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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. This is our special Everything is Political series. Where we're going to help you draw the connections between your everyday life and the world around you. Let's get started.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:12)
We are back with another episode of our series, Everything is Political. And today we have two guests with us, Gwen Nolan and Erica Clayhar. We're going to be talking about ⁓ waste, garbage, food waste, clothing waste, all kinds of waste and how that, intersections of that and how that affects not just day day life, but climate change, all kinds of things. So.
We're gonna give you guys a moment to introduce yourself. So Erica, I'm gonna start with you if you just tell us who you are, what you do, why you're part of this conversation. And then Gwen, you can just jump in whenever Erica's done.
Erica Clahar (00:52)
Okay, so my name is Erica Clahar. I am from New York City. I'm living in Atlanta. ⁓ I am the executive director and founder of any feeds, a food waste nonprofit. pick up food from, we pick up surplus food and we distribute it to people who are food insecure. And I am here to talk about food waste and why it's political. Thank you for inviting me.
Gwenn Nolan (01:13)
So I am Gwen Nolan. I'm the founder of Mother Compost. We are a food excess recycling organization operating in the greater Philadelphia region. I started the company about seven years ago. And we've diverted about five million pounds of food waste from landfills and incinerators in the Philadelphia region. And really, you know, I'm here to share what I know about the current waste management structure and why it is very political.
Erica Clahar (01:13)
Thank
Gwenn Nolan (01:39)
different solutions that are happening right now in the world and the work that Erica is also doing to keep food out of the waste stream is really important.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:49)
I just want to say that number you shared when you said five million pounds, right? Was that it? Five million. And that sounds like such a huge number. And then for you to say that's just Philadelphia and that's just a small part of what you able to I think it starts to illustrate just how much and that's specifically food waste, which is I've, I've, I've interviewed when in the past and for that I did research and I learned that food waste is like the number one source of
Erica Clahar (01:49)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:16)
like what's in the landfills of waste? And I don't think we often think about that. I think it's also, we think, it's a banana pill. It's like compostable or whatever. So it's fine. But that stuff is filling up landfills. And number one, to speak to what Erica does, it's food that could, often it's food that is edible. It could be in the mouths of people who don't have access to food. And two, it's something that...
maybe is compostable, but because it's not going through those right procedures, we're putting it into the trash can and it's going into landfill, it's causing all kinds of issues. I don't have a specific question other than I just want to point out for people how big of an issue food is when we talk about waste. think often when people think about waste, they think about other things, right? They're thinking about like clothes and wrapping and, you know, plastic because and plastic is certainly a huge issue, not anyway.
Erica Clahar (02:50)
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:07)
downplay that. But I don't think we often think about food. So I don't know if either of you want to just speak to like, how big of an issue food is when we talk about waste.
Erica Clahar (03:12)
you
Gwenn Nolan (03:14)
I mean, it's the single largest category item we throw away in the United States. It's roughly 140 billion pounds a year. So here in the US, we throw away 40 % of our food supply every year. So of what we grow, we take almost half of it, and it's discarded throughout the chain. It's not just from households. It's from throughout the supply chain. But that's water.
energy to transport, harvesting, our land use, right? So much of it goes into agriculture. So all of these resources are poured into something that we then throw away. It's one of the dumbest problems I think we have. mean, it's just...
Taina Brown she/hers (03:52)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:52)
Yeah. Erica, how many
Erica Clahar (03:52)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:55)
food, you know how many food insecure people there are in the US? I mean, if we're talking about 40 % of our food is going into a trash can.
Erica Clahar (04:03)
I can tell you in Georgia, it's between one and seven and one and eight people are food insecure. So quite a lot. If we had four more people on this panel, one somebody in that group is food insecure. So that's how serious it is, at least in Georgia.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:14)
Mm.
Wow, wow, can you both? God.
Gwenn Nolan (04:18)
think it's like 40 million throughout the US. that's also
like, think about the data, right? Those people had to say that that's also a chronically under-reported issue.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:28)
Yeah,
Erica Clahar (04:28)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:29)
yeah, yeah. And some people might not be comfortable like self-identifying as being food insecure. Some people might not have access to those kinds of surveys, right, to identify themselves as food insecure. So that number could be who knows? Yeah, yeah. Can you both share a little bit about like how you got into this work? Like what was the tipping point for you in understanding that this was
Erica Clahar (04:36)
Okay.
Thank you.
Gwenn Nolan (04:39)
Right.
Erica Clahar (04:43)
even more.
Gwenn Nolan (04:45)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54)
an issue that needed your specific attention, right? Like what kind of put you over the edge there?
Gwenn Nolan (05:01)
you want to go first on this one.
Erica Clahar (05:03)
Okay, so I was volunteering at an event. I was like really minding my own business. I was at an art event with the city of Atlanta and at the end of the event they were throwing the food away. I'm a creative, I have a marketing degree, so this is not like a thing that I was into. It was just an event. I'm like, why are we throwing away food? Why are we wasting the food? Let's give it to someone. That was just my initial thought, like, you know. And they were a little bit hesitant because...
They didn't, you know, they were scared to give the food to the people, right? Or to anyone really, honestly, they were afraid to give it because they didn't know, neither did I know at the time, right? That there's a law that was enacted in 1992 by then president Bill Clinton, which is the Good Samaritan Donation Act. So.
