So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey are joined by Elaine Lin Hering, facilitator, speaker, former Harvard Law professor, and author of the best-selling book, Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. Through her global work on negotiation, leadership, and communication, Elaine has helped thousands of people speak up, find their voice, and challenge the systems that silence them.

Elaine shares the personal and professional experiences that led her to write Unlearning Silence, including why the question isn’t always how to speak up, but why we’ve stayed silent in the first place. Together, they explore how cultural conditioning, workplace dynamics, and fear of judgment shape our ability to use our voice, and how we can unlearn what no longer serves us.

Learn more about our guest:
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Elaine Lin Hering: [00:00:00] The question isn't, how do I speak up more, better, louder, clearer, have more courage? Maybe it's not a question of courage. Maybe your learned behavior is actually strategy for survival and safety, and so how do we honor those pieces while also not operating on autopilot through our lives? Because those things that we learned along the way just become habit and we fall into the trap of forgetting that we have a choice. Unlearning silence is, if it's something we've learned, it's something we can unlearn.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human.
And with that, let's get started. I was thinking about the polarity or the irony of like so much to say. Next to unlearning silence. I mean, I guess they kind of go, like they [00:01:00] go hand in hand. They do. And so I, I think what's been really, not to dive right in, but what's been really interesting. About, you know, I was going through the book and this is where I'm like, and I didn't finish it, so don't, that's okay. Oh, you know, minus a hundred points for me..
Elaine Lin Hering: Okay, can we stop? There is no prerequisite to engaging in the world. This is the part in the book about self-flagellation and that being the one thing that we can let go of. Yeah. As we carry so much else. So. You, you got the book, you read some of, I mean, you're outperforming every possible metric here.
Jennifer Ramsey: Oh my gosh. Inspiration. Yeah. This is, so that's, I love that, Elaine. Yeah. I love what you just said. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you hit record. Yes.
Megan Senese: Because this is really good. I mean, it's so true. And like going, going through it. And so what I thought was really interesting was that I didn't. Yes, I felt bad I didn't finish it, but I didn't feel bad reading it like, oh [00:02:00] no, I'm not doing enough.
Like, it was very, felt like very gentle parenting. And, and I know you referenced some, some things too, like how you're parenting and how it shows up. I'm trying to parent Oh, we can talk about that too. Yeah. Versus, but I, I thought it was so like very interesting that like my. Reasoning for naming it so much to say is because I feel like I'm a blabbermouth and I've been told to be quiet and I have more things to say and I need to be loud and I need to be louder and speak up more, and all of these things.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm-hmm.
Megan Senese: And what's nice about going through the content and also having my partner on with on the show is that Jen has a lot of things to say, but in a different way. Not louder. Right. And. I like that the book took that approach to different perspectives and different backgrounds. There's a section in your book where you talk about New Yorkers [00:03:00] versus people from Iowa. So I'm a New Yorker and Jen grew up in Iowa.
Elaine Lin Hering: Oh, this is so good. Can we just do a meta analysis of the two of these? Yes, yes. Okay.
Megan Senese: Yes, yes. I am a, um, conversational overlap.
Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. Yep. Which in Iowa parlance we call someone who interrupts. Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering: Oh, that's pretty kind. I would say You're rude. Rude. Ooh. We were just talking to me. But I guess that's too nice for Iowa or not. Nice enough for Iowa.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah. I, I wouldn't ever call, actually, I would never even call Megan. Rude, but most people interrupt. But, but it's so funny how Megan came up with conversational overlap or, and I'm like, it's just plain interrupting.
Megan Senese: But anyway, it's, it's not, I didn't coin the term.
It is, it is actually like a New Yorker. It's Erin, someone. They like mapped
Elaine Lin Hering: conversations like you would, musical notes sort of, and you can see different cultures how [00:04:00] much of an overlap there is. And so much of it is influenced by, you know, the work team. We're on the culture, we're in the legal profession.
As one versus the homes and families we grew up in of, if you had to get a voice in a a, a thought in edgewise, you, you can't wait. There's no pause to wait for, so you gotta overlap to get the anchor hold.
Megan Senese: And for New Yorkers, it also shows that you're like listening and that you're excited and you're engaged.
Yeah. Like some of my friends, we will talk at the same time and we both know, but we're, we're Jens like seven years ago. Why are you interrupting me? Stop being so rude. You know? Yeah. Not that you would say that to me, but you'd be like, please, I'm still talking. I'm like, I'm just excited.
Elaine Lin Hering: And then there's the, I'm speaking right.
Women, I'm and, and that's contextually different. Jen, I do have to appreciate that when you first jumped in with the IO perspective, you did actually overlap with Megan. So if you're looking at the transcript like this friendship and partnership
Jennifer Ramsey: has. I love that we, [00:05:00] you know, we, we work so well together. I, you know what I think it is from talking about like, your book and, and like cultural it, it stems from my childhood.
Yeah. 'cause I was taught and told to. Wait for people to finish speaking.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Ramsey: Before I spoke. And that was a sign of, you know, reverence, respectful, respect, all that. So it's, it's old habits die hard. But then I also later in life went through yoga teacher training and we had a whole module on conscious communication.
