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In each episode of Sustainability Insiders, Kevin Hegarty speaks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. In season two, Camilla Smith, from specialist sustainability recruiter Sustii, shares what candidates and employers are looking for in this fast‑growing talent marketplace. Ian O’Donnell MBE, from the Federation of Small Businesses, talks about the challenges - and opportunities - small businesses face in operating sustainably. And one of the sector’s standout leaders, Mary Aladegbola, breaks down how she navigates net-zero challenges across NHS England. Other guests include ESG lead Ewan Donald from engineering business Ipsum, and Graham Duxbury, Chief Executive of Groundwork. Hopefully each of their stories will inspire you on your sustainability journey, and give you the ideas and tools you need to make your own company more sustainable in the very near future.
Hi, and welcome to Sustainability Insiders, the podcast that talks to business leaders to find out how they're making their companies more sustainable. I'm Kevin Hegarty.
Libby Drabble:And I'm Libby Drabble. And we both work for Cadent, a UK utility business that's on its own sustainability journey.
Kevin Hegarty:Cards on the table, we are not experts on this. But perhaps like you, we're eager to learn. Join us on our journey as we chat to business leaders who are finding the answers right now to some of the biggest sustainability challenges. In this episode, I speak to Natasha Thacker, chief executive and cofounder of Ideagen Carbon Accounting. In our conversation, Natasha explains exactly what carbon accounting is and why it's an important concept for organizations across all industries over the coming years, how she and her team are using generative AI to help companies meet their sustainability targets, Anne shares some of her top tips for those who are just starting to think about ways they can accelerate their carbon reduction.
Kevin Hegarty:Hi Natasha and thanks for joining us on the Sustainability Insiders podcast.
Natasha Thakur:Hi Kevin, how are you?
Kevin Hegarty:I'm good, thank you, I'm good. I'm so keen to get to know about generative AI and I'm going to show my lack of knowledge of the whole thing and you're going to be able to explain it all to us I'm sure. It's such an interesting topic isn't it, the fact that, you know, we we are in a world where accounting for what we do and carbon accounting is so so important. But let's talk about you a bit first, if that's okay, and and how you got to where you are today. And I know you have been on a bit of a journey of your own and I'd like to explore that a little first please, if that's okay.
Natasha Thakur:Yes, of course. Actually started my career in finance. I went straight into investment banking and then into asset management. And while there, you know, really enjoyed where I worked, but very much had a desire to work in sustainability. And that came just from a fundamental perspective that we need more people working on sustainability if we're going to actually, you know, meet the needs of the challenge of global warming.
Natasha Thakur:And my thoughts were that the more people, the better, really. And so if I could be one of them, then, you know, that that that would be a good thing. So I kind of had that perspective and then started exploring what could I do within sustainability. And my initial thought actually was in within asset management. You know, can I can I stay within that sector and progress what was being done there?
Natasha Thakur:And within that sector, there's a huge amount of activity, but I felt that actually, when I went into the detail on data behind asset management decision making, that was where the I felt the problem was. The problem is is that companies, you know, do still find it very challenging to report on their carbon emissions and to understand in detail what their emissions are. And the challenges for companies are that it's inaccessible. So often companies don't have the right resource or the, you know, the required resource to really do carbon accounting effectively. And carbon accounting as well is often a black box and, you know, companies will work with their parties, and they don't really understand what they're reporting on.
Natasha Thakur:And both of those things mean meant that I had this view that maybe we could well, I could start and and think about something different. So I I basically started thinking a lot, planning, speaking to lots of people, and met my cofounders, Alex and Steve. And that was when it really became really exciting because Alex, he is the chief carbon officer of Amizio, and now I did a gen carbon accounting. He had a background in corporate carbon accounting and had exactly the same thought process as me, which was we can do better. The industry can do better, and I'd love to kinda be part of that journey.
Natasha Thakur:And Steve, our CTO, had actually worked for a carbon accounting software platform platform and also in AI for his for for most of his career. And he felt, as well as us, that something better can be done. If we use and harness generative AI in in the right way, we can really create a platform that actually solves those challenges of accessibility and accuracy. And so that's kind of when we started, and it's been a very fast journey, actually. And I think I think part of that is because it's a very fast moving industry, sustainability.
Natasha Thakur:There's so many changes, a lot of activity now with corporate carbon accounting. And so we're now part of IdeaGen as of February. Ideagen are a global leader in regulatory and compliance software. They are UK based, but with 16,000 global customers all using different solutions within the Ideagen product suite to really support with lots of different regulation compliance challenges. And so we're now Ideagen carbon accounting, which is really exciting.
Natasha Thakur:We're our platform is now being used by Ideagen customers, and, yeah, we're really kind of excited to be part of that larger business.
