Small HVAC Company? Here's How to Beat the Big Guys at Their Own Game

Rob Rotondo, fractional CMO and HVAC marketing veteran, breaks down exactly how to build a profitable marketing program from scratch—whether you're doing $2M or $12M in revenue. Learn why most marketing campaigns fail in the first 30 days, how to leverage manufacturer brands for better ROI, the real truth about website performance in the AI era, and why sales and marketing alignment is the secret sauce to explosive growth. Plus, Steven shares the $36,000 marketing strategy that competitors literally couldn't copy. If you're tired of throwing money at marketing with nothing to show for it, this conversation will change how you think about growing your HVAC business.

Interested in becoming a Trane dealer? Visit us at partners.trane.com to learn more about how you can partner with a leader in HVAC innovation. Explore opportunities to elevate your business and stay ahead in the market with Trane!

Want to reach out to us? Email us at [e-mail].

Creators and Guests

Host

Mary Carter

Mary Carter is a seasoned sales and marketing leader with over six years at Trane Technologies, currently serving as Regional Sales Manager. With a strong foundation in RHVAC, consumer finance, and strategic account management, Mary brings valuable insights and real-world experience to every conversation.

Host

Stephen Ross

Stephen Ross is a dynamic sales trainer and leadership coach with over nine years at Sandler Training. A former HVAC business owner, Stephen combines his technical knowledge with proven sales expertise, offering a unique perspective on what it takes to succeed in the RHVAC industry.

Producer

Jessica Blair

Jessica Blair is a Senior Learning Manager at Trane Technologies' Residential HVAC unit. With 20+ years of experience in learning and development, she designs and markets blended learning programs to enhance customer learning and align with business goals.

Editor

Kerianne O'Donnell

Kerianne O'Donnell is the Digital Learning Manager at Trane Technologies and serves as the editor of the HVAC Full Blast podcast. With a background in graphic design and a strong passion for developing digital learning experiences, Kerianne brings her creative expertise to the podcast, delivering engaging and impactful content to listeners.

Guest

Robert Rotondo

Robert Rotondo is the CEO of Robert Anthony Consulting and a seasoned growth advisor with over 15 years’ experience scaling home services businesses. A former HVAC marketing leader, Robert specializes in helping leadership teams align people, systems, and strategy to create sustainable, repeatable growth—without the chaos. He partners directly with CEOs and executives to turn ambition into traction by focusing on what truly drives the business forward.

What is HVAC Full Blast?

HVAC Full Blast is your bi-weekly dose of HVAC business growth, powered by Trane. Hosted by Mary Carter (Trane Technologies) and Stephen Ross (Sandler), this podcast is built for residential HVAC dealers who want to scale their business, sharpen their sales, and lead with confidence.

Tune in for expert interviews, dealer success stories, and practical tips on pricing, service agreements, workforce development, and more. Whether you're in the field or in the office, HVAC Full Blast helps you stay ahead in a competitive market.

Interested in becoming a Trane Dealer? Visit our website at https://partners.trane.com/

We'd love your feedback and suggestions on future episodes. Please email us at [e-mail].

This podcast channel is for general informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed in these episodes are those of the panelists and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Trane Technologies. Trane Technologies makes no warranty or guarantee concerning accuracy or completeness of the content presented in this webinar.

Trane does not provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. This material is for informational purposes only and it should not be relied on for tax, legal, or accounting advice. Tax law is subject to continual change. All decisions are your responsibility and you should consult your own tax, legal, and accounting advisors. Trane disclaims any responsibility for actions taken on the material presented.

All trademarks referenced are the trademarks of their respective owners. ©2025 Trane. All Rights Reserved.

Join hosts Mary Carter and
Stephenen Ross as they sit down

with Rob Rotondo, CEO of
Robert Anthony Consulting,

for a masterclass in
HVAC marketing strategy.

From bootstrapping a brand with
nothing but a website budget to

competing against
industry giants,

Rob shares battle tested
insights on building marketing

programs that
actually drive growth.

Whether you're a startup trying
to create your first Google

business page or an established
contractor looking to optimize

your marketing spend and align
sales with your campaigns,

this episode delivers the
practical guidance you need to

grow smarter, not just bigger.

Let's get started.

Welcome back to another
episode of HVAC Full Blast.

My name is Mary Carter.

I'm Steven Ross.

We've got a guest. So let
me introduce our guests.

So with us today, Rob Rotondo,

who is CEO, founder,
Robert Anthony Consulting,

which Rob helped me out,

essentially means you're a
fractional chief marketing officer.

So you're working for
lots of big companies,

some smaller companies just doing
kind of big picture consulting.

Is that right?

Yeah. That's exactly right.

Cut my teeth in HVAC
early on and, you know,

now with with this
consulting company,

I work in all
different industries,

but also still HVAC.

I mean, that's, you
know, selfishly,

that's my that's my passion.

Love that industry.
But, yeah, spot on.

And some of the other
industries are related in the

sense that they're residential.

I mean, it's whether it's windows
or siding or roofing or pest

control or something
like that, garage doors,

it's all kind of in
home residential sales.

Is that is that correct?

Yep. That's correct.

Nice. Nice. What so here's
Mary, let me tell you a story.

So Rob and I met, I think,
in two thousand eleven.

I have not seen him since
two thousand eleven,

but we stayed in touch on
LinkedIn and social media.

And then about two months ago,
I called him and said, man,

we'd love to get
you on the podcast.

We caught up a little bit,

and I'm sitting in the
airport in Nashville.

And this and I'm I'm, like,

looking at my phone
because I'm just scrolling,

waiting for the
the plane to board.

And some dude walks
up and is, like,

awkwardly close in
my personal space.

And I'm like, this
is getting weird.

So I look up and it's Rob.

And then I'm like, I haven't
seen him in fifteen years.

And Oh my gosh.

And so we ran into each other a
month ago after I had said, hey.

Come be on our podcast.
So that's kinda funny.

