Transforming a Top Business School in Asia feat. Sean Ferguson '01

Show Notes

Sean O. Ferguson '01, former associate dean of Rice Business, catches up with host David Droogleever. Sean covers his career path from electrical engineering to pursuing a doctorate in global education and his current work as the associate dean of the Asia School of Business in Kuala Lumpur.

A transcript of this episode is available here.

What is Owl Have You Know?

Owl Have You Know is Rice Business’ podcast created to share the experiences of alumni, faculty, students and other members of our business community – real stories of belonging, failing, rebounding and, ultimately, succeeding. During meaningful conversations, we dive deep into how each guest has built success through troubles and triumphs before, during and after they set foot in McNair Hall.

The Owl Have You Know Podcast is a production of Rice University Jones Graduate School of Business and is produced by University FM.

David Droogleever:
Today on Owl Have You Know.
Sean Ferguson:
And I went to work at Rice and we had an opportunity to do something international. These kinds of experiences were so transformational for me. Bringing these to students in the program was something that I was super enthusiastic about.
David Droogleever:
Welcome in, welcome in. This is Owl Have You Know. I'm your host, David Droogleever. And today, we have a very, very special guest, Sean Ferguson, on the line with us. And Sean and I go way back, homies from when I was getting my MBA in 2010, 2012. And sad to have seen him leave, but he has gone on to flourish and do many things internationally and cross-culturally. So Mr. Sean Ferguson, thank you so much for coming on Owl Have You Know. How are you, sir?
Sean Ferguson:
Hey, thanks Dave. And it's Dr. Sean Ferguson. No, just joking.
David Droogleever:
Hey.
Sean Ferguson:
It's great to catch up, man. It was a real pleasure working with you when I was at the Jones school. And as an alum and an employee, to see candidates like yourself go on to do such great things, man, that's part of what makes the purpose of what we do really feel valuable. So, good to be here.
David Droogleever:
Yeah, absolutely. And good call out. I mean, here's the thing. You have so many bullets on your resume that it's easy to skip past one, and that's a recent thing as well, getting your PhD. And we can maybe fast forward to the end because that's clearly an important component of the feathers in your cap. So is that something that you planned on, getting your PhD, long ago? You wanted to rise to that level, or is that something that sort of fell on your lap? Can you kind of explain maybe the rationale for having gotten to that level of education?
Sean Ferguson:
So, we were talking about this just before we started. And my father, he's from Jamaica. He's an immigrant. He came to the US. And for him, he had always wanted me to get a PhD. And he was looking for me to get a PhD in electrical engineering. And what I tried to explain to him is that when you get a PhD, that has to be something that you have a passion and a commitment to. And for me, that just wasn't the case with electrical engineering. I had gotten into it because it was a good job, steady, that kind of thing. And in his generation, if people didn't go continuously to grad school, he thought they would never go. And when I stopped at Michigan and then went to Rice, he didn't think I would go to Rice.
Sean Ferguson:
And then when I got done with Rice, he didn't think I would get a doctorate. But it was because I found my sense of purpose and the issues that really matter to me as an individual. And just to take it back a little bit, when I came to Rice to work, I was looking for something with a greater sense of purpose. And I didn't know that working for Rice would be that. I just knew I felt good about the product and I believed in the product. But for me, the way that I started to appreciate what I was doing at Rice is that business schools and MBA programs are leadership factories. And I think we all can agree that the world needs more leaders. And when I had the opportunity to get a doctorate in global education, it was a way for me to proliferate my impact in a higher education in a global context. And so that was the real motivation. I had finally found that thing where I could spend all my time evaluating and questioning things and thinking about how we could bring knowledge and insights to my practice.
David Droogleever:
So your focus has always been, as you said, proliferation, your impact in a global context. And is that something that's just been wired into you? I mean, having that internationalist perspective. Quick tip of the hat to Rice Business always having a lot of international folks come in and then doing programs overseas. I remember going to South America when I was getting my business degree. And that is something that is obviously, if you're not pursuing that breadth of education and experience these days, you're basically tone deaf. It's not just the US these days. So in terms of keeping your, let's just say, aperture at a global level, is that something that was driven from when you were young? Is that something that you felt like was your niche as you were proceeding through your career?