Kevin Hegarty:Fantastic. And this next bit is where I expose my absolute lack of understanding in relation to generative AI and and carbon accounting in its own right. And that's the purpose of the podcast is to help explain it to to people like myself and others. So let's go into that then really. What let's start with some of the back to basics.
Kevin Hegarty:Let's let's talk about carbon accounting and what what do we actually mean by carbon accounting?
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. So carbon accounting is very simply the process of measuring emissions and that is greenhouse gas emissions. Usually, people kind of think about carbon accounting in two ways. It could be corporate carbon accounting, which is measuring the emissions of an organization, or it could be product level carbon accounting, which is measuring the emissions associated with the specific products and its use and disposal as well. So within corporate carbon accounting, which is what IDIG and carbon accounting supports with, there are three scopes, scope one, two, and three.
Natasha Thakur:Scope one and two are related to the emissions directly controlled by a by a business. So scope one being specifically direct emissions from owned or controlled sources, such as owned vehicles or boilers. Scope two being indirect emissions, such as purchase electricity for an org for a cup for a company or an organization. Scope three being the kind of for the one that actually gets really complicated, which is the indirect emissions from sources that an organization doesn't own or control. So that can be things like supply chain emissions or business travel, employee commuting, etcetera.
Natasha Thakur:So, yeah, in summary well, it's that's a quite a a long summary, but carbon accounting is is literally accounting for your emissions. The main standard globally is the GSU protocol, which luckily kind of the in most most organizations do adhere to the GHG protocol, which means that there is some level of consistency across the way in which we do carbon accounting now. But I you know, there's still a long way to go. So, hopefully, in a few years' time, corporate carbon accounting will be done in the same level of rigor as financial accounting, but we're still we're still not quite there.
Kevin Hegarty:Oh, that's interesting in its own right, isn't it? Do you find is is carbon accounting part of the finance team now? Or does it sit within another team and another business? Or, you know, where where does the actual accountability for for carbon in your experience currently sit within most businesses?
Natasha Thakur:Yes. So with businesses that are of a certain size, that's usually we find over kind of the 500 or so employee mark. They usually do have someone that is responsible for ESG. And that person is is usually the one the the the individual who is responsible for collecting that those cut that carbon emissions data. And with small organizations, it could it we find it's very, very varied.
Natasha Thakur:It could be, for example, some someone like a head of facilities. It could be head of compliance. Like you said, it could be with the the CFO. But because this is a new area within business, often there's a very there's a very diverse range of people responsible because the board or or the, you know, the chief the c suite have have needed to do corporate accounting and just place that with someone, and that that person can be in lots of different roles.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. Indeed. So I guess the one takeaway from this is if you're listening to this podcast and you might not think you've automatically got a role that fits to carbon accounting, but you have the role has fallen on yourself, then you might not be unusual. There's plenty of other people out there who are still learning and still developing this whole idea of carbon accounting with it being in its infancy, although developing and growing. And in terms of generative AI then, as opposed to just AI, what what do we mean by that?
Kevin Hegarty:Where you were using then the artificial intelligence technology behind this to be able to help people with carbon accounting. But what do we mean? What's the difference between just AI and generative AI?
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. So it's it's a big topic. So I'll try and I was I was I might speak for a little bit of time. So first just start about artificial intelligence and AI that is kind of almost like you can say it like a discipline. It's like a a science, if if you like.
Natasha Thakur:So doesn't necessarily relate to one specific thing that has been created. It it it refers to a whole branch of of of computer science, which was related to getting machines to perform human like tasks. Underneath this whole discipline of artificial intelligence sits other categories. Within that is generative AI. Generative AI is a type of AI that uses large datasets and makes predictions based on those underlying datasets that it can then use to generate original content.
Natasha Thakur:So the difference with generative AI to other types of AI is that the content is original. It's not it's not actually easy to define what that original content is going to look like. And, therefore, it's, you know, it's taken taken the world by storm, I guess, you can say, because it looks like it's a human that is generating this original content, but, actually, it's it's simply deep learning models that have been trained with lots of different underlying datasets and are able to be to basically predict what the output should be, and those outputs can be extremely varied. In terms of how we're using generative AI and how other companies are are using generative AI, there's a there's a lot of different use cases. So I think one of the things that luckily had has happened quite fast is that there's a realization that it's a generative AI can be a very, very useful asset to to businesses, companies need to kind of get up to speed with what generative AI is and how it's used.
Natasha Thakur:With Ideas and Carbon Accounting, what we're actually doing is we we well, we treat generative AI as a component. Right? So it's we're not building the models. We're not tweaking the models themselves. What we're doing is using the AI simply as a as a tool in a similar way to we do with other tools, actually.
