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Real News For Real New Mexicans.
The Chile Wire with Abe Baldonado.
Megan Hinojos:Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Chile Wire. My name is Megan Hinojos and I am guest hosting this week's episode. Today, we have John Seago with us all the way from Texas. Thank you for coming, John.
Dr. John Seago:Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Megan Hinojos:So can you introduce yourself and just tell us who you are, what you do, and what led you to get into the work that you do?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So, yeah, happy to happy to be here with you guys. I serve as the president of Texas Right to Life, and so it's the the largest and oldest pro life state wide organization in Texas, and they have been, you know, fighting for life, trying to build a culture of life in Texas since the late sixties. Mhmm. And I joined the effort when I was in high school.
Dr. John Seago:I volunteered at Texas Right to Life in because my parents were involved there. My parents were pro life activists in Houston in the late eighties and early nineties. Two of my siblings actually were, adopted because of their pro life work, Downtown Houston and trying to minister to women that had been convinced that abortion was in their best interest. And so my family has adopted them and other of my sisters were adopted. And so it's just, you know, we've always been a pro life family.
Dr. John Seago:And I started volunteering for Texas Right to Life because I was interested in how seeing how an organization like this engages in politics and engages in the legislative process and was really blown away at just the impact that a small organization could have on the kind of statewide scene. And really what you know, kind of eye opening for me is I went to the legislature and to shadow the Texas Right to Life team. And whenever we were there in the Texas capital, you know, I saw the legislators on the floor giving speeches and, you know, engaged in debate. I thought they were the heroes, but what I noticed was they were reading off of a piece of paper that actually, you know, Texas right to life had given them, you know, with statistics and with the studies and the talking points and, you know, and then I found out that the Texas Right to Life team actually helped write the bill that they were arguing about. And to me, that was kind of like a eye opening moment.
Dr. John Seago:I was like, ah, that's really where the work is being Yeah. Yeah. The guy, you know, in there and we love our elected officials. We love our legislators, but, you know, they can't do it on their own. They need the the subject experts and the backup, especially on an important issue like this.
Dr. John Seago:And so I was just kind of like, okay, that's that's really amazing. So I volunteered with them, I started working with Texas Right to Life and have been with them for over eighteen years now.
Megan Hinojos:That's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Can you briefly explain the pro life position and tell us why you're pro life?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. I mean, ultimately, it's really a view about humanity. You know, it's a view about human beings. And, you know, for us, there's there's multiple angles to come at this, but, you know, even when we you know, I'm I'm a Christian. I I grew up in a Christian home.
Dr. John Seago:But even when I talk to my neighbors, who don't have the same worldview that I have, they know instinctively that humans are different than animals, that humans are different than, you know, trees and forests. And I live in Austin. It's a very liberal area. And so there's all kinds of causes of, you know, protecting the rights of, you know, this and that. But even when you have these conversations, they acknowledge there is something different about human beings.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And, you know, from a Christian perspective, we we kind of understand that's because, you know, humans were created Mhmm. In the image of God. Humans were created with a unique position over, you know, in in the world in creation. And so but even then, just not not kind of acknowledging that, you can just look and see there is something uniquely special about human beings.
Dr. John Seago:And science tells us that that specialness, that uniqueness, that dignity actually begins, you know, at the very first seconds of existence of an embryo. Whenever there is kind of this spark of life at the very beginning of in an embryo, you know, that that entity stops becoming an organ and starts acting like an organism. And so we kind of take our ethics, we take our moral conscience, and we inform it by science, and we say, oh, that means anytime we have a human being, anytime we see that there is a human being in question, they are unique, they are valuable, and they deserve our moral attention. And so those are the conversations we try to have. There are several areas where the dignity and value of human beings are being attacked Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:In society. You know, as a pro life organization, we focus on some of the most egregious ones, you know, some of the most egregious attacks on human life because it's the intentional killing. And so these practices like abortion, like destruction of embryos, like euthanasia or, you know, violating a patient's rights, these are the most clear kind of examples when we have forgotten about the dignity of that human being and have actually said we're going to intentionally cause their death. And so that's kind of where we're focused, that's that's the conversations I try to have with my friends, that's you know, why I went back to school and got a couple of extra degrees in bioethics is because that's the field that we're having those debates about, what is a human and what are protections we should put on around them. And so that's kind of, you know, the conversations that we're trying to have, not just in the Texas capital, but also in the culture to really renew that sense of appreciation for the human person.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. To create that kind of culture of life.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Yeah. And and it's gotta be both. It's gotta be a defensive stop the attacks on life but it also has to be a positive, you know, and a proactive work of what do we do to build a culture of life where that high view of humanity I'm talking about is restored. Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:And as conservatives as, you know, you know, some of our our friends listening will be Republicans, in these movements, have to do both. Yeah. You know, and I think that's very ingrained in the the Christian tradition, that's very ingrained in scripture, but it's also ingrained in American history of, yes, we want to protect rights kind of defensively, but we also want to elevate the human person and lead to human flourishing. And so those two projects are are what we're trying to do at Texas Rights of Life.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. And it's not just about, you know, protecting the baby, although it is, you know, the focus, but it's also the mother. It's also creating that culture of life and flourishing beyond, you know, birth.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean, this is all of the things that we believe about the uniqueness and the value of that child applies to the mother.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. And so, know, last year, some of the hardest work that I did last year was to pass a bill on the Life of the Mother Act to make sure that our medical community in Texas knew that our pro life values didn't stop with a baby. That our pro life values meant you do treat and you do prioritize the life and health of a mother who's in a medical emergency, who's facing a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy and there was, you know, there was a lot of misinformation about what our pro life laws do in the practice of medicine and some of the hardest work we had in the capital last year was to really clarify, no, Texas can do both. We can protect the baby and the mother. You know, the interesting thing is that in nature, mother and child are united.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. Mother and child are not warring parties, right? That's actually, we've kind of created that fiction by the mom and the baby are kind of like in this struggle against one another. Mhmm. No.
