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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Hey, pmms.
So I want to start with
a situation that I can
guarantee most of you
listeners have lived through.
So it goes
something like this.
You open Slack and
there's a message from a
salesperson and it says,
Hey, do we have a battle
card for this competitor?
And you don't because it's
like the 50th one you've heard
of just this year, and I can
guarantee that you already
know what I'm about to say.
If you are feeling like your
competitive intelligence
program is failing, it's
not failing because we
don't work hard enough.
It's failing because
the problem here is
infinite and scale becomes
your real challenge.
So today we're talking
all about how to build the
foundation of your competitive
intelligence program, as
in how to stop reacting to
competitors one by one, and
instead building a system
that gives your company a
real market point of view.
And I could not think
of a better person
to talk about this.
With you guys, it is
my pleasure to welcome
Mindy Renell to the show.
Mindy is literally
an award-winning
product marketer.
Her win-loss program uh,
took home the 2025 win-loss
program of the year from
Product Marketing Alliance,
and she spent almost a
decade deep in the market
and competitive intelligence,
uh, space, helping companies
understand not just who
they compete with, but
why customers choose.
And fun fact, she's also
an award-winning quilter,
taking home prizes from the
Washington State Fair and the
largest quilt show in Western.
Washington, which honestly
feels so on brand because
great competitive intelligence
is basically pattern
recognition at scale.
Mindy, it's amazing to
have you on the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm so excited to be here
I, and I relate, I can't
tell you how many times
I get that, that slack
message of like, Hey, have
you heard of X competitor?
And I'm like, I,
don't know.
Twice in the last two years.
yeah.
Or maybe not at all.
And they're just popping
up constantly, especially
with like how quickly
things are scaling in our
society today with ai.
I feel like new companies
are just popping up out
of nowhere all the time.
so let's dive in and
let's give some context
to our listeners.
you come from Klaviyo.
Tell us a little bit
about Klaviyo and what
your role is there.
Yeah, so Klaviyo is,
um, best known as a
CRM for B2C businesses.
we're, uh, building the
autonomous CRM, which
is basically allowing
marketers to, really
scale their efforts.
Um, but it's, generally
otherwise described as like
marketing automation software.
and so I run our market and
competitive intelligence
program at Klaviyo.
I've been here
about two years.
Um, but I've been in
e-commerce as an industry for.
Probably longer than
I'd care to admit.
15, almost 20 years.
Um, and I've been
doing CI for, as you
said, almost a decade.
Yeah, so especially given the
space that Klaviyo is in and
your particular, focus and
expertise, I feel like it is
especially good that you are
the one who's leading this
conversation with us today.
and yeah, I feel like Klaviyo
is one of those brands
that you've been seeing
for a while now, and unless
you're directly in that.
Space, you may not know
quite what they do.
So thank you for the context.
okay.
So the topic today is around
standing up a competitive
intelligence program,
which is obviously so
important, especially in
a really crowded market.
Uh, so let's start
with this case study
segment of our show.
so tell me what was going
on at Klaviyo when you
realized that something
needed to change or that
you needed to introduce
this, uh, competitive
intelligence program?
Yeah.
So I would say, Klaviyo
prior to my being there,
didn't have a competitive
intelligence program, so I
was brought on specifically
to stand up a, a CI program?
and so when I.
came in, it was pretty
apparent that we had
a lot of competitors.
I have this slide I use
internally to like, help
our folks understand
our market and it's just
a smattering of logos.
And I'm like, we have a lot
of competitors, like a lot,
this isn't even all of them.
Um, and so when you think
about, Understanding a
market, and getting sales
reps set up for success.
it's hard to, to solve for
every single competitor,
um, especially when
you have like multiple
product lines, multiple
geos, multiple segments.
And so that's very quickly
what I noticed when I
came into the space.
if you're within
marketing automation,
there are different
channels that you offer.
So there are email platforms,
SMS platforms, WhatsApp
platforms, you know, customer
data platforms review,
like the list is so long.
And so one of the first
things I tried doing was
even just getting a, a,
like a general sense of like
our, our top competitors.
And that proved to be
really, really hard.
so what I did was
I started to, um.
Think about a different
way to do this.
and so I kind of took
inspiration from a, um, a book
that I had read in college,
um, called The Long Tail.
Um, the Future of Business
is Selling Less Of
More by Chris Anderson.
And so the idea was, is
that in the nineties we all
listened to the same music.
and the reason for that
is it was constrained by
the limits of shelf space.
And so if there were only
room for 25 CDs and you,
you know, broke that down
across all the genres, it's
probably not surprising that
if you are into pop music,
you listen to probably the
same five or six artists.
and then if you consider
right, Amazon came into the
picture and all of a sudden
Amazon didn't have shelf space
and all of a sudden there
were so many more brands and
musicians that you could find.
Then you get to
streaming and now it's
like insanely infinite.
And so I saw parallels
in that book.
With kind of my market
and the idea of the book
is that those individual
niche brands or, you know,
niche products individually
don't add up to a lot.
But as a collective
whole, that long tail is
really, really impactful.
and so that's where I
get the name long tail
competitive framework from.
So what I started doing was
trying to figure out how do
I get competitors into kind
of, um, buckets or categories,
for lack of a better way
to describe it, so that we
could build a framework that
allows you to think about the
different types of competitors
that you see in the market.
And so it would allow me
to build a more scalable,
program, if not just to
account for what our reps,
in AMEA or APAC were seeing
because they were gonna
be far more likely to
run into smaller regional
players, um, that, you know.
I have like 300 customers, 500
customers, maybe a thousand.
you know, and Klaviyo
is far beyond that in
terms of size and scale.
So that's, that's
where we started.
And then, um, once I kind of
came up with that system, I,
um, you know, ran it through
some of our folks from a sales
leadership perspective really
got buy-in as like, Hey,
we're gonna do it this way.
we're gonna build this
framework, we're gonna train
people on the framework.
And you know what, our biggest
competitors, just like those
small regional players, all
fit into buckets and they
all fit into a category.
Um, and it'll actually make
it easier for me to go build
those tier one competitors.
And you know what, they're
probably gonna sound a
little similar because
if you build it right,
they pretty much are.
Um, and so that's one
of the things that I was
really excited about.
It makes it a lot easier
for reps when they get
onboarded, um, to one,
understand our space.
Because if you could imagine
throwing, um, a whole bunch
of new hires across different
geos, different segments.
Like all of those
different competitors,
it would be overwhelming.
So we really start by
training on the fundamentals.
reps feel a lot
more supported.
