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Are you a business owner? Or are you on the verge of taking that side hustle to the next level? Or curious about the world of entrepreneurship? Join Vivian Kvam, Co-Owner of Tandem Works, each week for a behind-the-scenes at small businesses and what it takes to succeed.
Each episode is full of inspiration, education, tips, and great conversation with people like you, people who are figuring it out. Take your business to the next level with insight from expert guests in business, leadership, and marketing.
00:00:00 - Speaker A
Welcome to Riding Tandem, a podcast about building businesses leadership and creating positive impact for our communities. I'm your host, Vivian Kvam, and I invite you to ride Tandem Works with me as I have candid conversations with inspiring business owners, leaders, and experts who are building on their dreams and creating impact. Get ready to be encouraged and learn practical tactics, help us build successful businesses, become incredible leaders, and have positive ripple effects. Let's go. Welcome, everybody to this episode of Tandem Works Works. I, as always, am excited to be here. Today is a little bit special for me on two fronts because the business owner that we are talking to is a landscape photographer. And I'm really excited about this one because I know there's going to be so much gold to mine out of this, whether you're in landscape photography or not, because we're going to be talking about all kinds of things. About promotion and also just like mentally preparing yourself for business and having expectations and then realizing that you have different expectations within your business. So even if you're not a photographer, I know you're going to gather just so much from this conversation. But it's also special to me because as many of you know, my background started in photography, though not landscape photography. And my husband, if you've been following the last few episodes, as you would know, then has left his full time job and gone into landscape photography full time. And so this is just like hitting on all of the good vibes for me. So I'm welcoming today Jeffrey Tadlock with Jeffrey Tadlock photography, landscape Photographer And he is based in the Midwestern area. Well, he's in Ohio, so the Midwestern us. And he also has an active YouTube channel which is focused on landscape photography education. So we're going to make sure that there's a link to that. Of course, we're going to talk about YouTube and what that's been like, but he also hosts various regional workshops to help landscape photographers get better at their craft. And I think what's really cool about this conversation is that we're going to get to talk about travel and beautiful landscape photography, but just also the nitty gritty of business as well because they do go hand in hand. And that's one of the things that Jeffrey talked ahead of time with me about a bit, was just how much he really enjoys the business side of things and working on marketing and working on building email lists and creating content on a regular basis, all of which I find interesting as well. And I know so many of you are interested in knowing more about. So Jeffrey Tadlock, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here and paint us more of a picture of your story, like fill in the details that we didn't get to cover there for you.
00:02:46 - Speaker B
Yeah, great. Well, first, thanks for having me, Vivian. Appreciate it. Looking forward to the discussion. Like I said, I feel like I'm a little unique for landscape photographers, and I do enjoy the business side of it and the creative and the email list building and the marketing and everything like that. But, yeah, my journey in photography started a long time ago. Back in the film camera days, I had a film camera when there was no digital cameras around, so you had to shoot film. And I photographed landscapes back then. I did a lot of backpacking, rock climbing back in that time. And so I'd take my film camera in. So I have a lot of interesting shots from bottom of the Grand Canyon. That camera had been there. It's been to the highest point in the Rocky Mountain National Park. And just lots of photos of landscapes and sort of documenting the trips and the experiences and things. As time went, know, did the college thing. Ended up moving out west. Lived in southwestern US. Tucson, Arizona. And I sort of put the camera down for a little bit. I always had cameras around, but it wasn't really a huge focus of mine. Sort of did the real career type path for quite a while, but I always had cameras. When digital cameras came out, I shot for any photographers that are listening. One of the Sony Mavica cameras that used a three and a half inch floppy disk in it. That's what it recorded, right?
00:04:03 - Speaker A
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. In school, digital cameras were out, but just out. Like, my first digital camera was a Canon 330 D. I learned on film. We learned film, dark room processing, color processing. So, yeah, feel free to throw the nerdy stuff.
00:04:24 - Speaker B
Awesome. So we worked through just a couple of different point and shoot digital cameras over the years. Canon power shots and things like that. We ended up moving back to Ohio. It's been quite a while now, 1520 years ago, close to 20 years ago, I guess. And we did the typical family thing, start to family, and then you go buy that real camera again. Right? Yeah. Even then, it was still more just taking pictures of the family, documenting things. And then sort of fast forward. About seven or eight years ago, I got really back into photography, and I actually broke out the old family camera that we'd had and had around with a Nikon D 3100 and started shooting with that. And at first, I sort of went to my roots with the landscapes and everything like that. And as I started doing that more, I started to think more side hustle business, going to business photography. I was like, this is interesting. I'm sort of a technical head at heart, so I appreciate the creative side, and I like the blend of the technical with the creative that photography brings to the table. And I started landscapes, but then my business side sort of hit in, and I end up doing more headshots and events. What any new photographer of the business does, right? If you want to give us money to photograph something, sure, I can photograph that.
00:05:40 - Speaker A
Weddings were weddings.
00:05:42 - Speaker B
I didn't do a lot, but I second shot a fair number of weddings and I've done them here and there. But I never really advertised weddings much, but I have shot a few and second shot more on that front. And I did try to start the business around senior portraits and headshots and things. And it was good, it brought in money and things like that. But I always found the content creation, the marketing, just not as much fun. It was like I felt like it was more forced. And so a couple of years ago, I decided to about two years ago I decided, you know, I know the landscape photography path is a little harder. There's not quite as many ways to make money with landscape photography, but I was like, I just enjoy the whole experience, the whole process more. And it really made a huge difference from the business side, at least as far as enjoying the day to day, maintaining email lists, making social media posts, creating those stories, interacting with other photographers, even trying to build those relationships. Everything seemed easier. So there's challenges on generating plenty of income, but it was more exciting and more fun. And I feel like it was worth switching over to sort of follow that route of it all, which for me was landscape photography, even back in the film days to where we are today. So that's sort of my path in a nutshell over the years.
