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Chris Bruno and Tracy Johnson host conversations around the art and business of Storywork Coaching. This podcast is powered by ReStory Counseling.
Chris Bruno
I'm Chris Bruno and welcome to the Restory Podcast. Story work is the heartbeat of Restory. It's the craft of helping someone find their way back to the truth of their own story. The wounds, the wonder, all of it. So they can live from it instead of around it. If you're doing this work yourself, training to do it with others, or sensing you're called to it in some way, you are in the right place. Today, my colleague Tracy Johnson and I are sitting down with our friend Jeremy Williamson.
He is a Restory Story Work coach with over 25 years of experience working with men on story, trauma, and masculine identity. Jeremy shares his own path into this work and why community and shared supervision aren't optional extras. They're what keeps this work ethical and keeps us human while we do it. So without much further ado, let's jump into the conversation with Jeremy. Well, Jeremy, welcome to the Restory Podcast. It is so good to have you. Thanks for being with us today.
Jeremy Williamson
Hey, thank you, Chris. It's so good to be here.
Chris Bruno
Why don't you tell us a little bit about you so that people listening have a sense of who you are, where you are, what you do, and then we'll jump into our really important conversation today about formal approaching. So
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah, as you heard, my name is Jeremy and I live in southwestern Missouri with my wife. We've got three kids in the house. Actually two in the house, one in college. I am a storywork coach at Restory Counseling and I get to do a lot of really fulfilling work with men, especially I work with couples. I work with people who are in ministry in different ways. And I've been on the team for a while. Chris, I don't remember how long have I been on the team. It's been what
And maybe
Chris Bruno
Seven years? It's like seven years, I think.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. Amazing. Such
Chris Bruno
Okay.
Jeremy Williamson
a good such a good season. Yeah, Tracy.
Tracy Johnson
I was just gonna say I remember when COVID started because you and I actually did I don't know if we did a podcast or we did something for restory because we'd run a men's intensive. Yeah, that's right. And then we went home and COVID hit. So you you're my measure for when COVID started.
Jeremy Williamson
And and the thing about it started I love that. You're welcome, I guess. I don't know how I should feel about that, but here I am. Like I had done years, decades of pastoral spiritual sort of counseling. Now I'm like learning about story work and I'm just getting started in this realm during COVID. And so I have all of the need and and I worked specifically with pastors because that felt like a good entry point for me.
So these pastors who are desperate and having this hard time and they have no idea that they are the first clients I've ever had. And it is in the realm of COVID. I'm just I'm really glad that I had you guys.
Tracy Johnson
sure we filled you up really quickly also because like the need was so acute it was so acute and pastors pastors were cratering
Chris Bruno
Yeah. well everything was cratering, but especially, you know, organizations like churches that were pretty much reliant on the gathering of people. And when that was no longer possible, identity and story and all that started to come to the surface. So I am so glad, Jeremy, that twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, you were on the team and ready to go. So
Jeremy Williamson
And and I am so glad I had you.
Chris Bruno
I have to say
Jeremy Williamson
That was a great way to start. well
Tracy Johnson
It actually probably is a really good way to start. It's probably a really good way
Jeremy Williamson
I mean just jump in, but jump in not alone. That's that was good for me.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Yeah. So today we wanted to talk to you just literally about that. Because you joined the team, you just said, you know, not being alone and having each other and all that. One of the things that is so easy in the realm of, you know, the helping professions in social work and counseling and therapy and coaching is that a lot of people set up their own practice, kind of get things running, they find their clients, they kind of do their own thing. And maybe there's some level of
affiliations that they have out there with others and such. But I find so many people end up being kind of in their own echo chamber, in their own silo and alone. And so today we wanted to talk about like why does that happen? What are people thinking? And then maybe what are the benefits that you have found personally of being part of an actual group, an actual team. So tell us a little bit. I mean, and the fact is like right now on the podcast,
I am in Colorado, Tracy is in Arizona, and Jeremy is in Missouri. And so we're not actually physically together on the team, but we are together on the team. And so yeah, tell us a little bit about what that was like for you to jump in and be a part of something.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. I mean you mentioned it's what I knew. But I think I also want to say, like, that is all I knew in this realm of work, but it was new for me in every other arena of my life. I and some of this comes down to what's true just in my own story, but I have been a lone ranger out doing things on my own. I know what that feels like. And so to come in and to
Like to begin working with you, it was true. It felt really protective. It felt really good. I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting with a client and like Tracy's voice is whispering in my ear, or your voice, Chris, is in my ear. Like I can hear you talking to the client and I just channel you through my voice. And it's awesome. and so in that way, like it was fantastic to know not only that I would have supervision, like somebody that I could sit with and work through client cases and
you know, have somebody who could see things perhaps that I wasn't seeing and help me in my continued development. But there was something else about the camaraderie and the witness, the the presence that I felt from people who believed in me. So you felt like supervisors, but you also have always felt like people who were in my corner and you felt like friends. And that I'm just gonna be honest, that was both good and triggering in some ways.