Um, and in particular, I,
I really made sure that I
was taking care of my reps
in that are gonna run into
less global competitors.
and so that really made a big
difference for us overall.
Yeah.
I love that.
Okay, so, uh, and just a quick
shout out because I hear so
often that things that we
took, classes that we took in
college or what we majored in
has nothing to do with, you
know, what field we're in.
Um, shout out to the professor
who introduced that book
to you and was such an
inspiration.
I, it must have been, I'm
an an economics major.
and I think there's a
lot of econ eComm people
is like a running joke.
I know several of them.
And so, um, Yeah, it was
just like one of those
books I remember reading.
Um, and thinking, wow, this
was like really interesting.
And I, I love that it stuck
with me all this time.
Yeah, the fundamental of it
and the way that it shaped
your thinking so that now
as you're, as you approach
competitive intelligence,
you're not answering the
question of who is this
competitor and how do
I compete against them?
Instead, you're looking at
it from the perspective of,
okay, like how can I, create
these, you know, categories
as you said, that will help
me figure out the best way
to compete against them.
So it's, you're kind
of shifting your
mind a little bit.
So I guess with that in
mind, talk a little bit
more about what you did
To build these categories
and, what that looked like.
And, um, maybe even, it
would be best if we did
this through, creating
a playbook, right?
And so in every episode we
take your beautiful case story
and turn it into a playbook.
So let's jump into that and
then hopefully it can help
provide some color from,
what you've built at Klaviyo
as we build out what this
playbook could look like.
So let's say that, I'm a PMM
who's like trying to build
a competitive intelligence
program from scratch.
what do I do?
What is step one?
Yeah.
So step one, when you're
trying to figure out how
to understand yourself and
the market, is to really
start by actually just
understanding yourself.
So, with all companies,
there's really
something that makes you
fundamentally different.
Now, is this easy to
figure out sometimes.
No.
but you really have to
like start to understand
yourself, your competitors,
and you kind of dig into
it and you get a sense.
Um, so once you have a
general idea of what makes
you pretty unique, you
can then, kind of start
to look at everybody else.
But it, can't happen
without having a true,
deep understanding of
your platform and really
what makes you different.
And there will be people
that feel close-ish, but
like you really gotta
focus and really hit home.
What makes you super,
super different.
Let's double click
on that for a minute.
and I'm sure many of us
have read April Dun Ford's
book and about positioning,
and many times I feel like
through LinkedIn at product
marketing events in Reddit
forums, I've constantly seen
this discussion of I'm not
different or I can't find
my differentiator any quick.
Tips or suggestions?
Um, maybe how have you
done it in your career?
How do you find how you
are truly different?
Yeah.
So I.
would say sometimes the,
the ways to think about
what makes you different,
is, uh, I definitely start
by having conversations
with folks internally.
talk to some of your sales
engineers, talk to other
folks on the product marketing
team, what are the things that
generally stand out about you.
You can also then start
referencing kind of like your
top competitors in the space
and have an idea of like,
okay, is this different?
Can I make this statement
about somebody else?
Um, and so when you really
start to double click down
into like the nuances of
what makes you different,
it can be really impactful.
So I remember at a
previous company, um, that
I was at in the e-com.
Our space.
what made them really
different was kind of like
writing the intersection of
like a software as a service
SaaS platform and kind of
an open source platform.
So they kind of took a very
open source mentality while
still being a SaaS platform.
and yeah,
there was like one other
company out there that
kind of probably tried
to describe themselves in
a very similar fashion.
but it was, it
was pretty unique.
and it really stemmed
from really understanding
like the history of
e-commerce platforms.
Um, so if you go back and
you look at e-commerce
platforms, like early on
open source platforms,
were kind of like your
magentos, your open carts,
platforms where you need a
developer to go build it.
And the thing about an open
source platform is you've
got full access to that root
underlying code and you can
pretty much do anything.
Um, which is both the
most amazing part of it.
And the worst part about it
is dealing with whatever it is
you just did, because you can.
Gut the engine of your
car, and then wonder why
it doesn't work later.
Right?
But you could build an
insanely fast car at the
same time because you
have access to everything.
And then if you compare
that to when SaaS platforms
came about long before
they had open APIs, which
led to App Marketplace,
it was a closed system.
It either did it or it didn't.
So as SaaS platforms evolved,
you started to see APIs,
you started to see app
marketplaces, but that didn't
mean that you necessarily had
full access to everything.
And so the company I remember
at the time was starting
to really unlock our parts
of the platform that no
other SaaS platform did.
And so that was like a really.
Interesting spot to
really hone in on
that differentiation.
I think I kind of
stumbled into pieces of
this framework back then
without even realizing that
that's what I had done.
I just kind of was like, well,
you asked me about a small
open source platform that
I've never run into before.
They're pretty similar
to this other competitor.
Just go use those
same talking points.
I think most pmms and
CI people have probably
done that before.
Um, but my challenge is that
if you can do that at the very
intersection of everything
and start there, you can
then, build on top of it.
But it is, it is genuinely
like pretty hard.
sometimes you might even have
to have like conversations
with like executives to be
like, cool, you built this.
Like, what made this
special when you started
and like, might disagree,
or maybe not as, as
different as it once was.
I would be shocked if a
product marketer told me
that's never happened before.
Um, but I think that can
be like a really good
place to kind of get
like the origin stories.
I remember working on a
project at one point and like
finding out the origin stories
of all of our competitors to
like validate a, a narrative.
and now I.
know a lot of weird
facts about a lot of
different companies in
the e-commerce space.
Oh, the stories you hear.
so what you're saying and like
basically what you described
with the open source company
example, and then, and I
don't wanna get too much into
obviously our playbook and
your framework, which is so
valuable, but, and this is
a somewhat of a call out to
our conversation that we were
having before this recording,
but, one way that I've always
found my differentiator,
which to your point is like
you start within, right?
Like.
Yes, this will absolutely
relate to positioning in your
market and your competitors.
But I've always created,
and there, this wasn't, I
don't know if this is like
a legit framework or not.
This is just how I
did it because that's
how my brain works.
But I would make like a
table and I would put in
like each column would
be something different.
So it'd be the first column
would be, okay, here's the
customer, this is the, then
the next column would be like,
this is the pain that they're
experiencing or the problem
they're trying to solve.
This is how they're
currently attempting
to solve the problem.
Like the alternative, right?
This is, yeah, this is
I, I've done this one before.
Yeah.
Right.
And then it's like, this
is what we are doing.
To try to solve their problem.
This is how we're doing it.
