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The Vets First podcast is a research-based podcast that focuses on the VA healthcare system and its patients. Instead of being just another research podcast, the Vets First podcast was created with a primary focus on the Veterans and their stories. The hosts, Levi Sowers PhD, and Brandon Rea work to bridge the gap between the state-of-the-art research being performed at Veterans Affairs and the Veterans themselves in an easy-to-understand manner. Importantly, Levi and Brandon want to assist researchers around the country to better understand the needs of Veterans. In this podcast you will hear interviews from Veterans with specific conditions and then hear from VA funded researchers who are studying those very topics as well as other highlighted services the VA provides.
The Department of Veterans Affairs does not endorse or officially sanction any entities that may be discussed in this podcast, nor any media, products or services they may provide.
Announcer: Welcome to the Vets First Podcast, a research-based conversation centered around the VA health care system, its services, and patients. From Iowa city, Iowa, here's your hosts: Dr. Levi Sowers and Brandon Rea.
Levi Sowers: Welcome back to the Vets First Podcast. As always, Brandon is here with me.
Brandon Rea: Hello, everyone.
Levi Sowers: Today, we're really lucky to have Dr. Laura Peters from the Palo Alto, VA. She is a licensed counseling psychologist at the rehab center there. Welcome to the Vets First Podcast. Dr. Peters and it's really great to have you.
Laura Peters: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.
Levi Sowers: You live in California now, but where did you come from and where did you grow up at?
Laura Peters: Oh, I'm originally from California.
Levi Sowers: Not too far.
Laura Peters: So I'm originally from California. I got my graduate degree at the University of Utah. So I lived in Utah for about five years. And then I returned back here to Palo Alto for my internship, and the rest is history.
Levi Sowers: Awesome. So when did you get involved with the VA?
Laura Peters: I came I actually got involved with the VA during my graduate school. I did practical experiences at the Salt Lake City VA working with the outpatient mental health program, and that was in the 1980s. And my interests really were focused on what I would call general psychology. So the psychology of aging and working with older adults who are adapting to both the emotional, physical elements of aging and adapting to changes. And then I came out to VA Palo Alto in 1986 for my internship and again focused on general psychology. Get a postdoctoral fellowship in general psychology. And then I actually worked at what we call the Livermore VA, which was its own VA, about 40 miles east of here for seven years in a nursing home, amongst other things. And so I think working in a nursing home, you really learn about how various people respond to adversity and how some people are able to make a life for themselves, even in a nursing home. And it may not be the worst fate, you know, ever. And other people, it's a real struggle. So really dealing again with adoption and loss of function. And then I was aware that the job came up for the blind rehab program. And I think what's interesting with blindness, it's something that most of us don't know anything about. And I was probably similar. I had had one client up to then who had been through the blind center and was totally blind, and he was my kind of the person that taught me quite a bit about adapting to vision loss and what some of his challenges were in life. And then I came to this job and really had to do on the job learning all the things that go into working with someone, assisting someone, supporting someone to create a life for themselves. After vision loss.
Levi Sowers: Yeah. So when you deal with the Veterans of the Blind Rehab center, what can you talk a little bit about, you know, one of our interviews we're going to probably pair you with actually is Tim Horn. So he had a traumatic brain injury that led to his vision loss almost instantly. And so he went from 100% sighted to no sight, no vision, almost in a fraction of a second when he got shot in the head. And so, you know, huh, What is that like for a person? I'm sure it is totally dependent on the human being, but, you know, that's something I've seen the resiliency of these people, like Brandon was saying earlier, that we've interviewed so far, just wild. And I'm just curious to know, like, is it the stages of grief that everyone talks about or how does that work? Because you've been working with blended veterans for a long time.
