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Making capital allocation decisions in low information environments and with alot of uncertainty is hard. This show talks to people who do this every day and teases out how to be good at it.
Martin Tobias (00:01.099)
Hi, and this is the first bet where every successful person gets interviewed about how they won. Very few people drag them back to the moment before they knew it would work, when the information was thin, when the money was real, and they pushed their chips in anyway. And that's what we do here at the first bet. I'm Martin Tobias. I made money and replaced bets three ways as a pre-seed VC, as a CEO, and as a poker player.
my guest today is a four-time founder with two IPOs and two acquisitions. and then he decided that wasn't enough, so he raised funds to do it with for other people. Kirby Winfield is the founding and general partner of Ascend VC out of Seattle. He's he backed an autonomous ground vehicle company for the US military when the Seattle VC culture thought defense tech was radioactive.
And that company just closed a hundred million dollar round and landed a big production contract with the military. Hopefully we'll talk about how he placed that bet before it was obvious. Kirby, welcome to the first bet.
Kirby (01:11.49)
Thanks for having me, man. I I've had so much fun over the years, you know, watching you watching you make your bets and rake in the winnings, both at the poker table and and in business. So stoked to stoked to be here and and rap with you a little bit.
Martin Tobias (01:26.765)
totally. Thanks. Yeah, I know we've caught up a lot and I'm looking forward to coming to your founder bash when you have it. So why don't we talk about that one I think was Overland AI. Maybe you could take us back to when you met the team, what your thesis was around that time, and walk us through your thought process, you know, placing that bet before it was obvious.
Kirby (01:50.403)
Yeah, for sure. so when we met, when I met Byron, founder of Overland, I think it was two maybe two thousand twenty-two, we had just raised our second fund at Ascend. and our thesis was you know, or the the category we were focused on was really just enterprise AI. this could be, you know, we we call it SAS three dot So AI native vertical software. And this you might remember people were kind of
Poo-pooing vertical AI as just, you know, thin wrappers on the frontier models. And we just we thought there was gonna be way more value to accrue to you know AI native software than than you know maybe the the three or four labs that were gonna win in the in the model space. And so we were pounding the table about that, I think pretty early. but I, you know, I had made strong proclamations
to our LPs and and anyone else who would listen that I wasn't a hardware investor. and certainly had not really considered defense tech as a sector. and so when I was introduced to Byron, he was still running the autonomy lab at the University of Washington. and he and his team had built software to help vehicles navigate off-road.
And they were using some off-the-shelf sensors, but not creating really any hardware. you know, at the time, of course, the the general consensus was that vehic vehicular autonomy had been solved. you know, the the the the self-driving company's been around for a decade. and and so the idea the idea that you know
Martin Tobias (03:40.709)
Yeah.
Kirby (03:45.741)
you needed a new set of of models and solutions to be able to navigate in these un sort of uncharted, unmapped, dynamic battlefield environments was really kind of a new idea. so met Byron, oddly enough, through a friend who'd been advising him, who had been introduced to him by a prominent Seattle venture investor who did not end up investing in the company.
And so it already kind of was a deal where you go, well, this big investor doesn't think it's that compelling. so okay. but you know, I'd spent a couple years hanging out with a bunch of AI research PhDs at the Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence, where I was the founding investor in residence. So I had kind of a framework for asking questions of a PhD.
Martin Tobias (04:18.821)
Past.
Kirby (04:42.616)
To figure out if they could be a company builder. And so, you know, the team obviously was rock stars. I mean, Byron had sent all his PhD students downstream to Cruz and Waymo for, you know, for years. he was gonna be a talent magnet, the technology was gonna work. They were winning the DARPA racer challenge. so there was a lot of signal around the kinds of things that we like to see. but
Martin Tobias (04:45.836)
Okay. So
Martin Tobias (04:51.278)
Kirby (05:11.48)
You know, the biggest question is building technology and s and working in academia very different than raising venture and scaling a multi-billion dollar company. so we spent a of time talking about what did Byron want, you know, in life and what did he want, and what did he want to achieve? you know, was this innovation for innovation's sake? Was this something he wanted to hand off? or did he want to build a a a company around it and potentially a generational company?
Martin Tobias (05:27.051)
Okay.
Kirby (05:41.931)
And and and then the other sneaking thing I kept on saying was like, okay, well how much hardware do you really have to do here? and you know, they were they were fabricating some of their own hardware and and then slapping it onto the chassis of this vehicle.
