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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Hey, guys. Welcome back to Sandals Church. The debrief. Super excited to have you guys today. I have a special guest.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So you just told me preshow, you've been at Sandals since 1999.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right. That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That's crazy.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So when
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I met him, he was just Josh. Now he's doctor Josh Knab, and so he's super powerful and important, and he's gonna psycho analyze me today.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So it's a miracle that you're a therapist and you still attend Sandals Church.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right. Can mind read. I could do all that kind of stuff. So
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So you've been married to your wife for how many years?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Seventeen years going on I
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:did your wedding, and you asked me if I remember it, and I do. I even remember what you wore. That's right. I mean, some of it. I didn't remember the red tie.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:But, yeah, long time ago, and you're a biological twin, which I remember.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:right. What do you call it? Identical. That's right. Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So I've known him a long time, and so now you're a professor of what?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Professor of psychology at California Baptist University. So I wear you know, I have a few fancy titles. So I Yeah. I basically am the division dean for psychology. So all the psychology programs, and then I also direct the doctor of psychology program to prepare psychologists.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That's fantastic. Did you do your undergrad at CBU?
Dr. Josh Knabb:No. Okay. University of Redlands, and then my doctorate at Azusa Pacific University.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay. Mhmm. I I have a memory of you going to Texas. Is that a real memory? Pennsylvania.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right. Close. Somewhere outside
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:of California. I I knew you left, but I thought for for some reason, I thought it was Texas. Uh-huh. Okay. So what made you get into psychology?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I wanna see what your answer is.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. So a few things. I think early on growing up, I was in a conservative Christian home. My parents were first generation Christians. I grew up with a biblical worldview.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But at 12 years old, my dad ended up having a midlife crisis. He ended up having an affair, and that left me really in a tailspin for about a ten year period of time. He ended up divorcing my mom, marrying somebody else. You know, long story short, he ended up passing away of cancer when I was in my mid twenties. And so early on in life, I experienced tremendous psychological suffering.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. And I was left really scrambling trying to figure out this world, my place in it, and then to deal with what eventually became anxiety, worry, some depression, shame. So I had a lot of experiences early on, and I ended up becoming what you might call or actually what Henry Nouwen, the the Catholic spiritual writer, calls a wounded healer. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Someone who had absolutely. So somebody who early on had tremendous psychological pain. And and the challenge for me and I think looking back, it was God's providence. But the challenge for me was that early on in the church, for whatever reason, I I did not have that support that I needed. Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:My parents stopped going to church.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Oh, they stopped?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. I was in youth ministry for a little bit, like like, middle school, and then I really didn't go to church. And so I didn't get the support I needed in the church. I ended up having about a ten year prodigal period of time where I just fell away, and, really, I avoided. I avoided my pain.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I avoided God. At times, I, you know, lamented to God periodically, but but overall, I was far from God, and I didn't get the help I needed in the church.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so I ended up going into therapy when my dad passed away and recognizing the benefits of it with a Christian therapist, and that really led to me really wanting to, within the church, within the walls of the church, help people and Yeah. Spiritually. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Your wife was a flight attendant. Mhmm. And what were you when I first met you? What would you have
Dr. Josh Knabb:You know, I was at various jobs. I let's see. Early in my early twenties, I worked for a a integrated health care organization Okay. But I was just kinda making ends meet, getting to school. In my mid twenties, that's where I really decided to go back to school and and become a psychologist.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Good for you. Super proud of you and just what you've done. So you started your own podcast, I didn't even know this Mhmm. A couple years ago called The Christian Psychologist.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm. What are you trying to accomplish with that show? I love
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. So The Christian Psychologist one of the things that I I've noticed is oftentimes, the church kinda outsources mental health Yeah. To secular psychologists, secular therapists. There's a whole body of literature on secular psychology, and and I interact with that literature. I'm a a, you know, huge proponent of psychological science when it's done well.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I think it's God's common grace that God even extends grace to secular communities. We can learn from Yeah. From those communities. But I think a lot of the outsourcing doesn't need to happen. We, as Christians, have our own rich heritage of not only scripture Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But but writers, you know, theologians, philosophers. I mean, prior to, you know, the formal founding of psychology about a hundred and fifty years ago, it was housed in philosophy and theology, and you have this rich tradition. And so what I'm trying to do with the podcast is, one, equip everybody from pastors to congregants to better understand their mental health Yeah. But also to recognize that we have a rich heritage to draw from in our own tradition Yeah. You know, broadly defined.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. You know, whether it's Christian meditative and contemplative practices or other insights Mhmm. Psychological insights. So wanting to bridge that gap by exploring what's what's newer in secular psychology, but then to say, what's a Christian equivalent for Christians to stay within our own proverbial home and not have to go down the road to the secular neighbor's house kind of a thing. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Amen. So is your format like this? Are you interviewing somebody? Are you just talking?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:What what's your format for
Dr. Josh Knabb:your podcast? My format is typically I'll introduce a topic, and then in the secular psychology literature, I'll explore it, you know, defining things and and trying to translate things for for the audience, and then I will try to understand a Christian perspective on the topic.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And then I'll end the podcast. Usually, they're about thirty minutes with some kind of practice, a Christian meditative practice, contemplative practice, something housed within the Christian tradition
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:To help people with their mental and spiritual health.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. So we end this podcast. Our audience will just start praying that we stop.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That's how we that's how we end it here. Okay. So I don't even know what this is. What is acceptance and commitment therapy?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. So acceptance and commitment therapy, it's a secular type of therapy, and I've written a faith based based version of it. But it basically it's this idea that the biggest problem psychologically is not the symptoms we experience, whether that's anxiety or depressive or, you know, things like worry or rumination. It's our avoidance of them. Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so oftentimes in life, and we we see this in our in the twenty first century, especially with younger generations, where it's really difficult to to handle psychological pain. So we have all kinds of ways that we anesthetize life Yeah. Right, through drugs and alcohol, pornography, you know, other kinds of avoidance, denial. And so acceptance and commitment therapy is really about being accepting of inner experiences
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Because avoidance doesn't work.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And then committing, the see and act is committing to a value based action and then taking action. So we're guided by values in life or principles for living, not our inner experiences that tend to fluctuate, wax, wane,
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:come and
Dr. Josh Knabb:go, that
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:kind of a thing. I love it. Yeah. So how how were you first exposed to that?
Dr. Josh Knabb:So I remember in graduate school really continuing to grapple with my own I I'm an anxiety sufferer. I'm someone who struggles with recurrent worry. Yeah. You know, early on in life, my dad was moving in and out of the home, and so I started using worry as a way to try to predict and control. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Really, at the end of the day, worry is about trying to create certainty in an uncertain world Yeah. Right, through cognitive efforts. And so I I've had this ongoing battle, really, with early, I would call it a battle, with worry and anxiety. But over time, I recognized it wasn't going away. Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so when I learned about ACT, it's it's pronounced ACT, not a c t, ACT in graduate school, it just felt like home. The founder of ACT, Steve Hayes, he's got a TED Talk that's that's widely watched, and he talks about his own experience with panic and how he tried everything he could to avoid panic, and eventually, he had to really accept the reality that he needed to face it, and it wasn't And going I had a similar experience with my anxiety. I can remember being in my own therapy and talking about anxiety and essentially wanting my therapist to help me get rid of it.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And my therapist leaned in. I still remember this. This was in graduate school. I was probably in my mid twenties. And he said, what if your anxiety is telling you something?
Dr. Josh Knabb:And that was a huge shift for me. Yeah. This idea that even something that we don't want, like anxiety, can be, and and this is something I've been writing about as a God given signal. Are our inner experiences, our emotions, everything from sadness to anger to fear to anxiety, even guilt and shame, are they God given signals? Not something we need to avoid, but something we need to understand and accept and be with with compassion and ask how God is active and present and moving in and through these experiences, not trying to avoid.
