their
Lives.
Yeah,
We were talking about that coming here,
walking out here, which we had to
Walk out into the jungle. We're in the
jungle right now where DJ just spent
The last few days and there's close, I
think
It's gone down. It was a hundred thousand
people dying a year.
I think it's somewhere in the 80s right
now but 80-some thousand people dying
A year from opioid use which is
astronomical when you
Think about it and we have this
Very pervasive ideology that says if you
use
Once then you're on a downward spiral and
It's all over and you've got to start over
with your chips.
You've got to
Go through this whole process again and
you've gone through this,
Correct? This is something you've actually
experienced in your life.
So why don't you tell us a little bit
about that, like your own personal
Experience with it before we extrapolate
what it
Means and what maybe we should do
differently.
Yeah, absolutely. So
My story is I was introduced to recovery
circles in 12-step
When I was
16 years old.
Go. Yeah, very young.
A therapist suggested that I go to a
12-step meeting and my parents drove me
there when I was 16 years old
Which looking back I don't think was
Right for myself and
Then again at 22 I was
More introduced to the program and went a
little bit deeper and I think
To tell someone who's young that they're
going that they have to spend the
Right the rest of their life abstinent is
a tall order and
It's hard. It's a hard thing to accept
when you're young.
Yeah, yeah and before we move forward you
said your parents took you there
When you were 16.
I think, you know, not to put any fault on
your parents but they didn't know
What they were doing, right? They were
told by the therapist this is what you
Should do. Take your son here.
16 you're still exploring life, you're
understanding stuff but no we're gonna
We're gonna take you here because we think
you have a problem and
Now you're now you're committed to this
thing.
Yeah, I felt like I was experimenting just
like everyone else and because
Some guidelines came out that I had more
than three drinks it means that I
Was drinking problematically.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I thought and
Given what was going on at home as well I
don't think I was the one that
Needed to
To go to 12-step meeting at the time.
So
The whole story wasn't wasn't there but
yeah it's young for someone to
Be introduced to
Something like that.
Yeah, super tough
And so then you're there they tell you
this is the way you got to do it this
Way you're you're an addict for life
you're going to be in recovery for
Life you can't touch alcohol you can't
touch drugs did that stop you?
For a little bit but
Ultimately it was something that I
couldn't really accept at the time
Because my peers were
It was hard for me to find an avenue being
young.
So
You know it's you feel a lot of shame
around
Your use and in your life when you all of
a sudden you have to you take on
This identity of an alcoholic or an addict
At a very young age and I think identity
is it plays a huge
Role in our lives and when you start to
Identify as that because you're told to it
almost becomes a self-fulfilling
Prophecy.
Yeah, self-fulfilling prophecy for sure
for sure and so you
Brought up shame right and and this this
AVE what is it it's an abstinence
violation effect so
This is built upon the idea of shame right
because you
Use you feel ashamed and then because you
feel
Ashamed rather than tell someone or expose
yourself you
Continue to use and you also feel that
because you've crossed over this
Line that you might as well just go balls
to the wall and
You know see where it goes right it's like
okay
I've broken the law now now I'm really
gonna see how break it
Because it's already smashed yeah why not.
A friend of mine when I was using used to
call it the the fuck-its
You get the fuck-its then it doesn't
matter anymore you're you're off
And so a lot of people go through this
they experience the shame
They go through a much more difficult
process they end up
Sometimes overdosing or things happen
people die you've had
People in your life who have who have died
because of you know
Using afterwards and
I want to talk about
You know if we were to come back to this
okay so we have this abstinence
Violation effect we have shame we have
this idea of relapse
I think to me that's a that's a terrible
concept I've never liked
That concept and when I was using opiates
there are
Plenty of times where I stopped using for
a couple weeks then I started using
Again but I never adopted this terminology
and just like I never
Adopted the terminology of calling myself
an addict or any of that
And I felt that that was important that I
didn't adopt that terminology and
When people say it to me I
I don't correct them but I also don't say
oh you relapse because this
Idea of relapsing is like it's like you're
I don't know
If you you've probably heard the analogy
no no person can step in the same
River twice right
Because the river's flowing and it's
different water every time and when we
Think that we're doing something over and
over it reinforces
The idea that this is all we can do that
we can't do anything
Else and we start to get this in our mind
that oh this is who I am this is
Always how I am and then we can't get
ourselves out of that identity
And we think that we're a chronic relapse
or I've heard that chronic you know
This nonsense but there's actually no such
thing as a relapse there's there's
You use you maybe you stop you use again
But it's not the same thing your years
you're maybe months or years older
