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Welcome to The Dr. JJ Thomas Podcast! Here I'll be talking all things physical therapy, raw and unplugged, giving you the unfiltered insights you've been searching for in your cash-based physical therapy business. If you're caught in the grind of the traditional model, swamped with paperwork, or feeling like you're not reaching your full potential as a physical therapist, this podcast was created just for you.
People think like, oh, I have this research research article, therefore, I'm right and you're wrong. It's like, no. You're missing the point of the research then, bro. The research doesn't make you right. It's there to make you less wrong.
Mike Stella:That's what it's there to do. Yeah. It doesn't make you right.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Also, it's it's meant to make you less wrong in that exact
Mike Stella:specific scenario. Law clinical. Exactly. Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Hey, everybody. Welcome to the doctor JJ Thomas podcast. I'm like, I'm like beyond excited today for our guest. If you can see him already, he's he's legit as always. We were just talking pre pre hitting record about all his his technological nerdiness that comes out in, in all of his social media presence.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Mike Stella, thank
Mike Stella:you so much, doctor JJ. I appreciate it. This is awesome.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. And don't and just drop the doctor. That's just
Mike Stella:That's for the place.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Just for the title. Just drop it JJ. But that's for the yeah. That's for the whatever. And but let me tell you a little bit about if most of you probably know Mike because most people that follow me, I I I would assume, have already found Mike because Mike's really a leader in the in in the field of sports medicine.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Mike Stella, the the movement underground, is is like his trademark, and part of what makes him so unique and special. There's a lot to Mike, and I we're gonna tap into it, I think, in a little bit. But I, to introduce you, Mike, really, really what I really wanted to say to our audience is, there's there's four things about you that I love that, make me so excited to have you here. Number 1 is you're one of the smartest dudes I've ever listened to. I mean, just hands down, regardless of your background training, education, you you you've got the brainpower.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Number 2, you're honest as hell. Like, the you know, what you see is what you get. You know, I love that about you. And from a from a from a cash based practice perspective or from a from a business perspective, I think there's a a more value to that than just the fact that I love you know, for me, I always try to in my life, I only wanna be around honest people. But I think from a business side, that's really valuable too.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So I wanna a little bit about that. Number 3, you're to the point. So, like, you don't waste anybody's time. You're like, this is the nuts and bolts, everybody. Here you go.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Let's not waste any time. Let's just get down to business. 3rd 3rd amazing thing. And the 4th 4th thing, which which I can't leave out, is that you're mission driven. And I just I love that about you.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, everything you do has a purpose. Everything you, all of your content has a purpose. And, so
Mike Stella:I mean
Dr. JJ Thomas:You guys are in for a treat.
Mike Stella:Like, that is very, very nice of you, say. And it means a lot to me coming from an esteemed colleague. So, wow, I I'm blown away, and that's I really, really appreciate that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Now don't and I don't mean to, like, put you on the spot with all the all the accolades early on, but I think yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. Well, I had to I had to get it out there because I think people that know me know that I'm I'm very similar in that sense.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, I don't wanna waste anybody's time. I wanna be very honest with everybody all the time, and and so I just I really admire those things about you. So thank you for coming on. In that in that sense, because, like, now with that framework for people that don't already know those things about you, I was hoping you could introduce your background a little bit. Like, that's one of the things first things I wanna know is where did Mike Stella come from?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, what give us a little bit about your background and journey. I mean, I've read things about your high school injuries and and all those things, but whatever you think is relevant to to what's made you be who you are today.
Mike Stella:I mean, a lot of it comes from that. Obviously, the personal experience side being an injured athlete. You know? And, you know, so I played lacrosse. Lacrosse was, like, my main sport in high school growing up, although I did play football.
Mike Stella:I did indoor track and field. I did bowling. I did a lot of different stuff. So I was always into athletics and sports. That was my jam, and then, you know, I blew my knee out.
Mike Stella:So it was like the classic athletic trainer story of I tore my ACL, PCL, MCL meniscus, and and that really was a yeah. It was a we had a tibial plateau fracture. So I had microfracture procedure done on it. Yeah. Literally.
Mike Stella:Yeah. Dislocation.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, I'll be honest. When I read your story, I was sort of like, I you know, I read blue. And and I know how it is. Sometimes when you have to write these things, you you gotta have, like, a little bit of word flavoring, but, but you you legitimately blew it out. Collision injury.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I'm so sorry.
Mike Stella:It's it's one of those things that just kinda set me on this path. And and now looking back on it, I'm really grateful for it. Right? So it it's, you know, at the time
Dr. JJ Thomas:the same way.
Mike Stella:It was terrible. And, you know, my my aspirations to play d one lacrosse on a full ride, all that kinda went away. And and Marist was the Marist College is the last d one to offer me any money, and they just happen to have an athletic training program. So it really just worked out in that way. But really, you know, my own I guess, like, how I got to where I am today was more because I just got so frustrated with athletic training as a profession.
Mike Stella:You know, I love it, but it pays absolutely nothing. It was a ton of hours, and it was an amazing experience. You know? I got to work with some amazing athletes. I worked at the University of Florida.
Mike Stella:It was my first job out of school. So being a part of a national championship football team and, you know, a track and field program that had 9 Olympians on it, it was just it was incredible. It was a great experience.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:But I really struggled in my personal life in those years. Like, in my graduate years, I I went to George Washington University. I got my my my MBA in in sports management, and I had some exercise science there for my master's as well. And so I always loved this stuff. I was always a self starter, always loved reading and learning, and, you know, and also that was kind of fueled by I grew up in a single parent household, and my mom was sick, well, you know, in in my adult years and terminally ill.
Mike Stella:So it was kinda like I had no backup plan. It was either a success or or die or or that was it. So there was really nothing else for me except for finding a pathway forward. And, starting my own business really came about from, like, just being really burnt out and really frustrated with sports medicine and athletic training. And it was either go and get a, quote, unquote, a real job or or regular job or figure out a way to make this business thing work.
Mike Stella:And, you know, I just kinda never looked back. So it was fueled out of a lot of, like
Dr. JJ Thomas:So
Mike Stella:kinda negative, gnarly times and
Dr. JJ Thomas:Which is which is where the most the highest performers come from. Don't you think? Like, if you even look at sports performers, like, the ones that, I don't know if this is true, but you you might know the answer. Is it I I've heard that, the the the Williams sisters, that their dad moved them into a a impoverished neighborhood just to make sure that they knew strong.
Mike Stella:Know that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Know they they couldn't Wow. You know, like, things that I don't and I hope I'm right, but but I that's what I heard. I never I never fact checked it, but, like, it's that same thought. It's like, I don't you can't dig deep the way you need to dig deep. You can't create
Mike Stella:I'll 100%.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Faith You
Mike Stella:know, you know what that reminds me of?
Dr. JJ Thomas:It reminds me
Mike Stella:of, so I worked at University of Florida. And on Netflix, there's a documentary called Swamp Kings. And some of those athletes and now now you're talking about a program when Urban Meyer took it over that went on to win a a number of national championships. Right? But, it's always funny when I hear, like, you see on social media.
Mike Stella:It's like we gotta reverse engineer these amazing athletes and and, you know, the movements and the training. And there were there were athletes on that football program that couldn't read at a high school level. Right? Couldn't read at a high school level, couldn't pass remedial English and math tests. They weren't even taking technically college credits, but these kids were the most amazing athletes running sub ten second 100 meters.