Dr. Josh Knabb:After all, avoidance is and we we know that avoidance is linked to all kinds of disorders. Makes things worse. Right? Yeah. So with panic, for example, really, panic disorder, some would say panic disorder is a panic attack plus an unwillingness to have a panic attack.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? Mhmm. So I end up getting to a point where I experience agoraphobia on top of panic, which is I don't wanna go outside. I don't wanna go to Walmart because I had a panic attack at Walmart, and now I'm gonna be embarrassed if I have another one. But the walls start closing in.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. And Steve Hayes, in his TED Talk, he talks about how he even had a panic attack in his sleep. So he couldn't even avoid panic in his own house in Yeah. What's supposed to be sleep, something that's relaxing and comforting. My experience was similar in that when I started to really acknowledge that my worry wasn't going away, my anxiety wasn't going away.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But with compassion and and asking God to be with me in it, I can ask God, what are you doing in and through this experience?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:You know, Act talks about a lot of metaphors. One would be what's called the two sided coin metaphor. The idea is that that psychological pain or painful emotions are on one side of the coin, but on the other side is our values. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So we can't have one without the other. Where there is pain, there is what reveals our value. So what does anxiety possibly reveal? That we care about things, that we wanna get things right, that coming to this podcast today, I'm a little anxious because I wanna do a good job, and I wanna Yeah. Have a clear message and to help the body of Christ.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so sadness reveals a loss and and that that what we've lost is important, and we need to grieve that loss and not impulsively try to replace it quickly, but to then slowly and and, intent with intentionality replace what was lost. So so act is a way of basically saying we need to be accepting of these inner experiences that are important, they're a part of us, but they they're not all of us. Mhmm. And that it's actually our values, these behavioral principles for living that should guide life.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Man, that's incredible. So Tammy and I, we just spent eighteen months in therapy. She did a sabbatical, for those who are just joining the show, that's my wife. And we did what's called attachment theory, are you So familiar with how does that differ from maybe what you did?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Because I what what you're saying sounds great. Yeah. That's not the approach our therapist
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right. These
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So are I'm a dismissive avoidant. Yeah. You know? So my theory is run from it Yes. And go fast
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And make a difference. Yes. So and that was really, I think, eye opening to me, like, oh my gosh, this is what I do. Yeah. But so much of what you're saying is what I think is missing from so much psychology.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm. So much psychology, I'm like, do you remember the old joke? Oh, what's his name in the seventies? He's like, stop it.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. Stop it. Like That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So a lot of psychology has lost the confronting of the obvious truth. Yeah. It's just carrying and, you know, kind of like week after week, we just keep talking about your problems, but we're not what you're saying is, what is it, to accept it and then make a commitment to change it. It's just this regurgitation of feelings that sounds fantastic.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, it's really helped me in my own life, and it's helped a lot of the clients that I've worked with. Yeah. This idea that my another metaphor would be the passengers on the bus.
Dr. Josh Knabb:This is a classic act metaphor. It's this idea that I I'm a bus driver, and I have a route. My route is my values. I I wanna live out my values. But the problem is I have passengers get off and on the bus.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Right? And some of them are actually unruly. Right? And so I I have a decision to make.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I can constantly stop the bus, turn around and yell at the passage passengers on the bus, or I can continue to drive the bus recognizing that no matter how many passengers I yell at or kick off, more are gonna get back on. So how can I
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That is so
Dr. Josh Knabb:good? Make more Yeah. Room for these inner experiences in order to live now, the faith based version that I wrote on Act is really following Jesus in the midst of psychological pain. Yeah. So we follow and worship a suffering servant.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. We're we're we're not guaranteed that that God is gonna take away our pain, but, you know, often in scripture, pain is is something that can be refining and redemptive. I mean, the the greatest act in human history, you know, the the atonement was was filled with psychological pain. And so there can be purpose in the midst of pain. And so how can we, from an act perspective, pivot from fear to love or or pain to purpose so that we can actually follow Christ in the midst of pain or or walking through pain, not trying to walk around it?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Because the tragedy is the more we try to avoid pain, we're on the sidelines of life, to use a sports metaphor, and we're tragically not in the game, and then life passes us by. It's almost as if Jesus is, you know, saying on the shore of the Sea Of Galilee, come follow me, and and and me, I'm saying, hold on a second. Let me get this worry wrapped up or let me get this anxiety fixed. The reality is I'm still gonna have it, but can I relate to it with more compassion and invite God to be with me in in it? So, yeah, it's it's accepting the inner world, recognizing that our pain is not gonna go away in order to commit to some principles for living.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I think for Christians, it's it's virtues if we look at the fruit of the spirit or or Jesus' teachings in order to guide life, not my inner experiences.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. So my story is very much different than yours. I didn't grow up with anxiety. I grew up feeling very safe. And then I went into ministry Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And started having anxiety. And I wouldn't have defined it as that. So I didn't know what it was. Yeah. But I'd say the wheels started to come off in my mid thirties, and it was like, you've known me for a long time.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Like, I'm a very social animal, I like to be out, and I'm like, I don't want to go out, I don't know who's going to be there, and why? Because I don't know who likes me and who doesn't. I don't know who has a positive experience, and now we live in a world where everybody just shares whatever negative feeling they have towards you, it's just like, I don't like you, Josh. Well, thank you. You know?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I mean, our culture's gotten really, really bizarre in terms of social etiquette of what's appropriate to share or not, And so I started feeling just like, you know, I'm gonna go to the grocery store. Who hates me? You know, who's gonna like And I've confronted in the grocery store line. My wife's getting her hair done, literally got the, what do you call it, the aluminum foil tips. And in this instance, it was a woman who we said her son couldn't attend our church anymore because he committed a crime that made him dangerous to be around people in our church.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so I made a hard call, and I just said, this is not the place for your son. And so she attacked my wife, which, you know, she we didn't bring her in the meeting. But and so I started feeling this, and and I mean, it got it got out of control before I could say, this is anxiety. Yeah. Like it was weird how kind of dense I was to my own journey in that.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so and that's what led me on my kind of realist self psychological moment where I'm like, gotta get in therapy because Bible verses are not producing what I need. And it's not there's nothing wrong with the bible. It's a therapist helps you ask better questions. Yeah. And so like I think in our unhealth, what we do is why is God allowing this, and what what if I took your teaching and made a Christian, I would say, well, what is God trying to say through this pain?
