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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:00.520] - Dr. Jude Black
I would say that a toxic leader, in my experience, in my research, there are direct correlations between narcissism. They're always right, never wrong. If they're wrong, refer to rule number one, they're always right. They keep people in their spotlight as long as they're compliant. But the minute they go out of alliance, they're kicked out and they become the enemy.
[00:00:30.810] - John Berry
Welcome to Veteran Led. Today's guest is Dr. Jude Black. She is the founder and CEO of three organizations: the Appalachian Counseling Center, E-Therapy Café, and the Appalachian Trauma and Resiliency Center. Dr. Jude was honored as the 2024 Remarkable Woman of West Virginia. She has served as a clinical therapist, psychotherapist, client services executive, and Chief Operating Officer. Welcome to the show, Dr. Jude.
[00:01:06.710] - John Berry
Dr. Jude, you are also a military spouse, and you have worked extensively in the Veteran community. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:01:15.100] - Dr. Jude Black
I've been married to my husband for--goodness--we just celebrated 33 years. We met in college. I knew he wore some crazy uniform, and he played Army on the weekends. Fast forward 30 years, we moved 19 times. Had three boys, adults now, all born in three different zip codes, and we were separated for 66 months during our military career due to deployments and military activities. So, I kind of have no other bearing what life would be like outside of the military until recently when he retired from the Pentagon.
[00:01:52.630] - John Berry
You don't just help Veterans; you also help military spouses. Tell us how you got involved in understanding the trauma that military spouses sometimes experience.
[00:02:03.950] - Dr. Jude Black
When my military spouse career, and it was a career, the lifestyle started, I was young. I was in my early 20s, and I really had no understanding of what was to come. We were coming off the tail end of Iraq, and excuse me, rewind, Saudi. That was my first experience of seeing trauma in the soldiers and noticing the impact that it had on the families as well. We had spouses that flashed the nightmares with the mood swings. That's when I really started being curious...how could I help in this field?
[00:02:44.570] - John Berry
By helping, you didn't just counsel, but you also wrote an article about toxic leadership and how it affects Army spouses. Please share that with us.
[00:02:55.120] - Dr. Jude Black
We had experienced toxic leadership when my husband was a battalion commander. I heard about it. I heard the stories. But until you have been through it, I think that the understanding, you're just at the tip of the iceberg with that one. For us, what we noticed in my family, specifically, is it was PTSD. The families would hunker down, wait it out, and hope for the next leadership to come through. I knew I wasn't alone because I saw other spouses that their husbands were in this command, dealing with the same things. That's when I decided to get this emotion into what my struggles were, and then went all in doing the dissertation on it. Through the dissertation, I found evidence that it really was very similar to PTSD that people experience. But the one thing that really surprised and shocked me are the couples that endured toxic leadership, they didn't divorce. They ended up staying together because, to be blunt, they had a common enemy that they had to bind together and figure out how to weather it. They were able to come out on the other side stronger and with a different insight. A lot of the symptoms, although you might be triggered going into a new command or a new position, you were resilient.
[00:04:20.590] - Dr. Jude Black
I think that's what surprised me, talking with the spouses and the families and the soldiers at the Pentagon, is the level of resiliency that could come about as a direct experience of that commander.
[00:04:35.660] - John Berry
The one thing that I didn't really understand when I was a new officer, a second lieutenant, was how much the families were affected. All I was thinking was, okay, it's a deployment we're going to be away. But I wasn't married. I was single. You just don't think about those things. The one image that comes back to my mind is the red Corvette owned by our S3, this Major. This guy was always at battalion. The thought was, well, he wants to make '05 or Lieutenant Colonel so he can retire, get his 20 years in. But he was just always there. I can remember I was a staff duty officer. I mean, his car would leave maybe 11:00 at night, midnight, and he'd be back before five o'clock for PT. Just thinking now as a being married and being a father, how much stress that puts on, regardless of whether the commander is toxic. Now we add in the element of toxic leadership. I can just imagine coming home feeling beat down, berated, and now your spouse saying, well, hey, what's wrong? What's going on? Then I'm sure it causes other stresses at home.