Yeah.

Rob, when you got the call
to come on the podcast,

were you like,
who's this number?

Like, that's crazy.

You know, from Steven, true
true man with, you know,

he's been in sales industry
his entire life, but this man,

I don't think has ever
changed his phone number.

And so I did, know, when I
saw him call me, like Steven Ross,

okay, wow, that literally,

it's been years since I've
talked to him other than the

LinkedIn channels.

But yeah, if that moment didn't
tell you that that was some sort of

divine experience to randomly
run into him in a random

airport, I don't know what did.

And that is a true
story, promise.

Yeah. That's amazing.

So here's, alright, so let
me kind of set the stage

because this is why I
wanted to have you on.

There's a couple reasons.

One, you're an expert
in marketing, but two,

I want you to tell kind of the
story of how we met because

I'm gonna make up some numbers
and they're not gonna be right.

So correct me if I'm wrong.

So Rob was running marketing
for a heating and air company

in Detroit, Michigan.

And in two thousand seven,

you guys did six thousand new
homes of new construction.

Does that does that number
sound about right, Rob?

Something around there. Yep.

Wow.

So two thousand and seven,

six thousand homes.

Then all of a sudden
two thousand and eight hits.

I mean, economy crashes, new
construction grinds to a halt.

And so all of a sudden
you guys were like, hey,

all new business plans
starting tomorrow.

We're gonna go take
care of existing homes.

And so literally
pivoted on a dime,

switched business models
and just said, hey,

we'll still continue to do a
little bit of new construction.

And I don't remember
what the number was,

but I think in like
two thousand and eight,

maybe you did like two hundred
or three hundred homes compared

to six thousand.

But you pivoted and you had
to start from scratch and

build a residential
retail customer base,

you needed to sell
maintenance agreements,

you needed service techs
to do the maintenance.

You didn't just need an army
of installers that were getting

paid per piece like you
do in new construction.

Rob, so just how did you pivot?

What were some of
the lessons learned?

Just put us back in
time a little bit.

I mean, how did that work out?

Yeah.

So even better and and
appreciate the intro there and

and some context.

I think even better on
that side, you know,

the timeline was I joined
that business in twenty ten.

And so they have come out of
the two thousand and seven,

two thousand and eight
economic dismantling,

whatever you want to call it.

This company to set the
stage was, you know,

the bellwether of new construction
install in the market.

They were doing volume
that was almost unheard of.

And so the entire business
was predicated on new construction

builder relationships.

Everybody knows what
happened in 'seven,

'eight, we don't
have to go there.

But I joined after
college thinking,

this is a great career,

let's get into HVAC coming out
of a complete spin around or

one hundred eighty in
the business direction.

But I'll say, with the founders
of that company and their

direction, I mean, think they
really understood that, hey,

we need to go over
with customers.

We need to take this and
turn it into a brand.

They started to see, you know,

inklings of this
is opportunistic,

like here we are trying to please
builders and go through that process.

There's nothing wrong with new
construction, by the way, just,

you know, you're solely
predicated on that for your

business, you start
with as with anything,

if you're focused on one thing,

that one thing gets interrupted,

you're going to have challenges.

So, they started to experiment
in the retail side and started

to say, okay, well, we
think that we have something here.

And so I had met
these owners and I

was doing marketing work for
them, graphic design work,

and just getting out of college
and trying to figure out life

and who do I want to go into
majoring in marketing and

business and wanted to
go in that direction.

And, you know, was easily coerced
into joining this HVAC company.

And it was awesome.

Think, you know, as much of
headwind that was in front of

us, it was like clean canvas
or blank canvas, you know,

what do we need to start doing?

And so that not only was my
first introduction to the trades,

but it was my first
introduction to a professional

career with a ton of pressure on me
to try to build this with this group.

And so it was starting from
ground zero with like we had

the marketing
budget was website,

That was essentially like
what we were working with.

And so it was like,

we were at a point in time
where there was no formalized

marketing budget.

And so it was really an
opportunity to say, okay, well,

let's test a few things.

Let's start seeing what might work
and then kind of go from there.

And so I use this line a
lot when I work with clients

because, you know,
I have experience,

but that's only because I've screwed
up way more than any of them ever will.

We had to test model reset.

The great thing about this
business that I was with is

that they understood like
they had no other choice.

So, know, it was test,

succeed or fail and
then keep going forward.

And so it was a really cool
eye opener for us to just start

from ground zero.

And so I kind of take
that approach a lot into client

engagements today, even though
the businesses that I work

with, you know,
more sophisticated,

it's more modern day marketing,

it's easily accessible compared
to when it was when I was started.

But a lot of that does kind of

revolve around, you know, let's
look at the basics first, right?

I think that goes into a lot of stuff
that we'll probably talk about today.

But to me, I always revert back
to that starting point because the

foundation is what is
important to build off of.

And no matter what
your business is,

now that I'm in
multi industries,

it's still the same complex.

You have to start with basics.

You have to make sure
that that's covered.

And then sky's the
limit in most cases.

When you say that that
first budget was website,

do you remember how
much money it was?

How?

Oh, that's a good question.

I don't Three
figures? Four figures?

You know,

know, it wasn't a ton.

It wasn't that much. And that
was what I had to work with.

It was funny because
that was the joke.

Because as we were evolving
and creating new initiatives,

it was always like, take it
out of the website budget.

And so that sort of evolved
into our full marketing spend.

But it just shows you
like, as you go to today,

there are so many different
areas that you can divert funds

and allocate funds to.

And sometimes it is just,
hey, something simple,

like just watch it, track it,
either optimize or replace it.

Know, a lot of companies kind of
get stuck in that cycle because it

is overwhelming at times, right?

But I'm always humbly reminded
of what I had to work with,

you know, on day one.

Yeah. So alright. Blank slate.
You're starting from scratch.

I mean, you guys have a very
well established existing

company, but your quote
unquote brand was only well

known to builders,

not to the homeowners
that bought the the homes.