00:07:00 - Speaker A
I love it and a really important piece that I want to dig into more, and that being often as business owners, not always, but we will have something we're like. I enjoy this thing, whatever it is, right? Like, I enjoy baking, I enjoy photography, I enjoy numbers, whatever it is. And we go, okay, well, the most logical to start a business would be I enjoy baking. I will open a bakery, right? And then we get into it and we go, oh my gosh, I don't really love baking. All to find out. I actually really like making pies specifically, but then you kind of go through that, but that's not the normal or I've never seen people make a lot of money making pies, et cetera. I feel like this is such a relatable topic, whether you're in photography or not, of you go into it thinking this is how you're supposed to make money with it. So I'll do that, even though it's not what I particularly love. Talk me through that some more, like how you came to that conclusion and your process, because I think a lot of people get stuck there.
00:08:12 - Speaker B
Yeah, I agree, because that's sort of the mental shift it took. I mean, if you go look at when I first picked up that D 3100 again, eight years ago or so. If you look at my lightroom catalog, the initial shots were landscape shots and things outside. But then you sort of see this shift of, well, if I want to make money, I need to go photograph people. Because like you said, that's where the money's at if you're going to do it in photography, is portraits and headshots and things. And so that's what I did. And I really didn't do a whole lot of landscape photography when I tried to turn it in photography into a business. And I really focused on marketing and advertising for senior portraits and headshots. And I would do events and I would photograph running races. And initially, just the joy of getting some money using your camera is pretty awesome, right? And the first six months or so, that felt really good. And I'm like, this is working. This is fun. Then after a while, it was like, I get stressed before photographing people just because it's the anxiety and the nervousness and is everything going to go right? And like, you know, is this really an indicator that this isn't really what I should be doing? And even though it does make money and generate revenue, is it impacting other things? And if you tie it into social media, you need to be active on social media and treat mailing lists and to write. I had a mailing list, but trying to think of content that was relatable to my customers, it was like I felt forced. And because it felt forced made you not want to do it as often. The same with social media posts. I found it very hard to come up with social media posts and creative content for the marketing side that would resonate with my customers, which at the time would have been seniors or headshots. It just felt a little fake to me. And so finally, I eventually reached a point where it's just like something's not quite right. Yes, I'm making money, but it's not quite right. And I was like, if I go back to my roots, what I really like about photography is going outside, taking pictures of landscape, because I enjoy the whole experience. And I sort of switched my mindset. I started switching social media accounts over towards landscape themed content. Everything was landscape themed. My Instagram now used to have senior portraits on it and it's pretty much been cleaned off and down to just landscape photography. What I found with that is just the day to day work of the business is so much more enjoyable. It's just so much more fun. Creating social media content is, yes, it's work. You got to sit down, come up. It's just going to be creative or catchy, but it's enjoyable. And I feel like I have a better connection with people that might potentially buy my work or attend a workshop or come to my YouTube channel because I feel like I'm more passionate about it. And that results in more creative social media, more frequent social media, email lists. When I was doing headshots and portraits, it was a pain to try to come up with a topic that was going to resonate with potential customers. With landscape photography, it really hasn't been that difficult to come up with it. I'm on my longest streak ever of I send a bi weekly newsletter. I'm a year and a half in and haven't missed a mailing, which for me is great. It's really good. So that's sort of what switched. It was just everything surrounding the business of photography felt forced and very challenging and difficult. And more than just the work, it didn't click. Once I switched, things just became much, much easier to generate content and create. And I feel like I have stronger connections with my customers that either attend a workshop or even my YouTube audience.
00:11:44 - Speaker A
And things I just love how you're reiterating that, again, of things are easier when you like, doing it right. And that's one of the things we talk about in our marketing classes, is, look, at the end of the day, people are like, you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to have a TikTok or whatever. And certainly there are some best practices, but one of the things we teach all the time is if you don't love it or find a way to love it, be able to do it in a way that you love. People will know it won't land as well anyway, because people love authenticity and you can sniff it out when it's not authentic, even when you're trying, if you're like, it's just not my thing. And also, probably the biggest thing for me is like, you won't do it. You just won't. If you hate it, you can force it for so long, but at some point, you just aren't going to do it. And so why do we keep banging our head against a wall when we don't need to? But there's so much fear of that whole. I keep thinking of the phrase that people say, do what you love and the money will follow. What's been your experience with that? Right? Because you're like, okay, I'm going to do what I love. And are you trusting the money to follow? Is the money following? I know everyone's probably on the edge of their seat where they're like, so did it work? What happened?
00:13:09 - Speaker B
So it's definitely in a building state, and there's certainly an element of trust that the money will follow. So put in the work now and the money will follow. And it's not fully there yet between you, me and the audience. I still shoot headshots on the side. I feel like I'm good at it. It's easy, and I have enough of established client base that I get queries without having to market too much on that side of the world. So haven't been able to transition completely away from some of that other work to the landscape photography. But with that said, as I track how things are going even over the course of the past year, past 18 months, there's more income coming in through landscape photography. Whether it be my workshops like we mentioned, I have a YouTube channel and it's a small YouTube channel, but it's growing and starting to reach that partner status where you get the ad revenue. And it's a small amount, but it continues to grow. The workshop side of the world continues to grow. I do an annual calendar that's sort of regionally themed, a little more targeted towards one of the state parks nearest Hawking Hill State Park. It's a pretty popular park in Ohio, so I'm sort of based in Columbus. But everyone knows Hawking Hill State Park likes to see pictures. So I have calendar sales I do that are getting set to ramp up this year. So I have lots of little streams of income. Hasn't replaced the previous work, but there's enough forward momentum that I can see it's going to happen. It's not overnight, but I do know just in my day to day I have way more fun. I like to hop on social media, whether it's consuming replying to comments or posting something or thinking of something to post and just that shift has been just worth it. You take a little bit of money hit, but it's been worth it so far.
00:14:51 - Speaker A
Yeah. And I think about long term, right? I love how you're talking about how things are building and so often we want that instant gratification of, all right, I quit my job to do something that I really love and want to do. Then I started doing something I really didn't love. And then you're like, why did I quit my job? You kind of go through that process, but then also just realizing that it doesn't happen overnight. I really have never met overnight successes. We only see the success part, right? We don't see the years of, hey, I have a small YouTube channel, and then it was growing and growing and then ten years from now you're going to be blowing up everywhere and people are like, oh my gosh, an overnight success. And you're like, no, actually, you just weren't around for all of the other nights. So I love that idea that you're planting of hey, this can take time, but if you love it, it's enjoyable. And I guess I look at that too and go, and you're not going to burn out before you get to reach the success. If you're doing something you don't love and then you burn out and now you're back at that job or whatever it was that you didn't like because you had no other option. We didn't win there either, even though there was more bigger checks at the beginning, right?
