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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
Silvercore Podcast 170 Norma Ammo
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[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Before we get rolling, I want to take a quick moment to let everyone know that between now and October 15th, silver Core Club members have access to 40% off regular price clothing from Stoger Canada. They also get 20% off all regular priced items, plus free shipping on orders over $150. There's gonna be links in the description.
Check that one out. It's a wicked. Secondly, armament technology, makers of tangent theta, scopes of Tere scope covers of SAI optics have come out with a three MO, a micro red.site. I've been putting it through his paces. I've been seriously impressed. If you want to win one yourself, keep an eye on [00:01:00] Silver Court social media for your chance to win.
I'm pretty hard on my gear, and you've probably noticed that to protect it. I've been running the nut cases and there's a good reason why they're Canadian made. They're highly robust and Silver Court Club members get 30% off. Finally, if you want a Sure Fire Way to win some Silver Core swag, it's super easy.
Simply leave a review on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot, email that in to info@silvercore.ca. Put your address in there, and I'm gonna send you off some Silver Core stickers. Now, without further ado, let's get on with this episode. He's the storyteller behind one of the most respected names in ammunition carrying Norma's 120 year tradition into the future with a precision that mirrors his own life.
Whether it's shaping a global brand or honing the art of fencing, or studying the subtleties of wine as a sommelier in [00:02:00] training, his attention to detail is what sets him apart. Welcome to the Silver Core Podcast y ton.
[00:02:08] Jonas Hellentin: Thank you, Travis. Thank you, Travis, that that was like an awesome introduction. Well, and have a little practice, you know?
Yeah. It's a humble, sweet, you know, this is. Yeah, you really nice to be here, you know? Oh yeah.
[00:02:23] Travis Bader: I'm glad you're able to make the time and I've had a little bit of practice with that name. I was on AI trying to figure out how to say it properly. I wanted to make sure I had at least some Swedish intonation as I did it.
I'm sure the purists will call me out.
[00:02:38] Jonas Hellentin: I think it sound really fine. Yeah. I think you had some time to practice also being in Sweden, a couple of you know, a couple of months ago.
[00:02:45] Travis Bader: Yeah. That was so much fun. That was a good trip. My wife and I went down there. We got to meet with you. We did the whole factory tour and I so.
Um, couple years ago I did a float hunt down the Fraser River here in [00:03:00] British Columbia, and I have an old whitewater raft from my whitewater rafting days and I thought, well, let's put it in Another friend who came, he's search and rescue and he borrowed a rowing frame for the raft. And so there's three of us.
We go down, we put in up a hundred kilometers up, and we do a hundred kilometers down this river looking for sheep. And I thought this would be fantastic. I'm gonna bring a camera, I'm gonna film stuff. And I've got a few hours of beautiful scenery of whitewater rapids of animals. And, but when I finished up, I looked at this, I'm like, what can I do with this?
And I was talking to Jesse Rudin and he was the cameraman for Jim Shockey, a very prominent Canadian, uh, personality in the hunting world. And he says, Travis, you got two hours of B-roll footage. And I made the same mistake when I went over to Sweden and I got a couple hours of B-roll footage. So I thought, well, if you and I sit down now, 'cause Jesse's like, did you have some talking head?
Like, were you [00:04:00] on the side of the river? And did you just say, Hey, how's it going? What are you excited about? He says, you can interject all of that stuff and you can make. A movie outta that. I'm like, okay. So what I've done, and I'm letting all the listeners in on this one, 'cause this is a little different than how most of the podcasts go, but I've got 19 specially calibrated questions that I'm gonna be working in into this podcast and so that we can turn pieces of this podcast into a video production and they get to see what I saw when I was in these at right.
A Alma's force. Alma's force, yeah. S al s force. Oma force,
[00:04:36] Jonas Hellentin: yeah. Yeah, yeah,
[00:04:38] Travis Bader: yeah. That was a cool factory, eh?
[00:04:41] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. Yeah. It's uh, it's uh, it's one of a kind, you know, it's, it's just like a small, you know, Swiss army knife. You get everything, you know, built as an ammunition factory, you know, 'cause the old factory was basically just a bunch of houses.
And I think that ems, a lot of, you know, uh, factories in the industry, you know, big facilities, small [00:05:00] facilities. But, but, uh, in the seventies they actually tore everything down and they built a new factory where you can basically, you know, follow the whole manufacturing process for, from, from, from, uh, case to, to bullet, to loading, to, you know, ballistics.
Everything is in the same house. And you basically just walk the corridor around the whole facility. So, so, and even get the powder storage on the, on the, in the attic.
[00:05:26] Travis Bader: Yeah. Well you guys are, you guys are specifically set up on a lake there, aren't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:05:31] Jonas Hellentin: yeah. Exactly. Because if, if it, if it's, you know, if, if the powder blows, then it shouldn't, you know, it shouldn't go into the village, just, you know, aim towards the lakes. So reinforced walls in every direction except for the, for the lake, you know, that type corrugate, you know, steel.
So, so it ha It never happened though. It never happened, but, you know, knock, knock
[00:05:55] Travis Bader: on wood. Yeah. I saw the safety measures that you guys take over there, but you've, you've basically [00:06:00] built a shaped charge with a, uh, with a safety zone in behind in the lake.
[00:06:04] Jonas Hellentin: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. So
[00:06:06] Travis Bader: if, if you wanted to build a brand new factory in Sweden, that would probably be hard to do nowadays, wouldn't it?
Like you guys are probably I
[00:06:13] Jonas Hellentin: think so. I think so. I mean, we, we, in the last couple of years, the, the, the manufacturing volumes such just. Because of the, you know, geopolitical, you know, situation in the world. Of course. Um, and, and suddenly you run into all those, you know, the permits, you know, the, the, the sound of the machines, the, the, the water treatment, all those kind of things, which, you know, you need to level up and scale up everything basically.
And suddenly you hit the, all those, you know, marks, which you, you never been close to before. So, so, mm-hmm. We, we we're not a very big factory. I mean, if you, if you, you know, coming, if you look at your, you know. For example, the, the US US brands, for example. It's like completely different, uh, [00:07:00] different, uh, story.
But, but, but, uh, but, but for us it's, it's, it's a big thing. You know? It's, it's, it's, we we're in the transition period now since a couple of years back, and it's very exciting.
[00:07:12] Travis Bader: Well, some of the things that stuck out to me was, uh, twofold. Number one, the, the, the slickness of the operation, how it was set up, all the machinery, all the automation, but then the human eye that's still looking at all of these different pieces of the puzzle.
[00:07:29] Jonas Hellentin: That's true. That's true. That's, that's true. You know, so it's still a lot of manual, uh. Work still a lot of manual control in the factory, even though we upgraded all the electronic, you know, so, so like, because for us, you know, doing ammunition, the, the hard part is just not doing, you know, one cartridge that does, you know, perfect, but, but doing millions of cartridges the same way.
The consistency in the manufacturing process, maintaining that, you know, um, accuracy and position in, in every [00:08:00] detail is, is the hard thing. And, and there's the, the combination between the human eye and, and, and, and, um, and many years of, of experience, et cetera, uh, together with, with new, new camera technology and everything, uh, is, is I think a proven, you know, good that good, gives good results.
[00:08:21] Travis Bader: Well, yeah. Here in North America, so the Norma name is well known and, uh, the Norma Brass is highly praised. Everyone says, oh, I got Norma Brass. This is good. Right? And over in Europe. So I did. It was the first time I ever that I'd done a driven hunt. And that's completely new to me from the where I hunt and how I hunt in British Columbia.
And for people listen to this who don't know what a driven hunt is, that's where they, uh, the hunters will work with dogs, and the dogs will go into the forest and they'll drive out the, uh, the game [00:09:00] animals and then the hunters, I mean, they don't have a, they don't have a bunch of time. It's not like over here where you stock up and you're waiting and you're watching and being super quiet.
But holy crow, is it effective. And so we, we did a driven hunt. Everybody over there knows Norma. Everybody over there shooting Norma. Um, I'm wondering for the people in our North American market here, what makes Norma different from other ammunition makers?
[00:09:29] Jonas Hellentin: Well, I, I think, uh, I mean. Look, look, looking at the, you know, Nordic market where, as you say, we are very well known.
It, it, it's about, you know, um, it's about, you know, having, having these sort of hero products that, uh, has been, you know, developed exactly for that purpose. You know, what, what, how we hunt in, in Nordics, basically it's like medium to big game moose, you know, wild boars, those kind of things running around in the forest, uh, quick shots and [00:10:00] everything is, is, is hunted for the meat.