And this is to your point of
like talking to engineers,
talking to sales engineers,
talking to like people who
are technical, who, who
built it, asking them how
does it work, and having
a very strong technical
understanding of that so
that you can articulate.
Okay, and why is the way
that we are building it, why
does that matter in terms
of why it's better, like
better than the alternative.
Then you do that
same exercise.
That's what I did anyway
for competitors and now I'm,
I did it one by one, like,
oh so many competitors.
So painful, which was so
like Mindy, where were you
in my life when I needed you?
But anyway, what I did
was basically the same
exercise as if I worked
for the competitor.
Now obviously I can't
interview the competitor's
engineer, but I can make
some assumptions based
on whatever content I
can find on the internet.
So anyway, so that was how I
would find our differentiator.
It's very painstaking and
I'm sure there's like better,
stronger ways to do that,
especially now with ai.
'cause I haven't done
something like this
in quite a while.
So we took a long time
to talk about step one.
I'm eager to
step one and, and, uh,
and step two and three
are like the hardest three
steps, and then it all kind
of builds on top of it.
So
Totally.
Yeah.
Okay.
So step one, like get your
differentiation, own it.
Like, so let's say
I've done that.
Now I understand
my differentiation.
Now what do I do with it?
Cool.
So step two is exactly
what you just described.
Understand the pain
caused by your different
types of competitors.
Now you can kind of do this
at the same time as step
three, which is starting to
understand like categories
and finding your patterns.
But as you think about some
of your different competitors,
you might think, wow, those
two are really similar, right?
But it?
to find out what's painful
about them, you really
should think about it in
the context of yourself.
so if you start by thinking
about, kind of some of those
different examples of, of
where you've got Paine.
Let's Go back to that
example we were talking
about earlier, right?
Open source platforms.
The pain of that is that
you have to maintain
whatever customization
you built, right?
That means all those
security patches, all those
updates, all of those things
that you have to manage.
Wow, that's a lot, right?
The, and that takes up a
lot of engineering effort.
It takes up a lot of time.
It's really hard to do.
the root pain of other SaaS
platforms is that you're
limited to either what's
in their app marketplace
or what they have APIs for.
So you're not really
getting that flexibility
that you might have
with other platforms.
So you've kind of got
two clear categories.
Um, now what happened at
one point, which kind of.
I think the company I
worked at was really
at the intersection
of, is there, became a
third type of e-commerce
platform, and that's
called headless commerce.
Um, which is basically
where you're buying just
the APIs, so you're kind
of decoupling the front
end of your e-commerce
system from your backend.
So you could use, basically
any front end system,
WordPress, aquia, Adobe
Experience Manager, and
pretty much any e-commerce
platform as long as they
were headless, um, and had
the APIs to support it.
So that kind of became
a third category.
and so really understanding
like the root pain
of that really became
down to like, okay.
It's weird because you
could be an open source
platform or a SaaS platform
and you could be headless.
So you almost had to think
about headless as like a
choice that a customer made,
um, so that you could then
think about like, okay,
what is the root ping?
Do you have the documentation?
How easy is your frameworks?
Do you have starter kits?
and so you could start
to think about all of
those, pretty differently.
and so.
Sometimes the way I found
it easiest is to look at
maybe different segments of
the market and understand
if there are different pain
points for some of those.
So, a really common example,
'cause I think everybody
loves to, to give Salesforce
a hard time, right?
Um, it's, uh, in a category
of competitors I've called
an acquisition Franken stack,
which is exactly what it.
sounds like.
Um, it is a series of
AC acquisitions that are
cobbled together that kind
of works like a Frankenstein.
and those have, those
exist in any space, in
I, I was gonna say, I can
think of so many companies
like that in other spaces, so
I know exactly what you mean.
And, and the problem with
those sorts of platforms
is you realize that.
They don't actually, they're
not on the same architecture
or underlying infrastructure,
so they don't actually
really work together as
well as you think they do.
So that can be one category
of competitor and kind of give
you like a starting point.
Sometimes you might have
competitors that are
just really simple and
they only do one thing.
so those kind of give you
places to start to look for
those patterns and start
thinking about how to put
people into categories.
Now, if you have a competitor
that, let's say, you could
argue as maybe a competitor,
but they're going after like
a different segment of the
market or, you like, Klaviyo
is focused on B two B2C
customers and B2C brands,
I don't really try to over
index on brands that are
specifically solving for B2B.
Now, if they're trying
to solve for both.
You're fair game.
but I try to avoid getting
hung up on the edge cases.
And so that's a
really important step.
As you're starting to
think about those patterns,
you wanna make sure
that you're solving for
your main competitors.
and you might eventually
find that if you have a
category of competitors,
you can even break it down
like a little bit further
and you could start creating
like subcategories or sub
flavors where maybe there's
like a different feel for
a particular vertical, like
hospitality and restaurants.
you know, you could have a, a
flavor of restaurants feeling
a little bit different than,
you know, um, hotel chains
or things of that nature, but
they might fall into like that
same overarching category.
Start with those
big categories.
Worry about solving
for some of those like
nuanced use cases later.
and so.
Sometimes when you add like
a new product line, it may
not even fit into your like,
existing framework and you
might have to build like a new
one because it's so different.
But it still gives you like
a very repeatable thing
and it's so much easier.
I know we all love like
working in numbers of
like three, two to three.
I would say if you could try
to keep it under five, um, for
like your primary category,
you'll be in a better spot.
Um, and then start worrying
about like sub flavors later.
Yeah.
Okay.
You just gave us so
much good information.
So I wanna start with
what I heard you say, the
first bit of that around
pains, and there's so many
different kinds of pains
here, so I just wanna clarify
things that I'm hearing.
So first you find, first you
look at the customer's pain.
Just with the, with what your
solution then alleviates.
And that's not necessarily
having much to do
about their competitor.
That's your own the customer's
pain and you solve it.
Right?
There's that kind of pain
and then there's the kind
of pain that's established
with the going with the
competitor solution.
'cause no solution is perfect.
There's always
something that's like,
ah, I hate don't like
There's trade
what, there's trade offs.
Totally.
A hundred percent.
Yes.
Exactly.
So then, which I really
like that aspect of it, of
looking, um, just as you're
kind of building out those
categories you mentioned.
To, think about them
in terms of like what
those trade offs are.
And that's a very, that's also
a very non-biased way of doing
competitive or setting up
your competitive intelligence
too, because it's, you're
truly walking through the
customer's shoes and like,
this is what the life would
be like for a customer
to use this competitor.
They would have these
pros and these, these
trade-offs, these pains.
so, uh, from there, is step
three then creating the
categories or, or what would
step three then be from
Yeah.