Laura Peters: Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think as you pointed out, there's so much individual differences between how people become visually impaired. And there's a big difference, like you were saying, between a traumatic vision loss where whether through an injury or some of our veterans have eye diseases where they may wake up blind, you know, it's a very sudden shift in their vision. And so that's very traumatic. Other people, most of our veterans that we work with are dealing with age related vision loss. And many times that vision loss is progressive. So you can kind of imagine the contrast between losing sight and saying, okay, this is what I have to deal with, this is where I'm at versus somebody who's still has vision. But tomorrow their vision could be worse. So they're kind of on a slippery slope and they're having to live with the ambiguity of learning how to cope with whatever their current vision level is or vision loss is. And then never knowing what the future is going to bring for them. And they may lose, you know, anticipate losing more vision, but they don't know when that's going to happen or if that's going to happen. So either way, it can be very stressful and kind of an ongoing process, I would say. And the VA considers vision loss a catastrophic disability, which just means that it affects every aspect of your life. We are actually working with people who are, you know, which range from, you know, having quite a bit of vision all the way to total vision loss. And so over these more recent years, we work with people who have what we call low vision or limited vision, or maybe they've even had a stroke and a brain injury where they have 2020 vision in one part of their visual field and limited or no vision in another part of their visual field. So the whole concept of vision loss has become much more complicated. And I think a lot of people in the public think it's an either or thing you either see or you don't see. And so one of the struggles that our veterans have is if they do have partial vision, how do they explain to themselves, how do they explain to the world, their families, what they can do with their vision, what they can't do? It can create a very confusing picture. And so one of the things I ask the veterans is, did you ever have any contact with anybody in your life who was visually impaired before you lost your vision? What was your experience? And sometimes we talk a lot about stereotypes, like maybe their only concept of someone's vision loss is Stevie Wonder or Mr. Magoo, who is like a bumbling, fumbling, you know, person and we always talk about is- there's a lot of stereotypes out there. You might get a lot of insensitive questions like, “You don't look blind to me” or, “Well, if you're blind, how come you can do that?” And you have to for yourself, decide, how am I going to respond? Am I going to, you know, do I have a pat answer to it? You know, do I just blow them off? Do I answer? You know, it's really their- the person's choice, how they want to respond. So I think trying to get them to have empathy for the world, that the world really doesn't understand, you know, vision, loss matching. So in some ways, each person with vision loss is an educator and an ambassador. Not that they always have to be the explainer of everything, but sometimes just by the living their life, the people living their lives, being out in the world, being in public, being in sports, doing whatever they want to do, they are educating people and changing hearts and minds about what it is to live with vision loss and that there is life after vision loss.
Levi Sowers: That's really interesting. You know, you talked about insensitive questions, right? And that's been something I've been very cognitive of doing these interviews. I've probably asked some insensitive questions because I'm ignorant towards them. And I don't think that my questions obviously, they don't come from a place of being mean but I'm trying to learn, right? And I think inherently we’ll ask insensitive questions. What is a good way for a person like me or Brandon that has vision to approach this?
Laura Peters: I think exactly what you just did. I mean, I think most of us, you know, working with you would know you're both coming from a good place. And so that carries a lot of weight. So even if you ask a question that might be more personal or whatever, they know you're coming from a good place, whereas let's say they're on the bus and they have a large print watch, and another bus rider says, Well, you don't look blind. Why are you looking at that watch? You know what I'm saying? So that person, they don't even know them. They're just kind of butting in. But I think just being open about it and the main thing that we- I think the main theme of rehabilitation is self advocacy, encouraging, you know, veterans to speak up about their needs, what they want, if they have a reaction to something. And also when we work with, you know, families and other people like yourselves, is just opening that dialog and saying, hey, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. If you don't want to answer, that's fine. If you have a concern about a question, please let me know. Just give me feedback and you just open that dialog up and just like we would say to a veteran, you want to let others know how they can either help you or not help you. And we always tell families and other sighted people don't just go up and start helping somebody or doing something to somebody. Always let them know, know, you know, I notice you're having some trouble with that. Do you need any help or understanding over here? If you need anything, let me know. But never jump in and kind of start doing for somebody without their permission or, you know, acknowledgement. Does that make sense to you?
Levi Sowers: So and I know if that were me, I'd probably have trouble sharing that. I'm unable to do something that I was able to do before. Do you find that? I think the answer is obviously yes, that it's hard. It's a big hurdle to overcome. But do you think- what are some methods or strategies that you use in order to kind of lead the way to get to that point? I'm imagining just speaking that let's say I have lost my sight. I'm frustrated. How do you kind of like steer the ship, if you will, getting there?
