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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
This is the Transform Your Teaching podcast. The Transform Your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Hello, and
Ryan:welcome to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. In today's episode, we hear part two of Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles conversation on student perspectives with Lauren and Daniel. Thanks for
Jared:joining us. Alright. Let's go to the next one. Clarity, organization, and communication. K.
Jared:Here's the research. A well organized course with clear expectations is highly valued according to research. To you, here's your question. How important are clear course outlines, accessible syllabi, don't make fun of me for saying syllabi, and structured lectures to your success? Who wants to go first?
Daniel:I don't wanna go first, but Okay.
Lauren:I I can if you don't want to.
Rob:You just did, so go ahead.
Daniel:I know. Yeah. So, I mean, Lauren was motioning to me, so I guess she also does not wanna go first. But I think detailed syllabi are helpful, like, throughout the year. Like, I don't really look at them prior to the class as much, but as I have questions, I normally look at them because I don't think it's super helpful to, like, memorize the syllabus before the class starts, but as I have questions it is helpful to like
Jared:Do you cheat on those syllabus quiz? They have an online course that's do you cheat on those?
Lauren:No? It's not cheating. They want you to look at syllabus.
Jared:That's true. They do.
Daniel:I just guess and I'm normally right.
Jared:That's true. That's not
Daniel:that I normally only give because they normally only give, like, one reasonable answer.
Jared:Yeah.
Daniel:The other one's like
Lauren:That's true. I'm just about testing.
Jared:Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's fair. Anyway, go ahead.
Jared:Sorry.
Daniel:No. It's okay. I that's all I had to say. I I I need to think normally, so it's nice to go second, but
Rob:that's all I have to say about
Jared:We'll come we'll come back to you if you need to.
Lauren:So I would say that that is very important to my personal success. I need structure, clear expectations. I like the teachers that have everything on their Canvas. And if they don't have their Canvas set up well, it bothers me. I also am someone that struggles with details.
Lauren:So if I have to search to find like something in your syllabus, I'm probably just gonna forget or not. Or like if they don't have a deadline posted. Yes, I actually have had experience with this because generally education professors are very direct and very clear about expectations. So they will say, if we have a project, they will hand us the rubric, say, this is exactly what you need to do. Some of them will even say, if it's an essay, first paragraph, write this.
Lauren:Second paragraph, write that. I love that. Absolutely love it. And then I've done that and then I'm I'm taking a few linguistics classes as well. And those professors are a lot more like, well, you could write about this.
Lauren:You could do that. And that, like, irks me because I don't I'm like, okay. But what exactly do you need from me? So I think it is very helpful if everything is organized and laid out.
Jared:What happens if that doesn't happen for you? What do you do?
Lauren:That's a good question. Well, typically, my first response is to ask other people in the class, well, what are you gonna do? And then I will use every resource that they do have and go, okay, here's the one rubric they do give me, what does this say? And then I go off of that.
Jared:But it's really hard to you can only work with what you're given. Yes. So it's difficult to make that up when you're not given what you need.
Lauren:Yes.
Jared:How do you feel about disorganized Canvas courses, Daniel?
Rob:Well, I I will have to say disorganized according to whom.
Jared:That's Okay. Here we go. Mister definition. Let's let's define disorganized.
Rob:Well, mean, genuinely, I mean, if I use the word organized, it depends on what I'm organizing towards or relative to.
Daniel:I mean, that makes sense.
Rob:But So she gave us her definition of organization. Right?
Jared:Which is also my definition of organization.
Rob:Which is your organization.
Daniel:Which I would probably agree with.
Rob:You would agree with that?
Daniel:Yeah. Okay. Like detail oriented and Are you detail oriented? It depends. Depends.
Rob:Not Whether he's motivated.
Jared:I love it. I love your honesty.
Daniel:Yeah. Well, I appreciate your appreciation.
Jared:I love your honesty. That's very honest.
Rob:I agree with your assessment. It's very honest.
Daniel:But I would say that I appreciate when they are, like, very specific about their expectations. Like, recently, there was an assignment that kind of told what was told me what was supposed to be in the assignment, but when he graded it, he kind of left comments like, you missed this and
Lauren:Oh, they didn't tell you that needed to be there?
Daniel:It didn't say that it was supposed to be there in the first place, which was unhelpful. So hidden objectives. Like hidden objects objectives. Normally, when I'm confused about something, I will ask my friends like, hey, what did you guys do? And if we all make the same mistake, I'm okay with that because then at least it wasn't my fault.
Daniel:Wow.
Jared:But you guys aren't talking to your instructors about these things? If you like, you both have said you you first go to your peers.
Lauren:Depends on the instructor.
Daniel:I mean, I don't want to, like, email my professor unless I have to.