Dr. John Seago:When you look at, you know, you look at the beauty of of a mother and her child, it's actually they're united. They're on the same team. Yes. Right? And so we've kind of created this hostility by law, but but that's what we were trying to restore with a law last year we passed to make sure doctors knew what the truth was.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. That they weren't believing the lies in the media, that they weren't being persuaded by, you know, the misinformation on social media. So requiring that and then, you know, there were some things that we did in law to make sure doctors had the confidence to save that mother, to help that mother no matter what.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Speaking of the laws, so you got into this work when you were in high school, or you started volunteering
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. When you
Megan Hinojos:were in high school. How do the laws in Texas look different when you first started versus today?
Dr. John Seago:Oh, yeah. I mean, it's been it it's been an amazing development. It's been quite a quite a journey. So we whenever I first started, we were working on reporting bill. We were working on a sonogram bill to notify women about the truth of what's going on.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. You know, our abortion clinics in Texas were not telling the truth. Mhmm. Right? They were not giving the woman the information she needed to make an informed decision.
Dr. John Seago:And so we were fighting for the sonogram bill. We were fighting for a a better reporting system. There was a lot of things that we were working on there and then there's some regulations. It was very, you know, it kinda seems odd now looking at what Texas law is, you know, in Texas right now, we we have banned all elective abortions. We protect every baby, no matter where, you know, kind of where they are, what their age is, what their capacity is, you know, we don't allow for abortion because a child has a disability, know, that that that's not ethical.
Dr. John Seago:Right? Those that with disabilities, those with diminished abilities actually need more from us, not less protection. And so in Texas now, we we have kind of a really great system where we're we're protecting all human beings, but, that was not the case, you know, about twenty years ago. Yeah. It was it was long.
Dr. John Seago:And so so now what we do is we get to help other states, you know, our friends in Colorado who are talking about parental involvement and you know, our friends in other states that are looking at where where they can move in their specific context to protect life. You know, we have a great roadmap and that we try to share of, hey, here are steps that we were able to take even with Roe, even the limitations that Roe v Wade put on us. And now we're trying to help other states. There are big issues that we're trying to tackle in Texas as well. You know, one of our number one priorities right now is, you know, what do we do about abortion pill trafficking?
Dr. John Seago:You know, there are over 19,000 abortion pills being shipped into Texas every year. Mhmm. And then what do we do about travel? You know, abortion travel is a really big concern is that, you know, 23,000 Texas women have been convinced that it's in her best interest to leave the state Mhmm. For abortion.
Dr. John Seago:She takes her baby outside of the state, doesn't return to the state with her baby. And that's, you know, that's a more of a cultural problem.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:Right? You know, there's not a lot of legal strategies that are very promising in that space, but that's an area of how do we convince that woman that is not in her best interest, that she is going to have the support, she is going to have, you know, the network that she needs, the opportunities that she needs to to flourish in that in her motherhood or to, you know, choose you know, flourish in her her pregnancy and then choose something like adoption. And so we're trying to figure those out but so there are still big pressing issues in Texas but we have come a long way.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. Yeah. We'll talk about the New Mexico Texas relationship Yep. Just a bit. So here in New Mexico, our laws are extremely permissive.
Megan Hinojos:We are kind of the abortion capital of the country Yeah. Positioned that way by our leaders, specifically. There are almost no restrictions, there's almost no reporting, numbers are even hard to find just how many abortions are being performed. So Texas and New Mexico are very, different. But if you were to move to New Mexico, just knowing what you know about your history with changing laws and all of that and knowing a little bit about where we are, what do you think are some of the first steps that you would want to take to influence law to protect those unborn babies and mothers?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. I mean, this is a completely different environment. You know, I I talk about prudence a lot. It's about political prudence means being realistic about your your resources, your opportunities, you know, and the constraints of political opinion or public opinion. And so, know, we have to exercise prudence.
Dr. John Seago:And so, you know, although Texans have a big ego, you know, like, y'all y'all have seen the the red hats that say, you know, make America great again. Well, we have red hats that say make America taxis. Okay? That's that's the level of, like, Texas ego that we have, and I won't apologize for that. So so as much as we would like to say just be Texas.
