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The Be The Church Podcast is for spiritual leaders who want to be challenged to lead like Jesus in everyday places—at home, in your church, at school, and in the workplace. Hosted by Be The Church founder Joel Wayne and Chapel Pointe pastor Luke Bilberry, each episode features bold, authentic conversations with business and ministry leaders that are rooted in Scripture. You'll learn how to expand your spiritual influence and leverage your leadership to advance the Kingdom of God. Let's be the church together! For more information, visit bethechurch.org/podcast.
The more technical you are, the greater the risk you run-in being fascinated by the technology and missing the point. So often we get impatient and we just wanna build the thing. And maybe maybe now's the time, but don't rush it and don't do it in your own power. Don't do it in your own way. What are you doing, Moses?
Jon VerLee:Like, you can't murder someone. But if you actually look at what is driving his behavior, it is this desire to rescue his people. Mhmm. But Moses did it on his own timing, in his own way. It's Moses' plan and Moses' timing.
Jon VerLee:God says no, kicks him out to Midian for forty years. Forty years, he comes back later, and God says, alright. My plan, my timing, Moses. And then we have the Exodus story of the whole group being led out.
Luke Bilberry:Hey. Thanks for joining the Be The Church podcast, a podcast designed to help you leverage your spiritual leadership to advance the kingdom of God. Today's conversation is a lot of fun with John VerLee, an entrepreneur, amazing husband and father, and someone who develops culture everywhere he goes. This conversation is gonna help you lead with intentionality around technology and AI. Let's jump into the conversation right now.
Luke Bilberry:Well, John VerLee, it's it's really fun to have you joining us here at the Be The Church podcast. You are an entrepreneur. You are a dad. You are a husband. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your story, however far back you wanna go, how you encountered Jesus, and maybe all you've had some different experiences from ministry to business and everything in between.
Luke Bilberry:Give us a rundown of the John VerLee story.
Jon VerLee:Sure. Let me start high level and kinda where I have come from and how God has used that to make me who I am today. Let's start back in high school. Grew up, on the shores of Michigan, Holland, Michigan. And to be honest, high school was a little bit of a train wreck for me, specifically the first half.
Jon VerLee:And I won't get into all the gory details, but the long and short of it is that following Jesus was not top priority. My life took a fairly dark path and it was right in the middle of that where I'm driving, actually riding with a buddy, we're both 16, why we let 16 year olds have licenses, I don't know. In Michigan winters. In Michigan winters. And you're exactly right, it's the dead of winter, February.
Jon VerLee:And we're driving like 16 year olds do, run a red light way too fast, car turns out, hit them. And I end up in the hospital for almost a week with a severed spleen. And it was this moment where had things gone a little bit differently, it'd be very easy for me to not be here today. But it was also this moment where in that season, it was a bit of a wake up call where God was saying, listen, you're living your life for no bigger purpose other than yourself right And I have something so much better for you. And it was as if this moment started a turn in my life where it wasn't so much as God found me as I stopped running from him.
Jon VerLee:And all of a sudden the words on Sunday morning from a preacher that I was listening to at the time started coming alive. And I started leaning into this and saying, God, you have a life for me that's so much bigger than the way that I've been living. And so it was with this perspective that I then stepped into my university years where relatively quickly in my freshman year, two things happened. Number one, our resident director, the person in charge the dorm I was living in, her name's Brie. And Brie, she came up to me, she said, John, you've got a special gift.
Jon VerLee:And for this coming summer, I think you should consider being a camp counselor up at Spring Hill, which is a large Christian camp in Northern Michigan. And I hadn't really thought about that before. I said, really? And we talked a little more and interviewed and they said, yeah, yeah, why don't you come up this coming summer? The second thing that happened is that I was hanging out over on the girls wing of our dorm because I was a freshman guy and that felt like a thing that I should do.
Luke Bilberry:It feels like a good place to
Jon VerLee:hang out. And there were a couple cute girls who said, Hey, you should go check out this church that we've been going to, and you actually would be really good with the students over there. You should check out volunteering there. And so I took a look at the church, attended there, called them, said, Hey, I'd love to volunteer in the youth ministry of middle school, something like that. And they said something that no youth pastor should ever say.
Jon VerLee:They said, actually, we're all set. We don't have any needs. Like, really? Wow. Who says that?
Jon VerLee:Who says that? No. I I didn't have all that context. I I just said, okay. Kinda disorientedly.
Jon VerLee:Four minutes later, my phone rings. I pick it up. I I I think the holy spirit had talked to them in those four minutes because they said, actually, we do have a need. Would you like to come on over this Wednesday? So both this experience with Brie and this experience talking originally to these cute girls, but then eventually to, to the church culminated in me spending three of my four summers during university, serving as a camp counselor and then becoming a small group leader for a bunch of squirrelly middle school boys.
Luke Bilberry:So I wanna I wanna pause the story there because I'm curious of of those moments. What did you learn about being a follower of Jesus and leading in a camp ministry and in a student ministry? And in particular, you're talking about squirrelly middle schoolers. What are some things that that God taught you that as you look back on those years that were form formative, foundational for you? What would you say about that?
Jon VerLee:I think the first thing to point out is what predisposed me to that route. Right? That car accident was only a couple of years prior. Mhmm. And I look back on what my life looked like prior to that and how insecure I was and how lost I was.
