The Girl With All The Gifts Part 1 - M.R. Carey - Zombie Horror Book - Apocalyptic Book

In this episode of the Side Quest podcast, Slava and Jonathan discuss M.R. Carey's novel The Girl with All the Gifts. They explore the story's unique perspective, which combines horror and science fiction elements. The discussion covers the author's background, the creative process behind the book, character development, pacing, and reader engagement, culminating in a lively debate about the themes and structure of the narrative.

A fellow content creator on Instagram, @booksandcrannies2023, recommended this book. Make sure to give her a follow. 

Our website: www.thesidequestpodcast.com

Discover Side Quest: https://linktr.ee/asidequest
Powered by Descript
Our IG Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Leave us a comment & connect with us on Instagram

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our TikTok Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Music by HoliznaCC0v

Chapters
(00:00) – Intro
(01:30) – Exploring The Girl with All the Gifts
(04:40) – Understanding M.R. Carey and His Works
(09:00) – The Creative Process Behind the Novel
(10:57) – Character Development and Perspectives
(15:11) – Pacing & Story Structure Discussion
(19:21) – Engagement & Reader Expectations
(25:55) – Dissecting Themes & Character Arcs
(32:09) – Conclusion & Audience Engagement
(34:26) – The Hungry Identity: Sisyphus & Survival
(38:14) – Character Exploration: Who Stands Out?
(45:01) – Character Goals & Understanding Motivations
(47:42) – Culinary Delights of The Hungry
(50:32) – The Heart of the Matter: Reason vs. Empathy

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

Jonathan (00:10.862)
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuest because, frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.

Good morning, Jonathan

Good morning, Slava Happy Apocalypse.

Good morning, audience. Happy apocalypse. Hope you're all safe in bunkers away from any hungries or genius level children with the ability to eat your throat.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I run into those regularly.

Slava (01:00.792)
What, the other brother skids?

Both of them, both of them. All seven children, genius level. At different ages, but genius for their age.

and an insatiable lust for meat. Man meat.

They do have an insatiable lust for more meat, not so much. One of them vehemently hates chicken, but will eat chicken nuggets.

The tracks, the tracks.

Jonathan (01:30.016)
I mean, it's basically the same thing. Well, today we are diving into The Girl with All the Gifts. And this is written by MRCarrie. Have we read it before? No. This was actually suggested to us by one of our Instagram followers, Booksandcranies2023. Her name's Abby. Shout out to you, Abby. We'll be talking to you again soon when we have you on the show.

And give her a shout out audience at Books and Crannies 2023. She does book reviews and talks all things books on her Instagram, like we do on this podcast. So I would suggest you give her a follow.

That's right, Slava. Can you give us a quick summary for the listeners?

M.R. Carey's, the girl with all the gifts, actually began as a short story and was adopted into a film, 2016. Side note, I watched the trailer. I don't think I like it. It didn't grab me. But it was adapted into a film in 2016, which Carey also wrote the screenplay for. And if you're wondering who Carey is, just another side note is he is Mike Carey from the comic book world. So if you are a comic book fan, a reader of...

the books of comics, you will recognize his name. But nevertheless, back to the summary. The novel which Carrie wrote concurrently was published in 2014. It is a post-apocalyptic horror tale that fits, according to one reviewer, uneasily into the zombie science fiction literary genre. It doesn't mean that in a negative way, but it is a little bit of a twist on the trope or the genre of zombie stories.

Slava (03:15.36)
And while The Girl with All the Gifts incorporates plenty of genre tropes, cannibalism, disease, high-speed chases, feeding frenzies, the core of the story is actually a relationship between a young girl and her teacher. Our buddy Carrie here has written both prose and fiction and comic books. He's also worked on several of Marvel's comic flagship titles, including X-Men and Fantastic Four.