Dr. John Seago:Right? You know, we we do have to practice prudence when when and this is what we do with our partners in other states is looking at, okay, you know, what are the biggest barriers right now? Looking at your political trends, what are the the myths, what are the misinformation, what are the lies that your voting population has bought into? Mhmm. You know, one of the most damaging, you know, kind of campaigns misinformation in Texas for a while was about medical emergencies, was about caring for women in those difficult medical situations.
Dr. John Seago:And so that's we we kind of noticed that and we're like, we need to pay attention to this. We need to get experts. We need to put a concerted effort into setting the record straight. And so that would be my first, you know, kind of recommendation in New Mexico is kind of analyzing the field of where are the big barriers, what is really holding us back. Is it just this general pro choice kind of attitude of this is a freedom, this is a liberty, and we need to wait, it it kind of engage it at that level or are there other specific concerns like the medical emergency?
Dr. John Seago:So building the culture, you know, you can't do much without, you know, popular support and without elective victories. So building the culture And then one of the most important things we did in Texas was engaging students. Oh. And was engaging college students. And so in 2008, we launched a program to give scholarships and do training and mentorship for college students to start pro life groups at their campus.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And so we have a network, right now, I just just did some training with them. We have a network of college students who are pro life leaders at their schools.
Megan Hinojos:Interesting.
Dr. John Seago:And in most of our schools, if they're not hearing the pro life message, even in Texas, if they're not hearing the pro life message from a student group, they're not hearing the pro life truth at all.
Speaker 3:At
Dr. John Seago:all. They're not going to hear it from their professors, they're not going to hear it from their administrations in most cases. Yeah. And so that is a key piece that I would recommend any state, not neglect, is what are we doing to build the culture? And the culture is not abstract, the culture is people.
Dr. John Seago:Yep. You know, the the culture of real students that are gonna go and and the students that attend those pro life groups that hear great speakers, that hear great debates, that see pro life movies and have discussions like those, you know, students become, you know, leaders of their own schools. They become teachers. They become, you know, it it kind of they shape the culture even if they don't go into pro life work
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:They become more informed citizens and they become, you know, pro life ambassadors wherever they are. And so that's a key piece that I would do and it has nothing to do with politics. I mean, that has nothing to do with whether we can win this election or not. Mhmm. That has to do with building the culture.
Dr. John Seago:So analyzing what are the big barriers and then, you know, incrementalism is Yeah. Prudence tells us to to take as many, you know, as big of a step as we can at the time. Mhmm. And so looking back, you know, y'all are fighting on some very policies like reporting. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:You know, I think parental involvement is is something that always needs to be discussed and it's kind of in the bigger political discussion right now. Parents' rights,
Speaker 3:you know,
Dr. John Seago:parental rights is really hot, really important debate going on. And so I think that's an area to to push in on how it applies in this space.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely.
Dr. John Seago:But yeah, we definitely don't want like to swoop in and tell people what to do. But those are areas that, you know, we have seen very successful in other states.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. Anything that we would have to pass here legislative wise would have to be bipartisan.
Dr. John Seago:Right.
Megan Hinojos:Are there any bills, assuming we're starting pretty much at the bottom Yeah. That you think that we could get bipartisan support on here that you've seen maybe in other areas?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So political victory doesn't always mean passing a bill.
Megan Hinojos:Okay.
Dr. John Seago:And and so one of I mean, some of the greatest success that we've had in Texas was the debate. Mhmm. And even when we would pass a law and it would be immediately enjoined because of some liberal judges, you know, we would have, you know, we would have success in having the discussion. And not all discussions around our topic are helpful. You know, a lot of our friends talk about like regulations of the of the hospitals or, you know, requiring abortionists to have admitting privileges.
Dr. John Seago:Those are instrumental, but the conversation around those laws are about safety standards. Yep. Whereas you and I want to have the conversation about the humanity of the child Mhmm. And the inhumanity of elective abortion. It's not this soft, fluffy, right floating in the sky.
Dr. John Seago:It's an act of violence.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:And so, you know, what we used in Texas to to shape that cultural conversation are bills like the Preborn Pain Protection Act where we banned abortion at twenty weeks because there's, you know, the the medical consensus is that these children can feel pain. Mhmm. There's, you know, there's chemical evidence, there's behavioral evidence, there's physiological evidence that these children have the capacity to feel pain. Even if that bill doesn't pass
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:By you having that debate, by there being articles written about it, debates on social media about whether that is junk science or real science and what studies are you talking about, that is the kind of cultural conversation you and I want to have in our communities. Definitely. And so, things like that, you know, language or or anti discrimination bills that say you cannot cause the death of a child in the womb because of their gender Mhmm. Because of their biological sex, because of their ethnicity even. You know, there's been terrible stories of fathers that have coerced their daughters into having abortion because the dad of the the baby was a different was a different ethnicity.
Dr. John Seago:Right? Yep. Even your liberal friends don't want that kind of an abortion. Yeah. You know, the same thing with children with disabilities, you know, that I I I really think there's a lot of power in talking about, that's discrimination.
Dr. John Seago:Yes. Saying that this human being doesn't have the right to life because they're not expected to look the way you and I do or have the same, you know, the the same abilities you and I do. That is inconsistent with the ideas and the principles that that our liberal friends share and try to defend in other contexts.