Jon VerLee:And I after after realizing who Jesus truly was and what following him meant, I couldn't do anything other than say, how do I reach back to current middle school and high school students who have that same level of disorientation that I did during those years and help point them towards the truth? And so that is a foundational direction of my life that continues to even now.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Knowing a little bit of your story and prior where you're gonna talk about a few things, that idea of paying it forward seems to be a theme that that I didn't know about in hearing it now. Like, I've received this grace and I'm gonna do everything I can to continue to pay it pay it back and open up doors of opportunity for people to encounter love, grace, their identity in Jesus Christ. It's just cool to hear some of those connector points.
Jon VerLee:And you see it all through scripture too, Like you see Paul who formerly was persecuting Christians, he realizes who Jesus is in his road to Damascus experience and everything changes and he's now reaching out and trying to help other lost people follow Christ. And so very much so God using a dark season of life for his purposes later on.
Luke Bilberry:And well, one, well, thanks for for being obedient to the Lord after that encounter and continue to do that for those that would come after you that you would get a chance to lead. And so keep us walking forward. So you're in college, you're doing camp ministry, you're volunteering in youth ministries, but then eventually you graduate. Where does it go from there?
Jon VerLee:Eventually I graduate and I'm not really sure what I wanna do other than I love student ministry. And so being around so many people in the church, many of them who have attended seminary, I thought that seems like the next rational step to do. And so I stepped into a local seminary. Seminaries often have two main tracks. This is oversimplifying, but two main tracks.
Jon VerLee:One of those is your kind of theology degree, like a master's of divinity, master's of theology, something in that vein. And then the other tends to be this master's in counseling to go be a counselor, whether that be couples counseling or anxiety or what have you. And through those youth ministry years, I had really enjoyed conversations with students and being able to connect and help them through whatever challenges they were struggling with. And so the counseling track made a lot of sense to me. And so stepped into seminary and also stepped into then at that point, part time staff at that same church.
Luke Bilberry:Oh, very cool.
Jon VerLee:And so journeyed on in this parallel track and, it was wonderful. And about two years in, is when, the girl I was dating, amazing girl, who is now my wife, about two years in, I proposed to Carrie. And of course she said, Yes. And I was doing the math on when we could get married. And she had about nine months of school left, and then she'd moved back to West Michigan, which is where I was.
Jon VerLee:She was on the other side of the state. I realized, Luke, I realized that if I actually quit my job, I could get married four months earlier, and I could do my internships for my, for my seminary degree out in the other side of the state, Ann Arbor. And so as a very mature 22 year old, I said, seems like a great deal. I'm out of here. So I quit, moved to the other I got married, moved to the other side of the state and we started our life together.
Jon VerLee:And four months later, we moved back to West Michigan. Knocked on the door of the church. Hey, I'm back. Will you hire me back? And, you know, with a little bit more life and career experience, I realized that at least from a career perspective, that may not have been the wisest, most prudent route.
Jon VerLee:But, man, we got married early. There you go. And I absolutely adore my wife, and I'm not sure I would have done it any differently.
Luke Bilberry:You know, it's just it's life. Everybody's got those weird, you know, moments in the story, and that's just part of it. But that's God's writing a story. Right?
Jon VerLee:He sure is.
Luke Bilberry:In real life.
Jon VerLee:And and even more, I would say, when I was out in Ann Arbor, I discovered something very, actually detrimental to the track I thought I was on. I was in my internships at that point and these are counseling internships. And so I'm sitting with a counselor, watching them interact with their client, doing some of the work myself. And Luke, I realized I don't actually wanna be a counselor. This is six and a half years into my higher education journey.
Jon VerLee:The very end of it, like the finish line is right there. I'm like, I don't wanna do this. And the observation, I have a high respect for counseling. It is critical. We need it in our society.
Jon VerLee:But for me, I much preferred the embedded relational dynamic that a student ministry provides. You go to camp with a bunch of middle schoolers. There's a boy who's like, Hey, can we chat? And you've known him for, right, a couple of years. And you start walking around the property and he's talking about, Hey, I'm struggling with this anxiety or my parents are doing this or pornography or whatever it might be.
Jon VerLee:And being able to check-in and have accountability and journey with him. The transactional counseling relationship while important is a little bit different and it didn't strike the same chord for me. And so what ended up happening is I'm in Ann Arbor with all of this creative energy and not a satisfying outlet for it. And meanwhile, my wife, Carrie, is finishing up her degree, which included working in a lab with cholera. And so she's literally in the lab at different points that are not at all related to a nine to five schedule.
Jon VerLee:It's rather the half life of bacteria. And when devices are spitting down, right? Like she's brilliant. I married a smart one. That's awesome.
Jon VerLee:But what that meant is I'm just sitting alone with this creative energy. And so I leaned into a skill set that had started back in the middle school years and progressed into high school and that is my deep love for technology. And so actually when we moved back to West Michigan, I came with two passions, one for the local church, but the other deep tech, a deep appreciation for technology, which I had started as a business on the side doing programming work for companies that needed some extra help. So I came back, took a full time job now, at the same church. They let me back in.
Jon VerLee:Thank you.
Luke Bilberry:He was very kind
Jon VerLee:of him. That's awesome. And then was moonlighting as a freelance, developer on the side.
