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Back to Cradle, we go! In this episode, Slava and Jonathan once again revisit Lindon and Yerin as they strive to reach the end of the sacred arts. Join them for Book 7 of Will White's Cradle Series, Underlord.
Our website: www.thesidequestpodcast.com
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(01:40) Casual Book Club Dynamics
(03:09) Overview of Underlord and Cradle Series
(06:01) Will White: Author Insights and Humor
(08:55) The Demand for More Cradle Content
(10:51) Inspiration Behind Cradle's Creation
(12:45) Character Development: Power and Values
(15:11) Yeren's Internal Struggles
(17:38) Personal Connections to Characters
(22:56) Fear and Personal Growth
(29:14) Understanding Loneliness vs. Being Alone
(34:30) Lyndon's Journey and Personal Resonance
(38:51) Emotional Detachment and Personal Growth
(40:16) World Building: Hierarchy of Power
(44:04) Nuances of World Building
(47:57) Personal Growth vs. External Conflict
(52:46) Character Paths in the Cradle World
(59:09) Goal-Oriented Structure in Storytelling
(01:11:10) Layering Conflicts and Relatability & Outro
Creators and Guests
What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?
If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.
101 Underlord Part 1
===
JONATHAN: back, Slava, to the world of Cradle.
SLAVA: Hey, Jonathan, good to be back here in the world of Cradle.
JONATHAN: Don't sound so excited.
SLAVA: Oh, I'm excited. I am just a very stoic, sacred artist this morning.
JONATHAN: Aethon?
SLAVA: Yes,
JONATHAN: No.
SLAVA: stoicism mixed in with insanity and sarcasm.
JONATHAN: Well, we're back, folks, for another episode of Cradle. do we have any housekeeping today? I don't think we have any
housekeeping.
SLAVA: No,
JONATHAN: We're back. That's the housekeeping.
SLAVA: Yeah, we're back. There we go.
JONATHAN: Book six, you know, the episode rundown about two episodes with us. Then, there will be a third episode with guests, depending on how long the book is. I'm a, I'm pretty happy that we have finally honed in the brand a little more. That this is a book club, right? This is a casual book club for all of our go-to fun internet friends. You pop in for the books you like, and you leave for the books you don't. And you chit chat with us in the meantime.
SLAVA: I like it.
JONATHAN: Yes.
SLAVA: As you guys have heard in the previous episodes, 99 and 100, respectively, Jonathan and I have had quite a journey to get to where we are now. So, I'm excited for the next leg of this journey.
JONATHAN: Yeah. I'm, I'm, you, you brought up a good point that I honestly just forgot, like we've passed the hundred, a hundred episode mark
SLAVA: Yeah, this is episode 101.
JONATHAN: 101 for those in the college world. I wanted to read this little paragraph as a reminder to our friends out there in the internet world that SideQuest is a casual book club for readers and audiobook listeners who want to discuss their favorite books but don't always have a group to discuss them with. So, with this in mind, tune in to go deeper into a story, story elements, world-building, character development, and more.
We're glad to have you.
SLAVA: Well, alright, as we set off on today's side quest, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you guys never miss an episode. And with that, let's get into it: Underlord by Will White. The Dread Gods are awakening, prompting the Monarchs of Cradle to hold the Uncrowned Tournament to cultivate new sacred artists.
The Kura Clan opens Nightwheel Valley. To their vassal states, the Black Flame Empire and the Seishin Kingdom, where sacred treasures await. Akura Charity will select the top three Underlords from each kingdom, with a focus on targeting Linden due to his role in Akura Harmony's death. Tonight, Wheel Valley Sian Kiro and his protector Miera confront Lynden, who eventually becomes an under Lourd Yin and manages to advance.
Under Lord Two, she becomes an Under Lady amidst the chaos of a surprise attack by the Sian Kingdom on the Black Flame Empire. During this turmoil, Lyndon kills Prince Kiro, prompting Prince Dodgy to vow revenge, only to be defeated by MMercy. Afterward, Charity announces the Vassal State team from the tournament.
It is Yeren, Aethan, and Naru Seiya who will compete. At the same time, Linden will participate on the Black Flame team to repay his debt. Meanwhile, in Sacred Valley, Weishi Kelsa, hiding from hunters, encounters Orthos, a flaming turtle sent by her brother Linden. The Abaddon continue their struggle against Brochyr as they fight to protect their worlds.
As already mentioned, Will White brings this book to you. He is a New York Times and number one Kindle best-selling author of the Cradle series, a space fantasy series entitled The Last Horizon, and a handful of other books that he regularly forgets to mention.
His true power is only unleashed during a full moon when he transforms into a monstrous mongoose, or so he says on his blog. Will lives in Florida, lurking beneath the swamps to ambush prey. He graduated from the University of Central Florida, receiving a master's of fine arts and creative writing and a cursed coin of Spanish gold.
Now we know where his humor comes from. I'm sure that's a self-published bio, too. He is noted for being a successful self-published author, winning the Stabby award for best self-published independent novel of 2013 on Reddit's fantasy Subreddit for his book House of Blades White. He subsequently won the same award two more times, in 2018 for Ghost Water and in 2019 for Under Lurd.
Due to his number of wins, White was retired from eligibility for the awards in 2020. The audiobooks for Bloodline Reaper, dread God, and Way Bound, narrated by another than Travis Baldry, appeared on the New York Times bestseller list for the month they were released.
And the audiobook of the final volume of Cradle Waybound, which we'll get to, we promise, was the bestseller on Audible the week it was released. So our man, our man is killin' it.
JONATHAN: He is. I missed the, the humor moment when you were like, we know where his, um, we know where his, what did you say a second ago?
SLAVA: I think his humor
JONATHAN: His humor?
SLAVA: cause that's the press
JONATHAN: the Spanish gold?
SLAVA: Yeah, not the press release; that's his press bio on his blog.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I know, I know.
SLAVA: Okay, who writes that? This guy does. every other author we've read, their bios, either from Wikipedia or their press package, they're all more or less serious. It just goes line by line about where they're from, what they've done, and the wars they won.
This guy, this guy's a little different.
JONATHAN: Yes. But, uh, you know, the Spanish gold is what gives Will his, uh, humor. Cursed Spanish gold.
SLAVA: I wish I had some cursed Spanish gold.
JONATHAN: Me too. I just exercise the Poltergeist and then ask it to, uh, to duplicate. Not the Poltergeist, the gold. Just to clarify
SLAVA: Keep wishing for more wishes.
JONATHAN: I don't know. We've learned that lesson. That doesn't work. It's a broken system.
SLAVA: Especially with two psychos like us, uh, breaking each other's wishes.
JONATHAN: Speak for yourself. I'm less of a psycho and a more of a psych. Uh,
SLAVA: That's
JONATHAN: it's early. It's early. I don't, I can't have humor because I don't have cursed Spanish gold.
SLAVA: There it is.
JONATHAN: Okay, I, I just want to bring something up, and I'm sure that I talked about this in the last Cradlebook; I don't remember the details, but so Will wins all these awards for audiobooks, for New York Best Times, on these subreddits, for the Stabdy Awards, and then he, he wraps up the series, 12 books, Waybound, that's it, we're done, but clearly, The audience wants more.
SLAVA: Yes, you mentioned this.
JONATHAN: Yes. Yes. And I'm going to make the same point again in hopes. And this is not a jab in the sense of judgment. Well, I guess it kind of is judgment. It's not a jab in the sense of punishment. It's like, Hey, we want more. We'll pay you for it.
SLAVA: You're not mad you're disappointed.
JONATHAN: Thanks, dad. If I want to disappoint two people at once, I'll just have dinner with my parents. Oh, man. But yeah, I, I, I'm so adamant about, like, if your book is really selling well, then give us a little more, you don't have to like to keep it, you know, throttle ten the way that he was doing just to blow through the series. Thanks. Because I understand authors want to write other stuff, and you should because that might blow up too, but at least give us a drip, like one cradle book.