And it was the o i at the time it was the only it was the only investment we'd considered making that was that looked like that. to say nothing of the fact that it was defense, right? Which we hadn't done, which which you you may remember the era that we were just coming out of where sort of anything especially in this ecosystem that that spelled like defense or public safety certainly wasn't wasn't gonna win you any pats on the back from from your local LPs.
I
Martin Tobias (06:33.152)
Especially in Seattle, yeah. So how d how did you get to a yes? You found a an academic founder and one of your questions was could he start a real company? You found a guy writing mostly software for a a a new category of autonomous vehicles that nobody had done but other VCs had passed on. How did you get con convinced that to write the check? How how did you get to a yes?
Kirby (06:59.406)
So credit where credit is due, the the my the friend who referred Byron to me was Rob Coneybeer. and he was one of the foun founders of Shasta, which is a really successful venture fund. and so certainly and he's a he's a talented engineer in his own right. so certainly having Rob having spent time with Byron helped me get there faster in terms of
Martin Tobias (07:08.224)
Okay.
Kirby (07:29.398)
understanding you know okay from a technical perspective will will this work does does the you know will the investment get them enough will will the initial investment get them enough powder to be able to build the technology and scale it out and prove it out in the field and so I I would say ro Rob sort of presented us
a lot of technic technical diligence up front. which as a non-technician, you know, I'm an English major and a recovering marketer. I'm always relying on folks in our network to help me make make get smart about those things. so credit where credit is due there. I think
Martin Tobias (08:05.204)
Yeah.
Kirby (08:21.964)
The thing that the thing that got me I I don't know man, it was just first principles. I just look at it I just look at it I go, how many vehicles does the Army you know, Navy, Marine Corps or whoever, deploy on the ground? and it's you know, hundreds of thousands. and some of some of those are very expensive and some of those many of those are being deployed
Martin Tobias (08:41.418)
Yeah.
Kirby (08:50.914)
By war fighters in you know in combat situations where there's real human lives at risk. and so the problem's big enough, the market's big enough, it's urgent, and it's green field, no one else was doing it. And and so that that sort of answered the question that where we go, like if it if it's big enough, what do you what do you say? if it works, does it matter?
Right. Our job as VCs is is is not to be worried too worried about if it doesn't work. If it does work, it can it be can it be the next Andrew? Right. And and even at that time was not Andreil. Andreil was probably worth two billion dollars. But there was there was sort of a little bit of signal around defense starting to to come together as a as a venture backable market. you look downstream and we we said, okay, I think
Martin Tobias (09:20.403)
Right.
Martin Tobias (09:30.238)
Can it be big enough? Yeah. Right.
Kirby (09:47.779)
these highly capital intensive businesses where there is potentially manufacturing involved downstream, you know, there's there's now capital that wants to be in the business of backing those companies. Again, I don't think it was obvious in two thousand twenty two. but you s you could kind of squint and and see see maybe a path to doing something special. but also they could have lost the DARPA Racer Challenge and been out of business. So
Martin Tobias (10:15.347)
Sure, sure.
Kirby (10:15.916)
Like they had not incorporated the company when we when we when we made the bet.
Martin Tobias (10:19.517)
So it was certainly counterintuitive. There were certainly lots of people thinking autonomy was solved, but you took the counter counter view, which is it might be solved for on road cars, but it hasn't been solved for the defense applications that are in greenfield new spaces and stuff like that. And you had some other investors who had validated the team, and you got comfortable that the team wanted to make this switch from academic to company building.
Which for me and when I'm looking at any of those spin-outs is the is the number one question is can this founder be the founder of a real company versus do they just want to do more research? And that gets me to a no on most of those things is that those guys frankly just wanna be more researchers. and but you were able to get through that by having, you know, detailed conver conversations with him. So the case against was pretty obvious having
Other VCs passed, you know, people thinking autonomy was solved, but you d dug in and you know made a counterintuitive bet, which is what you know these kind of early things are are all about. so what were some of the frameworks that you used at the at that time? You already mentioned
that you were participating in a round that was big enough to be able to get answers to the questions. And that's one framework I've heard a lot of people say is that we want we we well there are a lot of questions in this round, if we give them enough money to answer the questions, then the next round of investors. So you know it's not these hand to mouth fundraisings, these, you know, 100,000 here and there. It's let's participate, let let's
Go in eyes open as to what the questions are that we have to answer, give them enough money to make a good shot at answering those questions. So part of it is that you participated in a r in a round that had a reasonable amount of of runway to answer the questions that needed to be answered. What other frameworks did you use to get to a yes?