How what what was your I mean,

on one hand so we when we think
about marketing, lot of times,

we're talking about branding,

and then also just kinda
that direct response,

running a promotion,

trying to get a customer to
respond to a phone number or a

click or something like that.

So you you had to
do both at once.

There wasn't an existing brand,

so you had to create a brand
and then do all the typical

marketing that you would do to
get to get homeowners to respond.

How did you let's
start with branding.

How did you build a
brand from scratch?

Yeah, good question.

So, you know, thinking
through that process,

we had had sort of a head start
because this company was doing

thousands and thousands
of installs a year.

And so we were able
to put, I mean,

this group knew furnace
stickers were a thing.

And so we were putting furnace
stickers on furnaces in these areas.

And so we started planting
seeds really for our future.

But I was at the company long
enough to see a lot of those

come to fruition
on the turnaround.

So it was kind of cool to see some
of those old stickers come back.

And we would always joke
because we obsessed about the

furnace stickers.

And so like the ownership,

we would always go back and
maybe tweak one little thing

and to them that meant
everything, right?

And so you have
to start evolving.

If you're going B2C,

you've got a lot of other
channels to start working to

get customers in, not
just a furnace sticker,

or even your trucks.

Like we never thought of logoing
trucks for the sake of customers,

we were technically builder
customers for the most part.

And so the ownership really started
getting ahead of it where, you know,

they utilize their name
and everything like that,

but they wanted to start to
get that out into the public.

So we started refabricating,
you know, truck wraps,

what customers are seeing,

that website that was more or
less catered to builders like,

Hey, check out our website.

It was funny because as we went
through it and if you ever get

a chance to use the
site Wayback Machine,

you can go back
to that timeframe.

And it's a site that goes
back to historical archives of

websites and you can do this
with a lot of brands but it's

funny because you can see the
complete change in tonality,

can see the complete change
in language because we're not

targeting builders.

It used to say or we used
to say hey go check out our

website you can see the work
that we do for other builders.

Now it's like, okay, we've got
to completely change how we go

through that process, how
we communicate to customers.

So a lot of that focus went
to, okay, we have a website,

we need to fix the way that
it communicates to customers.

That was step one.

Then it was like, okay,
nobody's coming to our website.

What do we do?

You know, we've got
trucks on the road,

we've got all these furnace
stickers that we're not going

to care about right now,
because they don't matter.

Then we started getting in,

that was twenty ten-eleven was
when Google really was like,

you know, you can you
could get into it.

You know, I remember we started
this company with a Google AdWords

Express account.

Some marketers will
know what that is,

most will not even know,

but that is your
introduction to Google Ads.

And it is like one hundred
one, like you've set up the account,

I remember setting
up the account name,

building everything, who
do you want to target?

And then I'm like, okay,
let's pick a five mile radius,

you know, it was like,
that's how it started.

And you know, honestly,
we kept to the basics.

Mean, at that time I was
really learning Google.

And I remember the
owners were like,

do you know what you're doing?

I'm like, I'm able
to measure it.

I'm able to see if
we're winning or losing.

So yeah, I think I do.

And so we ended up, you know,

gradually working
through that process.

And then it was like, okay,

we were able to generate
some form of leads, nothing crazy.

Then it was about, okay,

we need more people to
know about our brand.

And we, what was cool was we
literally walked through this.

It was like bubblegum and twine,

like we were trying to figure
out, okay, we have visibility,

we have website clips,
we don't have leads,

more people need to know
about us, what do we do?

So it was like, do
we invest in TV yet?

Do we look at other forms
of large form marketing?

We started doing magazines,
printed publications.

We ended up eventually getting
into TV and really trying to

scale in with that.

And that's where we really
started to see some harmony

between all the marketing
initiatives that we were building.

And, you know, as we grew
again, it was exciting,

also nerve wracking, but
you start to realize that,

as you grow, your marketing
strategy changes, right?

And I know that sounds like
a really dumb comment until I

explain it, but when you get
to that five million dollars mark,

it's about lead generation,

it's about clarity and what's
actually working and then executing.

Like, people forget to
get to five million,

you have to
operationally deliver.

Marketing can't do it.

Marketing is not gonna
put in the equipment.

It's not gonna
schedule the calls.

Like, you have to really,
like, work on operations.

And so as much as it was stressful
to build a marketing program,

it was also stressful keeping
up operationally to deliver on

new contacts.

That's so true.

I had a similar experience
at a startup company,

and the better we got at our
our marketing, our website.

And I I don't think I was on
express, but I Google AdWords.

I can remember sitting in my
desk bidding on words like they

were stocks and, like,

looking at tickers of
how words were doing.

And, like, the CEO would call
him down the hallway and be

like, did did you use this word?

And I'd be like, I don't know.

And like like, it was So crazy,

crazy time.

But but it was like for his
for every investment and

improvement we made and having a
customer being able to find us,

we had to be that much better
on the ops end because they

didn't wanna come find
us, do business with us,

and then have a bad experience.

They wanted to come
find us, use us,

and walk away satisfied.

And I I think that's an amazing distinction
that you're pulling through there.

Because we always talk about
marketing as like this unseen

ROI, right? Like how do
I figure out the ROI?

But a lot of times the
ROI comes through with how you

handle them on the ops side.

That's so true.

And I think a lot of times too,
I'll work with clients where,

you know, everybody's gonna say
it's always a leads problem.

I'm sure you've heard that in
engagements too with other companies.

But, you know, when you look
at things like, okay, well,

what's conversion rate?

What's your booking rate?

Ultimately, what's
your closing rate?

And you know, you
have, there's industry benchmarks everywhere,

but you know, you start to find
those gaps where it's like,

well, you know, if you
improve the booking rate,

then all of a sudden marketing
starts to make sense.

Then you're, you know,
you can execute better.

Now closing starts
to make sense.