So, uh, for step three.
when you're starting to think
about the categories, you're
really starting to find that
root underlying pain of your
competitor and starting to
kind of cluster them together.
So these competitors have
this root pain and they
kind of all belong together.
Some part of the step three
that can be a little tricky
sometimes is like, you could
do it based off of, you know,
the way the platform is built.
You could do it based off of,
If you were to think about
this, let's say like for
example, with cars, right?
And you were gonna categorize
different types of cars.
I'm gonna preface this
by saying I'm a quilter.
I am not a car person.
I know very little about cars.
So if you were to ask me to
group cars together, you'd end
up with some weird, weird ways
of lumping to cars together.
Are all red cars the same?
Probably not, right?
Foreign versus domestic,
that might be useful.
I'd probably say like
automatic versus stick
is probably a more useful
description, right?
So you start to kind of walk
through those potential ways
that you can lump it together.
But when you think about
that root underlying pain,
if you can really get it to
be grounded in something that
they're just not going to
change and they're not going
to give up because it's core
to who they are, your model
will last a little bit longer.
Now there's the chance that
a competitor could like
shift from one category
to another because they've
made fundamental changes to
who they are as a platform.
But that category should still
stand up, um, because it's
just one competitor kind of
moving and shifting around.
so that's kind of how I think
about like breaking it down.
I write it down on
a piece of paper.
I'd probably got check
it with a couple people
that I know that like.
Are more on like the product
marketing side or like the
sales side, because those
categories have to make sense.
I can't just pick an
arbitrary, um, something
so insanely technical
that somebody who's brand
new would not understand.
Like if I based it on
like data architecture and
infrastructure and I tried
to say modern versus legacy,
what does that even mean?
Right?
Those categories
should make some
hate that comparison.
It's terrible.
Yeah.
You're like, what is modern?
Like, I.
need you to define that.
So, and by partially just not.
Putting yourself, you don't,
you might feel really similar
to one of those categories,
by the way, and that's
gonna be the hardest one.
But one of those is gonna
be those competitors that
kind of feel the most like
you to the point of, you
know, pmms everywhere,
feeling like they don't
have strong differentiation.
Um, you might have to
narrative your way around
that a little bit and find
the angle that you take to
say like, yes, you might think
I fit into this category,
but here's a little bit of
what makes us different.
And so I think as you, um,
start to get those categories
together, you start to kind of
like bleed a little bit into
step four, which is starting
to like pressure, test it,
check with other people.
Does it make intuitive sense?
I would start with
people that are probably
like a little bit more.
Familiar with your platform
first, like a sales engineer
or, um, somebody else on your
product marketing team, just
to like gut check that, that
like logically makes sense.
And then you move on to
like step four pressure
test it with people that are
brand new to the company.
Um, my favorite go-to
brand new BDR or SDR
who's like week three,
probably also like junior
and career most likely.
So they're the really
the best person to test,
to pressure test with.
Okay.
Quick question before we
move on to pressure testing,
which I guess the, I don't
know if there's anything more
to that story, but, I love
the categorization aspect
of it, and you're talking
about pattern recognition,
which, so just funny, fun
connection with quilting
and pattern recognition.
Shout out to that.
but,
question about when you
start to look at competitors
and you're putting them
into categories, obviously
the whole point of this is
so that you don't have to
look at every competitor.
So how many competitors do you
recommend looking at to make
sure you have a good sense of
what the categories look like?
So I would say, if you start
thinking about as you're doing
this exercise, you'll probably
get a pretty good sense of
who your tier ones are, right?
Your biggest, most
important competitors
that come up all the time.
You definitely wanna
make sure those guys fit.
And then I would say going
down to like, your tier
twos, the one that, you
know, reps are gonna ask
you enough about that, like
you'd probably consider
building a battle card for.
Um, And so I think those are
probably where I would start.
and then, you know, if you
need to find, different
flavors or different
things as you kind of
grow and evolve, it's.
easier to do that later,
but probably testing with
like one or two, like
randos, um, is probably a, a
pretty good like gut check.
what I do as I get a little
bit further down into this
process is start to make
it so that it's got clear
criteria so that I can
write in a framework battle
card, like, Hey, did you
just run into somebody that
you've never seen before?
Here are the steps I would
take to figure out what
category they should go into.
Um, and so if you think
of it as a repeatable,
scalable framework,
it can go really far.
I got really good at, at,
I mean, I can do it here
at Klaviyo, but I've gotten
really good at doing it at
other companies too, where
give me five minutes and I
can tell you like roughly
what type of competitor
they are and if you can
do that and you know, like
the root underlying pain
of that type of competitor,
then you just tell them like
Hey, use this framework.
and then they immediately have
something to, to go off of.
Yeah.
okay.
So step three is the category.
Step four is pressure test.
once it's pressure tested,
obviously you'll iterate as
needed, pending the results
of the pressure test.
Um, what happens after that?
so I would say that's where
you wanna start to get buy-in.
definitely run it by your,
your leadership and your
sales leadership in particular
so that they have an
understanding of how to do it.
Now you're gonna wanna really
make sure you put a little
bit of positive spin on it.
I would say, if you have
regional sales managers, and
regional sales teams that are
going to have the most one-off
players, and competitors,
position it for them.
Right.
We're doing this so that your
team will be well covered
because I know your team
is specifically going to
run into the most region.
They're not gonna be random.
Right.
You know, they're going
to be there, but they're
going to be small.
And my team is small, and
so I'm not gonna be able to
build you a battle card for
every small regional player.
Right.
and when you position it
to them like that, it makes
them feel more comfortable
and more supported for
your global sales team.
Right.
In most cases, I
would say that's like
your US based sales.
Wherever your company
is headquarters, those
sales reps and those sales
managers are probably gonna
be the ones that inherently
like, get the most love.
'cause that's your
primary market and where
you get things going.
they rarely are gonna feel
the same pressure as those
other teams for them.
I would position it almost
more as, Hey, this is going
to be a repeatable framework.
It's gonna make it easier
for your reps to apply
the knowledge that they
have on competitor A to
competitor B, because they
fall into the same category.
So as they get really
good at one competitor and
they start running into
other co competitors in
that same category, that
confidence carries over
and it's almost like the
good kind of copy paste.
and so it'll help your reps
get up to speed faster, all
of those benefits and perks.
I think we don't
position enough of our
work internally, and I.
know this is like a
positioning exercise and
to think about positioning
your positioning work
feels a little meta.
but you should do it.