And I've talked to Megan and I've talked about this before about how, when you are listening. You are, you, you, there's not a lot of the head nodding. There's not a lot of a like physical or verbal affirmation. It's just sit, look in the person's eyes and listen. So it's just this whole conversation that we are going to have, right, that we are having is so fascinating to me.
So. [00:06:00] I
Megan Senese: think what's interesting is that I was also raised, you wait until you're somebody who's done talking and it's rude and you need to show respect and only the grownups get to speak. Mm-hmm. I was raised all that way and, and in trouble a lot because I was like, no, fuck that. I'm not doing that.
Elaine Lin Hering: How early did that start though?
Very early. Okay. You just never conformed to.
Megan Senese: It, it wasn't that I was trying to be rude. It was, it was very similar. If like, if I don't say it now, then this conversation will be over and there will be no more discussion, the end. And so it was, I need to use my voice to, to show up and so I think it's really interesting.
To like unpack all of this, but also to unpack everything that's going on right now and using your voice for people's values. And people feel really strongly about certain values and what's right and what's wrong, and it's a very interesting time to be reading [00:07:00] it and going through that and thinking about what voice means and what silence means
Elaine Lin Hering: right
Megan Senese: now.
Elaine Lin Hering: Yeah. Especially because to the extent in the United States, there are two sides. Both sides are using that language
Megan Senese: Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering: About each other.
Megan Senese: Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm-hmm. And, uh, we've gotta use our voice. Okay. What does that mean for how we coexist? Is the intention actually to coexist?
Megan Senese: Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering: Intention?
Megan Senese: Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering: Yeah. Versus impact.
Megan Senese: It's really tricky. It's really, it's really tricky. And so I've been thinking, you know, I, I, I drafted some stuff of like. As a New Yorker on commuting in all the time, particularly at the height of mm-hmm. Like after nine 11, it was the, say some, if you see something, say something. Right. And so that's ingrained in us.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm-hmm. As a New
Megan Senese: Yorker,
Elaine Lin Hering: how many people actually do it though?
Megan Senese: I don't know. Right. And yeah, that's a good question. As a commuter, I'm not, actually, I'm a long is I'm not really a New Yorker. I'm a Long Islander, and then you get [00:08:00] into the, you get into the work. Place where they're like, you like this one, Jen?
Like, we really want to hear your concerns. Come to us with, come to us with your problems. And then they don't really wanna hear your problems. They only want solutions so that they can shoot them down. So anyway, I would love to maybe start at the beginning 'cause we kind of jumped all the way right into it, which is why unlearning silence. Let's just start there.
Elaine Lin Hering: Yeah. Why is a great place to start? Jen, that's good with you. I love it. Okay. Because I was fed up with everyone else getting it wrong. Hmm. And what I mean by that is my background is in law. I went to Harvard Law School, taught negotiation and mediation at Harvard Law School, and the tools out of the negotiation project there of how to negotiate, how to have difficult conversations, how to give and receive feedback.
Did this for more than a decade across industries, levels of [00:09:00] seniority, geographies, you start to see patterns. One of the patterns I saw was that there are some people who still don't negotiate, still don't have the difficult conversations. Every company has some version of niceness, and niceness means conflict avoidance.
Okay? So then if we have these tools for how. Best practice is to have the difficult conversation and we believe these tools are useful. Why do some people still not have them? Why do some people still not speak up? Even though the subway sign says if you see something, say something and HR says, we really wanna hear from you, there must be something else.
What's that? Something? Silence. The silence. I learned as a kid. To stay quiet and bite my tongue because the adults are the only ones who should speak or the only ones wise enough to think things through the silence. I learned of when I gave feedback early in my [00:10:00] career. In one of those, they asked for it.
Here I'm doing my job, giving it, and then they shoot me a look. Breathe through that one, Megan. That was a deep breath. But that's, that's it. Which is what if we've gotten it wrong? Women, people who aren't normally heard are given the advice. If you're not being heard, you're not getting promoted, not getting what you want.
You need to speak up more, better, louder, clear. Smile less, smile more, have more courage, have more confidence, something, fix yourself and then we might entertain what you have to say. That frame is really convenient for the people who benefit from the status quo because it absolves them of any responsibility to have to change their contribution to the system.
It couldn't possibly be that we as leaders and managers don't actually seem to care about what our people think, because we go through the perfunctory emotions and no one actually says anything. So [00:11:00] to me, it's not. It's just not that simple. The question isn't, how do I speak up more, better, ladder clearer, have more courage?
Maybe it's not a question of courage. Maybe your learned behavior is actually strategy for survival and safety, and so how do we honor those pieces while also not operating on autopilot through our lives? Because those things that we learned along the way just become habit over time, and we fall into the trap of forgetting that we have a choice.
To do anything differently, to even choose silence in the moment, right? Chapter three is all about when silence makes sense. 'cause unlearning silence is not saying everything everywhere, all the time to everyone. The world is far too noisy and we do not have the bandwidth. So that's the why of silence and unlearning silence is, look, if it's something we've learned, it's something we can unlearn both in how we silence ourselves and how we.
Given our best [00:12:00] intention might silence the very people that we lead and that we genuinely love. Not because we mean to, but because we just didn't realize we were doing it. And that's deeply uncomfortable. The other frame is far more convenient, but I'd argue not as effective in actually getting to live meaningful lives and create deep relationship and unleash talent and operate in the world in a way that ners the dignity of every human being.