So, so, um, there's the, and, and so that sort of reliability in the, in the ammunition is I think what, what, what, what sets us apart. You know, it's when, when you, when you ask a ask a hunter on, on the street or in the forest, you know, why, why you shoot normal, well, you know, it, it just delivers that precision and reliability and everything.
So you don't have to think about, you know. The actual ammunition. I, I think you have to worry more about yourself. Self. Self and where you're aiming at, basically. And, and I, I think that's, you know, it just does its job because it's like being Swedish, you know, we are not very, we are not very outspoken extrovert, you know, people, but, but you know, we try to do our job.
[00:10:49] Travis Bader: Yeah.
[00:10:49] Jonas Hellentin: You
[00:10:49] Travis Bader: know, well, you know, that's funny. It says you do your job weren't, weren't you? The, uh, the brain behind the, the marketing [00:11:00] campaign of basically, we've done all the work up to here, the precision, all you have to do now is pick that spot. Wasn't that your campaign? Yeah. It,
[00:11:08] Jonas Hellentin: it was, we we're in a, in a situation, we're taking over the brand again, you know, from, from.
Going from a, from a, uh, um, you know, coming from a big group of, of, of, you know, a lot of brands and, and, and, and they took a decision to, to take, take the brand back to Newarks and, and do something about it, to, to internationalize it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I remember, um, you know, because I was quite new to the company at that point, and I had this, the people down in Germany saying that, well, you know, they try to explain Norman, you know, with all due respect, I, I've been hunting with, with Norma since 95.
And, and so, so, you know, from a Hunter's perspective, I, I was quite familiar with the product and, and the brand. And we think about it. I had this guy saying that, well, we, you know, we we're the Red Bull of the ammunition industry. And I was like, really? Yeah, I've, I've never thought of [00:12:00] it that way because I, I think, you know, uh, I would say we we're like the microbrewery of the ammunition industry.
I think that that speaks more to it. You know, we, we are. We are, even if we want to think big and, and we start, you know, to, to look at it from a, from a global perspective. And, and, you know, a lot of thanks for why, why we're here has been, you know, the ties with, uh, with, uh, US brands and, and, and, and, you know, overseas, um, you know, partners, uh, during NOS and Weatherby, et cetera, et cetera.
They, they, they are the ones who ha has helped us coming to this, to this point. So, but, but we're still, you know, we're still small scale and we, we, we we're doing it, you know, pretty small and, and, and. Slow, uh, actually, and, and, and, uh, but we take, take a lot of time and effort and, and, and, and, um, dedication into to our products and the manufacturing process, process.
So, so for me, you know, the, the, the sort of tagline now, it's up to you. It, [00:13:00] you know, it came quite naturally because we, we spent all these years and 20 plus years of, of, of coming to this where we are right now, where people trust us and, and, and, and we don't have to, you know, not have to scream out our name and everything, but, but there's, there's a lot of, you know, 120 years behind, you know, our products basically.
And, and when, when we done our part, you know, then, then it's up to the hunter. You know, we want to push our product, you know, as far as we can. So, so that we can safely hand it over to, to the hunter saying that, you know, you know, we've done our part. Now it's up to you.
[00:13:35] Travis Bader: Well, there's a lot of confidence there.
And, you know, it was interesting that, uh. So I'd never done a driven hunt before. But looking at the cultural differences as well, I mean in Canada, in the hunts that I'll do, if you're going out with a group to hunt, that means everybody will eat together at night, they'll sleep in camp, and they all go out to different places.
Like if you want to have [00:14:00] success, you're not all sitting in the same spot. You, you go and check out different places. And in on this driven hunt, what I thought was really interesting was how, uh. People in Sweden, I don't know how to say it better, other than they seem to operate with a hive mind.
Everybody works together in a community very well and they're always is like, here, this is my idea. Yeah. What are your thoughts as opposed to here? As opposed to here's what we're doing. Yeah. There's, there's always this, um, it seems like there's an underlying tone of how do we work together in order to achieve something better.
[00:14:37] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. I I, I think that's a perfect explanation. It's, it's a lot about the, the, it's a lot about the community and, you know, it's a lot about, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot about teamwork and, and you know, when, when, when we, you know, when we talk in the organization, when we speak to each other in the organization, we, we very rarely use.
You know, ourself as a pronoun, you know, [00:15:00] I, this is my idea, this is, you know, it's mm-hmm. You know, even, even if it's is my idea, it's still our team's, you know, effort that, that, that took us here. So, so, you know, we, we rarely use, like, I pro pronouns, we, you know, go, usually go like, we, you know, I, I noticed that, et cetera, et cetera.
And because it's also, you know, it feels a little bit, you know, for, for Swed it feels a little bit like stepping out, saying like, I, it, it basically, for us, it's like, well, what about all the other people that, that, you know, that contributed to this in one way or the other? You know, it's, you know, you don't wanna forget them.
And it's a little bit, you know, we, we look a little bit, you know. To people who, who start speaking like that. So, so it's, but sometimes it's good, you know, I, I, you know, on the hand I really like, you know, the North American culture also where, you know, you, you basically put yourself in, in the first room.
And I, I think that's also, you know, having a little bit of that too is maybe not that either for sweet,
[00:15:56] Travis Bader: well, it's, it's different culturally for sure. Um, [00:16:00] there, there was a word and I forget what it was in, in Swedish. Yeah. But I asked because I kept hearing the same word come up. Was that the end of the sentence?
It was like essu or something like this. It was basically, and, and you, it was like a question. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:16:13] Jonas Hellentin: yeah.
[00:16:13] Travis Bader: Well, what, what is the
[00:16:14] Jonas Hellentin: word? Yeah. Um, what could it be? It could be, uh, uh, or do.
[00:16:22] Travis Bader: That might've been it because it just kept coming up at the end. It basically meant, and you, so they'd say something and you, and you basically like, like, here's my statement, but I'm not totally married to it.
If you got something better to put in.
[00:16:34] Jonas Hellentin: Exactly. I think that's the, I think that's a perfect observation. Very sharp, you know, for, and sometimes, you know, you need someone from the outset. I actually see it and, you know, put it in words, but I, you know, we usually tag along that also because, you know, we don't want the full responsibility or what we said either, you know, so, you know, if we, if we like to totally far out there and, you know, do that, it's nice to, you know, just open the door, you know, in the end say that, well, you know, it is.
I can [00:17:00] slip out here, you know, if I, yeah. I screw up. I, I have a back door here, you know, it's like.
[00:17:07] Travis Bader: So I was, um, hunting in an area called, uh, Solaron for the listeners. You, um, historic Island in, uh, in Sweden. There with, uh, Viking Graves, like literally there's, we're on a fox hunt. They said, oh, go stand on these rocks over here.
I, I'm like this. This looks unusual. Like this is a manmade thing. He says, oh, it's probably a Viking grave. I'm like, okay. Interesting. The history is crazy. Yeah. But, but the other thing that really stood out is, um, traditionally in North America, hunting is a very male dominated activity. Yeah. Yes. Uh, women are really coming in and, uh, in, in big numbers.
And there's a push from, uh, from companies, from hunter groups and all the rest to help make it more inclusive. But I don't see that push over in Sweden because it's already, the [00:18:00] women, the men, everyone's got their roles. Everyone's equally comfortable and confident. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was really cool.
[00:18:06] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. Uh, we, we don't, you know, we, we, we very rarely, you know, put people out actively. It's like, it's not, I, I think, you know, I think the, the hunting world also, it's because as you said, it's quite. Male dominated and quite traditional. But I think also, you know, I mean, it's not that, it's not that, it's like a society living outside of the other society here.
So, you know, whatever, you know, as you know, Sweden has ha has come a long way in, you know, equality and everything. So we we're actually not pushing, my feeling is more that, you know, not, not, not all, you know, uh, women are, are spending basically a half of a half of the year and, and, you know, waking up at three o'clock in the morning and, and, and then spending the last couple of hours in, in the, in the slaughterhouse and then go to bed and the nap again, three o'clock.
And you're basically, you're, you're [00:19:00] completely devastated at the end of, of, of the hunting. Well,
[00:19:05] Travis Bader: the women that were hunting with us were all in for it. Yeah. They were a hundred percent in, uh, neat farming community. Yeah. And just the, when you talk about using every part of the animal, I mean the whole thing's, a process, how quickly the hunt can take place, how quickly and efficiently.