I think the best product
marketers and like competitive
intelligence professionals
are the ones that like
take the time to think
about each stakeholder.
Maybe a little
bit differently.
Um, and make sure that when
you're asking for something
or presenting something,
or presenting it in the
context of how it's going
to be the most useful, most
beneficial to them, which
feels maybe a little obvious.
Once you say it out
loud, you're like, Yes.
of course they're
gonna be more likely to
do something.
the Yeah.
Surprising the number
of people who don't
do that though.
I think it's because
nobody tells us.
somebody has to tell You
And then you're like, oh,
save for the light bulb.
Somebody will give you that
light bulb moment and you'll
be like, oh, I get it.
yeah.
So follow up when you do some
of those, have the, some of
those conversations with sales
to get buy-in and approval,
do you, I mean, I would.
I don't know if you've done
this or found it helpful,
but do you tell them,
Hey, like we did a quick
pressure test with like this
salesperson, this BDR, this
like, just as an anecdote
to show, I guess like some
early proof of concept for
I would say yes.
And then I would say also
like, does the categories
make sense to them?
Like, do they feel
right to that.
leadership group if they
feel like cons, you should,
worst case scenario, feel
like maybe the categorization
needs a little bit more
refinement and they feel
like they're generally
on board with the idea.
and they, but they maybe feel
like some of the categories
are a little confusing.
I've built, frameworks like
this more than once here.
And I think sometimes
it's just like you tweak
the wording a little
bit and you're like, ah.
Okay.
It makes sense to
leadership to like
adjust it just slightly
and as long as they're
good, everybody's good.
Um, and you start and
kind of work top down.
So it, it really helps
to, I would say like maybe
even preview with like.
Your, your senior most sales
person, like your, your chief
sales officer or your CMO
or whoever you need to get
to get like that ultimate
buy-in first and then get
them to let you present
to their leadership team.
Um, So that can be
another way to like
get your buy-in faster.
Um, and again, usually as long
as doing it in those smaller
groups, you'll, you'll get the
right feedback upfront, um,
and really be able to kind of,
work that all, um, together
and, and letting them know
that like, by you're doing
this work, you're going to get
everything else a lot faster
because it's foundational.
and I think foundational work
in product marketing, I know,
you know this to be true, is
so often overlooked because
there's just so many other
things going on, but it's,
it's like leg day at the gym.
not that I do leg
day at the gym.
I'm not really much of a
gym person, but my husband
tells me it's very useful.
Um, and that you, you thank
yourself later for having
good core fundamentals.
I, I wish I had a non gym
analogy, but, I'm thinking
of one of our, one of
our, enablement managers
literally runs a session
that's called Sales Gym.
And so that's like, the
thing that sticks in my
mind when I think about it
is like, his whole thing
is like, you're gonna do
good core fundamentals.
I really love that
analogy for salespeople.
I don't know why.
I don't know why it just fits.
It just, it's very,
it feels very on brand
It, it, it's, it's not like
that inherent competitive
nature that you would
expect from a sales.
team.
Right
yeah.
okay, so we've got buy-in.
I guess, what does that
look like then after
you get the buy-in?
Obviously now you have
your categories, so
now you
start building, so when
you get to the phase where
Yeah, so just like,
so when you start building,
you're, you're kind
of doing, two things.
One, you're building
out the battle cards
for your framework.
I actually have a template
that I just, a lot of
people in the, the CI
community probably know
me for at this point.
I have a long tail
battle card framework.
Um, so you kind of fill out
this framework, battle card.
Um, the framework battle
card helps you understand
like, what is that category
of competitor, why would
somebody choose it?
what are the core
characteristics?
How do you figure out
if somebody belongs
in this category?
Right.
Write your cheat
sheet of like, these
are the steps I take.
I go to their website, I
look for x. Um, sometimes
it could be something as
simple as like, is it a
technical solution or a
non-technical solution?
You could probably tell the
difference for our open source
and SaaS example earlier,
go read the support docs.
Is it marketer friendly?
No, it's probably in
this category, right?
Like there are very
easy, clear ways that
you can kind of make it
easy for somebody else.
Then you have like a
little section that's like
list all the competitors
that you know of that
fall into this category.
Every time somebody asks
you about a new competitor
and you do that five
minute exercise, this is
where you write it down.
could eventually build
like a Excel spreadsheet
cheat sheet of like,
here's every competitor.
Here's what battle card
you use, but have it
on the battle card.
It makes it a
little bit easier.
right?
Then you start writing out
like your key messaging.
Of why you're different
and better than that
type of competitor, the
key characteristics.
Then you can start throwing
in like your generalized
objection handling,
uh, discovery questions
based on that root pain.
And you've got a battle
card for that framework.
Then you can go build
your tier ones, right?
It's now you already
know a lot about that
root underlying pain.
You're probably gonna use
a different template, um,
because you're gonna go a lot
deeper and have a lot more
specifics on that competitor,
but you'll have a good, strong
idea of like probably why
you win, and maybe a pretty
good sense of why you lose
because of those trade-offs.
So doing the com, uh, the
category level battle cards
first gives you a little
bit of efficiency when then
you go to do the tier ones.
'cause you have a, a
pretty strong sense of
their approach already.
are you open to linking
your long tail framework
in the show notes for the
Yeah, I've got, I've actually
got a presentation deck.
'cause I've, I've done this
once at like a, in a small
group of ci people of like,
Hey, here's my framework.
if you enjoy a good meme,
making fun of ci, that's
like half the deck.
Um, I mean, if you can't
break out like Spider-Man
pointing at Spider-Man, when
you're trying to figure out
differentiation, I don't
even know what you're doing.
I'll, I'll give you the, the
template for that, uh, that
battle card in terms of like
that battle card framework.
it's, all written out in like
a, here's what you're going
to write in this section.
Uh, because I.
it's my excuse of staying
in touch with people
sometimes is like, I've
got templates for days.
You will find an excuse to
come back and talk to me.
I love it.
It's very generous of you.
Um, and I'm sure you're
gonna have, lots of you,
you're gonna have a full
inbox after people start
consuming some of that.
okay, so here we've done
the battle cards now.
so next step, I'm sure you,
you obviously have to do
some kind of like enablement
or roll up to sales.
So I'm jumping ahead a
little bit, but what does
that process look like then?
Yeah, so I would say that
process is generally,
um, one, you should
probably do like a good.
competitive enablement
for everybody just to
introduce the framework and
get them familiar with it.
also a really good
opportunity to to, to tell
salespeople, Hey, we've
built this framework.
Here's how, uh,
how, how it works.