Maybe sometimes only days you're a
different person you're waking up on a
Different side of the bed you're thinking
things differently you're
Experiencing that substance differently in
that moment and yet
For the sake of categorization
We use this term on human beings and put
them in a
Box of an identity simply because we can
categorize them
What do you think about that
Well america we'd love labels we have to
label everything
And
Even even from the the dsm5 that we use to
to diagnose
People um
Yeah we love these labels and oftentimes
you know
We're giving labels from an early age
Yeah
Smart kid good kid good boy good girl
Whatever
Yeah or if you're acting up in school then
you have ADHD
But maybe you just didn't want to sit in a
box for um do
Six hours a day
Yeah read fake history
Yeah yeah so um we love labels but I think
that
Um labels can often
Really um almost like marginalize a person
in a way big
Time and when we start to throw around
terms like addict and
It just adds to the stigma that's that's
already there and keeps people in
This um in this system that
Is very hard to get out
Yeah
Yeah I I always and this is something I
talk about a lot with you
Guys is the idea of environment right and
we think of environment as our
Physical environment what's around us
physically or who the people were
Around or maybe even what we what we view
or entertain ourselves with
But there's also the mental environment
like what what boundaries are we
Putting around our ourself mentally that
create the
Environment that we're operating and
thinking about who we are and when I
Think about environment there's a really
wonderful study I like to look at
Called it's rat park um
[unclear] can't remember his name I should
have done some some prep for this
Podcast but there's a fantastic scientist
in
I think he's in vancouver
Huh I
Don't know I don't know british columbia
he's in british columbia and he did
This study where he took rats and he put
them in a place where they get
Heroin and cocaine and of course they use
it until it's out or they use it
Till they die but then he also put them in
a really beautiful place like a
Really lovely environment where there's
other rats they can mate with there's
Those little
Hit the wheels there's things they can do
balls toys whatever
And the rats actually voluntarily don't
use heroin or cocaine
And environment is so important and we
live in this one
Sometimes we can't change our physical
environment we live in a city we live
In a country we live in a certain way we
can change some things but there's
Some limitation there but our mental
environment is totally ours to
Change
It's totally up to us and so many
People give away
Who defines what their mental environment
is to
Professionals
Because they think that they know better
or they're wiser or parents
Or you know when you're 16 years old
people think you have a problem and they
Say oh well you you have a problem you're
a problematic
Drinker right they they establish this
mental environment this little
Trigger that kind of puts a wall on you
and oftentimes when we
Have walls we either try to go around them
or we
Feel sick being inside them
So we create these walls and then suddenly
it's just a
Perfect storm for a continuation of
creating more walls
And more problems that we continue to
reinforce this idea that
We are
Broken addicted diseased relapser
problematic
Defective whatever you name it all the
stupid things that people say
Yeah and we and we believe it people other
people tell us or we read it in
Diagnostic manuals or we read it we watch
youtube videos we watch any
Whatever instagram and the the foolishness
of
This is ours because we're believing it
And I think that's something that I've
tried to get across to every one of
You and something I want everyone to
understand is that you have a choice
Of what you believe
Fundamentally you can choose
And we all get to believe
About ourselves what do we want to be
telling ourselves am I
Am I a chronic relapser or am I an
explorer
Or am I an addict or am I an adventurer
Or am I powerful or am I powerless
Or am I power these things are all so
important
And more important than anything I think
is that
What do we tell ourselves so I'm curious
like for most of your life you've
Been telling yourself one thing and then
now you're in your late
30s
And you're starting to realize something
else so why don't you walk us
Through that a little bit what you've
experienced and where you're at today
With that
Yeah absolutely I feel like I'm at a time
in my life where I'm starting to
Step into myself and understand who I am
and
Part of that process
Was integrating this
Addict or
Person the person that used drugs to cope
with life I needed to to
Integrate that into who I was and I needed
to stop running from it and
Because I ran from it from a long time for
a long time and I kept that part
Of myself at arm’s length
Because I was so ashamed of who I was and
there was people who
In my life who would say this is the best
thing that ever happened to me and
I could never relate to that
Because it had been it took my brother
from me
It took a lot of my life for me and I
could never see it for for being a
Good thing and when I started to to
integrate that part of myself into my
Life and tried to start
Understanding that I could potentially
help people with my story
That was a turning point for myself
And
It's taken a lot of hard work it's taken I
needed to go through a lot of
Stuff in my life I needed to go through
all the shadows and all the stuff
That I've
Leaned on to to make life livable
I needed to go through all that and come