And I I think that might be worth talking about. I think there's another reason why some people go it alone. And it it it may have to do with shame and fear. And I definitely felt all of that along the way. Okay.
Tracy Johnson
Hmm. I i you know, I think something that I wonder about Jeremy, it's like it's true for me, it's true for you. And Chris, it'd be interesting. Like I I wonder what you would say about this. But like for Jeremy and I both, we ended up in this work because we did the work. Like we ended up where we are now because we did our own story work. And that was both transformative and healing, but unlocked something inside of us of what we felt like God's call was.
And I think it's worth talking about because I think it's pretty common that people who end up doing story work, unlike therapists who may you know, became a therapist because they were interested in psychology or not always because of something that they are cognitively or explicitly aware of. Right. But people who do story work, you don't look at that and go, that's interesting. I think I'll do that. It emerges often
from your own work. So I wonder, Jeremy, for you, what would you say like about the intersection of that, like doing your own work, having people who care about you, who know something of that work, come alongside you and then where that intersects with like sitting with clients, because I think that's a little bit of maybe even what you're touching on when you mention the shame.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, and I can speak to how that's true for me specifically, because it not everybody's gonna feel the same thing that I did, but doing my own work meant facing why it was important for me to be a lone ranger specifically. Like why was that safe for me? And I'm happy to share that it was safe for me because I knew that I wouldn't abandon me and I knew that I could trust me.
And I wasn't sure that was true about everybody else. But as I'm doing my work and facing that fear and that shame and doing that good work in my story, then for me, part of the next step was to come alongside people in a context like this who know me well. And for me to trust that you see me and you care about me and you're not gonna leave and you're as safe as a person could be.
And that I also have the ability to be in the complexity of this kind of relationship where we have a professional and working relationship and you're aware of my story, that is a really good place for me to continue to do work inside myself. And I think what I believe it actually translates into is genuine work, integrital work with my clients, because I'm able to then come in as an integrated person.
Who is aware of what's happening in myself, I have people with me. And that makes a huge difference in the way that I'm able to sit with the people that I do story work with.
Chris Bruno
As you were talking, Jeremy, just then, I had this like vision of stepping into a session with a client. And the client is experiencing you in a one-on-one scenario, but you have kind of this support network that is standing behind you, both personally knowing you and your story, and then also professionally holding that space so that there is a
You are kind of representative, the tip of the spear almost of like this whole thing standing behind you. The client has no idea all of what has gone on in the background to make sure that good integrated support is happening in that one on one session and all that is inside of you as you step into that session.
Jeremy Williamson
Love that that's true.
Tracy Johnson
It's like your story work cloud of witnesses.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah.
Tracy Johnson
I mean, as you were describing it, Chris, that's what I was thinking about. Yeah. And as you're talking, Chris, you know, when things are going well with a client, that's just really nice to know, right? That I have this sort of cloud of witnesses that are kind of cheering me on and supporting me. And that's not when we need the support, right? We need that support. I mean, it's good to have it. It's wonderful. And it's when things aren't going well. I think that the value of having community.
becomes more palpable. But as that becomes more palpable, it's inevitable that back to what Jeremy said, like shame has risen also.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah.
Tracy Johnson
So I think it would be good for us to talk a little bit about, you know, what has it been like, Jeremy, for you to know that you can have a hard session, you can have something that goes poorly with a client, and then you have community. What has that been like?
Jeremy Williamson
Terrifying at first. And that's that is because partly because it's part of my story. I grew to believe that if I show up with too many mistakes or too many imperfections, I will be left behind. And so I spent years waiting to be disinvited from the team. And yeah.