Every year and a half or something like that. You know, that's just my, you know, focus on your other series is, but give us a little something here and there because like you'll keep the audience excited, you'll keep us wanting to pay you money. We can make those animated pieces that you want to make because we also want to watch them.
SLAVA: I suppose I'll ask this question for real when we get to the final book, But I'm wondering, each time you say this, I always wonder when is enough, when does the story end
JONATHAN: so I really, really want to quote something from a book 10 at you that,
SLAVA: caught away
JONATHAN: well,
SLAVA: if it's not gonna spoil a plot
JONATHAN: It does because of where these characters are at the moment. I will just say that I want more. There's a hunger.
There's an insatiable hunger that needs to be filled. Hunger Madra.
SLAVA: You have a hole that only Will White can fill
JONATHAN: Yeah, it's true. It's somewhere. Nevermind. It's somewhere. It's somewhere in the deep.
SLAVA: Recesses of your body.
JONATHAN: I purposefully abstained from saying the word on my body. Specifically for that reason. Oh my gosh. Well, I guess we're back, folks. We're, we're, we're definitely back because you're getting the same nonsense you always get.
SLAVA: 12 minutes in, and we have devolved already.
JONATHAN: yeah. Woof.
SLAVA: Well, with that out of the way, let's continue the conversation about him writing Cradle. So you obviously want more out of this. You definitely know more about the Cradle series than I do. You're a super fan, I would say. What do you know about White's inspiration for Cradle?
Where did that all come from? How did this project come about?
JONATHAN: I will get into that in just a second, but I think to be a super fan, all you have to do is give him money. I've bought the last four Kickstarter CSAD, no three, three. So, let's see the animated series. Books one through three. I missed; I got four through six. So that was one Kickstarter. I back bought the last set and then I bought the new set.
And yeah, four, four Kickstarters. So, I think I've just purchased the title. I don't know if I've actually earned it.
SLAVA: either way.
JONATHAN: Same, Same,
SLAVA: Same, same. Take it away, super fan.
JONATHAN: Okay. Well, so, in some of the research, it's been noted that Will found his inspiration for Cradle by mixing and synthesizing a few of the things that he actually loves, which are progression fantasy, martial arts, and Eastern cultivation novels.
and in our last guest episode, we heard from J. T. diving in a little more in depthly than you or I were familiar with on the Eastern Cultivation Novel. So I won't actually focus on that because we're going to have him back during our guest episode. And we're going to have a new guest, a new old guest, new old, old, new, old, new, new guest, uh, that you guys are familiar with who decided that they wanted to read Cradle.
And so they're going to join us. So we're going to have a massive six-person guest episode. it might just be chaos and
it might be great. I don't know. anyway, so Will created a story centered around a character who grows stronger through a structured system and path for personal improvement that requires him, overcoming challenges, both external and internal.
Because he was inspired by those Chinese web novels.
But the biggest thing that Will wanted to look at in writing this was he wanted to explore what it meant to have a character seek power, but that character still remains grounded by their personal values and motivations. And this is one of the reasons that we constantly see, and we've talked about this, like, Linden still goes, Oh, apologies.
Oh, gratitude. Even though he's clearly more powerful than the other characters, I think we start to see that contrast more and more, starting in Sky Sworn. I was going to call it Skyward. It's different; that's a Sanderson novel. Sky sworn. And you're like, why is he still being so humble when he's in an honor culture, that's, you know, dog-eat-dog world.
And it's because of this. It's Will's main thesis for what he was looking to explore. It's what if a character seeks power but remains grounded in their personal values and motivations every time? I think this is really relatable for the readers because throughout the whole time we were growing up, there's always this like, I just want power, he-man!
And people like, are, they say, you know, power corrupts absolutely. I think there's a human desire to see power used well. And I won't go down a spiritual or theology note on this one, but there's a hunger in the human hearts for seeing power used, with a true measure of justice and mercy from characters and people.
So, a short story about Will's motivations is needed. And I'm sure there's more than that that JT might be able to dive into with us. But that's what I dug up.
SLAVA: I see Yeren doing the same thing, struggling with the same issues internally, right? Throughout the story, Yeren grapples with her blood shadow, this parasitic entity that can consume her. And although the Blood Shadow boosts her power, she does have fears about it taking over, And I think it creates a great internal conflict for her because she's, you know, bristly, she's curt, terse, she's very pragmatic, this is the way it is, says her mind. That's the outside of Eren. That's a survival response, maybe. But she does have an internal contact between relying on its power and staying true to herself.
And I couldn't give you specifics now, I would have to go back to the, my Kindle books and my highlights, but she is hesitant to unleash it fully, I think, and that, that speaks to what, You just said about Linden, we see Yeren struggle with the same stuff.
JONATHAN: Oh, a hundred percent. we're gonna, we're actually going to get a lot more with Yeren in, let's see, this is Underlord. Next up is Uncrowned, I think. Does that sound right?
SLAVA: You know Wintersteel.
JONATHAN: No, no, no. Wintersteel happens afterward. I'm looking, I'm looking. yeah, Uncrowned, because there's a tournament coming up. So it's Underlord, Uncrowned, uh, because it's the Uncrowned King tournament, where we get to see a few actually really key things happen for Yeren, and then Uncrowned has this thing that happened in, which was the other book? Oh, the end of Soulsmith where you're like, Oh, he has this duel.
So something happens at the end of Uncrowned that doesn't actually wrap up until the following book. It's a really great cliffhanger, and it, it, it happens at the beginning of Wintersteel book eight, but it's just one of those moments where it feels like a nineties TV show, like what will happen next time to the Power Rangers?
Will they make it out, or will they finally be conquered? I forget her name.
SLAVA: looking forward to it.
JONATHAN: it'll be fun. Yaron, Yaron, and her blood shower shadow are going to get a little more play in the next two books. So, excited for that.
SLAVA: Yeah, me too. I kind of felt like I couldn't get into this book as much as I did the others because there's just so much going on in my personal life and work life. I was just constantly busy, and when I read this, I was actually preparing for my trip for the wedding I was in
so there's a lot of stuff just Taking my attention, but as I was preparing for this podcast and doing notes and going back and rereading some stuff that I highlighted, I was like, Oh yeah, this is a pretty decent book. made me remember that I also love Cradle and want to see what happens next.
JONATHAN: Yeah, that happens sometimes. And that's honestly one of the things that I have been thinking about for the last hundred episodes. Is this idea of, like, look, sometimes you and I have a lot going on? We still read the book, but we don't get the immersion in the book the way that we want to.
And that's why I really wanted to hone the brand in to be like, it's a casual book club. Just show up, read what you can just show up. Well, you and I can't read what we can. We read the whole thing for the rest of you guys. this is that type of book club where just show up and enjoy. And if you didn't read it and you were like, I don't want to commit to reading this, and then you hear us talk about it, you go, Oh, actually, that sounds kind of interesting.
And then you can go back and read it. it's almost like an oral cliff notes of sorts,
SLAVA: Yeah, I like that.
JONATHAN: you know, and it's not just one person badgering you about it. It's, you know, it's a discussion of like, well, what, what do you think about Lyndon and you know, JT coming in with like, I just see him like pushing his glasses up.
Okay. Now. Here's the thing about cultivation novels, which we need. I want an expert like that. Who's too specifically talks about stuff like that, but I just, that's the way that I see a shout out. JT can't wait to have you back. but you did tell me and I'll, give you guys a little behind the scenes here, you said that this was your favorite book so far.
SLAVA: Did I?
had, maybe I had an internal conflict. I did say that now that I'm thinking about it.