They didn't know that, neither did I, but they didn't want me. I had on a t-shirt because I was volunteering. They didn't want me to have the t-shirt on just in case they don't want any affiliation. if anyone got sick or anything like that, they didn't want to be represented. They didn't want the liability or anything. So I got into it really on a whim. I didn't want the food to be thrown away. So I took it to a nearby park where I knew there were some unhoused folks, gave them the food. And really, it kind of started from there. I was like, OK.
This was easy, this was simple, and this is good stuff. And then you learn, like when I was out there pretty much serving, they were people who had different dietary restrictions. So I got to know and understand that everyone does not eat meat. Everyone has different things going on. And so it kind of got me, my wheels turning and said that I wanted to do this again. I wanted to.
And I still at that time did not even know that that was food waste and that was redistributing food, all of the terms that exist. And that's pretty much how I got started with with Unifiz. It wasn't even a business at that point. I was just doing it as a civilian, giving out what was left.
Thank you.
Gwenn Nolan (06:52)
It's so funny because
our stories actually are so similar in many ways. my background is in public relations and I was working in operations in financial services. And I had two little kids at home. I was waiting. had one on the way. My kids didn't eat anything. So I was throwing away just an absurd amount of food at home. It was driving me insane for all the reasons. And I spent one lunch hour just kind of going down the wormhole.
Erica Clahar (07:00)
Thank
Gwenn Nolan (07:20)
like, how big of a problem is this? And it's huge. And as we've discovered here today, it's enormous. And composting, you know, short of getting edible food into the mouths of those who need it.
You know, for me at that moment, I was working a full-time job. I was about to have three kids. We had a home. I was completely underwater. And so I was trying to compost at home, but a lot of what my kids were generating, you know, like half a girl cheese and things like that, I couldn't actually put in my backyard system. So I just came to the realization that like,
Erica Clahar (07:52)
you
Gwenn Nolan (07:55)
Composting is is sort of the last line of defense, right? Like this is a way we can at least recover the resources in our food, the nutrients, the water, and get it back into our soils, which are also like desperately in need of nutrients. And I like still can't figure out.
happened in my brain when I was like I don't have time to compost at home but I'm gonna start a company so did it make it easy for more people to compost like I'm gonna blame that on hormones because I really like that I just I can't get back to that version of Gwen and what she was thinking however
Erica Clahar (08:18)
I love you.
Gwenn Nolan (08:28)
I really think at the heart of it, like I looked at my babies faces and this is a moment where you're like, we do have the iceberg warning in our hands, right? Like we know, we do know. We know what we're doing to our soils. We know how big of a problem trash is. it's so, know, Becky, to your point, it's so huge and scary that most people shut down. The second you say three million tons a year, people are like, I don't even know what that number is. I'm out, right? I can't wrap my head around it.
Erica Clahar (08:47)
Okay.
Yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (08:54)
At some point, I imagine my kids will sit me down and tell me all the things I did wrong, both as a parent and as a generation. And I need to be able to say that I really tried. It may have been my sandbag against a tsunami, but like.
I showed up and gave it my best effort. And that's really where. So I emailed 10 friends and I was like, I have this idea. It took me like eight months. And I started buying domain names before I even told anybody about it. The next year I was like, wow, you really were creeping. ⁓
Erica Clahar (09:27)
Thank you.
Gwenn Nolan (09:28)
And at the end of that process, what we discovered was that seven out of the 10 people who were composting for a month, they're like, I did feel better. It was something I could do every day to reduce the amount of trash. And it made me feel better. And I think that's, to me, composting is a great entrance into let's create less waste. Here's a really start here and then see what happens.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:52)
You're
both really inspiring in this, seeing a problem and saying, moving into how do I help solve it. I love stories like that. And no surprise, it's often women, I feel like, especially who aren't like, I see a problem, how do I monetize this? That feels like the male track. This drug of men and women seems to be, I see a problem and I just want to be a part of the solution. So I really love that. And I honor that you both have done that. I wanted to talk and
Erica Clahar (10:03)
my god.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:19)
We may bounce around here some because Taina may want to go one direction, I may want to go another, so please bear with us. But one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately because I live in St. Louis and we have a landfill here that's made quite a bit of news because of the runoff into a creek. The runoff that comes from the landfill, how it's been affecting local water supply. It's Coldwater Creek. There's been a big issue. We've had EPA in, we've had all kinds of people in.
our senator who's useless, but in this one issue has at least been trying to fight around how do we take care of this because the communities that have been most affected are communities that are predominantly black, right? But the runoff is coming from areas that are predominantly white. And I think this is an issue that is pretty common. And I'm wondering, as you have both been learning more about
Erica Clahar (10:57)
Got it?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:08)
the disparities that exist inside of this issue. mean, obviously there's disparities around food insecurity and those needs, but I imagine there's also disparities you've been noticing about who gets access to the best quality trash removal. And we don't even think, I think most people with privilege don't probably even think of that as a thing, but there is a difference and who's getting, who's getting.
the best kind of composting options available to them or getting, you know, recycling options available to them and not whose trash is being prioritized to even be picked up. And then also where that trash is going and where the runoff and things like that are going. the the downstream literally effects of waste and the disparities there. So I don't know if either of you have had much exposure with that, but that's been on my brain a lot because it's been such an issue here in St. Louis.