Megan Hinojos:Absolutely. So going back to the relationship between New Mexico and Texas, we were given an undercover video from a journalist here
Speaker 3:in New
Megan Hinojos:Mexico who went to an abortion clinic, basically said, I have a niece in Texas and she's pregnant. Mhmm. She's 14 years old. Can she get an abortion? So we'll watch that video now.
Speaker 3:Here at the age of 14, she makes that decision on her
Speaker 4:own. Okay.
Speaker 3:So we would she would call us. We would make her an appointment because she'd be considered an
Speaker 4:adult Okay.
Speaker 3:At 14. So if she calls us and says she wants to terminate, then we will get her scheduled.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then she can we can do, like, options counseling for
Speaker 4:her. Okay.
Speaker 3:And with that options counseling, she can talk to the doctor and the doc and that way she can decide if she wants to continue with the pregnancy or not. And if she doesn't, then we can terminate that day depending on how far along she is if that's what she wants.
Speaker 4:Okay. And as far as how much time we have, what are the weeks and stuff? Like, can you maybe tell me weeks. Yeah. Up to twenty four weeks.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Okay. And it how is the procedure? Like, is it surgery, or is it, like, medication? Or how does that work?
Speaker 3:So it depends on how far along she is. So it could either be a a DNC where they go in and, like, suction it out.
Speaker 4:Suck like, with suction? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Medication.
Speaker 3:Or medication. So it depends on what she wants to do and depends on how far along she is.
Speaker 4:She's really nervous about if if you're gonna notify the parents. What are the rules related to her privacy?
Speaker 3:So out here, we don't notify anybody. If she says no, it's no.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:We don't call parents. We don't let them know if the so let's say her parent calls us. If her parent is not on the emergency contact list, we don't give out that
Speaker 4:information. Okay.
Speaker 3:So she won't they won't get any information from you. So it's stated in Mexico at the age of 14. She makes that old she makes her own assumption.
Speaker 4:And it's okay if it's somebody from Texas that doesn't make a difference?
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter where they come from.
Megan Hinojos:Okay. What are your first just first reactions, first thoughts after seeing that video?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. I mean, this is evidence of a trend that we we saw a lot of statistics about. Yes. We see the statistics that in 2023, over 20,000 women left Texas to get abortions in other states. We know forty two percent of that traffic is coming right here into New Mexico.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:And so we're talking about, you know, 9,000 women are doing what this this is talking about.
Speaker 3:The video.
Dr. John Seago:Is is and we don't know their their age as it was talked about. We don't know who's bringing them.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:And so this is yeah. I mean, this is really heartbreaking that you, you know, you have a minor. And typically in public policy, we give extra attention and layers of protection for people like her. Yes. And so this is really heartbreaking to see that this institution is almost like gleeful.
Dr. John Seago:Mean, they're
Megan Hinojos:they're almost like we'll pay for it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Megan Hinojos:We won't tell your parents.
Dr. John Seago:They're excited about all of the ways that they get to break down the protective layers that we have added for minors in in other scenarios. So it's yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think this really highlights for me personally just why we cannot be comfortable with saying this is a state issue.
Dr. John Seago:Yes. And especially people in Texas, for example, can't be comfortable saying, oh, well, we live in a pro life state. Mhmm. You know, as if that gives us some kind of comfort. That if this, I mean, you know, this is an act of injustice, you know, having trafficking minors across the borders, even if the minor is willing, that still you think about, you know, kidnapping laws, we still say Absolutely.
Dr. John Seago:The attitude of the minor doesn't affect the criminality of the action. Right?
Megan Hinojos:Yes. Absolutely.
Dr. John Seago:You know, this wouldn't be allowed for other any other stand you know, any other medical procedure. This is it's it's just baffling.
Megan Hinojos:The age of consent for women and girls here in the state is 14 to receive medical procedures like that.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Megan Hinojos:And there are no protections for girls who could be trafficked
Dr. John Seago:Right.
Megan Hinojos:Who are coerced. So a girl in Texas who is pregnant by anyone, we don't know who, no questions are asked Yeah. In the videos, It can be brought to New Mexico with no questions asked by the staff. They're not going to seek out parents. They're not going to ask, you know, are are you under coercion?
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. I think. They're just saying, yeah, come on in.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm.
Megan Hinojos:We'll get you an abortion, we'll help you pay for it, and then we'll send you back, and hopefully you don't have any complications because your parents don't know that you just had a medical procedure. Right. All the way up to twenty four weeks.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. And Well, in other public policy environments, if this behavior was happening like at a clinical level, red flags would be going off about trafficking, about abuse, about I mean, and the fact that it's just like, yeah, let let's let's cool coordinate. Let me give you some ideas of how, you know, I can help this random guy. Yeah. You know, talk about this, you know, 14 year old.
Dr. John Seago:I I I think this is just shows that the other side has thrown out all of these common, you know, sense protections for minors and for women. They've thrown them out for the goal of promoting abortion with no questions asked. Absolutely. You know, and we see that in the abortion pill trafficking space. We see that here in the the actual trafficking of Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:Of minors. So yeah. I'm I'm curious. Can you you know, I I see that there's a little logo on the video. Can you give me more about the context of the video?