[00:05:37.830] - Dr. Jude Black
Oh, it absolutely does. Then you toss in someone like me, an Italian strong-willed woman, and then the struggles get even worse because I inherently would see things that were wrong, things that were unethical, and I naturally want to shift and address them and advocate for those that are connected to that. Well, that's a coin toss on that one, too, right? Because my behaviors would directly influence my husband's behaviors, which could directly influence those that were serving under this leadership as well. I had to really do a reset and figure out how am I going to get through this, be supportive of my husband, and serve as a barrier to the other individuals involved. That became my 'why' during that. It wasn't to get rid of him because it was very, very difficult. But on the karma thing, he actually was transferred. It was known, and it became worldwide knowledge that toxic leaders are a problem. He was a problem, and you really shouldn't kiss the spouses and think it's okay. Karma did happen in that situation. But for me, it was a constant reevaluation of what my 'why' was that day, that week, and shift accordingly in order to get through it.
[00:06:54.930] - Dr. Jude Black
Because there's some things we can change, other things that we can't. I couldn't change what was, but I really could focus on who I wanted to be through that experience because I knew it'd come to an end. I just didn't know when.
[00:07:09.200] - John Berry
If you are the spouse of someone who has experienced toxic leadership, my wife is also a strong-willed Italian woman, and it seems that sometimes by bringing issues to her, it only makes things worse, because you've been there, obviously. How can we, as spouses, support our loved ones when we know that they're going through this same thing, when they're dealing with toxic leadership at work?
[00:07:34.510] - Dr. Jude Black
That's a great question. I think that the key is communication. We learn to ask each other, who do you need me to be right now? Do I need to be my Italian hothead? Do you need me to be your wife? Am I a listener? Start with the communication. Who am I supposed to be in this moment? Because like I said, immediately go to advocacy. Sometimes that was a terrible idea. I would say start with communication and talk with each other to find out what you need in that moment. There were times that I had experienced long issues with this leadership team, and I would go to him, and he'd want to go address it, and I'd say, no, no, no, that's not what I need. I need you to be listening spouse right now. I don't need a fixer. There's times I need a fixer spouse, but now it's not fixer spouse, now it's listening spouse. I need you to tell me that I'm okay, I'm not crazy, and we're going to figure out how to get through this together.
[00:08:32.860] - John Berry
That's great advice because I am the fixer spouse. I'm the fixer in the organization. If you bring me a problem, you will get a solution. You may not like the solution, but I'm assuming that if you bring it to me, you have used all other reasonable resources and thought processes, and you're coming to me because you're stuck, and I'm happy to help. That doesn't always work. Let me take you now to, I think, the question that most of us ask is, how do we know if we're working with a toxic leader, toxic commander, or toxic boss?
[00:09:00.970] - Dr. Jude Black
I think that the easiest way is if it's easier for us to describe toxic leadership than define it. I have some great mentors in my life that have really helped me navigate through the toxicity. The best definition I can give you is you kick down; you kiss up. Many times, the senior leaders have no idea what's going on because of the behaviors and the control within that toxic leadership. But those that are underneath of the toxic leader, they're very well aware of it. There's demeaning, there's manipulation, there's gaslighting, there's double standards. I would say that a toxic leader, in my experience, in my research, there are direct relations between narcissism. They're always right, never wrong. If they're wrong, refer to rule number one, they're always right. They keep people in their spotlight as long as they're compliant. But the minute they go out of alliance, they're kicked out and they become the enemy. There are chosen individuals that are more subservient, and they stay within that spotlight a lot more than those who may ask questions may have suggestions, may have more a barometer.
[00:10:20.570] - John Berry
It's identifying that individual. When you say, kiss up, that means up the chain, they look like they're picture-perfect leaders, and they suck up to their bosses, but they kick down and they beat on their subordinates.
[00:10:37.620] - Dr. Jude Black
That is the best definition I can give you. They kiss up and kick down. They're often the golden child and any idea that comes from those that work for them, if it's effective and if it's a great idea, it becomes their idea. Very little credit is given to those who are doing the work.
[00:10:56.700] - John Berry
You mentioned the term narcissism. I want to talk about that, especially from a clinical perspective, because we know that many of the world's greatest entrepreneurs had some narcissistic traits, but narcissism itself is not bad. It's when it reaches a certain point. Could you please explain that to us?
[00:11:12.650] - Dr. Jude Black
Well, I think that anyone that's in the leadership role can have narcissistic traits. Just based on the experiences that you had to go through to get to where you are, you have to rely on yourself, you have to trust your judgment. However, it becomes narcissistic when no one else matters, when everyone is dismissed, when the tone is... When we lived in Hawaii, "high maka maka"--it means the highest on top of the mountain, and you're very standard--all the peons below you. You've really become an island. You have no use for anyone. You'll do whatever it takes to get what you want.
[00:11:54.870] - John Berry
Is there a formal diagnosis for that?