Luke Bilberry:That's awesome. Well, it's an interesting thing when it probably feels like those things couldn't be really closely related. Ministry is all about people and stories that shepherding that teaching. You know, you talked about the seminary tracts. There's kind of like the teaching knowledge, learning the histories, you know, the Greek and the Hebrew languages, and there's this care, the shepherding aspect of seminary and pastoral ministry work that's really focused on on people, but then technologies, that's ones and zeros, right?
Luke Bilberry:That that's trying to code and all these different aspects. Those things almost seem opposite in the way that they would move and create things for. How did you find that that overlap? What did that overlap of ministry and technology? When did you begin to see like those things come together?
Jon VerLee:Well, for a while they didn't and it was incredibly cathartic for me. Here's what I mean. Would go to my day job and all day it's relationships, right? I'm talking to people and you can give people advice and say, Hey, I suggest you should do this or consider this or go read this.
Luke Bilberry:Here's what the Bible says and
Jon VerLee:walk through that. And maybe they'll listen to you or maybe not. But then I got to go home and I got to open up the laptop and start programming. And the computer will do what you tell it to do every single time, every time. And so you don't have to worry about it kinda creating its own course or what it's going to do.
Jon VerLee:Sometimes I'd write the wrong thing and then it, know, introducing a but it always does what it's supposed to do. And so it was this kind of balancing out for me where the technology side was cathartic at the end of the day. That said, as these parallel tracks move forward, ministry and freelance development programming, eventually they did combine. And it was specifically on a Tuesday morning as a student ministry team, we would circle up and picture a number of us, a dozen, and we would debrief the weekend and what went well and what didn't. And all of a sudden, week after week, the topic of focus was the database system of the church and people's frustration with it.
Jon VerLee:And I'll spare the nerdy details here, but essentially it wasn't working great for the church. And we were a big church, right? Like eighty, ninety staff, we could specialize. Even with that, the church was struggling. And it led me to think if a church of this size is struggling to use technology well, man, most of the churches out there, they have a staff of like five or six.
Jon VerLee:They don't have a database person or an IT specialist, right? And so do they have software that they can use well? And if we don't, they're probably struggling too. And so I started diverting some of those nights and weekend hours that I previously was working for other companies to building out a product of my own, geared to serve the small and mid sized church. And as that moved forward, man, I felt like God bless that thing.
Jon VerLee:And it started taking off and churches started signing up from around the first Michigan and then around the country and then around the world. And that eventually then led into the next chapter of life where as much as I loved student ministry, God was calling me to another opportunity with serving the church from the technology front. And we were able to serve thousands of churches around the world with this software that I then stepped into as CEO of that company and hired an incredible team and I'm thrilled at the impact God's allowed us all to have.
Luke Bilberry:So it's, it goes from being this cathartic moment of, hey, I'm gonna make sure the computer does whatever I want. This is on my terms. And people, you know, ministry can be messy dealing relationships that I mean, it is a joy and an honor, but also can be hard. And so it comes this place where these are different things, but then all of a sudden, technology and a database is all about caring for people, looking after them, having the right information so that you can effectively steward these relationships. Would that be a good summary maybe of kind of where those moments intersected?
Jon VerLee:Absolutely, yeah. There is no replacing actual true interpersonal relationships, but the way that we can bring people together and connect people and facilitate that whole process, technology can very much help with.
Luke Bilberry:So I'm I'm curious, John, what would you say to to the person and again, we're here with this podcast trying to help people leverage their spiritual influence. You've got a day job and you've got passions. Yeah. How how should I steward those passions or those interests that may just seem unique or quirky or personal and even though I've got time and energy going into this other thing, what would you say? How how should I think about those?
Luke Bilberry:Is that just my hobby and just leave it in that zone and just let me do my job? Because at the end of the day, we're we're stewards of the gifts, the talents, the abilities. Every moment of our day is a moment to steward for the glory of God. How would you encourage anyone that says, really enjoy this thing. Is this something I should pursue or just leave it in its hobby space?
Luke Bilberry:If that makes sense.
Jon VerLee:I wanna zoom in on a moment that I glossed over in this timeline, but that is really significant to that question. So working full time at the church and doing freelance development prior to starting a software of my own a significant season of life for me. I did this for a couple of years and when one of the years wrapped up, Carrie and I were looking at our finances at the end of the year and we looked at how much I made from the church And then we looked at how much I made from the freelance work that I did. And I made with the freelance work $1,000 more than what I did from the church during that year. And there was something that shifted in me in that moment where I saw the technology work as no longer a hobby, but as the potential for being a career.
Luke Bilberry:There's some plausibility here.
Jon VerLee:There's some plausibility here. And it took seeing those numbers to actually shift something in my mind. But here's where the story gets interesting. I prayed about this not long enough and then went to my then boss whose name was Brady. And I said, Hey Brady, on Friday, can we have lunch?
Jon VerLee:I have something I'd love to share with you. Which if you're a boss, beware of the Friday lunch conversation, right? Like that doesn't always bode well.
Luke Bilberry:There's a curve ball coming Brady
Jon VerLee:had any of those premonitions. They were well founded because over pizza on the East Side Of Grand Rapids, shared, you know, the technology work I'm doing is going well and it's February. I don't wanna change anything right now, but at the end of the school year, I would love to step out, quit my job here and then go and pursue technology full time. And Brady was a phenomenal mentor and boss. And while he was sad to hear the news, he certainly understood and was supportive.