Mike Stella:It's like they didn't have any training. They literally grew up in in the worst kind of conditions possible. Like, you know, gangs and violence and just all of the stuff that you that, like, like, nightmares are woven out of. And not only were they incredible athletes, but they also turned into incredible human beings too. So it's just interesting to me because it's like I love the sports science aspect of it.
Mike Stella:I love the exercise science part of it. But, like and and I said this on Mark Bell's podcast is we can't and we can't reverse engineer that greatness. There's something intangible there. There's all of those different psychosocial aspects to it. And, you know, and I feel a little bit of that in my own personal journey was it was, like, kinda like back against the wall.
Mike Stella:This is gonna work or it's not. And the only person I have to look at or point the finger at is myself.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That and that is I'm so glad you, like, recircled back to that because that were my thought that was my thought when you were talking. Like, I knew about your knee injury. I didn't know about your your, being raised by a single mother and and that she had an illness. And that's like the the I wanna say the visceral strength that that that pulls out of you is the same, strength that comes out of these high performer athletes that I see too. So I'm sure and and I think what it comes down to, the other thing that came to mind when you were talking about that is I think what it comes down to is, yeah, it's a decision.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You just you just you kinda said it. You were like, the only choice was either
Mike Stella:to
Dr. JJ Thomas:fail or to succeed. And if I was going to succeed, I had to push myself. Right? And so and I find that both in myself and in in high level athletes that I work with is is we find comfort in the ability to control the things we can. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, it's like, you know what? This this shit sinks sinks right now. Like, I'm worried about my mom. I'm worried about this. I can't control that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:What can I control? Okay. I control my learning. I control what I'm reading. I can control what's
Mike Stella:going on. Right? Work
Dr. JJ Thomas:ethic. I control my effort. So in a way
Mike Stella:my attitude. You know?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. And it gives us, like, solace. Right? Like, okay. I'm working towards something.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I have control over something. So that's really cool. So, when how if you mind me asking, like, how old were you about when that started? Was that high school was that all
Mike Stella:high school when you say was first diagnosed with breast cancer my freshman year of college. So it was like we played a we played a college lacrosse game and, you know, she was there. And then she's like, you know, I want you to come home for the weekend with me, and I was like, that's kinda weird. And then that's when she told me the first time. You know, so she went through the chemo, you know, double mastectomy, the whole thing, and then, she was in remission for 7 years.
Mike Stella:And then my grandparents, my so my mom's parents who I was very, very close with, I actually lost both of them within a 18 month period of time. And then my mom followed them shortly after. So it was my both my grandparents and my mom within, like, a two and a half year period of time. So that was around that was from, like, 2012 to 2015. So, like
Dr. JJ Thomas:And you were exposed to that at that point.
Mike Stella:So 2012, I had just graduated with my master's degree, and I took so I was living in DC at that time, and I took a job at LIU Brooklyn, which is a small division 1 in Brook I was just trying to find any job that I could get in New York so that I could get home Yeah. To kinda ins right.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's where I'm from. Yep. This is where I'm from. Born and raised on Long Island.
Mike Stella:You know, I jumped around a little bit after college, but I ended up coming back. But I ended up coming back because of my mom. When I moved to Florida, I thought I'd never come back. I thought it was that was it for me.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:But I came back to help her in her, you know, final final year, final months, and, and that's kinda when I got into starting the business at the literally around that same time. So my former business partner we're not partners anymore. He that's another whole long story. We could talk about that if you want. But, Okay.
Mike Stella:It was like he was going on his honeymoon. So, like, I buried my mom on a Friday, and I was back at work on Saturday. So I didn't even, like, mourn. I didn't get any chance. He went on his honeymoon for 2 weeks, and I ran the business that we were running and at the time.
Mike Stella:And yeah. So it was it was really it was a pretty dark time, and it was, I don't even truthfully, I don't really even remember a lot of it. It was just kinda, like, blackout, do the work, and go home and eat and sleep and do it again.
Dr. JJ Thomas:But but that's the refreshing thing about you is, like, you do that again, you do that because you are mission driven. Like like, you were able to even though I feel for you that you weren't able to mourn your mother at that moment, I I bet part of it was, was a process for you that helped you. Yeah. Just the
Mike Stella:grief. Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Because you were able to
Mike Stella:You know, it's funny. And that's when people ask me, like, oh, how did you get to how do you know what you know? How do you get to where you are? I'm like, oh, do you wanna, like, you know, live in a dark room with, like, a bare light bulb and the water dripping down, like, where you're, like, huddled in a corner? Because that's because that's truthfully that's truthfully what it felt like.
Mike Stella:You know? It felt like a you know, at that time. But, you know, I I took I kinda was able at least I was able to a lot of people start to then channel their their attention into destructive things because it feels better. Drugs, alcohol, you know, all the other bad all the negative vices. You know?
Mike Stella:And I I just kinda funneled it into my work because that was the distraction. That was the thing that I was into, and I could read and I could read about exercise science and escape the reality of what I was dealing with. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's right. And, again, like, to me, I just I envision you and I think that gave you some semblance of control. Like, you could control what you could. And it seems to me when I watch your content on social media and YouTube, and it seems to me that you have a similar philosophy with the way you approach rehab. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, control the things you can. Do the best you can at controlling the things you can't you know, you feel out of control with. Like like, regress them to a point where you can have some semblance of control on it, and then eventually you overcome it. That's really, really cool. Thank you for sharing that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's, yeah. What about so when did you open the Movement Underground? Was it that So you had already opened it.
Mike Stella:Original business, I was calling it Recovery Lab. And and the mistake I had made was so I I, so I had partnered with during those those years, I was working I was working at a physical therapy clinic in the city. So I left college athletic training because I was just burnt out. I just couldn't do it anymore. The hours that I was making $29 a year.
Mike Stella:I was working 80 hours a week.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Talk about a think I mean, that is again, that's a whole another topic. Athletic trainers get no
Mike Stella:No luck. No Red headed stepchildren.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Love. No love. It's all grind. They don't get paid enough. I mean, I'm with you.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I could I could totally share it.
Mike Stella:Which is ironic because it's like so many, like, rehab people, you know, chiros, PTs, LMTs, athletic trainer, like the rehab professions. Right? Like, all wanna work with athletes and then athletic trainers get to do that, but we get paid pennies and peanuts to do it. So you get a nice pat on the back and some team gear, and I guess that's the reimbursement. It doesn't really Yeah.
Mike Stella:Pay your bills out.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You're No. You guys are grinders. Yes. Anyways collegiate sports medicine. You left that.
Mike Stella:Just because I couldn't I just couldn't I didn't see a future. I was like, I got all the student loan debt. I'm I'm by myself. I have no I can't even go live at home and just save money because my mom didn't have a house. So I was like, I was on my own, and by the time, like, at that time, I was living in in Queens in, like, a really shitty neighborhood, honestly.
Mike Stella:It was, like, death death sentence every day. I'd leave to go commute to work, but, I basically by the time I paid my student loans and my rent, I was broke for the month. So I literally bartended on the weekend. So I would I would work I would work from 6 AM on and open the training room at 6 AM. I'd be there till 5.