Laura Peters: Excellent question. What I was going to say is I think the beauty of for me of working in a residential program is that all the veterans who are coming here, there's a group of veterans, they're all visually impaired to some degree, even though they have individual types of vision loss and they're all veterans or someone who has participated in military service. So they have common bonds with each other. One of the best things we do is we have our weekly support group. We talk about different topics related to insensitive questions, anger, self advocacy, patients. You know, one of the hardest things with vision loss is everything takes more time, everything is harder. So trying to be patient with yourself and others, we talk about things like don't assume everybody understands where you're coming from or knows what you need from. No one is a mind reader. And so sometimes just the veterans themselves having those discussions and sharing because everyone who comes here is at a different point, like you were saying, of their kind of adjustment or acceptance of where they're at in their life. And some are farther along, some are new to the situation and they really talk to each other. And I think hearing it from another veteran, they understand, you know, we'll definitely have veterans say things like, you know, I never wanted to ask for help, but I realize that was one of the most important things I could do in this situation is know when I need to ask for help and not just keep hitting my head against a wall or and that really carries a lot of weight for another veteran who's also starting to learn how to cope with their vision loss. And one of the things I would say is just like I didn't know that much about vision loss before I came to work here. People who have vision loss don't always know what they don't know, what they don't know. They don't know what to expect. And so coming here and interacting with other veterans who are farther along or at different points, they learn from each other. And of course, the blind rehab staff, we know there's life after sight loss, but someone who's new to sight loss may feel there's no hope, there's no future. All my dreams and hopes are gone. And so one of our main goals, so a lot of our goals, you know, we want to teach skills and we want to teach methods that will help a person feel more competent and able to manage their life. But one of our main goals is to instill hope into them through the other veterans and through our own comments to people. You know, it's kind of rough when you first get here. Things will get better. You know, once you learn more about what's possible for you, that may really open some of your mind up to what your future might be. Just kind of gently instilling these ideas. And because we want them to know that they're there, there is hope for them and there's ways they can have a quality life which they may not know about yet. And we don't want them to give up.
Levi Sowers: You know, I think you touch on something that's really interesting is that you have the physical loss of vision right? But there's also a loss of the mental aspects of that vision. Right? That sensory input is gone. I mean, sensory input can come from a lot of different things, feelings, emotions, then another day. And so how important is the mental aspects to really build up the mental? You talked about hope a little bit. Can you expand on that a little bit? Is it the mental aspect of acceptance just as important as the physical ability to navigate rooms, etc.?
Laura Peters: Good question. I think they're both, you know, inextricably linked together because what we find is when a veteran comes into this residential setting and they start to so they meet with a variety of blind rehabilitation staff who expose them, you know, kind of assess where are you having problems, what's what's blocking you from being able to do different things. And then they'll respond with, oh, here are some ideas, you know, not only skills but different prosthetic devices that may help you achieve your goal or be able to do the things you want to do. And this is in many different areas of life. You know, mobility is being able to walk from point A to point B. Visual skills might be using your remaining vision or using tools that provide access through text to speech types of items. We may have. We have a whole technology type of training that we can offer people. We have hand skills so that because of the lack of use, you know, as much usable vision, people learn how to tune in more to their hands and their hand strength and problem solving and doing things tactfully where maybe they have some vision, but maybe they don't. Maybe it's a strain to use their vision and they can actually realize it's easier just to do it, you know, with my sense of touch than having to pull out my magnifier or whatever. And finally, we have activities of daily living, which would be, you know, how do you manage your bank account, How do you communicate, How do you use your iPhone differently, maybe for either detecting color? If you can't see color, how do you organize yourself with your clothes, your papers, your, you know, all these things we take for granted with vision and record things. If you can't see writing and all of those things are covered. And I think just after about two weeks in the program, those hands on concrete things are what's linked to hope, because someone instead of someone saying, I can't, they're starting to say to themselves, Well, maybe I can. And then by the end of their program, they may actually say, Well, now I know I can, you know, walk from my house to the store and be safe and confident doing it, not afraid I'm going to fall on my face and look like an idiot, that kind of thing.
Levi Sowers: Or something you're highlighting, too. And I'm learning more as we kind of move through these interviews is how important connectivity and community amongst the blind veteran population is. And I'm pretty much, I think, veterans as a whole, knowing that these resources are available and knowing that you're not alone and the experiences that you're having seems to be a big predominant thing. And we know through talking with this coordinator that that's where veterans can reach out to. Are there Dr. Laura's elsewhere other than Palo Alto?