00:16:03 - Speaker B
Exactly. And that's the following, the passion part, like you described it well. It makes the marathon of trying to become a successful business owner a little easier to do as opposed to trying to sprint to that finish.
00:16:19 - Speaker A
So you hit on this a little bit that you were able to start shifting your audience away from the commercial side. Still have the headshot thing coming in. I think that's so smart too. You don't have to cut everything off if you want to make a change and a shift. You didn't have to restart all of your channels. You just started shifting things over, made it an easy transition, and your audience clearly is changing. How has that been? So let's talk about the email, for example. You have an email list. They're kind of used to getting seniors and all this stuff. Did you find that a lot of people dropped out of your list and you started replacing them or what's? Some of the nitty gritty of that transition.
00:16:58 - Speaker B
So when I switched lists, I actually started a brand new list because I felt like there wasn't going to be enough overlap for some of the people that would have been on a senior headshot list to my landscape photography list. So I ripped the band aid off and went from X number of subscribers to zero subscribers with intent to build that list. So for mailing list, I actually switched because I just felt like there was not enough social media accounts was completely different and I just was like, people are going to unfollow me and that's okay. It's super easy to unfollow someone on social media. I think some people enjoy this. Even when I did every flavor of photography you could do, I did try to push some workshops and things like that as far as just camera usage. So I had a little bit of overlap from that for people that might have signed up to learn basic camera usage. The landscape tutorials education was also relevant. So that helped some. And I'm sure I've lost some followers on Instagram and Facebook because of it, but it wasn't a huge hit. I think especially going towards landscape photography, if you're posting pretty pictures, some people will just hang out because just love it. Pretty pictures, right? And with my social media, I think there's like an 80 20 rule, right? Only be selling like 20% of the time. 80% of the time try to produce interesting, valuable content to people. So I think because of that, I don't come across too salesy on either Instagram or Facebook. So the people that want to see pretty pictures are more than happy to hang out for that 80%, which is essentially a pretty picture of me in Death Valley or me in West Virginia or Rocky Mountains. And people like to see that and they enjoy it. And so I think that helped keep the attrition of social media accounts going. But with mailing list I swapped cold.
00:18:42 - Speaker A
Yeah, that sounds really strategic. And it makes a lot of sense. And it warmed my heart to hear you say about the 80 20 rule. I'm like, yes, talk about it all the time. And it is true. I mean, people do enjoy even if they're like, look, this isn't exactly my thing. People do enjoy supporting and following along, and they're like, no, maybe I don't put any landscape photography on my walls, but it doesn't mean that I don't enjoy seeing what you're putting out. And it doesn't mean I won't mention your work or share your work to someone who does. So I think that's really smart advice there. So you start an email list from zero. What tips do you have for just building an email list? What have you found that's worked, what hasn't? Because that can feel very daunting to just build an email list.
00:19:31 - Speaker B
Yeah, it is. And for rebuilding the list, it started with just simply, hey, come sign up for my list, which almost never works. Your mom signs up, maybe your brother signs up, your wife signs up, your partner signs up. Okay, so now you got like five or six people on your list. So from there I used lead magnets. And for me, I call it my exposure Fundamentals Guide. Or Guide to Better Photos. And it was essentially just an eight, nine page PDF on some basics of camera usage and using the histogram on the back of the camera to get a good exposure for landscape photography. And that pulls in okay, number of people, it trickles in. But my best tip for building an email list was I did a free webinar on planning photography travel for focus on landscape. And I talked about everything from researching a destination to travel. Tips for packing your bag, flying with a camera bag, because that always makes me super nervous. And I know other people get nervous flying, and I've done it enough times. I'm like, this alone is worth coming. And it was a free webinar. And the trick, though, for that, people love free. So people sign up. And of course, if you sign up with webinar, I have your email, you scrap the list. But I put it on Eventbrite, and I just did the free plan. I didn't do any paid sponsorship or anything, but did on Eventbrite. And what Eventbrite does is it pushes that webinar to people already registered to Eventbrite through their own little algorithms. And let's see that one webinar. I'm just a small, little regional landscape photographer. I think I had 150 spots open. I sold it out, as in, it's free, but everybody signed up. And I'm thinking I'll be lucky to get ten people because I don't know about anybody else, but if I sign up for a webinar, I don't go to the live one. I just hope you're going to send me the recorded link so I can watch it later. But I had 60 ish people. I think in that webinar, wow, even from there. And I was all intimidated because I was like, okay, cool, you're going to want the recorded link, which I did provide to everybody. But that helped accelerate my list growth the most was a free webinar. And I'm totally going to repeat that again in the future just because it was great. I'll put it on Eventbrite in the whole bit. And all the people that signed up were all photography enthusiast people. They were people actively looking on Eventbrite for things or Eventbrite had them in their algorithm, in their database and would push my stuff. So it really helped bring that gave me a ready made audience there. So that worked really well. And then just to carry on from that, I then converted that webinar into a recorded webinar, which I still use as a lead magnet. So now I have exposure fundamentals guide and I have my photography trip planning lead magnet. So I can sort of vary what I'm trying to push out to get people to sign up. And if you sign up for the list, you get, oh, I gave out free packing lists too. So I have a camera gear packing list checklist, make sure you know what you want and clothing, and I've shared those as well to either webinar attendees or people that sign up for the magnet. So building the list that free webinar has been my most successful rapid growth of the list that I've had.
00:22:35 - Speaker A
That's such a great tip and I literally had to write it down. I'm like, I would not have thought of that. Right? That's such a clever tip to write down for sure is to use Eventbrite, which then makes me start thinking of other channels that are out there that might apply to different businesses or groups that you could use where your audience already is or their algorithm is going to help get it there.
00:22:57 - Speaker B
It worked really well. I was super happy with that result.
00:23:01 - Speaker A
So is your audience do you find that your audience and are you wanting to build one way or another? Because I think let's clarify real quick, because you do your YouTube channel, which obviously is educational for photographers, and you have your workshops that you do which are geared towards photographers. Is your audience really an educator to be an educator to landscape photographers? Or is your audience more that you want to actually sell the finished art piece for a doctor's office or a private home?