Mike Stella:I negotiated with my boss to let me leave on Fridays at 5 so I could take the train to the city and bartend from 6:6 PM to 5 AM. And then I go straight back to the school
Dr. JJ Thomas:Holy moly.
Mike Stella:Shower, take a nap on a treatment table, and then I would prep men's soccer for their Saturday game at, like, 8 AM. That's just Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:The the cold cement that was your cold cement 100%. Dark room that you were in.
Mike Stella:So that just wasn't sustainable. You know? So I I took a job at a PT clinic, you know, as kinda like an aid, I guess. But, you know, now here I am having worked with Olympic level athletes. I worked at the University of Florida, George Washington University.
Mike Stella:I was in charge of rehabbing and training multimillion dollar athletes, and now I'm folding tables and, you know, wiping wiping the tables down, folding towels, you know, stretching people. I wasn't allowed to make any decisions on, you know, client care, but oh, patient care, but then on the same and then the same breath, like, my boss at that time would be like, oh, we just hired 2 new PTs. We need you to train them in manual therapy and exercise. And I'm like
Dr. JJ Thomas:Exactly. Well and that's the thing that impressed me about you when I looked up. So do you know how I originally found you was through
Mike Stella:our mutual
Dr. JJ Thomas:guy, Jack Kelly? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and which is crazy because I should have found you way before that because you like I said, you're amazing.
Dr. JJ Thomas:But and then when I when I found you through Jack Kelly, my colleague Eric Abramowitz, who I think you, who I think you might Yeah. I mean, I know he follows you, but I was like, you heard of this guy, Mike Stella? And he's like, oh, yeah. It's amazing. You know?
Dr. JJ Thomas:It was cute. So then he he boy crushed on you a little bit for a while. But but my point of all that again is that, you are and not to compare, but, like, you know, as an athletic trainer, your your knowledge and skills are far above many PTs I know. So it's kind of it's crazy to hear you in this room, like, you know, and and mostly they were making, you know, high
Mike Stella:Well, then that's like the politics.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like that. But, yeah, they wanted you to train the politics.
Mike Stella:Of it and the prudentialism and, like, oh, you're just an athletic trainer. And and then you start to feel that way too. Like, oh, I'm less than. You know? But I here I am with all this experience.
Mike Stella:And, again, you know, I'm I'm a bright guy. Like, I'm a smart guy. But I and it wasn't like it just, like, came to
Dr. JJ Thomas:me. Yeah.
Mike Stella:Like, I put a lot of time and a lot of effort No. Into learning what I know and, you know, trying to be the best I could be because my athletic career didn't go the way I wanted it to. You know? So a lot of it was out of kind of, like, a selfish insecurity of, like, figuring out my own injury issues and figuring out my own body. Like, why am I not getting better if I was if I've done everything everybody's asked me to do?
Mike Stella:So so and now here I am at this clinic that makes a lot of money and, you know, and I'm looking around. I'm like, wow. This is, like, like, this is bullshit. Like, this is this is awful.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. Like, I know I
Mike Stella:could do this better. And so I think part of it for me at that time was like, alright. You know what? I think I can do this better. I think I couldn't really figure out, you know, if it was legal or not.
Mike Stella:Like, how does it work with cash pay for athletic training? There was no precedent.
Dr. JJ Thomas:The same thing PT
Mike Stella:could outside of the medical scope now as soon as you're outside of the Medicare and and insurance realm. Right? So I tried to figure it out. Right. Really ran into a lot of dead ends, and I just decided, you know what?
Mike Stella:I'm gonna go for it. And either I end up broke, which I'm already broke, so it doesn't really matter. I end up in jail, which is an upgrade. At least I have to pay rent, or I succeed and, you know, maybe I have some ability to change my life. You know?
Mike Stella:So be a great thing. For me, it seems like the ladder is kinda what's happening, so that's good.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So how many so when you first started, was it just you? And then because I see you have quite a few athletic trainers with you now. Right?
Mike Stella:I have a massage therapist. I have a physical therapist, and 2 shelf and conditioning coaches. Oh, cool. So my the vision for it is, like, multidisciplinary. I don't I don't really care so much about the credential.
Mike Stella:Like, I don't care about the skill. I care about the will. That's what I'm looking for.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. Oh, that's a good line. That's a great line. That is a 100% right too. Like, it's gotta be the right fit, but it it it yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:It's not even it you probably care about the skill. It's probably more that you don't care about the skill
Mike Stella:that you're looking for. It's like I'm more than happy to teach the skills. You know, I'm confident in my ability to teach
Dr. JJ Thomas:the framework. They will.
Mike Stella:But what I you know, like, if one of the things that, you know, I'm I'm really proud of with the staff we have now is just, like, all these guys believed in me believed in me and the vision I had way before I was able to pay them anything. You know? So a lot of them were in started as interns. You know, my my general manager over the facility, he was one of my former athletes that I rehab from Tommy John. He went on to play professional baseball for a few years and was kinda, like, helping me when he wasn't playing baseball in the summers.
Mike Stella:And then, you know, now in the twilight of his baseball career, he's full time and, you know, he helps me kinda run the day to day in the back end of the business. But well and now my new DPT, he's a new grad physical therapist, but he was one of my original clients that I trained 10 years ago. You know? So he was one of my soccer athletes that I treated and trained. I rehabbed him from an ankle reconstruction, and, you know, we became friends and or, like, we stayed in touch, and he went to physical therapy school.
Mike Stella:And he just graduated, so we're onboarding him now. So it's really a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Really cool. I can't wait to see more of him, you know, because because like I said, I that's my mission is is to push physical therapists to do more of this model. Like, I think our models are very similar. Our model at Primal and your model at the Movement Underground are very similar in the sense that it's very patient focused. It's very bullshit
Mike Stella:Mhmm.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, avoidant. Like, we're like like like like just like you the I I don't care about the skill. I care about the will. I feel that way about patients too. Like, I don't want a patient if you don't have the will.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Don't don't waste your money with us if you
Mike Stella:really want to be here. Because your doctor said you have to be here, then this is not the right place for you.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the model's great for the world and, and builds a lot of growth mentally, physically, emotionally, in general.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So I'm glad you're I'm glad you're sharing it, sharing it with the PTs. That's cool. Thank you for doing that. What and on that note, like, one of the things that, one of the things that I try to encourage PTs to do when they are opening their own practice is is, is find a niche. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:And that niche could be anything from a specific skill set. Like, you know, I people think our niche is dry needling, to be honest, but it's it's really more movement analysis, but also, just that patient I think that patient centered care. And and I I'm curious to hear what you would say your niche is. I have an opinion
Mike Stella:Let me hear your opinion first.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Because because you're also Let
Mike Stella:me hear the opinion first. Yeah. Sure.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Really? I wanna hear my opinion. I think your I think what makes your niche you is is kinda what we just said. It's really, it's really your target audience of, if you don't wanna bullshit around. Like, it's like your niche is your audience.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, cut the bullshit. I'm here. I'm here because I wanna be here, and I'm here because I believe I I believe what you have is valuable. And but I I don't want any fluff. And to me, that's that's almost your niche.
Dr. JJ Thomas:It's like, the niche is the audience.
Mike Stella:When I first started doing social media stuff, it wasn't I didn't really have any I had no clue what I was doing. I I didn't really know what my goal was for it except for, you know, I started this recovery lab thing with this former partner, and it was a kind of an unproven concept. And he didn't even think at the time that it would work. He's like, nobody's gonna pay for rehab when they could just use their insurance. And, again, this is, like, in 2013 ish.