Natasha Thakur:So our our platform itself is made up of a suite of of third party tools that are kind of neatly stitched together with a lot of intelligence surrounding that. But it means, ultimately, that we can we have been able to create a very smart platform with a relatively lean team of engineers. And the way that we're using generative AI is that we are able now to ingest documents and data from across a business in its native format. And those that data those datasets can look like, as you can imagine, lots of varied datasets. So different languages, different offices, different business travel software solutions that have different different types of data.
Natasha Thakur:And it all when you're when you're looking at carbon accounting and the data that's required for for carbon accounting, it's very, very varied. So what we do is we we actually have trained our generative AI to be able to ingest all of that data and provide us with intelligence on what that data says. So by training, I mean that we're actually we're to go into a bit of detail here, we're actually creating a a huge amount of prompts to be able to instruct the AI to do the exact job that we ask it to. And so, really, the intelligence is in the the engineering that's gone into the platform, all of the data that we've ingested, all of the tweaks we've made to those specific instructions, all of the code and the intelligence has gone gone into that to to make sure that now if a company uploads documents, they could be in German, they could be in Chinese, they could be in a PDF form. They could be an image.
Natasha Thakur:They could be in Excel, etcetera. All of all of those different types of documents can simply be ingested by our platform, and we don't have to do anything, but the generative AI can give us information on on what's in that data and we can then use that to calculate carbon emissions. So yeah. Hopefully, does that does that kind of make sense? I know I went on for a bit there.
Kevin Hegarty:Oh no, you didn't. It was really really informative and really interesting and it makes it clear to me that there's so much goes into building the software and the platform to enable you to be able to do that. For an individual business that might become a client, do you, you know, do you look at them and develop a bespoke package for them or is it a bit off the shelf or is there somewhere in between that you deliver for them?
Natasha Thakur:So so we so we have one platform and our customers all use the same platform. So we you know, as as part of the process of building a business, we obviously engage very closely with our with our with our customers and and ask them for for what's what they need and what they would if there's anything they would change. But we we have one platform, and it can accommodate all of the different datasets from from all of all of our different customers because it's you know, because of this amazing intelligence that is GentleAI, we we're we're everyday, we're actually impressed by what it can cope with. We, you know, we have datasets that are 200,000 line items sometimes. We have different images with watermarks and photographs of bills that land on people's desks, and all of that can be processed within the platform.
Natasha Thakur:And it it it's it's really interesting because it really is kind it's kind of like we have a team of a 100 analysts all doing their job of kind of having to sift through all these documents and work out what the specific data is that we need from each of these documents. But instead of having to hire those 100 analysts, we actually have just a machine that does it for us, and it it's it's really cool.
Kevin Hegarty:It it is. And I wonder if there's some examples you can give us of clients you maybe work with today who and how they're using it, perhaps without giving the trade secrets away. But what's the what's the what's the impact of the reporting, and what's it enabling them to do, and how may maybe they are changing their business as a result of the data and the reports that are coming back?
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. Sure. So so one example would be a UK based significant asset manager who previously was using a consultant for their carbon emissions reporting. They have around 20 global offices, and one of the challenges was, firstly, they they had one person who was responsible for carbon emissions accounting, and he he was spending a lot of time on that work and wanted to really spend his time on strategic thinking around how they can improve their processes, what things they needed to build into the business to meet their net zero goals, and, you know, driving kind of business strategy rather than doing all the the data collection and the kind of maintenance of carbon accounting. So he had a he had an element of not having enough time.
Natasha Thakur:He also wanted to really understand the calculations behind their carbon emissions. He wanted to really make sure that he understood exactly how every report was calculated and found it frustrating that with other providers, he would have a vague sense of the data that had gone into it, but really didn't really understand the underlying calculations and all the emission factors that being used. And he'd also noted that having tried to repeat the process the next year, it had been a massive pain because people had left the business and different systems were now being run, and it was really difficult to kind of repeat the the carbon accounting process. So with all of that, we we kind of we started engaging, and, you know, he he kind of recognized that, actually, we could definitely save time, but we could also make the whole process super transparent. For example, in the platform, you can drill into every single individual record that's ever been uploaded.
Natasha Thakur:You can see and download all of the underlying data in the format that it's it's coming into the platform. You can also have a look at all of the underlying mission factors that were used and export that all from the platform. So we don't believe in the kind of black box approach. We want to give as much information as possible. So he really valued that as well, and he's now being able to explain a lot in a lot more detail to his board about exactly where emission hotspots are here.
Natasha Thakur:He now has a lot more confidence as well to kind of explain how exactly all of the calculations have been made. So it's really it's it's freed up his time and he's yeah. He's he's been happy to be a customer and we have quite a few other kind of examples, but I'll I'll stop there.