[00:11:57.540] - Dr. Jude Black
Absolutely. It does run on a continuum. If you're on the really far end, we've got psychopaths and sociopaths, and that's a whole new level from narcissism. Not all narcissists want to kill people or go to the extremes that I would have over here. But you will see with narcissism, you do leave a body in your pathway of the past. Very few relationships are super enduring because someone disappoints you and you kick them out. Remember that spotlight? They like their things very clean and people that are almost like adoring them.
[00:12:37.690] - John Berry
It almost sounds like you get to the cult figure, where they want to control everything.
[00:12:44.090] - Dr. Jude Black
Yeah. Historically, if you look at cult leaders, they were narcissists. You look at the Jim Jones, they were always right. You look at some of these other cult figures. There are clear patterns of behavior.
[00:13:00.050] - John Berry
Now we know how to identify that toxic leader, and we're looking for these narcissistic traits. Now we see them. Now it's, okay, I'm not crazy. What steps do we take? Obviously, if you're in the military, you're stuck. I guess you can go to the IG, you can make some complaints, but what are the courses of action available to a military spouse or to a service member or a civilian? Now that you're in the civilian world, you can always quit. But in the military, you can't. How do you deal with it?
[00:13:26.010] - Dr. Jude Black
This was really tough for me to swallow because, again, I'm an advocate and I'm a fierce believer that you change what's wrong and take every step that you can to shift an alliance with that. But what I've learned from talking to military personnel and people that have also had the lived experience, hunker down and wait it out. You cannot control that around you, but you can control who you are going to be through this season. Pick your battles. You try not to become a target. Remember that spotlight. You don't want to get kicked out too far. Do your job to the best of your ability. Also, gently reminding yourself that this season will end. I don't know when and I don't know how, but the one thing we know is it's always changing in the military. If you can shift yourself into a different position outside of that leadership without a lot of collateral damage, I would encourage that, too. But if you have a trusted group of people whether they're outside of the military or outside of the military, that they're just going to support you and recognize and acknowledge, hey, you're having a tough time.
[00:14:39.310] - Dr. Jude Black
That's the advice that I would give you.
[00:14:41.730] - John Berry
Now, let me shift you to the civilian world. Where we talk about toxic work environments and where I think Veterans get pretty stressed out, not because the leader is a narcissist or the leader is forcing, making all the decisions. But I find that some of these toxic work environments come from a laissez-faire leader. And so, a military Veteran comes into a work environment, wants to be a high performer, wants to do great things. And by day three, they're telling him, hey, man, you're working too hard. Slow it down. You're making people look bad. This is not the tempo of the organization. This is not our off tempo. Have you seen that type of a toxic workplace where the Veteran is coming home every day to his spouse saying, I'm worried this place is going to go out of business. There are no high performers here. I'm being told to slow down, take it easy. I'm not going to reach my potential. I think that creates a huge amount of stress.
[00:15:37.640] - Dr. Jude Black
What we notice is when military personnel are transitioning out into the civilian work sector, I think the values are different at times unless you're joining an organization that's military run. The standards are different, the policies are different, the protocols are different. Just because the leadership might be laissez-faire, it doesn't necessarily equate to toxic leadership. Toxic leadership destroys the individuals within. You might have a poor leader. You might have a weak leader. I would look at the various types of leadership. Again, just like narcissism, leadership runs on a continuation. Over here, you've got toxicity. Over here, you just have a crap leader. So, notice that too. I would encourage people to figure out what abilities do you have to facilitate change within in that organization.
[00:16:31.380] - John Berry
In your role, you've had many roles, but you've also worked as coaching individuals and performing better. Performance coaching, how do we get better? How do we think about problems, reframe them so that we can improve? When you are dealing, especially with Veterans, people who are used to seeing those high standards, how do you convince them, or I should say, how do you coach them to reach their potential? It seems that we run into this all the time where someone hits a brick wall and you see the potential and you know they can get there. How do you help them solve those problems?
[00:17:02.720] - Dr. Jude Black
One of the best ways I had found is encouraging people just to quiet the noise for a moment and envision themselves being the best version of themselves as a professional. What would you be doing? Think about that for a moment. What's different with your best version than what you're doing now? I look at noise as everything that's distracting you from what it is. Who do you want to be and what do you need to get there? I also like numbers, too. If you're scaling yourself on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best version of yourself, where are you right now? If you tell me you're an eight, tell me all the reasons you chose an eight. Why did you choose an eight and not a seven? That's going to tell me some of the things that you're doing right now that are effective. Then I'm going to come back and say, well, what would make you a nine? What would be so different? You have to give me actions that, okay, I can increase my level of competency here. I could do professional development here. I could show up in a different way at work.