JONATHAN: of the series,
of the series,
not necessarily everything we've read.
SLAVA: and that's because of Yeren and Linden's Arcs in this book. I think their internal struggles, which we'll get into in a little bit, and their relationship.
I think their relationship has entered a new phase. because they're now both Underlords. they went through this horrific thing where Aaron could have died, and I think they've become closer. And the internal struggles are a lot more defined by the wrong word, pronounced maybe, or maybe they're the same as in any of the other books on the same level, I mean, given the same attention by the author, but to me, I was paying attention more.
I even would re listen to a couple of, the scenes specifically where everybody thought Yeren was going to die.
JONATHAN: Yeah, what were you feeling when you were reading that? Because I know Yaren's one of your favorite characters in the book. Uh, I'll share my thoughts afterward, but I want to hear yours first.
SLAVA: I was honestly afraid that she would die. I thought Will White would kill her off.
JONATHAN: Mm. Hmm.
SLAVA: And based on some of the cryptic answers I got from you. And I was like, wait a minute. When Jonathan said that Yeren goes away in a book and I'm like, I forget what book she, he says that she goes away. is this what he meant?
Goes away.
JONATHAN: Okay. Tommy's grandpa went away forever.
SLAVA: I was a little disappointed thinking that man, Yeren, might die. And listen, I'm the type of guy that I don't need happy endings or clean storylines. It's okay. It's okay. To, you know, kill off a character. It's okay to show. the reality of a world such as this that's what makes the book believable,
even though it's a, you know, a fantasy, not a fantasy, it's a fantastical world.
It's not based on a real place. so when she wasn't dead, I was like, Oh, okay. I was invested. It took me for a ride. You know,
JONATHAN: For me during this reread, cause I reread it, well, I was on my honeymoon I think I did myself a disservice because I was not at all worried about her. I was like, I don't feel like, and not even thinking like, Oh, well, there's another, you know, X amount of books. I was thinking this doesn't feel.
Like there's enough tension around her death. I almost wanted there to be a few more instances of let's try this. It didn't work. Let's try this to build that tension just a little more. But the reason I say that, and this is where the disservice comes in is I had just finished rereading all Stormlight Archives.
I'm living in, you know, 200 hours of audiobooks. 60 chapters of Kaladin almost killing himself or dying. so I think that the contrast there for me was simply like, I was coming out of a very long emotional journey and switched over to, you know, I'm going to call it pop fiction basically because it's so fast.
And I was like, Oh, well, that ended quickly. it didn't hold the same tension, but I was contrasting it with the book that I just finished, right? Because I remember the first time I read this and I thought something similar not my favorite character. She's a favorite character, but not the favorite character right for me. I was like, oh man, I really hope she doesn't die But like I could understand if she did so it's interesting when you When you read a different book or you're reading a different book in tandem, right, and you, you flavor the text of what you're reading.
So,
SLAVA: Yeah.
JONATHAN: didn't dislike it, still very much love the Cradle series, but that was this read through's, direct emotional response in those moments.
SLAVA: Yeah, and for me, I read this first because I wanted to get it out of the way because I knew we're doing Sanderson, uh, Words of Radiance, and I dived into Words of Radiance right after, so for me, I didn't have that Sanderlange, uh, Exposition of
everything that's going. like heroin.
Yeah. Right. So I started with. White and pop fiction, as you say, everything moves fast because I wanted that out of the way, and then I went into Sanderson
So I got to experience it a little bit different way, but I can see how that happens when you have a book that takes sometimes 20 chapters to Describe or go through an event or an arc, and then this happens in like
12
JONATHAN: A chapter. Yeah. It's like taking a shot or sipping on a nice scotch for an hour and a half. Right?
It's, that's, that's how I see it. It's like, Oh, it's so quick. And not that that's a bad thing. Like it fits for the world, it's, it's, it's a hundred percent. you know, this isn't a knock. It fits in the world.
They're fighting. It's a fast moving thing. it's just, I set myself up and, and this is one of the things about, reading books that I think that we should take into consideration is just, if you're reading, I read a lot of business books, so if I'm reading a business book, it's not going to interfere with the flavor text of a cradle or a, or a Sanderson or, Strogatzky brothers, right.
It's so different, but if it's familiar in the same realm, then it has the opportunity to flavor it. So
SLAVA: Yep.
JONATHAN: enough on that.
SLAVA: I think a nice dovetail to this would be a side quest, within a side quest, here on about the fears and challenges our friends, Lyndon, Aaron, and Mercy, kind of face to become underlords. put Linden aPutYeren more specifically, but oh no, MMercybecomeMMercy becomesd, underlady andoan o.
JONATHAN: Yeah. She has to, uh, she has a different path, though, because she comes from such a wealthy family
and she was doing her little rebellion thing. in our lives. And this is, I think I've mentioned this at least in the first three cradle books. we are all encouraged to pursue personal development. Some of us take up the challenge and mantle and some of us don't. But in pursuing, if you're a person who takes up the mantle in your own life, And this is not you comparing with someone else.
It's just taking the mantle up in your own life. You will encounter moments like these characters, Lyndon, Yaron, and MMercy where you have to confront yourself. Cause that's where the real leaps of personal growth happen. Where you go, Oh, for Lyndon, I fear falling behind. For Yarin, you know, I fear isolation, and like Linden overshadowing her and, and Mercy fears hurting her friends.
Right. until you confront these things in yourself, and that means two things. It confront means being honest with yourself that it exists and that's how you feel, and then, not to get too Jungian on you, but you have to integrate that into your life. And that looks a bunch of different ways. So I'm not going to get into that, but integrating that fear to move past it by conquering it.
making it a part of you and fueling it forward. That always speaks to me because I am, I am one of those people who picked up the torch for personal growth. sometimes reluctantly, uh, maybe, maybe oftentimes reluctantly. cause I just got sick of myself. I got sick of like, well, what was me?
And then you sit there long enough. You're like, man, I am such an annoying little dweeb. But the only person who's going to do something about it is you. No one's going to do your laundry for you. No one's going to go grocery shopping for you. No one's going to make you lose weight. it's gotta be you.
You have to do it yourself. Like, yeah, you can hire someone to do it. Or if you live with your parents, like they might do it for you. But at the end of the day, like you will not have the life you want, which is available. I just want to emphasize that you get to have the life that you want. If you're willing to pay the cost and the cost is oftentimes hard work and confronting your personal growth.
you can have the life you want. I'm going to reiterate this three or four times. You can have the life you want if you are willing to pay the cost. The cost is confronting your personal growth and addressing things that you're not addressing. So anyway, I love these moments where Will made it a part of the story that the characters have to confront themselves and their internal struggles. To get higher levels of power, because I truly believe that that's how the world works. You, you don't just fall into success. You have to work really, really hard.
And oftentimes that means working on yourself or cause we've all seen this. You play into all of your worst strengths. like we see people who trample on others and find a way to be super successful, but nobody likes them. And it's like, well, there are other ways to do it. You're not gonna like at the top, you're going to be alone.
Like North Strider, literally alone.
SLAVA: and I want to take what you just said and apply it to the book in the way that we can discuss some of these moments and also Ask you which one of these, and I'll answer this question too. Which one of these do you identify with most? So for Lyndon,
fear of falling behind, as Lyndon advances towards Underlord, Yeren contemplates her fear that he might surpass and move on without her.
and at the same time, like a deep seated care for him. As we see in this book, you know, Lyndon admits to himself that he's At the same time as Yaron's going through this, He's afraid of Yeren surpassing him and leaving him behind, she's always been a step or 10 ahead of him since he met her, you know, and this coupled with his ongoing journey of self worth, you know, apologies.
And this one, Creates a nice tension, I think, as he tries to keep up with her strength and skill. And when it comes to MMercy she knows that she has to make a tough decision. That she has to go back to her family. She can't stay with Yaren and Linden.