Jon VerLee:And so at that point, I told my immediate team, but nobody else. A couple of months later, we're sitting about early April and it was a Monday and it was the day I was scheduled to email out all of the families of the students that I oversaw, letting them know about me transitioning out and that there would be somebody else coming in that we hadn't even hired yet. And I woke up that morning and Luke, there was such a deep lack of peace in my soul. Like, what is that? And I'm like, okay, I'll shoot the email out in a couple hours.
Jon VerLee:Well, a couple hours came. I said, no, I'm not emailing it now. How about a couple more? Get to the end of the day, I pick up my wife from work. She gets in the car and looks at my face and first words out of her mouth, What is wrong?
Jon VerLee:Wow. I'm like, Nothing feels right about this. And so next day comes Tuesday, I called Brady. I say, can we chat again? And so we get together and say, to be honest, I feel such a lack of peace.
Jon VerLee:Can I quit? And so, you know, at this point, like, I've left to go get married four months early. I've come back. I've quit. Now I've quit.
Jon VerLee:Like, they are so gracious with me. I don't deserve half of anything I have. But, Brady says, absolutely, we'd we'd love to keep you. And then it was a couple of years later where I'm sitting in the Tuesday morning conversation and the database conversation comes up that then, moves forward into a much bigger venture than I could have ever imagined. But here's what's interesting about this.
Jon VerLee:Around the same time that I quit, I part of a leadership study for some people around the church that our executive pastor was hosting. And we were looking at the early life of Moses. And we're sitting around this table talking about what is Moses's kind of built in God given desire. And Moses of course is a Hebrew and sees himself as a Hebrew, but he grows up under the shadow of the palace and He's in a different culture. He's in a different culture, but he sees his own people enslaved all around him.
Jon VerLee:And early in his life, he looks out and he sees the Egyptian beating the Hebrew. And those of you who know your Bibles, you know, like, what does he do? He goes out, he kills the Egyptian, buries him in the sand, and rescues the Hebrew essentially from that beating. And if you zoom in on that moment, so often we look at that and be like, What are you doing, Moses? Like, No.
Jon VerLee:You can't murder someone. But if you actually look at what is driving his behavior, it is this desire to rescue his people. And of course, if you zoom out, you see that is a God given desire that God will use in mighty ways. But Moses did it on his own timing in his own way. It was Moses' plan and Moses' timing.
Jon VerLee:God says no, kicks him out to Midian for forty years. Forty years, he comes back later and God says, alright, my plan, my timing, Moses. Wow. And and then we have the exodus story of the whole group being let out.
Luke Bilberry:To be be clear. Incredible thought that I appreciate you bringing that that in our own strength, he rescued one, but in God's time and in God's plan, he rescues the whole nation.
Jon VerLee:His plan is so much bigger than ours.
Luke Bilberry:And the impact for us as spiritual leaders, we're doing it of our own accord, it may yield a result. But if we're actually walking with the Lord that that yield just I just wanna say thanks because that it's a really powerful thought when you look at the entirety of the scripture in that story. And so I just wanted to reiterate that for everyone that's listening that that's in your own strength, it may yield something small, but in God's work and in his power, who knows the ripple effects of the life and the thing He's placed inside your heart that it could have for the kingdom and for the world.
Jon VerLee:And the trait that I think is most important in this is patience and listening as well. Right? For me, it was a lack of patience and a lack of listening that led me to say, let's go right now. And I'm grateful for the Holy Spirit sending up the flares on that Monday to say, listen, you don't wanna do this because there was something so much better in the future had I waited. I work with a lot of founders, a lot of people who have ideas of, hey, I could build this.
Jon VerLee:What about this? And one of the steady bits of feedback that I give them is God's plan and God's timing. Trust God's plan. So often we get impatient and we just wanna build the thing. And maybe, maybe now's the time, but don't rush it and don't do it in your own power.
Jon VerLee:Don't do it in your own way. Lean into where God is leading you on that path.
Luke Bilberry:Thanks for that. I think that just, if we stop the podcast here, that that would be enough. Just what you just said for anyone, whatever God has placed in your life, how your story can move you into these, into next and how are you thinking about others and its impact and just that last little bit of and if you're patient and you're listening, my God wants to use every part of your life. But your your life continued and your story has has grown and maybe maybe we should begin to move into this intersection of technology and ministry. And I just would love for you, John VerLee, to kind of challenge us maybe a little bit as we think about technology and the use of ministry.
Luke Bilberry:I'd love for you to maybe begin to have some conversations with us around AI. You know, so many of us we can barely begin to fully understand what's really happening and how to utilize these tools and begin to kind of guide us. And I just wanna learn from you in this moment as you're having conversations, as you're thinking creatively, and how do we make sure that we as spiritual leaders are leveraging every bit of opportunity to make sure that Jesus is made known because that's what I believe at the end of the day. That's what we're here for is to make Jesus known, to make disciples. And from the first time the Bible was printed, you know, I think about the Gutenberg Bible, man, it rapid fire.
Luke Bilberry:People came to know who God is. I think about the Bible translation work that's happening and its ability to be put in the hands of people now because technology is increasing. And when we encounter God, our lives are changed just like yours was back when you were 16, that moment, just like yours was when you didn't feel that peace and so you waited. But I'd love for us I'm gonna let you kind of begin to guide this moment. I wanna ask questions and learn from you.