Laura Peters: Well, I'm your one and only, but no, there definitely are more than me. So as you probably all know, we have 13 blind rehabilitation centers, residential centers, and every center has psychological services because of the importance of the psychological adjustment, because as you can imagine, if someone is still extremely angry about their vision loss or maybe they're hoping I mean, we've definitely had veterans who've said, my vision is going to there's going to be a miracle. You know, God's going to give me a miracle and I'm going to get my vision back. And we never or someone will say, you know, they're going to put a computer chip in my eye and I'm going to get my vision back through science. And maybe someday that will happen. But we don't dissuade people. We don't fight them on that. We just say, you know, that may happen, but where you're at right now, some of the things we're talking to you about may be helpful. Would you be willing to consider learning these things now? And if in the future you don't need them, you know, you haven't lost anything. But these strategies might help you at least get through the present. But I think sometimes those kinds of attitudes, unfortunately, you know, will prevent someone from being more open and accepting. But where we try to leave people, we try to leave people positive and happy and in the sense of we're not going to get into an adversarial thing like we know what's best for you. You better, Julie, say that does not work well with veterans or with anybody. And I think what we want to say is we want to expose you to all we have to offer. We're encouraging people to try what we have. If they decide they're going to hang their white cane up in the closet when they go home and not use it, that's their choice. That's their, you know, they're free to choose what they want to do. And we always want to welcome them, to consider, you know, more blind rehab in the future. If maybe they don't want to use a white cane right now, but maybe two years from now, their vision changes and they're like, hey, you know, that might be really helpful. The door is always open and I think you really hit the nail on the head about community. I feel like vision loss is a low incidence disability. It's not always easy for someone to find others in the community. And so having people like the voice coordinators and the other blind rehab outpatient specialists and programs like that to help bring people together, those are veterans. Of course, there's national organizations that are not both like the VA but also non military veteran related organizations for people with vision loss that are out there. And some of our veterans have gone to community programs where they've had a support group or services, especially in some of the more, you know, rural areas that are out there. But I also want to do a shout out for all psychologists and social workers and mental health providers across the VA because there isn't always a specialist that knows about vision, loss, mental health and vision loss. But I think as you both can understand, you know, just dealing with any kind of disability and changes with your health, there are some similar themes and I think there's many good people out there. So I often will refer someone back to mental health because we get people from a large national catchment area. They could be from Hawaii, they could be from Tennessee. I can't do you know, I can only see them while they're here in the program for six weeks or something. And if they do have additional needs, that would be helpful for them. I always try to make that warm handoff to wherever they came from. What are the services there? How can we link them back so they can continue adjusting to their new situation?
Levi Sowers: Do you ever get pushback from veterans because you can see it and they you know, some of them can't, obviously. So do you ever- is there ever- and what is it like to have full vision and offer rehabilitation to those that don't.
Laura Peters: Yeah. Definitely you know some veterans feel and you know if one of our staff members who has- in addition, has a vision loss themselves that's an immediate credibility you know bridge to because that person has that lived experience and I feel like as a psychologist I can never know for sure what it's like to be another person. And so I just- I'm very honest about it. Like, I can't know exactly what it's like to have vision loss or or to be you. I've had a lot of experience with people who are coping with vision loss. And, you know, I'm willing to get into it with you to have a discussion about it and if there's any ways I can be helpful. So what's interesting with being a psychologist in a more medically focused program is nobody comes here to see a psychologist, right? Yeah, they're here for their vision loss. And so sometimes they're kind of surprised, like, oh, I have to see a shrink or I have to see a head doctor. Like, why am I seeing you? It's my eyes, not my head. And so I'm pretty used to over the years, you know, explaining and that's my initial thing is, you know, I am part of- embedded into the team here. We have recreation therapy, we have social work, we have nursing, we have blind rehab. We're all here as a team because it's when you can look at someone from a 360 perspective from all different aspects. We want to treat you as a whole person and we want to look at everything about you that can either contribute to your success getting through this program or what are some of the barriers that might get in your way. So, for example, many veterans who have experienced post-traumatic stress disorder, perhaps from the military, could be from other