Megan Senese: Jen, I think you're very good at choosing silence, not for convenience, but when it's like appropriate. I feel like everything has to be said all the time, so it's something I'm trying to work on. But I even think about where like you and I will sometimes if we have to have a hard conversation, we will decide.
I think it's been really helpful for us to do it on the phone versus video because I think we were reading into each other's faces and then like silencing each other. Or coming across certain [00:13:00] ways. And so we've realized different modes of communication for certain things. Right? Just even going through, as I was reading, was thinking about like things I say to my kids and.
I don't wanna hear it anymore is
Elaine Lin Hering: which it is also okay for you to have a boundary.
Megan Senese: Well, I guess that's true, but it's been very tricky where I'm like, I want my kids to be able to like be loud and my daughter was screaming in my face this weekend and I'm like, this is okay. You're very loud. I hear go scream in your room, like go scream.
I am not silencing you, but it's this like very fine balance. I'm like, but you can't talk to me that way. And so it, it, there's so many instances of. Me now trying to be reflective and am I using my voice properly? Am I using it for the right thing? When have I silenced people? I think that was a big one for me that I was like, yeah.
Oh,
Elaine Lin Hering: oh yeah, I have, yeah. I'm also gonna go back just in the spirit of non self-flagellation that I don't know if [00:14:00] it's, am I using my voice properly? Because properly suggests there is one right way to do it. Mm-hmm. So I would go to, am I using my voice the way I want to, or with intentionality, and not as a matter of nitpicking semantics, but just we lose so much of ourselves and our voice and our impact because of all the shoulds, right?
This is the proper way to do things, and there is a bar that we hold ourselves to versus I am a unique human being who's gonna be different than anyone else. And my needs also matter because what we do is we silence our own needs, right? Like I want my kid to be able to have this free childhood. Now this is, I'm projecting, this is me, right?
Where you get to be a kid and you get to yell and scream. Therefore, do my earbuds not matter? No, both and right? So no. I am also, as I want you to use your voice, I also want you to [00:15:00] understand. Respect and how you're coming across and the impact you're having, right? So using your voice doesn't mean you get to do everything and just have your way.
That's part of our responsibility as parents. It's the both, and of also, how do I factor myself in if part of my silencing has been to silence my own needs? Because the shoulds, the proper woman would be easy, breezy, beautiful. Co cover girl. Yeah. Not flinch, but my temples are pounding and I am not. Okay.
Megan Senese: Yeah. Right. I mean, no one's putting me in the easy breezy bucket, but, but it's been a, it has been, it's been really reflective and so I've been thinking, you know, thinking more about relation, like as you were talking about it, relationship with silence. And again, with the, like, using my voice properly because it feels like there's a lot that people could be talking about right now and without like really having to get into it.
People feel really passionate about both sides that are core [00:16:00] values and that is, that's deep, that's deep rooted and, and it's, so it's a really interesting time to be going through all of those things
Elaine Lin Hering: completely. And if I can offer a couple of thoughts. One is, this is the only sports analogy I will ever use because I'm not a sports person, and so I really shouldn't use them.
That's the caveat we've got in the fine print. But the idea is you don't have to swing at every pitch, right? There's so much competing for our energy and our attention, and it is all magnified in morality that if you don't swing at this, you don't chime in, you don't say something, you're not doing this, then you're wrong.
On whatever side of whatever issue, and there are so many different ones. I couple that with where you put your energy becomes your life. We all only have so much bandwidth, right? We wear so many hats. We do so many things. We care deeply about [00:17:00] so many people. And if we're pulled in every which way, and if you're talented and have skills, people will pull you.
Right. You. You should PTA, you should fill in the blank, right? You should organize Our voice to me is more than the words that we say or how loud we say it, but how we move through the world. What choices are you making day in and day out about where you're gonna put your energy, which pitches you're gonna swing at, which you're gonna let go?
None of us can do it all. If we try to do it all, we will all burn out, and that serves no one.
Jennifer Ramsey: I like to think of my silence as my superpower in a way. Sometimes I don't say things just out of fear.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Ramsey: Or insecurity. Like I'm, I'm not the smartest person in the room. And this was particularly acute when I first started doing legal marketing with all of the Harvard jds and the Yale jds, and I felt like, oh my God, I went to the [00:18:00] University of Northern Iowa.
I don't have anything to say that is as smart. So, so that, that started my, well, we already talked about childhood silence, but like growing, growing up and then just fear, insecurity and, um, I, I remember I, I'd be in these meetings with all these lawyers and I finally challenged myself. I'm like, you need to say one thing at a meeting.
You just need to say one thing. Just to get out of the shell of being scared. So I started doing that and it started working. And then teams that I've led ever since then, I, I tell, I tell my, well, I'm, it's just Megan and me now, so I don't need to tell Megan to do anything. But like, or like back at the law firm, you know, I would coach and mentor my teams.
Like say one thing, just say one thing, pick one thing. Even if you have to pre-plan it is premeditated again, ev evolving through my life. I've now started to see silence as a [00:19:00] superpower.