Everybody works together. They got the, uh, at a, um, uh, a red deer and, uh, take, take it out in a sled. What, what were we hunting for? So you guys have moose, you've got elk, and I think of course you got red deer and, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, moose and elk are different for you than they are for us in North America.
So our, our moose, we call 'em have the big palmate antlers. Yeah. And you guys call 'em elk, which is probably more, uh, true to like the Latin name is [00:20:00] ssis ssis for moose. Yeah. Which is probably where elk comes from. Yeah. And then, and then you call your, your elk, which we have one big backwards beam with all the tines coming off.
You call them moose, if I'm not mistaken. Oh,
[00:20:13] Jonas Hellentin: uh, we, we, no, we call, we, we actually call, you know, the, the, the different types of, of, you know, uh, antlers. Yeah, yeah. Antlers. It is just, it's just, we have two types of, of it, you know, in Sweden. So it's, it's, we don't actually call 'em, you know, in Sweden we say el, so it's elk, you know, elk basically.
Gotcha. But, but we, we are, you know, it's, it's a little bit like, uh, football and soccer in, in Europe, Europe. So I get it. Yeah. We learn, we, we say, say football while, while it means soccer, because it's completely different, you know, so I would say it's that when we speak, you know, English, we would say moose.
Um, but, but, um. Yeah, but that, that's, that's the traditional, [00:21:00] really traditional Swedish, you know, hunt. You know, a lot of, you know, a lot of our hunting culture stems from that. But on the other hand, as you go a little bit further south, you know, the driven hunt with wild boars, deer hunts, et cetera, et cetera, that, that, that just sort of takes over, uh, a little bit.
So, so, um, so, so, but I, I would say a lot of our, our, our, you know, uh, we identify a lot with the moose sound, which is, yeah.
[00:21:29] Travis Bader: Speaking of this heritage, can you share a bit of a story of how Norma started and what's kept it relevant? Yeah. For over a century.
[00:21:38] Jonas Hellentin: Oh, that's a big one. That is, that's a big one. Yeah.
Yeah. Uh, well, you know, initially in, in, in the end of the, uh, 18th century, it was, um, yeah, it was a Norwegian company. It was the capital brothers called, uh, Enger Brothers. And they, uh, they had their company Norma, uh, [00:22:00] in, uh, close to the o slow, the, the capital of Norway. Um, to make a long story short, you know, they, they, they managed to industrialize the modern, you know, spits, bullet in, in production.
And, and so they actually got some success with that, that type of, you know. Former times match type bullet basically. And, and, uh, with the manufacturing process that in all honesty, it didn't work that well, but, but they, they still, you know, managed to make a factory out of it. Uh, anyhow, so, so the Swedish shooting Movement movement, uh, in, in Sweden, uh, so they, uh, they basically contacted them saying that, well, you know, we would really love, love to have you a six and a half, you know, millimeter, uh, over here also.
So, you know, could you, you know, please, because I guess, you know, export things know it didn't exist the same way does Yeah. They said, so they, you know, [00:23:00] hopped on the train in Oslo and Oslo's quite close to the Swedish border. And if you go like. Completely straight, you know, to the east, you, you cross the border and, and you land in a small town called She Bay, where a tobacco company had taken the best spot already hopped on the train again, next stop was almost forced, which is basically nothing in the forest, you know, it's got a lake, it's got forest, you know.
Um, they jumped off there and said, well, you know, let's build it here. It's close to the border. We can, you know, you know, it's got the railway, it's got, you know, water, power, whatever. Um, and they established a factory and, and started manufacturing bullets basically. And, and as the years went, you know, we, we, um, we actually made some, some good success.
We started as a bullet company. Mm. And, and um, through the years, we got really good at also the, the cases, uh, which I think still is one of the, you know, one of our biggest footprints in the industry. We managed to hold onto that [00:24:00] sort of quality and consistency in, in case manufacturing. And, and at certain point, I think in the fifties, we still, we actually had like a very, very early version of, of circular, uh, sort of, um, what do you call it?
In, in English, where, where, um, the hunters, the local hunters who, when they shot the, the, the, the, you know, they took back the she to factory and, and we recalibrated Oh, recycled reloaded and, and recycle them. Yeah. And, and they get to buy them for, for a cheaper price reloaded, you know, from the factory.
Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, huh, that's a neat little. And, and we, you know, at that time we didn't understand what, what recycling was. No. All that. It was just very efficient and, you know, logical, practical, I think. But anyhow, uh, so through the years, uh, you know, production grew and, uh, uh, in the fifties we also started, you know, having visitors from, from the states.
I think that's where we sort of [00:25:00] catapulted the whole, you know, uh, business to where it is today basically. Mm. We are together with Weatherby. We developed the Weatherby calibers, uh, Magnum calibers, for example. Um, we, we, uh, we, um, we developed a lot of, you know, uh, with bonding tech technology together with Nosler, for example.
Uh, so, so, you know, it goes on and on with, with those kind of things. And we actually managed to, to establish some sort of reputation in, in, in states at that time. And I, I think we, we still, you know, you. We still have a lot to thank, you know, the, the us you know, partners from, from those years for, for, you know, having, you know, elevated us to that, you know, position.
Because it also pushed our, our obviously our, our brand and history. Uh, we created a lot, you know, on the way we created a lot of our own calibers, uh, developed our own calibers, uh, you know, for, for, for mat shooting. Um, [00:26:00] mm-hmm. And, and then later on into the military, you know, three, you know, three, three, uh, 3, 3 8, Norma Mag, you know, 300 Norma Mag, you know, the socom, you know, ca calibers.
So, so through the years we, we, we, we have been there, you know, doing stuff, you know, being, being, trying to, not, not in a super big way, but, but still, I think in a consistent, you know, high quality. I think we should, should be proud of and proud of, you know, so, so, so that's how, but the, the actually hunting part is something that has been, you know, very, uh, with us for a very long time.
It's just, you know, in modern days with, with guys like me, I try to bring it up and make a story about it. But, but, but we, we since, I mean since we are basically in the middle of, of, of traditional Swedish moose country, you know, that this half of the factories, you know, every time this year when the moose sun starts, you know, production just go drops and then, [00:27:00] or, or or production managers are running around going like, no, it's this time of the year everyone just leaves the factory.
And, and it is like that. And it's been like that for, for ages, you know? That's funny. And, um, yeah, so it's. So I, I think it's just, uh, you know, maybe, um, last couple of decades where we, you know, we, we try to capitalize a little bit on it trying to, you know, uh, explain, you know, a little bit what, what our, our identity and where we come from and why the, the bullet and things are developed the way they, they are.
But, but it's been with us very, you know, naturally, I think through the year.
[00:27:39] Travis Bader: Well, what sort of values and traditions have carried forward over the years that are still alive in the factory today?
[00:27:47] Jonas Hellentin: That's a good question. Uh, I think, um, um, for me, who, who, who was not born and raised up there, um, uh, um, uh, the marketing office of, [00:28:00] of, of, of, um, marketing office of, of, of Norma is actually located, uh, 300 kilometers south of, of the factory, which is.
Very, you know, it's first time ever that we actually had have remote offices, which is like, uh, yeah. Pretty cool. But yeah, it's, it's the first time ever we broke some new ground there. But, but, uh, so seeing it from the out being an out outside is me. I can, I can definitely see that, that, that, you know, having a factories that's, you know, not very close to big cities, um, basically out, you know, in nature somewhere, you have people who has been working there for, for generations basically.
And, and, and, and it's not very uncommon for, for people that worked the like 30, you know, 40 years, uh, wow. They start there, they retire, et cetera, et cetera. And then I think that brings sort of a little bit like [00:29:00] family feeling. I, I would say, uh, my, my, my. I, I would say that, and I think you, you, you felt it too when you were up in the factory.
People are, I did extremely friendly and, and it's almost like a family, uh, family sort of, uh, culture. Mm-hmm. Uh, we are a family up there. We, we, we, um, we um, uh, we live and breathe what we do in, in the days. We, there are days we don't love going to the office, but, but we, it's, it's part of our, our life. We, we, we know people in the, uh, factory privately and, and, and, um, both online and offline sort of, but, but, um, I think that's sort of family culture gives some sort of pride, but also, uh, responsibility to, to what you're doing.
Mm-hmm. Uh, I, I think you could feel it very, uh, clearly and, and then me as an outer, I definitely feel it. There's a certain pride, you know, you, you don't. Um, you, you Norm is not the place [00:30:00] where you start working and in a couple of years where you start working at the, you know, other faculty, some 'cause we are basically it in,
[00:30:09] Travis Bader: well, it, it was exuding that from the walls.