Kirby (12:28.14)
Yeah, mean I think I think I don't know, it's funny given the the poker yeah analogy, but like we always say what what cards do we want to see turn over? That's another way to think about it. And yeah, it's a capital there to see the cards turn over, but if the cards turn over in the aces, like is that enough? to get the next round. And and so with you know, with defense, it it is it is almost more like life science than it is, you know
Martin Tobias (12:46.191)
Yes.
Kirby (12:57.792)
software, right? Even if it's it's sort of software enabled hardware for defense, it's very it's very tranchy and milest it and even more the milestones are much clearer than they are for like horizontal, you know, AI. so I think that that was helpful. It was new to me to kind of be but it was new to me to look at such a sort of tranche milestones based
Martin Tobias (13:09.475)
Yes.
Kirby (13:27.412)
like future path and then try to sort of underwrite to what you know what do you think they can accomplish those things. but but I mean if you've been, you know, as as you know, if you've been doing like SaaS investing for for long enough, you're you're very comfortable with with blurry milestones. So clear milestones were actually kind of, you know, comforting. you know we talk about is it you know if it if it if it if it works does it matter. I think
Martin Tobias (13:49.144)
Good, yeah.
Martin Tobias (13:56.054)
If it works, does it matter?
Kirby (13:57.261)
That's another thing that, you know I've that's one thing I've learned.
Is a great first qualifier for an idea. you know, assuming that you, assuming that you love the founder's background and they feel like, you know, an incisive VC founder or an Ascend VC founder, whatever those, you know, kind of esoteric archetypes that we define might be, you know, then then just really trying to figure out what's the ceiling on this thing. is there a ceiling on it?
And I think another thing that we've we've we took away from you know that we applied for from a framework perspective to the overland investment that we now try to use more more frequently is do we feel sick do I feel sick to my stomach making this bet? Like in other words, am I worried that two years from now or th or three years from now, the thing that they're working on just won't be backable? Right? It's like nobody's really
We just made an investment in a company doing converged security. This is this is basically physical security for critical infrastructure. So this is means human guard teams working with drones, working with an AI-enabled software stack. Okay. We felt v very uncertain about that. That's a solved problem, right, for the last 20 years. There are massive like incumbents that are doing it. They're not particularly worth a lot of money. And so, like a a sort of quant.
Martin Tobias (15:11.905)
Yes.
Kirby (15:29.474)
VC coming in and looking that opportunity, we just go, Tam's not there, right? But we go, Yeah, but you know, this space hasn't been disrupted. And and actually the space, like the tailwinds, the macro tailwinds for the for the space as a whole are huge. The threat surface is huge. The founder was right. And so, but but we were like, I don't know, they could do everything right and then still not raise money.
Martin Tobias (15:57.625)
Still not be worth it. So so what is the answer you're looking for in the does it make me sick two years from now? Do you want it to make you sick or not sick? I'm a little confused.
Kirby (16:06.19)
I wanna feel sick. I wanna feel nervous. If it's obvious, i you know, if I'm if I'm doing like a neo lab investment in two thousand twenty six, it just feels too easy. You know? And it it it
Martin Tobias (16:20.36)
Yeah. You want it to be a little uncomfortable when you write the check because there's lots of people telling you you're stupid, lots of people telling you you're crazy, lots of people telling you it's already solved. yeah, so you want to be a little uncomfortable. I like I like that. I like that. So thanks for explaining the the the overland and how and how you wrote that. Maybe you know you did
Kirby (16:33.154)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's yeah, that's that's
Martin Tobias (16:43.698)
You know, investments before you were a CEO and then you'd fund one, fund two, you're doing fund three, which is gonna be quite a bit bigger. Maybe you could tell me over the last sort of ten or fifteen years, how has your decision framework evolved? You just mentioned one that you applied from overland, but are there other things you can think of of that how you make decisions today that are maybe different from how you made decisions ten years ago?