And so when I jumped out
into my own world with my own

company, I operate
as a fractional CMO,

as you said, Steven, but I
do try to bridge the gap between

sales, bridge the gap
between call centers.

I mean, I've helped
stand up call centers.

I've helped manage sales teams.

And I think being able to kind
of expose myself to all sorts

of different areas,
like you said, Mary,

I think that's what really
generates growth at any level,

like being able to
understand the mechanics.

That's why I love HVAC because
it is such a cog and wheel

system where so many different
things have to work together.

And when they do, it's magic.

When they don't, you're in for some
long meetings and lots of discussions.

But ultimately, can kind of
boil it up where you know,

you gotta start
optimizing all things,

not just one to get the
benefit of it, you know?

So let's say Mary and I start
a company and it's gonna

be Mary and Steven's
Heating and Air Company.

We're starting from scratch.

Wow. Obviously.

We got a real original name.

Do you love our Yeah.

We might need some help with
the branding and naming.

TV, right?

Mean, you mentioned like, do
we have enough money to do?

I mean, obviously,
TV's out, radio's out,

like some of those big
things we just can't afford.

We're super small.

Give us like what
is the foundation?

Because you said, hey,

you're you're going to have a
different marketing program at

at two million than you do at five
million than you do at ten million.

Not just you're
doing more of it.

It's a completely different
marketing program.

So start small. We're help us
help us get a good foundation.

What would you include?

Yeah.

I guess my only question
would be is Google Ads Express

allowed or I'm just kidding.

You know, I think that that's a
great question and you know from

a I'll give you one more.

Our marketing budget is website.

Yeah. All right.
Now I'm comfortable.

I feel like I can
work with this.

So, you know, oddly enough,

website is some of these
things that from a startup

side, like you don't
have a ton to invest.

I think with
marketing investments,

there's always that time to
get to your results, right?

You invest ten thousand dollars
today or whatever you invest

today, You're not
gonna see it tomorrow.

We wish we could.

And believe me, I
have owners that say,

where's that marketing
investment coming in?

Like it's like,
it's been two days.

Like we gotta let things set up.

But from a startup side,
like businesses now,

it's easy to start up a new
company, but like the basics,

again, it's not difficult to
get a website up nowadays.

It's not difficult to get a
truck wrapped and branded right.

You can work with that
even if, with AI and Canva,

you can be really dangerous.

When you start building a brand,

you start having your truck
that's visible on the road now,

you can start a Google business page
and then you can start social channels.

Like all of that stuff
could fit into our website budget.

You look at starting
up a business,

because at the beginning it's
about just lead generation.

And I think a lot of
customers too nowadays,

being local and small is not
necessarily a disadvantage.

I think if you have that right
connection to the community and

like when you're a small
business, you're not saying, okay,

I'm gonna take a three fifty
square mile market and serve it.

You know that
that's not possible.

You're taking a five mile
square market or five square

mile market and saying, I'm gonna
be everywhere in this market.

I'm gonna show up to
the community events.

I'm gonna show up
to, know, I'm gonna,

my neighbors are
gonna know about me.

I'm gonna sponsor a
school breakfast thing.

Like those are things that are
not incredibly expensive that

really do draw impressions
that are engaged.

You know, there's impressions
that are just delivered,

which are like your mainstream,
like if you see an ad great,

but are you engaged with it?

Those types of things often
have more power to them.

And ironically enough,

those are the things that
the bigger companies find it more

difficult to stay disciplined
with because of their size.

And that's where those
strategies shift.

But yeah, so your company,
Mary and Stevens HVAC,

like start with a website,
start with a truck,

you can come up with logos or
something that's memorable and

to start a Google business page
and social channels and start

making like video content,
that's not expensive.

And again, it's easy to start getting
engaged with your audience and

start generating
leads that way too.

So I'm just taking notes.

So website, probably step
one, vehicle wrap, step two.

Make sure your Google My
Business page is sharp,

looks good, all
that kind of stuff.

And then the socials.
So Facebook, Instagram.

I mean, I I don't
know what else.

Is there Your TikTok.

TikTok. Oh, TikTok. Yeah. I
mean, that's how old I am.

Didn't even think of TikTok.

Alright. TikTok.
Right? What else?

I mean, are those the would
you prioritize TikTok over

Instagram or Facebook?

I mean, I'm probably at the
age where I still like Facebook and

Instagram more than TikTok.

You know,

you're still, you know,

you're getting TikTok is going
to have a future audience of

customers as well.

I mean, gosh, I still
know, I know like fifty,

sixty year olds
that are on TikTok.

So I mean, I guess I should take that
back because they've honestly gained

more share in that
age group too.

So it does make it a
palatable marketing source to

start bringing
into your business.

And again, remember,
you're a small business.

So those are the things
where it's that intimate connection

with potential customers.

That's your advantage right now
and it won't be here forever.

So those are the things
that I think you prioritize.

And I think CRMs often

not necessarily
tied to marketing,

but it's tied to the data,
like what's actually working.

And I know that CRMs have
come a long way where it's actually

fairly easy to get involved
with a pretty decent CRM to

start tracking leads,
tracking performance.

And then you can
understand like, okay,

these areas in my little
market are doing really well.

What's actually working?

And then you can set up those channels
appropriately and kind of scale there.

Cause at that point, it's about like
two leads a day matter at that point.

And so that's sort of
how that balance works.

It's like, once you
get to that point,

you're like consistently
two leads a day,

you're doing pretty decent
for a small business.

I know that's microscopic
compared to some of these other

businesses, but it's all
scaling up from there.

All right, two
follow-up questions.

One is websites.

I here's my challenge with websites
is like every two or three years,

you almost gotta redo it
because it's out of date and it

looks out of date.

What I mean, how do you know
when your website's out of date?

If I've had the same
website for three years,

is it by default out of date?

Or is it like, you probably
wanna have somebody look at it?

Or what do you think about that?

Yeah, this one, man,

there could be an entire conversation
probably based on websites.