Lauren:Some of yeah.
Daniel:I agree. Like one, like I don't wanna be annoying. Yes. Especially if it was in the syllabus and I just didn't see
Lauren:it. Exactly. Because that's actually happened to me.
Jared:Oh, the do they go, did you check the syllabus? Yep. Maybe. Because I did that when I when I was teaching. I would do that too.
Jared:Did you check the syllabus?
Daniel:And, like, I did check the syllabus. I just may have missed it. So I I'll first ask my friends to see if they heard something in class that I just missed or if they or if it was in the syllabus and I just didn't see it. Because sometimes they're hidden, like, sometimes there's gonna be things in the syllabus that are not on the descriptions of the assignment, and sometimes there's some things in the descriptions for particular assignments that aren't in the syllabus. And so sometimes I just misplace some of the information that needs to be in particular assignments, like especially, like, large papers or Mhmm.
Daniel:Bigger projects. Okay.
Rob:So it seems like overall what I'm hearing is
Daniel:be clear. I guess one thing I would add as well is it's helpful when everything's laid out at the very beginning of semester. Uh-huh. So like when I'm trying to plan out my semester and how when I wanna get assignments done, it's not super helpful when professors, like, add assignments throughout the year because then I have to, like, replan how I want to tackle and get get to some of the assignments that I need to do. Mhmm.
Daniel:Because then there's, like, more work than I was anticipating.
Lauren:Mhmm. See, that's interesting because I would actually disagree with that. But this is probably probably just personal preference. I think it's I appreciate when professors lay everything out at the beginning of the semester, but at the same time, personally, I'd rather you just tell me as things come. I mean, obviously, not the day before it's due, but that's interesting that you say.
Rob:So, like, week by week?
Lauren:Like, I mean, it depends if it's a big project, maybe two or three weeks ahead. But I don't personally feel like I need to know five months ahead of time.
Rob:So that goes towards your personal motivation for learning.
Daniel:Yeah. Mean, I normally don't work five months ahead, but if I'm planning out my semester, I look at, like, okay. I need to do like, if I have a book report due at the like, during February and one in March, I wanna plan out how I want to read the book. Mhmm. And then, like, plan, okay, this day I'm gonna I want to read this much of this book.
Daniel:Mhmm. And if other assignments are like, oh, wait. You actually have these readings that are due this week that I didn't know about prior, then I end up having to read, like, a hundred pages on one day to be able to keep up with my class classes instead of being able to plan out.
Rob:Yeah. Effective was that when you had to like chunk it like the last minute?
Daniel:Did you Super help. I mean, it depends on the book. Like, if they're if if it's an easy read, then Mhmm. I can at least get the major points from it. But if it's a very in-depth, I'm just skimming.
Daniel:I'm I'm gonna have to miss a lot of the details.
Rob:Okay. This is extremely interesting. Yeah.
Jared:Well, you guys ready for another one? Yes. Alright. Here we go. Timely and constructive feedback.
Jared:K. Here we go. Studies emphasize that timely constructive feedback supports student learning. How do you feel about the feedback you receive from your instructors? Does it help you understand your mistakes and improve?
Jared:We kind of hit on that a little bit in the last one, but tell me about and we try to keep this as anonymous as possible.
Lauren:I think this goes honestly goes back hand in hand with the last one. I think feedback is helpful if expectations are clear the first time. And that's something they actually teach us in our classes is tell students exactly what you want from them so that their the feedback is actually helpful. Because kinda like when Daniel was talking about his assignment where he wasn't didn't even know something was supposed to be in, like, an essay or whatever. And that's happened to me before, when I was taking classes at Columbus State.
Lauren:And I had a professor that didn't even give us a rubric, and then we had to write an essay and then he was like, Oh, you're missing this, this and that. That's not constructive because I didn't know I needed that in the first place.
Jared:It goes back to the rubric idea. Yeah. I need to know how I'm being assessed.
Lauren:Yes. Tell me tell me what you want me to do. Yeah. And then when I don't do what you asked of me, okay, talk about it then, but
Daniel:I think that I have a couple professors who are really good at giving feedback quickly
Rob:Mhmm.
Daniel:Which I do find helpful for doing their, like, next assignments, so I know what they are expecting. So if I misinterpreted something on the rubric, it was helpful for them to at least make a comment. I'm able to adjust. And then also just I mean, the assignment itself is to help is supposed to help set me up for future ministry as well. So just trying to think through critically about what I'm doing, and I think that's helpful.
Daniel:And then there are some professors who wait months Mhmm. To, like, grade and give feedback. And by that point, I'm like, I forgot what I did for this assignment.
Lauren:Don't even remember.
Rob:So So
Daniel:I don't even look at the feedback much because I'm, like, way past that assignment.