Kevin Hegarty:Okay. So you've moved, obviously, as a business now. You're you've only it's it's only a couple of years, isn't it? We're talking a couple of years that this has just grown so quickly, and you've moved from, you know, a start up business to now being snapped up by another bigger business and bringing you more opportunity. What what do you see as the future looking like for for the business?
Kevin Hegarty:And, obviously, now part of a a much bigger business, How do you see that given your opportunities, and where do you see the future going?
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. I think so we are really pleased to be part of IdeaGen because we're benefiting from the idea gen kind of thought leadership and thinking around a lot a lot related to kind of how to run a SaaS business effectively. So everything from the regulatory compliance side, but also to the sales and marketing side of things. We're making the most of being part of that bigger business and learning from all of the other solutions that are with within the Ideagem suite. So that's really helping us be competitive, and we're able now to kind of just basically utilize all of that knowledge and become a become an even better business.
Natasha Thakur:I also think that there's a big opportunity to for us to support ideas and customers of other products. So for us, that was a an obvious kind of selling point when I was thinking about the business growth. With 16,000 global customers, there's a lot of opportunity for them to benefit from different IdeaGen products and IdeaGen carbon accounting. I think, you know, the business is really prioritizing ESG and sustainability regulations, so I'm really optimistic about being part of the business going forwards because as we know, there's a huge amount of regulatory pressure. CSRD, for example, has come in for listed businesses, and in 2028, it's going to affect a lot of the kind of smaller businesses with significant revenues coming from Europe.
Natasha Thakur:So we, you know, we are kind of gearing up to be able to support businesses with those regulatory and compliance requirements. And I think what I did and have is, you know, it and and has today is a really interesting suite of tools to help companies do that.
Kevin Hegarty:What advice might you give to people who just really don't know where to start? Do you know, they might be in a business, I'm assuming some businesses are are making progress now, some people might be taking early baby steps, but there might even be some who just haven't don't understand it, can't get their heads around it. Is there some advice you can give around that where perhaps your product might offer some support longer term, but is is, you know, I guess the whole point is don't just don't bury your your head in the sand. It's it's it's something that's coming for us all, isn't it? We've got to be involved in this.
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. I I think if if I I if there's anyone listening who is just starting the sustainability journey as a business and there's a very loose goal around improving sustainability. I think one spending time on the kind of fund fundamentals make it does make sense. So the one and I I know I would say this, but one of the fundamentals would be kind of understanding where you are as a business today with your carbon emissions. And there are some free tools.
Natasha Thakur:I they the government, for example, have there there are certain free tools you can access, but they are limited in terms of the ability to really see the detail of the of the results and really understand how to act on those results as well because a lot of it is spend based data, which is difficult to kind of make use of. But you can start with that and just have a spend spend a little bit of time learning about carbon accounting in general. And, you know, for for for other businesses, it's really understanding what the, you know, what the demand where what the demands are and where they come from. So we speak to businesses with investors who really want to understand plans for carbon for for carbon reduction. We you know, and often businesses are thinking about more more from a marketing perspective or from a a a kind of customer perspective as well.
Natasha Thakur:So kind of trying to understand where the where the where the demand has come from and, yeah. And focus one by one on on kind of on next steps really, would be would the first thing to do.
Kevin Hegarty:Yeah. And and for yourself, it must be a quite a wonderful feeling, I suppose, really, to be involved in something that's so important for wider business and the success of wider business, not just sustainability in the kind of greener sense, but, you know, to have a long term future for any business. You you are involved in that journey with lots of different businesses in the supply chain, aren't you? Like, you know, and being able to make sure that the people can can continue to exist long into the future.
Natasha Thakur:Yeah. It's it's really rewarding. It's definitely challenging. I mean, anyone working in sustainability and and AI is is a a world of confusing jargon and new regulations and lots of activity, but it's really it's really rewarding mostly because I'm extremely proud of the product itself and and the actual effectiveness of the product and also the, you know, the feedback we get from customers. And that that is, you know, is really rewarding to be part of a part of that.
Kevin Hegarty:Amazing. Natasha, thank you so much for for for joining us on the podcast. It's been a been lovely to speak to you. Just for the avoidance of doubt for anybody listening, we have been talking about AI and I have been talking to a human being. I can see your face while our listeners might not be able to because we are doing this with audio on me so
Natasha Thakur:That would be great if it was actually a chatbot.
Kevin Hegarty:No, it's absolutely amazing to talk to you and thank you for joining us on the podcast.
Natasha Thakur:Kevin, great to be here, thanks.
Kevin Hegarty:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of Sustainability Insiders, please give the show a follow and a review in your podcast app.
Libby Drabble:If you've got a story to share about how you're making your business or industry more sustainable, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email using media.relations@cadentgas.com. Speak to you again soon.