Sean Ferguson:
Man, that's a great question, Dave. I think the main driver is just experiences. And so I grew up in Detroit, around the way. And in my world, I went to a school that was 95% African-American. Literally I could go days and days without seeing anyone who was non-black in Detroit. And then when I had the opportunity to experience things outside of Detroit, it made me appreciate what was great about Detroit for me, but it also made me appreciate what was great about things that were outside of Detroit. And it created this kind of curiosity and this interest in culture, people and just different experiences. So my junior year of Michigan, I went to California for the first time to visit one of my friends who was doing an internship out there.
Sean Ferguson:
And when I went to California, it was such a striking experience. I got off the plane, and coming from the Midwest, I'm used to seeing black people and white people. And when I get to California, I was like, "Where are the black and white people at?" It was such a mosaic of different colors, cultures, and everything. And I used to want to be mayor of Detroit. Because I thought, "Hey, why would I ever leave Detroit?" And when I went to California and just saw that, I was like I think I need to see what's going on in the rest of the world.
Sean Ferguson:
And so beyond that, next thing I know, I moved to Georgia, and then I go to Rice, and then you start to become a little bit more self-aware. You're like, "Okay, I'm half Jamaican. My wife, her parents are from Trinidad. She was born in Canada." And so this kind of a snowballing of cultural experiences just continued to pique my curiosity. And I think that's what kind of put me on the global path. And so when I went to work at Rice and we had an opportunity to do something international, these kinds of
experiences were so transformational for me, bringing these to students in the program was something that I was super enthusiastic about.
David Droogleever:
Wow. Yeah. We need more of that, again, that broader view and the widening of the aperture in terms of cultural impact and how that integrates with business and of course vice versa. Can you zone in on Rice specifically? Of all the places you could've gotten your Master's in business administration, why Rice?
Sean Ferguson:
So my wife is from Houston, so that's kind of where the story starts. We went to Michigan together, and we were just trying to co-locate and get to the same place. And when I was considering business schools, I was thinking of all the big names, the top 10, top 20 schools. And then my wife, when thinking about building a dual career, it's kind of hard to find a location where two kind of upwardly mobile professionals can thrive. And she was like, "Well, have you ever thought about Rice?" And at that time, Rice wasn't accredited and it wasn't ranked, or anything like that. And so I was like, "No, I hadn't thought about Rice at all." But what was going on at that time was an amazing transformation. And so they had brought along Dean Gilbert Whitaker.
Sean Ferguson:
And if you know, I'm a Michigan man, and Dean Whittaker was the Dean who put Michigan's business school on the map. And so I was like, "Oh, that sounds interesting." And then when I looked at the data, the data on salaries and things of that nature, the school salaries were top 20, top 25. And so I was like, "Okay, so yeah, it's not accredited. It looks like there's an upward trajectory." I felt like it was still a young school at the time, maybe like 24-25 years old, and so I felt like it was something I could be a part of. Whereas if I went to some of the established schools, it was a situation where I just had to get on board, shut up and not break anything. And I think Rice was the perfect place to kind of be entrepreneurial.
Sean Ferguson:
I felt like they embraced this guy from Detroit who was talking and this or that. And so I thought it was a great place for me. And they made me feel welcome from day one. And that was really the... Also there was this other great fact. I remember looking in this Princeton Review book, and it had all the business schools, and Rice had the most hours of study per day. And I thought, "It's got to legit. If it's not rough, it's not right." And that really kind of gave me some crediting as far as the rigor.
Sean Ferguson:
And so I thought the rigor was right, the people were right, and I felt like Houston was an emerging city at that time. And it might not have been the highest ranked school I could go to, but I felt like if you really did a needs analysis of what I needed at that point in my career, wife, family school, everything, it was the perfect fit. And it was the absolutely best decision I could've ever made. And sometimes you don't know that when you're making these decisions, but looking back 20 years later, it was such a slam dunk, no brainer, home run, grand slam.
David Droogleever:
Wow. I like to think that, and this is sort of my quick tip for current and prospective students, is the networking at Rice is absolutely phenomenal. And it's the thing that, to me, stood out the most and made the most impact for me during school and afterwards. I mean, I still have some of my peers calling from overseas, locally, and we've all kept in touch.