I could feel that even me as an outsider coming and was made to feel like family Yeah. When I was in there and, you know, just, just chatting with everybody. The people work in the machines, the people at the, the lunch table, the, the people in the office booths. It's, it's a, uh, it's a, it's a neat environment and you don't find that everywhere.
Yeah.
[00:30:33] Jonas Hellentin: And
[00:30:34] Travis Bader: people
[00:30:34] Jonas Hellentin: are very, very friendly and, and they're very, very proud of what they're doing, you know? Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's, it, it's our baby basically. You know, it's, you know, we, we really try to take care of it.
[00:30:47] Travis Bader: I wonder are there multi-generational families that work in that factory? Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely. Definitely.
[00:30:53] Jonas Hellentin: Huh. So, yeah. So, so, um, it, it, [00:31:00]
[00:31:01] Travis Bader: so why don't you walk me through what it looks like, the full journey of a cartridge at Norma from breast cups to the finish round. If you take me a little, little bit of a walkthrough for people who haven't been there to see it, uh, what's that look like?
[00:31:16] Jonas Hellentin: Well, we basically only buy three things in, in the cartridge, which is, you know, the, the, the brass cup. We, we don't actually make the brass cup, you know, uh, on site, uh, for, for various reasons. Um, and, and, and we, we don't, you know, produce manufacture powder or, or the primer. Everything else we do on site. So, so we take it, you know, from the cup in the, in the, in the case department, which is, you know.
To the left when you come up in the factory and, and, um, so you have the case department where, you know, we, we make more or less 115 hundred 30 calibers on a regular basis, which I think is quite a lot. Um, [00:32:00] mostly civilian, but, but obviously some military and police, you know, calibers. Um, uh, so what, what what you do is, is basically take this cap and, and you make it longer.
You, you aim for the right, um, thickness, uh, or, or wall thickness of the case, which is not the same, you know, through the case. It's, it's, it's, it varies depending on, you know, what kind of caliber and what, what it's supposed to do. And, and, and, um, we form it and, and, and we, we, you know, when we're done with it, it goes to, to the, um, to the warehouse.
Then you have on the opposite side of the factory, we, we produce the bullets, which is basically made in the same, uh, way except for, you know, us putting, putting, lead, pour into it. Um, but otherwise it's, you know, we have a, you have a brass cup and you, you, you know, make it longer and you form it and you, you know, everything.
And, and you put, and, and then we'd make everything from [00:33:00] match bullets to, to, to open soft points or, or, uh, hollow point, bolt tape, et cetera. And then that also goes into the warehouse. And at certain point, you know, you know, in, in the planning, we, we, uh, we, we assemble these components together in the loading department, which is also in the factory in the other side.
So, so, uh. And then we loaded the packet and everything, and then through the whole process, we, we, we used the ballistics department, which is in the basement mm-hmm. With a hundred meter, uh, ranges, test ranges where we continuously shoot, you know, all the batches that we are manufacturing on the floor about.
Um, uh, so, so, um, and, and, um, that's way we, we, we, we make around 100 million quarters a year, so it's, it's not a super [00:34:00] big, you know, production facility, but, but for us, it's been a lot more, a couple of decades ago.
[00:34:09] Travis Bader: Well, a hundred million is a pretty big number. You know, it's, people are, are always looking for, if they're loading their ammunition, they've.
Got their ideas or tips or tricks for just maxing out accuracy and which part of the process is most overlooked? In your opinion, what part of the process is most overlooked or misunderstood by shooters? Oh, that's a good one.
[00:34:30] Jonas Hellentin: Uh, I think there's two, two actually. Um, uh, on a general level, um, um, on a general level, um, um, factory loaded ammunition can never compare or compete with it hand loaded.
You know, you hand load because you want the consist not only the consistency, but, but, you know, uh, sort of the perfect optimization for, for, for your weapon system. Uh, the [00:35:00] difference with the, or the hard part or overlooked part with, with factory loaded ammunition is that we have to make, make ammunition, uh, an ammunition that that works in as many various types.
Weapon systems, uh, as possible. Um, so, so if you want to be, you know, blunt, uh, uh, you know, you could say that this is like the, you know, you aim for the perfect compromise, basically, it needs to shoot well in everything. And, and, and people who are, are, you know, avid shooters or, or you know, they, they know that, you know, for whatever reason, that you cannot really explain, it goes perfect imperfectly in this barrel.
And then you move it to your, your, your, you know, neighbor's barrel and it just shoots, you know, just spreads. And you cannot really explain why. I think this is one of the, the, the challenges with factory, with factory loaded ammunition, that, that it actually takes some time to develop the loads and, and, and the, the whole, you know, processes [00:36:00] so that in the end, you know, um, we are, we are dealing with a product which, um, never get any praise if it works.
You know, we, we, we only, we only. Yeah, we only, you know, we only notice it when it doesn't work for whatever reason. So, so our job is to just, you know, try to stay below radar as much as possible. So that, that is number one thing, which is I, I think, mostly overlooked. Um, I think the second one is, is, and this, this is a tough one.
Um, uh, it's, it's that, you know, when, when we are, when we are doing tests on, on, on, on very various, you know, bullets and loads, et cetera, et cetera, we, we, we are dealing with, you know, a lot of, lot of data. Um, uh, the, the average hunter, uh, puts that out a box of, you know, you know, new cartridges and he loads them and out comes, uh, [00:37:00] deer and he shoots them and deer war.
And, and you know, obviously it's not, it's not your fault. It's never your fault. It's the ammunition. Definitely. Maybe, you know, if not the ammunition, maybe the, the weapon, I don't know. It's, but anyway, it's not my fault. And, and yes, but, but, but that is okay. That is okay. The problem is that, you know, you might even take two shots at, at the deer and it behaves a little bit different.
The problem is your perception of how the product works is based on very, very little data. Um, you know, how that hits, even if you are very, very sure exactly how you hit the deer and what, what range, et cetera. You, you can't really know because you, you're, you're basing your perception on, on very little data.
You know, let's say we, we, um, uh, so, so, you know, we, we, we, um, developing a new product [00:38:00] and in the factory now. And, and we wanted to test, uh, like a coating on, on, on, on, on the, on the bullet. So we spent 3000 shots, uh, just testing that coating, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and
[00:38:18] Travis Bader: big difference.
[00:38:19] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. And that, that was just one, one aspect of, of, of the bullet.
Um, so I'm not, I'm not saying that, that, you know, you are wrong or whatever, but, but it, it's very different. It is very difficult sometimes to, to discuss, you know, ammunition. Because, because we, we, we usually, and we don't wanna, you know, it's not that we wanna put everyone down, but, but we do a lot of testing, you know?
Mm-hmm. When we, when we or our competitors, et cetera, put the bullet out there. Uh, 'cause most manufacturers, serious manufacturers do the exactly the same thing. We, there are tons of, of, of, um. [00:39:00] There's is, are tons of data supporting the fact that this product will most times work, you know? Mm-hmm. So, so, um, but uh, but you, you still need to have that sort of, um, uh, be humble to the fact that, you know, when, when people, people are not firing 3000 shops on a hunt, you know, it's, it's impossible.
So, so, well, that's it. Yeah. So even if, yeah, trying to bridge that sort of, those two realities is, is sometimes, you know, quite difficult. 'cause you don't also want to go into too much details about things, but, but we, we know that, that the product works and, and, but, but sometimes it's, you know, whatever the deal was running, it was, you know, I don't know, stressed or, you know, you were stressed.
I, I don't know. But, but, but it's still, you know, those two realities are something clashing. And, and I think that's, that's a challenge.
[00:39:55] Travis Bader: What do they say? The poor marksman already has their excuses lined up before they pull the, [00:40:00] pull the trigger. Right? Yeah. And it's, but it is funny. It's, it is human nature to blame everything but yourself first.
Yeah, I remember, uh, there was a, I've been
[00:40:08] Jonas Hellentin: there too, you know, I've been there two thousands of times. You know, it's
[00:40:11] Travis Bader: human nature.
[00:40:12] Jonas Hellentin: Exactly, exactly.
[00:40:14] Travis Bader: I remember. Um, so before Silver Core Outdoors and doing all the training was Silver Core Gun Works, and I would do repair and maintenance for armored car companies.
I had every single armored car company in British Columbia at one point, uh, bc, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, Ontario was doing for multinational, uh, different law enforcement agencies and one. Government agency, which I won't mention their name on here, but, um, it was funny. They had a, uh, bunch of guns that they left in a safe and, uh, in a moist environment.