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It's speaking. So something's happening, and for me what it was was I had a high value of everyone liking me, and that's not real. Like, I don't care who you are, everyone is not going to like you, and so you have to either embrace that or not. Yeah. And I had to go, okay, I can't I can't be everybody's favorite person.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That's right. Yeah. And so so it was tough. That business is great. I had my personal therapist on the show recently.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:By the way, he came to church this week. Did I tell you guys? So you you wanna feel naked, see your therapist sitting in the audience, and I was just like, oh my gosh. You know, but it was so cool. Mark, we've had him on the show, and he's a fabulous therapist, but his wife was diagnosed with the illness, and they're reading Everyday Miracle together, which how cool is that?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:You're a therapist. I was like, bro, you know everything hideous about me.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And you're still reading my book, and he said, we need a miracle, and they came to church for me to pray over them. And that was full circle. Like, you know, I go to him for healing, right, and the boundaries are very, very clear. Like he runs the show in therapy, and then he comes here and he's like, hey, I need, and it was wild. And you know, just amazing family, great family, and like all of us, like health changes everything like that.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so, but it was cool to have him here. At first, a little scary. Yeah. But cool. I think everyone could use therapy, but what advice would you give to our listeners who are skeptical about going to a therapist?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Because unfortunately, like a lot of our and I don't wanna pick on Calvary Chapel, but a lot of our Calvary Chapel, I mean, they have a very, very anti and and and I think it's lessening. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:But traditionally, they've had a very anti therapy. Like, don't need therapy, you need a Bible verse, and you need to pray more. You know, you don't have marriage problems, put on lipstick. You know, mean, I've heard stuff like that. Like, jeez.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:You know, that's problematic. So what would you say like, had a woman, very important to me, I encouraged her to go to therapy, and she looked at me and said, do you think I'm crazy? Yeah. Like, that was her response. I was like, no, think you're broken like I am.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And, you know, so what would you say?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. I mean, I I try to understand that perspective. Right? Yeah. The the the reluctance.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? I mean, you have pastors, and they they they're in charge of their flock. Right? They don't want and so I think some of that comes from a place of fear of Mhmm. Of kind of, again, outsourcing therapy to secular communities, and there might be a secular worldview, and so, you know, kind of syncretism and and this, like, seeping in of Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Unbiblical kinds of things. So so I try to understand that. Tragically, though, I would say that Christians are often one of the most underserved populations Yeah. As we think about psychological health and and and what's out there and needing therapy. You know, therapy over the years for me, clients come in and they say, help me get rid of something.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. And I think successful therapy, they exit saying, thank you for helping me to relate differently to this
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? And so a therapist is not an advice giver. A therapist should not be pushing a worldview onto a client. A therapist is there. One psychologist, I love this quote, she says, there's no greater bonding agent than the prolonged attempt to make sense together of someone's emotional life.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so to to have someone week in and week out to listen and to lean in Mhmm. And to focus on you and your inner experiences Mhmm. To to to search your inner world, to Mhmm. To open up about the things that are hidden from other people. There I think there's nothing greater than that in my own personal psych psychotherapy as well as someone who's on the other side of the couch working with other people.
Dr. Josh Knabb:If we go back to this idea of experiential avoidance, I think therapy is really about successfully being able to open up about our inner world, about our emotions. And tragically, early on, I think what happens is and this is, you know, it's kinda sorted out in various theories in psychology. But early on, we naturally express our emotions. Right? I mean I mean, if I'm a three year old and I scrape my knee, I'm gonna start crying, and I'm gonna run to a caregiver.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Tragically, sometimes caregivers aren't there, but if I do have one, that's what's gonna happen. Over time, though, what happens is we end up getting messages saying, don't feel that way. Right? And this is why I think the sandals, really, message of being real is so important.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But the three year old turns into the six year old, turns into the nine year old, turns into the teenager who basically begins to wall off their emotional world because of a fear of being shamed for it or rejected for it, ostracized for it, and so what some would call it the unconscious. Right? So so there's this world beyond conscious awareness that we kind of wall off because it's intolerable to the people around us, and we need to maintain a connection to them. So we end up getting this adversarial relationship with our emotions. And I think in the Christian church, there's no exception.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? We don't know oftentimes to what to do with our emotions. Right? Yeah. And so I think therapy is a place to open up about our inner experiences, to bring it out into the open, and so that we can make conscious decisions about how we wanna live life Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And sort it out. And and the reality is we don't have somebody oftentimes who's gonna sit for fifty minutes a week and listen to our without jumping in with, well, that reminds me of the time or that remind right? People are not good at listening.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so a therapist is gonna create space to listen. Interestingly, if I link it to the Christian tradition, going all the way back to, like, the early desert Christians. Right? Yeah. You know, third to sixth centuries Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:They rejected, you know, institutional Christianity, Constantine, etcetera. So as evangelicals, we can we can kind of reject the idea of withdrawing. But they had a famous saying, you know, in their monastic cell, which was a a room they lived in, maybe in a cave, etcetera. They would say, go back to your cell or don't flee your cell. And so the idea was you need to face your inner world.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Don't fear. And so I love that saying. There's such wisdom in that. I think twenty first century therapy room is is our cell. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Not not a prison cell, but it's a place to face our inner world like these early desert Christians did because, you know, as they would say, the sayings of the Desert Fathers and Mothers, they'd say that, you know, wherever you go, your problems will be there. Yeah. Oh, you know, experience town, there's gonna so I have to learn to face my inner experiences. So to kinda answer your question, I think that therapy is a place to face our inner world. There's so much pain in life.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? Living in a fallen, broken world, and it's a way to to bring our emotions into awareness and to essentially make peace with them instead of continuing to have this adversarial relationship with them.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. I love it. Man, it's so good. I can hear you listen to him all day. Feel like I'm on free therapy.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Alright. We're gonna jump into some some great, great questions. This is from Lisa from Cedar Park. Cedar Pines Park? Cedar Pines, I think.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay, Cedar Pines Park. Sorry, Lisa, I don't know where that is. So my sister struggles with mental health growing up as a sibling of someone with mental health issues that impacted me in ways that are difficult to put words into. I feel guilty that I don't want to be in a relationship with her anymore. I don't know how to be around her and give her grace without feeling controlled and hopeless.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Lisa, thank you for this question. How do I give her grace and love her while setting up boundaries to protect myself? Man, that is a welcome to the debrief.
Dr. Josh Knabb:This is a tough Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Tough question. And and again, Lisa, we don't know everything about this story, so we're gonna do the best we can with the words that you've given us. What would you say to that? Because that's that's a tough experience.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. I mean, I I would start off by saying that that's really, really tough.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That that we all have maybe at least one person or more in our life who are struggling with mental health related issues, whether that's depression or anxiety or, you know, anger related issues or addictions. And so it's a tough, tough thing, and and it can bring up a lot of different feelings, feelings of powerlessness and feeling burned out, you know, if it's somebody we're caring for. And so I just starting off to say that I think that it's a really tough situation. Yeah. It's interesting in the clinical psychology kind of literature, there's a newer term that's used a lot, and I think we have a equivalent term in our Christian tradition.
Dr. Josh Knabb:It's it's called compassion. Yeah. And so, you know, for for so long, there was this whole self esteem movement, and I think even secular psychologists are now kind of rejecting that Yeah. And saying self esteem has led to all kinds of challenges. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:They've kind of replaced that with self compassion. So what is compassion? It's being moved by suffering and responsive to suffering. Okay. That can be our own suffering.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So, oh, there's worry and anxiety as a worry and, you know, suffer, anxiety sufferer. Or there's, wow, I'm feeling really frustrated with this person. So so to have compassion for ourselves
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And then to have compassion for this other person is, I think, really important so we don't get resentful and burned out. Now, that's easier said than done, but there's a lot of resources out there to to be able to do that given that it can be so challenging to to deal with somebody who I also think about I'm a huge fan of, like, New Testament words. So so the Greek word in in the New Testament, right? Patience.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I love that word that really is divine patience. It's this idea that we need to have be long tempered with people or Yeah. Patient with people because of the patience that God has given And so I think that we as we get burned out, as we really maybe recognize resentment building, we have to find ways through Christian disciplines, through different practices Mhmm. To be able to have patience for people in the midst of their own suffering, given that it's widespread. It's it's, you know, everywhere.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So that would probably be Yeah. How I'd start off.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. That's great. Lisa, what I would just say is I think all of us, there's a part of our childhood that's broken that we wanna escape from.