You might even show
like visuals of like,
here's what Those?
competitors look like in
these categories globally
versus like in the EMEA
region versus apac.
Uh, you could even slice
it down by country and
say like, Hey, if you are
in, um, you know, Benelux,
you might see these.
If you're in France,
you might see these.
Um, so that you can make
it really easy for people
to see that like, oh, those
competitors look right.
That was a step I
missed.
I think the first I did
the training, I, I only
showed global, um, which
is silly 'cause the whole
reason I built it was for
my regional sales team.
And when I redid that same
slide, but with the Right.
competitors for them,
all of a sudden the
light bulbs went on.
Um, so don't.
Don't skip making sure that it
makes sense for the audience
that you're speaking to.
and then work on making
sure that it's built into
your onboarding right level
set with the whole company.
Make sure all your sales
reps, probably your CSMs
know this framework and then
make sure That it's part of
that onboarding process so
that rather than starting
folks off with like, Hey,
here's competitor number one.
'cause in most companies
that number one competitor's
probably gonna vary by
geo segment product line.
You teach
Yeah.
That is such an important
tip that you mentioned that I
could totally see myself like
missing, doing the enablement.
And so I think it's worth
repeating and making sure that
I understood it right and that
the listeners understand it.
Right?
So whenever you do enablement
to whichever audience,
whether it's a global
audience or you know,
regionally, or you know, by.
Use case or, or industry or
whatever, which we will get
to that in a minute too.
make sure that you give some
examples of like, that are
more unique to that audience.
So you can expect to see
these types of competitors
in these categories to give
them a frame of reference.
'cause it all goes back to
what you said just a few
minutes ago around context
for your stakeholders and
who you're talking to and
giving them that context.
Um, 'cause it makes them trust
you more and feel like you
understand them and they'll
wanna use your battle cards.
And
I.
have mine actually drawn
out on like a two by two
grid, kind of like Gartner
magic quadrant style.
Um, so one, if you're
ever gonna do a two by
two grid, the correct
answer is the happy spot
is always that upper, um,
that upper right corner.
So even if like sometimes
the orientation of like you
would think like hard to
easy, you'd put, you know,
easy to hard, you flip it.
So it's hard to easy
so that the happy spot
is in that upper right.
It just intrinsically
makes more sense to people.
Um, it, it's a great way to
explain things from an SLT.
And so I have all of those
logos on that two by two.
and so when I, have like
the little kind of like.
Just buckets around those
different categories.
I have a global view and
then a, a regional view.
And I'll show both
oftentimes in a training.
So I'm like, Hey, when
you look at the landscape
from a global view,
it looks like this.
And then if you've got
your, like your EMEA sales
team and you say, Hey,
here's what it looks like
for emea, same framework,
different competitors,
and it still works.
And they get to see
that like aha moment.
Um, I really wish I
had thought of doing
that like first round.
Um, but I remember, I think
I was getting ready to do a
specific dedicated training
with my MEA sales team.
And um, I think I was
talking to somebody and
they were like, yeah.
but I don't like you
don't have the right
competitors on that chart.
And I was like, they're like,
your framework doesn't work.
And I was like,
oh no, it does.
And then I realized
that I just needed to
show the right logos.
And so I actually started by.
Adding in the right ones
and then removing the
ones that didn't matter.
'cause there were a couple
like global competitors
that might show up in
two out of three regions
but not the third.
Um, and so you just make
sure if you're showing
the chart to your third
region, you just remove it.
Um, and this has kind
of become like a, a well
adopted like framework.
my, one of my coworkers on
our product marketing team
who, uh, works on our segment,
uh, like go to market side of
the house, uh, was like, you
know, this was probably one
of the most valuable things
you did and you did it in
your first, like three months.
and so, um, that was kind
of wild to think about
that, like that, that was
one of the first things.
I'm still using it and it's
well over two years later
since I first built it.
I love that.
Kudos to you.
That's great.
Um, what a great one.
Almost first impression.
I mean, first three months
is still very early.
Um, okay.
I have two questions.
Um, and then I know we
still have to move on
to our next segment.
So I wanna quickly, if
I'm gonna try to ask both
of these questions in.
At the same time, even though
they're not exactly related.
so my first question is,
it's hard to think that
we've got so far in the
conversation without really
talking much about ai.
So I know that we all
as pmms, look, we know
that AI hallucinates and
so thus it's, it becomes
a bit less trustworthy.
So, I'm not asking
you should we use ai?
Like, that's not my question.
My question is like, under
what circumstances do
you think it's actually
helpful for A PMM to
use AI doing competitive
intelligence analysis?
Like when, when should I
use AI for that and when do
I not and just move forward
with the human touch.
Yeah.
So I would say, um, generally
speaking, I'm, I'm the type
of person, and I don't think
this is a secret about me.
Um, I will die on the hill
that, that I will never
have 32nd battle cards.
I'm not gonna let AI
build a battle card.
You're just depends on like
your source, your content,
it's tends to be wrong.
Um, there, there are platforms
that I love like Gong, and
Gong has great ai, but I,
I wouldn't want gong to
build me a battle card.
Um, because you're talking
about using your call data.
That's what your
customer's saying.
It assumes they know
everything correct
about your competitor.
Your sales rep already
is hitting all of the
right points for you.
Like at that point, why do
you even need a battle card?
But Gong AI can be great for
finding new objection handling
that belongs on a battle card.
I wouldn't trust it to be the
best answer, but it'll tell
you what you're saying today.
Um, and then that's
where you can kind of
come in and say, okay.
Is this the best
possible answer?
How do we get our
reps to answer those
more consistently?
I always use AI with a
strong human in the loop.
AI can be great for research.
I'm a big fan of perplexity.
Um, I think it's a
great search engine.
but I don't actually
assume that it's correct.
I actually go look at the, the
underlying source material.
but I think as you're
thinking about like some
of the gut shack on like
what people, what words
people might use to describe
different types of platforms
or like general market
sense, it might be helpful.
Um, I don't personally
use it, but I could see
it fitting into that like
way of, of understanding,
um, your market.
But I would say.
anything that's like
core and foundational,
you should always like
strong human in the loop.
I would actually rather have
this battle card framework.
I built this before, like
AI became like the biggest
buzz in, product marketing.
And I look at it now and I'm
like, I would still use this
framework over a 32nd battle
card all day, every day.
Um, now could you combine
AI plus this framework?
I think that's where
you start to unlock
something really powerful.
Um, if you can really, that
requires a lot more guardrails
and it's probably like a
whole separate conversation,
but it's something that I've
been working on, like finding
ways to make it easier for
reps to consume battle cards.