That's fun. Thank you for that Slava. A quick note to you, our listeners, we're doing another three episode structure where you will get notes in this episode about the author, the overview and themes and a little bit of the plot. Episode two, we'll dive into the plot with chunked chapter conversations and episode three, we'll have a guest. That guest will be our Instagram follower, Abby Books and Cranies 2023, coming on to talk to us about how much she loves this book and why she suggested it.

So stay tuned for that.

Yeah, so fun. This is our first guest that is not a friend. So it's an official guest of the SideQuest podcast. I'm so excited she said yes.

Welcome back fellow book lovers. Hit that subscribe button so that you never miss an episode. This journey is one you won't want to miss.

Slava (04:33.518)
So who is MR Kerry? Tell us a little bit about him, Mr. Jonathan.

So I didn't know anything about this book or this author at a glance. And I consider myself a novice reader. And I only say that because I've met people who really read books, like a book a week. Although I guess we kind of do that. But that's different. I do that. They just plow through books, right? And they're like, I know this author, this author. I don't know those things. You know me. I like to stick to my fantasy and sci-fi fiction. That's my bread and butter.

and hustle bro books.

Sorry, excuse me? Did you want to repeat that? He's only written two books. I don't read them every week.

and David Goggins books.

Slava (05:21.422)
Oh, don't revisit like chapter seven of whatever run it for.

Jonathan (05:34.912)
It's weird that he just got muted. That's really weird. Suddenly Slava was muted.

Here we have the dystopian version of Jonathan.

What do we make it 10 minutes? We made it about 10 minutes. All right. So, M.R. Carey is the author of The Girl with All the Gifts, and he is a British author, and he's known to Slavish point earlier for his work across multiple genres and multiple mediums, including novels and comics and screenplays. So, just want to pause on this real quick. Most storytellers are not...

fluent enough to be able to write genre cross-medium, because it's really, really hard. That's very impressive. Respect to him. Very much so. And then later found out that he worked with Marvel in DC, and I was like, shoot, I've probably seen some of this guy's work, and it's term on top that I have. Before, The Girl with All the Gifts. So that was kind of a fun uncovering of discovering a new author for me.

You might also know some other notable titles that he's done like Lucifer and Hellblazer from the comic book world. Carrie is celebrated for his ability to elements of horror and science fiction and drama, often focusing on moral ambiguity with characters and complex issues. The Girl with All the Gifts was adapted into a successful film in 2016, even though Slava didn't like it, with Carrie himself contributing to the screenplay. That's a little bit about the author.

Jonathan (07:13.07)
I just did another lookup as we were doing this episode. He has a medieval fantasy book coming out in March that I think I want to read. Yeah. And this is the summary. A fable of twisted folklore, macabre magic, and the strangest of found families. That's the one-liner. I like it. 1,100 and some years after the death of Christ in the kingdom that had but recently begun to call itself England.

What's upon a Willem?

Jonathan (07:43.714)
I once was Willem, rose from the dead to defeat the great evil facing the humble village of Kosh Am. The words enclosed herein are true. I speak of monsters and magic, battle and bloodletting, and the crimes of desperate men. I speak also of secret things, of that which lies beneath us, and that which impends above. By the time you come to the end of this account, you will know the truth.

of your own life and death. The path laid out for your immortal soul, your origin, and your inevitable end. You will not thank me.

Ha. Love it. That's a hell of a hook.

Yeah, think we should throw that on the... I realize that this book list just keeps getting longer.

Thank God for that. That's how we get this podcast going forward and forward.

Jonathan (08:38.699)
Yeah, but this is, this is the fun of having the books suggested from you guys, our audience and going, Hey, this is an author that we would not have picked up. We didn't think about him. didn't know about him. He just like, wasn't in the purview of the other things that we've been going through. And so one book leads to another book leads to another book. And that's, that's the fun of this journey before destination.

Hell yeah. And the way this book came about, I went and found interviews as I normally do. And in one interview, I think it's with a Scottish newspaper or a Scottish platform. In this interview, Carey discusses the development of his novel and film because they came out for the same time almost. Like he was writing the screenplay and the book at the same time. Initially, it was written for an anthology. So was a short story, like I mentioned earlier.