Megan Hinojos:So it was given to us, we don't know all of the context. Okay. It was taken though at the UNMH Health Clinic.
Dr. John Seago:Okay.
Megan Hinojos:So the University of New Mexico Health Clinic. They're taking taxpayer funding.
Dr. John Seago:Okay.
Megan Hinojos:So this is, you know, our tax dollars are helping to
Speaker 3:pay So this is for
Dr. John Seago:a state university? Yes. Okay.
Megan Hinojos:Yes. And the health clinic attached to the university. Yeah. And, yeah.
Dr. John Seago:Wow. So so yeah. I mean, typically, you know, in Texas and other states, institutions that receive taxpayer dollars are held to a higher standard, not a lower standard. Exactly. And so, you know, this is I I think that just adds a layer of of disgust here of that.
Dr. John Seago:This is actually what, you know, our tax, you know, dollars are going towards here, you know, for our friends in New Mexico. And this is you know, there's a state interest in protecting life generally. There's a state interest in protecting minors, but there's absolutely state interest in, you know, kinda regulating the behavior and the programs and what what's going on at a state funded institution like this. So, you know, I I I'm very excited to see your elected officials faced with this.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:And for it at least to expose this is how extreme even the, you know, kind of the environment and attacks funded institution like UNM has become.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. I think our pro choice state leaders champion, you know, our pro choice laws.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm.
Megan Hinojos:And they, the people kind of say, yeah, this is this great thing, you know, women can get abortions at any stage, you know, because they need them and there's all of their talking points. And people aren't thinking about all of the extras that come with that, the girls who can be coerced and trafficked, And so it's a really important conversation to have. Yeah. I know you mentioned earlier that there's not a lot Texas can do to try and prevent that interstate travel. Yeah.
Megan Hinojos:But is there anything that you guys have been talking about that you could do?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So I mean, you know, there was this myth in the media for a little while about travel bans. Yep. And that that was never a thing. That was never That that's not a thing.
Dr. John Seago:You can't ban travel. You can't even try to I mean, I don't even know what a bill would look like Yes. You know, to Yep. To attempt this. So, you know, what there is, is there is federal legislation that was filed about intention or about trafficking minors over state lines for abortion.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And that is the jurisdiction of the federal government. Right? And that is actually why we have a federal government is because of the limits of the states
Megan Hinojos:and things
Dr. John Seago:like this. And so so, you know, I was encouraged to see that our senate, you know, Texas senators were supportive of that legislation. But as far as the state, I mean, this is really the difficulty of, you know, the best that we can do is we can create networks of support.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:We can create an environment where barriers are removed to health care, to housing, to child care, you know, to so that a woman who's facing this decision immediately is not susceptible to this kind of persuasion from, you know, some some random guy Yeah. Who wants to traffic her that is not, you know, that not open to that persuasion because they know these barriers that these immediate challenges I'm facing with this unexpected pregnancy Mhmm. Can be overcome. And that's what we have to con as a culture of life, we have to convince women in New Mexico and in Texas, when you're facing an unexpected pregnancy, there are, you know, people here to help you. Yes.
Dr. John Seago:There are navigators to help connect you to making sure you get the medical care, the social services, the housing options you need. That's really be, you know, what's going to shape her thinking in the immediate moment. Yeah. Right? And so when you look at these surveys of why women are choosing abortion, you know, some of the these are the top issues that I've mentioned is, you know, financial, her employment, housing, childcare and medical care, you know, these are clearly the things that are on the forefront of her mind.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So what can we do to promote a culture that says, yes, we want to be there to help you overcome those barriers?
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. And I would think that everybody wants to protect girls who are being trafficked Mhmm. And coerced. So having some sort of laws or rules in place where young girls, 14
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm.
Megan Hinojos:Are asked some important questions like, hey, are you being trafficked?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Hinojos:Is this are you were you brought across state lines against your will? Or do you who is abused? Like, why got you pregnant? You know, these are kind of important questions in order to protect those young girls.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, in bioethics we talk about, you know, the necessary conditions for consent. For even to say that a 14 year old can consent to any medical procedure is really a huge stretch and and goes against the medical standard and the conversation of bioethics that has developed over the last forty years. So it's really it's a really wild kind of position that they're taking.
Dr. John Seago:But I think it's I think it's a very important point. And I will say that this is a good place to talk to your you know, our Democrat leaders about and our our representatives about because, you know, even in Texas, we have had very outspoken Democrats that would give speeches on the floor against my bills, but when I would talk to them in person, I actually heard stories that they talked family members out of an abortion.
Speaker 3:Oh,
Dr. John Seago:wow. Because they knew it would not be best for them. Mhmm. That it wouldn't lead to the kind of life they want to live. Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:And so, I I do think there is a soft spot whenever it comes to minors and when it comes to this, even though they feel like because of the pressure from their caucus, they have to hold the line.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:Whenever you actually engage them, especially on something as sensitive as how do we protect minors, you will start to see that kind of shield crack a little bit, and to them to really engage the issue at its heart, not just at the talking political talking points.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. And the abortion pill has been a huge conversation lately as well. I think the production and distribution has As after Roe was overturned, the pill has become a lot more ubiquitous across state lines. Right. And just, can you talk about the dangers of the pill and what you guys have been seeing in trends?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. I mean, this is the biggest threat to Texas women right now, and women in pro life states, is that, you know, whenever you and I look at the map, we see, you know, blue states and red states. But whenever, you know, groups like aid access and plan c pills look at the map, they don't see those colors. They just see business. They just see dollar signs Yes.