Mike Stella:So this is, you know, before there's a lot of a lot of money in the cash pay. And even even in physical therapy, there wasn't a whole lot of cash pay at that time. You know? So it was it was really hard to find anything like that. And even I don't even think like social media at that time.
Mike Stella:It was like Instagram was, like, where you still posted your photography. Yeah. Right? So wasn't so I really started posting a lot of YouTube stuff because I read Gary V's first book. And I was like, okay.
Mike Stella:I wanna get my message out there, and I wanna be able to attract, you know, some customers. And then I I you know, somewhere along the line, it it came and, again, my earliest influences were, like, Eric Cressey and Mike Reinhold and, like, Tony gentle core and, like, all those guys because I read you know, again, I grew up, went to school in the early 2000 and mid 2000. So t nation, bodybuilding.com, like, that's kinda where you went to go get, like, movement information or training stuff. So I read a lot of their content, and I guess it kind of influenced my early my early content was, like, kinda like, oh, I'll teach you I'm gonna teach whoever wants to learn what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And that's what that's all it was.
Mike Stella:So and it was me and my little GoPro cameras, and I just kinda set up my GoPro's and and film my sessions. And and they started doing really, really well on YouTube, and and I was kinda blown away. But it what and it it attracted clients, but it was also attracting a lot of clinicians. And that wasn't my intention. That was kind of the the, I guess, the surprising bonus part.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Bonus. Yeah.
Mike Stella:And I think it's only been recently where I've like, you know what? This you know, I really wanna impact clinicians, and I really wanna impact clinicians to impact their clients. And I do think there's a sweet spot to speaking directly to the client or directly to the the end consumer, the person in pain, let's say, and then speaking to a clinical audience that Yeah. Is trying to help those same people. So there is a little bit of a gap.
Mike Stella:You know, so I'm trying to navigate that where some of my content is more geared towards people in pain, and then other content is a lot more geared towards, you know, clinic other clinicians.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I feel like we're on the same path. Like, I I have the same thing. I have, like, my and and maybe it's our age and, like, our like, I heard I I think I I just listened to your I you just posted Yeah. On YouTube, like, a day or 2 ago, and I just watched it. And and, and you I think it was there that you mentioned, like, you know, you're 40 or almost 40, and and, you know, you're thinking about having a family.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And I think at some point, as we get older, we're like, what is our purpose in life? Like like and I say this I say this to my clinicians. Like, when I first came out of school, I thought my purpose was to help patients by helping patients directly. And then the more I realized that what we were doing had had value and that people could learn from what we were doing, the more I realized my mission is also really to help clinicians just like you said. But I go through the same thing.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, I have the clinician audience and the patient audience, and it is different. I agree. What I'd love to hear about oh, wait. So what is your new wait. I I answered the niche thing, but is
Mike Stella:it You know, from those early YouTube days and even now, it started to become, like, just manual therapy and, like, soft tissue work. And it's funny because that's what tends to bring people the most through the doors. They'll see my my manual therapy content. But that's, like, maybe, like
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:Maybe 10 to 15% of what we do with clients. You know? It's such a small 100%. Right.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's just the sexy part.
Mike Stella:It's like people like, I need that. I know. I want that. And that's what gets them through the door, but it also gives me the opportunity to educate them on kind of the hierarchy of needs of, like What
Dr. JJ Thomas:else do
Mike Stella:you need? Really gonna move the needle for you? What what's the hinge that's gonna swing the door? Yep. And and then, you know For sure.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And what's gonna keep the door open?
Mike Stella:Me, I use those manual therapy sessions more as, like, you know, a little you know, those sessions like motivation, education, inspiration, you know, problem solving.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. Connecting with them.
Mike Stella:Like, you got this. Like, you know, again, it's a lot of it. You know, sometimes it's just shooting the shit and having a really cool social interaction. So I guess my my vision for the movement underground, at least from a clinical perspective, was like a PT clinic and a training facility meets a barbershop. That's kinda what I was going for.
Mike Stella:And that's what people are like, oh, this place is all like we're all having a you know, it's like 3 clinicians on the table. All our clients are joking around having a great time, you know, like, exchanging numbers. Uh-huh. Just gonna go golfing later. I'm like, this is fucking awesome.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I think you nailed it. I think you nailed that that vibe. Yeah. You totally nailed it. What, so I'm with you.
Dr. JJ Thomas:We're the same. We're in the same exact boat because people think they come to us for needling, like I said, but they really but they really it's really that's the opportunity to bond with them and and create the type of relationship that keeps. And on that note, I was I was sneaking on your website and trying to see what was new for you because you're totally that kind of guy that, you know, there's always gonna be the next thing for you. And I think I saw well, no. Maybe I saw it on 1 I don't know where I saw it, but are something, you're planning on doing some training.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right? Like, some online training for
Mike Stella:Yeah. So we I've always done virtuals. I've always done virtual stuff. You know, especially after COVID, we definitely did more virtual stuff. But now I'm really starting to flesh out that more as, like, a standalone program offering that's a little bit more robust.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:You know, previously, I just done, like, consult calls where I would kinda help people problem solve. Here's a program, and that was really kinda it. It was, like, mostly just doing these one off consultations with people. And then some people would come back and ask for more programs and do, like, a monthly thing with it. But now I'm starting to turn it into, like, a fully fledged out.
Mike Stella:Like, it's its own independent standing, like, program that we run. So I'm still working that out.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And you're talking about patient facing?
Mike Stella:About patient facing, but I'm also, yeah, I'm also working on, like, the clinic yeah. Doing the same thing with my clinical mentorship and my my business development side. So, like, yeah, it's funny. Like, before this, I just got off, a Zoom like, a 2 hour Zoom call with my marketing team that helps me build out my back end systems. And, you know, we're gonna put together, like, a really robust, like, clinical business.
Mike Stella:You know, not not we're gonna put I'm gonna put together a course, but we're really gonna put together, like, a clinical business, like, real mentorship program. We help people build clinicians, build systems, marketing systems, lead gen, like, how to do basically, pulling back the curtain for exactly what I do at the Movement Underground for how I bring patients through the door and just kinda help people rebrand it for themselves.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's really great. I'm going to, first of all, take advantage of that probably myself when you're when you're ready to roll it out. But but second of all, so we have a we have a clinical mentorship program ourselves. And I and I'm I don't do it.
Mike Stella:No. I'm not interested.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Me here. This is really about you. But but but I'm loving the like, you're gonna love it. I feel like it's really rewarding. And I I went from a right now, we're doing a 6 month.
Dr. JJ Thomas:We're in the middle of a 6 month, which is awesome. And it's a very small group of people that, we can I can connect with, and you you're gonna love that? I am trying out a 3 month one for next time. But, but I think people are gonna be really it's gonna be so valuable for people to learn from you in that setting and and widen your audience. Like, they don't have to learn in person.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You can have people from all over
Mike Stella:the place. I do some, like, business mentorship, like, same thing. It was, like, kinda same thing as my virtual clients. Like, people would
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:Approach me for it. I do have a pricing SKU on my website for that, and people would book the Zoom calls with me. And I'd, like, just really help them get granular with their business and to kinda understand really what it is they're trying to do. Yeah. Help them strategize and put systems in place and, you know, and then it would just be that.