With the topic school days and Carrie struggled to generate ideas until he envisioned Melanie. And he mentioned this in an interview, the first iteration of this short story. He thought it was just a, a dumb version of Harry Potter. He's like, this doesn't work. So he started to rework it and he envisioned Melanie and Melanie is a young girl in a classroom writing an essay about her future.

despite being a zombie who cannot grow up. So that's roughly what the short story was about. And then Melanie's story unfolds in a subterranean bunker where children like her are treated both as dangerous and precious. And that's in the book. Revealing her captivity and the strange dynamic between her and adults around her. Again, that's what actually found its way in the book if you read the book. And the creative process for Carrie, I think forced him

to really narrow in on the story elements that make this book excellent. That's why I find this book fantastic. I'll front load it and say this wasn't like the best book I ever read, but I liked the book. Solid B +, if not an A- for me. And as he began to write those things at the same time, the novel, you know, as it unfolded, explored multiple perspectives, and while the film focused only on Melanie's viewpoint.

Slava (10:57.294)
So I think that really made Carrie hone in on a lot of the themes and the standout elements of the book. So Carrie in the novel included more post-apocalyptic elements. For example, the junkers or survivalists. And then while he was writing the movie, he streamlined the narrative on the relationships. The inspiration for a lot of the characters, especially the main character was Melanie, he drew from his personal life.

He talked about working with his wife and daughter on previous projects and that helped him authentically represent Melanie's childlike perception of her world. Of the world that's actually constrained in a lot of ways where she has this drive to learn more and more. because she has above average intelligence, she's able to grasp a lot of things quickly and make the correct deductions.

But Melanie is actually based on his daughter in some way. We see this come alive in Melanie's worldview as it shifts dramatically as she ventures outside her bunker for the first time. And this provides a fresh perspective on the apocalyptic landscape. So we see the constraints of the world she's in in the classroom and in this little conclave or whatever you want to call it, military base.

And then she gets to get out of the military base and into the real world. So we get to see the destruction of what is called in the book, the end of the world. And this approach provides us with a unique zombie narrative. Unlike traditional zombie stories, the narrative is told from the perspective of Melanie, who again is intelligent and emotionally open child who's also a zombie, but she's not a brainless zombie, know, stumbling around the landscape eating.

anything she can or eating humans or attacking humans. And the story actually incorporates scientific explanation for the zombie outbreak. And based on some book reviewers that I watched, one woman whose name I forget, but she went into some detail and said her research led her to believe that the scientific elements of the story are actually correct. They're not made up. They're not just a

Slava (13:19.542)
an in-world thing, you can actually go and research this yourself and hopefully we'll get into that next episode when we pick apart some of the story elements. As he's writing this, Cary envisioned a fungus that jumps species to infect humans. And these things are parasitic organisms like the Toxoplasma gondii, which manipulates mice behavior. And he

further expanded on this concept by grounding the story and biological plausibility. And again, we'll get into it as we unpack the chunks of chapters where this is described in some detail. forgive me if I'm putting this into Kerry's mouth when he didn't say this, but this is what I got from the interview. I believe he acknowledges the genre, the zombie genre is saturated the market.

Even though we haven't had a breakout movie or story recently, not to my knowledge, this story he thinks stands out because of Melanie's unique viewpoint and again, the scientifically plausible origin for the apocalypse in this world. Moving away from the traditional viral explanations like we get in Resident Evil, which is a video game for those who don't know or other zombie stories like 28 Days Later.

All that stuff. So he thinks, and rightly so, and he wanted to make a story that's different than the typical zombie narrative. What did you think about the book? Because at first it sounded like you were less than happy that this book was suggested, or at least you expected more from it. And I think as you read the book, based on the notes you shared with me, you grew to like it. But I want to get a little bit of a deeper answer from you.