Sean Ferguson:
This is so underrated about Rice. As small as we are, as young as we are, everywhere I go, I find a Jones schooler who's putting it down, making an impact in their respective part of the world. And so I think that's also a tribute to the school and the network. We don't have 90,000 alums like Harvard, but what I always would tell you guys when I was a student is that the intensity of the relationships and the connectivity between the school is second to none.
David Droogleever:
Well, you're not giving yourself enough credit, so I'll do it for you. I mean, under your leadership, that was embedded into the DNA. Let's get to sort of what you're up to these days. I think it's really, really interesting. And I mean, I know there's a lot to pack. You've gone over to Asia. You're at Hong Kong University as the assistant Dean, and now at the Asia School of Business. So, what precipitated that shift to leave the US and then go and pursue being in leadership positions, in higher education, over in Asia and Southeast Asia? Can you help us get a little context on your decision methodology there?
Sean Ferguson:
Yeah. So, I have this session that I give for students that talks about you have to be engaged, contribute and things of that nature to the profession that you're in. And if you do that, good things will happen. And it was funny. It was 2012, Michigan and Alabama, and everything I say is a sports analogy. So since I'm talking to an American, they can relate to this. But Michigan and Alabama were playing at Dallas at Jerry Dome, and we got killed. And then the next morning I get this email from a search firm, Korn Ferry, and they're like, "Would you be interested in considering our associate Dean role in Hong Kong?" And I was like, "Wow, this is interesting." And funny how life foreshadows. A year before, I took a group of students to Hong Kong and we had a fantastic time, and it happened to be my 10 year anniversary.
Sean Ferguson:
So I took my wife on that particular trip with me. And we were like, "Oh man, if we ever could live in Hong Kong, we would totally do it." And then the next year, someone reached out to me about working in Hong Kong. And what was really funny about that experience is that a year before that, I did a presentation with the person in that role. I was talking about how Rice's upward trajectory as an American school. And he was talking about HKUST, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology's, upward trajectory. And so I knew all this stuff about this business school. And so when the search firm reached out to me, they were blown away by what I knew about this business school, Hong Kong and all those different aspects. And at the time, it's hard because for most of my professional career, I've been Mr. Rice.
Sean Ferguson:
And so to leave Rice, that was a big decision. And then as we got over there, I felt the kind of impact that I was having. And we both, as a professional, everything that we did over there was a little bit interesting because it was so much on the frontier. So we're bringing management education to Asia and we're adapting it for the needs of this part of the world. And that was super exciting. And then
when this opportunity came up with MIT Sloan and the Central Bank of Malaysia to be a part of Asia School of Business, I thought, "Man, this is something where I can have even more impact from the early stage, bring some of that energy that I tried to bring to Rice and HKUST. Imagine the effect if you're there at year one or two, as opposed to year 20 or more."
Sean Ferguson:
And so that's been great. And it's been a tremendous experience because this business doesn't pay that much, but the social capital that I've been able to build, whether it's Rice, HKUST, ASB, has really been transformational for me. And I kind of see now my thing is just I'm trying to connect talent with opportunity, bring in management education to the emerging world to really have the most impact.
David Droogleever:
So I think there's two things that are going through my head right now. One is sort of a compare and contrast between the three different programs that you've been deeply embedded into. And then the second thing is, what does that future sort of look like in terms of how you're structuring things? Because where you are right now, as you said, there's sort of a startup-ish energy, where you get to shape things and create some impact. So I'll take the first one first, if you don't mind. And between those three different programs, you have Rice Business, HKUST and then Asia School of Business, could you give a sense of maybe the differences in terms of the culture and the charter of each of the different universities, and who would go, and what they would expect to get out of each?
Sean Ferguson:
So I think American business schools have really nailed this mid-professional career development that you get in the MBA. And I think Rice is a fantastic place, particularly in Houston, one of the most diverse cities in the world, with the most Fortune 500 companies. So the canvas is amazing there. And one of the things that I didn't appreciate when I went to Rice was that there were other schools that are ranked high, but they weren't in big dynamic cities like Houston. And so I think it's kind of shaped my view of what a transformational MBA experience would be like. You take that to Hong Kong. The one thing that's different about HKUST and ASB, in the US more of the student body is American. At international business schools, it's the reverse.