Elaine Lin Hering: Mm.
Jennifer Ramsey: Exactly what you're talking about, Elaine. I don't always need to say something. Um, and I have to preserve my energy, capital, my energy tank, and sometimes it just, I don't mean this to sound callous, but sometimes I just don't care enough.
Yes. And you can't,
Elaine Lin Hering: right. We don, I don't actually care about the difference between white cream paint on the wall versus snow white. I can't tell. And, and other people will debate it for hours now. I love that. And I also wanna say as one of the Harvards, yes, yes, yes. We don't know everything. You're in and off that, yeah, you're in and out of these rooms and you're like,
I am affiliated. I don't wanna be affiliated with all, all. Yes. So that's, that's one. [00:20:00] And the other is that none of us have a monopoly over information. And so my favorite phrase is from where I sit. If you're one of those people on Jen's team and you gotta say one thing, but you don't know what you wanna say, so often we self-censor and edit because, well, they might know something more.
They might, uh, have a good rebuttal. Great. That's what it looks like from where they sit. What does it look like from where you sit? At the assistant level or on the team or in the, um, Frankfurt office? None of us see from the same vantage point, and we need each other to put the puzzle together from where I sit, acknowledges the legitimacy and the limitation of your perspective.
And it naturally begs the question, what does it look like from where you sit? And we're in conversation rather than combat or conflict. But don't diminish where you sit because no one can be you. [00:21:00]
Megan Senese: I love that. I think that's a helpful frame for. I mean, even our very senior lawyers now that we have left, at least from, from, from where I sit now in my new life, yes.
The further away I am from law firms, the more very senior lawyers are coming and saying like, I, I don't know what to say. I should have said something more. Or I, I feel nervous about this, and these are all the things that I felt as. Lowly staff person. Right. Which is like, again, culture and what people are not saying or saying and self coagulation.
A little bit of that. And why did I feel like that? No one ever said things. They made you feel like that. And I'm not the only one who felt like that anyway. But nobody knows anything. Like everybody feels the same way. There's one part general like this. 'cause I've talked about this experiment, the psychology experiment quite a bit in the past.
I remember it because it was a, like a college 1 0 1 psychology class. We saw the video of the Milgram [00:22:00] experiment, and Jen, I, I know I've talked to you about this so many times because I felt like there were times in either firms, you and I, firms that you and I worked at, or firms that I've had worked at in the past where people knew they were doing the wrong thing, or they didn't really question what they were doing because they were just doing what they were told.
And it would get sometimes to these extremes where I'd be like, Ugh. Like, reminds me of this experiment, Jen, and I'm explaining it to you. And so it was very interesting to see that you used that. I mean, it's a good one, right? That you use that in the book. So for people who don't know what it is, do you want to share what the experiment is and why you decided to use that one out of everything else?
Elaine Lin Hering: Yeah. The experiment is gathering participants, putting them in different rooms. The participants have to administer an electric shock on someone that they do not see. They have audio data, meaning if the person shrieks or yells or sounds like [00:23:00] they're in pain, they can hear that, and they are told by the researcher to continue to increase the voltage on the shocks.
They are also told that they are not held personally responsible for the impact that the shocks have and that it's really helpful. For research for them to do this. Your help is required for this experiment. 65% of participants will go up to the max voltage of 450 volts. Now, in my curiosity, I went and looked up dielectric breakdown, where it breaks the skin and nerve damage starts to happen, happens between 500 and 600 volts.
So this is still a controlled experiment, but you get people who are doing. What would seem counter to human nature, right? If you hear someone in pain, wouldn't you want to stop? But being told this is your job, you're not held personally responsible for it, and it's helpful [00:24:00] for you to do this. 65% of people will continue to do it, and I use it because if we are not owning our own voices, thinking for ourselves critically, right?
Does this make sense? Do I agree with this? Do I not agree with this? What would I do if we're not using our own voice? Other people will use our voices for us and usually not in the way that we might if we're thinking about it. Also that when you're working a job, right, it's, well, my manager told me so, and it's helpful for the org or the client and there can be deference to will they know better, right?
They're more senior. They've seen more cases. Whatever it is. And so we actually though give up our power to affect change because we forget that we have agency.
Megan Senese: Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering: I mean,
Megan Senese: we weren't shocking people, but I mean, I've ref, I don't know how many times I've referenced this, Jen, right? I mean like multiple times to you.
We like, you're not
Elaine Lin Hering: shocking people, [00:25:00] but you are not right. In so many bankruptcy cases, in so many litigation cases, you don't see that. And defendant or person who's abused in a nursing home, you just need to write the brief. You just need to show up at the meeting. You need to move the papers. That's all I'm doing.
I'm not hurting anyone or I don't see it, right? If I choose not to see it, and there's enough that says, go with the flow. That to me is part of what's so damaging about silence is we forget that we have a choice. We forget that we have a voice because it is easier not to see it in the short term. One of the ways that we end up silencing each other, this is chapter five of the book, is when we expect other people to communicate like we do.
Not just are we talking versus typing, but are we doing it in real time or are we doing it asynchronously? Now there are real time processors where the more we talk [00:26:00] something out, the more clear it gets. That usually mats with extroverts as well. And then there's another group of people who are post-process.