Erica Clahar (12:00)
I'll say that I would in wealthier areas, areas where there is more money and lighter conflections, the trash is probably picked up much consistently, much in on time. So that's one. And you talk about trash and you get into pollution and stuff like that and they are more public trash cans. They are more recycling options in certain communities. They're not even recycling. So, you know, just think about that.
And then in other communities, there's illegal dumping that's happening as well. I see it a lot in different communities where folks are reporting it, but it's still happening. those are things that folks don't even have to worry about. The streets are cleaner because the infrastructure supports it. So there's a lot of different things happening versus in Black communities, there's fewer public trash bins. So the litter is more visible. And so it says this community is OK with it.
it'll be a slower and consistent pick up in terms of trash. So you see it happening in different ways that, you know, that you, that it seems you don't even really know what's the issue until, you know, it's an issue until it's brought up and you're like, okay, well, I didn't even realize what's going on in other communities, but you see a delay in services, you know, for city services because, you know, whatever is happening. So.
⁓ More folks are active, know, you know also Sometimes white folks are more a little more Persistent about this happening in their community or if you you know where there is income where there is wealth Which is really I think really important is the wealth disparity Dictates how a city is run what's happening? What's not happening? And so you just see it there is just a power play. You really don't have money You really don't have power. You don't you're in your work and you don't
You don't even have the time or the energy to even respond to the lack that's happening in your community, especially as a collective. There's probably, not probably, there's always one, two, or even a few that complain, but it's not, the voice is not loud enough as a collective to make anything really happen. And then are they really listening to you when you're coming in as two or three, you know, or a few? I think there's louder,
more demand and more push when there is more people to push it actually.
Gwenn Nolan (14:17)
I totally agree. And that's we see some of that play out up here in the Philadelphia region as well, Erica. And I want to be really transparent. So we I started this Mar company on the main line of Philadelphia, which is one of the wealthiest areas in the country. And, know, we designed our service to make it easy because I was literally like every working mom. I'm trying to get that subset of the market who's like, I'm in, but it needs to be easy and not gross or a mouth like I can't.
Erica Clahar (14:29)
Mmm.
Gwenn Nolan (14:42)
And that's that's kind of been our our sweet our sweet spot, but it also has priced our our curbside services high because we have to spend more time cleaning these containers on site. And we want to work in different communities and have more community been like bring your scraps to us, right? Because it's super efficient for us and it's still then residents can participate. But we got some pushback at the state level, so we kind of have to reimagine how we deliver services to different areas at different price points at this moment. We're in the middle of that pivot.
it. But, you know, I want to be transparent in the space because that is something that we're struggling with as a company. You how do we bring services to the people at the price point that they can participate? And it really involves getting involved with these townships who are also dealing with a lot, right? They're grappling with a lot. And my hope is as we see grant funding
at some point come back into the space. That will be when we can get a little bit more municipal participation to kick these things off. The other thing that's happening here in Philadelphia, incineration is actually the predominant form of trash waste management because landfilling has gotten increasingly expensive as the landfills get closer and closer to capacity within a drivable distance of Philadelphia. The two incineration incinerator facilities in our region
Erica Clahar (15:54)
Okay.
Gwenn Nolan (16:01)
are located in Plymouth meeting and Chester. Chester being right along the waterfront and predominantly full of folks of color. They have been trying to shut down that incineration for probably 30 years at this point. There's a ton of, there's also a lot of industrial development has been approved along the waterfront and then when you look at
the combination of incineration and some of the other industrial factories they have along the waterfront. You're seeing higher asthma, right? Cancer rates, just the co-occurrences of these things. And there are, was
Taina Brown she/hers (16:34)
.
Gwenn Nolan (16:35)
at a community event two weeks ago where they're just like, they're...
They're calling it the Save Our Air Act because in Pennsylvania, each citizen has a constitutional right to clean air and clean water. It is written into the state constitution. So they are there's there's some energy behind this renewal of incineration as a seven year renewal of their trash contract to say we don't want to go into Covanta anymore. However, I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:40)
Hmm. You
Gwenn Nolan (17:01)
The challenge is the costs will skyrocket, right? So you're seeing it play out in real time right now. There's communities fighting to get this shut down. And there's even counties where they're sending trash from one area to be burned in another area of the county, right? Like the cognitive dissonance is deafening.
So I think Philadelphia and a lot of these East Coast cities where the land has gotten so expensive, can't... So this Covanta facility is not just taking Philadelphia trash, it's also taking stuff from Jersey, it's also taking stuff from New York. ⁓ I think we're really reaching a tipping point, to use your earlier language, where...
Erica Clahar (17:24)
Thank
Yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (17:41)
We need to both dramatically reduce what we're sending to these trash facilities with more effective recycling programs, composting program. Like how much less trash can we create? And then can we dispose of it in a more responsible fashion? But.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:57)
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (17:58)
and
Gwenn Nolan (17:59)
an expensive problem to solve, which is creating
Taina Brown she/hers (18:02)
Okay.
Gwenn Nolan (18:04)
opportunity for composting because people are like, well, food is a third of what we throw away and it's the wet, heavy stuff, so if we can get that out, it should reduce what we're in tipping fees at the incinerator or the landfill.
and it's not causing the issues at the landfill. it's not a great candidate for incineration because to light water on fire, food is like 75 to 99 % water, requires a lot of energy. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:26)
Yeah, yeah. You both
Erica Clahar (18:28)
I mean.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:29)
brought up in different parts of the conversation so far, like.