The right thing to do is to separate herself from them, which actually allows her to protect them. But also, might weaken their friendship. So it's gonna look like a difficult farewell. For me, it's Yeren. I don't Mind being alone. I don't like being lonely, you know what I mean?
And so her fear of being left behind because she's all alone. She got her mentor That's not the right word for it But her i'm going to use the word her mentor who taught her all this stuff got her To be self sufficient and able to defend herself and move move forward And she has an inner drive to always move forward She's taken up the mantle to use your word But at the same time, she is self sufficient, but afraid of being truly alone, because she has nobody besides Lyndon, and And Aethon, and now MMercy
I think MMercy'sgonna grow on her. for me,
I,
JONATHAN: her,
but yes.
SLAVA: right, right, So for me, it's definitely Yaren.
JONATHAN: Give me a hug. Oh, why are you touching me?
SLAVA: right, exactly. I see myself like a briskly, prickly outside, and a more softer inside. Cause I might not have a lot of sentiments in life. I'm not prone to sentimentality, as I mentioned before.
But I do have a softer side, and maybe that's not even the right term, but I think the audience and you know what I'm getting at. There are some things that I am prone to care about deeply, not just brush him off as, well, who cares what John thinks about me or who cares what Bob said in last week's meeting.
Like that kind of stuff I don't care about, but I I am prone to emotion, you know, deep emotion when something moves me. And I think I see that in Yarin. With her fear of isolation, with her fear of Linden surpassing her. that's, that's where I really identified with Yeren even more so.
My identification with her as a character, my love for her as a character was more solidified in this book because of those things. Now obviously, you are connected to Linden, but maybe you can go a little bit deeper into that.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I will in a second. I want you to just give a quick explanation to us, the audience. What's the difference between being alone and being lonely, to the best of your ability, right? Cause we didn't, we didn't pre-talk about this. So kind of throwing it at you on the fly.
SLAVA: I'm happy to answer that. So, alone means, from something as simple as just being alone, like you don't have a wife, you don't have a girlfriend, you maybe you're separated from some of your friends, you are posted somewhere on in your job where you don't have a lot of interaction with humans.
That's just some of the simplest things, and I think that covers the gamut where it's a geographical aloneness or being alone as not having a significant other, or maybe even a lot of friends. We're only having one or two friends being lonely. Is being completely isolated, whether it's, geographical, emotional, physical isolation.
And so those examples that I just said, there's a myriad of reasons why one might be alone as a no significant other, might not have a lot of friends, it could be self-inflicted, it could be, I don't know, you were arrested and put in solitary confinement, it could be Myriad of issues, but that's for me is the difference where even if you don't have let's say a significant other or you don't have a lot of friends, or You are posted somewhere for your job where it just takes up all your time where you don't have a lot of Access to people at least in those moments You might have a Linden a year and a mercy in your life, whether it's a church community, a bowling league where you go and you find yourself among other people and you don't feel lonely, even though you might be alone in whatever example I just said, and it could be a combination of those examples, so I don't mind being alone.
I don't mind being put somewhere else. I am separated from a lot of my friends, as long as I know that they're still my friends, like the guy who got married, I was the best man at his wedding, Adam. We've known each other for 20 years. Sometimes we went months without speaking. But whenever we call each other, it says, if we spoke yesterday, same with you and same way this podcast actually started, go listen to episode 99 so that's for me is the difference between being alone and being lonely.
And for a year in here's where my supporting evidence comes in for a year. And she truly doesn't have anybody. The person who saved her and trained her and made her who she is, which helps her survive in this world of Cradle, he's gone and. She finds, although she won't admit it, she finds purpose in doing the same thing for Lyndon.
And now she has a love for Lyndon. And before this book, I think it was always a sisterly love. There's probably a little bit more romantic tension in this book for me. Maybe I'm reading into it. Maybe I'm not. But she does have a love for Lyndon, a true care for him. And so if he Leaves her, I don't know why she would think tha,t but she does, and is probably because of her background. So I understand it in that sense if he leaves her, She'll be truly alone like she was before she found Lyndon, and I think that's what scares the crap out of her
JONATHAN: We actually see a moment like this at the end of, I think it was Black Flame where she's recovering and Ethan comes into the room and she has like this inner dialogue. And I wish I had pulled it up beforehand, but she has one of those emotional moments where she thinks about things like, oh, I might be alone.
Cause she's deciding whether or not to join the Aurelius family. And Linda has already agreed to join. So, As a response to your, like, I don't know why she thinks that way. It's like, well, we all think like we all, we all think these weird thoughts, that are like, Oh, that's a, that's a weird thought.
And they're, they fears and things. And, you know, from my perspective, it's actually a medical, not medical. It's a meta ethic, ordeal where not every thought you have is your own. Sometimes, it's your subconscious. Sometimes it's the Lord. Sometimes it's the devil, but like not every thought you have is your own and you need to know the difference.
SLAVA: before you move on. I just want to Put an asterisk or a footnote to my definitions of alone and lonely. I think being alone and being okay with being alone means being by oneself, It's a, it's a state. It doesn't necessarily imply any particular emotional, or psychological feelings and being lonely.
Happens when people are disconnected, isolated, even if they are surrounded by people.
JONATHAN: So you stole my thunder because I was going to tell you that being alone is a state of being and being lonely is an emotional place of living.
thanks for stealing my thunder. So I hope you feel good about yourself.
SLAVA: I do. I have surpassed you in Jungian philosophy.
JONATHAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well you, well, let's circle back because you asked me about Lyndon and explaining a little more on my end, why I feel like Lyndon. we gotta go back to book one. If you are a regular listener, which a lot of you are, you, you know, that I talk about my birth defect regularly.
Well, that how do I even put this, uh, into a short explanation, but when you're born with something that literally affects your, state of living, and it's not, uh, Like other normal human bodies, average human bodies. it sets you apart. And then if there's a deformity physically on you, like there is on me, then that affects your social status.
And it means when you're growing up, you can't always go to pool parties because you're embarrassed. you have to deal with a lot more stuff that happens later for other people in middle school, high school, when you're growing up. but as like a kid who's, five to 10, when other people start dealing with these things more regularly when they're teenagers, and I didn't have an option because kids are cruel and my body doesn't look the same as other kids.
My body doesn't function the same. And so with Lyndon, always feeling behind and being treated differently. feeling like the black sheep of your family, not just cause you like nerd things, but because like, Oh, I'm a nerd. No, I actually am super different from my family, just like physiologically, you know, body functional.
And it's like, well, I need to go for like a little peek behind the curtain. I drive everywhere. I don't let anyone else drive. you could say it's a control thing because like, because of the birth defect, like I have to go to the bathroom at much more regular intervals than other people. because of it, I also can't hold it the way that other people do because of the kidney stone, crystals.
And so like for Lyndon, it's always feeling like you're on the outside and you're never going to catch up to people and you're never going to. fit in, in that sense. And so you have to carve your own path. You have to carve your twin paths. And so seeing a character like this, as well as one who like yearns for power, to simply overcome his internal and external states, but still wanting to be grounded in his personal values and motivations, all of that resonates very deeply with me.
Linden also, it's not clear, but I would say he's a, um, a community oriented person and he actually draws community toward himself, which is another thing that I resonate with. And so his idea of like fear of falling behind part of my drive for the last decade has been like, I am behind. And the only way to catch up is to work so hard and to be exhausted.
There was a time I was working three jobs, a normal day job that paid normal stuff and then running Uber and doing side gigs that I'd pick up on the internet for freelance. like, there were times where I'd have to just stop Ubering and find a parking lot and take a nap. Cause I was so exhausted, This fear of falling behind or being behind, I think is actually quite normal when you finally wake up because I think a lot of, a lot of millennials are still asleep.