And the, uh, the guns became corroded and oxidized. I'll say that without giving away, if I say what actually happened, people will be able to piece together the agency because of the type of gun [00:41:00] I, anyways, so they said, well, can, can you fix this for us? Said, yeah, no problem. We can, we can strip 'em, refinish 'em, uh, go through the whole process of what's required.
And then they're, we like it, they say, can you do our repair and maintenance ongoing? Sure, not a problem. So did that for them. One time during a training exercise, I get a phone call and they're like, you gotta come down here right now. You, you did something wrong and the gun's not going bang. It's not wor, it's not grouping well or whatever.
There. Anyways, I, I, I show up, I drive all the way down to their training location and I show up and, okay, let's see the gun, what's going on? Talk with the instructor. And I said, so you've test fired this? He's like, well, no. He said, well, the student told me. I said, well, so you got somebody who doesn't know how to shoot that's just coming in, that you're teaching 'em how to do it.
And they say there's an issue with the gun. Got it. Okay. So, um, well let's try it out. Do you wanna test fire? He's like, ah, the instructor didn't want to do it. He gives it to me. You test fire. And thankfully I was just off a, a week long instructor training course [00:42:00] that I was doing in the States, and so still feeling pretty fresh and and comfortable.
They put the target all the way out to the end, had a nice tight grouping. Everything works good. And then I have to do the song and dance to allow the instructor to save face, not look bad in front of the class, but also like, come on, give your head a shake. We always double check the human factor before calling in for special services here.
Yeah, but it's um. Yeah, that that human factor's kind of funny. Uh, and, and people don't want to stand up and say, wasn't me. And when, when you talk about that large, uh, number, if I hunt and I get one or two animals every single year and I do that successfully for 10 years and I've got 20 animals and I want say I'm an expert, it's like people teaching gun fighting.
Well, you know, I was in a lethal force encounter and I survived, so I'm an expert. Yeah. Well that's one. That's one. Right. It's really hard to be an expert on that data set.
[00:42:56] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah.
[00:42:57] Travis Bader: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah, so, so, so, [00:43:00] you know, we, we are in the business where, where, you know, we just, you know, we just want as little hassle as possible, you know, that, that, that's, that's the whole, you know, thing.
We don't have to come out, you know, like that. But, but if, if our, you know, if, if, if our product works that then, you know, there's no fuss about it at all. You know, so, and, and that's a good day. That's a good day. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:25] Travis Bader: So what, what sort of innovations and, and machinery would make Norma stand out?
[00:43:32] Jonas Hellentin: Uh, or process? Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think, you know, one of the processes that we, we really managed to, to, to, to, uh, master, I would say is, is our bonding technology. We are, we are quite proud of that. And these, these are actually things, you know, because when, when talking about quality of, of, of cartridges and et cetera, I, I, I do, you know, I, I do acknowledge that that.
All serious manufacturers do ammunition that works, you know, [00:44:00] and they, they work perfectly fine, and then they should, you know, more or less accurate, et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and so, so, you know, everyone's doing a good job in the business. So, so now we're coming to, to just minor details. You know, some, some, some bullet campus might, might make, you know better, you know, match bullets or whatever.
Match sign bullets, et cetera, et cetera. Whatever. Uh, we, we have really, you know, through the years, been able to, to, to hone the process of, of, of bonding technology. And, and the reason why we put so much effort into that is that, that that's the way Scandinavian hunt. Basically. You want, we have big animals, uh, the moose, for example, we're big animals area, and in the end we want to preserve the meat.
You know, you, you want to take the animal down, but, but not, you know, destroy too much meat, uh, in inside of it. Mm-hmm. And so you want to, to create bullets that, that do a lot of, you know, um, have a lot of, you [00:45:00] know, um, uh, good terminal ballistics, um, a lot of energy delivery, a lot of penetration, et cetera.
And, and those bulls usually traditional, will, you know, break up, you know, destroy everything, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but, but with the bonding technology, they, they hold together, they controlled the expansion, you know. You get, you know, if you get a good shot or you know, more or less good shot, you, you're gonna take the animal down and you're still gonna, you know, be able to, to, you know, you, you, you, you, you killed it.
Respect, you know, respectfully, if you wanna like that. Sure. Ethically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and you can still, you know, make use of all the meat, et cetera, et cetera. And, and for us that, that's a very, very important stuff. So, so we, that process, um, uh, that process we have used in two bullets, the orx bullets, which has been with, with us since, you know, um, uh, 95.
And then it's still been used, you know. A lot, [00:46:00] a lot. And, and now in the, mm-hmm. In the bond strike where we stretch the ranges a little bit, you know, we, we, we, you know, touched up the, the velocity and, and, and accuracy on longer distance, et cetera, but it's still, you know, perfect bullet. You know, that, that, that holds together even a short distance, even if it, you know, penetrates and opens up on, on, on, on very low velocities.
[00:46:23] Travis Bader: So with over a hundred million rounds being produced every year, how do you ensure consistency and precision at each stage?
[00:46:32] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. Well, well, that, that comes down to, to the ballistics department who, who basically shoots some, I, I don't know how many lot. So it's a, during production, each day from each slot that we are making, uh, they pull out, you know, bullets, continuously shoot them.
Pressure, accuracy, pressure, accuracy, you know, uh. Uh, pull out forces, et cetera, et cetera. And, [00:47:00] and, and they're continuously checked. Uh, and yeah, well, basically that, that's how we do it. And, and, and we, we do also, we do also, uh, you know, take, take, you know, two, two, uh, uh, um, what you call it, um, to our, our, uh, manager's frustration.
We, we, we, we do stop the, you know, the production at every single step. We feel that is stuck. You know, uh, you know, I I, I have had, you know, people stopping the production calling me up, you know, in marketing saying that, well, you know, the, the, the, the little, um, um, label, um, it, it's, you, you have, you probably change something there because it just sticks out, you know?
Four millimeters on the, on the pack goes below and, and just, you know, touches the text on the, on the pack. It, it just looks really shitty. I was like, you stop production because of that, you know, they're gonna, you know, they're [00:48:00] gonna hang me for that. But, but on the other hand, you know, I, I, I really respect that and I think that's part of, you know,
[00:48:09] Travis Bader: attention to detail.
Yeah,
[00:48:10] Jonas Hellentin: attention to details and also like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a little bit fun also that like, you know, that's, if, if that's the only way, you know, I, I can screw up as a, you know, marketing, you know, guide and then I, I can live with that, you know, and I will, you know, learn and do better next time.
[00:48:28] Travis Bader: Yeah.
You know, one, one thing that surprised me that I didn't know about before, which maybe, maybe it's common knowledge and I just sort of glossed over somewhere, but the, um, the recyclable material Yeah. That you use the, the plastic Yeah. Uh, yeah. Ammo holders. Yeah. Is specifically designed with wood fibers in it, and it's designed to take a spark.
Yeah. And I did a video on that and that was, I went on TikTok and man, it went through the roof. Everyone was looking at, at, at the video, lots of hits and all of a sudden tiktoks like, oh, [00:49:00] hold on a second. There's ammo here. We better stop the uh oh. Right. Yeah. So it, it went so far. Yeah. I've, I've actually got an appeal on that one that's, yeah.
Still waiting. But, um, it makes, so that was an interesting thing for me, seeing the attention to detail. Yeah. The thought process behind, not just the ammo. But the packaging and how it's put together and the uses for the hunter and how it clips off, like all these little pieces. Yeah. It's like, kinda like Apple, right?
Yeah. Yeah. You look at, uh, apple Sure. They got a great, amazing product, but look at, look at how they package it. Yeah. Like they win awards for how they package it. Look at how it all works together. They win awards for the ecosystem. Yeah. And actual,
[00:49:39] Jonas Hellentin: the sign of the inlays is also, uh, actually pad patented because, um, as you know, you know, you, you want, you know, you wanna be able to stick, you know, five quarters in, into the, you know, the inlay mm-hmm.
So that it doesn't, you know, rattle around in, in, in your pockets. You snap it off. You have five, five rounds, you can stick it in your pocket. You don't need to have like another [00:50:00] pouch or anything. Just stick it in the pocket and it doesn't, you know, rattle around and make noise when you're walking in the forest.
So, so, and they sit tight and, you know, you just, you know, open it up and, and just, you know. Load, load, load your, your magazine if you want to. But, but, so that's also part of, you know, a little bit attention to details.