Actual structural obstacles, right? Systemic obstacles to doing the work. Like Erica, you mentioned that your first experience with like redistributing food, the organization was wary because if someone got sick, they don't want to be sued, right? And at the time you didn't know about the Good Samaritan Law, which helps to kind of cover that. as a side note, I'm curious if that law is still in effect, but okay, is. Okay. And then, know, Glenn, you-
Erica Clahar (18:55)
It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:59)
and the state just kind of having to work with the state in terms of being able to operate your business in a way that creates access to certain communities. And I know a big part of the conversation in terms of waste also and climate change on a broader scale is how much of it should be
Erica Clahar (19:13)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:22)
on the shoulders of the individual versus how much of it should be on the shoulders of the systemic or these structures, these institutions that have helped to create these problems. And so how do you balance that in your work? How do you come to terms with that? Because I know, Gwen, you mentioned a lot of people are like, three billion or 40 million or whatever. And it's like, your mind can't even wrap itself around that.
Gwenn Nolan (19:36)
you
Erica Clahar (19:43)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (19:46)
astronomical of a number, so your brain just kind of shuts down and you just kind of give up, right? So like, how do you negotiate that in the work that you do? And how do you just not get hope? Like, even like sitting here, I've been listening to you talk about, both of you talk about this, and I'm just like, it's hopeless. Like, what can we actually do? You know, like I've been fighting that sense of despair, even just in this moment. So how do you do that on a daily basis?
Erica Clahar (20:11)
I mean, it's a systemic issue really. You even going back to the trash and the original question that Becky asked, it's more like when you think about it's environmental racism, this as Gwen says, like that waste can cause illness because that, I mean, we look at, you're in St. Louis, what state is that? Michigan, they have it, Missouri, where they have the water and stuff like that. That's the issue that could have been avoided and wasn't. So I think the issue is not,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:32)
Missouri.
Erica Clahar (20:40)
You know, we can point the finger at others, but it's really a everybody issue. It's we are the biggest proponents of food waste. You know, we throw away more food. We buy. I know. know. Listen, I'm a point of finger myself. I know sometimes even me, I get food and I intend on cooking it. I really do. I tend on cooking and juicing it, doing all the things. And it's sometimes I don't have I don't get to it because now we live in this world. Everybody's so busy. We don't have the full time to sit and be in the kitchen.
preparing the meals and doing all the things that used to happen. so we, know, however it is that you don't get to it, you don't get to it and then you're throwing food away. Everything comes in plastic wraps. So you get, you buy anything, it's what, you know, it's all of this packaging that has to be then wasted. It's in plastic. And so then it's also the systemic error, you know, issue where government can do better. They have a part to play in it as well.
And so I would say everybody really has it. It's not one person's problem. It's everybody's problem. And so we can do better with, know, in terms of like preparing food, menu planning, doing those things on a small, on a micro level into the macro level where, you know, there could be better systems in place so that government and whatnot can make better decisions on how
Taina Brown she/hers (21:58)
you .
Erica Clahar (22:02)
on how waste is handled, how waste is accumulated. mean, just, you know, we started off the call and when, you know, touted the 40 % of food is wasted, you know, just because if if a orange comes through or an onion comes through and it's not the size that it needs to be in order for it to go to market, it's going to get wasted. And so
it's a lot of, when I look at waste, I think it's a waste of time.
that happens. It's a waste of money. It's a waste of resources. It's a waste of so much. And now that I've gotten into the food space and the waste management side a little bit, you realize you don't want to waste anything. I don't want to waste time. don't want to waste the hour by the dentic can. If that means that at least it could be sold and it's still the same contents. I mean, I try not to buy too much canned goods nowadays, but
Taina Brown she/hers (22:28)
Hmm.
Erica Clahar (22:54)
you know, as much as I can do to play a part. But, you know, we are human and we will waste, you know, I think it also involves education. For example, the most common thing, I would say bananas when they start turning brown and people don't want it because it doesn't look as good as it did when you first picked it up and it was yellow. But it takes, it's the best when it starts to get those brown specks.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:19)
That's when you make the best banana
Erica Clahar (23:20)
You know what saying? Like,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:20)
bread, baby.
Gwenn Nolan (23:21)
That's right. Sweet.
Erica Clahar (23:22)
it makes
the best banana bread, but it's also still good and edible. It's not really for food waste, you know, just yet. the, it has the most potent, it's the most potent at that point. But people, so I think they're involved in education so that people's fingers cannot be like this.
Like what can I do on a micro level and what can government do on a macro level to divert food from being wasted and anything from being wasted, whether it's plastics, clothes, any type of resource. I think it's a everybody issue. Everybody has a part to play. We are the bigger parts of that play, you know, because we waste so much. You you buy clothes that you don't even.
use or wear. You know, they say you wear 20 % of your clothes, that you got a full closet. I remember I'm even thinking of a song from this entertainer. He said he got a car that he haven't even drove yet. It is like, it's a flex, but it's really about waste. You know, you have things that you don't even use. And I will say this lastly, is I learned so much from the unhoused folks, right? You see them out and they have
everything that they need in that suitcase and that bag on their backs. And then we come to, know, most Americans have more than what they need. And so it's like, if they can live with just a little bit in their bags and a little bit in their suitcase, what are we doing where we have so much stuff? We're overburdened with things, you know? And so I say, I think, I say it's everybody. Everybody can do that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:55)
Yeah, and that's so good. Right? And when you deal a lot with local municipalities and government in some of these issues, and you said, like Taina pointed out, there was like even just getting pushback when you're and I'm sure it's frustrating because you feel like I'm trying to do a good thing here and then you're having to sort of fight through red tape and deal with pushback and all of that. And I am certain that there are reasons on the books that probably to the government's
Erica Clahar (24:55)
⁓ Yeah, suffocated. Yeah, I stabbed.