Luke Bilberry:And if there's anything that you think is in particular for for us, man, let's just let's begin to explore some of those conversations at technology ministry and what what do you see that we need to make sure we're doing now, and what do we need to be asking questions thoughtfully about for the future?
Jon VerLee:Let's start high level on technology and then work our way into the AI hot button issue that it is today. Eleven months ago, I'm sitting in a seminar room listening to a speaker. Speaker was Bill McKendree, is the founder of a company named Brand Haven. Brand Haven is responsible for the Super Bowl commercials he gets us, for those of you who have seen that. And he is a strong believer and also passionate about integrating his Christian belief into the media work that he does.
Jon VerLee:Bill's in front of the room and he says, Look, the first century was the ideal place for the message of Jesus to spread, primarily because of the roads the Romans had built. Never before could you get so far, so quickly because of the infrastructure that was laid down. And if you fast forward to the twenty first century, technology and media are the equivalent of the Roman roads. They are the way that messages spread faster than anything else. And so as Christians, we would be absolutely foolish to not use those channels in the same way that Paul and the other early disciples would be silly to walk along the rugged terrain or not take a road at all compared to taking the highways of their day.
Jon VerLee:And so we have to leverage technology. How we do that is a fascinating question. I've seen a lot of different models. My own company for instance, was designed to magnify the impact of the church, right? Take the operations they're doing and help them go faster.
Jon VerLee:But I think there's some other angles as well. This one's a little out there, but a few months ago I worked with an incredible team to help start a reality TV show that has this implicit gospel message behind some of the competitions and games, some sacrificial elements as a way to perhaps push a gospel theme to a group of watchers that otherwise would never darken the door of a church. And so you have some more implicit methodologies there. Two days ago, I sat down and had the chance to interview a friend of mine named Dan Hungerford, who has a much more explicit, way of doing this. Dan is an AI optimist and a technology founder, and he's among other things recently launched a digital witness, platform, which is an AI.
Jon VerLee:Think of it as think
Luke Bilberry:of
Jon VerLee:it as a Zoom call with an AI, including the AI having a face and can see you, can read your emotions and has emotions of their own. And the idea behind digital witness is to be able to, have a an AI avatar interact with people and lead them to Jesus. And so Dan is kind of pushing the edges of both technology and certainly people's comfort zones. Won't pretend that that's not a controversial space, but I think we need to be exploring areas like this. If we had not explored the edges of technology in the past, we'd still be, you mentioned Gutenberg, we'd still be handwriting our Bibles, right?
Jon VerLee:Of course that would not be helpful for the spread of the gospel message. And outside of the kind of Christian sphere here, there's countless examples of innovations that started, with people feeling a little bit eerie about them, right? Like take Uber, I'm gonna ride in the back of somebody's Stranger's car. Car, right? Take Airbnb, I'm gonna sleep at a stranger's house.
Jon VerLee:Yet these are now commonplace and accepted. And so And almost preferred now. And almost preferred. And so I said earlier that I think nothing can replace true human interaction and I stand by that, but at the same time, to what degree can AI help bring someone to Jesus in its own right through whether it's a written conversation or what feels exactly like a Zoom call that you or I might have today?
Luke Bilberry:Well, I mean, just even those two examples of using, you know, a TV show on YouTube. And tell us what is what is the show? Wow.
Jon VerLee:Okay. Show is top of the class.
Luke Bilberry:Top of the class.
Jon VerLee:Okay. You can go check it out on YouTube if you want to. Like and subscribe. You know the deal. So
Luke Bilberry:There you go. I love it. The yeah. Because you're you're creating this moment, which is that's a fairly common method. We're gonna create a YouTube.
Luke Bilberry:We're gonna share these stories. We're gonna, you know, film these things, and that's commonplace. So many of us are consuming content. This content right now put out on YouTube as well that people can watch and engage with that. And then the flip side of that is this whole feels like, you know, unknown territory of what's real and true, even though they're communicating the truth of the gospel, the digital witness and all that goes in around that.
Luke Bilberry:What would you say that you have learned in engaging in these new technology spheres? Is there anything that you would say, man, this man, I know we need to make sure we're engaging with as believers. Is there anything that you should say, hey, here's the here's the pitfalls or the questions that you need to walk yourself through so that you are mindful of what you're doing. I think about Paul had this desire to go to Spain and, you know, the Lord prevented him from going to that point, but he saw the possibility. He saw the opportunity that was there.
Luke Bilberry:You saw the opportunity that was in the technology sphere, but there's also kind of this moment of hold, this moment of wait for that. How would you encourage us? How would you caution us?
Jon VerLee:There's a million perspectives on this. I will start by simply saying technology at its core is deeply neutral. Every tech can be used for good or for bad. What that means though, is that as Christians, if we steer clear of technology, it will be in the hands of those who are not using it for gospel oriented purposes. And so let's take this tool, this neutral thing and leverage it for the kingdom.
Jon VerLee:We can't afford to not have a voice in this space. Now there are many different perspectives here, but I believe there's something so special about true in-depth communication one on one or in small group settings that we have a danger if we start to push that out of our lives. Right? You look at social media and so many people look at social media as this chance to connect with others. But if you truly start digging and asking people how they really feel, they'll admit that, oh, it creates envy, it creates loneliness, it creates fear of missing out.