Kirby (17:09.89)
Yeah, yeah. I I think I mean I think the first thing that comes to mind is the sequence of of sort of evaluation criteria and the weights that you put on those criteria. So I think when I started it was it was market
product founder in that order. I was like, I'd I'd be like, man, this is a huge market and market slash problem, right? Huge market, big problem. wow, the technology solves the problem. And then I'm like, the founder seems good. But a lot of times I'd be like, well, the founder seems good. I'm not sure I agree with how they're positioning it. Or you know I'm not sure that they're you know
Martin Tobias (17:49.212)
Mm-hmm.
Kirby (17:59.559)
I they're doing what I would do to go to market or how to sell it. And that's just red flags, red flags, red flags. Right. And and I learned very quickly it's not mu it's it you you're not investing in the company that you would build, like you're investing in the company that they're gonna build. And if that's and if that's what you're investing in, then really you're just investing in the founder. And so we've completely flipped it on its head where it's as long as the founder's not doing something that violates our LPA, like if they're the right
Martin Tobias (18:14.898)
They're gonna build.
Martin Tobias (18:26.929)
Yeah.
Kirby (18:27.616)
If they're the right person and they have
Kirby (18:33.44)
a b a big enough vision and they have some secret knowledge and they are a talent magnet and they project to be able to raise money from tier one venture. because let's face it, if you're gonna build a five ten billion dollar plus company, you are going to need to raise that money.
Martin Tobias (18:54.811)
Yeah.
Kirby (18:57.548)
Then then if we if we believe in all those things, then we can maybe spend a little bit of time, you know, digging into the the market and the G Yeah, but we but we we a and I will say so that's number one. Number two,
Martin Tobias (19:05.946)
The market, the problem, the solution, the technology. Yeah. Yeah.
Kirby (19:17.932)
We've moved entirely to I I mean there with very, very, very few exceptions, we back technical founders because I don't want to underwrite technical execution risk. I'm willing to underwrite like technical research risk, right? So if it's an inception stage company that's at the idea stage and the people did it before something similar before and like they've got the chops, I'm willing to I'm willing to, you know, they they may not deliver the product, but like almost always the product gets delivered. Almost always the product works.
Martin Tobias (19:29.05)
Risk.
Kirby (19:46.543)
Right. That's that's it's usually the problem isn't we want to be in the business of backing founders where the technology isn't the problem. The technology isn't what kills the company. Like, like the it the what what kills the company needs to be like we were too early, or we you know, we we couldn't get the problem solution fit right. or maybe the problem wasn't as big as we thought, or as urgent as we thought.
Like that's what we're kind of underwriting, from a risk perspective. whereas I think, you know, initially I backed a lot of non technical founders doing technical things with technical co founders or like founding engineers and and and maybe or or technical founders who didn't have the pedigree. And that is a tough road to hoe. and so I think that's another
Martin Tobias (20:30.712)
That didn't work out.
Martin Tobias (20:38.786)
Are you still backing mostly technical founders or do you I think the convergence one, the that guy is a little more of a business founder?
Kirby (20:46.538)
So actually no, almost almost exclusively technical founders. The the converged security deal, he was he was a CTO at NASA and Los Alamos. so so actually highly technical guy, raised raised venture for a security business before and cybersecurity business. So yeah, I think in the current fund we've made maybe thirteen bets and I wanna say five or six of the founders are PhDs from Carnegie or the UW.
Martin Tobias (20:56.57)
yeah.
Kirby (21:14.902)
So yeah, that's it. Last last deal actually, two PhDs from Stanford. So, you know, I think that's something I've gotten more comfortable with is it and having some pattern recognition around which which of the PhD archetypes, you know, are gonna be able to build a company.
Martin Tobias (21:30.829)
can convert into running a company versus just a researcher. Yeah. That that that's a rare skill and it's something that that requires reps to build. I wanted to move on now to y you know, you were a founder a couple of times and and had some exits, but writing checks into somebody else's company and getting the confidence to do that is, you know, a a different skill set.
Kirby (21:34.348)
Yeah, yeah.
Martin Tobias (21:56.567)
Where do you think the confidence to become a capital allocator for you came from the thinking you could be good at backing somebody else?