Gwenn Nolan (24:55)
stufficating.
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (25:21)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:22)
Like it may make maybe even some legitimately make sense, but it has to be frustrating. And so when you like for people who are listening like Tanya said, who are like, what's the point? When you think about the government part of that, obviously it's who we elect. But what are the things we should be thinking about the questions we should be asking of our politicians? You know, how do we even start to sort of make this a conversation?
Gwenn Nolan (25:25)
Totally.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:45)
with ourselves and with those we're electing as we think about it. Because I don't think this is an issue that goes very high in people's thoughts when they're thinking at the ballot box. You know what I mean?
Gwenn Nolan (25:53)
Totally, but I think to Erica's point, it's almost what we're talking about really is a societal transformation, right? Like moving from a society of extraction, of consumption, to a caretaking society where we take care of each other, where we take care of our shared home, where we use what we need but not everything we want, right? To the point where...
And it's just so far from where we are today that I think that's where we get the overwhelm. You're like, I mean, forget it, but we imagined this world into existence, right? Maybe it wasn't just us and it was generations and generations of us, but it is our responsibility now to imagine the future for the generations that are coming. And I think all of us can agree that we want it to be more equitable, more beautiful.
caretaking than the reality that we're all living in today. you know, Erica, you made a great point. I tell this when I teach composting to kids. I'm like, there's eight billion species on the planet. We've only identified actually like 20%. We are the only one that creates trash. So this enormous problem that's poisoning the air and the water.
Erica Clahar (27:06)
you
Gwenn Nolan (27:12)
where we live, right? This huge thing, is solely our doing. There's, like, that is a big fact that we need to own.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:17)
I want to jump in before Taina has
a chance to mention Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Marie Brown, because as soon as you say that, because she talks about that. And also, and the other is Robin Wall Kimmerer, because both of them do such a really great job about talking about nature and the lessons it can teach us both as just humans on this earth and in Adrienne's case, more around like business, but also about being human. Yes, right.
Erica Clahar (27:27)
When does that happen?
Gwenn Nolan (27:42)
and in such beautiful language that you just like want to take
a bath in it. Yeah, so good.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:47)
Yeah, because the whole point is
to in nature, there is this understanding that like the stream produces the water, not for itself. Right. The creek is producing the water for the little animals that run by and need that water. And the trees are creating shade for the animals and for the mushrooms. And then the mushrooms are providing sustenance, not for themselves, but for. Right. So it's like this understanding, the symbiosis of we all exist. And the only way we all survive is by helping each other.
Erica Clahar (28:01)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:15)
And humans, to your point, are the place where that gets, that message has gotten completely lost, thanks in no small part to white supremacist capitalist patriarchy, the way we're showing up now, right? It has turned into this extractive model. And what happens at the end of extraction? There's nothing.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:21)
and
There's nothing left.
There's nothing left. You're left with nothing. Yeah. I wasn't going to mention emergent strategy, but I was going to mention, you know, this, just, makes me think of a lot of what we sometimes talk about on the podcast, which is like this way of thinking that's more collectivist, but also a way that
Erica Clahar (28:38)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:38)
I'm surprised.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:52)
a way of thinking that like honors Indigenous and ancient practices of caring for each other and for the Earth, right? Because when we think about, or when we look back historically, right, to how Indigenous communities have survived and have lived, like, there is this sense of everything having its place and nothing gets wasted as much as as much as is possible, right? Like I think as humans, there's like Erika said, there's always going to be some facet of waste that
that we're going to have, think, just because we're imperfect and there is no perfect system for us to be able to live in a completely waste-free society. I think when we look at Indigenous practices and these ancient models of community and living, there's so many ways that waste gets reduced, that care gets ⁓ prioritized. I mean, it makes me think even things as simple as like
And when we're thinking about like this waste economy, like we're so quick to just throw things away because they don't work anymore as opposed to fixing them, right? Like your watch doesn't work. Like you just toss it or it gets forgotten and then you see a new one that you like and you just buy a new watch, right? If anybody even wears watches anymore, right? But I'm sure some people do, right? Because a lot of us use our phones and devices for keeping the time, but.
Erica Clahar (29:49)
Mm.
Gwenn Nolan (30:14)
think there's a
whole flex watch market. Someone was telling me about it. Yeah, I was like, what? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:17)
Yeah, like if you're wealthy enough, right? Like it's your watch game, right? It's part of your fit. ⁓
also just like old buildings, right? Like it's cheaper to tear down old buildings and build new, right? As opposed to rehabilitating old structures and things like that. And so we've gotten into this societal way of thinking in most of the globe, right? Where it's like, no, new is better.
More is better, right? As opposed to, well, how can we conserve? Yeah, and definitely it's a Western, Western white supremacist thing for sure. And so it's like, how do we, yeah, how do we?