Dr. John Seago:You know, in every state is that these are, you know, potential customers. And so, you know, the the largest group is Aid Access. They're a global syndicate. They're a global group that is promoting abortion pills. And it's a radical group that is sending abortion pills all over the world.
Dr. John Seago:But after Roe, well leading up to Roe, they really targeted Texas and pro life states.
Megan Hinojos:Interesting.
Dr. John Seago:And saying, these, you know, let these are markets to flood with advertising, you know, so if you go to a college campus in Texas, you'll see stickers up on the wall with QR codes of like, do you wanna be unpregnant? And you scan that code and it goes to one of their websites. You can put in your, you know, your your, card information and have the pills at your dorm room in three days. Wow. I mean, that that's just the the nature of it.
Dr. John Seago:And so the conservative estimates by peer reviewed journals is 19,000 orders of abortion pills every year. There are other sources out there that that show a lot more up into the 30 thousands per year just in Texas. And so this is a huge thing, but this is really it's illegal, it's already illegal, it's a state jail felony.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:They don't care. They're doing it with partnership of doctors in New York and California Mhmm. Other states and those states have passed shield laws
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:Saying, we will protect our doctors to break Texas law. Oh, wow. So we actually don't just wanna make abortion legal in California and New York, we wanna actually create a shield for their illegal activity, the doctors and the activists that are performing these in our states. So we wanna protect doctor Carpenter up in New York who is mailing abortion pills into Texas and is working with aid access to promote abortion pills in Texas. And when Texas comes knocking saying, hey, you're breaking our law, which we have done
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:Criminal charges have been brought against or civil charges have been brought against her. New York said, no. We will not help you enforce your legitimately passed law. I mean, that's the level of extreme, you know, radicalization we're seeing here. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:And so, so it's it's not legal. It's not safe either. I mean, it is extremely dangerous. If a woman doesn't know that she has an ectopic pregnancy and she takes these pills at home, she thinks her pregnancy has been taken care of. She thinks that she is no longer pregnant.
Dr. John Seago:But an ectopic pregnancy, these pills wouldn't affect an ectopic pregnancy of a baby growing, you know, in an abnormal spot, a very dangerous thing. And I've had a friend of mine almost passed away because of an untreated ectopic pregnancy. And that's essentially what you're telling these women, is forget about your pregnancy, act as if there's no problem here, you don't need to see any doctors and opening up this opportunity for, you know, an ectopic pregnancy but also we're seeing the complication rates on abortion pills is, you know, one in it's I think it's like one in eleven of the women that order abortion pills have some serious complication that requires them to go to the emergency room. And so, I mean, these extreme these are extremely, you know, horrific and, you know, there's thankfully, there's a lot of great testimony now of women that are sharing their story. Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:You know, Sarah Huff is a we just had her in a hearing a couple of weeks ago in Texas. She shared her story of how, you know, she was told that this, you know, would just be, you know, kind of normal for her and there might be a little discomfort but don't worry about it.
Megan Hinojos:Happy period.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, and she tells the story how it was excruciating and she thought she was dying and she ended up having serious complications and her Christian neighbor took her to the emergency room because the the clinic that gave her the pills wouldn't even answer her call. And so, you know, it's extremely dangerous. There's a lot of stories of women who have had these pills and what they've faced out there.
Dr. John Seago:It's absolutely horrific and we wouldn't allow in the medical field this low level of safety and safety standards for diabetes, any other, you know, for a heart condition, for any other condition. We don't allow randos on the internet to send you medical, you know medicine Yes. And say, hey, if you have any complications just go to your ER.
Megan Hinojos:Without ever seeing a doctor in person, nothing.
Dr. John Seago:It's it's absolutely bizarre. But again, the radical mindset is way, you know, for the goal of promoting abortion, no questions asked. Yep. We will waive how we do medicine, how we do telemedicine, you know, how we treat women generally, and how we treat pregnancy. Right?
Dr. John Seago:Absolutely. And and so it's just very it's it's very dangerous. In Texas, you know, again, it's a big it's a big issue. On these on travel and on abortion pills, there's no silver bullets. Right?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. It's not as if we know what the law is. It's just hard to pass. No. We really don't know what the policy solution is.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. It's it's a very difficult thing. We're trying in Texas. We have a lot of ideas of what we can do Mhmm. To fight back against this very dangerous practice.