[00:50:19] Travis Bader: Hmm. I think, uh, maybe I'll make a video. 'cause that was the number one thing that I saw people were, were saying that's really cool.
But man, it's hard to get outta the package. I don't know how to get it out. I've never had a problem with it. I just put my thumb on it. I press up and it pops out. So. Exactly. So maybe I got to, uh, maybe people are trying to pick it out from the, I don't know.
[00:50:39] Jonas Hellentin: I know. Take the knife and just, you know, bend it out or something.
[00:50:43] Travis Bader: Comes down to education. I got, I gotta wonder though, um, my experience on social media. Yeah. Having my, uh, the account, the, the clip locked down and I later I got a warning on the thing 'cause it was gun [00:51:00] related.
[00:51:00] Jonas Hellentin: Oh really? How,
[00:51:01] Travis Bader: how was it for you guys?
[00:51:05] Jonas Hellentin: That's a good one. Um. Uh, yeah, so, so, um, yeah, we, we do, you know, um, you know, you know, we also have to follow those kind, uh, those, the rules, et cetera.
And as you know, meta, for example, is quite, you know, uh, picky about it. Mm-hmm. Uh, we do, um, we do have, you know, uh, we do have formulated, uh, a content strategy norm up, you know, where we just, you know, uh, a lot of our content doesn't necessarily have to do with, you know, someone pulling a trigger or, or, you know, um, you know, you, you, you never see, well, you very rarely see, you know, games being taken down with a shot, you know, in our videos, et cetera.
Uh, because, because in the end, for us also, you know, I would say 99% of the hunt is, is, you know, everything else that you do except pulling the trigger. Right? And, and, and we really do enjoy [00:52:00] that. You know, I, I, and. And, you know, being out in the forest is, you know, basically the best medicine you can get. And, and mm-hmm.
And that resonates very, very well to, to, you know, I, I would say at least the Scandinavian hunter for us, you know, pulling the triggers, part of it definitely. But it's not something that we have to, you know, the, the, the sparked emotion of, of just seeing, you know, forest morning somewhere in the, in the forest, et cetera.
That's, that's, you know, for, for everyone who's been out hunting that, that's, that's the most important part. Hmm. Taking down the game is, you know, it's, it's, it's just the end of a successful day. But, but, but you know, everything else is. You know, the thing that you wanna be reminder of when you sit in your office in front of your, your computer and, you know, doing all the Excel stuff, you know.
Yeah. Hoping that the Weekending can come soon, you know?
[00:52:52] Travis Bader: Well, a few years ago we, um, I, I was watching the trend when it comes to ammunition, when it comes to firearms, when it comes to [00:53:00] even knife makers. There are people that can't use the word knife if they're talking about it, because they'll get their account locked down.
And I thought, well, hold on a second. Like so often, uh, here in North America, there can be people who are very vociferous about their opposition to firearms. And they say, guns are bad. You shouldn't have 'em. There's gonna be people who are very vociferous about their love. They says, no, for my cold dead hands.
I love 'em. And I thought. This isn't the conversation I think people should be having because when you get these two different, the antis and the pros, the anti hunters and the prompters, and you put 'em together, guess what? The hunters love the animals as much as the, uh, the anti hunters. The. The anti-guns and the pro gunner, they don't want to see guns being used for evil or misused for harm.
We have more similarities than we, than most people would think. And so I thought, well, what if, what if we change that conversation a little bit? Yeah. What if I use Silver Core firearms training? I'm gonna [00:54:00] call it Silver Core Outdoors. Yeah. 'cause I love the outdoors And firearms is a byproduct of that.
Yeah. It's something else that we, we do. It's an app. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm, that's not the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. If you wanna be outside and you want to hunt, yeah. Well, maybe a firearm is something that you're interested in. If you wanna be outside and you want to have bear protection, maybe a firearm is a part of it, but that's not where we drive our focus.
And I found success in not only being able to tell that story through meta in a way that's socially acceptable. Yeah. But also to reach a wider demographic. Yeah. And more and more the comments and, and maybe, maybe I'm stuck in an echo chamber and I'm not seeing it properly. Yeah. I'll, I'll admit that, but.
Uh, the comments aren't about, uh, hunting's bad or guns are bad, or hunting's great and guns are great. It's not this polarizing emotional aspect. Yeah. It's people saying, man, I can't wait to get outside. I've never felt comfortable before. Yeah. But now I've got this a bit more education and I feel [00:55:00] better.
Exactly. And we're seeing younger people, we're seeing demographics, uh, different ethnicities that 'cause, you know, over North America it's, um, old white dudes that that's usually what the stereotype is when it comes to firearms. And that's totally changing. Yeah. And I, and I and I, as much as people want to, um, bemoan the fact that meta will stamp on it.
Yeah. I think the, if we were to look for a silver lining or a positive, I think it's forcing us to take a different approach in how we talk about what we love and what we do so that a wider audience can, can share in the same things.
[00:55:39] Jonas Hellentin: I, I think that that's. That, that's very, you know, I think that's very intelligent.
Uh, and you know, when, when, um, um, when I was quite new at that, at, um, when I was in the process of, of, I would say rebranding it or, or, or, or freshening it up the brand, uh, [00:56:00] uh, norm I into, you know, something that we can use in an international, you know, uh, arena. Um, we, we launched a, a, a content concept that we call Norm Academy.
Norm Academy for us is, um, is basically just an umbrella, um, umbrella, um, uh, for, for all types of content that, that, that sort of, um, that engages, inspires, and educates people into not only, you know, shooting or, you know, whatever, uh, weaponry thing, but most of all, you know, the, the actual, you know, hunting culture and everything that goes into the lifestyle of hunting and shooting.
Uh, so, so if we can, you know, if we can engage and we can, if we can inspire and educate people, uh, if we can make people better and more confident in, in, in not only, you know, handling a gun, but, but towards, you know, being out, they, they make better decisions. They make better decisions on, you know, how to hunt.
They also make better decisions on what, what [00:57:00] products they should, should use, you know, et cetera. Uh, and we wanna, you know, if, if. We are confident enough that we are putting good products out there on the market. Uh, we know that, you know, the, the better, uh, educated people are, the more confident people are about their own capacity and, and, and competence the better decisions they make about their gear and, and mm-hmm.
The better decisions they make about products that they want to, you know, in the end use. So, so without, you know, shoving your products down, you know, people's throats saying that, you know, you have to buy this 'cause it's accurate. That shit, you know, it's mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's true. But, but on the other hand, I mean, it's not that, that it's not that our competitors are not doing accurate products too.
Mm. For us it's more, um, important. I used to talk about, you know, when I, I I, when I speak about it, you know, in, in other audiences that I try to talk about our, our, our, our. Objective is not, you know, it's not to take, you [00:58:00] know, it's not to, you know, get, you know, more pieces of the cake. Uh, our objective is to make the cake bigger.
So if we can make the cake cake big, bigger, even if our competitors are benefiting from that too, you know, we all benefit in the industry because if we, um, can, can make, you know, people, you know, take the step to, to, to go out there and, you know, enjoy nature, do something about, you know, what they shoot, you know, cooking or, or taking care of the meat, whatever.
Um, I, I, I strongly believe that that will, will, you know, long term, uh, benefit our industry in terms of, of, of getting. More users, but al also more acceptance for the people who are actually out there doing this, you know? Mm. But the people who are not doing it. So I think this I important thing, it's not that we're, you know, but try to do our small part, but, but making the cake bigger instead of just [00:59:00] trying to grab someone else else, you know, piece of cake.
That, that, that I think that's more sympathetic, uh, way of approaching, you know, your, your, your time in the industry.
[00:59:10] Travis Bader: I think that's a brilliant way to put it. You know? Uh, in Canada, our gun culture can be a little toxic. Uh, I, I'm, I've tried before to put my finger on the pulse as to why that is. Yeah.
You'll have, well, I'm a, um, I'm a pistol shooter, so I don't care about rifles or I'm a rifle shooter, so I don't care about handguns or, okay. Um, you'll go to different ranges and they'll have different rules. Uh, because the government's given so many rules on us, we want to put even more rules. So it feels like we have a level of control.
Uh, businesses, the well established businesses, uh, they don't have, they don't compete. They collaborate. The, some newer businesses or people coming in, I [01:00:00] find that their ambition can sometimes exceed their ethics or exceed their, and, and there's a lot of, in order to make my building big, I'm gonna tear your building down.