Jon VerLee:It's not actually connecting people. It's rather just, you know, the comparison tool at scale. And my fear is that if we view technology like this digital witness platform as the end all be all, that we'll be missing something. We can't spend our lives behind screens. And to my friend Dan's credit who's developing this, he would say the same thing.
Jon VerLee:He would say, These are tools that should be pushing people toward community.
Luke Bilberry:There's a step after this initial encounter. Right?
Jon VerLee:That's exactly It
Luke Bilberry:reminds me, believe, the the person who's lived in the nineteen fifties, you know, the marketing philosophy, you know, that, you know, the the medium becomes the message sometimes. And that's what I'm hearing you say is that the technology medium is neutral. We need to make sure the message stays true and they don't get flipped. Like social media says, oh, hey, here's the message's connection, but it's really not. The medium is advertisement, marketing, and it creates these unique ripples.
Luke Bilberry:How can I make sure I'm not getting lost in the medium that the message of community, of engagement, of what matters at the end of the day, hearts, minds, souls, this moment we're having here that's real in person? How do I make sure I don't get lost in the medium and in all of the there's so much too. Like, how do I make sure I don't get lost, John?
Jon VerLee:I think first is having the clarity of what you just said. Right? Social media is not social. Social media is isolating. And there's a place for it, but don't confuse that with genuine community.
Jon VerLee:Don't confuse talking to an AI as having a real conversation or having an impact on somebody's life. Sure, use it for edification, refining your own ideas, but it is only the method for then being able to pivot and go out in the world. In some ways that gives us a perspective where AI is not a fundamentally different category than any other technology that comes along. We need boundaries around it for ourselves. We need to recognize its place in our lives and we need to say no to it plenty.
Jon VerLee:We need to structure our lives around other people. And we can't lose our humanity to a bunch of screens.
Luke Bilberry:When I look at John VerLee's life and I've got to know you a little bit, you have this way of creating culture wherever you go. I think back to a couple years ago, you invited a group of guys from all over your your connection from business world, church world, friendships, and neighborhoods. You invited us to play a game of broomball. I'm probably still recovering from some of those bruises and that broomball game falling on the ice. But you go and you create culture wherever you go.
Luke Bilberry:And I see and I hear in you with this deep love for technology, but you're creating moments, whether it's with the YouTube TV show, you're creating moments with real people for a real moment to help them in their process. The work that you do with the Startup Garage. Talk to me a little bit about how you create culture, again, as a way to get after the real thing, the the interpersonal, to get after the hearts and souls that God created and the those he died to redeem. What's it look like for John VerLee to create culture? Are you just a fun party waiting to happen, or is there intentionality?
Luke Bilberry:What does that look like for you?
Jon VerLee:I think the true answer is I forgot to stop being a youth pastor ever. And I say that with a little bit of trepidation because I actually think this is up for everybody regardless of personality type, regardless of what your career has been in the past, right? Anybody who has been put in charge of caring for other people, be that dad, be that a mom, be that a manager, be that a CEO, be that a volunteer overseeing other volunteers, right? Whenever you have a chance to oversee others and care for others, you now have a responsibility, a duty to craft what that culture looks like. And it's an incredible honor.
Jon VerLee:Running the software company that I ran, our team eventually was just under 50 of us. And I look at this group and I very much felt the weight, but also the excitement of being able to create culture. Luka, one of my favorite memories from that is we would go on, retreats, annual retreats, and we'd rent some big house with a bunch of bedrooms for everybody and have have a great time. But we would play this game called assassins where everybody gets a little Nerf gun, in their pocket and then gets a name that is for us that is somebody else on the property. And your goal is to shoot them with your Nerf gun and then you get their name, you know, who they were assigned to, and then that's your new target.
Jon VerLee:And it eventually culminates with one person being the last one standing. And so we have these retreats and people are literally running down the hallway, hiding behind doors, popping out. It was so much fun. And I think oftentimes we forget to be kids and we pretend like we have to be rigid or overly professional. And as somebody who cares for others, you get to set what that culture looks like.
Jon VerLee:I don't care if you're higher up, if you have a higher up in a corporate setting, if if they don't share that same culture, you get to craft what that looks like for your immediate community and you can lead up to a degree as well. And so I think one of the principles I've embraced is really shedding that self conscious feeling or that question of what are they going to think? And instead just thinking, what will people enjoy here? What creates fun? What creates culture?
Jon VerLee:You mentioned broomball. Fantastic. Yeah. I had my big birthday a few months ago, my fortieth birthday.
Luke Bilberry:Oh, welcome to the club.
Jon VerLee:Thank you. Thank you. And what did I do for it? I rented out this. It's called Battle GR free promo.
Jon VerLee:It's this almost like arcade slash Craig's Cruiser's place up on the North Side Of Grand And brought in like 40 people. We played laser tag. We played archery tag, which is where you shoot people with bows and arrows. No sharp points. Played cornhole.
Jon VerLee:It was awesome. But I think many people are hesitant to lean into activities like that because they'll be seen as childish when in reality, it's a good portion of the population that just can't wait to go do that.
Luke Bilberry:Right. And it's like we need someone to give us permission to create a moment. Right? And and it could be as, you know, silly as archery tag or broom ball or it could be that that moment of a smile and a conversation.