So if you've ever sat in a meeting, you can't quite figure out what to say. 20 minutes after the meeting, you're like, oh, that's what I wanted to say. But the meeting's over. Do I reply all? Do I? Do I call her? Do I come back? Uh, it's too much. Nevermind. It's probably not that important. Welcome to being a post processor.
It doesn't make you weak, but in so many workplaces it is termed a weakness and you get performance feedback that says, you know, to be quicker on your feet. More responsive in the moment. Maybe like take some improv classes and that's not a bad thing. That's just Kahneman's work on slow and fast thinking at a micro level.
But our do our workplaces actually. Facilitate that, foster that acknowledge the difference in wiring rather than penalize people claiming it's a weakness. And so in our communication, it's not to say that we don't have real time conversations, but it's to say, alright, here's where I think we're at.
[00:27:00] Everyone sleep on it. As you post process, reply all on the email. Right? And I've normalized post-processing. I've also made clear how you reengage the conversation so you don't get the analysis, uh, paralysis of, oh, do I text, do I call, do we do video on, do we do video? Oh my gosh, it's too much. There's too many choices.
I've said reply all on the
Jennifer Ramsey: original thread. I love that. And it's also, I think you alluded to this, you mentioned to, it mentioned it earlier in our conversation, Elaine, it's, it's people in leadership positions creating the space for, for that to happen too. You know, it's, it's feeling, feeling safe to be able to, to say something post meeting, post event and, and people recognizing like it's the awareness of.
Oh yeah. People do have different communication styles and someone is, someone might have a brilliant idea 24 hours after the fact. Can we create the space to receive that and [00:28:00] bring everyone back into the fold? So I, I love how. Tactical that is and, and real and tangible. Like these are, these are key simple things, takeaways that, that people can do to, you know, unlearn silence, unleash the talent.
Exactly what you're talking about, creating the space. Like it's, we all have a role to play in that. Not just the people who are silent and who don't wanna speak or are scared to speak or whatever. It's the other people on the receiving at the other people, like creating that space so that people who are quiet or silence.
Can come out and speak.
Megan Senese: Well, and I, I think it's really like in the more that you and I work together too, Jen, right. We we're, our communication styles are very different. I need everything immediate. I also have an a spiral anxiety spiral if I'm not getting a response immediately, not. Because I think I'm so great and deserve a response, but now I'm spiraling and like I think John's mad at me and why?
Right? So this other thing is happening and so it's helpful for [00:29:00] us and now that we are working even closer together with our business and maintaining our friendship and knowing what those styles are, and this is just how it shows up in one instance, right? Of us in our business. But that flexing is what we tell our lawyers that they have to do too, right?
Which is. You're trying to talk to the general counsel. Maybe they don't wanna talk on a text. Maybe they want to do face-to-face, or maybe they only wanna do a phone call. Do you know what their preferred method of communication is? And most of the time it's, they do not. Right. Which is then ask them, one of the examples you use was.
Is somebody who needs quiet time to sit and, and think and then produces a beautiful analysis, which couldn't be more Jen if you tried to like summarize her. Or are you the person who's like constantly talking nonstop? That's me. Right? And so we, you know, you have to flex and, and know that,
Elaine Lin Hering: and it's so again, looking at patterns across teams, it's such a common pairing.
It's such a [00:30:00] common pairing and can be such a strength. And an amplifier if you actually talk about it, right? So I imagine by now Jen knows. Or Megan, you know that if you don't hear from Jen, it's not that she's mad at you, right? It's that she's thinking or writing this beautiful report or whatever it is, right?
But we learn that by trial and error. We don't make it discussable. And we rarely say, Hey Jen, I haven't heard from you. Are you mad at me? Right? And then Jen's like, no, of course not. Right? We just keep that in us and it festers. And that's part of unlearning silence too, that sort of having the meta conversations that we don't often have or didn't learn to have, but that, that 32nd conversation or text, email, exchange, whatever way saves you four hours of spiraling probably gets you three hours of sleep.
Yeah. Right?
Megan Senese: Yes. So there's this story. I'm gonna un, I'm gonna unpack this. Jen, you weren't a participatory in this, so you're off the [00:31:00] hook for this one. I'm good. Yeah, I wouldn't bring it up. I'll stay. Si, I'll stay silent then. No. Well, so you remember it 'cause I was pissed and this is, there was this, okay, I have been thinking about writing this as a piece of content, but couldn't figure out how to do it, so I'm gonna do it now.
There was this instance where. My memory is getting foggy now 'cause I have been telling myself the same story. So now I'm not sure of the exact details.
Elaine Lin Hering: Eory Truth effect.
Megan Senese: Yes. The way that I remember it is that we, we were being asked for feedback on new ideas for the board or how to get the board more engaged.
Something about the board of a firm. My idea was looking at the composition of the board makeup because it was more men than women, and my suggestion was perhaps we can either give allocated time, the same amount of time, minutes [00:32:00] to each board member in a prescriptive way so that everyone had even speaking time, particularly because men tend to talk more at meetings or women don't get the microphone as often in meetings as men.
Uh, something to that effect. Basically, I was like, women should talk more. Uh, it's at a board level. Maybe they don't feel comfortable and the men should do something about it. It's kind of how I remember probably even at this point, I was probably pissed. They probably even said it like that. So didn't go over very well.