00:23:35 - Speaker B
What are you finding there? Educator is my primary I focus on the educator piece and some of the print sales are more local based. I really haven't figured out how to crack getting someone from, I don't know, Texas to buy an image of Hawking Hills from me. So I tend to focus. And where I put most of my time trying to generate the real revenue is through workshops in the education side of the world in the future. I'll have an ebook and video tutorials, paid content like that. But education is my primary piece, and then the print side of the world is sort of just residual. So I mentioned calendars. I do an annual calendar, and really, I count it as a marketing expense. I don't make a ton of money off of them, but it gives me something to talk about online, gives me a chance to show off my work. I usually sell enough calendars that I make a little bit of money off of it, but it's really, for me, more marketing. Get out there, let people see it. It'll hang in someone's wall. They'll be, oh, cool, and my logos on it, and things like that. But education is where the predominant element of trying to generate revenue from the landscape photography is.
00:24:44 - Speaker A
How did you determine because I'm thinking back earlier in your story where you went, okay, I want to move from my job to photography. So then you're in this senior headshot commercial world. How did you realize while you were moving into the landscape world that you were also interested in the education piece?
00:25:05 - Speaker B
So that sort of ties back to I've always liked to lead workshops or teach people things. I have a corporate job was a technical position, and I did some unlimited training with that. But I've always been interested in education and helping people learn more and do more. So for the landscape photography, you see so many questions online, people asking questions about how do I do this, how do I do that? And the education piece is something I do enjoy. So it just seemed to go together really well because it gets me outdoors, it gets me going on trips and ties in that sort of teaching people, trying to help them get better with their camera. So just sort of tied in with the landscape photography as another area that never really been able to fully embrace in the past. So I was able to sort of take the two and bring them together to make something of it.
00:25:58 - Speaker A
That's so cool. And I worked with a woman, Tiffany Florentine, and she helped she has an earlier episode, so we'll have to link it here. Now that I've mentioned it, one of the things she helped me with was just kind of figuring out what your bullseye was and taking all of the experiences we've had and kind of thinking through it, journaling it out a little bit, and looking for the common threads, like what keeps popping up in my life. And I find that really interesting. Essentially, you're talking about a common thread like, oh, I did some technical training, and you're you know, what's that got to do with the price of tea in China, right? But it has everything to do with it. When you start looking backwards, because, again, taking that baking analogy, like, okay, I like baking. I open a. Bakery but there's so many other avenues. Like do you want to bake? Is it pies? Is it that you actually want to teach people about making the best pie crust? There's so many different avenues that you can take and it feels really important to explore those to really find your bullseye, as she puts it. I love how you've just been refining that bullseye. I even think now I'm like, okay, so maybe at some point in your business name goes Jeffrey Tadlock, landscape Photographer educator. Right. You just kind of keep refining, refining.
00:27:17 - Speaker B
Refining niching down to some degree certainly helps with anything. You follow that passion, you find your niche and what brings you energy and just go after that and I think the money will eventually follow it. You just got to enjoy the process as well. On your way, talk to me a.
00:27:34 - Speaker A
Bit about your workshops and just how have you found those? Maybe a little too I'm kind of curious about the workshops versus the YouTube because they're both educational but one's obviously in person, the other one's recorded. Are you finding things you like about them? Are you finding one to be more lucrative than another? Is one a long term play? Talk me through that a bit.
00:27:57 - Speaker B
So that's a really great question and they sort of go hand in hand and the YouTube channel was I enjoy the education going talking about gear and I'm trying to vlog some but I'm not very good at it. I'm better when I do the education piece than the vlogging piece. But for me the YouTube channel was more back to the whole content creation. As a business owner you need to create content and a YouTube channel, as long as you're comfortable being on video, just affords tremendous wealth of content creation. So even though it's just a little bit of ad revenue here, but it gives me things to share online. I can repurpose the video and turn it into a newsletter. I can chop it up into reels and shorts and short form. It just it helps from the content creation side of the world. And the other element of the YouTube channel for me is it builds sort of authority in the field. So me just putting something on a website or posting on social media, people go, yeah, you teach workshops but if they get interested you've had that touch and they're finally and then they go look at the YouTube channel. They sort of have a free preview of what it's like to talk to me. How do do I maybe there's something isn't know that we don't. So like I'm going to go look something else or maybe I feel like I really can get along with this person or their content is good or I like their instructional style. So for me the YouTube channel is sort of building authority in the genre of landscape photography and any real income from YouTube is again, sort of one of those just I'll take it nice to have but it's not the end game per se. The workshops themselves are more for me where I want to really generate the end game. I'll always have multiple streams of revenue but the workshops, what I want to build is the pillar and YouTube is just sort of me the long term play, as you called it, to build that authority in the world of landscape photography workshops.
00:29:51 - Speaker A
I just love this, I love this whole conversation because my brain starts pinging around, right? Because I go, I love that you are refining what works for you and I'm hoping that everyone is tuning in, hearing and if you come back to us now, right, like if you got distracted but it doesn't have to be one way or another, someone else could go. I'm actually using the workshops to help build my YouTube following from a local perspective, knowing that then it'll start to blossom from there and I'm hoping for ad revenue or sponsorships off of my YouTube channel. There are so many different avenues but end of the day it's figuring out what works for you and the lifestyle you want or the mental space you want to hold or the skills. I mean I get thinking about that a bit too know, doing YouTube channel requires a different set of skills in terms of audio and filming and editing and making the thumbnails. I mean there's a whole art to the know. So figuring out do you like that or does it just drain you and so therefore you're going to hire it out or you're not going to do it. So I just love how you're refining that and figuring it out right? When you think about what you're hopeful for in the future and how are you putting a plan together? Or are you more just kind of seeing what works and feeling like you're in experimental mode? Or are you the type of person who just kind of like, I have it all planned out. This is going to happen, and this is going to happen.