Mike Stella:Like, a few one off calls. I'm, you know, giving them all the tips and tricks that I can on a very one to one level. But, like, now the vision for it is to really build something out where it's a, like, a learning community. It's, you know, like a a curriculum to go through in a sense to help you build all these things so that you also understand how to implement them and how to use them. Because these tools are amazing, but they're super complicated.
Mike Stella:And if you don't and, like, I think a lot of people go out there and they're like, oh, I'm gonna hire this marketing company. Build me this GHL system or build me a Zapier system, and then they don't know how to they don't
Dr. JJ Thomas:I don't even know what those two things
Mike Stella:are. See.
Dr. JJ Thomas:What are those two things?
Mike Stella:Gotta turn you on. Shoot. So, like, ways that you so, like, think about all the different ways, like, customers find you. Maybe they got word-of-mouth referrals, they find your website or, you know, somebody or doctor refers them or you have paid ad marketing or you have organic social media traffic. It's a way to centralize all of those different leads and nurture them, you know, depending on where they're at in their journey.
Mike Stella:You know? Because, like, so, you know, like, for example, like, if you you know, one of the biggest questions I'm asked is, like, oh, how do you run how do you run ads? You know? And and I think ads are great. It's such a great tool, but, you know, ads paying for attention is like putting rocket fuel.
Mike Stella:Like, you can't you can't put rocket fuel in anything other than a rocket. Right? Because if you put rocket fuel in your car, you're gonna blow your fucking car to pieces. So right, so, like, if you take paid advertising or paid attention, and then you start throwing it into your broken systems that don't work and you have no way to nurture these people and and actually start a conversation with them to warm them up, you're just gonna blow your business to pieces because you're just gonna spend money that you can't That's
Dr. JJ Thomas:so brilliant.
Mike Stella:Like building those back end systems. So depending on where people come, how they find you or, you know, they have a very curated, customized experience. So, like, again, what is marketing? Marketing is all of the experience somebody has with you before you even meet them. Right?
Mike Stella:So, like Yeah. Right. So we just mentioned this now, but you already had, you know, some fully fledged ideas, notions, thoughts, questions, you know, just from put it just from seeing the stuff I put out there. Right? So that drives a lot of business for me.
Mike Stella:Sure. But, you know, it's also other things that you have to do too. Like, you have to be in your local community. Right? You have to be a steward in your community.
Mike Stella:So, it's just a way to organize that so that it's organized. It's, it's doable. It's not, like, all over the place where it's just like, okay. My ass is on fire. What am I gonna what am I who am I gonna talk to today?
Mike Stella:It's like it's very curated and organized, and it helps people figure out at what point do they actually wanna take the step and enter the underground. You know?
Dr. JJ Thomas:That is awesome. Well, when you have that ironed out,
Mike Stella:I
Dr. JJ Thomas:definitely wanna have you back on and and talk more about how people can access that because well and I honestly, like, in in part of my men so my in my program, we have, we have 3 main courses that become involved that. And the the third of the 3 is a business integration piece that now as I'm talking to you, that's my that's where I'm lacking on content is because I, myself, don't know a lot of it. So I may have to I may have to have you come in as a I would
Mike Stella:love to.
Dr. JJ Thomas:As a guest speaker. And, yeah, that would be really I think that would be great for my people.
Mike Stella:And it's funny too because I got my MBA in sports management. And and at the time, I did it because I was very scared about athletic training. I already kinda knew, like, the jobs didn't pay well, and there was a lot of hours.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And not
Mike Stella:that I was already looking for an an out, like, 2 years into my career. I just wanted I was kind of, like, hedging my bets. I was like, if I have this business degree
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:If I have to pivot, at least I'm not pigeonholed into one one thing. And not to say that my master's in business really helped me start or run a business.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I was just gonna say, like, I know lots of people with a master's in business that definitely
Mike Stella:I I listen. I think it exposed me to expose me to a lot of concepts and a lot of things that maybe I wouldn't consider as a clinician, a sole clinician. But there's something about being in the trenches and owning a business and operating a business that you learn as you go. And there's plenty of things. Like, I made a lot of mistakes.
Mike Stella:You know? My first partnership being one of them. Like, not getting those things in writing and giving him all the leverage and the the control of the bank accounts. And then when it was convenient for him, he was able to cut me loose and there was no recourse for me. It was like I was just, oh, I I helped him build this $1,000,000 a year business, and now I'm just I'm on the outside looking in.
Mike Stella:You know? Now fortunately for me, I learned a lot of mistakes and I made a lot of mistakes during that process. So when I was able to start to move in underground, I was able to hit the ground running. I already had a client list. A lot of my clients came with me and, you know, but I had to start over and start from scratch.
Mike Stella:Right. So again, there's just things that you do because we're passionate about this. So you overlook steps in the process. You know, but now, you know, 10 years in, I'm like, okay. I think I have a pretty good handle on what I would do differently if I was starting over again.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And that's the goal that's the goal with all this me me teaching physical therapist, you teaching other other people who wanna open their their sports medicine business, like, is to save that to try to save them you hit the hot holes, and you know what what hot holes to avoid. Right? You had the road rash, and you're not gonna forget that road rash. And if you can save someone else from the road rash, then, then they're gonna hopefully get on that path a little faster. That's cool.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Thank you. It's awesome that you share it so freely and, too. Like that well, oh, so I was listening to it was still it's still that same. I was watching you on that
Mike Stella:Is it the new vlog? The vlog episode?
Dr. JJ Thomas:It was the new vlog. Yeah. Where you're treating some plantar fasciitis. I love to get my hands on you, by the way. I'll drive up to New York.
Mike Stella:I need some help. I could throw some needles in there. So yeah. Like, go ahead. Go ahead.
Mike Stella:Finish your question because or, like, whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. I was just gonna say, so I was gonna say a couple things that a couple things of watching that are what help me get give you those top four things I love about you, to be honest. And, and the one of the honesty came out from you know, I freaking love that you hear you're recovering recovering from your, your surgery, your parathyroid surgery. Right? And, and clearly, like, you're out of breath.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You don't give you don't give a you don't give a f. Like, you're, like, totally out of breath and you're just moving on. Like, yeah. Yeah, people. I'm out of shape, but I'm getting back into it.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, you know what
Mike Stella:I mean?
Dr. JJ Thomas:It was not And
Mike Stella:that's the thing. You know, it's like social media. Right? We pick we pick and choose what we show people. And in the beginning, I was very careful.
Mike Stella:No. That's not a 100% true. I was very careful. I only really shared, like, my business and my clinical stuff, you know, because that's what I was confident. Yeah.
Mike Stella:But in the you know? But, again, in those years of struggling, I wasn't prioritizing my health. I was surviving. I wasn't I wasn't Well,
Dr. JJ Thomas:and that was I was
Mike Stella:going I was working and then driving to my mom to help her, like, clean her body Yeah. Like, take care of her. And, like, that's what I was doing.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You were prioritizing. You were you had to put a smile
Mike Stella:on it. Years, I kinda, like, really my fitness wasn't the priority anymore. Like, in graduate school, if you looked at if you looked at a picture of me and, again, I don't have any pictures really because it was 2,009.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You were busy.