Lauren:You just say almost. Exactly.
Daniel:You said Okay. I don't know.
Lauren:I mean, you know, exaggeration. Mm-mm.
Daniel:But for
Rob:I don't disagree with what's been said. I think you do have to be clear. I think you do need to set clear expectations. I think it's very helpful to have exemplars of good and bad assignments. Totally agree with that.
Rob:I think it's also very feasible and okay to say to students, I'm designing something that's going to cause you angst.
Jared:I've done this. It's amazing.
Rob:Because my actual objective here is to train you how to handle things when you don't know which way is up and you're trying to figure it out. So it would be if I'm trying to equip you with skills on how to figure it out when nobody tells you. Because the reality is you're going to face those things in life. Right? And so I think it's better to tell you ahead of time, look, we're gonna do this together.
Rob:You're gonna have moments where you're not gonna like me. I'm going to say things to you that you're like, well, you didn't tell me this was coming. And I'm gonna look at you and I'm gonna say, you're right. I didn't. Because I wanted you to experience it in the moment.
Rob:That was part of the plan. That was part of the educational plan. Because how many times have I seen through my life when I've had to face things that the Lord put in my path that I didn't know were coming? Right? But he still had equipped me.
Rob:He still had prepared me. But if I didn't know, you need to be prepared for the things you don't know are coming, which seems like an oxymoron. But, you know, if you know what's true and you know you're given tools and you know that at some point you're going to have to apply these things. So when doctor Piles asked Lauren, you know, how would you take care of that? Right?
Rob:How would you handle that when you don't know everything's clear? You're like, actually, I have a system that I can go to
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:That I can work and figure that out. You know? And one of those things would be you go to the professor. When you don't know, you just you keep bugging them until you get an answer. Right?
Rob:That's one of the things that I try to teach those that you know, if I take them through something like that, that's that's one way of doing it. So I know there are those professors who do that specifically. My encouragement would be be clear that's what you're doing.
Jared:Yeah. You the and I think the important part of that is the communication aspect, like you just said.
Rob:Be clear that you're going to be not clear.
Jared:Yeah. I've told this story in the podcast before when I taught composition here. I introduced a project and just told them I just put up a question on the, projector on the slides and then just sat in the back of the room. And they all just stared at me. And I gave them a due date and they all just stared at me.
Jared:I said, it's up to you guys to figure out how you're going to be assessed and how you get this job done. And I just sat there and they refused to do anything. And so it was a stalemate. I I wouldn't move. They wouldn't move until finally someone was like, alright.
Jared:So what do we value about this project? And so they they started to gradually start to come alive and figure it out, and I just sat there and watched them do it. And by the end of the class, they had created a draft of a rubric and expectations, and then we we sat together at the end of the class, and we formalized it, and we cleaned it up. And then the class then became, here's your time to work together as a class to finish this class wide project. And I would do like I was the client they were working for and they would give me updates on what they're doing.
Jared:I would give them feedback and went back and forth. So that's that's what the class ended up becoming. But, yeah, there was that initial fear of like, but you're not telling me what I'm supposed to do.
Lauren:But you did after that intro thing. Right?
Jared:That's true. Yeah. I did.
Lauren:And I think that's different.
Jared:But the initial I think we get into spoon feeding our students at the college level a bit much, I think. Right. I think literature would kind of push us that way a bit too much where it's like, you gotta bake everything completely clear. Mhmm. There's no real of that zone of proximal development.
Jared:Are you there yet, Lauren, with ZPD? Yeah. There's no real, like, letting them make that jump between what they know and what they don't know. We wanna give it to them Yeah. I think.
Daniel:Well, and
Rob:owning it too. Like, the things that you own. Right? Daniel, it seems like you have had some sense of if if you're motivated, you're gonna do it. Mhmm.
Daniel:Yeah. And it's also has to be the intention of the professor.
Rob:Yes.
Daniel:I think sometimes they don't they're unintentionally not being clear. Yes. Which is unhelpful. But if, like, in your case that was intentional and you had a purpose behind why you were not being clear instead of just being very vague on the rubric and expecting people to know what you're expecting.
Jared:That's fair.
Lauren:Yeah. I think part of the problem is when we're being graded on something and then we're not told what we're actually being graded on.
Rob:Yeah. That's unfair.
Lauren:Yeah. That's very different than like an introductory thing of like, oh, you have to figure this out yourself.
Jared:Well, we have more, but we're out of time. Yeah. And, we'll have you guys back to do this because I think you guys are incredible. So I'm very thankful that you guys are willing to come on.
Rob:This has been fun. I don't know if it's been fun for you, but it's been fun for you.
Lauren:Oh, I've enjoyed it. Yeah.