Sean Ferguson:
So at HKUST, only 5% of the students were from Hong Kong and maybe 30% were from China. The rest were all from all over the world. At ASB, they're only 30% Malaysian and the rest are from all over the world. So the American influence isn't so strong. ASB and HKUST, when they were deciding the kind of spirit and model they had, they're both heavily American influenced. So most of the faculty come from American business schools and things of that nature. And so I think that's how they're similar. But I think Hong Kong is kind of like a New York. Kuala Lumpur is kind of like Asia's Houston.
Sean Ferguson:
It's that underrated city that people don't always think about, but there's so much hidden value there. And there's so many hidden gems. The cost of living is cheap. The sprawl is terrible, just like in Houston. But the opportunity is here. And in KL, it's kind of underrated because from a development standpoint, I would say it's closer to say a Singapore and Hong Kong than it is to say a Jakarta or Manila. So there's this business potential here that's kind of undercover. They're all different, and they all have their own little spirit, but I think they're world-class in their own ways.
David Droogleever:
Perfect answer. I know that was a loaded question, and of course you gracefully cruised through it. Assuming you have a good view of the next couple of years, and then there's of course COVID kind of sending things off the rails, so maybe that's a better question. In terms of your efforts at ASB right now, and I'm sure you have a multi-year strategy of where you want to take the program, and then layer on the pandemic, which has affected everyone and created an immense amount of uncertainty, whether it's business, higher education, families, everything in between. So can you give us a sense of what the future looks like for you with your efforts at ASB and how COVID has affected that plan, both for the administration as well as the students and the programs that you're helping to shape?
Sean Ferguson:
What I would say is that it's not going to go back to the way it was. And I would say six months ago, we were thinking like, "Well, when this thing settles down," but it's not so clear that this thing is going to settle down. Even if there's a vaccine or things of that nature, we're going through spikes. Malaysia has done a great job of managing it. We were down in the single digits just two months ago, and now we're back up to 500 cases per day. And what happens is people are getting fatigued with it. And so it's something that I think we have to live with. And I think as a school, what we're talking about is, how do we change our education model now that borders are closed in so much of the world?
Sean Ferguson:
Our educational experience was really built around action learning. We do it every semester at ASB. And the projects would take place in Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia. We have projects as far as Saudi Arabia. And that was a super huge selling point for our applicants. And so now we can't do that. So now I think what we're coming to reality is, how do you deliver that kind of intense, emotional experience? We might not be able to guarantee the exact same thing because of this new pandemic-oriented world or the acceleration of technology, or the economic cycles. And so that's kind of how we're thinking about it.
David Droogleever:
Yeah. That was a good one. I know that was a heavy-handed one to toss your way. Now that we have the COVID answer and a sense of where you are right now and things globally, segues nicely to the other global impact, especially of course in America where now... I mean, diversity and inclusion in the last couple of decades has always been a big topic. I know in the companies that I've been at, there's a big focus on employee research, resource groups. Of course, at Rice Business, we had various groups that would get together and amplify diversity and inclusion. And so I feel like in progressive companies and business schools that have their head on straight, this is a big focus.
David Droogleever:
And with you being very highly cultured, of course being abroad, what is your view in terms of how schools, especially overseas, are bringing in this topic of diversity and inclusion into the program, and how they might maybe have a framework as they go out into the world and make that relevant to whatever organization that they're part of? What does that look like for the programs that you've been part of and how do you make diversity and inclusion relevant for the students during the program and as they go out to the world?
Sean Ferguson:
So I think Rice graduates, especially those who participated in action learning, can appreciate the taking of theory and putting it into practice and working in cross-cultural settings where you can develop a cross-cultural savvy. And I think what we try to do here with our action learning, so there's one part of, okay, we're going to teach you ops management, or we're going to teach you market research. But then to put that in a different cultural context through action learning. We had a group that was doing a market research project for a large CPG company in Myanmar for detergent. And they're trying to do digital surveys and things of that nature. And there's no solution except to get on the ground and pound the pavement. And they're lugging detergent up these narrow stairs and talking to people and translating folks, translating the survey verbally, and seeing the conditions that people are living in and getting a sense of what's really going on.