Mike Stella:Didn't there was no, like, taking pictures on your phone. Right? It was like I had a I had a Blackberry and it looked like Lego pixels, you know? So it's like no before and after photos from back then. But, you know, I was in really, really good shape.
Mike Stella:You know, I was a division 1 athlete. You know, I got into bodybuilding after that. So I was, you know, really, really good shape. And so and then, you know, just like over the years became less consistent because I was so focused on the business that it wasn't it wasn't my immediate priority. I was treating clients.
Mike Stella:I was building the business. I was getting out there, doing my education stuff, teaching for Octate. So it was just I just didn't really prioritize my own health and fitness. And I'm like, here I am. I own a gym.
Mike Stella:I'm like, I'm just not gonna be the guy that owns a gym and doesn't train consistently. So and then, you know, obviously, the parathyroid thing, and that's been, like, the last year and a half Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You had a reason.
Mike Stella:To kinda figure it out. And Yeah. And, truthfully, like, even as I tried to start training over the last year and a half since we've had the new facility, I just really struggled. Like, I just didn't feel good, and I knew something was going on. I was like, there's no reason why, you know, my 3rd set of an exercise, why my output would drop off so precipitously.
Mike Stella:It's like, it doesn't make any sense. You know? Yeah. Like, I've been, I know I'm not in that bad a shape, you know, but, like, it's like, woah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right. Well and it should change eventually. Right? Like, with like, our bodies are trainable, and you've seen that with your clients. So it's like, why I love that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I mean, you've you've you self advocated and you figured it out. And then and then that's a in your vlog for that I, you know, that I was watching, you're like you're like you you said that. You said, I'm, you know, I'm embarrassed that I haven't been able to haven't been prioritizing my own health. That ends now. That's all you said, and I was like, freaking love that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, boom. Flip it like a switch.
Mike Stella:Here we go. And, again, it comes from you know, and that's the part that people and that's kinda what the point of the vlog is because and this was really my videographer's idea, James, who's another former client who is the record holder for bear crawling in ultramarathon. Like, the kid's a fucking stud. But he got into videography. Yeah.
Mike Stella:Yeah. He broke Devin Levesque's record for bear crawling a marathon. He bear crawled an ultramarathon. 31 miles
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's
Mike Stella:through New York City.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Ridiculous.
Mike Stella:So he learned about videography just doing that for himself, and then he started doing it for other people, me included. So, you know, it's hard. Right? It's hard to tell these stories without context. And that's why I look at it.
Mike Stella:I love Instagram, but Instagram is just not the place for context or nuance. You just can't do it there.
Dr. JJ Thomas:It's not.
Mike Stella:So it's really tough.
Dr. JJ Thomas:People have to get on the YouTube.
Mike Stella:YouTube vlog is kind of, like, our vision for like, we're still gonna do, like, our session sit in videos, which is, like, super clinical, super nerdy. And I think that's what I'm most known for. We're still gonna do the podcast there, But, like, these vlogs are gonna be kinda pulling the curtain back on my life so people can understand the person behind the brand because of all the things, like, we've been talking about that kinda led me to where I am. It's not just the clinical stuff. It's, you know, who the journey I've walked as a as a man, as a person.
Mike Stella:So, so that's what the vlog is intending to do is just kinda like, hey. Listen. I'm a I'm a a regular dude. You know, I do this for a living. I love what I do.
Mike Stella:But I'm a regular guy with regular guy problems.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And Yeah.
Mike Stella:You know, I struggle with my health and fitness just like everybody else, but but it it comes down to choices. It's like right now, I'm making a conscious choice. I have the resources. I have the knowledge. I have the ability to do these things, and I'm not just surviving anymore.
Mike Stella:Thank god. So it's like Right. Now is the time, and it's not for vanity's sake. It's because both my parents died young from from otherwise what would have been preventable illnesses. That's like, I'm not gonna do that to my wife.
Mike Stella:Not gonna do it to her. So I'll do everything I can to not have that happen. And then there's still no guarantee. Right? There's still no guarantee that that goes the way you want it to go, but, again, it's not gonna be for lack of effort.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. That's awesome. That is that's it. And that's the that's the like, that's our market. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:That they're the people we want too. So I love it. That. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. I'll I'll continue to to watch it. And
Mike Stella:It's cool. It's cool because, like, you know, you it's like, oh, I got a few 100 views. That's cool. But it's like it's those are people that watch that that were interested. It's like, fuck.
Mike Stella:That's crazy. It's a few 100 people interested enough in my life that are like, woah. I wanna watch this. I'm like, woah. It's kind of a surreal thing, honestly.
Mike Stella:It's very, very odd for me.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I agree. I'm with you, and I'm not I'm nowhere near where you are, but I feel that and isn't it here, I have a question for you that that I didn't plan on asking you. I find like, I think we're both kinda extroverted people. Right? And we're also very
Mike Stella:I'm an introverted extroverted. Right? And believe it or not.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's what I was just gonna say to you. I am too. And that's where this question is coming from. Like, I think we're very social on on surface level extroverted. We're very we're we're an open book, so we're easy to open up.
Dr. JJ Thomas:But I do I still, myself, sometimes struggle with the the social media side of,
Mike Stella:Like, what to share?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Of exactly that. The well, no. No. No. No.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Like, the humility that I have when I'm trying to like, when I'm you know, you're trying to reach a broader audience, so you're you're you're putting yourself out there again and again and again and again. And I just sometimes, for instance, I had a business coach and, he's still a friend, and I'm just not currently working with him right now. Amazing, amazing guy. But I came to him when I was first working with him, and we were working on my social media stuff. And I like I was like, it's Badgers Collin.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And I I like, yeah. And I I like I was like he's like, how's it going? I'm like, Badrios, I feel like a narcissist. Like, what the heck? Like, look at my social media.
Dr. JJ Thomas:It's just my face, my face, my face. Like, I was like I don't know. I just there's a part that I think there's a part of me sometimes that worries about, like, is that does it ever feel like it's changing you? You know what I mean? I don't know.
Dr. JJ Thomas:No. No. I'm getting deep on you, but
Mike Stella:I love it. That I that's why I love doing these. Like, I'm I'm happy to talk about whatever clinical stuff you wanna talk about, but I think we're pretty much in line on the clinical stuff. You know? Like, we have a very similar perspective.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Totally.
Mike Stella:You know?
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. 99%.
Mike Stella:Me, it the thing that made me feel I used to feel that way. It's like, god, man. I'm just like so self serving. It's like I'm just putting myself out here like all and again, I was nervous in the beginning, like, oh, people. My like, I had a big time imposter syndrome.
Mike Stella:Like, oh, I'm just an athletic trainer. People are gonna rip out pieces. And my my early experiences were overwhelmingly positive. So that gave me a little bit of confidence to keep going with it. Now I do get some hate.
Mike Stella:I get I get a good amount of hate too, but but it's overwhelmingly positive. It's more positive impact than negative impact. But what what meant the most to me was, like, as I started teaching rock tape, and now I'm traveling around the country teaching rock tapes education. You know? And that's kind of where along the same timeline that my social media started really growing.
Mike Stella:And now I'm interacting with these people in like a in a course, right? And that so many people would come up to me and be like, you know, what's the coolest thing about this is is like, you're exactly the same person in real life that you are online. And I'm like, awesome. Well That's what you want. Again, it wasn't any intention to not be that way, but it's like you don't know what comes off in a 30 second video.