Yeah, yeah. And I see that, unfortunately. Yeah. We see a bit of a culture and, and more and more what I'm trying to do is bring a little bit of light to that and share exactly what you are doing and what Norma's doing is. Rather than trying to tear someone else's building down, how do we make our building robust and and large?
And so other places can say, Hey, guess what? Maybe we can do the same thing and live in their city with these, with these big buildings. And you can stand shoulder to shoulder with giants.
[01:00:46] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah. Because the hunting and shooting community, uh, is and will, uh, you know, always be like, we are a minority, you know?
Mm-hmm. We should be more concerned about, you know, our [01:01:00] relationship and the, you know, the attitude, you know, and everything that, that the world around us has towards us. So, so if we can get, you know, if we can get accepted, we will also build a lot of self-esteem and, and everything that, that will, you know, make the, the business less toxic and, and something that, you know, not only we can be proud of, but also people who, who, you know, for whatever reason does not want to hunt, but they think it's.
You know, just, I, I, I, I think for something, some, uh, something that, you know, a conversation I have with a lot of people outside, you know, uh, the hunting communities, when they said, oh, why, why do you kill animals? It's like, well, you know, in, in, in our today's society, not many, uh, groups actually carry that sort of knowledge about nature and animals and, and, you know, biotopes and everything that, that the hunters do.
Mm-hmm. And, and if we, uh, if we wanna suppress that, if society wants to suppress that for whatever reason, [01:02:00] we have to understand that, that, that there's very few other groups left that can actually carry, you know, sort of the responsibility of, of, of nurturing that environment in, in, in, in a good, healthy way.
You know, because mm-hmm. I, I, I a hundred percent respect people that, that just wanna be out in nature, nature and breathe, you know? Mm-hmm. You know. Um, and, and the whole, you know, new age thing and this, et cetera, I respect that, et cetera. But they have to understand that they are not really, you know, part of that nature.
Uh, we are so small into that, that, you know, uh, that, that if you really wanna spend time out in nature, close to nature, you have to understand it. You have to be prepared, you have to be geared up. You have to, you know, have your own, you know, um, you have to have knowledge and, and, and, and a sense of, you know, security and everything.
Otherwise, it, it, you will not make, you, will not, nature is too [01:03:00] big, you know? Mm-hmm. So, so we are just a small, small, small blip in it. And, and, and, and, um, and, uh, so, so, you know, I, I, I think we, we, I, I love nature, but I, I, I love, I think we should love nature for, for the right reasons, you know?
[01:03:17] Travis Bader: I think if you look at nature and you look at these animals and how they'll one animal will prey on the other and how if one's dead, it decomposes and the plant life grows up and it's, I think it's common for us to look at that as nature as something out there.
What I don't see as common anymore is for people understanding their role. 'cause we are nature. Yeah. And we're all a part of this. Exactly. And, and it seems like there's this disconnect from nature and ourselves. I'm gonna go into nature and I'm gonna come back. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're all in nature.
[01:03:51] Jonas Hellentin: Yeah, exactly. You know, I live a stressful life in, in the city, so then I want to, you know, go out and just take a breath and go back again. [01:04:00] Taking an Instagram picture and, you know. Telling I'm being there. But, but no, in, in reality, you know, you are not really part of that nature. You don't have like a, you, you don't have like that, that, you know, you have not gained that type of understanding and connection with it.
Because, 'cause nature is something that, that, you know, it's, it's not always nice to you. It's, it's, it's not nature is metal. Yeah. Yeah. And then I, I, before I, I started, you know, working in the hunting industry, I was, you know, uh, I was working in the outdoor industry and before I was working in the outdoor industry, I was this outdoor guy myself, you know, you know, go, go out living, you know, trekking in the, in the, you know, in the, in Swedish mountains and forests and everything.
Uh, and, and so, so, you know, I, I. I, I know that, that, you know, if you really wanna, you know, enjoy it and everything, it's, it's not just, you know, stepping out there, having those like TikTok, you know, night. That's right. Yet, you know, you're cho cho choosing the moment. You know, if you really want to see all aspects of [01:05:00] nature, you have to, you know mm-hmm.
Really have to have a humble, you know, approach to it. And, and one of the groups that are consistently and very, you know, on a regular basis, living and, and, and coexisting with nature, all the hunters and so, so, mm-hmm. If we try to suppress them, we, we, we have to understand that we are reducing a group who has built up years and years and years and generations of, of knowledge and understanding and everything that actually makes things
[01:05:27] Travis Bader: work.
[01:05:29] Jonas Hellentin: Uh,
[01:05:29] Travis Bader: you know, I I, if we're to jump back into the production line a little bit, I gotta tell you one of my favorite parts was, uh, shooting into the gel blocks at the slow motion cameras. Uh, that was pretty neat. Um, what do you think people would be most surprised about if they could see the testing process themself?
[01:05:54] Jonas Hellentin: What would it be? What would it be? I, I, I think, you know, [01:06:00] you know, the, the, the gelatin, you know, the whole, you know, laboratory, laboratory environment is something that you, you very rarely see as, as an end user. You don't, you can't really, you know, form that, that sort of, but, but it is a, a lot, you know, it's very laboratory like, you know?
Mm-hmm. In many ways it's quite scientific, you know, so, so you, you're, we're building our products for, from, from a, a huge set of, you know, data and, and, and, you know, we draw our conclusions and, and make our, our changes from that. And, and that might look like a boring part. It's not that we're sitting there home and just, you know, cold for or lead bullets and then, you know, go out and try it on the, on the black bear or something.
It's, it, it is, it is a, a process. And, and, and the interesting thing is that you, you cannot, you know, you cannot, at least in Sweden, you cannot really study to become [01:07:00] Ian. You know, if you wanna work with that, you, you know, we have to find people, you know, working in space engineering or, you know, those kind of things.
Interesting. Yeah. So it's not that you can, you know, actually you cannot actually study to become like a Ian, you know? It's, it's something that you, you, you, yeah. You get from other industries or other, you know, you know.
[01:07:28] Travis Bader: You know, they had this, uh, I, I guess a legend goes, our cedes was sitting in the bathtub when he came up with the idea of, uh, displacement in water to measure weight.
And he was supposed supposedly running down the streets naked, yelling, Eureka. Eureka. Right? But that was sort of a, uh, a eureka moment. I, I'm wondering if during your testing process, if you've ever come up with something that was just unexpected.
[01:07:58] Jonas Hellentin: I, I, it probably, [01:08:00] yeah, I, I haven't, you know, I haven't, you know, worked that long in, in there, but, but for me, one of the, those eureka moments wa was, was when I, when I really, you know, started understanding, you can really see like the visual difference between, you know, when, what, what bonding does, you know, compared to basically the majority of, of, of, of, of non bond bonded, you know, soft point bullets on the market today.
Um, what the, what the speed does to, to, to a lead core, you know, uh, you know, jacketed, you know, uh, bullet, uh, at a certain point, uh, you know, as you know, if the velocity is high enough, it, it'll not only expand, but fragment in, into oblivion and you basically have the jacket left and then, and, and here you can, you know, you can actually see the end result.
You know, if you, if we, we shoot it at, at various velocities how the, the. Bullet opens up not only in that shop, but in, in thousands of shops. Uh, I, [01:09:00] I think that's really neat. For, for me, that is something I, I can, you know, I can transfer, you know, for, for as, as a, as a theoretical model into to my, my, my, uh, real hunting scenario, uh, with a, with an animal, with the bones hitting bones, it show the bones in between, still penetrating it and expanding in, in the vital organs, et cetera, et cetera.
Mm-hmm. I, I can, um, uh, I understand the necessity of having bullets that, that, you know, can, can accomplish all those things, even if we're in the laboratory environment. I think that's what we need. How
[01:09:36] Travis Bader: do you, how do you guys decide what new calibers or what new bullets to you want to create?
[01:09:44] Jonas Hellentin: Um.
[01:09:45] Travis Bader: Is that driven by public?
Is it driven by internally?
[01:09:50] Jonas Hellentin: Uh, well, yeah. Well, well, actually that, that's a good question. Uh, most of the times o obviously it's has its sort, sort of linked. It's commercial, you know, [01:10:00] focus obviously. So, so, you know, in the European market, you, you get three or eight big, you know, caliber. If you, if you make the three eight, you have 80% of the Swedish hunting, you know.
Sort of in et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But then, then it comes, you know, those, those new calibers when six half Creedmore for example, came, came out in market for us, it was like, should we do it? You know, in Europe, nobody really, you know, it was a cool caliber. I think there's a lot of, you know, bust about it, but, you know, did we have any, you know, guns chamber in it?