I got my ass handed to me, like, hand it to me that is not a problem. That that's really even not appropriate to be talking about it in this way and. And it was a zoom so I could see everyone's faces we're all like the fuck. Everybody was like frozen and there was like, nobody was making a sound or a movement.
Even though we were on video, you could still feel like the tension in the room and we weren't even in the room. So the, the meeting ends. I'm pissed. So [00:33:00] everybody who was there, 'cause now everyone is IMing me. Yeah. I agree with you. That was a great thing. Uh
Elaine Lin Hering: oh.
Megan Senese: Yes, we agree. Yes. That's a good idea. Oh, so many people, I'm like, well, where the fuck were you when I was literally being chewed up and spit out?
I didn't say anything. And so I know that's another kind of example that you've used and mm-hmm. Resonated with me. And I know I'm not the only one who has examples like this and you raised an idea and you get dismissed in silence. Told you're stupid because you didn't go to Harvard. And um, we're just gonna pick on Harvard for the rest of the time.
But then everyone comes out after Uhhuh. And so I guess my question, which is not one, I wanted to share this story, so thanks for letting me, um, get that out, but also for the people who are coming after and saying, I agree with you, or the person who was brave to [00:34:00] raise it, like mm-hmm. What advice or what path forward do you give for people like that who are recognizing like.
I don't wanna just do what I'm told. Here's an idea. I'm actually being brave and speaking up. And then what?
Elaine Lin Hering: You may get your ass handed to you.
Megan Senese: Yeah, okay. It
Elaine Lin Hering: happens. Yeah. Right. It happens. And my question to you, in the decision making framework as to whether to say something or not say something is why.
Why are you saying something? If you have a compelling reason for why you wanna say it, it doesn't actually matter whether they listen or the outcome is there. Because it was a values-based decision. There was something that mattered more to you than the comfort of the relationship or keeping the supposed piece that compelled you to say it.
Be it equity, be it making a change, making it different, better for the people who come after you, whatever it is. I mean, it's classic behavioral change in [00:35:00] terms of what's your bigger, why you wanna lose weight. Well, you need a bigger why. Okay? I wanna be able to play with my grandkids. Right. What is your bigger why?
And that clarity allows you to weather the storm. Now, the other part of the four anchors that I offer is embrace resistance. We so often get caught in this assumption that if I use my voice, people are being like, oh my gosh, yes. You know, the angels are now singing, thanks for showing me the light. Mm, no.
They're usually like, who the hell are you to tell me? Or there's a gut reaction, or there's ego, or there's defensiveness before they come round or are willing to engage. Resistance is part of the process. So why are we so surprised by it? Right? Using our voice is not a one shot deal, but if you have a clear why that contextualizes the rest of the stuff that comes with it.
The other piece I would say [00:36:00] is for each of us to know that feeling that I think so many of us have had, um, is like, where were you? And that's to know that public public engagement matters more than private commiseration. And the example I put in the book is like, well, that wasn't my, you know, we all have our reasons for why we say something or why we don't.
So many of us also say, well, like at least I reached out to Megan afterwards, and I make myself feel better about it. What's the real game you're playing though? Because is it I want Megan to know that I'm one of the good people and that I get it, but the reality, the impact, whatever my intention is, is I've still let Megan take the hit.
And I have created a culture where, particularly for the loud people, right Megan, you make it very convenient for other people to not to have to say things because you probably do [00:37:00] it right And people then get a pass and it's like, ah, Megan will say it, she'll do, she'll take the head, I'm okay. And we actually, in taking that stance, deprive ourselves of the opportunity to build the muscle.
Of practicing what it might be like to share a thought and insight or take a stand. It also contributes to pluralistic ignorance, which is everybody's thinking about no one saying it. So then people are like, well, thank God Megan said it.
Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, I, this is such a good conversation. I'm proud that Megan says, speaks up and says things, and I, I wasn't on that call.
I know what she's talking about. I will say, just, just to add some context. There's also a culture of it not being okay. Yes. To speak up and say things and you get your ass handed to you. Yes. So that's the other part of this equation. That why, and I'm not defending the people who didn't speak up for you when you were being hung out to dry [00:38:00] Megan, but that's also part of the reason why they come to you after the fact.
Because they're scared. They're scared to have said something on the call. So 'cause of
Elaine Lin Hering: the culture. Yes, and this is why solving for silence is not just Jen. You need to unlearn your own silence, right? Well, in what ways am I silencing you and in what ways is it baked into the systems? We're all part of the culture that we're part of, that we have breeded organizational and employee silence, the collective phenomenon of saying nothing.
Now the more that we see people saying, from where I sit, blah, blah, blah, blah, what does it look like from where you sit? The more that the Megans of the world and others will say stuff or that that is an opportunity for leadership to actually not react poorly and chew out. Yeah. Right. But that, that takes me back to our why.
What is the compelling why that. It is worth it to you. Whatever other people's response, that success of speaking [00:39:00] up is not dependent on other people's reactions because it was worth it.
Megan Senese: Oh, you wanna repeat that
Elaine Lin Hering: you, yeah. Can you, that's so good. Success of speaking up is not dependent on other people's reactions because you did it because it mattered to you.