We'll have to come back
for a part two of the
EPIs of the episode then.
ready for it.
okay.
I lied about how many
questions I had for you.
so let's just jump to
the very last one though.
'cause I know we have, so we
still have so much to get to.
So, if I'm a PMM right,
and I'm building my
competitive intelligence
platform from scratch,
what's one piece of advice
that you might have for me?
So if you're getting started
for the first time, two
pieces of advice, I would
have one, definitely make
sure that you go in with
a clean scope, figure out
exactly what it is that
falls in your wheelhouse and
what doesn't, and be really
clear, and set expectations
on what's realistic.
With this battle card
framework that I've built,
I can cover a lot of
competitors, but there's
a limit to the number of
competitors, even within
a tiering system that like
one person can support.
Yes, I know that people
think with AI you can support
a lot more, but if you're
really clear and upfront
on like, Hey, here's what
AI does and here's what
AI doesn't do very well.
Right?
You don't want
wrong information.
Um, when I think about like
using ai, like generally
you're getting a collective
whole of the internet.
I don't really want
the collective whole
of the internet, right?
I don't really care what one
random person on a G two crowd
says they could be wrong.
Um, it, it's a lead.
It, it's a way to something
that you could go track down.
it could be sentiment, it
could be a whole bunch of
other things, but you don't
wanna, like inherently treat
it as the source of truth.
I don't really care what
my competitor says on their
marketing website like I
do, but I don't like, that's
marketing polish, right?
The real truth, the
real heart, and the
real, like details are
in their support docs.
I want that, not
the rest of it.
And I don't care what
one other competitor
says about another right.
That might be useful,
but I certainly wouldn't
wanna use it to like
build a battle card.
So as long as you're
setting expectations up
front, especially around
AI and how it works and how
it doesn't work, I think
you'll be in a better spot.
And then that other piece
of advice is just how do
you position things, right?
If you go to each stakeholder.
Separately.
And you think about you're
going to ask them for
something, make that ask about
how they're going to benefit.
Hey, sales manager, I
wanna make sure that you
are gonna sign off on
our win-loss program.
here's what we're
gonna do, right?
We're gonna reach out, we're
gonna talk to customers.
It's gonna do X, Y, Z. and
really we're gonna validate
the things that you're
probably already running into
the, during the sales cycle,
but because it came directly
from the customer, it's
gonna have additional weight.
We're also gonna be able
to better stack rank.
Now all of a sudden, it's
just not me asking a sales
rep to talk to their customer.
It's about what they're
going to get out of it.
Um, and they're gonna be
much more inclined to, to
give me what I'm asking for.
Um, and so I think that's just
a technique that we can apply
in, in a lot of different ways
across, you know, competitive
market intelligence and
product marketing as a whole.
So those
Yeah,
my pieces of advice.
I have come, I'm
coming back to context.
That's what I'm hearing
for, for from all of this is
creating context, providing
context, gathering context.
it's a really strong takeaway.
I love it.
Okay.
Um, I wanna very quickly
run to the next segment
of our show, um, which is
the messaging critique.
So this is where we as product
marketing experts get to
analyze real world marketing.
And the fun part is that
Mindy, as the guest on my
show, you get to choose the
company that we look at today.
So, um, the ground rules are,
uh, try to pick a company
that either you know the
market really well, or, um,
you are the target customer.
Wouldn't be fair to critique.
Um, messaging on a company
that we don't know their
target audience very well.
and then tell me what
you're loving about it,
uh, what you wish the PMM
would've done differently.
And maybe we'll iterate a
little bit and see how we
can give some advice to
those pmms on how they can
take it to the next level.
Uh, so without
further ado Yeah.
Like Reveal, like
who's the company
we're looking at today?
So I, I'm gonna give a
quick story on how I came
to the conclusion of this
one, but we're gonna talk
about, if, if everybody is
not already talking about
Anthropic, Claudes Super
Bowl ads, you're missing out.
Um, but the reason I like it,
and actually when we first
started talking about this, I
had a different one in mind.
you have to do a
competitive ad with, with
a competitive person.
It's just, it's A must.
Um, my favorite, most
iconic competitive ad that
I think most people would
point to is like, oh, it's
really clear, is the, hi,
I'm a Mac and Hi, I'm a pc.
Um, and then there was like a
version of that that Google,
um, did with Pixel and it's
called Best Phones Forever.
And it's Pixel
and, and an iPhone.
Um, like being good friends
and it makes a lot of really
direct stabs at iPhone.
Um, like really aggressively,
but it's framed in
this cute, their best
friends and they just
Yeah, you.
But what I loved about
Anthropic, uh, ads, about,
ads are coming to ai but
not to Claude, is that
they don't even have to
tell you what competitor
they're talking about.
You already know.
It is so obviously
chat, GPT coded, they
never make a claim.
They never say that
this is how ads are
gonna work on chat.
GPT, they never mention
chat GPT by name.
It's just so obvious
because so many people know
the experience of talking
to chat GPT, that you.
watch that ad. and there
are four different ads.
They're each a person
like having a conversation
with ai, um, and trying
to solve a problem.
And it sounds like chat,
GPT, it's got that like, oh.
Well, that's a great idea.
Yeah.
It's got that validation.
It pauses in weird ways That
you kind of associate with
having a conversation with ai.
Um, and then like in the
middle of getting advice,
it's giving you an ad.
And, um, I, I like, it's hard
to say which ones like my
favorite of the lot, but I
think the one that's probably
gonna stand out to most
people is a, a. A guy is.
having a conversation with
ai, trying to figure out
how to connect with his
mom, um, and in the middle
having this conversation
connecting about his mom and
like things That he should
do to be more empathetic.
It starts to suggest a
website, I think it's
golden encounters.com
if you're looking to
connect with Cougars.
and like this, just
like look on his face.
Next level, Claude
registered that domain
name and it actually
takes you to a website
that talks about Claude.
and so um, I am like positive.
It's uh,
is.
That is so
funny.
That is so funny.
I did not know that they did.
I, I've seen that
particular ad. I did
think it was hilarious.
That is pretty next level.
Yeah, it was, uh, I think
it was pretty, uh, now I've
gotta like look up what
the, the website was for.
Um, it was.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was,
it was definitely, um, nope.
Somebody's already built a,
a version of it now That's
like the, the.net, but it's,
uh, oh, yes, it's golden
encounters.com and it says,
hello, curious young cub,
are you looking for Roaring
Cougars in your area?