Not all of them. Some of them have been working hard on their careers and stuff, but I meet a lot of them who are, who are behind because they haven't put the work in because no one, no one hands you a house. No one hands you a job that makes good money enough to like the world keeps changing. And so you have to, Adapt or you will fall behind.
So, those are just a few quips, and personal testimonies from myself and my life and things that I've gone through, and have had to confront. Because, you know, your parents, you don't know, you don't even know how to explain it when you're a kid. And you're like, well, I don't want to go to my friend's house for the sleepover.
because I look different or, I have to go to the bathroom way more than everyone else. And kids don't understand. They just, they're curious and ask questions, but you, as the person dealing with it are embarrassed because you know, other people don't deal with this and like, you don't know what emotions are because you're six.
So it's just like, okay, well, it's better to not feel that way. So I don't feel that way if I don't go
SLAVA: Yeah, exactly. And not to crap on your parents, but it seems like, An intuitive parent, somebody who's attuned with their kid's needs, would understand why Jonathan doesn't want to go to Billy's house.
JONATHAN: well, both my parents have, um, and I didn't even say this colloquial, both my parents have deep trauma from their childhood they gave us a really beautiful gift and not repeating the cycles that their parents gave them with the, um, the physical abuse and the other abuse that they, that they went through.
And so I don't think that they. We're capable. And this isn't a slight against them. It's just like,
sometimes you just don't know what you're dealing with. You know, my, my parents were concerned that I was going to die when I was born. So like, there was just this, like, I don't know if he's going to live.
There was an emotional detachment that happened. Like, I mean, happy to get into it at a different episode, but, I don't disagree with you. But, holding the mirror up for themselves was not something that they could even consider. and I, the thing is I have to deal with the consequences of that, right?
So like I had to go to therapy. I had to figure out like, well, why am I feeling this? Why, why do other people not deal with this? And, and that's, I mean, going back to Lyndon, that's why I feel very close to Lyndon where it's like, he didn't have anybody. Even when he gets Aethon, he's like, I don't know if I can trust this person.
Even Yeren. He's like, I mean, she's kind of there, but I don't know if she's going to show up this time. And like, there's this constant distrust of other people. because you just don't know if people are to be relied on because so far in your life, they haven't been able to be relied on. Um, so now that we're down this deep rabbit hole, Uh, and I don't know how to get us back, but, uh, feel free to whatever.
SLAVA: So if you guys are enjoying these kind of sidequests, here's another reason for you to subscribe to the show so you can support this show right now by sharing it with a fellow booklover and somebody else who wants to join this casual book club.
But I think our next quest, our next segment, we should focus on some of your notes here, setting up the world. I think that was a, a great thing you dropped in to our, uh, template here. So let's, uh, let's unpack, Two or three of these things that you have here. let me start.
And then maybe you can pick another one. So like the hierarchy of power and advancement paths, I chose that one out of your list, because I think that sets up the world because the world is more than, Oh, this is, 1500s Venice, like it was for Liza Locke Lamora, which is
part of the world building. Heck yeah.
Which is part of world building and the river systems and the boats and the clothes that they wear. That's all part of world building too, but there's more to the world building than just that. Here, the concept of a hierarchy of power, I think, is central to the Cradle series. not only individual character arcs, but also the socio political landscape, if you will, of the world.
In Underlord, this hierarchy is organized into levels. in other books, too. So you have Jade, Gold, and Black. Underlord and beyond. And each one represents a stage of cultivation or personal and spiritual development and achieving all these levels. Requires a blend of personal insight, physical skill, demanding that the individuals unlock quote unquote truths about themselves.
So that itself is the reality, the metaphysics, if you will, of this world. why I chose this, because I think it creates tangible goals for characters. Each characters is in a path that's defined by their efforts. This kind of goes back to, we just mentioned a few minutes ago to reach the next level.
It makes power progression, a reflection of personal growth. And that I totally understand why, you know, you connect with Linden because for Linden and Yeren reaching Underlord is not just about gaining strength or power. It's about solidifying their identities, fears, ambitions, their insecurities, all that stuff.
fear of insignificance fuels his path in the Sacred Arts. And for me, while Yeren's fear of loneliness drives her to pursue power to protect those she cares about, because she feels fulfilled in being able to do what she's done for Linden, for example.
So as I was reading your notes, I thought, wow, we haven't done this on other episodes, and I think we should do it moving forward, Explain that it takes so much more to build a world than just, well, it's a planet in the Cosmere and the magic system is X.
That's the integral part. That's an important part. You can't have, you can't have hierarchy of power and advancement paths to use your title for it without an actual world, right? So you have to build the other stuff. You have to build the physical world. if you will, before you can put in the, all the socio political, socioeconomic and all the cultural stuff in it, but I think this this really.
Makes it pop. mean the world of Cradle.
JONATHAN: it does world building is, and I feel like a philosophy 101 student, because I don't know how to say this more eloquently, but world building is nuanced. And the thing is, I just don't know a better way to explain this because you quoted the Cosmere, and I think that's a great example. If you're a writer and you are looking to do more worldbuilding, Sanderson has actual full lectures of his class that he teaches at BYU, or BUR, or whatever college he teaches.
Be an adult. That's the college he goes to. Um,
whatever.
SLAVA: somewhere in Utah. I think
JONATHAN: Yeah. they're really good. But he has a full two ser uh, sermons. A full two, uh, lessons on worldbuilding. And you have to pick the items you're going to focus on. To your point, like, Okay. It has to be a little bit about the geographics, a little about the culture, a little about maybe the weather, the magic system.
If you have one, like you have to pick two or three of these, and then you have to filter in almost some sub topics, to quote Liza Locke Lamora too, like Luciano, Jean constantly quotes Luciano in other books moving forward and Luciano is like a playwright and a poet in the world. Okay. We never read any of his books, but Jean quotes them because you all have friends who quote things that they like, whether it's a movie, or Seinfeld, or whatever, we, yeah, you have friends who quote things.
That's a normal human thing, and you go, oh, I know, I know people who quote things, and so now you relate with the character, even though you don't know who Luciano is. So. There's a, there's a lot of nuance in making the world that you build feel authentic. and it's really, really hard because we've all read books that you're like, eh, I don't believe this world.
And then you should ask the question, why
anyway,
SLAVA: That's good because it goes to a book that we really hated reading a head full of ghosts and it's set in reality like it's set in the real world and Obviously the supernatural part of it is what?
You know, supposed to
be
JONATHAN: really there. Yeah.
SLAVA: was supposed to be the unreality or the fantastical, portion of the book, at least that's what the author claimed, but because of the way the folks acted in that book, I couldn't get into it. I'm like, there's nobody that talks like this,
except for the father. And then you use the worst of the worst to make a point in the book.
You make them into a caricature, which we won't go down that route again. But you're absolutely right. How you set up certain structures. In your world, whether they're the cultural or philosophical or religious makes it believable or not. It adds to the believability of the story for sure.
JONATHAN: anyway, that's a little bit about world building. question I have for the audience is, Are you building a world? And if so, tell us about it. I would love to have a side quest that's focused around your guys worlds that you're building where Slav and I come in and ask questions and there may be Even a time where we invite you on, we've had a couple authors reach out who are new authors and independent authors and go, Hey, I wrote this book.
It sounds like stuff that you guys read would love to know what you think of it. And so we're considering what that looks like moving forward to have, you, our guests, be considered on the podcast to discuss your book that you're writing or whatever. So, something to consider for those of you who are in the writer realm.
SLAVA: Cause as we grow and what I said to one of the authors that reached out, I said, as we grow, we definitely want to have authors on, it's just the way we built what we have now, that's an extra segment or an extra arm of the podcast. Yeah. So we. Moving into 2025, we already have a schedule built out, recording schedule, book schedule, but as we move into 2025, there.