I say that very deeply, right? I was a managing partner at a global leadership development firm. I am no longer a managing partner at that firm. Speaking up is costly, but you know what else is costly? Staying silent,
Jennifer Ramsey: right?
Elaine Lin Hering: Pick your version of cost. The challenge, of course, is the cost of speaking up happens in the moment.
Our palms get sweaty. They yell at us, they hand us our out, whatever it is, they cut us out of our lives. We lose our jobs. Maybe the cost of staying silent happens on a different time. Happens down the line, right? You lose your sense of self, you lose your sense of agency. You lose power to affect [00:40:00] change.
There's no one else speaking up. There is conformity. There is a co deep, more deeply entrenched culture of silence. Which set of costs do we want to choose and why? I go back to chapter three lands that it's your choice because only you know what you carry. What demons you're fighting with, what is going on in your family, how much you slept at night, what your mental health is, what your bank account is.
And I'm not quick to judge people who choose either way because only, you know, I can point out the places that we tend to get it wrong, which is we focus on the short-term costs and we forget about the long-term costs and we focus on the cost to me in the moment, which. Is certain and the potential benefit of speaking up, like affecting change and disrupting things that is not guaranteed but is less guaranteed, the less any of us do something about it.[00:41:00]
And that tends to be missing from our analysis.
Megan Senese: What about the leaders who are coming out and saying like, I didn't, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean to, I mean, I keep thinking about. We want to have, I'm, I'm gonna censor myself as I was gonna say something spiteful. We wanna be a great center of innovation.
Elaine Lin Hering: Hmm.
Megan Senese: And we only, but, but don't come to us with your problems. Only come to us with solutions, which is something that. We have been told, which is not very inc. That's not very inclusive, right? To, to, or opening and open and letting people come to you. Let's brainstorm. And opposite of innovation is if you're only coming to me with solutions, then it's already been fixed.
So for leaders who are maybe waking up perhaps, or wants to be better and they say, that wasn't my intent, then what would be, what would be the next step for them
Elaine Lin Hering: if we're going, awareness is the first step. Action is the next. [00:42:00] So you have this awareness of, okay, it wasn't your intent. Well, number one, we don't judge based on intent.
We judge based on impact. It's not to invalidate your intention, but the impact is what actually happened. Whether it's the harm that's done or the outcome that was there, that's reality. Intention is just the motivation of what that was behind your contribution. But the outcome, whatever it is, is the same, right?
If you think about a p and l, well, I intended for it to be a good quarter. Well, what are we really judging on? The actual numbers at the end of the quarter? Whatever your intents. So it that, that to me is what are we actually talking about and, and agreeing that we're gonna look at outcomes. We're gonna look at impact and intention can be helpful background and understanding.
But if we're results oriented businesses, which most of us are, then let's talk about the results. Now, if that wasn't your intention, the question is how do we close the gap between [00:43:00] your good intentions and your not so good impact? Chapter five offers nine ways that you might be silencing. People use it as a checklist.
Ask whether I'm doing these things right, including one way we silence people is forgetting how hard it can be to speak up if that's not something that we don't struggle with, right? Why didn't you call me? You should have called me. It would've been totally fine. We could have fixed this. Well, remember the last time I called you?
Yes. You chewed me out. And on the flip side, again, I'm looking for all the possible leavers for connection and information exchange. One thing that we can do as someone speaking up or trying to use your voice is to say, give them a helpful role, meaning I'm coming to you today and I'm really looking for you to be a thought partner.
If I had solutions, I would come to you with solutions. Here's what I can see. Here's where I'm stuck. Can we think through this together? I've given you a role and a task. I've [00:44:00] been very clear about my ask to you, which is don't tell me that I'm wrong. Don't tell me that I need to go fix it. I am trying to enroll you and very well-intentioned leaders I know who end up silencing people.
It's because. They don't know what role they're playing, and they've gotten all of these messages of you're supposed to coach people by asking questions, lead a horse to water rather than giving them water versus, what am I actually doing here? And if it's, think through this with me, that's a role that I can try to give a well-intentioned leader if they are genuinely well-intentioned.
I've, I've spelled it out as clearly as I can, right? You can support me by thinking through this together. Give me 20 minutes of your time. Here's the background work I've done and what I would've come to you if I could. There's no guarantee, but we're, we're playing all the cards we've got.
Jennifer Ramsey: I, you know, Elena, I'd love to hear your advice.
'cause we, we do have a fair amount [00:45:00] of legal marketers who listen to our podcast. So, and, and they, they, they run the gamut and experience. So from very junior. Coordinators to CMOs even, and I, I'd love to hear your advice for them from where they sit when they are in these meetings with, with partners and very smart people and maybe scary, intimidating people.
And the coordinators are in these meetings too, from time. You know, they might, their role might be as a scribe, the CMOs role might be as a scribe, as much as that chagrin me to say that. Mm-hmm. From, from where they sit, what. Practical advice do you have for them to unlearn their silence, not stay silent, challenge themselves to to speak up and say something?