out on the other side to
To be here to walk up on the earth and
Be the person that I know I can be and
there's a lot of power in that and I
Don't I don't feel powerless anymore um it
was
I've been told that my entire life and I I
felt like
Something's not right I can take a
different stance
So once I started to step into that power
Was what things really started to change
Yeah
Yeah it's it's a brilliant moment that we
all get a choice to make is
Are we going to believe one thing or are
we going to believe another thing
And
We can keep trying to believe the same
thing that they've told us for forever
And we're going to keep getting the same
results you know as they say
Insanity the definition you can keep doing
it that way or
You can believe something else and I I
know
A lot of people at home will say oh that's
just arrogance or you know it
Doesn't let you be humble but it's
actually I think it's more humbling to
Believe that you have power than it is to
believe that you're powerless
Because when you know that you have power
you have this great responsibility
And to quote the all-famous uncle ben from
spider-man
With great power comes great
responsibility and we all have great power
you
Have great power I have great power we all
have it within us to be
Responsible to be response able to be able
to
Make a decision to choose to be different
and we
We forget that so fast
We forget it so fast because of everyone
around us we're too busy listening
To what everyone else has to say about us
And
That is the answer to addiction is to
reconnect with yourself to
Reconnect with the nature the nature of
yourself this powerful nature that
Can create can create wonder in this world
think about all the
Humans who have created all the great
things in the world you come from that
Stock
You have the same genes you have the same
organs you have the same body that
They all had
And you have the same ability to learn and
grow as each of them did and so
This idea of power it's something that we
uh
There's a there's a wonderful song that I
listen to where they say power is
Not gained power is remembered
And
I want everyone to remember because it's
too too
Many people are dying
Thinking that they have no power over
their lives
So
Yeah uh man I feel like this is a topic
we're gonna we're gonna dive into
Here but um
You know to close it out thinking about
the
This this situation around shame and
Use of drugs there is nothing wrong with
you there never was
Anything wrong with you me or anyone else
we chose to
Do something and we can choose to do
something else and yes it's hard and
There's suffering and there's pain and
there's things we have to go through
But
Such is life
There's no point in worrying about it it's
better just to
Get your bags and and start walking
I think we'd love for it to to get to a
point where
People
If they're going to use they feel
comfortable reaching out to someone
And
Because it's not worth dying
Exactly exactly saying hey I feel like
using
Heroin you know I'm probably going to do
this
Can you come support me or be by me and
the person not be like oh no don't do
That that's terrible but instead say okay
how are you feeling what's going on
Are you sure you want to do that I'm there
for you if you need right what
That would be so much of a better response
than someone saying
Oh let me get over there right now we got
to get you into a treatment center
We got to put you we got to we got to lock
you up essentially send you off
We got to send you off because you're
going to make a mistake
Yeah maybe it is a mistake but how are we
going to learn from these mistakes
If we don't go through them
And it's like there's so many people dying
already
You really think more people are going to
die if we change our our attitude
About this I don't think so I think it's
worth a try to see
Because I think less people will die
Yeah maybe more might have issues but
The support will be there we'll stop
demonizing people
So I think
You know what we're doing here in brazil
is really taking a holistic approach
To this and I believe that's what recovery
needs and we've talked about
Recovery being um this idea that uh
recovering something that's been
Lost
That's ourselves so returning back to to
who we are and our true
Essence and um it takes a holistic
approach it's not
Absolutely there's there's many ways to do
it
Yeah but it wasn't it wasn't ever lost
that's the funny thing it wasn't
Covered up it wasn't anything like that it
was just forgotten yep we just
Forgot for some reason we forgot life made
us forget you know there's a
Lot of there's a lot of things out there
trying to get us to forget who and
What we are
Because they want us to be focus our
attention on them so
That they get what they need
Yeah
So
Awesome awesome all right well
For those of you that are choosing to
follow the 12-step path
Awesome we're supportive of that and we
also encourage you to look
Beyond look further deeper into what it
Means to you who you are and what you want
to be and for those of you that
Are seeking something more exploring
something more
You can come talk to us come to brazil
learn watch the
Podcast learn more how these conversations
talk to your friends start
Questioning what you've been told right
start questioning
Who you think you are and then only then
will
You discover what's true
So thanks for watching today we hope you
enjoyed this this.
This the Nekawa podcast charles Johnston
here is your host here with dj
One of our first students and will be with
us for many years to come
And
Yeah if you have comments or questions hit
us up