00:31:28 - Speaker B
I would call it more experimental mode. But the goal is to be able to do enough workshops throughout the course of the year to build that base income for it. What you need to feed the family and have a house and all of that pieces and parts. And that's where I want the chunk of the income from. But the prescriptive path it's almost just because economic conditions can impact workshops and I don't think that's necessarily a teller of are my workshops good or bad? It's right now people may not be spending a bunch of money so it might extend my timeline two years while things sort of come back around and reach that. So a little bit of experimental phase but like I said, I see it as workshops being get to the point where that's my core thing and I can count on it right now. I can't count on the workshop revenue. It happens, it comes, I get my sign ups, but it's not what you would call able to count on. But I want to reach the point we can count on just that. Okay, cool. And I can sort of budget to that. And then the YouTube revenue would be additional on top, affiliate would be additional on top, calendar sales would be something. So then those would just be to help even out the ups and downs of the workshops. But that's what I see. That's the foundational component. And the plan right now is really just keep doing what I'm doing and play the longer game. And then I sort of have lists of things and I look and is this working? Is this getting enough value out of it to continue doing or should I stop doing that? And that could be anything from what social media networks do I participate on the most? Which ones do I focus on? I'm certainly going to keep doing my email newsletter, but I think there's considerations of quarterly sort of sit down, take a look at your time and which one is at least moving you to that goal. Even though I don't have it prescribed out, like step by step, at least see am I using my time poorly somewhere and should I shift focus because I see something else working? Well, for example, the free webinar. I really need to prioritize that because that helped to build the email list, which to me is going to pay off in the long run. So at some point I need to sit down on my quarterly goals and look at it and go, well, maybe I should spend a little bit less time over on this piece and shift it over to here because that paid off really well. So I think it's ebb and flow, see what's working, what's not working. And don't be afraid to make those small adjustments to the levers as you go to make sure you're getting the most use of your time to move you towards that goal. And I do think it's important to have that where you want to be, I'm a little more comfortable with as long as I know I'm analyzing, looking at having every single step prescribed between here and there.
00:34:11 - Speaker A
Yeah, you have to be flexible, right? Because you're not sure exactly what ten years holds. It's nice to have a general idea, right? But you hit on something that just gave me all of the happy, all the happy chills when you said you sit down quarterly and you're kind of reviewing and looking back. That's also a pulse that we use within our company and it is huge. We have a weekly meeting and so it's my business partner and I, jenny also is part of that weekly. We have contractors we work with, we do a monthly with them. But we know specific times that we check in on all the things with Biz, we check in on our financials. We have a scorecard that we keep largely for our marketing. So we can see to your point, like, do we need to be doing this channel? Do we need to shift the type of content on the channel? Why was there a sudden rise there? And oh, there was a dip there. So we are tracking those things. So that I guess the question for you is, are you like tracking where you're kind of writing things down or do you more sit down around every quarter and you just kind of open up your analytics and you're kind of checking things and getting a pulse? What's your process for that?
00:35:26 - Speaker B
So I usually have a little notebook that I will sort of put, this is sort of what I'm going to focus on for the quarter. And these are the areas, if I've got a gap somewhere, I'll put it as this is something I'm going to try to accomplish this quarter. For example, my website right now, one of the things is to get the images updated on my website because I feel like they're starting to get dated. My work has improved. So that's sort of a quarterly goal from there. And then analytics is mailing list metrics. I pay really close attention to open rates, click rates, how's the subscriber growth going, and again, what seems to bring in more subscribers, even amongst the lead magnets that are out there, which ones do better? I've done things like adjust the COVID I've renamed the Exposure Fundamentals Guide to something a little more catchy, a little more like forget what exactly I call it now, but I made it less technical and dry and a little more like, get this Guide to help improve your photos. It's sort of the same thing underneath covers, but just small changes like that. But the quarterly is where I'd probably more likely sit down and look closer at website traffic and things like that. I think as a small business owner, it's hard to keep on top of all of the metrics all of the time. And that's sort of why I think doing it quarterly is good because it gives me that checkpoint to, okay, I need to go check this right now and see how things have been going. And I allow myself to make changes to what I thought was going to happen. So in January, if I thought this is how the year is going to go, but then I hit that first quarter and look at something and then I'm looking at either website or anything like that, or just what the perception? And I don't think I'm getting the value out of that. And I think I want to try to do this and I'll make a shift.
00:37:04 - Speaker A
Yeah, I love how you're talking about making those little shifts to even like the COVID photo, or maybe I'm going to try content differently. And I was just going to throw in here. That is how I believe you and I actually met. We met through an online forum. I think it was Amy Porterfield's list building. It was one of the list builders.
00:37:24 - Speaker B
It was. It was one of the list builders.
00:37:26 - Speaker A
And what was brilliant is, I believe correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you kind of put out a call for constructive critique on a lead magnet, if I recall, and you're like, now, if it was like, what should I call it? Or this that I think I chimed in on that just being a photographer with lots of opinions, and that's how we got talking was that is how it is.
00:37:48 - Speaker B
I think that is how it is. The feedback on one of the landing pages.
00:37:51 - Speaker A
Yeah. And I just want to point out how valuable it is. One, that you are tracking things and getting a pulse. And two, as a smaller business, sometimes we don't have people right next to us. We don't have a team, or we have a very small team that you really leaned into a community to give you good feedback as you were figuring this out, that you weren't doing it alone. Because so often, I think business owners, whether again, they have a team or not, they can feel really alone. And so they're like, okay, well, I looked at my analytics, and I don't know what to do. You know what I mean?
00:38:33 - Speaker B
Right? Yeah, 100%.
00:38:35 - Speaker A
Do you have colleagues or a team or people in person that you bounce off of, or do you lean more into forums? Are you a one man band? Give us a picture there.
00:38:46 - Speaker B
There's a pretty active discord server for landscape photographers, and there's several full on pro landscape folks that they're full time, they're successful in doing it. And there's a couple people on there and other people closer to me with the smaller YouTube channels that are trying to make that. We're in the transition of making it. And that server has a business channel in it for business and social media, and it's a pretty safe place for us to throw things out there. And it's always interesting because when I first started doing workshops, I was considered my first multi day workshop. I've done lots of single day workshops. Fairly easy, right? It's one day I tend to do those in an area I'm super, super familiar with, but I recently started doing multi day workshops in West Virginia, and that's a whole different world. That's like, okay, I've got my photography piece of making sure I do things good, make sure I have the energy to sustain for multiple days, and then just the logistics. Like, do we do an airbnb or do I try to get a block of rooms at a hotel? Those are all like I could have agonized about that. So I went to that server I'm in and just post hey anyway. And I got some really great advice from some pretty big name workshop folks in the landscape photography world that said, here's things to think about. And they really took their time to provide feedback, make some suggestions and be like, with where you're at now, we'd recommend this because you just don't want to have to hassle with the certain piece. So I feel like I have some communities that I can reach out to to get that feedback or bounce an idea off of. I have a good friend that's local to me that just we've known each other forever. So he's not necessarily a landscape photographer professional, but he does Photos landscape photography. He goes with me on some trips, but he's always a good sounding board. I'm like, hey. Because he's sort of the demographic I would target anyways. And it's like, what do you think of this price? Does this price sound good? Is this too much, not enough? Or what do you think if I don't do this or I do do that? So essentially, while I don't have virtual assistants or anything like that, I do have certain people I lean on to bounce ideas off of or get feedback from. And I think that's important for a small business owner or you end up, like you said, not making changes, afraid to make changes, that feedback is important. And I would encourage any small business owner to find somebody to objectively bounce ideas off of.