Our steps we're taking to be able to accomplish that. So as we're building the foundation, please, uh, reach out to us specifically on Instagram, DM us. I run the Instagram account. I'm very responsive, people DM me. Give us ideas, send us your stuff, And like I said, as we build this foundation, we'll start, start working on making this a reality.
before we leave this segment, Jonathan, why don't you pick one of the, the titles here you have? Because they're all great, but I think we should limit ourselves to two. So you pick another one and let's talk about another world building segment.
JONATHAN: at the risk of Beating a dead horse. my segment that I really, am drawn to, is the balance between personal growth and external conflict. specifically to stuff that I mentioned earlier this episode, where my external conflict was society, not being a part of it, not feeling a part of it, clearly having differences from other people, and then having to choose personal growth, I can't tell you how many times I had to.
Sit alone and journal. It was, it was basically a lifeline for me to determine my personal growth. And like, am I going to settle for living this way the rest of my life? Or am I willing to do the hard work and open the bandage and let the wound air out and confront it and see what happens. If it'll heal, it's hard.
The thing is like, I talk about it, uh, almost nonchalantly sometimes, but it's difficult. if you've had healing moments like this, you know what I'm talking about, where like, once you're through it, you're like, oh. It's not that it wasn't that bad. It's that I was able to do it. Which are two different statements.
Which is why I love, not just Linden, Orthos. Another good, you know, a staunch curmudgeon. And I'll let Slava define what a curmudgeon is in a minute. a staunch curmudgeon, and we've seen him grow. every character gets the opportunity of growth. Even Ethan, who is almost a, not a God, monarch, type character for where the power levels are at, because he was an under Lord when everyone else was like a low gold, and he has Linden, Linden's arms, uh, his arm gets cut off and he has to apologize to his little brother.
Because he's like, yeah, I did let that get out of control. I'm sorry. But the thing is his I'm sorry, doesn't change the fact that Linden still lost an arm. Like that was a really emotional moment for personal growth for Linden to, to decide, like, am I going to hold this person accountable for the rest of my life? Or am I going to deal with it? it's a struggle that we all have to have, because I don't, I haven't met anyone who's never been wronged before. And the thing about forgiveness is, you're setting that person free from needing to pay for what they did, it doesn't mean you have to trust them again.
That's just a little life lesson, not necessarily related to Lyndon and Ethan, but, Yeah, I have a very deep personal tie, in books that have personal growth versus external conflicts that characters have to, to endure. So, that for me is, Just key world building and I think we've seen that throughout the podcast, if you're a regular listener here that, not just the sentiments that I offer, but the books that I choose as well.
SLAVA: well a curmudgeon for those who are curious is usually a person who's stubborn, a little prickly, they're critical of things, they're easily annoyed, usually walk around all grumpy, but as most curmudgeons, and sometimes I'm one, they can be endearing.
JONATHAN: Thanks Orthos.
SLAVA: But only, but only their grumpiness is mixed with curiosity. Humor and hidden kindness. That's what it says here on the definition I'm reading.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I noticed. I noticed because whenever you speak super, directly and eloquently, I'm like, ah, he's reading something.
SLAVA: yeah, cause like I said, in the episode 99, I am the Elaine of the podcast, I will break and stumble over my words at least once in every segment.
JONATHAN: Well, at least you remember most of your words. I mean, you had one, one moment this episode, but it was two moments in episode 99 for me. I'm like, what is this word? I don't know this word. Now, granted, you guys are culpable in being guilty for not remembering the word either. But, so be it. Did you have any thoughts on my, um, world building stuff there,
Slava?
SLAVA: yeah, one thought. I think Will White in the Cradle series consistently Linden and his companions, specifically Yeren here, the ones we're following, even MMercyfor this book and the previous, with struggles and challenges they face from rival factions, big world scale threats, And cosmic threats and conflicts that are going on around them.
And it puts them in the middle of these things. And then those internal struggles are happening at the same time. I think white does that exceptionally well. And the more and more we talk about it, the more and more I'm like, yeah, this is, this is definitely a great use of this genre for what he's trying to do.
JONATHAN: I agree. I agree. So, since we're sort of immersed in the world at the moment, let's do a little, another side quest here that I thought of that I wanted to run us through. What would your personal path be, if you were living in the world of Cradle? And what would be one of your sacred arts techniques?
SLAVA: Good question, good
Okay. I think I'm ready.
JONATHAN: So you've had a moment or two to think. So what do you think your personal path is in the sacred arts and a technique or two?
SLAVA: Well, because Of my work, my job, which includes strategy and creativity, you know, digital strategy specifically, we're going to go with the path of the visionary forge.
JONATHAN: Exciting. What? What is that? What? What is that? I will tell you Those sound like fun words. What is that?
SLAVA: well, it's a sacred arts focus that draws upon the innovative Madra a unique blend of insight aura and creation aura.
On this path, I have a very rare balance of visionary foresight and the power to mold ideas and people into tangible, impactful
forms.
JONATHAN: a dictator. So you're a
dictator.
SLAVA: am some sort of demigod that can apparently
JONATHAN: Hold up. Hold up. You're not a demigod, you're just a dictator. We'll call you Salazar.
SLAVA: I don't know what that means, but fine.
JONATHAN: Salazar was a dictator in Portugal
SLAVA: Okay.
JONATHAN: the like, uh,
fifties to the 74, something like that. It is like 20 something years.
SLAVA: Yes. Okay. So I
JONATHAN: Azar. Sure.
SLAVA: Azar.
JONATHAN: Azar. What, what would one of your techniques be?
SLAVA: So I will have. The Forger's Flame, which is a creative force that fuels the act of building and adapting. by channeling creation aura, I can mold ideas or structures in real time.
JONATHAN: Mm. And how do you advance in your path?
SLAVA: Well, my path focuses heavily on internal insight and external influence. Ahaha, see how this works,
people?
JONATHAN: hmm. Mm hmm.
SLAVA: to get all the way to under Lord and possibly beyond, you have to establish a foundation of mental resilience. You have to mark your ability also to empower others around you and Eventually, you'll become nearly unbreakable in your mental defense.
JONATHAN: Exciting. It's quite the path. Do you have any disciples?
SLAVA: Many, many disciples. I just create them out of thin air, apparently.
JONATHAN: Uh huh.
SLAVA: So they're like the
the undead from Warbreaker.
JONATHAN: Oh
lifeless.
SLAVA: The lifeless. Yeah.
JONATHAN: Okay.
SLAVA: I don't know why this always happens, but I'm always some sort of a crazy dictator and all these scenarios that we planned out.
JONATHAN: I think it comes from your people.
SLAVA: Nah, probably. They just need a strong father figure to lead them, and I'm willing to take the mantle.
JONATHAN: It just reminds me of when we were talking about Baal and, uh, the cult.
SLAVA: What about you, Jonathan? What's your path?
JONATHAN: So my path took some creative brainstorming, but mine is the path of the ever expanding horizon. My path focuses on growth, adaptability, and vision. people who practice my path are often driven by, a desire to surpass limitations. Seek new knowledge and refine themselves continually. Oftentimes these people are strategic and they see opportunities in any situation and are known for their resilience and innovation.
SLAVA: So what's one of your techniques then?
JONATHAN: one of my techniques is the, uh, the resonance pulse. It's a powerful technique because every technique should be powerful. Maybe, but I release a pulse of aura tuned to the resonance of existing aura in an area or environment, and it helps me create harmony within my team. And I amplify my allies abilities while disrupting opponent's techniques or, uh, disabling their flow of energy.
SLAVA: Nice. What does it take to get to Underlord?
JONATHAN: You don't sound very, blown away by my resonance pulse, so
I'm not doing it
right.