Sean Ferguson:
And so these kinds of experiences are not just about teaching people operations management in a practical setting, but that cross-cultural engagement and sophistication that you get from, one semester you're doing a project in Malaysia. The next semester, you're doing a project in Indonesia. The next semester, you're doing a project in Myanmar. You're not going to be an expert in Indonesian culture just based on that one project or Myanmar just based on that one project. But by being in so many of these different situations, and then being in Malaysia, which not sure how many people are familiar, but Malaysia is kind of a fusion of all the big cultures of Asia. We call it Malaysia, the real Asia, here. So Chinese, Indian, indigenous Southeast, East Asians, Malays form the population here. So there's kind of a triumvirate of people.
Sean Ferguson:
And so between these experiences, I think our students develop this heightened sophistication and savvy when it comes to cross-cultural interaction. And for me as an African-American, sometimes so much of what's going on in diversity and inclusion is geared from the lens of how Americans view diversity and inclusion. And so I think it's helped make me, even though I think I'm pretty well cultured and exposed, it's helped me check some of my biases or seeing from the outside experiences that maybe I couldn't see from the outside when I was in the US. And so I think our students benefit tremendously from this kind of experience.
David Droogleever:
Super insightful answer on a loaded topic. So in the spirit of Owl Have You Know, you've been pretty good with flushing out all your various efforts and putting a lot of detail on your LinkedIn and being super open and transparent. Is there sort of a little known fact that you'd like to impart to the audience, in an "I'll have you know" format that you haven't shared with us already?
Sean Ferguson:
In high school, I was in junior ROTC at Renaissance High School. It's the best high school in the city of Detroit. And I was in the junior ROTC program. I was doing my thing, just being a good cadet and that kind of thing. And through a series of different events, we had had this history of our school was the top magnet school in the city, like a Bel Air or something like that in Houston. And there were all these people who were, we had a tradition of having Corps commanders come from our high school, and there was this line of people in front of me who were supposed to be the Corps commander or that kind of thing. And I went and I became the Corps commander for the city of Detroit ROTC programs.
Sean Ferguson:
And so I got this saber and this award. And even though it's in high school, and there's a lot of things I think I've done well, but it's those little moments that kind of catalyze something early in your life that really help put you on a path. So at the military ball, I go through this ceremony and everything. And it was great. And I reflect on this because two years earlier, or maybe three years earlier when I was a freshmen, I had asked this girl to go with me to the military ball. And she said yes.
Sean Ferguson:
And then I guess a senior asked her to go to prom. So she couldn't get two dresses, so she told me she couldn't go to the military ball. So I had to stick it by myself. And my mom drove me to the military ball. I'm going stag. And Hugh, my brother, at this time, he's super young. He was like, "Look Sean, there's another dude without a girl going in there." And so however many years later at graduation to be the Corps commander, sometimes you just never know what life is foreshadowing for you. That's why I'm always positive. And I always think it's always darkness before the dawn.
David Droogleever:
Well, that's a very salient message, especially with, as you alluded to, this seemingly perennial ongoing pandemic that, as you said, is fatiguing everyone. So I think that's an appropriate mantra for this time. Sean, thank you so much. And I really appreciate your time. Any final pearls of wisdom to impart to the Rice Business alumni community, which is likely the vast majority of the folks listening, as well as prospective and current students, that perhaps you might've wanted to know at any of those stages of the business and educational life cycle?
Sean Ferguson:
I think the thing I always tell people, and this is what I told you guys, but whatever you do, rep hard and give it your A game at whatever you do. And you'll be fine in life. And Rice is a great place for you to kind of cultivate that energy and that rep hard spirit.
David Droogleever:
The rep hard spirit, I love it. Dr. Sean Ferguson, thank you so much. This was a pleasure. And we will chat soon.
Sean Ferguson:
Take care, man. Thanks for the opportunity, Dave and the alumni community.
David Droogleever:
Take care. Bye.
Christine Dobbyn:
This has been Owl Have You Know. Thanks for listening. You can find links and more information about our guests, hosts and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And leave us a comment while you're at it and let us know what you think. Owl Have You Know is a production of Rice Business and is sponsored by the Rice Business Alumni Board. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Christine Dobbyn, and David Droogleever.