situations going through a disability. Aging and vision loss can really exacerbate their PTSD symptoms because, for example, all the ways that the person may have learned to cope with PTSD, they're not able to do anymore. Maybe they can't jump in their car and drive to the beach. They can't read something that they want to read. They can easily go visit friends. They may not be able to use their phone. So there's all these factors that make them all the coping skills they used to have. Maybe they can't do those anymore. And then secondly, just the fear factor. When you're somebody who's hyper vigilant, when you're used to being able to scan your environment and because of vision loss, you're not able to do that anymore. And I would say 90% of our veterans, because of the age group that they're in, are also hearing impaired. So they're often dealing with a dual sensory impairment, which makes it more difficult to know what's going out there. And that fear factor rises because they can't use their vision to figure out what's going on. And so just explaining that to them and normalizing that and saying, you know, maybe there's other ways things you can tune in to or, you know, ground yourself when you're feeling more stressed and talking more about, you know, hearing now coping skills. So that's just an example where just their history, if they've had a history of anxiety, a history of depression, it may be that the vision loss worsens those symptoms. And that's why psychology is here, not only to support you as you go through the program, but also to help you navigate the program. Coming into an institutional setting can be very challenging for people who are free, you know, like people who are used to getting up when they want eating, when they want the food they want, you know, making their own decisions. And all of a sudden you're being told, you know, and we try to- that's one of the things that Tim Hornick does as the admissions coordinator is does a lot of education before someone even comes in here. What to expect, Because we know with people who have, you know, any kind of mental health disorder or just vision loss, any of us, if we know what to expect and we have more information up front than when we come in, it's not so strange and it's we kind of know what's going to happen and then hopefully less fear, less anxiety, and then, as you know, when you're afraid and anxious, it's hard to learn. Yeah. So we're really trying to set up optimal conditions for them to benefit from all the training in the program.
Levi Sowers: Yeah, this whole, this whole person approach I think is really taking off across multiple disciplines. Pain, for example, very important. You know, it's not just the pain, it's also the person and sort of the mental health behind the person and etc. and so on. And so it's really interesting that these teams have been created. I think the VA has actually done a very good job of that, especially with blind rehab.
Levi Sowers: They have these full whole team approaches that have been very successful for a lot of people. Loretta, who we talked to, a veteran yesterday, you know, she was like, the first thing I'll say is go to blind rehab at the VA, go to blind rehab for the VA. She was just like, it changed my life. I can do anything I want now and it's pretty cool. So, you know, and she you know, one thing that has been a common pattern with all these veterans, Brandon, you can speak to this, too, is that they they go through this whole like, you know, up down sort of wavelike pattern of of progression or a journey where they're like, I gave up. But then one day I decided to not to and, you know, rehab, learning that they could do certain things really good and, you know, that was pretty neat to see and to hear from these three different veterans now that we've interviewed that have had vision loss. And so have you participated in any research studies?
Laura Peters: I actually don't. I mean, if we have anything going on here at the Blind Center, we did have a research psychologist for many, many years, Dr. Greg Goodrich, and he did a lot of- he was more of a perceptual psychologist, like more cognitive perceptual. So he did a lot of research with low vision and different- and he's one of the- people that spearheaded the understanding that veterans who were exposed to IED blasts, that it affected vision, that it affected the way the eyes you know, when the visual system is shaken up. So the eyes don't work well together. And that might have been an explanation for some of the headaches and some of the inability, you know, deficits that veterans experience post blast. And because when so he, you know, many times over might have perfect vision, but their vision isn't working well for them. And so he was one of the forerunners with that and unfortunately he retired. And so we haven't had research since then in the last few years, but I'm sure they will try to do it in the future. I guess for me, I really value research. I just find that it's challenging to have the time. I guess my first love and my heart always goes out first to the veterans. So if there's a patient need, that's my first calling.
Levi Sowers: Yeah!
Laura Peters: And with research, you do have to, you know, as I'm speaking with you, the choir here, you have to have time and, you know, some good chunks of time to really focus. And so I've chosen to pretty much dedicate my life to the clinical side versus the research side, even though I realize both are possible. But I haven't figured that out yet.
Levi Sowers: Yeah, you do have to work a lot.
Brandon Rea: I mean, just make up, just make a podcast and then you can communicate between the two of them!