[00:18:14.720] - Dr. Jude Black
It's really strength-based, action-based to help you become the best version of yourself professionally and resource development. It's a lot of resource development.
[00:18:27.750] - John Berry
Does accountability really play a key? You hear about accountability groups, and I know that some people have therapists, and their therapists do a good job of keeping them accountable. Other people say, Well I have a therapist that suggests things, and we talk about something else the next week. Does accountability matter when you're trying to be the best version of yourself? I should say external accountability.
[00:18:45.710] - Dr. Jude Black
I would say yes, and I'll tell you why, and this is based on my personal experience. As you know, I'm part of the CEO Circle with Bunker Labs and IBMF. Having others that are in similar positions of leadership to hold me accountable has made me be more aware, more present, more intentional, because I don't want to let people down. I think that when we're relying only on ourselves, we don't have that external insight as to where we want to be. Having someone that you trust, that has experience in education, and they're in it for us as well, I don't know. I think that it just helps me be a better version of me, too. I've seen the changes over the last two years by having an accountability group. For me, I needed it professionally. I have a really tight knit of personal individuals that they don't hesitate to call me out. But professionally, I've been challenged because I'm like an island in my field with having others that would hold me accountable because a lot of them have worked for me and they're afraid to call me out. Now I'm just really shifting the culture of my company, too, and giving them permission to call me out, to help us grow, help us change, give them ownership.
[00:20:13.870] - Dr. Jude Black
But having that core group of people to hold you accountable for the things that you say you're going to do; I think it helps us level up. I think it's super important.
[00:20:26.670] - John Berry
How does that work, that group dynamic, that peer accountability, why does that make us want to be better? I've noticed that generally people who are in peer groups perform better. We hear that we are the sum of the five people we spend the most time with. But what is it about that peer group dynamic that encourages high performance?
[00:20:44.000] - Dr. Jude Black
Well, if I strip it down, we don't want to look like idiots or fools. We want to be taken for our word, and we have that human nature of wanting to be liked and accepted and belong. We want to matter. When you have this peer accountability group, or even if it's not a group, if it's one or two chosen individuals that you're going to be responsible to do what you say you're going to do, that just really lands into our human nature. We want to be accepted, and we want to belong. I think that the accountability groups are checking all those boxes for us, too.
[00:21:23.780] - John Berry
I found that the military accountability groups are the best, where you have Veterans and military spouses, you get resilient people. Look, I've been in Vistage, I've been in EO, I've been in forums, and I've been several other groups where there were what I would call accountability group or peer groups. And what I found was, if you can't really relate, it's very tough to want to, I think, I don't want to say impress, but you don't... Like you said, you don't look like an idiot. You don't want to let your peers down. And I've been in environments where I think the mindset was so different, than the non-Veteran mindset, that it's like, okay, they don't get me. I really don't care if I let them down, right? Whereas I learned in the military, I remember I was at my battalion command school and we were talking about the officer evaluation report. I'm looking through it and I'm like, why do we have to mark integrity? Isn't that a given? Isn't that like, don't lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those who do? And then this one-star General, he said, no. Integrity is doing what you say you're going to do when you say you are going to do it.
[00:22:23.760] - John Berry
And I was like, wow. Yeah, that's a little bit deeper. And I think sometimes when we are in a peer group where we have common definitions, common background, common experiences, it changes everything because I could be in another peer group and I'm not motivated. I really don't care if I let them down because I just don't feel like they're part of my tribe. When you find that tribe and their opinions matter to you. I mean, if you don't like me or like what I do, and I don't really know you, and we don't come from the same background, I'm over you. I don't need to talk to you anymore. This isn't going to work out. I'm almost 50 years old. I'm not going to waste my time worrying about you don't like me or you don't like what I'm doing. But it's very different when you have a tribe, you're close with, those opinions matter. And even though I may disagree with them violently, we are going to, in the end, that respect is there. And that has made such a difference to me in finding that peer group. So, either Veteran or non-Veteran, how do you find that peer group that fits?
[00:23:22.040] - Dr. Jude Black
I wish I had all the answers with that because I've tried various groups. I'm being honest, it wasn't until I found the one, I connected with you as well that I really felt seen and heard. That was very important. The first time, I was the only military spouse in there. I'm grateful for shifting and changing and more spouses coming along. But I do think that it was our culture and our community that had that just immediate sense of belonging. What I advise you to do is check around in your area. What's available in your area? What's available in your industry? I know that there are Veteran-focused organizations out there. There's also some military spouse ones. I haven't found one that really is best for me, but I think that you got to be willing put to work in and research. What I would say is you got to try on a lot of shoes to find the one that fits the best. It may look bright and shiny and wonderful on the outside, but you put it on, you get blisters. But then on the flip side, there may be one that it might not be quite as bright and shiny or stylish, and it's the best fit you ever had.