00:41:06 - Speaker A
Yeah. And finding those people who are both in your industry or related to your industry who can really get it understand, maybe offer more on that pricing end. I think also finding people who aren't in your industry at the end of the day, business is business and there are similar struggles with a different flavor is really what it is. Yeah. I think that's so great is to have that mix of people. So one of the things I am thinking about as we're having this conversation is what do you feel like? Are some of the signs or indicators for somebody who's going, I think I want to take this thing I like and turn it into a business, but I don't know if I love the business side or not. Do I keep this as a hobby or do I explore the business? Do you feel like there's a set of rules or pointers or things that you would guide someone on who may be in your shoes is going, I think I want to start this landscape photography thing. I keep hearing you can't make any money at it. Should I do it?
00:42:19 - Speaker B
Should I not right man, that's a tough question because I feel like it's very subjective and you really have to sort of understand yourself and what you want to do. For me, especially when I readjusted and recalibrated to the landscape photography, all of the other work behind. It was enjoyable. It's fun. So it's not as hard, but there is an element of pressure as you're trying to generate revenue because you are taking something. For a lot of people photographies, it's their moment away from work, right? They go out, take pictures to not think about work. And when you start to tie those two together, whether it be photography or the baking, you could take something that's fun and a release for you and turn it into something that's not fun anymore. And I think the key is I'm a big one for trying things and failing and seeing what happens. So for someone on the fence of do I try to do this or not? I'd be tempted to say try it. Keep a safety net, maybe side hustle it. Don't necessarily leap off the cliff with it just yet because you probably do want to see, because if you don't like doing that extra work in the evenings after your normal eight to five or whatever, that's probably an indicator that this isn't necessarily a great fit for you or the business side isn't. But if you find yourself still energized to do that work in the evenings and things like that, well, okay, that's a good sign and just gauge it over six months. Am I still enjoying working on this business on the side? Because at the end of the day, with landscape photography, I probably spend 15% of my time taking pictures for landscape photography, and the other 85% is working on marketing business creating content. Not just my pictures, but video content or posts that will resonate with people. So if you don't enjoy that piece of it, you're going to suddenly find yourself with less time to actually enjoy the part of it you enjoyed. In my case, I enjoy the marketing, I enjoy the email list. I enjoy let me try this and see. Does this get a lot of engagement? Do I get a lot of downloads? And if I don't, I don't take it personally. It's, well, I guess I should go work on that title or that text or the COVID change it and see what happens. And that part is fun. If you don't find that part fun, I fear you could be taking what you think is a hobby, something that's a creative release or a release and turn it into something that's just not.
00:44:49 - Speaker A
Good, not fun anymore. Yeah, you had talked a bit about liking the business side in that, but part of liking it is also having good tools. We talked about people, good people around you, but also just good tools to help and assist. That's something I've talked a lot with my husband about as he's navigating this, and one of the things came up with him is he doesn't love writing. It's God's favorite, and yet he feels it's important to have an email newsletter, probably because I say, I really think you should have one got to have an email newsletter, I think, so signing. So if he's listening in you do have Troy and everyone else out there. But we were just talking about but there's tools out there where you don't have to be the most brilliant writer. You can use things like you can use a copywriter, you can use audio, and you could dictate into your phone if you'd prefer to speak it out and have it transcribed for free or very little. You can use chat GPT. Like there's lots of different things. You could send an email newsletter and really it's a picture and there's actually an audio recording in it. There's so many ways you mentioned that there's some tools that you like to use. One of them, and I'd like to know more about it. Is the todoist app mentioned?
00:46:09 - Speaker B
Yes.
00:46:09 - Speaker A
Talk to me about that and if there's any other tools that you've also found where you're like, you know yeah, I like the business part, but I didn't love this. But this kind of helps make it better, right?
00:46:18 - Speaker B
So, yeah, Todoist is essentially a to do list for everything to track your to dos. And I lean into it super heavy because one of the things as a business owner, there's always things pulling you different directions. And as long as I can put it on the list and know it's coming up or put a date or a reminder, I'm really good at being able to take my attention and focus on what I need to now because I know I've taken care of that random thought. I don't have to try to juggle up my head. I use it to organize projects. I keep my YouTube topics in there. That tool has the ability to have projects. So I have like a YouTube topic list project and I can list all my things. So if I'm 11:00 at night, I can reach my phone and tap it in. I don't have to worry about forgetting or losing. If I'm standing line at the grocery store and suddenly got a random topic, I can type it in and it's there. So to me, that helps me keep focus for the times I need to keep focus. For example, with the YouTube channel, I have video editing. It just has to get done by a certain time if I'm going to publish according to my schedule. So if I'm getting distracted by these little things, I need a way to be able to take that distraction, file it away, know that it's going to be there tomorrow when I'm able to regroup and look at it and then get right back to the task I need to focus on. The other thing I like about that particular tool is it's just available on the web. It's available on mobile devices. And I'm one of those people that sometimes I'm at my desk and have a laptop or an iPad with me. So it's super easy. But other times, like I said, I'm at the grocery store and I need to make a note. So the accessibility of that tool, I think it really helps. It's sort of become my second brain, I guess is what I would call it. So that's one tool I use a lot. Other tools, mailing list provider. I've settled in on ConvertKit. It's been super powerful. I've really liked it. I've used MailChimp and Mailerlite in the past and both are great. All of them do the job well. And I think different people are different ways. But ConvertKit, for some reason, it just speaks my language. It stays out of my way, lets me write my newsletters nice and know any of those other platforms certainly work and do a great job. Just that one clicked with me. So big user, ConvertKit for my pieces. And then all my normal productivity apps are typically Google. Again. Google apps. Google workspace mainly because I can use it from anywhere, whether I'm at the laptop right now, iPad, we're traveling this weekend and I can just take the iPad and I'm going to have full access to my email, full access to my Google Docs and my spreadsheets. So I can do anything I need to do easily with those tools as well. So those are some of the key tools I use just to sort of add in. I guess from the photography side of the world, there's free tools for certain things. And I'm just to the point where it's like I want to focus on the creativity stuff. So I tend to pay for a tool if I feel like it's going to bring me the value to just, again, sort of stay out of my way and just let me do my thing and work. And sometimes it gets expensive because you've got your Adobe products and things, but they sort of do what they're supposed to do. And using tools like that, I just help you be more productive. So don't necessarily always try to use the free tool. I mean, if you're really tight budget or something, that's good. But sometimes the value and the efficiency some of those tools bring, whether it's directly related to task you're working on, the Baker example, probably better mixers will help you versus the cheaper ones. But those are some of the tools I use.