[laughter]
Laura Peters: There you go or don't have any weekends! You know, I was just going to touch on what you said first about the VA blind rehab. First of all, I was just going to say I feel I think the reason I've remained in wine rehab for 27 years is because I just am so in awe of, like you were saying, what the VA has to offer with blind rehab. Just just the ability to fund a whole team, including a psychologist, a recreation therapist, a social worker, a nursing staff, a doctor, a medical doctor, and all the rehab staff to provide this care, and then all the outpatient services as well. I mean, you will not find that, you know, in any state or anywhere else in the country. So I feel very proud of the services that we provide. And then the other point that you made, I have been the blessed and lucky witness to see so many veterans say exactly what you've said after six weeks of blind rehabilitation, saying, I feel like I've found myself again, I'm back to the person I was. I'm a new person. There is life. After I left, just all those statements that just giving people those tools, how much it's positively impacted in their lives and allowed them to get back into their communities and society. And I do think those community connections are so important. And I'm glad you're with your podcast trying to make those connections for- you know, help people make those connections because it's not always easy to find your community, you know, and you can feel very isolated and alone.
Levi Sowers: Absolutely. Yeah, we've received some decent feedback from the podcast and people finding other stories helpful. Yeah. So I'm happy if it helps anybody. Yeah, one person is enough for me.
Brandon Rea: I'm learning that-
Levi Sowers: and we get to talk to cool people like you.
Brandon Rea: That's true!
Laura Peters: Well thank you!
Brandon Rea: I'm learning the path forward is never straight, but there is a path forward and it's definitely making me think about, like, life’s difficulties and giving perspective, if you will.
Levi Sowers: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, I think we're going to wrap up here in a minute. We said 25 minutes and we're hitting that real close.
Laura Peters: Okay!
Levi Sowers: There's a few questions I ask everybody towards the end. They're more fun. I think. So. Doctor Laura, what do you like to do for fun?
Laura Peters: So living in California, I love being outdoors. So because a lot of my life is spent meeting with people indoors, I always try to take a walk outside as much as I can. I like to go on hikes. I like to. I find nature very renewing for me and kind of a good counter part. And on the other side, I love to bake and cook. So I've been known to bring baked goods into the office and I love just showing my love for others and care for others by making something for them.
Brandon Rea: And I bet the coworkers notice when you take a vacation!
[laughter]
Laura Peters: It’s better for me to give it to others then, you know, eat it all myself!
Levi Sowers: So yeah. So as an Iowan, I'm going to California this summer for vacation. Yeah. Where does a person from California go on vacation?
Laura Peters: Oh, my goodness. You know, I would just say in the last couple of years, obviously with the pandemic, I probably spent more time, you know, in the local area. But I would say Yosemite is just on inspiring place to go to. I don't know if you've ever been there before.
Levi Sowers: Oh, I've been there once. And it's pretty amazing. We're going to- my daughter is turning…it's her fourth grade summer or of the fifth and she gets into all the national parks for free. So we're like, let's do a national park tour. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to have some funds to do that.
Laura Peters: Of course, Sequoia, you know, just seeing the huge- I mean, the huge redwood trees are very, you know, to think how old they are and just the size of them compared to us is so inspiring. And we've had a lot of fires and fortunately, a lot of the trees, some trees have died, but a lot of trees, you know, they're they're built to survive fire. And that's very inspiring as well.
Levi Sowers: Yeah, it's pretty neat. They used a component from their bark or part of their bark in the early space shuttle programs because they're fire retardant. They learn pretty cool stuff.
Laura Peters: Well, on the adult side, wine tasting is always nice.
Levi Sowers: We're going to Napa Valley for two days. Not sure, it's in my budget, but we're going to try it.
[laughter]
Levi Sowers: Well, Dr. Laura, I'm really pumped you came on today. You've been a great interview and it's awesome to have- to see someone who's invested in what they do at the VA come on and talk to us about it. So I really appreciate that. Thanks for the help.
Laura Peters: You are so welcome. And I would just say if any of your listeners or if you ever have any fall questions, I'm more than happy to try to answer or connect people with whoever might be able to answer any concerns or questions about sight loss or rehab or anything.
Brandon Rea: Fantastic.
Laura Peters: Well, you enjoy your visit and thank you so much. I just appreciate you both, you know, asking me to be here and it's been a real honor and a very interesting experience. So thank you so much!
Levi Sowers: Thank you for saying yes.
Brandon Rea: Yeah. So thank you, Dr. Laura.
Announcer: This concludes today's Vets First Podcast. For questions or comments relating to the program, please direct email correspondence to vetsfirstpodcast@gmail.com. Thanks for listening!