Jon VerLee:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:And that's where you you take the technology, you put it down, and realize that across from you is is someone that God created in his image and someone that God dearly loves. And if I can create a moment for you, then that opens your heart, opens your mind to receive what God may have for you that next step, you know. I just I just wanna say one, thanks for being someone who creates culture that hopefully, as people hear this, they're they're challenged to go, oh, what could I do? What how what's something fun? What's something just silly that that could spark a moment for a conversation and it gets us to that next step.
Luke Bilberry:And like you said, technology gets us to that next step of community of being involved in a ministry or a church or whatever that looks like. What would you say, John, again, you you're in so many different spheres. Challenge us a little bit on taking that next step as a leader, whether it's in in those different arenas that you were talking about, whether I'm leading a business, I'm working in a business, I'm just a friend in a group of people. What does it mean for you to to lead, to serve? Some real practical things you're talking about creating those cultures.
Jon VerLee:Yeah. On a culture level, oftentimes those are broader group events that brings everybody in, but what does it look like to truly be a spiritual leader? That is part of it. But I think people are often stuck thinking, Oh, how do I talk about the church service that I was in a couple of days ago on this Monday or Tuesday morning? And that's not a bad thought, but sometimes it can feel a little bit forced and people end up feeling like, oh, was that the right interaction?
Jon VerLee:Was it not? I find one of the most powerful ways of truly connecting and leading that is to find one person who you look at and say, this person could use a little bit of extra mentorship or a little bit of guidance. And I'm thinking specifically a work context here, but it wouldn't need to be, it can be a community, someone at the gym, you're rubbing shoulders with. And to say, Hey, would you be open to grabbing coffee? I'd love to hear like how work is going for you lately and just to get to know you a little bit better, right?
Jon VerLee:It's the initiative of taking that first step to get to know somebody that I think we really struggle with. Also the initiative to set up larger events like brimball or whatever your own personality like manifest that into, right? It's the initiative of the first step. And so you sit down and you have coffee with somebody and you get to know them and you learn what's going on in their life. Oh, you realize one of their kids is sick or struggling in some way.
Jon VerLee:Realize, oh, they're just got married for the second time and they're blending families and things are kind of awkward. And you actually get to understand and know the person. And in my experience, the groundwork that that lays then to be able to truly help them follow Jesus well in their life, whether that is coming to Jesus or simply being an additional support on their already active journey goes a lot further than trying to figure out how to use Jesus y words in the right way at the water cooler.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Just that presence, that active listening and responding as as they speak or as you hear and as the Holy Spirit prompts you, that's that's what I'm hearing you say, man. That that first step and then everything after that, we're we're kind of in the music world, we're playing jazz after that. Yeah. Like, it's not fully structured.
Jon VerLee:Well, it's a relationship, right? Like it's not a marketing campaign. It's a genuine relationship. Going back to that point, we can't get away from how central those are how central relationships are. Scripture is filled with people truly walking alongside other people and getting to know them and doing life in that way.
Luke Bilberry:Well, I've got I've got a few other questions for us, John, but I wanted to I have an idea. You you you work in this entrepreneurial space, encouraging folks, consulting with other people and other businesses. I have an idea. I'm scared to take that first step. What's that look like as you're navigating your con having conversation with folks?
Luke Bilberry:Help me pull that idea to take that step because who knows how God may wanna use that idea that I just can't shake, but I'm afraid to say it out loud or I'm not willing to do or take that step outside.
Jon VerLee:So many thoughts. So many thoughts. Alright. Here's the here's the first one. A lot of people, they have this idea.
Jon VerLee:They think it's going to be great, but they're scared to tell anybody about it for two reasons. Number one, they're scared people will think it's dumb. And number two, they're scared somebody's going to steal it. Let me let me tell you. Start talking about it to every single stinking person you know, because here's why.
Jon VerLee:If it's a dumb idea, you should know it's a dumb idea as quickly as possible. They need to move on with their life to a not dumb idea. Tell people about it. Get their reactions. And number two, almost never is a business foiled because the idea gets out too early.
Jon VerLee:It's foiled because it's executed poorly. And so what you gain by telling people about your business idea, it's the feedback that you get goes so far and above, any risk that you take. So people who know me know this about me when, you know, if it's a dinner having with someone or a social get together, it's not uncommon for me to say, Hey, I've got this idea. Let me know what you think. And I pitch them the latest idea, right?
Jon VerLee:Like the top of the class show that we talked about a moment ago lived in this camp for a while.
Luke Bilberry:Okay.
Jon VerLee:I pitched them on the idea and I watched their reaction and I watched if they're leaning in and they're like, this is fantastic. Or if they're looking at me like, I'm not sure if you had a bad burrito for lunch, but this isn't making sense. That's crazy, yeah. And that feedback is fantastic. And typically what it is, is they're excited on some level, but they have some questions.
Jon VerLee:And the questions help me know where I need to refine this idea and where I need to tweak it. And the next conversation I have, I tweak it a little bit differently and then a little different and then a little different so that by conversation nine or 10, I've got this crystal clear vision of what it is I want to do. And if it's a good idea, the recipient I'm telling is leaning in saying, makes sense, awesome. When are you gonna do this thing? And I know I've got a good idea, right now I'm working on a project and I have multiple people asking me, when's it gonna come out?