[00:24:40.910] - Dr. Jude Black
I think you've been a little bit vulnerable to look around to find organizations, talk with colleagues, talk with cohorts, look for events that are Veteran-based. If you're not in the Veteran realm, look at ones maybe that are executive level, professional level, whatever the industry is, and take a chance and engage in it and talk story with people. Because through the conversation, you might actually find something you did know existed that ends up being the best fit you ever had.
[00:25:12.230] - John Berry
And then talking about finding that fit, this is a perfect segue into the after-action review, leadership. Leadership, I find that it can be situational where you may have a great leader for... We would call them the combat leaders and then the garrison leaders. There are some that were amazing when deployed and not so great when we got back. And there were some that were great in garrison and not once we deployed. And then there were some that were great all around. And so, leadership can be situational. And some leaders perform better in different environments than others and perform better on some teams than on others. But let's talk about the three examples of great leadership and the three examples of bad leadership. Let's hear the three good ones, Dr. Jude.
[00:25:51.970] - Dr. Jude Black
Well, when we started talking about this, again, I simplify everything. I think a great leader is willing to get dirty. I think that they're human, and I think they're teachable. I think that's the best way I can look at how do you define an amazing leader? An amazing leader empowers others. They don't have the insecurity of how they perform. Their end goal is to get the others to rise up and to walk shoulder to shoulder. My best day is someone that I'm mentoring or someone that's working for me, can walk side by side and even out walk me. Because that tells me I've done an amazing job of helping put them into the best version of themself possible. And mirror opposite for a poor leader. They're an island. They don't admit their mistakes. Dictators, not willing to get messy, not willing to do the work, not willing to get in the trenches. They really don't want anyone to walk shoulder to shoulder because they're perceived as a threat.
[00:27:08.640] - John Berry
Great leaders seem to never feel threatened by their team. And weak leaders, it seems like it's a constant struggle. A high performer rises, and they want to beat them down. It seems to me that is the antithesis of leadership. Your job is to build more leaders, build leaders better than you. We get back to where we started, the toxic leader who seems to not like that. I'd love to finish this off with your perspective on that. How do toxic leaders treat their high performers? I know we don't want to get too...as you said, you don't want to get too close to the spotlight. But when toxic leaders see those high performers, how do they treat them?
[00:27:44.540] - Dr. Jude Black
Well, I think that's situational. If the high performers are acting in a way that makes that leader look good and they're able to control that narrative, they're golden. But the minute it shifts, and that high performer may have more accolades, acknowledgement or recognition than they do, they're going to kick them down. I think you've got to choose wisely how you want to navigate through a toxic leadership situation.
[00:28:12.250] - John Berry
When their power is threatened by a high performer, it could be the end for that high performer.
[00:28:19.010] - Dr. Jude Black
It could be the end for that high performer for sure.
[00:28:21.620] - John Berry
Thank you so much, Dr. Jude. Where can people learn more about you or learn about the Appalachian Counseling Center, E-Therapy Cafe, or the Appalachian Trauma and Resiliency Center?
[00:28:32.420] - Dr. Jude Black
Yes. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share that. For E-Therapy Cafe, we are nationwide and worldwide, and we provide life coaching and counseling to anyone that wants us to meet them in their space on their time virtually. That's www.E-TherapyCafe.com. Appalachian Trauma Center--that is our nonprofit. It's the heart of everything that we do. We provide free counseling services to those who serve. You can reach us through wvtrauma.org. Then our counseling center, we're throughout West Virginia and the surrounding states, and we're at wvcounseling.com.
[00:29:16.110] - John Berry
Dr. Jude, are you active on LinkedIn?
[00:29:19.790] - Dr. Jude Black
I am active on LinkedIn. I need to be a little more active, and that is going to be part of my professional development, moving me into the best version of myself.
[00:29:31.010] - John Berry
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we pursue our mission of promoting Veteran leadership in business, strengthening the Veteran community, and getting Veterans all of the benefits that they earn. If you know a leader who should be on the Veteran Led podcast, report to our online community by searching @VeteranLed on your favorite social channels and posting in the comments. We want to hear how your military challenges prepared you to lead your industry or community, and we will let the world know. And of course, hit subscribe and join me next time on Veteran Led.