SLAVA: No, I'm here creating lifeless for the war against your clan. So
JONATHAN: Oh, we're fighting. Okay.
All right. Okay.
Fair enough. Uh, well, to become an Underlord, you have to face a personal test called the Horizon Leap.
it's a profound solitary experience where you have to confront a vision of your ideal self against the future you wish to create. And the challenge is acknowledging your limitations and insecurities, kind of like I talked about, without letting them shake your foundation.
But only embracing your current self with the potential. So integrating, it's very Jungian, integrating yourself. Can you leap beyond your current horizon? So passing this stage would unify your physical, spiritual, and mental self. To create a more stable and enhanced aura for your underlord soul fire in the path of the ever expanding horizon,
SLAVA: Very nice. I like it. I look forward to us warring together.
JONATHAN: warring together or warring each other.
Cause those could be different
SLAVA: Yes. Yes,
each
JONATHAN: we could war together. I'm fine with that. where
where are we going to war?
I
mean, there's a, there's dozens of enemies we could pick from
dozens.
The Uruk hai
SLAVA: Yeah, who are the Who are the assholes to Linden that Well,
JONATHAN: pick one. There's a bunch.
SLAVA: right.
JONATHAN: You mean the sentient,
SLAVA: No, no, no. It was one of the clans from the early books that were just like complete,
JONATHAN: Oh, you mean Book One?
SLAVA: No, I book one. It was his clan that
JONATHAN: The Heaven's Glory school?
SLAVA: yeah, those guys.
JONATHAN: Yeah,
that was Book One.
that was the clan that didn't like his clan.
SLAVA: Yes.
JONATHAN: was also very rude.
So, anyway.
Yeah. You don't sound too impressed with my sacred path, my sacred arts path,
SLAVA: I'm impressed. You're doing pretty well for a Jade.
JONATHAN: that's demeaning, but okay.
SLAVA: I'm embracing the culture of, uh, the Cradle
JONATHAN: I've noticed, I've noticed. Why don't you give me instead, because your team's about to be defeated. some thoughts on the structures that Will uses in his plots. And, uh, we move on from the sacred paths. Although I do want to revisit this question for the rest of the squad when they come back on.
SLAVA: I'm going to pick one out of the list that we have here because it ties into everything we talked about. You know, in the previous, uh, segments and it's the goal oriented structure in Cradle, this is fundamental as each character has clear objectives, their actions are driven by something.
Their decisions are driven by internal, external forces and even relationships. So this structure, I think, gives us the readers a strong sense of purpose and direction. This is why. You identify with Linden and will aligns the structure, power hierarchy that the characters work through. To everything else. It's, uh, there's like sinew in between all of this. And I think that's what makes Lyndon relatable, Yarin relatable, especially as they face these things. Like you said, you can identify with X with Lyndon, I can identify with Y with Yarin. as they go through these obstacles on the way to reaching their goals, you're taking on a journey as they reach new levels, like Underlord. And as I mentioned before, it's more than a pursuit of power, right? It's a journey of self fulfillment, self discovery. It's survival. It's the protection of friends. So it's a building of community. And this goal oriented structure, I think, It's pretty straightforward.
And I think it creates a good framework for a series such as Cradle, because you get to be around your buddies, your, your team here through their struggles, motivation, their growth, evolution, it gives readers like an end game and that's where the question comes back up again, where does this end?
When, when, when does the story of Cradle end? but each time they're facing something, it seems like it intensifies and it's not a constant, intensification where like you craziness, you don't know what's going on. Just each obstacle is bigger than the last in some way it is because there's obstacles that they're facing now are bigger than they faced in book one, but at the same time as they grow, you see them conquering other obstacles that they probably couldn't have in book two.
Yeah. to use it as an example. So I think White is skillful. I think he does this really well. He frames each character's obstacles around their unique struggles, be it physical, mental, or emotional. I don't want to repeat what you said is believable because it is makes it believable, but it's more than that.
It's the word I like to use in these kinds of situations is robust. There's more to it than just A happened, then B happened, then C happened, and Linden one, and that's it.
JONATHAN: we've talked about this in other books not knowing what the characters want, having a goal oriented structure in the plot where it's like, Linden wants to grow. Ethan wants to not be alone at the top. Yarin wants whatever Yarin wants to not be alone. knowing where the characters are, to your point, And knowing where they want to go is vital to the reader.
And this has been my complaint in other books where it's like, well, what does the character want? we don't believe characters that are like, I guess I'll do this now. I guess I'll do that now. Even characters who are reluctant, we believe like Bilbo. Well, I don't want to go on an adventure. Well, you're going, but I don't want to go.
It doesn't matter. You're going anyway, that at least I know what he wants. He doesn't want to go on an adventure as opposed to lackadaisical characters were like, well, I guess I'll do this now. It's like Eeyore. I guess I'll do this now.
SLAVA: I'm picking up what you're putting down. Absolutely.
JONATHAN: So that's, honestly, one of the metrics that I use if you're a regular listener here to determine whether a book is good or not, because the character development Like, even if it's a plot based book and you don't get a whole lot of character development, I should at least get some. and to get some means I need to know where the character wants to go.
definitely love the goal oriented structure that White uses in his books. and not just this one, but also some of the other ones, like, uh, House of Blades, which I don't know if we'll get to. It's, you know, his debut series trilogy, it was a fun read. when you go back to an author's earlier sections of their writing, you're like, Oh, this feels a little less fleshed out.
And it is, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just like, Oh, it's the earlier stuff. Sanderson with his first published Elantris, there's a character named Galadin. Not kidding. The main character, one of the main characters is named Galadin. G A L A D I N. Right? So like, it's an early stage writing. But the thing is, you want them to have early stage writing, because then that lets them get better.
SLAVA: And I recently did this. I went back and read King's first book, Carrie, which I had never read. And you could totally see King, like it's early. Not everything is fleshed out like it is in his other books, even shorter books,
but you can definitely see King, and I definitely see why it got the acclaim that it did and why it popped the way it did and why it gave him standing as the King of Horror. It's early King, but it's believable characters. You get inside their heads. They're well rounded. They know what they want or don't want to continue on this track specifically. It's, it's fun. I recommend anybody who's into an author but haven't read the first published book. And I'm pretty much a King fan, and I haven't read his first book in the last 20, More than 20 years of reading him.
So going back to it was really, really fun. But how do you think he accomplishes this, goal oriented structure? So that's the plot, right? One of the key components of the plot. There's a goal oriented structure for all the cradle books. But how do you think he accomplishes it? Let's say using. Internal monologue, like so one's a plot device, one's a literary device to accomplish the plot goals. So I'm just going to pick one because we have a lot of it in these books, internal monologue. How do you think that accomplishes the, what Will is doing here?
Besides the obvious, besides the obvious, right? Because yes, we get insights into their thoughts, but I think Will does it so well. I want you to help me unpack that.
JONATHAN: well, I was going to, I was going to point to the obvious because I think that writing the internal monologue is the easiest way to explain the goals because then you can share their fears, their desires as they go. And I think this book is a clear example, and without having done a preliminary deep dive analysis, analyzing each word in each chapter, I think that because it's pop fiction and it's based on, what did JT say?
The Monkey King, right?
SLAVA: something like that.
JONATHAN: That's the, the, the main structure it follows. I'd say getting the internal monologue with the characters allows you to write a structure like this, honestly, more easily. Because he's omnipresent, third party omnipresent, where we get to see other characters and their perspectives and their inner monologues.