Mike Stella:You know? But, like, this is who I am. This is my personality. But, yeah, I'm very introverted. Like, when I need to recharge the batteries, I wanna be at home with my wife and my dog.
Mike Stella:That's it. I could literally be at home
Dr. JJ Thomas:Same.
Mike Stella:And not leave and be a pig and shit. Totally happy. Yeah. You know? But if you put me in a room, like, I go to a conference and it's this kind of stuff, if it's sports medicine related, oh, I'm in on that.
Mike Stella:Right. Like, you know, send me to a wedding that I don't
Dr. JJ Thomas:really know
Mike Stella:people at. I'm like, fuck. I gotta talk to
Dr. JJ Thomas:random people. Oh, that's so funny. See, I guess yeah. I'm good with random people anywhere, but I I need my recharge time. Totally.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Totally. Yeah. It's like, cool. Thank you. Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I, I don't know. I don't have much else for you. I'm loving I love hearing more about who you are. Yeah. We could have clinical talks sometime too.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I I think your brain is brilliant, But I, I hadn't I hadn't really gone there. I just think you you are very versatile. Like, you don't just know I'll tell you if we wanna go clinical a little bit. You you know how to load things. Like, that's something that I think a lot of clinicians still struggle with is they're good at the manual side.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And this is funny about what you said. Manual skills get you get people in the door for you. But the truth is lots of people can do manual skills, but they don't really know how to properly load.
Mike Stella:And then the other the opposite is true too. You got a lot of physios now, especially, like, in this evidence based movement. Manual therapy sucks. Manual therapy is bullshit. Who Who maybe are really great at progressing and regressing and lateralizing and program design.
Mike Stella:But they have no soft skills. They have no EQ. They have no ability to empathize. They have no ability to actually see the person in pain, like the person in pain and, like, do something about that or even, like, give a fuck. I'm sorry to curse.
Mike Stella:But, like, but, like, that's kinda like and that's what I say to the MVP physios. It's like, you you do realize you come off as an insensitive prick. Right? You do realize that there's something about, like, oh, you just gotta load it. It's like, well, that's not helpful to the person who's like, I'm struggling with this right now.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right. Here's the thing that they're they're actually, I'm glad you brought that up. The people who are just trying to, treat with, I wanna say brain perception. You know? Like, people who are trying to change it.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right. Thank you. Pain Science Education. They're the they're they're they're arguing with themselves. Like, they're saying that you can change patterns through just perception, through pain perception, or through But
Mike Stella:ignoring the fact that touch
Dr. JJ Thomas:is in perception. Exactly. Like, I'm like, they're literally using their own science to deny themselves the truth.
Mike Stella:Well, and not only that. It's like I also like, I got I got an I got an Instagram fucking debate slash fight with this one chiro who, I'm not gonna say his name, but he's like an evidence based chiro who just shits on all things manual therapy, and all you do all you need to do is regress people to whatever blah blah blah. And I'm like, you do realize you're making the argument for why people don't fucking need you. Right? You do realize that.
Mike Stella:You're making the argument. It's like, oh, it hurts to squat. Just squat with less weight and with less range of motion. It's like, wow. What an insight.
Mike Stella:What an insight. You don't think that person's maybe tried that? Come on.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Maybe tried that. And here's the other thing. Like, what bar are you setting for them Right. By the way? Like, are you just saying I want you to live in this 45 degree squat for the rest of your life because they still have to shit
Mike Stella:on their way? Well, I I think it's just you know what
Dr. JJ Thomas:it is? It's like,
Mike Stella:and this is maybe good advice from, like, even, like, a marketing perspective. But, like, we have to meet people where they're at, and we have to understand that
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:We have to understand that a lot of these modalities. Right? Needling, massage, cupping, these things have been around for 1000 of years. This is not, like, new. Like, maybe our understanding is evolving.
Mike Stella:And, like, that's partly what I'm doing with my new manual therapy course is just like, listen. These models work. They work differently than we thought they did 15, 20 years ago, and the narratives certainly need an update. But that doesn't make the model not good. It just means the narratives were wrong.
Mike Stella:We just didn't have the theories right, and we're refining those. It doesn't refute the whole practice. But and I and I make this argument. It's like Yeah. Well, listen.
Mike Stella:Cupping's been around since 5000 years ago in the Middle East. Okay? How when was the last time you saw a horse and buggy? When, you know, when was the last you know what
Dr. JJ Thomas:I mean?
Mike Stella:Like, when was the last time you chopped down a fucking tree for wood to heat your house? Those things are obsolete. Therefore, we don't do them anymore, but somehow these things have stood the test of time. Now, again, do we fully understand them? And that's why I hate, like, the whole idea of, like, oh, it's not evidence based.
Mike Stella:It's like based on what exactly? What evidence are you looking at? You're ignoring other evidence and all these things that show us correlations. They don't show us causation, and they don't show us there's no proof of anything either way. It's just trends.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right. And well, the other problem with that evidence based argument is even like, I don't know, but APTA has even said, the American Physical Therapy Association has even said, like, there's a difference between evidence informed and evidence based. Like, you can you can decide to follow a research, but but a true evidence informed clinician is gonna also use clinical patterning in there, which is which is exactly what you're saying. Like, we've seen clinical patterning as we've seen these things have worked for a lot for ever and ever. Why why would we try to refute it right now?
Mike Stella:Yeah. I get and, again, I think and and this is kinda what happens. Right? The pendulum always swings, and, you know, a lot of universities are putting a really high degree of emphasis on, you know, you know, new clinicians sticking to evidence. And and I do think that's important.
Mike Stella:And and that's partly what I'm doing with my content is, like, trying to give people an unbiased look at hey. Listen. Here's somebody here's somebody who took Graston 15 years ago and was beating the shit out of my athletes. And I don't do that anymore. Do I still treat with tools?
Mike Stella:Yeah. But I've evolved my practice as we've learned more. You don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to start to look and read between the lines and start to see and, like, ask better questions. You know?
Mike Stella:And then the research takes time to catch up to those things. Right? But so it's like
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's right. But but that's you just described political patterning. Like, you used to be that person that was bruising the shit out of people, and then maybe you realized that that it took them so many days to recover that you couldn't even actually do what you wanted to do.
Mike Stella:Were getting better or saying they felt felt better.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Right. But you refined it. You refined it because that's because that's the type of clinic
Mike Stella:you are. So that's what I'm trying to just help people do. And, again, I think there's a lot of massage therapists and chiropractors and manual based PTs that are, like, really feeling unseen and almost as if they're what they're doing is wrong, and it's not. Because there's this huge movement of you know? And it's it's almost like the all the exercise bros, the bullies, the the ones where gym bullies back in the day are now online social media influencers with evidence based this or evident e b that.
Mike Stella:And they're just out there trolling people and calling people out. You know? And, again, I that's what gets views and that's what gets likes and
Dr. JJ Thomas:I was just gonna say, unfortunately, I think that's that's part of the way you do, but you don't. Like, you're always very like, I think you, you know, you you tend to sometimes you'll say say something that's, you know, you're you're raising,
Mike Stella:but it's not like demonstrative for the sake of getting attention, but then trying to weave in some, like, hey. Here's the middle ground argument here. You know?