00:49:41 - Speaker A
I love it. Thanks for sharing those. It's so nice to hear what other people are using because then you're like, oh, I'm going to go check it out, see if it's for me. Like you said, you got to find the right fit. Like one might work better for me in my brain and one works better for you in your brain. That's so important to explore those a bit, pick them out. Love the point about sometimes you just got to pay for it. Certainly start with the free version, check it out, see if the free trial that kind of stuff, but I would say a huge part of our expense list is subscriptions and memberships to various tools that help us. Also love how you were just talking about make sure that the tools or whatever using aren't getting in your way. We can also over tool things where I'm like, you know what, a notebook and my all time favorite sticky notes can do the same thing. And I don't need to spend 1599 a month for virtual sticky notes for my brain. Now, for someone else, that might not be the case. So, yeah, I think it's always exploring. Figuring that stuff out for sure makes huge difference. But do find the tools. They are out there. We're living in such a cool time where there's so many awesome tools, but you're right, sometimes I'm like, is this saving me time or is this actually making more work for me right now?
00:50:59 - Speaker B
Right.
00:51:00 - Speaker A
Good things to think about. Okay, so a couple of things I want to make sure as we're kind of wrapping up here, I have some rapid fire questions for you just for fun. But before we jump into those, I want to make sure that people who are interested in connecting with you have the ability to do that. So we'll of course put some links and ways that they can connect. But if someone wants to hop into your newsletter, is it best for them to go to your website? What's the best way to do that?
00:51:27 - Speaker B
Yes, if you go to my website, Jeffretlock.com, there'll be a sign up for the newsletter there. It's usually at the bottom of every page, and like I said, it's a bi weekly. I try not to be overly annoying, and usually my newsletter content is much more focused on something educational, maybe a little trip report, usually a link to a YouTube video that maybe I've done in the past. And I do announce my workshops there first, but it's usually just a little paragraph or two and then I don't drown people on information with it's. If you're interested, click through and then here's all the info. It's more of just a early notice type situation. So newsletter sign up is there. It's a great way to stay in touch. Social media. I'm active on Instagram and I have a Facebook business page, Jeffrey's had, like photography, which I maintain and stay active on. And if you're more of the LinkedIn type, I am also over on LinkedIn, either as a business account or a Jeffrey Tadlock photography business page. But I would say Instagram, if you want to see regular stuff, I'm very active on there. And then the newsletter is always just a great way to see what's going on. If you don't want to follow all the time but get an occasional hopeful landscape photography tip or photography tip and just see, oh, there's a workshop or something coming up.
00:52:34 - Speaker A
Yeah, and one of the things I just. Want to say is, obviously if you're listening and you're interested in photography, go follow. Right. It's always good to have inspiration. Even if you're not a landscape photographer, it's still just so good to have inspiration from other creatives. But then the other thing along those lines is, even if you're not a photographer, I think it's hugely beneficial to follow people who are doing the thing, running a business. You have a newsletter, I like to just check out other people's email newsletters and go, oh, that was a cool idea. I'm not that industry, but I like how they have incorporated this, or I like the cadence they have, or that was a nice format. So just to encourage everyone, maybe go check it out, get on the newsletter for a know and just see what you, Jeffrey, are doing. Because I think there can be a lot to be gained just to learn from each.
00:53:26 - Speaker B
Yep.
00:53:26 - Speaker A
All right, are you ready for some rapid fire questions here?
00:53:29 - Speaker B
I think all right, maybe cool.
00:53:32 - Speaker A
What do you think is the biggest misconception about owning a business that you're.
00:53:39 - Speaker B
Going to spend and I alluded to this earlier that you're going to spend all of your time doing what you got into the business to do, whether it be the photography side of the world, the baking example we've been using. When you get into the business aspect, so much of it becomes about the process, building the business, marketing, and even some of the administrative, less fun things like taxes and things like that. But I think there's several good things that come with that. But that's probably one of the big misconceptions, I think. Everyone thinks I'm out there living in the wilderness all the time, taking pictures all the time. And yes, what you see on social media makes it look like that, but I spend a lot of time right here in this office and working on making sure those things happen.
00:54:16 - Speaker A
Yeah, we get asked all the time because Troy obviously is posting great pictures and I post pictures of travels and I'll post them later in the year and they're like, man, you just travel all the time? I'm like, well, actually, that was three months ago. But what's your favorite kickback and relax beverage?
00:54:31 - Speaker B
Oh, kickback and relax. I would say I like my morning coffee a lot. I really enjoy the taste of my morning coffee, and I enjoy a lot of times my first part of the day is get my coffee, and it's just a casual check of things I sort of center before I start. I'm not one of those types that wake up and immediately starting the work. It's more of a give me my half an hour, 45 minutes with my coffee, and I'll just sort of see what's going on out there in the world and no obligation, so enjoy my coffee and definitely for an afternoon pick me up.
00:55:06 - Speaker A
I'm not surprised to hear you say that because I've watched some of your YouTube videos. And you have a YouTube video about how to make sure you have your coffee.
00:55:16 - Speaker B
I do.