Scott Schutte:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so, like, if you're trying to get away from a sibling with mental health issues, I would imagine if your parents are still around, they're still very much involved in this situation, and so their life hasn't Parents don't escape children when they have mental illness, and that's, you know, I always see parents like with Down syndrome or something, like that's a lifelong commitment. Like, you're raising this person until you die. Like, so I just appreciate, I'm just thinking about that. Was in the airport in Denver and saw a Sandals Church member with their special needs daughter, and I just thought, okay, like this kid's never moving out.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I think you need to have compassion for your parents, because they're and I don't wanna use the word trapped, but I don't know don't know another word. I mean, that's their life as it is, and so unless they just completely disconnect and go like, I don't have this child anymore. And so you have to reoccur. And so I think that's the issue with parents is what does boundaries look like for them, and then what do boundaries look like for you? And just understanding that your experience is different, although shared.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Parents feel one way, you feel another way. You know? And so a lot of times when I've seen, you know, kids in our church where they have a sibling with cancer, you know, or some terrible disease or something, right? Parents naturally, all of the affection and attention goes to the kid that's hurting the most. So kids, you know, they feel left out and lost and confused and angry, and And parents are doing the best they can.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So you know, so I think there's a lot here to unpack, not with your parents first, but with a therapist, so that your words don't sound judgmental, and because a lot of times parents are just doing the best they can. So I would just say I would go to a therapist and work through that, a Christian therapist, because we, you know, you have an obligation as a Christian sibling to love and care for and be there. And I don't know what the illness is. I mean, exception would be is are they dangerous? Because sometimes mental health, you know, they can be violent, and I've seen this, and that's a whole different thing.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So figure out like with your therapist, what has the person been labeled with, and how can you work through that and process your own stuff, and then maybe reengage your family. Because I do think the scripture's clear. It says that we are to carry one another's burdens. And so a burden is something we don't want. You don't want it, I don't want it, but if you have it, I'm supposed to help you carry that.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:But then as Christians, we can get tweaked and get dysfunctional and codependent, and then all I'm doing is carry for everyone's burdens, and I'm not paying attention to myself. So I don't know where you are in this, Lisa, but here's your last question. How do I give her grace and love while setting up boundaries to protect myself? I would take that sentence to my therapist and say, here's what I wanna do. So let me just commend you.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It sounds like you really care for your sister. Yeah. And you have, I don't know if I'm saying, yeah, no, his sister. And you have some real hurt, and both of those feelings and emotions are okay, we can be conflicted in how we feel. And you know, sometimes I love my wife, and sometimes I'm like, I'm not sure, you know, how I'm feeling right now in this moment.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And and and those are true feelings. But as a Christian, I I'm committed to loving her despite the emotions, and so I stay in there in that regardless of how I feel. But talk to a therapist, process that, and work through that. I don't know what you would say, but that last sentence, how do I give her grace and love her while setting up boundaries? I mean, I think that's the golden sentence in Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:What would you say
Dr. Josh Knabb:to that? I mean, there's always a tough balance in family life between focusing on the self and focusing on others. Right? And and and that balancing act is so, so, so important. And and it can be confusing, especially when you have somebody, as you said, in the family that that has more needs and and and maybe is is taking a lot of the resources in the family.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so it can be challenging. So, yeah, I mean, sorting that out in therapy is huge. Being able to have someone to to listen to you as you sort it out is is gonna be absolutely important. But we all have to battle with that. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:We all have to struggle. So we're right there with with this person and the question of of how do I where do I end and the other person begins? And so I think it's a it's a challenging situation, but one that absolutely can be sorted out in therapy and Mhmm. But no easy answer there.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. I I think it's important if you're gonna see a therapist for you as the patient to outline your moral values.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So like, if I'm going to therapy with my wife, I want the therapist to know that I believe that divorce is off the table. So I want them to know that here is my, here's the spiritual value that I'm bringing, and I don't want you to change my value, I want you to help me live it out in a way that's healthy. So we gotta be really, really careful. Therapists aren't pastors, and pastors aren't therapists. I'm telling my staff all the time, you're not a therapist.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So don't act like I mean, you are, but like if you're a pastor. But because we can get confused. And when we step out of our lane, I mean, that's the reason we have experts in our field. And so, you know, just let your therapist know, look, I'm not looking for theological clarity. I'm I'm looking for clarity on on how to live out what I already theologically believe.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I mean, unless, you know, you got something that's off, and that and that could happen. But even then, I would think that a good therapist would ask questions and not make statements. Right. That's not Christian. You know, like, would would want that.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so help me figure this out. I feel as a Christian woman bound to my sister, and I wanna care for her, but I feel abused, neglected, hurt, like, whatever. Help me make sense of this and unpack these feelings so I can be a Christian sister to her, even though I may need to do this, you know, from afar. There are people in my life I've just had to say, look, we're not meeting anymore, and I'm not gonna meet with you, and they go to our church
Dr. Josh Knabb:because
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:they're so abusive to me, and it's just, that's just the way it is. It's like, look, you know, that's the beauty of 14 campuses. I've encouraged people like, you need to go to another campus, because I don't wanna be preaching looking at your face. Yeah. Because we're just, we're not okay right now.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And and that's a tough boundary. So I'm called to love you. We have a multi site campus, I can love you at another location. Yeah. And that's okay.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And you guys are laughing, but I've actually said that because people are, you know, Sandals is open to everyone, but I don't need to look at the faces that hate me while I'm trying to communicate truth, because I'm a human
Dr. Josh Knabb:being. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:You know? Like you imagine you're teaching class and some kids just double burden you the Yeah. Whole Like you're gonna be a little distracted, and it affects the whole class. And so, you know, I mean, I've had people mad dog me on the front row at a funeral. And I'm like, like, what I'm trying to carry emotions.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Like, this is not the place for you to throw, you know, your rotten fruit at me and so. Yeah. Okay. This is from Gavin from Highland. Do your sins cause nightmares?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Wow. These past nights, I've been having nightmares about my greatest regrets, now wondering, is it God or the devil or am I beating myself up? I know very little about dreams.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I don't know what you know. So
Dr. Josh Knabb:Well, there's there's one theory that would suggest that dreams are a way for kind of the unconscious to come out. Right? Okay. And so there's there's a huge emphasis on, like, dream interpretation. Now, that that's that's not my emphasis, but I would say that would be one, you know, area in psychology typically called psychoanalysis.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? This idea that we can analyze dreams because it's a way to get access to the unconscious because we're so defended most of the day from that unconscious unconscious conflict, we might say. Yeah. So now I would say we take it with a grain of salt because we cannot know for sure, right, exactly what that means. I mean, we know in scripture, God reveals himself to us through dreams.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. But we're also fallen. And so I I think we we wanna just be careful about placing too much weight on a specific dream. I would say that what's more impactful is the emotional impact of dreams, like, the next day and beyond. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Because dreams can be random. I mean, dreams can be a way for us to sort things out, and so on and so forth. There are different theories of dreams. But I think the idea would be, what's the emotional impact the next day?
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so that's where something like therapy might be helpful to sort out, I keep having this recurrent dream. Yeah. We can maybe have dreams based on past traumatic experiences. And so do dreams get in the way, emotionally speaking, of being able to live out my values or to to, you know, serve in church or to be a good spouse? Or I so would say that's probably more of the impact is what role do dreams play in in some way, shape, or form in pairing daily life?