Gwenn Nolan (30:46)
Certainly in this part of the globe, yeah. Correct. Yeah.
Erica Clahar (30:49)
The humor is...
capitalism.
Gwenn Nolan (30:58)
Well, and to
the point of the companies, it's planned obsolescence, right? Like you used to buy a washing machine, it would last 30 years. Now they last four. I mean, and the way I'm running it, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm doing like seven to 10 loads a week. The guy was like, oh, it'll be done in two. I was like, what the hell? Why? I don't, you know, like it's this planned obsolescence of our phones, all that, like everything's just, oh, your car's old, get a new one. Like, why? Why? It's fine.
Erica Clahar (31:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:08)
because they want you to buy a new one.
Erica Clahar (31:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (31:27)
Drives fine.
Erica Clahar (31:27)
We live in such a consumer market now that it's more trendy to, oh, you still have an old phone? You still on the, what is it, iPhone 10 and we're on 16 now? Like, you know, and your phone's not even lasting. It's been like, remember my phone. So I have a Samsung and I have the S21. I don't even know what's out now. But like my husband used to think that I would
I would, my phone would act up whenever a new model came out. And I'm like, you know, I'm not caring about a new model because I'm you know, one to stand on the line and wait for the new phone and stuff like that. But we do live in this capitalist world where it is more trendy to waste stuff and without even realizing that that's what you're doing, right? You're in a culture that you didn't really ask to be in in terms of.
watches, there is a whole watch market out there with high-end watches, other watches, you know. I'm not a watch person. I have a watch, but I don't wear it, right? But I won't throw it away because I'm like, you know, just I somehow I'm aware at some point. But I think, I think it's just a culture now. I think that's where we are. We buy things that we don't use. We throw away things because somehow
There's no repercussions. you knew, if you saw what it did to the environment, what it did to communities and whatnot, I think people will waste less. I think it's more again around education. If there was an education, if you actually saw what was happening, I think people would waste less. You don't want to harm your neighbor at the end of the day, but when you do those things, sometimes you are doing that and you're just not aware. I remember
This is a sidebar, but I remember as an education piece where my daughters, I raised my daughters vegetarian and they were, one of them was thinking about eating meat. So I took them to see this documentary, I think it's called Food, Inc. And they show you how like the chicken is killed before it goes to market or whatever. And they left out of there like, I'm never eating meat.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:39)
Mm
Erica Clahar (33:39)
ever,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:39)
hmm.
Erica Clahar (33:40)
especially not chicken, and so they have still, they're 21 and 24 years old, they have never eaten ⁓ meat. And so I think it is if there's some education around policies, how things are done, people would do less. People really would do less.
Gwenn Nolan (33:56)
But I do think that we also need extender producer responsibility. For pollution, was a bill that if you're going to just print water bottles, you do have some responsibility to make sure they're recycled. Because recycling programs are not always available in the places where these things are being consumed. And it can't just be on the individual to figure this out. You guys are poisoning the whole planet. Take some responsibility.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:20)
Okay.
Erica Clahar (34:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:23)
Thank
Gwenn Nolan (34:23)
I mean, it does, it requires both. And I think to your point of like, how do you stay engaged? It's like, you stay on the road, you grip as hard as you can and stay engaged as long as you can. And then when you need to get off the ride for a minute and just like, go sit in nature for a month, like do that and then come back refreshed. You know, you have to kind of.
do this work in shifts and continue to figure out what the next best thing and how to educate. A lot of times these politicians are also, you know, there's a lot of issues, right? A lot of them are interconnected, but they're not always getting the perspective. So they don't know how composting sounds like an agriculture thing, but it's actually a waste management tool when we look at these more urban areas. But like, if you're just...
Taina Brown she/hers (35:06)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:08)
Yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (35:09)
a
state senator from Pennsylvania, you're not thinking about it that way. And it's not even their fault, right? They're busy folks, too, trying to figure things out. I think a lot of times we assume it's just faceless, you know, government body on the input. And it's usually a public servant who's overwhelmed by their job, who's trying to do the best they can. they they're just whatever information they're getting. Unfortunately, the very well funded lobbying groups and corporations tend
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:27)
right?
Gwenn Nolan (35:38)
be getting their information in front of them more than the composters at Philadelphia, so we got to do better there.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:40)
Well.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:41)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:43)
Yeah, and know, thinking of
the situation here in St. Louis with this landfill, it has been an issue for decades, right? It's not like it just happened overnight. This has been a, as Erica mentioned, like that was something that people saw it happening. It wasn't like, I wonder what's going to happen with this giant landfill that we just keep filling up, Right. And burning and there's water running off and whatever. But it took, shock of all shocks, a group of concerned moms, right, as it often does.
Gwenn Nolan (35:59)
It's like a full Aaron Brockovich moment. Like someone, yeah.
Erica Clahar (36:11)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:11)
to
finally press the issue enough and get in front of enough, starting at the state level up until finally this US Senator who is a Republican who does not care much about people. Like I will be frank, man doesn't even live in our state, Josh Hawley. I think all of us have lots of thoughts about Josh Hawley. And this is a rare time where I have to actually give him some credit because he finally, these moms got loud enough to a place where they couldn't be ignored anymore. And he had to start to take action. But you're right, because they have a slate of a million issues they're dealing with, many of them.