00:55:17 - Speaker A
While traveling and like in a tent and how you warm it. I was kind of fascinated. I'm a tea drinker, more of a hot tea drinker, but I had to chuckle to myself a little bit. I'm like, these are real things, though. When you're out traveling, you have to think about is how am I going to prepare my favorite whatever.
00:55:35 - Speaker B
And I've recently discovered Gourmet Instant Coffees, a buddy of mine that I traveled with because again, I have to have my coffee in the morning. And I was doing French press style and that gets all messy. And he's like, try this. And I'm like, this is going to be disgusting. And it was really good. And so, yeah, my morning coffee on the road is always evolving.
00:55:53 - Speaker A
Yeah, the routine you have to update so you guys can go check out his YouTube video just on traveling and coffee. Is there a favorite song or book or podcast, just anything that's just really inspiring you right now or you're enjoying.
00:56:11 - Speaker B
So this is going to sound silly and cliche, but I enjoy the Gary Vee podcast.
00:56:17 - Speaker A
Oh, yeah.
00:56:18 - Speaker B
And he's not for everybody. I know that. And when I first started listening to him, he wasn't for me. But then it's just like he says, he has all these people that don't like him initially, and then they listen to him a few more times and next thing you know, they listen to. Yeah, but that's a podcast I listen to somewhat frequently because being a business owner, I think it can get lonely, it can get hard sometimes. And love him or hate him, he's very energetic. And if I'm having a time where I'm not feeling very energetic, I can toss on one of his 1520 minutes podcasts. And it's like he brings you up. And like I said, I know he's not liked by everybody, but Gary Vee is a podcast that I tend to listen to a lot that's around business, just because it's almost like a pep talk.
00:57:03 - Speaker A
I've listened to Gary Vee as well, and I know exactly what you're talking about. If you haven't checked it out, go check out some of the Gary Vee Show podcasts and know, I go through Spurts. And what it is, is sometimes I can get too revved up because he is revved up. And I'm like, whoo, I got to chill for a minute. I can get listening to too much. And then I'm like, my hamster is on the wheel. It is not off the wheel. It is like going. So I know what you're talking about. But it is like getting a pep talk, a kick in the butt, and a hug all at the same time, 100% is.
00:57:37 - Speaker B
And that's funny because I have to do breaks from it too, just because it's like just all intense and it's like, okay, I need to not listen for this little bit, right?
00:57:44 - Speaker A
For sure. What just really excites you about the future?
00:57:51 - Speaker B
I mean, I feel like it's wide open. One of the things with having a business is you have a lot of control for better or for worse, if you do the right things and it can be really cool. You do the wrong things and it can be a struggle. But I feel like a lot of things are moving the right direction. It's not quite there yet, but things are moving the right direction. So to me that's opportunity and sort of optimistic towards things. Again, I find the process and the journey fun, which helps me feel like I'm doing the right thing and moving the right way. So hopefully it all comes together and clicks. But I'm enjoying myself now, having a good time and I enjoy where I'm at, I enjoy where I think it's all heading towards. So that's sort of how I see the future and what I'm excited about.
00:58:31 - Speaker A
I love it and it just really brings everything full circle, right about that passion being there. I just want to say again about the passion piece because I think it can be so easy as a business owner to get so deep in whatever it is you're doing to start to lose that. And so I hope that this is encouraging to people who are listening right now to just feel encouraged. Either if they're in the middle of something and they're thinking like, yes, I'm super passionate about it, I'm on the right track, or I don't know if I'm passionate about this anymore, it is okay. You can question those things and it is important to question and think about them. And if you're just getting started, really think about what you're passionate about and be okay with that changing. So it's huge. Okay, last two here. So what is something people often get wrong about you?
00:59:21 - Speaker B
Probably that they probably think I'm more extroverted than I really am because YouTube channel, you'd think, oh, this person, I'm on a video camera talking and a lot of people find that really hard and it does take some energy. I'm a little bit more of the introverted processing person. So probably that I'm not quite as extroverted necessarily as some people would think would probably be something that people get wrong.
00:59:46 - Speaker A
Same here, for sure. All right, and then last one here, the big one. What do you think business owners can do that makes the world a better place?
00:59:58 - Speaker B
To me, it's become one of my mantras recently, but just be kind in all things. There's hard days, there's going to be days, customers, clients are rubbing you the wrong way, but it's probably not coming from a place of ill will or ill intent and it's like take a step back, just try to be kind and just sort of push that type of energy forward. There's a lot of divisiveness around out there and being under the pressures of a business and trying to make it it's easy to start to see it's customer versus you type situation. And it's like, just be kind. And that doesn't mean get taken advantage of, but be kind. Put that energy out there. And I truly believe it makes things better all around. And that small thing you do for somebody or interaction you have with a vendor or even a competing business, we don't need to turn this into, I'm a landscape photographer. How many thousands and thousands and thousands of landscape photographers. I can be kind to them. I don't need to be ruthless in business or try to take anything away from them. Just put out that be kind. And I feel like that's just something as a business owner that we can help make the world a better place.
01:01:07 - Speaker A
Yeah, I'm with you for sure there. That's awesome. Well, I know you mentioned before we hopped on here, I think you're headed out on a trip. Is that am?
01:01:15 - Speaker B
I am heading out this weekend to West Virginia and spending a couple of nights in the Forerunner photographing.
01:01:23 - Speaker A
Is that what you're doing?
01:01:24 - Speaker B
Yep. Photography. It's a non workshop. It's just going out with some friends I went to Death Valley with. But we're going out, and this is a situation where I get to go explore a couple areas that I wouldn't take workshop participants because it's a little more rugged to get to some of the areas. But it's a chance for me to go explore and then some different conditions and things like that.
01:01:44 - Speaker A
Excellent. Well, have a great trip. I'm jealous already. I love traveling.
01:01:49 - Speaker B
I know. You're always traveling from your Facebook.
01:01:52 - Speaker A
I know. Traveling always out, for sure. Well, safe travels to you and thank you so much for sharing and just really the encouragement about following your passions and the nitty gritty things, too, like being able to get down into those. I think that's huge. But, yeah, get out there. We'll let you hop off so you can pack and go or jump in the car and go, maybe.
01:02:14 - Speaker B
Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate you having the opportunity to talk. And I hope people listening to the podcast found it peaceful. Awesome.