Dr. Josh Knabb:If so, then I need to kind of sort that out to recognize the emotional impact.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. I don't have I don't have dreams about things I've done in the past. Like, probably my worst nightmare is and I tell my wife this all the time. I I never get the fun part of the dream. It's I never I never get to experience adultery in the dream.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It it's always it's happened. Yeah. So it's in in the past, and now my life is blown up.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And it's like, what did I do? And I can't tell you. I'll wake I'll wake up and I'll go, thank God. Like, that was just a dream. But I think for me, Gavin, that's my worst my worst fear is that after preaching to all of you, I would shame my wife, destroy my family, hurt our church.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Like, that's that's that's my greatest nightmare. I would rather have cancer 10 times than put my family, my wife, and our church through that. And unfortunately, you know, I've had a front row seat with other pastors that have gone through this, and you know, it's just horrible. You So for me, you know, I haven't done that, but it is a real concern because, I mean, just this week, you know, or this last month, two pastors that I look up to, they failed, and they're in their sixties. And I'm like, I was hoping this would get Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:You know, better, but apparently, you're still a man as long as you live. So so what I would say, Gavin, is instead of trying to pinpoint, is it God, is it the devil, or am I, I just would deal with the emotion of it and go talk to a therapist. Or, you know, get in a small group with a bunch of guys. Like, therapy isn't the answer for everything. Sometimes we need to do it.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:You know, get with a group of guys, talk about your stress, talk about your pressure. If it's something from the past, talk about it with your pastor. Like, have you confessed it? First John one nine, if we confess our sins to God, listen, as he's faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So okay?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So if so if you've confessed this sin, guess what? It's it's done. You know? And so walk through that with somebody, And a lot of times, you know, Christians, well, I've confessed this to God so many times, and so here's the nugget of Sandals Church. So really what I say is the key to emotional, spiritual health as a Christian is marrying one John one nine and James five sixteen together.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:If you can marry those two verses together, confess your sins to God for He's faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness, confess your sins to one another, this is James, so that we may be whole and healed. So we don't confess to each other to be forgiven. We we we do that to God. But I sit down with you, Josh, and I say, man, I'm battling lust. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So when I look into your eyes, you're you're you're a real person, you're a real man, and I and I need forgiveness for this. Really struggling. I can begin to experience healing. And I know that if I trip up again, I'm gonna come to you again. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And what it does is it personalizes confession. Yeah. And and and confessing your sins to someone is is really the path to healing. It's just saying, hey, here's here's what what I'm feeling, here's what I'm thinking, here's what I did. And, you know, sin's power is in the darkness, for grace's power is in the light.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So I just encourage you to do that. All right, let's jump to Trey in Nampa. Is that a place? It's not a typo. Nampa, N A M P A, Idaho.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Not making fun of you. Just didn't know that was a place. Okay, I'm a successful professional with a hyperactive mind and a thought life, and sometimes I have a hard time focusing when I pray and I try to spend time with God. I was looking at a practice called trans transcendental meditation, TM, claims to be without religious obligation. Rather, it is simply a mind quieting technique.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:How do you think this should be approached? So I had to look this up because I didn't know what it was. What are your thoughts on it?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. So there's a larger conversation, I think, happening all over society about transcendental meditation, about mindfulness meditation. Now there's what's called loving kindness meditation. The many of these practices come from Eastern traditions Yeah. Hinduism, Buddhism.
Dr. Josh Knabb:In clinical psychology, mindfulness is everywhere. So much so that people have jokingly called it mcmindfulness. Right? Because it's now such embedded in k 12 education, and you have meditation rooms in corporations.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And Right.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's been one of my passions in in as a Christian psychologist, this idea that we have our own heritage, that that, you know, for Christians, we don't need to outsource to Eastern practices. So transcendental meditation is really about mantras. Yeah. And and with mantras, you know, there there can be something in the words themselves, the sounds. I would say for Christians, we have to ask the question, what's the telos?
Dr. Josh Knabb:What's the ultimate purpose of these practices? You know, sort of like, just because I can take a this might sound random, but just because I could take a typewriter and go out into a tennis court and hit the ball across the net doesn't mean that a typewriter is meant to play tennis. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so likewise, with these meditative practices, what is the ultimate purpose? What's the design? Mhmm. And I would say for we have our own rich heritage of Christian meditative and contemplative practices to draw from, which I've tried to kind of define and and put into practices in in my various writings, and and I've I've done six Yeah. Empirical studies Oh, wow.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And published those in academic journals on and and so what we found, myself and colleagues, we found that Christian practices work for things like worry, for things like anxiety, for things like trauma. Yeah. And so as a result, we don't need to turn to Eastern practices Mhmm. In order to I think the the person said quiet the mind. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right. So I'll give you a real quick example. So in clinical psychology, we now know that there are certain struggles that happen what are called transdiagnostically, meaning across diagnoses. Yeah. So across anxiety and depression and trauma.
Dr. Josh Knabb:One of those is called repetitive negative thinking.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yes.
Dr. Josh Knabb:What that means is I get stuck in rumination, which is I keep spinning my wheels thinking about past conversations. I'm I'm absolutely prone to rumination. Yeah. Right? I'll come home from a long day at work, and I am just going, going, going.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? And my wife has to help me talk me off the ledge, so to speak.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Right? Okay.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Worry too. I've already talked about worry. So both of these are repetitive negative thinking. So what do I do with an overactive mind? And we know that research links, you know, repetitive negative thinking to anxiety and depression and trauma, all these things.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? OCD.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Well, Christian practices can actually help. We actually did a study on repetitive negative thinking, and found that Christian practices can actually reduce RNT for sure. What are these kinds of practices? Well, we have, example, out of the Orthodox tradition, the Jesus prayer. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. Mhmm. And so it's not a mantra.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Right.
Dr. Josh Knabb:It's actually a relationship, but it's this idea of praying without ceasing we read in the New Testament, along with instances where people ask Jesus for mercy. Right. Right? I love the Jesus prayer. We've done some research on the Jesus prayer for stress and repetitive negative thinking in addition to chronic worry, and we found good results there.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So how might that work instead of transcendental meditation? Well, I can engage in the practice formally. Right? You know, closing my eyes, sitting in a quiet space
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And kind of repeating the prayer, not as a mantra, but as a way to call on the name of Jesus. Right? Or I can do it informally throughout the day. Mhmm. The idea would be that we're always meditating on something.
Dr. Josh Knabb:We're always ruminating on something. Right. Like that cow chewing cut in the fields. It's it's what do I choose to meditate on Yeah. With intentionality.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So am I med that's where scripture comes in. Mhmm. The early desert Christians meditated on the Psalms. Right? Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Because they recognize that they have tempting compulsive thoughts in the deserts, ended up being the seven deadly sins. Right? Mhmm. So they categorized those thoughts, but the idea would be instead of letting those thoughts overwhelm me
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Right.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And pull me away from God, I can focus the mind on and it settles the mind on meditating on the Psalms or the Jesus prayer. Mhmm. And so I really like things like the Jesus prayer not only because of the words, right, but also in the Orthodox Church, they talk about mercy being not just withholding punishment
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But they point out that elios is similar to a a word for olive oil in Greek, like something along the lines of elion.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And and they would say that when you're using the Jesus prayer, what you're saying is, Lord Jesus Christ, soothe me and comfort me