Jon VerLee:When's it gonna be ready? That's when I know, okay, I've got something. And so you can all do all of that with no money and just a little bit of courage to take that step and share it.
Luke Bilberry:That's cool. I I mean, that's in my mind, in real time, I'm like, well, there's this crazy idea, and I definitely haven't shared it with with folks. I'm like, alright. Let me talk about it. Let me think about it because I think it's something that could be really fun.
Luke Bilberry:You know? And I'm not looking to make a business actually out of it, but there's something that's, again, my heart that I feel like I need to bring out. And so and in doing so, hopefully, that helps God use my gifts, passions, abilities to leverage that for kingdom influence. So so just even in that moment, you've given me some courage. So thanks for that.
Luke Bilberry:I wanna do a couple quick, like, hot takes with with you. John, what is how are you using AI in your personal life that you think would benefit the everyday person?
Jon VerLee:Yeah. So AI, it's a lot of fun when I'm driving around with my kids. And I one of my kids in particular loves current events. He loves the news. And so we, you know, hop hop on a podcast about seventeen minutes, long, and it takes us about forty five minutes to get through it because we hit a point where we're talking about some topic that the vocab is a little bit over his head or he doesn't know what it means.
Jon VerLee:Right? Whether it's some war that's happening or some policy, we hit pause, hit another button, and up pops the, AI listening. And we say, hey, tell us about and then insert whatever topic it is that we're that we're talking about, be it tariffs or a school policy or how a certain conflict started in The Middle East. And, and the conversation there between, my kid, the AI, and myself is so rich. And so just integrating AI into normal life, is fantastic.
Luke Bilberry:So you have the opportunity. I'm gonna be careful how I say this. Don't wanna put words in your mouth. Using the the information from AI as a way to have a conversation with your son in order to disciple him. Because those things are gonna give neutral information, but how you help him guide, that's wisdom.
Luke Bilberry:There's knowledge coming in, but wisdom is how you help him live that out. Hey, in light of this, this is how we, the VerLee family, follows after Jesus in the midst of Would that be like a a way that you would process some of those conversations in real time? I don't wanna be too heavy handed with that, but I'm trying to think through that from a discipleship oriented. It's a neutral information. Knowledge puffs up, but wisdom, right?
Luke Bilberry:That's that's what God wants for us is to walk as wise people in light of his word.
Jon VerLee:Right. That's exactly right. And so the AI provides the context. As a dad, I can provide the values overlay on top of that and my son can provide the question and follow-up questions, right? And so it's that kind of trifecta that brings about kind of next level learning.
Jon VerLee:AI is also the greatest educator that we've ever had, right? Like everybody now has a tutor in their pocket. And so I want to be able to train my kids that if they don't know something, here is a tool on how to solve that problem in the same way that the previous generation trained their kids on Google and the same way that the previous generation trained their kids on the encyclopedia, right? The mode changes, but it is the fastest way to learn.
Luke Bilberry:It's still community is the one that filters that out, that helps you know how to live and operate in the in the time and space that God has allowed you to have. What would you say are like a few books, resources, podcasts that you would encourage anyone that's in inner interested in spirituality, technology, the intersect, or some places that maybe we we could learn from? Because like you said, there's so much more and it's rapidly changing and feels like almost every day there's some new aspect of this. Are there any resources, books that you would encourage that lays our foundation or challenged our presuppositions that we should operate from?
Jon VerLee:Yeah, going back to the culture topic, I am a big fan of Bob Goff. Bob's books, and he has a couple of them focus on fun, a little bit whimsical. It takes some of the serious stuffy edge out of theology conversations and brings about a heart to them that I find really refreshing.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. If I remember his book, One of them, Love Does, and here's a story where there's a camp that's near him and he would sit on the edge of the bank and he would throw candy at the kids as they were canoeing down at the camp and just say, Hey, I love you. I see you
Jon VerLee:or something Exactly like right. He has another one more recently called Dream Big, which is encouraging readers to dream those God sized visions that again can only happen with God's help and with His guidance, to not hold ourselves back. And honestly, think that's where it starts. I think that technology again is a tool to help realize those visions. If we start with technology, we've started in the wrong spot, which is also true in the business world.
Jon VerLee:If you start with, here's a cool technology, how do I make a business out of it? You're already on the wrong road. The right road is to say, here's a problem, wanna solve it. Oh, by the way, technology can help me do that better.
Luke Bilberry:That's an incredible framework that we maybe, would you say maybe we get lost in the implementation or in a small piece of it, we're not actually understanding the why behind it?
Jon VerLee:The more technical you are the greater the risk you run-in being fascinated by the technology and missing the point. And I'm preaching to myself here as a technologist. It's so easy to geek out on the latest specifications of the last ChadGBT update or similar, but we've got to keep the end in mind.
Luke Bilberry:Well, think that's in that. That's probably a good place for us to wrap up this conversation, John, just to keep the end in mind. And so I just want say one thanks for being someone who has served the church and who is continuing to help challenge us in the way that we think and creating and using technology. But also, what I hear you also saying is to show up and to be fully present, to take that initiative with person that's right in front of you, and you get to create a space for them to be seen, known, and hopefully encounter this incredible God that loves them and knows them and has made a way for them for all eternity. And so, John, thanks for being being a part of this conversation.
Jon VerLee:It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Luke, for having me. And, I look forward to chatting more in the future.