It's not because I ever experienced anything in your faces that communicated that to me. That was part of some of the good work that I needed to continue to do was to to be willing to show up. So it at first it was really scary. And I've had some situations where, especially early on, like I wanted to withhold. I was afraid to share, like this is difficult because I need to be strong enough. I'm supposed to be. And I can imagine people who who are watching this that are licensed and they are
Doing good work and maybe you have a great reputation. And there is this sense that you might have as well that you're supposed to have it all together. I had to learn that there is joy in the consultation. And I heard both of you, I have heard both of you show up the exact same way saying, I just had a hard client and I don't know what to do. I mean, Tracy, it was like last week, or no, this week that I you told me about a situation that you were in.
You didn't share any details with me, but you were like, Yeah, I had a situation last week. I didn't know what to do and I had to call somebody. So I've learned over time that it's safe and that actually it is the best resource I have. I can come into consult with the team of story work practitioners that are in the cohort that I'm a part of. And it doesn't matter if they're in their first year of doing story work or if they're one of the seasoned folks, the brilliance that is in that room.
And that shirt space is so valuable. I love it.
Tracy Johnson
Would you talk about that a little bit, Jeremy, for people who maybe like haven't experienced what do we mean when you say consult? Like what is that room? Who's in that what's happening in that room for people who maybe don't know?
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah. So the consult that I'm talking about is a gathering of story work coaches. In my case, it's led by Tracy. And we come together, we check in with one another. The last time we met, to be quite honest, we spent twenty minutes just sitting and tending to one of our teammates who was carrying some really heavy stuff. And that was the most important thing that we could do with those twenty minutes. And then we spent the rest of our time sitting with
Some client situations that somebody like brought, hey, here's where I'm at. Here's what's kind of happening in this scenario. What do you see? What am I missing? And the beautiful thing about that space is as we've gotten to know each other, we can offer, hey, here's what I'm seeing and what do think about this? But we can also say things like, Tracy, I'm aware that this person's story might be impacting you because I know you. It might be impacting you in this particular way. Like, how are you?
Holding this story. And that so the wisdom and and the the client advice is awesome, but to get to sit with a group of people who have come to know me and who can be curious about how I am in sitting with this particular client or situation is awesome. So that's it. It's pretty organic and it invites the wisdom and the presence of everybody in the room.
Chris Bruno
It sounds so rich to be in a space like that. When we think about doing this work alongside of other people, and Jeremy, you just named several different pieces of what that is. Off the top of my head, right now, there are four things that are kind of coming to my mind. There might be three, there might be seven. I don't know. So let's just kind of talk through it. But there are kind of four things that come to my mind when we as story work practitioners are coming to this space and we have some kind of commitment to not be alone. Okay.
And what that greater Tracy, your words earlier, the cloud of witnesses, like that sense of like what that consult space, that group can hold. And so those four things that are on my mind are these. See what you guys think. So first, it is a group of other people that is gonna hold a story work ethic and make sure that as we collectively are hearing what is happening, that all of us are committed to staying within some ethical guardrails.
Of what is story work, what is not story work, what are we doing with people, what are we not doing with people? And just making sure that we're holding kind of those guidelines. The second is like skill and practice. So that's what you were just saying of like, I don't know what to do. I don't know in the practice of story work. There's I've come to a place where I'm not sure what the next best step is. And so there's some skill building that can happen and there's some
ways of thinking or maybe there's some acknowledgement of like the difference of well, we're experiencing envy, not jealousy. And let's riff a little bit around what the difference is there and have some categorical teaching around what those things are. Or some here's a way that I might ask that question kind of practice skill things. You've touched a couple of things also. The third thing then is you as a human who has your own story.
And so as you spend time with people in these spaces, you just said, like Tracy, I'm hearing that this client, this situation, your stuckness or your triggered or whatever may be coming out of your own story and not what's happening in the client's story. Like, are you aware of that? And somebody just to be kind of that mirror and that reflector back to you. And then the final is that the fourth thing is just being with other humans. This is such an isolating job.
Right. If you come to the restory offices most of the time it feels like a ghost town because everyone is in their own room with the door closed and a do not disturb on the handle. And then there's only the passing period of between clients or coming and going for lunch. And so it feels very isolating to be in your own room, in your own Zoom space, in your own physical room, whatever it is.