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Because olive oil was used in Jesus' time to soothe as an ointment. Right? So I love this idea that when I have this overactive mind that won't stop, and I know myself for sure that that happens, I can call on the name of Jesus as ointment to soothe my overactive mind. So the telos of these practices are a relationship, inviting God to be where he already is, but to practice his presence to soothe and comfort this and settle an overactive mind, not repeating some random mantra as a way just to quiet the mind. So I that I would and I I could kinda keep going on that.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Think that Yeah. Trey, hopefully, you listened to what Josh said. I think that's good stuff. I think when I just looked at it very, very quickly, I don't have the background or the clarity that you have, I just thought, why would we turn to Hinduism when we can turn to Christ and just say these things? And so I would just say, remember, Trey, that the Lord's prayer is when you say our Father who art in heaven, that prayer is between thirteen and fifteen seconds.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So I think when a lot of people, you know, I need to pray along, I need to whatever, especially in a day and age where we're captivated by our phones, and we have attention deficit disorder everywhere. I just pray for as long as I can, and if that's fifteen seconds, I do that, if that's a few minutes, I do that. I'm a person with ADD. That's just who I am. And so part of that's God's design.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so part of the reason that I can relate so well is because I struggled in school with dyslexia, I couldn't read and I couldn't focus, so I had to learn other means of excelling. Conversation. And that's part of how God used my brokenness to bring out the beauty that, you know, that He called me to ultimately. So I would just say, find a Christian therapist, begin to talk about this. There are all kinds of Christian retreats, there's soul care, there's therapy, there's all kinds of things.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:The Christian tradition has a rich tradition in doing these things, and a mantra is just a mantra. But when we engage the person of Jesus, it's a person. And we have the Holy Spirit, so there are actually two things that can help us. And so in my mid thirties, I started doing ADD training, I don't know if I ever told you that, but it was focused therapy. Would actually go to a psychologist, they put these things in my mind, and and when I focused, the swimmer swam, and when I didn't, he drowned.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It was kinda traumatic. Mhmm. But it helped me. Yeah. And I was able to begin reading books, because I couldn't get through a book.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I was one of those guys that would read a page and not know what I read. Yeah. I couldn't quiet my mind to focus on what I was reading. And after that, I remember I read through The Lord of the Rings, 1,147 pages, and I was so pumped. And my wife's like, pick a short book, and I'm like, no, This is it.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And and it was such a a goal for me, but, Trey, think of your mind like you do your body. Like, so any sport that we play, you you don't just automatically you're not automatically awesome at it. You practice, you try, and sports is body control. The mind, you need mental control. And none of us have the mind that we want, right?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Our minds wander, our minds think things, and so, you know, work at controlling your mind in the same way that you work at controlling your body, the repetitive, ruminating, negative thoughts. You know, what does Paul say in Philippians? Think about good things. Yeah. Think about positive things.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Well, what things? Whatever is good. Whatever is true. Whatever is righteous. I mean, he gives you a big, wide sphere to think about, and he says, focus on these things.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It's meditation. Think about the things that are going good rather than the things that just break down. But I'll be praying for you for that, and Trey, I sympathize, so. Here we go. Annie Moss.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:My husband has narcissistic personality disorder. Maybe you can tell us what that is specifically, and can be rude, dishonest, and even unethical. Maybe this is what I have. I think. With most people, he engages in daily life.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I believe in my wedding vows, and I don't want to leave him. But I feel worn down with how he treats me and other people emotionally. I'm praying for a miracle, but what would God have me do in this situation? Okay. So what is narcissistic personality disorder?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. It's a type of personality disorders. We have many different personality disorders from antisocial personality disorder to narcissistic personality to things like borderline personality disorder. So narcissistic personality disorder, you know, really what we're talking about is grandiosity, grandiose views of self, entitlement, those kinds of things. So much so that it's rigid and ingrained and it impairs functioning.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Okay. And so personality disorders can be especially difficult in general because of how rigid they are, relatively fixed they are, and enduring across settings. So for most of us, we adjust. Right? I go to work.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I I pick up on, you know, the kind of the the response I'm getting from other people, and I adjust. And then I go home, and I'm hopefully not the same person I am at work as a supervisor as I am. My wife doesn't like to be supervised at home. Right? Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. My my kids don't either, although they have to be. But but but I I adjust as needed. But with personality disorders, the challenge is that they're relatively fixed and stay pretty fixed and stable across different contexts.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. And
Dr. Josh Knabb:so and so much so that even in spite of impaired functioning, they they continue. So k. The challenge, I think, with narcissism is a few things. It's interesting that we've been looking at narcissism, not the personality disorder, but just rising rates of narcissism. So some psychologists have devoted their whole career to this.
Dr. Josh Knabb:For a while, we're seeing, even among young adults, narcissism going up, rates of narcissism going up. I mean, we see this with it's the selfie generation. It's, you know, the likes on social media. It's self absorption. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm. And now, I think they've kind of tapered off, but the challenge in general is what do we do with narcissism, I think. Yeah. One theorist would say that early on in life, we need what's called mirroring. Mirroring is basically a caregiver reflecting back to us our value, our goodness.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? So it's like little Johnny coming home with a finger painting. Look, mom. Look, dad. That child needs the parent to say, well done.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? Because you're good in some way.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Now Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:As Christians, we believe we're fallen. Some might say depraved. Yeah. But that's a that's a conversation further down the road. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:But in that moment, little Johnny needs mirroring. Right? What happens when we don't have a a good amount of mirroring? Well, if mirroring ends up leading to healthy self esteem, where you begin to kind of internalize that and then you kind of it creates a kind of a cohesive solid sense of self. What happens when that's deficient?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Well, one idea would be that we end up with what's called kind of a mirror hungry personality. This is the celebrity who has a sold out arena. Thank you, audience, and goes back into the dressing room in weeks. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. There it's a bottomless pit. There's never enough. Mhmm. And so one theorist says actually that what we need with narcissism is paradoxically more attention, not less, because of deficient mirroring early on.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so how might we have compassion for someone who is entitled and narcissistic? Not easy to do, but I think we actually have to have compassion for them and recognizing there's a part of them that really deep down has a need for healthy attention. Yeah. For, basically, to be loved. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:And I think from a Christian perspective, we'd say, ultimately, only God can do those things. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And and that people will fall short. But we still need good enough mirroring throughout the lifespan. I mean, if I get a promotion at work or something happens, the first person I wanna go home and tell is my wife so that I can get what? Well done. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:We we all have that need as human beings. And so I think from a place now, it doesn't mean that the problems go away, but I think from a place of compassion, we can actually look at narcissism maybe a little differently as somebody really struggling internally with a healthy sense of self, possibly coming from early experiences where they didn't get those needs met.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. What do you think about she says, well, I believe in my wedding vows. I don't want to leave him, but I feel worn down with how he treats me and other people emotionally.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. That's really tough. Yeah. So, I mean, that's something where if you're living with someone with a personality disorder in general, I would say having the support of a therapist, having the support of a community is really important because it can be exhausting. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And we can get burned out. And because it's so fixed, ingrained, it can be, you know, we can we can go without any relief from that. And so, yeah, I would say absolutely working with someone would be important so that you can sort Can through
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:a narcissistic person with this personality, can they self reflect? Is that even possible?
Dr. Josh Knabb:I think yeah. I think so. I think it depends. I think, you know, as we move into something more like antisocial personality, where you're manipulating others, where, you know, you're you're using other people's emotions to kind of get your own. But narcissistic, it depends.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I think if it's more of just symptoms of narcissism, but personality disorder, I think probably long term therapy is is gonna be important. But I
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I think so. I think there is some capacity for self reflection. I do.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay. Good. Well, that's good. That's helpful. That's great.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:She says, I'm praying for a miracle, but what would God have me do in this situation? Correct me if I'm wrong. What I would say is, Annie, I would try to express, in safe setting how discouraged you're feeling about how they treat you, and how you're not okay with that, and how if it doesn't change, you may not be able to stay in this relationship. And try to do that not in a threatening matter, although I would think a narcissist would hear everything I just said as a threat. But I would just say, look, here's how you're treating me.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And maybe a specific example, Yesterday when you said, you know, you're ugly, you're fat, you're gross, whatever, it made me feel this way. You know, and I dealt with a narcissist guy in our church who was a former minister, and I just asked him, I said, so would Jesus speak to your wife that way? And it caught him because it wasn't about him, it was about Jesus. And he had at least a framework for kindness from Jesus, but you know, he just was so ruthless to his wife. And then just to say, and just to really say, I feel hopeless in this, and I'm going to need to make a decision if you don't make a decision, and that way giving them some control that they can change and that there's hope.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:But again, from a piece of paper, without meeting the person, I wouldn't know. The thing about narcissists, and that's what I was asking you, is they tend to not think that they don't have a problem. It's not them. It's everyone else. You know, they would counsel you.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. You know, they tell me how to run the church. You know, they they know how to be president.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So and that's part of the problem is they really do believe that they have all the answers, and so what you think or I think is stupid. Yeah. And that's what makes it so difficult. So what I would do is I would just say I would try to have that conversation, and then just be open and honest about how just be very, very clear about how you feel. Any So thoughts?