And a lot's happened
over the years,

especially with the onset of
AI and how it's changed the

fabric of the internet.

You've got a lot of
clients that I work with,

we kind of started this
year seeing organic erosion,

you started to see your website
behave a little bit differently.

I think it starts with data.

I mean, understanding how much
traffic you're getting on your website

first and foremost is
probably the starting point.

You can look at that
historically too.

You can see a
Google Ads account.

If you have a Google
Ads account or you're pretty

sophisticated in that space,

you probably have a Google GA
four or Google Analytics account.

You can sort of track web
visits and understand who's

coming to your website,
how long are they engaged,

you know, what sort of
actions are they taking.

You know, you can get sophisticated
to know if they're booking

appointments or clicking
phone numbers to call.

If you start to see that data
start to slip and those trends

start to dip down, then
it's time to probably start

optimizing, right?

And not everybody needs a new website
because of performance issues.

Sometimes, what the
bigger problem is,

is some of these websites haven't
been touched in six, seven months.

Now it's becoming a point where
if you're not doing compound

SEO efforts on your
website, which happens,

could happen weekly,

I mean sometimes even every
few days depending on your business

or your industry,

that's where you start to
lose some of that traffic.

And the way that Google and
some of these other search

engines are prioritizing
website performance is so much

different than it was even
a year ago, two years ago.

I heard an interesting stat in

terms of how websites
are crawled and

robot text files or Google bots,

they crawl usually
every thirty days.

And this is probably plus
or minus, web people,

please don't get on me for this.

But with AI, LLM bots,

which is a new requirement
for AI visibility,

those are crawling sometimes
even as fast as every four days.

So it's looking at
content changes.

It's looking at pictures
and anything you put on that

website that's different.

You know, if you were to search,

which most people
are doing, you know,

they're going to chat GPT
and saying, hey, you know,

I'm looking for a new furnace.

What's a good company
that I could go with?

They're gonna look and see
if websites haven't been updated

in seven months,

they might still have access
to reviews and other content

that's more
consistently updated.

But the website plays
a big role in that.

And for those that aren't
doing that sort of stuff,

those are easy things
to start implementing,

whether you're doing it
yourself or you have agencies

that work on that.

SEO has been the big topic
because it's everybody's least

favorite marketing investment
because it's not necessarily

instant gratification.

It's more of that
long game approach,

but I hate to say it now
it is creating more instant

gratification for those
websites because of how often

they're getting crawled
and that sort of stuff.

But those websites are even
more meaningful tools in any

businesses arsenal, right?

So the other piece that I would recommend
is we look at website performance.

So Google has tests out there.

You can Google page
speed insights.

You can look at how your
website performs to,

I guess the internet, right?

And you can see where does
it rank? How good is it?

How fast is it?

Google will show you like, hey,

these are issues that you could
potentially be flagged for performance.

And that's also a good
indicator to kind of say, okay,

should start investing
in this, you know,

because you're sending traffic
there and especially if you've

got a paid budget,
you know, Mary,

you're sending through your
Google Ads Express account

customers to this website.

If it takes nine seconds to
load because you've got a video

on the homepage, people's
patience is like a third of

that now, if that.

And so you're gonna
lose the customer.

And so that's where you start
to get into some trouble

because magnifying that over a
thousand dollar a day budget,

you start to get into
some real issues.

So those are things that I
would recommend looking at.

Yeah, I am my own barometer
and if it's taking

longer than a flash, I'm out.

Mean, just don't want to
experience the weight.

Yeah. Same. That's a big thing.

Of the things that
again, small companies.

I bought a company
a few years ago.

We were doing two
million in business.

We had a

on a two million dollar
operating budget,

we our marketing was
like fifty grand.

So I got to squeeze as much out
of that fifty grand as I can.

So website was in there,
vehicle wraps, all that stuff.

So I put a chunk of
that into direct mail.

And I love direct mail because I
think nobody does it hardly ever.

And so in two thousand,

if you went to your mailbox
and opened it up, I mean,

might have fifty
postcards in there.

Today, I don't even
think I got mail today.

So if I had anything
in there at all,

I would have looked
at it at least.

So we built we went from two

million to three and a half
million in revenue basically

with just a website, a
little bit of paid Google,

and a bunch of postcards.

Is that still a valid strategy?

That was twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen,

twenty twenty five, direct
mail, what do you think?

I mean, I think I'm not gonna argue
with any strategy that seems to

work in the data.

Mean, I think the important thing
is that every market's different.

You got a different demographic that
could be opening up that mailbox.

I mean, in my
neighborhood, there's,

half of them get excited
to go to the mailbox,

half of them go right to the
mailbox to the garbage can.

To each their own.

But I think when you're putting
enabling strategies like that,

and anything can work, right?

You just have to be able to
measure it and understand the

areas or pockets like
direct mail, for instance,

I've seen companies
cancel complete campaigns because

they're looking my apically at
like, okay, this didn't work.

But what they're not, what
they're missing is like, okay,

you're taking the entire campaign
and throwing it out the window.

But in reality, you had like a
twenty six percent engagement rate in

these three zip codes,

but yet we canceled the entire
campaign because we said, okay,

well, we mailed twenty and
the rest of them didn't work.

Well, that just means that
those pockets were off.

Like understanding the data
and the makeup of your market,

I think brings more
gratification to strategies

like that because to your point,

you're getting into direct mail
because there's absence there.

There's not a lot of
competition And so to you,

it's like, okay, well, there's
a hole, I'm gonna fill it.

But if you go too
broad or too large,

that's a sort of tactic that
can easily be dismissed when in

reality, that's a golden star
in like two, three, four,

five different zip codes.

So then my goal would be,
okay, let's bring this campaign back.

Yes, let's get rid of the zips
that maybe didn't perform.

Now let's look for lookalike
Zips that match what would

actually work for us.

And that's how you can build those
mini strategies that scale up.

And I will meet clients that,
you know, they'll be like,

I have a very interesting
direct mail strategy.