And just to be with other people who are like minded and pulling in the same direction and wondering the same things and hoping for the same things for their clients, like there is so much value in being with other people. So those are like as we're talking, those four things categories kind of bubbled up. Do you guys have other categories or what do you think about those?
Jeremy Williamson
I think I want to start, Chris, by saying how for me particularly, how redemptive the last two things that you said are. Because I I have a script that I have a script about consumption and dehumanizing that can happen when I become a commodity that's available to be consumed. And so there's something about being a human who has dignity and value and people who know my story. I'm a part of a community. It means that I never
It makes it harder, I should say, for me to slip into this just endless wave of people who want to consume me. I get to hold on to my humanity and my dignity in much greater ways when I'm together with a team than if I was by myself. So that means a lot to me for sure. Yeah.
Tracy Johnson
As you were talking, Chris, I had two thoughts. One, I get the benefit of being in the office sometimes about every four to six weeks and then on my own the rest of the time. And so I know that dynamic that you just talked about. I've been the office and not seen anyone else. I like I see clients, right? But I sometimes I'm there and I I have team members that are in the office and I don't see them and we're there at the same time.
So that's very real. I imagine that for a lot of people listening to us, though, they might not even have that office space. They're not even going somewhere where there's the possibility. Or even just one of the reasons I come to the office is when I'm doing intensives and I don't want to be alone. And so even though I might not see anybody else, I'm aware I'm here in this office and there are other people behind these doors. And there's both safety and comfort and goodness in that.
But back to, you know, the rest of the time you know, sitting in my office by myself and day after day after day. And the isolation in that, you know, is real. And on my team is something we talk about pretty frequently because the bulk of those that are on the storywork team that I give leadership to are like Jeremy. They're all over the country. So that shared space.
Our office space together is each of our little, my dad used to call them our Hollywood squares. But you know, it's the say it's the same. Like I know Jeremy's office. I've been in that office. I know that he just moved that office around because the chair used to be facing a little bit different direction. And you know, so we build that over time, kind of that familiarity, which has been sweet. The other thing though that I was thinking is that the realm of story work is kind of the wild west.
It's kind of the Wild West. It doesn't until recently, and because we built them, there are no ethics. There is not a code of ethics for story work that's held by some larger licensing entity out there in the world. And I think that that is probably one of the most important things that happens when we gather together. And for me, it is actually the intersection of the ethics.
intersect with skill, practice, and your story. Like those things are all coming together. And that is the conversation. And it's why the community is necessary because you can't have that conversation on your own in your office by yourself. Right. You are a, you know, a party of one in your mind. And it does not give you the support that you need.
And as I say it's the Wild West, it's like we're out there doing something that is brand new that really, you know, doesn't have decades of guardrails that have been built in by a licensing agency. And so that doesn't relieve us of the responsibility to do that work well.
Chris Bruno
Right. And I would say like I am in some ways really grateful that we have that freedom and I love that you just said and we have the responsibility to still hold our own guardrails and ethics and find our own professional way forward. So
Tracy Johnson
I and to know like what is story work and what is not story work, what is therapy, what is outside the guardrails of this work? And we've worked really hard to know what that is and have it quantified and qualified. Yeah. Yeah. And then be able to bring that in that space of community.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Yep. Jeremy, I'm wondering what you would say to a store work coach or somebody considering this who may be in this place of, I am alone. Right. And right now they may not have any avenues for finding those kinds of places that you have found. What would be some things that you would say to that person to kind of offer, like, hey, you might want to consider these things?
Jeremy Williamson
I think I would say first approach yourself and with some wonder and curiosity about like where you are and why you're alone and what like what that has cost you and what it has meant. And sit with that. And if you have your own therapist or story work coach, maybe sit with them in that. Maybe it is just like a product of the steps that you've taken and the fact that there are no other story work coaches in your geographical area that you know, or maybe none that you like.
And you haven't like you just haven't made the connections. But I think it's worth a pause and some curiosity. And then, you know, I would say find it virtually if you have to. There's more than just supervision and ethics available for you. I would wonder what it would feel like for you to have a sense of belonging to a particular community that your face was held in and that you were welcome in.