Dr. Josh Knabb:No. I I think that's great. I mean, I think, you know, being open and honest about, you know, her experience Yeah. Right, and doing so in a non threatening way. So Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Talking about her own emotional experience. Yeah. But then also, yeah, it might it might be that, you know, couples therapy
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Could could help in that regard Yeah. If she doesn't feel like she's being understood or heard in a relationship too. Yeah. So because that can be extremely difficult if the person is just focused on themselves and their own experience. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So getting getting help from a from a couple's therapist to help mediate and and help them in in that regard might be a good idea too.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And it might just be, I don't think we can stay married unless we see a counselor. Yeah. Because you gotta get them to counseling, and that's gonna be the hard part. I don't feel like I can stay in this marriage unless we go to counseling. And I mean, I've seen marriages, I mean, I can list five, six guys in our church.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Their wife said, We go to church or we're getting divorced. Like, oh, and they came, and they found Christ, and they've changed. And I'm not saying that will happen for your husband, but I think men, especially men, we need clear statements with the potential consequences. If I don't do that, what's going to happen? Like, I think the mistake that women make often is they try they're hoping that we'll read between the lines, and I'm like, I need you to draw the line.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Like, here's the line. Like, this is exactly how I'm feeling. And so because if there's any hope at all of him getting into counseling, he needs to know what is the potential consequence if there isn't a change. And here's the thing is, you need to state, we have not been able to change this. So we need a professional to help us change.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Because narcissists can be manipulative, right, and turn it on and and be really good for a period of time, and then revert to because I mean, you always wonder, how does a narcissist get people to marry him? Yeah. But they do. They like, they can you know, it's a weird thing.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. Initially, there might be this attraction. Right? Yeah. It might come across as confidence.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But then over time, what what needs to happen is there needs to be a give and take. Right? The two become one, and there's reciprocity. There's Yeah. Self self sacrifice.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But over time, that can be it's almost like, you know, looking at, you know, the a a shape where you have, like, you know, one person taking up all, and then there's, like, a little crescent moon as the other person. Right? And so one person's personality takes up all the space in the room, and the other person ends up being Yeah. At times, like dependent personality, like more of a dependent person. And so initially, that might attract one another, but over time
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That can lead to an impaired relationship because
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Both needs aren't being met.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. I've seen it, unfortunately. Yeah. All right. This is SC from Riverside.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and struggle with anger, unspeakable irritability, mood swings. Thank you, SC, for your honesty. Being in small group has saved me from a trip to the mental hospital, and I am so grateful for my community. Recently, I shared with them that I don't know if I'll ever be healed from this. Is it wrong for me to feel that way?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I have heard several testimonies about people who's been struggling with mental health, like bipolar, and they've said God healed them, and they don't take medication anymore. I believe God is healing me and restoring me again, but sometimes I'm disappointed. What are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Josh Knabb:So there's a big conversation here about suffering and God's role in suffering and and then thinking about contemporary diagnoses like bipolar disorder and what to do with it. I I would say, to kinda start, I I believe in God's common grace. I mentioned that before. So that that God actually can work through something like medication. So like a mood stabilizer for bipolar disorder.
Dr. Josh Knabb:So, you know, if that's working for someone, I think God is can can be working through that. Right? The bigger conversation is and, you know, I think I think your book Miracles, I think, grapples with this too. What do we do with long term enduring suffering? Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:As a psychologist, a clinical psychologist, this is a question clients come in to see us for every day. Right? Yeah. What do I do with recurrent worry and anxiety? What do I do with OCD?
Dr. Josh Knabb:What do I do with a trauma related disorder? What do I do with psychotic disorder where I, you know, have delusions and hallucinations? What happens when they won't the suffering won't go away?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Mhmm.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And that's where I think, you know, something like ACT comes in where we're learning how to be more accepting of in order to live out our values. The challenge is, and I've seen this over the years working on inpatient units and outpatient settings, is that often and it makes sense. There's an expectation that, right, if I just get the right medication or I just get the right therapist, that the symptoms will go away. But many of our disorders are long term. Longitudinal research would suggest that anxiety disorders, at year one, people presenting to a clinic.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Twelve years later, one study found that the majority still had anxiety disorders, right? So, the idea that symptoms will go away is sometimes not realistic. So then what do we do with that? Do we learn how to live out our values in the midst of, right, and find a way to have a value based life and to invite our symptoms along for the ride, like that bus driver? Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Right? I like to think of, if I give one more metaphor, a metaphor of a house, right? I think our inner world is often like living long term with roommates where we've signed a long term lease. Right? You you know, going into it, you don't know who you're gonna room with.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But if you've ever roomed with somebody who was inconsiderate and Yeah. Right? That's like the inner world. Right? And some of us have more inconsiderate roommates than others.
Dr. Josh Knabb:The question becomes, what do I do with the inconsiderate roommates given I have signed a long term lease? Now I could try to kick them out
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Right.
Dr. Josh Knabb:But they have a key just like I do, and they'll just show up right back I can devote all my energy to getting rid of these roommates, or I can learn to make peace with the reality that they live there too. For Christians, it would be recognizing that God is also the roommate. And instead of, you know, relegating God to the, you know, pool house or the basement or the attic, I can invite Jesus to be with me in every room. And so the roommates are still inconsiderate. The roommates are still noisy.
Dr. Josh Knabb:They still leave the dishes. But I can learn to be more accepting of them because I have Jesus with me in the midst of. So that's that's the question, right, is is, yes, I can pray for healing. But for many of these disorders, they are in a fallen, broken world more long term. Can I find ways, through therapy, through, you know, skills that we've developed in psychology to be more accepting of the noisy roommates?
Dr. Josh Knabb:You know? Yeah. Maybe one more metaphor here. My wife and I lived in apartments for many years. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:We were in graduate school. We were not very wealthy.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And everywhere we moved, there were noisy neighbors. Yes. Right? It got to a point where one we were upstairs into the right, and the people downstairs on both sides were, like, partiers. And then at one point, they joined forces to party.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so, like, they have their outdoor balconies, First Floor, and they're, like, partying to and we're trying to get just up the stairs to our and then the people who we shared a wall with to the right of us were partiers. And so we would go to the leasing office. We would call the police. And, ultimately, you know, that's apartment living. Right?
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so we ended up making peace with the reality that there are noisy neighbors. Now, we're not talking about safety issues. We're not talking about, like, violence. But we had to be because if we move somewhere else, we'd probably have noisy neighbors too. Can we find ways to be more accepting and compassionate towards these noisy neighbors, inviting God to be with us in the process, and focus on living out our values.
Dr. Josh Knabb:What kind of person do I wanna be in the midst of? Because tragically, if I wait for the noisy neighbors to move out, life is gonna kinda pass me by.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Amen. Do you guys have your Bibles in front of you? Can you look up first Peter four twelve or first Peter four nineteen? I can't remember what verse it is.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. So I'll quote that verse to you guys as soon as they get it back to me. But, you know, first Peter talks a lot about suffering, and so the church is hurting. Christ has
Dr. Josh Knabb:It's four nineteen. So if you're suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. So read the first part, the verb.