I mail to thirty seven specific
zip codes all over the map.

No EDDM, it's all like
straight targeted.

And they've been
doing it for years

because they know that that's
how they had to get there.

So I think it's
a great strategy.

And it's one, if you know the
data and you can measure it,

that's something that you can
stay with for a long time.

So speaking of measuring,

because you mentioned it in the
beginning a little bit and then

now here too.

What

is the right length of time to
measure a new marketing experiment?

Good question.

So I think sometimes it would
depend on the sort of experiment.

And what I mean by that is,

everything that you do in a
marketing channel could have

maybe one impression,
ten impressions.

There's a there's a marketing
term that we use frequency.

So how often are people
seeing this sort of campaign,

whatever it may be.

If it's a TV commercial,
it's like, okay, well,

you might have a, you know,

a ten thousand dollar
budget that's running,

but what's the frequency?

How many times is a customer or an
impression actually seeing that ad?

And that has a big impact
on the results, right?

You could have the best
marketing campaign,

whether it's a direct mail
postcard or a TV commercial.

And if it only hits
one person one time,

that might not be enough to
get them to engage where you'll see

some sort of results.

And that's why a lot of
even direct mail campaigns,

they don't just have one drop.

They have one drop,
then a second drop,

or maybe even one
drop right after that.

Like there's some tactics
behind understanding when to

get those results or how
to get those results.

And so being able to
measure, excuse me,

like for a postcard, would
put tracking numbers,

you could put QR codes.

And so you kind of
understand engagement there.

Being able to
measure that after,

call it a thirty day run rate and
then going back and optimizing.

Sometimes it's quicker
depending on the type of mail.

But I think in reality when
no matter what you're doing,

you do gotta give time for new
marketing campaigns to sort of marinate.

I've met a lot of people who,
and I'll speak to myself,

I don't have a ton of
patients in real life.

But like with marketing campaigns,
I have learned that, you know,

my disadvantage would be
to pull the plug early on

something without truly letting
it kind of grow some legs.

And then I learned that, okay,

this is also specific to
the type of marketing.

If you change TV creative
new messaging and you've got

promotions going on,

like if you're changing
that promotion every thirty days,

you're not even giving your
customer base or your audience

time to even understand what
you're doing because then by

the time they get it,
you're switching it again.

And the same thing
goes with direct mail.

It's like, send out a postcard with
a message and you get impatient

because you didn't
see the results.

You send out a completely
different message.

Well, in a marketer's eyes,

usually that like resets
the parameters here,

because now I'm not getting hit
with the same maintenance tune

up for November to get it
in by November fifteenth.

You hit me with maintenance
tune up, then you're like, Man,

let's do a full replacement.

Oh my gosh, let's
finance this thing.

And so you start to get all
over the map and you lead to

analysis paralysis in a
lot of those engagements.

My rule of thumb, I
always try to at least,

if we're going
launch a campaign,

give me thirty to forty five days
to see if we've got any traction.

And then if we can see,

then can we sort of isolate
to those pockets that are

performing and go from there?

Anything before that,

I'll usually try to convince
people not to even do it

because if you're not
gonna give it time,

then it's not gonna reward you
is kind of what I've learned

through failure, I'll add.

That's fair. Yeah. No.

I'm thinking of some, like,
jingles that even, like,

I know off the top of my
head and write like like,

I've never had a
structured settlement,

but I could sing a
company that handles them.

You know?

Like Now that's in my head.

But but, you know, but
that's, like, exactly it.

And the only reason I know
that is because of frequency.

And they didn't change it.

Now maybe they've changed the
way they've gone about and

delivered it and whatnot.

But

you just think of those things.

Always noticed this with
like medical ads too,

like when I'm browsing around
and then all of a sudden after

a couple of weeks,
I'm like, why,

why do I know how to
sing like that this thing has everything

I need?

Like, and, and then it's, it's
because of that frequency.

So very good point
I think to say

it's gonna depend on the medium
that maybe we're going with but

then just have to have a little
bit more patience than maybe

you're willing to admit out
loud that we gotta go for

frequency and maybe reach.

So what is the
right thing to do?

I'm glad Mary mentioned.

So frequency and reach are the
two things that I hear a lot as

a business owner.

So reach meaning
how many people,

frequency how often are
they going to see it.

So if I reach ten
thousand people,

but they only saw my ad
once, it's it's horrible.

Right? Because nobody's
gonna buy anything.

They don't even remember it.

By the same token, if I
only reach ten people,

but they saw my ad a
hundred and fifty times,

I probably oversaturated
it and killed them,

and they all hate me now.

So what like, is there
is there a happy medium?

Like, what are you
trying to reach?

Like, do you measure frequency
on a thirty day monthly basis?

Is it we want to touch them seven
to ten times in thirty days?

Is it what are you
trying to do there?

Yeah.

So again, this will be I don't
want to give the excuse on

it being market dependent,
but when you do get into these

conversations, it's
like, okay, well,

reach and frequency means
something completely different

on Times Square versus
like some city in Kansas.

So when you look at those,

I think you have to take into
consideration the audience,

Now what you make up in reach,

you're getting more
massive volume.

So those are some considerations
to take into play.

You'll kind of go another layer
deeper where it's like, okay,

well, if my reach
is low or sorry,

if my frequency is low,

what I would do is it's
not like don't do the campaign.

It's okay, if I'm gonna
hit them if I got one shot,

if I have one shot to
get deliver a message,

I need to make sure that
this is like three words.

Can I get it done
in three words?

Because I've only got one
chance to make it memorable,

to make it engaging.

And I think a lot
of companies also,

try to cram too much
into that reach, right?

So it's balance.

I've seen some companies be
very successful with a campaign

that has a low frequency, but they
wanted broad reach, because again,

more frequency means more
expense when you consider reach

and your audience size.

And so, you kind of have to have
the economics in play with these

decisions because some of these
campaigns can get fairly expensive.