Dr. John Seago:But, you know, I I would be lying if I said like, we found the solution. We're still trying to fight this global syndicate that doesn't care about the law, they don't care about women's safety, they want to promote abortion at any cost. And they're they're pretty successful at it right now.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Absolutely. Pivoting a little bit, I know you're passionate about men having a bigger voice in the abortion conversation. Can you talk a little bit about how men are also affected by abortion?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So this is an issue that we have. There's a lot of great ministries around the country that have kind of noticed that men are being kind of left out of this discussion, but they you know, the the post abortion, you know, regret, the post abortion trauma and mental health issues that pop up for a woman who had an abortion in her past. Yeah. I think it is unique, uniquely powerful for the woman
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:Because of her motherhood, because of her connection, because of her involvement in what led up to that abortion. Mhmm. But there is also a factor, you know, a kind of element of that, is part of these men's stories as well.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:And so when you see, you know, we've heard stories of men who, you know, felt like they were completely shut out of the conversation. Their, you know, their their wives, their girlfriends had abortions without them even knowing it and then told them later. There are, you know, stories of men who have done everything they can to the point of getting arrested, you know, at the clinic. Wow. Trying to stop the procedure.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And felt like, still feel like it was their fault, like they should have done more, they should have shown more support, they should have, you know, what should I have done to protect my my child and to protect this woman, you know, who was convinced it was in her best interest. And so, you know, we see that there are long term mental health, you know, negative outcomes for men who have been involved. They have a higher a higher likelihood of alcoholism and addiction. They have higher instances of suicidal ideation.
Dr. John Seago:And so, you know, across the board, you know, involved in this from the woman's side or from the men's men's side increases all of these risk factors. But men are systematically shut out of the conversation because this is a woman's right. Mhmm. And you know, you go back to like Planned Parenthood versus Casey, and this has just kind of been the story legally as well. Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:So you go back to Planned Parenthood versus Casey, the Supreme Court said that states could adopt, you know, common sense regulations to protect women like informed consent, a twenty four hour waiting period, parental involvement. The Supreme Court said that is all good. States can do that, it's in their interest, it's a it's a state interest for them to promote those. The only thing that pro life states were doing that the Supreme Court said they couldn't do is spousal notification. Where if a married woman was seeking an abortion, she would have to notify, not even get consent, but notify her husband.
Dr. John Seago:That was the only thing the Supreme Court saw that states were trying at the time in the, you know, early nineties Mhmm. That they said that's not allowed. And that is just kind of the evidence of this, you know, this theory and this tradition of men don't have standing in this debate legally Mhmm. And culturally, they definitely don't have a voice Absolutely. And they shouldn't have a voice.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And because it affects the woman more profoundly. Mhmm. And we're not arguing, it doesn't affect women It more does. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:However, it is really, I think, and it has been a detrimental kind of maneuver to cut men out of the debate. And to cut them. And so, you even think about our pro life legislators, men legislators who are not as loud, are not as persistent, are not as bold as they should be in this fight because they have strategically been removed from the cultural conversation. Yes. And I think that's a very I I that's really shaped the debate.
Dr. John Seago:And so we gotta push back on this. It you know, the way I explain it to my liberal neighbors in Austin is I say, you know, abortion is an act of injustice. Mhmm. It is a bigger, stronger party using violence to cause the death of a smaller, weaker party. Yes.
Dr. John Seago:In any other context, we would say that is an act of injustice and no matter who you are, where were you born, you know, what your skin color is, you should be able to speak against that injustice. Mhmm. Right?
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Dr. John Seago:That's how we see abortion. Yeah. Is if you're a human being, you have stake in this fight.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Absolutely. If men were to get in the debate more and to really stand up and talk about it and just have a bigger role, what kind of difference do you think that might make? Just in the movement as a whole.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. No. I I I think this is just goes to our biggest challenge in your state and in my state is apathy. I mean, is is we just have from our political leaders that are tied to their, you know, survey data or tied to their polling data, You know, I think if we had, you know if we kind of were able to have these bold advocates no matter, you know, what their life experience is Mhmm. No matter who they are, then we would be able to overcome apathy more easily.
Dr. John Seago:But that's our biggest challenge right now. I mean, for you and for me. It's it's it's if we're going to be bold, if we're gonna protect more lives, if we're gonna create a society that is accepting of mother and child Mhmm. We need a lot of boldness and innovation. We need more players.
Dr. John Seago:We need need more people at the table to help us brainstorm. And, you know, I have so many Republicans that will vote with me when the bill is to the floor. Mhmm. You know? Well, by the time it gets to the floor, that means the speaker knows it's already gonna pass.
Dr. John Seago:Right? So it's like, well, thanks for nothing. You know? Yeah. And I always say like, you know, yes, I'll I'll take your vote, but I, you know, we we don't have their heart.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. So, you know, I think if if that dynamic was different and everyone felt this as deeply as you and I do, as some of the, you know, leaders that we know have have poured their life into this movement, then yeah, I think that would really change change a lot of our institutions, you know, change our capital, change our courts Mhmm. But also change the culture.
Megan Hinojos:Change the culture. Absolutely. What do you consider to be the strongest pro choice argument that you hear? And how do you think that pro life advocates should respond to it?
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a great question. I was asked something similar last earlier this week.
Dr. John Seago:So I I I've already thought about this. But yeah. No. So, I mean, I'm a philosophy guy. I'm an ethics guy.