Elaine Lin Hering: Yeah. Let me start with mindsets, because this is double loop learning, right? Our mindsets drive our behaviors, which drive the actions, which drive the outcomes. So I'm not gonna do the diet light version and just give you the words, even though we'll, [00:46:00] we'll end there. The mindset is, I speak as someone who is trained as a lawyer, worked with a lot of lawyers, worked with a lot of partners, worked with people with impressive titles.
Lawyers are not marketers. Whoa. Most of us don't even believe that we are, nor do we want to. We have no idea what we are doing when it comes to marketing. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Going back to the puzzle I did, we all have different pieces of the puzzle, which is what makes the business work. If lawyers knew how to do marketing, they would not have CMOs.
Now, whether they defer to a CMO or a coordinator is a different question, but in terms of saying something, adding value is actually owning, you know, from a marketing perspective, dah, dah, dah, dah. The thing that we, we tend to focus on. You know, I went to IO University [00:47:00] instead of Harvard. Great. Well you actually have a perspective that Hvar, is that what they call 'em?
I dunno. Oh my God, I don't just gonna own that. It sounds like a type of cheese. We got better things to fight over, let's be clear. Right, but you. Own the perspective. You would not be in the room if you didn't have, you should not be in the room if you don't have a, a unique perspective to offer. Now, you may have, by tradition and by habit, been given the role of scribe.
That doesn't mean you need to be confined by it. We all know that the people who are doing the most talking often are not also doing the observing. They're so busy yammering on. Overlapping that they're not actually listening to one another. So by being a scribe or taking notes, or actually paying attention to everything everyone is saying, you notice things that other people don't.
Now that is a value add. [00:48:00] That's why you're paid, right? If there wasn't a role for you, you wouldn't have a role. You wouldn't be in the room. So own it. And if owning it is from a marketing perspective, great. At least you've said it. Because what did we say earlier? Speaking up, the success of speaking up is not dependent on the outcome.
It's did you add what only you could add? And that could be, I'm coming to this with fresh eyes. We also all know that the more deeply we've been steeped in something, in a project and a culture, we cannot see what is dysfunctional about it. So if you've been on the job for two weeks, it might feel like, well, I can't say anything 'cause I'm new and I don't know how things work.
Well, you see things that other people don't. So own that lens. What often so feels like a liability actually is the value add, right? So coming at it from a, with fresh eyes, from the marketing department, from a marketing perspective, from where I sit and then fill it in. You're, you're not trying to be omnipotent, you're not trying to [00:49:00] own it all.
But those are catchphrases I'd go to, to not diminish your own value and worth and get your voice in the room. Now what they want, what everyone else does with what you've put in the room that's on them, especially if you're not the decision maker. Right. And this takes me to the three buckets framework I put in the book as well of, let's be really clear, as a matter of energy allocation, who's deciding, who's consulted and who's informed.
Because if the, the biggest pitfall I see is that people think that if I have a voice, then I. Should be able to influence the outcome of the decision. Therefore, if so facto, I'm a decision maker, and when the decision maker doesn't actually take my advice, then I think, well, that was useless. Why am I gonna spend all this time trying to influence them in the future if they already knew what they were gonna do anyways?
Do we have the mental clarity of what bucket we fall? Because if I'm not a decision maker, which I imagine on some of these things, the [00:50:00] CMO or the coordinator, you're not the decision maker. It's a business decision. You are consulted if you're invited in that room to offer your input, your advice, your best perspective, and advocate for what you would do from your purview.
But if you're not the decision maker, it's also this is my responsibility to add to the conversation and also to let go.
Jennifer Ramsey: That was beautiful and I hope the legal marketers and business developers who are hearing this, take that to heart, own it, own where you are, own your position. I could have really benefited from hearing what you just said like 20 years ago when I started my career.
So I thank you for saying that to our audience now because it's really helpful and inspired. I'm so
Elaine Lin Hering: glad and, and I say it. So honestly, I am an academic. I am a speaker. I am not a marketer. I do not understand it. It gives me the heebie-jeebies I wanna crawl in a [00:51:00] hole. I am so grateful you exist because it is a different skillset and not necessarily what I'm gonna spend my time doing, but as a matter of bd, I need it.
And so you are in an invaluable part of how things work. So also thank you for existing
Jennifer Ramsey: Thank you for existing. Yeah. This is our mic drop moment.
Megan Senese: I know. I, I, I love, I love that. I think this is a beautiful way to close. If people want to buy your book, learn more about you book, book you for their partner retreat.
Have you as a keynote for their legal marketing association annual conferences. Where, where can they find you? Elaine lynn
Elaine Lin Hering: herring.com. I also hang out mostly on LinkedIn of the social media platforms, so join me there, follow, engage, and truly both to you, Jen and Megan, and anyone listening, thank you for existing and a call to [00:52:00] action of the world is less interesting, less rich, less beautiful, less functional without your perspective and your gifts.
So as you are willing to share them with us, thank you. And don't cheat others out of the opportunity to actually know you and actually benefit from all that you have. That's all.
Megan Senese: This episode was brought to you by stage. That's us! A woman-owned business development and marketing boutique focused on relationships. Revenue and growth for individual lawyers, legal marketers, and law firms. In addition to wanting to know what makes you human, we also wanna know what podcast guests do you want us to have on? What topics are top of mind for you? Let us know. Email us at info@stage.guide.