Jared:Well, Rob, that was part two of our interview with Daniel and Lauren, getting their perspectives on some what research says is best practices for students. And I thought this conversation was extremely enlightening.
Rob:We also had organization, instructor feedback, and what do you do if you can't find something in the course? They seem to talk about peers. But I'm curious as to what you found most enlightening.
Jared:So the one that blew my mind and the but also one that was kind of nestled in the back of my head, but didn't want to come up. I would like every time I come up, be like, go back. I don't wanna reference you, but go away. Was the whole idea that online collaboration is dumb. Well, I
Rob:think they said something about that as well as like group work too.
Jared:Yeah. That and like discussion online. We have to find a better way of doing it because research would say that the connection for a student is important and it can be done through community of inquiry, through student to content, student to instructor, and student to student. So they feel a sense of belonging in the course. However, best practices and the research would tell you that you do it through discussions and you do it through group work.
Jared:But both of those, Daniel and Lauren, both said were not any good. And the way it's being done is just not effective at all. They don't feel my impression from them was they don't feel connected, and it felt just like busy work.
Rob:Yeah. They they felt like they were just jumping through hoops.
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:And so then they were making value decisions or, you know, value proposition decisions as to what they were gonna do and what they weren't gonna do just based on their time, what was important to them. Yeah. That was yeah. That part was very enlightening. For me, I would say I enjoyed hearing, like, honest reflection because I really felt like they were honest with us.
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:And they gave us some good insights. And I think that's probably why, especially the first episode was so well listened.
Jared:Yeah. Highest performing episode in Transform Your Teaching History.
Rob:Period.
Jared:Period.
Rob:So that one kind of shocked me. Yeah. Which, you know, we did ask questions like, did you tell a bunch of people and are they listening? Are your friends listening?
Jared:So a little peek behind the curtain. We are we did this again. We've recorded them again, and that episode will come out. Part one will come out in August of twenty five. So, yeah, we did talk to them again and we asked them, did you are you like inflating the numbers by having all your friends and family listen?
Jared:And they were like, no. So
Rob:So we don't know where all these listeners for that first episode Yeah. You know, have come from and then what our listeners will hear coming up. But it just gave us more to think about because we tend to look at the research, assume that it's pointing in the right direction.
Jared:Yep.
Rob:And let me be clear, two people alone
Jared:Correct. Undergrad as well.
Rob:Yeah. They're undergrad. Don't debunk, you know, everything that's there. But if anything, it just helps us think more precisely about this topic of teaching and learning and who we're discussing things with.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:In this case, we had two students who were undergrads, as you said, both sophomores. So I mean, what would be really interesting is maybe their senior year, Lord willing, if we're still, you know, doing these, to be able to have them on and kind of rehash Yeah. Some of these questions and see where where are we at? Where are you at with your educational journey? Mhmm.
Rob:What changed Yeah. If anything? I'd also be curious to know what our listeners really thought and how they perceived the the responses that they had.
Jared:Yeah. I'm intrigued by that as well.
Rob:But I have heard that over and over again, discussions and group work.
Jared:Yep.
Rob:We had people at AECT who, you know, their areas of expertise
Jared:It blew my mind.
Rob:In group work and community and all these things who some of them, you know, are your friends
Jared:Right. And people I admire.
Rob:And colleagues Yeah. Who've written on these areas and then say something like
Jared:Yeah. It doesn't
Rob:work. It doesn't work. I hate it. I hate it.
Jared:I hate doing it. I hate doing it. I don't wanna do it.
Rob:Yeah. So it seems like there's something there. Right? There seems like there's some opportunity change. Yeah.
Rob:I'd be curious if any of our faculty who are listening or any other faculty for that matter have some ideas about how could you make this more realistic? How could you make it work better?
Jared:Right.
Rob:How could you make it something that people want to do and is not something where you're just jumping through the hoops?
Jared:The only thing I would add is if I wonder if we can we can tie it back to motivation. Like, I wonder if we had graduate students or doctoral students. As Ryan has brought up before in our conversations outside the podcast. You know, is motivation different based on undergrad, graduate, or doctoral students? You could also bring in adult learning theory at that point and say, you know, are adults more motivated because they have a more defined goal of what they want to do in their graduate work or whatever.
Jared:But it's just really interesting episode. I thought the conversation was great. And like I said earlier, they'll be back. We had them back and we had some more stuff to bounce off of them. Yep.
Jared:And their insights were just as intriguing as before. So be listening for that in August of this year.
Rob:Looking forward to it.
Jared:Yeah, for sure.
Ryan:Thanks for listening to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. Remember to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn. Feel free to shoot us a question or a comment. We would greatly appreciate it.
Ryan:Also, don't forget to check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog. Thanks for listening.