Dr. JJ Thomas:And there's a big difference between, in my opinion, between the way you approach that and the way some people do. I think some people to a fault will, like, do this and and and fall on their own sword, rather than do Yeah.
Mike Stella:I just feel like, you know, research information or research articles have somehow along the line become weaponized. Like, people have now weaponized research as if it's making and and, you know, and I'll and I've said this line for years, and I'll continue to say it. And people think like, oh, I have this research research article. Therefore, I'm right and you're wrong. It's like, no.
Mike Stella:You're you're missing the point of the research then, bro. The research doesn't make you right. It's there to make you less wrong. That's what it's there to do. Yeah.
Mike Stella:It doesn't make you right.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Also, it's it's meant to make you less wrong in that exact
Mike Stella:specific scenario. Small clinical. Exactly.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah. That exact clinical population and clinical scenario.
Mike Stella:Curve of probability or, you know, maybe we trend line towards more
Dr. JJ Thomas:one thing.
Mike Stella:But, again, it doesn't it certainly does one research article or one systematic review certainly doesn't, you know, give us all the answers, especially if you that's the thing. It's like people you got people out there who've never taken, like, a graduate level research methods course, so they don't really understand that, like, you know, how does a systematic review get done? It's like, okay. Well, people determine what the entry criteria is. So what does a over caffeinated, undernourished, highly stressed graduate student do?
Mike Stella:You raise the inclusion criteria so that you don't have to read 5,000 articles. So you only have to read 300 articles for that SR. So now your inclusion criteria is here, and you're disregarding a lot of evidence that might have methodological, like, validity to it. Right.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Value. Exactly. But, also, you're when you do that, you're also taking out a big population that that you might
Mike Stella:have referenced. People love to do is take a general population study and apply it to athletes or apply it to special populations. It's like that you can't do that. That doesn't really work.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You can't.
Mike Stella:I mean, maybe some of the concepts do, and that's fine. But it doesn't necessarily apply to everybody.
Dr. JJ Thomas:But that's the other piece. And that's exactly. So we can take that evidence based. Whatever that whatever you learn from that article. Right?
Dr. JJ Thomas:And you can, as you said, weave it in. Like, sure. You believe that evidence would you believe whatever evidence you just read? Great. Make that one small component of your base
Mike Stella:Or even just protocol.
Dr. JJ Thomas:You
Mike Stella:know? And and again, like, I made a post yesterday. It was like, hey. Listen. We gotta talk.
Mike Stella:There's a big difference between somebody who knows how to exercise and somebody who can coach other people. And one of the hallmarks of a really good coach is being able to take all of this data and all of this knowledge and all of this experience, and then look at the person in front of you and say, okay. What's their linchpin? What is the thing that they're struggling with the most that's the barrier for them making progress, whether it's a pain or injury problem, whether it's a fitness problem, a health problem. And
Dr. JJ Thomas:A metabolic problem.
Mike Stella:Right? Appropriate information and apply it to the appropriate person at the appropriate time in their journey. And you can't just and that's why one size fits all don't work. That's why the insurance model is broken. That's why it doesn't work.
Mike Stella:You know? Because people just can't can't just put them in a hopper of the standard procedure and expect the outside to be working for a 100% of people. And that's kinda what I think these EB bros just don't get is, like, it just you're talking about general situations, what generally is safe and generally works for lots of people with varying different starting points of health and fitness.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And in that model, you don't you can't cultivate the relationship to pull out that information out of your patients. I mean, that's the bottom line. How's okay. So how do people who wanna learn with you, what's the best way way for them? I'm gonna wrap it on that one, but I wanna make sure people yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So what's the best way? I mean, you have so many things. I want I want you to give me your top so I'm a clinician, and I listen to this podcast, and I'm like, JJ's right. This guy's a badass. I need to learn with him.
Dr. JJ Thomas:How do I how how do I
Mike Stella:So What
Dr. JJ Thomas:should I do? Should I go to your website?
Mike Stella:Website we just redid the website and made it very, very, very client facing. So the you're not gonna see a lot of my my business mentorship stuff there currently. But that's what my Instagram is for. The YouTube is for, and my podcast is all where you're gonna find all that cool clinical stuff. So the podcast, you can still find on the website.
Mike Stella:We could also just search for it on Spotify and Apple. And, like, because I redid my website now, I have to kind of figure that whole thing out, which is a whole another story. But Yeah. And, again, social media is really if you're a clinician, you wanna connect with me, you know, I have online courses that are already recorded. If you wanna start there, you can certainly take those courses.
Mike Stella:If you want to work with me directly, you can sign up for a mentorship call. You know? But that program is gonna get Cool. A serious, serious upgrade over the next 6 months. So, it's a little bit of a work experience.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So that's what I was looking for is a timeline on the mentorship.
Mike Stella:It's going currently. I'm still doing mentorship calls as if I've always done them, which are 1 on 1 Zoom calls. You know, I'll get granular with you on your business, your goals, what you're trying to do. You know? Whatever I can do to help you move forward in your career, your profession, your business.
Mike Stella:But we're gonna just start adding a lot more value to that. You know? Like, more curated business content that's specific to clinicians building businesses. And then I'm I'm gonna work on you know? So it'll be a lot more content regarding that stuff.
Mike Stella:And then I'll have new offerings that I release probably towards the end of the year.
Dr. JJ Thomas:And one more question on that. Will there be will there be groups or cohort? Like, I have cohorts with my mentorship program. Are you good planning to do
Mike Stella:any course or any of that sort? Planning to have, like, kind of, like, a 3 tiered option. Right? So if you just wanna take my courses, like or, like, you know, consume my content, right, that's the free entry level. Yeah.
Mike Stella:You know, you could buy the one off clinical business course that I'm gonna film in October, and that'll be probably, again, towards the end of the year, be available for purchase online as, like, a asynchronous learning. Like, you just take it whenever you want.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Yeah.
Mike Stella:And then if you wanna buy the course and get actual coaching from me in a more in a more, curated and and methodical structure format that also includes access to a community of other clinicians doing the same thing. That'll kind of be the top tier, which will be, like, the course plus, like, a monthly where I do, like, monthly Zoom calls with everybody and and really coach them on an ongoing basis. So I'm really excited for that.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Alright. So there you go, everybody listening. That was your free gift right there is that
Mike Stella:You heard it here first.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I had no you heard it here first. I had no idea. Mike Stella. I feel so lucky. Yeah.
Dr. JJ Thomas:That's awesome. That is that's gonna be great. So, yes, all of you clinicians listening, I know most of my audience I don't know if you know Mike. Most of my audiences are, geared towards clinicians who are trying to open their own cash based practices. So, this couldn't be more perfect for them.
Dr. JJ Thomas:So you guys, if you don't follow him already, you just put him in lockdown and get your little notification subscribe. Get your little you know? So when you're doing your boring emails, you get the Mike Stella put a vlog out, and you better jump jump on. Awesome. Let's go.
Dr. JJ Thomas:Alright. So, I'm gonna thank you for coming, wrap this up, and, you guys, let me know as always if there's any questions or anything else you have. Otherwise, follow our boy, Mike, and and we'll talk to you soon.
Mike Stella:Thank you, JJ. It was really nice to meet you. Thank you. Next time, we'll do one in person. We'll make that happen.
Mike Stella:Alright. Let's do it.
Dr. JJ Thomas:I'm coming.