Kirby (22:06.274)
so it's two things. I think, you know, one is I I just every time I've done a company, I've just assumed it's gonna work. Like like whether it was, you know, joining I have good fortune joining the founding team at at my first two companies, and scaling them from you know six people to a thousand plus and taking them public. And
And I think, you know, aside from that just great being great good fortune and you know teaching me some valuable lessons about you know building companies, it also gave me this insane confidence that you know it's it's always gonna work. Like that's all it does is and and you know, and and the two companies I ran as CEO and sold were less successful, but they worked. and so I think, you know, and and I think
Martin Tobias (22:48.438)
It's always gonna work. It it worked for you, so yeah.
Kirby (23:06.552)
Things th so I think I just have irrational confidence that things will work out.
Now, when you're giving up the reins and you're sort of you're betting on people to make it work and on their their own instead of betting on yourself to make it work, what you what you find in in our business, you know, it's but it usually doesn't work. so that's where the second piece comes in where I I'm a gambler. Like I'm a I'm a i I always make the analogy like doing early stage venture, you have to be like a jump shooter on a cold streak who wants the ball.
Martin Tobias (23:29.536)
Yeah.
Kirby (23:43.488)
at the end of the game with the game tied. Like I just don't care. Like, give me the ball. Like I I yep I
Martin Tobias (23:49.706)
Give me the ball, I wanna take the shot, even if it's a low probability shot.
Kirby (23:53.327)
And and I missed even if I missed the last eighteen of the last nineteen shots, give me the ball. And I think that's that you know, that's my that's just my attitude. That's how I live my life. Like, I don't f I'm naturally built to get over losses pretty quickly. and I'm insanely driven to to have big wins. you know, and that's that's I think that's a gambling mentality that
Probably I'm not sure it it would scale to, you know, sort of growth stage venture investing, but I think the inception stage, like you you gotta have that in some form or fashion.
Martin Tobias (24:31.388)
You Yeah, you've got to be willing to take that a asymmetric risk because your downside is capped and your upside is not. So let me talk the next thing about what are the gremlins you think that break good decisions. You mentioned already one of them that when you started you thought more about the market than the people, and now you think more about the people than the market. What are some other things that that people get wrong?
about making those pre pre seed bets? Is it YOLOing b between behind, you know, big fund A? Is it what what are some things people do wrong in early stage venture to pick?
Kirby (25:16.798)
yeah, I think one thing people get wrong, I've gotten it wrong, is is taking comfort f taking comfort fro from the participation of a multi-stage firm in a in a pre-seed round or a seed round. Like what I've just learned that that's an optionality check. you know, they'll tell you that they're the the partner is gonna be on the deal and then you know, three months in it's the associate. so
I think that there's and there's a corollary to that. Don't get too excited about your series A's because that's just their venture math plays out the same way ours does. So you know, Sequoia leads a series A, they've they're writing, you know, 20 series A's out of that fund. And they project two of those to return the fund. So so guess what? You can't you really shouldn't be that excited about your companies that get tier one series A's.
Martin Tobias (26:08.475)
Yes.
Kirby (26:18.05)
That's not a mistake. That's more just like expectation management. But but but yeah, so I think th seeing multistage on cap table at seed as as signal is just a it's not useful. And sometimes the opposite. other gremlins in the in the decision making process.
Martin Tobias (26:21.883)
Yeah.
Kirby (26:42.38)
Yeah, I mean, I I think you can really get tripped up, especially as, you know, we write smaller checks, right? I'm writing 500k checks and even a million to two million dollar preceed, even if we're like, you know, no notionally leading the round, or we're but we're most often going to be behind a bigger check at the end of the day. And so I think one mistake is waiting to see who that check is.
Martin Tobias (26:51.024)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (27:12.559)
Mm-hmm.
Kirby (27:13.326)
Waiting to see if that check comes. I am I've I've learned like I I'm just trying to shove my five hundred K in on a note. I don't care who else is investing. I do care. We all care. But I don't wanna know. because if I feel like I need to know who else is investing, then I shouldn't make the investment. That's not then I'm not doing my job. I'm not doing what I'm special and good at. Like it's my taste, it's my gut, it's my my algorithm.
Martin Tobias (27:33.231)
Right.
Kirby (27:42.155)
And the minute I start outsourcing that to someone else, like I'm doing my my LPs and myself a disservice. And I but it's hard. It's hard when you have that the the next day after you, you know, sign and wire and you're like, is anyone else gonna back this company? Like, am I insane? And then sometimes and then we've had it where we literally, you know, we we make the decision totally naked and
Martin Tobias (27:57.922)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kirby (28:08.952)
Two days later they get into YC and a week later they've raised into 3X. And then we there's been times where you make the decision totally naked. And it's like, all right, we've got a couple other angels coming in and now we gotta go make some progress. So but but I think that's where what they the what's the the trope is VC's about be being being contrary and right.