Dr. Josh Knabb:If you are suffering in a manner that pleases God.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay, let's stop there. So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God. So what does that mean? A better translation, if you are suffering according to God's will. So that would be a bet.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So how do you know if it's God's will? If you ask it to go away and it doesn't go away, then this is your path. Like, you know, somebody gets diagnosed with cancer, so we ask for a miracle, but what does Jesus say? Not my will be done, but your will be done. And so so if you're suffering according to God's will, what do you do?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And then what's after the comma?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Keep on doing what is right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay. Stop there. So what do we do? We keep on doing what is right. So we don't change our moral compass.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:We don't change our values. We don't start sinning. We don't get angry with God. And then here's the why at the end of the verse.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Entrust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. See, and that's the why. The why is in the endgame, God is going to make all things right, and it's it's why, you know, the resurrection has kind of been lost in Christianity. Right? It's all about heaven and hell, and and we've missed that what what creation longs for is not heaven.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It is the recreation of all things. Yeah. So Isaiah sees this. Right? That the lion will lie down with the lamb.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:The child will put their hand into the den of the viper, and the viper will not strike. You know, that we will beat our swords into plows. Yeah. There will be no more war because the Messiah will rule and reign, and there will be peace, listen to this, not just on earth, but in heaven because there will be a new heaven and new earth. And that's how the Bible ends.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:That's Revelation 22. There there's a new heaven and a new earth, and and that's what we long for. In the meantime, we we sit in this waiting space where we have to kinda ache and suffer Yeah. And long. And and Peter talks a lot about that, and I think it was it was first Peter four nineteen.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I I was like, I can't remember which verse that was, but I actually sent a note to a church member two or three weeks ago, and I just God put that verse on my heart, and I sent it to them, because sometimes life doesn't make any sense, but if you're suffering according to God's will, look, hang in there, keep doing good, because God's gonna make it right. The creator is going to recreate things and it's gonna be beautiful. So here's here's the thing, SC in Riverside. I think, and I talked about this in my book, Josh, thanks for bringing it up. I think we need to celebrate when there are miracles in the lives of others, but we can't expect that all the time.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:They're called miracles and not everydayers for a reason. And kind of the secret sauce, for those of you who did the QR codes in the book, is Lamentations three twenty two and twenty three, the Lord's mercies are new every morning. The darkest book in the Bible is Lamentations. There's it's just, oh my gosh, is we're all we're all slaves. Our our dads are dead.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Our warriors are gone. King Zedekiah's eyes have been gouged out right before he watched every one of his sons murdered. That's that's what's happened to the chosen people, and yet, in the middle of that book, the Lord's mercies are new every morning. And so we've to trust that God's gonna keep doing something good, even though we're walking through this path of immense suffering. And I think while we know that, there's a difference between knowing that suffering is real and then living out real suffering.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Mhmm. So here's the thing about Lamentations that's so bizarre. It's written by Jeremiah who told them Yeah. Over and over and over again, this is gonna happen. And yet when he writes Lamentations, he's still shocked.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Because, you know, real suffering is always real. I was on the phone with a family in our church, and this is new and fresh. And this is the part of ministry that's just like, if encourage I people to pray for your pastors, here's why. So it's my Thursday morning, I get a phone call, family in our church, one year old, the dad fell asleep with the baby on his lap and left the sliding glass door open, and they have a swimming pool.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And the baby woke up, crawled out, went in the pool, and drowned. So, you know, Thursday's the day I preach, and here's my Thursday morning. I'm FaceTiming with the family.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And mom and dad's hands are over the little guy, and he's brain dead. Yeah. And like, conceptually, know that children die. Seeing that and I and I knew I knew before we did the FaceTime what I was gonna see. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:It's still different seeing it. Yeah. And and and knowing that God could do a miracle, but but but they're talking about organ donation Yeah. For their one year old. And then I have to go preach a message on marriage an hour later.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I mean, you know what I wanted to do? Screw marriage. Screw life. You know what mean? That's where I am emotionally.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so it's just the reality of and this is why, you know, we need pastors and therapists that walk with us through our darkest moments.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Because it's one thing to know that divorce exists, it's one thing to know that mental health exists, it's another thing to sit with someone and walk through it. Yeah. And to pray with a husband and wife over their dead son. Yeah. You know?
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:So so those are the things, right, that that that we we need to know. And so what do we do? Like, what what do I what do I do with that? Because I just had this feeling. First Peter four nineteen.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Okay. Lord, heal heal this child in accordance with your will. Now was it God's will that the that the sliding glass door be open? That the child I don't believe so.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:But we're humans. We live in a world real world that's dangerous and things happen. And so so let me just say, I'm praying for you, but don't get focused on everyone else because your journey is not their journey. And just say, God, what's my journey? And okay, so if my journey is that I don't get healed, that that's great.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Somebody's off medication. I can tell you that's not everybody's story. Yeah. What's my healing journey? And if it is to walk in a bipolar disorder, I wanna serve Jesus with a bipolar disorder, and so that means I may need to be on did you call it a mood suppressant?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. A mood stabilizer.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:A mood stabilizer, sorry. A mood and that's okay. Like, if you need glasses, I tell people what, we can pray over your vision, and if you can't see, go to the eye doctor. So and and so medications for mental health are like glasses. They help you see better.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And and that's okay. There's no shame in that. And and just say, okay, Lord, I wanna I wanna I wanna love and serve you, and I wanna continue to do good. Why? Because in the end, I know you'll fix this.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. You know what there won't be in the new earth? Mental disorders. They're going to be healed. And that's why in my book, I talked about we've forgotten who Jesus is.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:He's the healer of all things. You know, my favorite line is, behold, I make all things new.
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:I mean, you know, Revelation's a dark book, but it's a book full of hope. Yeah. It's a book full of hope. You know, even though we're being chased around by a fiery dragon, and everybody's had sex with the same woman, that's a weird verse. There's hope in that because the I am, the Alpha and the Omega has returned.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And so anyways, Josh, thank you for I just appreciate you. And one of the things, one of the joys about being a part of the same church forever is to watch young men like you come into our church, get married, become a man, be professional. You just don't get that when you move around a lot. And so I've gotten to see just you and your wife, and I'm just so grateful that the Lord's blessed you guys, and I appreciate you, and I thank you for your authenticity and being on the show. And we were sitting in church, I was in at your campus
Dr. Josh Knabb:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And he's behind me, I was like, hey, I want you on the debrief. So so thanks for we probably shouldn't have been having that conversation. I think it was during confession, actually. People were going up to confess, and I'm like, Josh. So but thank you for being you.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:And, you know, if if someone wanted to come to your clinic or they wanted therapy, they wanted to do the type of therapy you do, how do they get in touch with you?
Dr. Josh Knabb:Yeah. I mean, you can you can contact me at California Baptist University, my my Cal Baptist. I have a profile there. Okay. We also we have a clinic, Psychological Services of Riverside.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Where and where is that?
Dr. Josh Knabb:That's about a half mile on the other side of the auto dealerships in Riverside Okay. So people can can reach out there and
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Okay. Say the name slowly.
Dr. Josh Knabb:Psychological Services of Riverside. Okay. Cool. So if you just Google that and Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Knabb:I appreciate it. I mean, my passion is really to to take my training but to bring it within the walls of the church, and so I appreciate you talking about, you know, really new heaven, new earth. I've been fascinated with this idea of the, you know, the beatific vision or whatever. I think throughout history Yeah. We we've been able to get through psychological and physical suffering because of Yes.
Dr. Josh Knabb:It's this idea of, you know, the I need to look at the ground and look at the horizon. Right? The ground is the suffering I experience on this side of heaven, and that's often distracting. But I also need to look up at the horizon because the horizon is orienting. It tells me where I need to go.
Dr. Josh Knabb:And so as Christians, we have a hope in being face to face with God in heaven, glorification that that maybe secular communities don't. And so, even in the midst of something like bipolar disorder, even in the midst of something like having a spouse with narcissistic personality disorder, we have hope in God's eventual restoration. And, you know, I would just to kind of conclude, I would I would define Christian mental health, not just mental health, but Christian mental health as, you know, and this is kind of inspired by the the Puritan theologian John Owen in his communion with God. That that Christian mental health is being empowered by the Holy Spirit who offers comfort, to walk home with the Son who offers grace, to the outstretched arms of the Father who offers love. And so in the midst of suffering, we have the Holy Spirit to comfort us, and we have the Son who understands our weaknesses, who empathizes with our weaknesses, and calls us to his throne of grace as we, like the prodigal son, go home to the so I I think it's as Christians, we have hope in the midst of suffering based on what we read in scripture and our relationship with Christ.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Yeah. Amen. Amen. Thanks for being on the show, Josh. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your own questions to the podcast anytime by going to move.sc/ask, or you can go to the Sandals Church app. Until next time. See you there. Love you guys.
Matthew Stephen Brorwn:Keep being real, and thank you, Josh, for being here. Thank you.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at give.sc. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you are going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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