You have to have a balance of
frequency and reach and messaging.

Know, I think all of that
kind of comes into play.

And so again,

run these campaigns for
thirty to forty five days,

you see good results, and then
or you don't see good results,

you can adjust and sort of optimize
based on what you are seeing.

Unless the campaign does
zero, then, you know,

there's always ways to tweak
that and get it to a sweet spot.

Cause those types of campaigns are a
little bit harder to compete against.

Right?

So I think there's a valid
strategy there, you know,

similar to what you had
said about owning the direct mail

space, know, you
start getting into,

we're talking like paid sort of
paid media strategies, you know,

it's tougher for competitors
to kind of line up with you in

those sequences because it's
sort of you putting your

creative, your theory into play
and not as easy as, you know,

oh, they're on TV.

I want to be on TV now.

Those are easy to combat.
You know, we saw that.

I saw that through
my entire career.

We'd run a commercial
or promotion.

We'd see a competitor run a
similar commercial or promotion.

It's tougher to do that when
you get in some of the bigger

marketing pieces like
out of home or digital.

Hopefully that
helped explain that.

All right, I got questions.

This is my theme.

Surprising no one.

Yeah. I mean, all right.

So I've got opinions and
then I got questions.

So

I had a small heating
and air company.

We were in a mid sized market and we
had a couple very large competitors.

And one of those
large competitors was pretty

effective at private
labeling equipment.

So as a small company,
I'm like, okay.

I gotta combat that.

So my way of combating that was to
affiliate with a national brand.

Right? Because I got
a I got a small brand.

I'm going up against
a large brand.

They have no equipment
brand because labeling.

They're doubling down
on their own brand.

I'm like, I need to check.

I wanna take a chunk
of their customers.

So I go find the biggest,

baddest brand I can
to affiliate with.

Give me a little rundown.
That worked well for me.

So market, in that size
market, in that space, hey.

I'm the little guy. I'm
chipping away at the big guys.

That's how we went after it.

What are your thoughts on
just kind of that branding?

How do you maximize

your equipment
manufacturer's brand?

How do you get the
most out of that?

Or maybe you're the maybe you would
say, forget that, man, private label.

Or I I don't know.

What are your what's
your opinion on that?

Yeah. I think I've
got opinions too.

You know, I think when you
look at a strategy like that,

I think you have a
choice to make, right?

And I've had a lot of, you know,

throughout my career
working with, I mean, gosh,

probably over forty
different HVAC companies,

different marketing
strategies, you name it.

We had some that had adopted
the private label because they

thought that it would help them
sort of keep their brand more

in the spotlight.

And that's really when I
think about it, which I mean,

now that I'm thinking about it,
that was their strategy, which was,

we don't wanna distract the
customers from our brand name.

We wanna be the brand.

We wanna be the one to, you
know, it's our equipment,

you know, of course they can
show you who makes the equipment.

It's not like the company's
making the equipment,

the manufacturer is,

But their strategy was we wanna
keep focus on our brand name

and what we are, right,
which I think works.

Other companies, even
some big names, you know,

they would still like to
bolt on to some of these

manufacturers names.

And I think that there's pros
and cons to both aspects.

You know, you're gonna run into
customers that are gonna look at private

label and say, I
don't want that.

Like, that doesn't suit I don't
know what this name is because they

all come up with
very creative names.

But it's like they
can't look it up.

They don't feel like
that's reliable or trusted,

even if there is a
manufacturer backing it.

And that's gonna be an
objection that that company is

gonna have to always encounter
here and there, right?

Other companies, you're
gonna have, you know,

now they're gonna be
brand, they're not brand agnostic,

maybe they want
a specific brand,

and then you're another
dealer of another brand.

So then you're like, well,

now you've got to convince that
this manufacturer is better

than the other manufacturer.

So, like I said, there's gonna
be challenges either way.

I think for me,

like if I were answering
this question as a marketer,

I would want something
that's not distracting.

So if I'm propping up a
manufacturer alongside of a

local brand, I can see
that being confusing.

I mean, we've had
customers call us at times,

not even naming a company name,

but they think we're
the manufacturer.

And that's not necessarily what we want
depending on the nature of the call.

And so there's a lot of ways
that you can kind of come to

that conclusion, but I think
ultimately it comes to,

you know, how do you want
customers to perceive your brand?

How do you want them to look at you
as anchored to the manufacturer?

And I think that
the unsaid truth,

or maybe it is the evident
truth, but you know,

a lot of these
manufacturers, they do,

they help a lot when you
bolt onto them as the

preferred manufacturer or the
preferred brand of so and so

company of Stephen and
Mary's Heating and Cooling.

You know, you have a
lot of marketing tools,

you've got marketing support,

and sometimes you can kind of ride
the coattails of that brand power.

I mean, no matter what, since
this is a Trane podcast,

but when pushing Trane,
that's a huge name.

I, as a company, will
never compete with Trane.

And so a lot of companies
that would work with different

manufacturers,

it might be to their benefit
to ride the coattails of those

massive manufacturers behind them,
if it helps, you know,

with their objectives and
sort of what their goals are.

Well, our hope is that you'll
never compete without Trane either.

We love that.

Well, it's interesting.

Mean, I saw tracking
cost per lead once we

put that Trane brand
with our brand,

we saw our cost per lead drop
because we're getting a better

ROI on the dollars
that we're spending.

So that's kinda what made
me a believer. And I'm Yeah.

You know, I'm aware that,
like, my personal experience,

you know, it's gonna
vary market by market,

company size by company size,
who are your competitors,

what are they selling.

But for me, and like, I mean,

we went from two million to
about three million to four and

a half to five point
seven, eight point three.

I mean, we rode that coattail.

I mean

And, you know, with
within about seven years,

we've gone from two
million to twelve million,

and we did it on about a three and
a half percent marketing budget.

And I think that's
the other thing.

Rob and I had a pretty good
discussion a couple weeks ago

with a company outside our
industry that does garage doors.