Unfortunately, golden
Encounters is not a genuine
business, and even if it were,
it certainly wouldn't be.
and even if it were, it
certainly has no place
when you're talking to
your AI and it's just goes
and takes you to cloud.
It's so good.
I love
how they like, yeah,
they like spart.
Not only is it ex very
entertaining and funny and
thus memorable and hitting
on something that's, I
think very meaningful and
that the user cares a lot
about is having ads in their
experience, but taking the
narrative out of the ad or
the commercial itself so
that you can actually engage
and interact with it, like
creating the domain name.
I think that
I love that people know,
it's kind of like when John
Oliver's last week, tonight
has like a random thing and
he puts the URL up there
and you know that it's
gonna be something wild.
I feel like they took
inspiration from that.
Um, but it was, I think
my, if I take one step
further on, what I liked
about it was it clearly
upset the CEO of OpenAI.
He went on a
Twitter, uh, tirade.
There are now Tuck Crunch
articles talking about how
upset he was, um, and how we
would never do it this way.
And I'm like, but it, they
never said it was you.
And it's heavily implied
and it's definitely fud,
but like, it is people's
fear, it hits on a root,
um, emotion of like.
That would be a great way
for them if they were gonna
start building out a category
of battle card frameworks.
There can be, uh, AI that
has ads like that is a
category you're no longer, um,
And it's your
differentiator for that
yeah, you're, you're no longer
if, if something is free.
Um, that's not the
product or the product.
Like that logic
definitely holds.
but it's, it's a
stake in the ground.
That's the risk that Claude
has taken by making this ad.
They can't go back on it.
Um, if they ever do
expect these ads to
resurface in, great sati.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
so, and I'd be very curious
to see, like, it'd be so
interesting to be on the
inside of Anthropic to see
how the campaign is performing
because I've seen results
in my tiny little LinkedIn
network, multiple people
showing up in my thread, and
those are only the people
who are actually openly
announcing this to
their, to their talk.
Well, their network saying
that they're switching.
I've seen like, bye Chachi
pt. Like, hello, Claude.
Like I've seen it
multiple times just in
my tiny little network.
Yeah.
So it's clearly like
could,
effective,
if I could get the insight
scoop, I would wanna be
in like their CI channel.
There has to be a CI channel
at Anthropic, and people
had to be like sharing
the, as soon as it hit
Twitter, um, that somebody
was upset, that had to have
been like a moment, and the
marketing team had to have,
I would've felt so proud.
Totally.
I'm sure they're
still celebrating.
so to wrapping up two
questions in the into one,
I guess like part A, the
question is, what do you
wish the PMM team would've
considered, if anything
at all for this campaign?
And then two, how
would you evolve this
campaign going forward?
I would say it's, it's hard
to say that there's much I
would change about the ads.
I think the fact that they
pre elite them before the
Super Bowl or released
them, uh, was really smart.
I think the only thing
that, like, theoretically,
I don't think they made any
marketing claims, obviously.
Like that doesn't mean
that can't get you a cease
and desist or, you know,
um, legal nastiness there.
But I think, I feel
like they'd have a
really tough case.
so I can't really
find much that I would
fault them if they had
named chat GPT by name.
It would be a totally
different story.
But yeah, I think they
did such a good job.
Um, like just Gold Star.
This will probably go down as
one of the best competitive
ads, that's been run,
I think so too.
Okay.
And then how would you
evolve it going forward?
gosh, I would say like
continuing to double
down on that, right?
There are other AI platforms
out there, chat, GPT,
and uh, anthropic are
not the only players.
Um, I think they're gonna
cause people to take sides.
Um, and if they can, stay
firm or maybe even like
partner with other, companies
that are like-minded to form
like a trust or like, Hey,
this is what we're gonna do.
Um, it's kind of like if
you look in certain spaces,
there tend to be like
patent lawsuits, um, that
are just like superfluous.
They get like a patent
and then they try and like
shake down a bunch of other
companies and you have
like an agreement to say
like, Hey, we're standing
together against this.
Um, I remember.
Seeing Shopify take a
stance once on patents.
and so like you could
literally get a group
together and say like, Hey,
we're making an agreement
that this is like, the
future of ads can be better
and they can like plus one
what Anthropic is doing.
I don't think anthropic
needs it, but I think
other people would benefit
and it would bring more
attention to everybody.
and then, Yeah,
that's, that's probably
where I would say like
consider taking is, could
you make this a movement?
you change the
way that AI works?
'cause you were so
bold, and reconsider it
and it got such a, such a
strong positive reaction.
Again, at least from
what I could see from
my tiny little sample
size of a network, like,
same, uh, every product
marketer, every CI
person I know is talking
about that on right now.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Well shout out to all the
anthropic pmms out there.
You've definitely got some
fans and great job with this
competitive storytelling.
It's, yeah, I agree.
It's gonna go down in
history as you know, a goat.
Um, so, uh, okay.
So Mindy, one of the last
things I try to save space
for on the podcast is a
moment of gratitude because
in product marketing,
none of us get here alone.
So, um, I just wanna give you
a genuine thank you for being
so generous with your time and
your insights and willingness
to share your, your
playbook and your templates.
Um, thank you.
We're really, the pm
m community is really
lucky to have you.
Oh, thank you so much.
I, um, I've had a lot of
great mentors along the way
and, and great colleagues
and um, just really.
That took a chance on me.
Um, I started N CI
before it was a thing.
So, to extend that gratitude
back out, uh, there were
three product marketers
that really like took a
chance on me very early on.
Uh, Travis Belinas
was my first manager.
Leo Castro was the
person who hired me.
Um, and Steven Miser has
been my mentor the entire
time and I would not be
the CI PMM person that I
am without those three.
and I just have an amazing
team at Klaviyo and lots
of love to all of them.
And special shout out to
my first ever direct report
Moxi, who just got promoted,
um, to full like manager
level from associates.
So, um, I am so proud of her
and being part of her career
has been really special.
So
Aw.
Look at all those shout outs.
Yeah.
Aw.
Well, big thank you to those
mentors and pmms who have
shaped who you are because
now you're making such this,
this such big impact on
obviously for your company
and your peers and the
rest of the PMM community.
So go mentors.
Um, okay.
And I swear this is my
last question for you.
Um, where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to find
you on LinkedIn?
Yeah, LinkedIn is is the,
the best place to find me.
All right, will do.
Um, again, thank
you so much Mindy.
And hey listeners, if
you liked this episode,
please share it with a
PMM friend and, um, I
would be so grateful if
you would leave a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Um, and thank you for coming
on this journey with us today.
I hope it leaves, uh,
inspiration for you to
take with you in the next
step of your own journey.