Martin Tobias (28:37.645)
Yes. You gotta be contrarian and right. And w one of the things I hear you saying is make your own decision and don't overweight the, you know, other factors, other people in the round or whatever, like that. that's something I've I've I've heard a lot is to for these high low information decisions you have to make your own decision. You can talk to other people and understand, but you have to rely on your own
Kirby (28:38.571)
And so
Martin Tobias (29:06.871)
decision frameworks because relying on other people's decision frameworks is just very, very risky. Yeah.
Kirby (29:16.93)
Yeah, yeah. And then I think the la the thing I the last thing that that I I you know you kind of know inherently, but you've real I've really learned is
If you're backing a team that's not in the valley and you're doing AI, you better be you better do your own diligence and really understand who else has been funded who's doing anything that smells like what they're doing. Because if if you're not one of the three or four teams that's that's already raised in a space that's that's a red ocean and you're and you're doing it, you know, out outside of the sort of echo chamber, it's just a capital raising challenge. Like it you could be better than the other teams. It doesn't matter.
Martin Tobias (29:40.267)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (29:49.664)
Outside the valley.
Kirby (29:56.867)
half the time. so I think it goes back to the the the framework of like, you know, is this truly novel? you know, is it is it is it is it truly something that no one else is working on? Because the founder will tell you always tell you that. And they'll say, yeah these guys raise these guys. Yeah yeah.
Martin Tobias (30:13.887)
you have to do you have to do your own research to see if that's the case. Yeah. I I am always astounded by how many founders don't have a good understanding of who else is building in their space. I hear pitches that I've heard ten times and I'm like, I've heard this pitch ten times and they're like, We're the only one doing it. I'm like, No, you're not. Like you you you your your awareness of your own market is incredibly low.
And sometimes that's because they're focused on building something. Sometimes it's just because they're first-time founders. but yeah, if you're deciding to to to write that check, you have to make sure that they understand, you know, the competitive environment that they're getting into, even if they don't in in the in the beginning. Okay. All right. Well, great. I think we've got a lot of good ways to to think about that. What if if you were
Yes, if if there was a new VC or another or an angel investor coming to you and saying, what are the one or two things that frameworks that I should think about that builds on all the things you've learned at deploying capital at Extend, what would those be that you would tell a new investor how to pick early stage venture things going forward?
Kirby (31:34.85)
I mean I think
It's kind of a two parter. It's first of all, it's founder first, right? So just just a hundred thousand percent founder. And and if it's the right founder, you gotta back them. I I the the corollary to that is what I've learned is it's not the it's not my job to be smart about what you're doing. It's my job to be smart about you and your capacity to build something meaningful.
Martin Tobias (31:42.176)
Founder first.
Kirby (32:07.682)
That's my job. So my biggest misses have been where I thought, I'm not smart enough about data center energy management. example. or, you know, gosh, I don't really understand like fleet management in the in the automotive space. Like, and there's generational companies being built that I could have invested in, but I talked myself out of them because I thought that I had to be.
some sort of subject matter expert to invest. And what I've learned is I just need to be an expert at understanding founder capacity. And and so that's that's the big that is the that's the biggest thing from an anti-portfolio perspective. and just getting out of your own way. and so and and but that that all comes back around like just just
Martin Tobias (32:43.518)
People.
Kirby (33:02.348)
Find the best founders you can invest in. Now we all have different marketing and different positioning, and we like to say we do different things. But at the end of the day, I invest in the most compelling best founders that I see in a given time period doing something that's that you know is not antithet ant antithetical to you know what a send is trying to invest in. Yeah.
Martin Tobias (33:17.778)
That's the
Martin Tobias (33:22.322)
This is that.
the the values you have. Okay. Great. Those are those are good frameworks to remember and I appreciate it. thanks for your time. Hope you feel better, continue to feel better and I look forward to seeing you at the Founders Bash.
Kirby (33:40.331)
Amen. Yeah, September seventeenth. We'll be we'll all be there. Thanks for coming. All right, man.
Martin Tobias (33:44.176)
All right.