Erica Clahar (36:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:40)
in
Josh Hawley's case, ridiculous issues that don't even matter. But for them to pay attention to something, there has to be noise made and somebody has to take that charge. But I also love the Gwen that you pointed out. It's easy for us to individualize these issues and make people feel shame for using a plastic straw when the truth is the biggest waste creators are not us individuals, they are corporations, right? Corporations, by and large, create
I can't remember what some astronomical percentage of the waste on this planet, right? So they are, even if we are the ones who ultimately put it into the trash can, they are creating that problem through their packaging, through the ways that they're selling things, through the planned obsolescence, all of this. So we also have to remember, like it is at that bigger level. And like two things can be true as Taina, I always talking about nuance that can be true. And there is stuff that we can do at the individual level shop at the thrift store.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:33)
Right? We don't have to buy everything new. know, start composting. Gwen, you mentioned, or maybe it was Erica, whoever mentioned that like it's the not seeing it. When I started composting, saw it was a stark reminder for me of every time I'm taking a bag of this stuff out to the compost pile, I'm looking at how much would have been in the trash can. And it is that reminder for me that it does make a difference because I'm, you know, my family isn't that big. There's three of us, but every week it's probably two or three little shopping bags of
Taina Brown she/hers (37:36)
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (37:54)
Right.
you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:02)
of stuff
that just from fresh foods. So all of those things are so important. There is that individual responsibility, even if our responsibility is not at the same level as government and corporate responsibility.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13)
Yeah,
yeah, there's something that everyone can do, you know, like Erica mentioned, like there's, I think the more, the bigger your realm of control, right, the bigger your responsibility, the more you can do, but even at the individual level, there's definitely things you can do. know
One thing that my wife and I started doing is freezing leftovers instead of just letting them sit in the fridge and go bad. That way, if there's a day next week where we're tired and we don't feel like cooking, we can just defrost the leftovers. Because neither one of us knows how to cook for just two people. And it's just two of us in our household. Or sharing those leftovers with friends or with a neighbor.
Erica Clahar (38:36)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:47)
No one does, it's a universal problem!
Taina Brown she/hers (38:55)
Like we have a neighbor right next door who's elderly and he lives alone and sometimes we'll share some extra food with him. So that way it's a way to also get to know our neighbors and care for each other and whatnot. And so as we're wrapping up, I wanted to just ask two final questions for sure. And the first one is, what do you want for people who are listening or watching this on YouTube?
What do you want them to still be thinking about after this conversation is over? What do you want them to take away from this?
Erica Clahar (39:27)
I would say that food waste isn't necessarily just about trash, it's about value. It's about what people value. If we waste food, we're saying people are disposable too. So I think hunger doesn't exist because of scarcity, it really exists because of decisions. So it's a decision that is made on a personal level, on a corporate level, on a government level, whether it's city, local, state, whatever, it's a decision that's made. And so the question...
I would say is to do a little deep dive and do one thing at a time. Like you're not going to solve waste overnight. You know, there's 50, 11 million organizations out there and yet we still have hunger. still have, you know, waste management issues. So I would say just do one thing at a time and start with something small. You know, this rethink how you look at waste and what it is and what and how it's harming the environment.
And when you see one day it's 70 something degrees and then the next day it's 40 or 30 or it's snowing, you know, in an area. Just think about how all those things are really connected.
Gwenn Nolan (40:33)
I mean, she really didn't leave much for me. think like you just crushed it right there, Erica. I also, I think value is something like what...
Taina Brown she/hers (40:36)
You
Gwenn Nolan (40:43)
Food is something we all agree, regardless of our political structure, that food is not trash, right? Doesn't matter where you fall. That is something everyone can get behind. And yet, it is the number one category item that we throw away. So really, what do we value here in the United States of America? And it seems like we value convenience over everything. And I think at the heart of it, what that means is that we're all too busy to slow down.
Erica Clahar (40:48)
Thanks, everyone.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:03)
Hmm.
Erica Clahar (41:04)
Yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (41:10)
and take a minute and really think about what we
Erica Clahar (41:13)
Yeah.
Gwenn Nolan (41:13)
And perhaps, I would argue, perhaps that's on purpose. So slowing down, taking time to make a choice intentionally can probably change your life if you're like, maybe I'm not going to throw this away. I'm going to take that home. I'm going to put it in the freezer. Start really making decisions with intention.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:18)
Thanks.
Gwenn Nolan (41:35)
Start small because like if you're working out, you wouldn't try to run a marathon tomorrow. Start try to walk a mile, right? Try to make it sustainable over time. And I always encourage people to follow your curiosity. There are a lot of issues, right? Food waste may not be the hill you're prepared to die on, but.
There's a whole lot of issues we could use some good folks on. So what is the thing that really is getting you? And then maybe follow your curiosity a little more into that. Could you go to a meeting, a community meeting? also, you know, we're so...
Erica Clahar (41:58)
Thank you.
Gwenn Nolan (42:10)
We're hyper connected and yet we're more disconnected than ever. Right? So where are the places you can go in your community to get true connection? Because that's where you get the good information, right? That's where you get actual, the ability to ask questions. You know, I think so much too. Like you were mentioning bringing things to your neighbor. I said to one of my friends at one point when I was losing my mind, and I'm like, did we develop, why am I on a group chain with all my friends and we live around here and we all have kids and I have to make dinner and breakfast and lunch every
Erica Clahar (42:21)
Yeah. ⁓
Gwenn Nolan (42:39)
like why aren't we all doing this together? I could take one shift a week, no problem, but like seven days a week, this is bonkers. We weren't supposed to live like this, right? We weren't supposed to live in our isolation. So we weren't, we weren't, we were supposed to.