So not just the like exchange of information and supervision, but actually some belonging. What would that be like for you? And I'm aware that Restory has some really strong offerings when it comes to both training and supervision for story work practitioners. And I think this is a really brilliant place to find that because you've heard Chris and Tracy over the last twenty minutes just talk about our value of not just offering ethical supervision.
or advice for story work practitioners, but also presence and awareness and belonging. And so that would be my invitation to if you don't have something locally, then to find a virtual community through Restory that you can plug into. Mm-hmm.
Chris Bruno
But Jeremy, I really love being alone. It's like, you know, you said, what is the cost of being alone? There's a cost of being in a group. There is a cost of doing that too. And so like, what about those people like you and me and Tracy who we have kind of the MO of like, I'm good.
Jeremy Williamson
What would you guys say? I would I would wonder with you, like, what do you know about why that feels good to you?
Chris Bruno
Yeah. And I would even say not only why that feels good, but why that feels necessary. Right. Right.
Tracy Johnson
And then I think I would add as a follow-up to that, like you can't just push through that or just ignore that. Ultimately, what that's telling you is that there is something around your ability to feel safe that needs more tending. And so, you know, we're offering this kind of space. It's a way that people can find us through the storywork collective. But I think what we're naming right here is that there might be people that are like,
I yeah. I don't know that I want that. And I think what I would say to those folks is then to do this work ethically, I would encourage you to consider that some additional tending to your own story would be a way to enter into what we're talking about. And possibly that would be something that could provide more safety and do it with the intention of like, Hey, this is what I'm here to talk about.
Jeremy Williamson
Uh-huh.
Tracy Johnson
This is what I need to do some work around.
Jeremy Williamson
Even as a gift to your clients or as an investment in your clients' experience. Yeah. I mean, Chris, you used the term echo chamber early on in this conversation. And that is real and it is dangerous. When you don't have anyone else to sort of measure yourself against or anyone in community with you, sometimes we can be many standard deviations away from what is ethical and good and strong work and not even know it.
You've drifted. And so even as an investment in your client's experience, I think it is worthwhile.
Chris Bruno
Wow.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jeremy, for all of that and for your time with us both today and on the the restory team. Before we end, you have a book coming out. And I would love for you to tell us a little bit about that and kind of when it's available, where it will be available, and but even more than the logistics of the book. Like, where did this work come from inside of you?
As you brought this book into the world, like what was happening inside of you over the last several years that you felt like, this is something I want to bring to the world?
Jeremy Williamson
Hmm. Thank you, Chris. Yeah, I'm excited. That's not my name is the title of the book. And I knew a couple of years ago that I had something to say. I felt something inside of me that was needing to come out. And it it came out in some sermons, in a few retreats. I was toying with the ideas here and there and eventually sat down to write something that I just felt like needed to live in the world. And to be honest, when I first wrote it, I wrote it sort of from outside myself and
felt a lot of pressure to be impressive. And you could tell when you read the rough draft, as both of you did, it was fine. And it was written fully from outside myself. And what I realized going back through it was that like I had something to say because I had been places and that there were things that existed in my own heart and story that were propelling that. And so as I went back through, I realized that that's not my name is about my story.
And it's about your story and it's about how we've been shaped by the false names that we've come to believe and what it's like to rebel against that and find our way home to who we actually are. And so it's a book about wounds, it's a book about false names, it's a book about rebellion, it's a book about hope. And I can't wait, it'll be available November fifth.
Chris Bruno
Hm. Awesome. And people can find it on Amazon, right?
Jeremy Williamson
Amazon, you'll be able to find the audiobook wherever you get your audiobooks from.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, both of us are excited to see that work actually in our hands in print and out into the world because we fully believe that you do have something to say and it is important for the world to hear. And I am just so grateful to have been part of that journey with you. And I think all three of us have worked on not just the storywork client work that we've been doing together, but in
And how the togetherness that we have experienced has birthed other things in other ways and other imaginations and writings and retreats and all the things that we're working on that the togetherness, the not alone has brought us. So I'm so excited.
Tracy Johnson
Me too.
Jeremy Williamson
Thank you. Thank you.
Chris Bruno
Okay. Thanks.
Tracy Johnson
With us today, Jeremy.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Okay. Well take care. Talk to you later.
Jeremy Williamson
Yeah.