And it was interesting to
have that discussion because

a lot of companies
will look at, hey.

What's our marketing spend?

And they'll say, oh my gosh.

We we did five million in
business and we spent five

hundred thousand
dollars in marketing.

So our our marketing
budget was ten percent.

And one of the things I've
found is you might roll into

the year and say, hey.

Our marketing budget's
five hundred thousand,

and we're projecting
doing five million.

But if you have good
sales processes, to Rob's point,

like, you're the the sales and
marketing have to work together.

You gotta know what
the promotions are.

You gotta have your
salespeople talk about it.

You gotta have your
technicians talk about it.

But if you roll into the year
with a five hundred thousand

dollar marketing budget and
then you do six million instead

of five million because sales
delivered on its end of the bargain,

well now your marketing budget
is not ten percent anymore.

It's like eight percent.

And so it just makes the
marketing look so much better

when your sales
team's performing.

And that's what we saw.

We might roll into the year
budgeting six percent for

marketing, but at
the end of the year,

it turned into three
and a half percent.

So we we went from, on paper,

two million to twelve million on
a three and a half percent

marketing budget year even
though at the beginning of the

year, we were
budgeting six percent.

We just outgrew that budget.

So it's, you know,

it's interesting to look at
those numbers and go, okay.

I mean, if you're struggling,

is it a marketing issue
or is it a sales issue?

I mean, and and sometimes you're
troubleshooting to figure out

where's the issue.

Is it that we're getting
leads and the leads are junk?

Or is it that you're getting
leads and the leads are fine?

The salespeople stink.

I mean, that's you know,
sometimes that's the issue.

The leads were fine. Just
go get better salespeople.

So

No, that's true.

I think it speaks to the
alignment too of those.

A lot of times you go into companies
and those are siloed departments.

And in my experience, I
had to embrace all of it.

And so it did teach
me a lot about that.

We kinda created like an
accountability loop between

those departments
where it's like,

I don't wanna hear
leads are bad.

I wanna hear what's going on.

And then honestly,
sometimes I had to eat dirt.

Like, okay, promotion
didn't work.

Campaign didn't work. So
sorry. Let's tweak it.

And then when you start to
balance or create that balance

between those groups,
like you said, Steven,

that supercharged effect
of collaboration, I mean,

that's compound growth.

When you've got marketing and
sales both working together to

create those, you
know, that end result,

I think that's where you start
to get into the sweet spot in

balance between marketing
and sales for sure.

Can I tell you the best
marketing thing I've ever done

in my life, Mary?

Do you want to hear this story?

I swear.

Every time you ask me if I
wanna hear a story, one day,

I'm gonna say no, but not today.

Darn it.

Well, to Rob's point, I mean,

I was managing sales at a
pretty large heating and air

company a few years ago,

and we were we were the
largest in our market.

And so everybody
imitated whatever we did,

and it started to really bug me.

Like, if we ran a TV commercial
advertising, whatever,

they ran a TV commercial
advertising, whatever.

I was like, man, I gotta
find things they can't do.

So I went and sat down with,
like, the local YMCA one day,

and I I go and
talk to this lady.

And I was like, hey.

How much you know, what's,
it was it was the fall,

so they were starting
with football.

Right? Flag football for kids.

And I said, hey. I wanna come
talk about a sponsorship.

And she's like, sure.
So we we I walk in.

We sit down. I was like,
how how much is it?

How does it work?

She goes, well, it's three
hundred dollars to sponsor a team.

And for a hundred dollars, you
can put a sign on the field.

And and so I just kinda she
she gave me her sales pitch,

and then I said, okay.

Kinda curious. How
many teams do you have?

How many flag football
teams do you have?

And how many locations?

Because there were six
YMCAs around the city.

And so, yeah, there are about
thirty flag football teams,

and there are about
forty five soccer teams.

And they were like, we
just kinda add it all up.

And I'm like, hey. I'm kinda
doing the math in my head.

It's thirty six thousand dollars
is what you're trying to bring in.

And she goes, yeah. I
said, I'll take them all.

And so we took
every sports team,

every sign in the outfield.

And when you look at
the demographics, like,

who are you going after?

Well, you're going after
people with kids in sports.

Like, if they've got the disposable
income to put their kid in

soccer, they probably you know?

I I mean, you could
sort by age of the home.

Like, when you're doing
direct mail or other I mean,

you're looking at what
demographics are you going after.

Hands down, best marketing
thing I've ever done.

None of my competitors could get
in there because I bought them all.

There was absolutely nothing
that they could do to get in.

And it's like, I'm not even
at that company, and this is now,

like, ten years later.

They are still doing it.

They'll never stop
because they got them all.

It's awesome.

I love that.

Sometimes I'm just petty,
Mary. Sometimes I'm just petty.

But if I can be petty
and make money, boy,

that's the best of both worlds.

I think we would
call that a monopoly

but in this case we'll allow it
because you're supporting youth sports.

Interesting.

It's always fun to kind of
I've I've just naturally find

marketing and just interesting
and learning about campaigns

and how the things work.

And I am a shopper.
It's it's true.

So I just kinda like figuring out
how people are marketing to me.

So Rob, thank you so much
for giving us just such a

diverse insight on how we can
maybe can apply some of this

into home services.

Absolutely.

Since we've talked about
websites, forgive it today.

So it's Robert
Anthony Consulting.

How would somebody find you?

They can visit my website
that no Google Ads Express account,

but robert anthony
consulting dot com.

I'm also on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn,

all the channels.

So but really appreciate
you both having me.

It's been really fun and
a great conversation.

That's so great.

And, of course, you can always
reach Steven and I at h v a c

underscore full
underscore blast at train

technologies dot com.

We would love to hear from you.

Lately, all I get is
messages from AI bots.

So come on real
humans. Hit us up.

Sounds good. Thanks, everybody.

Have a great day, and we'll
see you soon back here on HVAC.

Go blast.