Erica Clahar (42:42)
Yes!
Good
Taina Brown she/hers (42:46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:52)
Period, we weren't supposed to live like this. And I would just,
Erica Clahar (42:52)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (42:54)
Yeah ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:57)
I would take your, you say it may be by design. I'll just take that further and say is by design. Yeah, I think we can all agree. Thank you so much. One thing I would just add is I've seen people do the challenge where they give themselves a small jar or like a small container and try to live a week with only putting that like the only trash they can create has to fit inside this jar.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:01)
It is my design.
Gwenn Nolan (43:02)
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (43:17)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:17)
As an experiment, just to see for themselves how challenging it is, how it slows you down, you have to start to think a little more about, do I really need this thing because it's going to take up half my jar and then I don't have any more room, right? So that could be an interesting challenge for people to Yeah, the bite.
Gwenn Nolan (43:30)
or buy nothing or just say I'm not gonna
Taina Brown she/hers (43:31)
or buy nothing,
Gwenn Nolan (43:32)
buy
Erica Clahar (43:32)
just did that. I just did that.
Gwenn Nolan (43:33)
anything.
Erica Clahar (43:34)
I did that in February. I didn't spend any money. so, and then there's this, there's, are these group chats of groups on Facebook that buy nothing for each different community. And so, you know.
Gwenn Nolan (43:43)
Barter. Yeah. Yeah.
⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:48)
find those spaces for
support and try some of those things. Because I think again, like you said, Gwen, I think right now, and Erica said it too, that our trash, we put it out on the curb and then it just goes away. And we don't have to think about it again. Unless you live right by the landfill or the incinerator, unless that's directly affecting your health, you may not even think about what happens then. And so we need to just see it more and that makes a huge difference. So thank you both so much for this discussion. It was fantastic.
Erica Clahar (43:57)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:58)
And we never have to think about it.
Erica Clahar (44:06)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (44:11)
Yeah, yeah,
Erica Clahar (44:12)
Yes. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15)
yeah. Any additional, any additional like resources or books?
Gwenn Nolan (44:16)
Thanks for
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:19)
Is there any great books about trash or food
waste that people should be reading?
Erica Clahar (44:22)
I mean, I don't know. I would say follow Umi feeds on all social media platforms. place it, I go, I went to Wefed. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yes, I went to the conference. So much good information there. Drawdown is another good place to look and know, Feeding America and different places like that.
Gwenn Nolan (44:32)
Yes, Refed's a great, great organization fighting food waste.
There's a nonprofit called the Institute for Local Self-Reliance. based in Virginia, ILSR, run by just a powerhouse woman named Brenda Platt. But they're really focused on anti-monopoly power, and composting is a part of that, right? Because as to how a community manages their waste is part of how they maintain kind of their autonomy. And they have a group of...
Erica Clahar (44:48)
you.
Gwenn Nolan (45:07)
community composters where we share best practices, but they've created the space for it and they have great resources on what's happening politically and how to get involved. And they, you know, so they're, they're a very good nonprofit organization that I would always recommend. And then, I mean, we talked about it, but like braiding sweetgrass was one of the most powerful things I think I've ever read. I have not read her most recent one yet, but it's, it's in, it's in my, it's in my list. Okay.
Erica Clahar (45:25)
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:31)
Serviceberry is also really fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Super
Taina Brown she/hers (45:32)
it's so good. It's a little bite size read and it's just
it's so good. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:36)
quick. Yeah. We'll put all these resources in the show notes. And one thing we didn't mention just really quickly speaking about, you know, environmental racism. We talked a lot about moving trash like you were saying, Gwen, it's going from Pennsylvania to New Jersey or whatever. But we didn't mention the other big problem that's happening is America is offloading its trash into other countries and those countries.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:56)
Other countries, yeah.
Erica Clahar (45:57)
⁓
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:58)
are
almost always predominantly black and brown skin folks. We are exporting our problem to other communities so that becomes their health problem. And that is another big reason why this is an important issue because we are global citizens and we are affecting the health of people all around the globe with our waste.
Gwenn Nolan (46:16)
And we've
seen there's a limit to what other countries are going to take, right? And then all of a sudden all these markets dry up and then.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:22)
And then we
start putting in the ocean and now we have plastic icebergs. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:24)
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (46:24)
Exactly. And then we eat
it in our foods. And then we wear it when we're wearing leggings and we have the microplastics in our clothes.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:28)
Yeah
Gwenn Nolan (46:28)
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:32)
And it's
all being absorbed into. And then we wonder why our life expectancy is starting to go down. yeah, it's all connected and it's all political. So thank you so much, Erica. And when this was fantastic, we appreciate you.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:37)
And our health, yeah, it's all connected. It's all connected.
Gwenn Nolan (46:39)
It is all connected.
Erica Clahar (46:40)
⁓ thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:43)
Yeah.
Erica Clahar (46:43)
Thank you. Thank you. This
Gwenn Nolan (46:47)
Thank you for having
Erica Clahar (46:48)
is awesome. Yes.
Gwenn Nolan (46:48)
me. This was a blast.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:50)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.