Dr. John Seago:Mhmm. And I think the strongest argument that they have is that kind of what Ruth Bader Ginsburg was trying to was was trying to reshape Roe. You know, Justice Ginsburg was very critical of Roe and how it was written and the legal foundations of it, and she was trying to restructure some of these cases into a social paradigm Mhmm. Into a social argument, and I think that's really the strongest argument in the court as well as in just kind of talking, you know, in with our neighbors, is that women need abortion to be competitive in the academy, you know, in their education, to be competitive in the workplace, you know, to have the same opportunities that that I do. You know, the reality is that, you know, someone who's my age, who a woman who's my age, you know, if we were in the same fields, we were in the same jobs, you know, she was at a disadvantage if her career and opportunities were interrupted by pregnancies.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:You know, and we see this like at Texas Ride to Life, we have this great, you know, this great problem of fantastic women leaders, right, you know, kind of Mhmm. Kind of moving up in our organization, becoming critical to our mission and then they get called home, you know. They have a they have a child and, you know, they take off time and then they come back and then they realize, you know what? This is a better job. Being a mom is better than, you know, working with a bunch of clowns in the capital.
Dr. John Seago:Oh, yeah. And so we've seen that problem a lot. It's a good problem to have. Right? I can't I can't argue with them.
Dr. John Seago:But when that comes into this debate Mhmm. It's looks like men have an advantage socially whenever it comes to career and to education. Yeah. And so, I think that's their strongest argument. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:Is that in that case, we need to create something. We need to try to level the playing field and allow, you know, women not to be pregnant when they are pregnant. Right? I think that's their strongest argument. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:I don't think it's a winning argument. No. Okay. I don't think it it seems. I think it does though.
Dr. John Seago:It does highlight that we need to look at these things and we need to build culture accordingly. Right? We need to reshape our higher ed institutions. And so we have a conversation in Texas for the last couple of years, four years, and it's a hard one. But is to make sure that women cannot be penalized for taking off a couple of semesters to have a baby.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. You know, so certain scholarships, certain programs, you know, access to higher ed would be limited to her if she ended up deciding to take a semester or two off or or three Yeah. To have a child and to to, you know, to take care of her child. You know, also so we need to get rid of that. That's a that's a an anti life incentive
Speaker 3:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:Right, for that woman. If she's thinking like, okay, I can finish this honors program, I can finish this fast track I'm on to, you know, get to my masters or to my, you know, higher ed degree. Or I can be a mom, you know, like, why? Why are we shaping education to be an either or situation? So we've been having this conversation.
Dr. John Seago:It's we we could have strong armed a bill that would just affect our public institutions and we decided not to do that. We're having trying to have a bigger conversation on what we can do and we've got a lot of great chancellors in Texas that are having this debate of how do we help pregnant women finish their degree, still compete in the field. Mhmm. But then also employment, childcare, you know, maternal leave, you know, these types of policies really are not the types of policies conservatives want to talk about Mhmm. Because it sounds like big government.
Dr. John Seago:It sounds like the government's coming into the private space and telling companies how to run. I think we need to zoom out a little bit. It's actually very conservative Yes. Because we're trying to address this, you know, fundamentally human problem. Yeah.
Dr. John Seago:And or situation, I shouldn't probably shouldn't call it problem. But it's it's being presented as a problem. Yeah. And so, you know, how do we do that? And so in Texas, we're trying a couple of innovative things on childcare that are, you know, not the nanny state, are not big government.
Dr. John Seago:You know, we're trying a couple of things, but I I definitely think our friends over at the ethics and public policy council up in DC are are kind of partners with us on this, like, trying to come up with pro family, pro life solutions that we can promote to build a culture that addresses this. And I and I think that's kinda getting at their their strongest argument of social equality. I would also say that this argument assumes that for a way the way for a woman to be a successful woman is to be like a man.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Dr. John Seago:And and I think that's just like a fundamentally that's how the argument has been shaped. Mhmm. And when I read justice Ginsburg's arguments or literature on this, it's like, so you're saying the best woman, you couldn't tell she was a woman. Right? She's she doesn't have maternal instincts.
Dr. John Seago:She doesn't have a calling in the home, you know, in addition. And, you know, it's it's not an either or. But it's like, okay. I think we're missing something if we have to deny the difference between men and women and the strengths that they both have. So, yeah, I I think that's a really important one.
Dr. John Seago:So I I don't think it's a winning argument. I don't think it's one we can't overcome. But to be intellectually honest, think that's a really, you know, important issue that puts more of a burden on you and me Yes. And conservatives of what do we do about these apparent dilemmas.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely to change the culture and yeah, just to provide a culture where women and children can thrive. Yeah. And yeah, not be held back. We will link your website in the comments below for anyone Yeah. Who is interested in learning more about you guys and what you guys do, But, thank you so much John for coming on The Chile Wire.
Dr. John Seago:Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for having me and, know, consider us a partner. We Yes, Texas is very, you know, big headed. We're very egocentric.
Dr. John Seago:We we think, you know, we are the center of the universe. However, we wanna be a good partner. Yes. We wanna be a good neighbor and help those around us, especially when we look at some of these dilemmas that, you know, these dilemmas are not gonna be solved by one state alone. It is gonna take cooperation of those that value life.
Dr. John Seago:How do we rebuild our culture to value life? How do we protect the most vulnerable amongst us? And so we are honored to be in that fight with you guys.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And that is all for today's episode. Thank you.
Dr. John Seago:Hi.