And that inner look to their inner world lets you know, even when it's quips of like, Oh, Norstrider's doing this right now, and you're like, Oh, interesting. Serial's doing this in the Abaddon realm, right? And then, Oh, Aethan's doing this, and Linden's doing this. It honestly makes his life easier to have a goal oriented framework in his plots when he gets to use the internal monologue,
SLAVA: Yeah, no, that's fair. I think there's nothing else besides the obvious. I think you're right
JONATHAN: cause Will's not trying to be philosophical. He's just writing a fun, fast paced book. Which is why, you know, I don't think that it's fair to say, well, besides the obvious, it's like, well, no, this is a fast paced pop fiction book.
SLAVA: yeah, that's fair, that's totally fair, because once you get a glimpse of these inner thoughts, you, as the reader, gain an understanding of Lyndon, for example, his determination and his vulnerability, which, again, makes him relatable, specifically to you, which I think is great, and for Yeren, I think the conflict in her the struggle with loneliness, and now in this book, the complicated feelings towards Linden, I think it reveals tension, in herself and that need for connection and the fear of losing people, all that is just beefed up by getting us inside the heads of these characters.
Cause Will could explain that, in a way, and then Yeren felt this way. But now we get actually Yeren going through the motions of the emotions,
JONATHAN: bleed and bury me. quick side quest. you on team Yeren or team Mercy still
SLAVA: oh,
JONATHAN: for romance
with the boy?
SLAVA: Yeah,
JONATHAN: Mercy, but now you're telling me that you're reading into that there might be something with Yeren. so which team are
you on?
SLAVA: well, let's give the audience a little bit of a backstory. So some of the books we cover Including this series. It's sort of like Slava reacts. Slava reads the book And then Jonathan prods him with some questions, like, what do you think is gonna happen? Because just like with the Stormlight Archives, this is my first foray into this type of pop fiction outside of watching anime.
This is me reading, and purposes, reading anime. But when you said Yaren's gonna leave, I thought that might be because Linden and Mercy might have a thing going might be might develop a friendship That's well might develop a romantic relationship.
JONATHAN: We're just friends.
SLAVA: Yeah now that mMercyis An underlady in Gon.
Maybe that won't happen because her fears are being realized that she is now in a different position and has a different goal that's set for her. So she's not necessarily going to be paling around with Linden and Aethon. And because Yeren is having feelings, the way I'm reading what's going on in the book, is having some sort of feelings for Linden that are crossing the line between sisterly, kind of, camaraderie, friendship, love, to, ooh, maybe there's something a little bit more here. My answer then is, I don't know.
JONATHAN: Wow.
That was quite the buildup. That was quite the I'm kidding. I'm just, I'm just being a, I'm being a jerk. I think there's a possibility of Yeren and Linden developing some sort of romantic relationship.
So I'm going to throw a wrench in that because Linden was just removed from Yaren's team for the, for the tournament.
Linden's on MMercy'steam, Charity comes up and goes, Hey, I'm picking these people. Linden has to live at, you know, the Akura household. Mercy's going to run the team. Linden owes us a debt. So Linden and Mercy are separated from Yeren and they have to fight.
SLAVA: Oh, goodness. I totally, uh, totally blanked on that.
JONATHAN: I figured because I was like listening to your answer and I was like, Well, let me just remind you of how next book is going to go. It's they're on separate teams and they have to, The thing is Linden can't go, Oh, I'm going to not fight you for a few reasons. Yeren would hate him. Cause she's like, don't hold back, actually fight and charity.
Wouldn't let him just coward us out. Like, Oh, you're not going to fight your friends correctly. You owe me a debt. Cause you killed one of my family members.
SLAVA: Yeah, it's true. I totally blanked. well, maybe, totally. So then I think if Linden and Mercy are the same rank and they're forced to be close to each other. could be something that develops there, but I don't know. Like I'm just making assumptions are there romantic elements to this series?
People do fall in love and do whatever that entails with that,
JONATHAN: Uh, I guess we'll have to find out
SLAVA: I guess. So, so yeah, sorry, I didn't, that was a,
JONATHAN: some side quests only leave you with a new tunic and a walking stick.
SLAVA: This is true. I lost all my gear and, I have a rotting muffin and a stick now.
JONATHAN: Yeah, but, uh, I'll, I'll bring us back here. Cause I want to build on what you mentioned with the goal oriented structure, something that I really like for the way that, uh, will structures the books. As we move forward in the episode here is he creates layerings, and the layering, I think really builds.
On the personal stakes from the internal monologues, the characters have mixed with the escalating stakes from external pieces with the dread gods, waking up the factions, warring against each other, the tension between, Hey, you killed one of my family members. And so it starts macro level where it's like, okay, there's these warring factions.
They're so far above us. Like, there's so much more powerful than us. How could we even do this? Consider dealing with them and then they get swept up into it because of the looming dread God issues, because the Monarchs, which is the top level of power level, they're like, well, we can't do anything with the dread gods.
And as we get to books, 10 and 11, we'll learn, why the Monarchs have issues with the dread gods and they haven't been able to defeat them. But for right now, we don't know. It's part of the unfolding where they're so low level compared to those characters, but they're swept up into the rising action of it.
It really gives the White the opportunity to make the characters blossom into growing up into those power levels. And so there's this urgency mixed with internal conflicts, which is some of the structures that I really like because he layers them together.
SLAVA: A big yes to all the things you just said. I think in Cradle, internal, external conflicts are essential to driving character growth, And it propels the story forward, but you also see the goals being attained, and Will White weaves these conflicts together in a way that creates, like you said, I think, a layered narrative.
There's personal stakes, Interwined with external threats and challenges the people that are fighting their own stuff up here You have the low level characters doing their own thing you have More than one plot line happening and we get snippets here, snippets there, there's places where it intersects
all this creates structures, right? And I think those structures, I believe. As I read it, I'm saying this for a fact in my own life. these structures are relatable to our personal lives.
JONATHAN: 100%. And I think that that's why the book stands out because who hasn't gone through Personal growth even forced upon them who hasn't had an external conflict that they had to, that they got swept into at work, right? Who hasn't dealt with the rising actions of urgency in the bigger world that they don't get to control.
Literally all of us have dealt with all those things. I think that that, as people read these things, they go, Oh wow, I really relate with these characters, even though the world is completely different from theirs.
SLAVA: Right, because I just read an article how people have election fatigue. we're recording this days away from the 2024 presidential election. and people are freaking out. And that's stuff that you can't control, Well, to an extent you can, you can vote and maybe you'll vote for the person that wins those struggles and the, the fear of the known that might come your way if the wrong person wins or if the right person wins, whether it be the backlash, because all, all the conversations that are happening right now in the political sphere, I think that's just an example of how people.
It is relatable.
JONATHAN: Yeah, I was thinking even bigger than that, like geopolitical, right? Like, what's Russia doing in Ukraine? You know, what's China building when they're taking over Hong Kong again because the British pulled out? Like, these are the things that we don't necessarily have control over, but they will affect taxes, tariffs, trade, price of gas, things like that.
That's just to name a few, right? Like. There's these things going on. You could call them dread gods, right? There are things that we don't get to control and we're so low level that we don't actually get to influence them. They still affect our lives in some ways. that's why I think that the books like this are really relatable because we've all dealt with external factors that are dread gods, if you will.
where we're so out of our realm even trying to consider, engaging with them is Almost useless because you have no authority to influence the issues. So anyway, I think that that's it. That's the episode.
SLAVA: I think so folks. This was a long one, but good one.
JONATHAN: Long one, but good one back in the saddle with Cradle. But before you vanish back to reality, drop us a quick review on your favorite podcast platform. It keeps our quest alive and helps other book adventurers find their way here
next time we'll continue going through Cradle and diving into the details of Underlord. And then the third episode in this series will be again with six guests total or six people, total, your two hosts and four guests, one new one. Uh, who's an old one and we're looking forward to that.
So be sure to stay tuned.
SLAVA: That's right. Take a moment and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform and share it with your book, love and Friends, and we'll see you next time on Seaquest.