Do you have, you know, right. Is is it a match, you know, caliber, or is it really a hunting caliber? Is this like, it's evil as hell, you know? Uh, so, so, but so we, we, we started down that, that that road and, and, you know, because the, and you encounter, you know, and you encounter, suddenly encounter, um, [01:11:00] uh, uh, a caliber that, that, you know, your, your bullets, uh, start, you know, uh.
Uh, doing a result working in a different way or, or, you know, than, than you're supposed to. So, so, so, yes. For example, when Creedmore came, uh, it was not like a commercial decision. It was more like we, we have to, we have to see, you know, what this does and how we can apply it to our, sort of, our sort of world and, and brand.
And
[01:11:36] Travis Bader: so I'm curious, where does Norma see itself go on in the next 100 years? Hopefully
[01:11:44] Jonas Hellentin: seeing where we are today.
It's, we're not, you know, we are not, you know, we're not fans of, of, you know. Big leaps, maybe as a Swedish brand, I don't know. But, but you [01:12:00] know, change is something that should, you know, come very slowly. But, but I, I, what we see today, now for, at least for us in Europe right now, we have have the lead band coming up around the corner.
Mm-hmm. Um, um, as much as it's, of course exciting in terms of, of bullet development, it's also a little bit terrifying because I think it's, it's, you know, the whole, uh, the whole debate is driven through, you know, opinion, public opinion. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily connected to, to, you know, the ones who are actually, you know.
Doing it. Um, and, and I'm not saying that it's, it's, it's wrong or I, I'm not saying that, you know, I don't want to be some sort of like, anti-environment. I, I don't want to come out like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, I do believe though, that, you know, for from, for, for as a Hunter and, and I, I always [01:13:00] just online that this is a lot, my personal opinion, whether we have mm-hmm.
We haven't really formed like a, like a opinion from, from the brand or whatever is, you know, I, I, I, it take opportunity just to say that, but it's my own personal reflection of it that. For me, it's, yeah. Yes. Environment is one thing and led, obviously in nature it's not a good thing. But on the other hand, um, uh, the ethics of killing animals, which is basically, essentially what we're doing, uh, is something that we, we, you know, the whole debate has never addressed.
You know, we have been working in developing, uh, lead projectiles for a reason. Uh, and then the reason is it, it, it kills effectively. Um, the expansion of lead, lead core bullet, uh, and, and, uh, and the flexibility you have in developing different types of applications for it is something that, you know, it sounds wrong if I say it's [01:14:00] favored the animals, but, but in, in the end, yes, because it, it's, uh, because when you're hunting, uh, the killing part needs to be ethical, uh, which is basically quick, effective, uh.
With as little, um, uh, damage to the annual or safety, you know, considerations for, for the environment around it. Mm-hmm. You know, but now suddenly, you know, it forces the industry into using a complete different, uh, material and design. And I'm not saying that, that we are unable to, to, to, to, to pursue that or, or, or, you know, do something about it.
But, but it's just that we, we, for so long, we have been working with one type of material and we, we really learn how to optimize that in every sort of different way. Now in a very, very short period of time. We, we, [01:15:00] we wanna. Be able to do the same thing with, with the, with the monolithic copper bullet that behaves in a completely different way than than LED lead is doing.
And, um, I'm not sure that bullet today, uh, it might be better for nature. You know, with all due respect, I, I do think that, you know, the, the, the hunting bullets that, that ends up in nature is, is a minor problem, you know, compared to, for example, the military and everyone who's shooting points out and they, they will not be affected by the lead band.
Um, but, you know, I will not win that argument. So, okay. We leave that one. But, uh, turning into, forcing the industry very rapidly into a, a different type of, of, uh, of, um, a different type of, of bullet design, uh, material, et cetera, that we have really. [01:16:00] A hundred percent, you know, seeing what, what it can and cannot do, um, is, is something that has not really been addressed from an ethical point of, of, of, of, of, um, standpoint and also security standpoint.
[01:16:18] Travis Bader: I think that's a brilliant observation. I mean, like, like you, I'm, I'm all for, I want to make sure that the, um, environment is as good or better when I leave than, than when I ca came in. And you, you look at things like electric vehicles, well, you know, getting carbon fuel CO2, and people will just fixate on this one small piece of the puzzle and say, we gotta make electric vehicles.
Well, have you seen a strip mine for lithium? Have you? And the amount of. Uh, coal that has to be burnt or, uh, hydroelectric or whatever is gonna be used to help recharge and power these things and what happens when the battery goes old, et [01:17:00] cetera,
[01:17:00] Jonas Hellentin: et cetera, et cetera. Yeah,
[01:17:01] Travis Bader: there's a cause and effect, and it sounds really good in the short term, and it sounds good on a marketing campaign, Hey, look, we're doing something.
But for people to take that step back and say, are we doing something? 'cause from my research, and maybe maybe somebody will get on here and they'll, they'll have some more information that I haven't seen before and, and be able to help guide this conversation further. But, uh, lead will oxidize pretty quickly and becomes essentially inert disturbed lead is where we start to have issues.
And that's why they, in North America, they said, okay, shooting waterfowl, we're gonna use non-toxic shot because the ducks will go down, they'll scoop it up and they keep disturbing it and. Okay, so may, maybe there's, there's some thinking behind there, but lead in the ground is just going back into the ground where it came from, it oxidizes over.
There is no, there is no issue, uh, lead in. An animal is when, when I shoot little fragmentations, I don't, I don't know the science [01:18:00] on that. Yeah. If where that's at, but I do know lead's cheap. It's ductile, it expands on impact. It opens up like a Bible on Sunday. Right. It's got great sectional density. Yeah.
It carries that weight through. Yeah. Um, it's inherently. An effective material for making bullets and to turn around and not consider the amount of animals that maybe aren't gonna be dropped as humanely and ethically as they would with lead. Yeah, that's, that's interesting observation in
[01:18:29] Jonas Hellentin: 3 0 8. You go from a, from a 180, uh, 180 bullet lead bullet.
Today's 1 65, 1 50, uh, I mean, the, it takes a lot more for that bullet to really do, do its job. The, the, the, the, the risk. The risk, uh, uh, the margins you have when, when actually killing the animal is much smaller. It, it is by physics, you know? So, so, uh, it's, uh, and, and is that ethical, is that something that contributes?
And, and don't get me wrong, I, you [01:19:00] know, I, I'm the first one today. If I, you know, if I want, yeah, I, if I need to change my way of, of living on this earth, I, I do it, but I, I want to mm-hmm. Make sure that those changes actually make any, you know, difference is, is me switching from lead to, to, to copper. Is, is that making a difference?
I, I'm not really sure. You know, it's, to be honest.
[01:19:22] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. Is there anything that we should be talking about that we haven't talked about?
[01:19:29] Jonas Hellentin: Except for the wine and the, the thing, you know, the nice things that you, you you open up with. But I don't think we have to go there.
[01:19:38] Travis Bader: I, I was hoping, you know, it's, it's a Thursday today as we're recording, I was hoping for a Monday recording right after you do your sommelier lessons.
Yeah. So that we can, let's do really see the real onus. Yeah.
[01:19:52] Jonas Hellentin: Five perfect wines for moose steak, you know, I
[01:19:55] Travis Bader: love it. Well, I think maybe we'll have to talk about those [01:20:00] wines. Yeah. I'm sure we're probably gonna be seeing some, uh, some wine pairings with, uh, nor Norma recipes in the future. Yeah, exactly. Uh, if people wanna learn more, we're gonna have links in the description.
Uh, the Norma Academy, I think that's a pretty cool thing. Yeah. Because, you know, if people are educated, they know how to use a product and they know how to u utilize their meat afterwards in, in a way like, that's, that's brilliant. Um. That, that creates, that creates a culture that carries on into the future and pride that people can carry with them.
Um, so I'll I'll put those links in for everyone listening. Yeah. You, you, you can find that in there and, uh, where they can reach out on social media and the rest. Yeah. Yeah. Jonni, thank you so much for being on the Silver Core podcast.
[01:20:46] Jonas Hellentin: It was, it was really my pleasure. I, I've ne I, I haven't spoken this much English in, you know, in a consistent, you know, length in long, long time, you know, from being a Swedish that I, I'm, I'm pretty far outside my comfort zone, [01:21:00] but, you know, thank you.
You, you, you put me in a very safe place. I think
[01:21:05] Travis Bader: it was fantastic.
[01:21:06] Jonas Hellentin: Thank you. Appreciate being here. Thank you very much.