Yeah. So we start reading this book. I, and the thing is, I agree to all the books we read. We never read a book or force the other person to read a book where they're like, no, I'm not going to do that because there have been some books suggested over the time and we just didn't align on them. So it's like, we're like, oh, we're not going to read that book. Okay, great. Fine. I like taking suggestions for people to read books. However, that doesn't mean that I'm going to enjoy it the first read through or at all. Hashtag city in the city.

Jonathan (15:40.394)
we can play Slava for that one though. So I'm reading this book and I'm like nine chapters in and I'm like, cool. we're with children who are zombies. got it. Great. And then I'm 18 chapters in and it's like, okay, the little girl had like the visceral writing is nice. It's good. Leaves me a little squirmish, but it's slow. And it leaves me as a reader waiting for the larger story. And this is one of the things that I sent to Slava. I'm like,

Where's the larger story? And he's like, the story is survival. And I'm like, you don't understand anything based on my comment. This is like almost verbatim what we talked about. And I explained to him, there's a couple examples. We'll use one example, which is Lord of the Rings. You know that the hobbits are trying to go to destroy the ring. That's the big goal. We know that's where the story is leading. And so everything that happens is either for or against that storyline. That's the big thing that we're trying to do.

And with this story, I'm nine chapters in, I'm 18 chapters in, and I don't have a big story. It's just kids in a bunker being taken in and out and the guards don't like them, but one of the teachers touches them. Like, there's no bigger story. It takes so long to get that to happen, basically. Even when there's an outbreak, not an outbreak, a breach of the perimeter and Hungrys get into the camp.

and they have to flee. So, okay, now they're into survival. I get it. I understand. I've seen zombie movies, but it doesn't do it for me because I don't know where we're going. We don't get the depth of characters. I literally didn't start liking this book until halfway through. 36 chapters in. 36. And it's because I don't know where we're going. The character development, which is another way to play this book, didn't start until the mid-20s either.

like the late 20s, early 30s. So I literally took notes and it's like, well, I'm on chapter 27 and I lack clarity of what the characters want. And you've heard me talk about, you've listened to any of the other episodes, like it's important for the reader to know what characters want, specifically because this is third person written. And so like, I think that that actually affects our compassion for Melanie because it's removed. However, as the...

Jonathan (18:09.162)
again, halfway mark, now I start to see, the characters get to start talking to each other because they found a bottle of whiskey and they're starting to share a little bit and we're learning a little more about the doctor and how crazy she is and all the things that you would normally find in a character-driven story. And so to me, the front half of this book is just slow and I don't see why.

Cause there's nothing that we pull back from like, yeah, that thing that happened in the beginning we needed to talk about again. Nope. It just took forever. So 36 chapters into the book was how long it took me to start liking this book and go, okay. We have some questions now. Like specifically, I remember the turning point. was chapter 35 where there's the hungry who's just sitting in the room flipping through his own old photos. And I'm like, okay, so there's more going on here.

But the thing is, you literally could have shown me that earlier. And maybe I'm just a dummy and don't understand the nuances of Carrie's writing for the first half of the book. But to me, it's just like, it was a really slow intro that should have just been cut. Like, speed it up.

I think you're a dummy and I'll tell you why.

great this is another Tuesday afternoon

Slava (19:27.682)
So, before I dove into the book, I looked up who Carrie was. was like, okay, comic writer, screenplay writer, multiple genre writer wants to write a book that's a new twist on the zombie genre. Somebody who's consumed a lot of zombie stories. All right. I know the typical zombie story. What is Carrie going to do? I'm reading it and it feels like a movie or a comic book serial.

There's a chapter, ends kind of abruptly sometimes or it ends on a cliff note. Okay. Cliff note, a cliffhanger. And then we go into the next thing before chapter 36. I already know. All right. Parks is this angry or at least he seems angry to the other characters like Melanie and Justin new. They view him as this angry guy. He's this grizzled war torn war worn and worn and war beaten guy.

He's a soldier who's seen some stuff, but he hates the Hungries and he hates the kids for a reason. So I'm anticipating that being revealed. I already know that there's something with this character that's driving him. Justinu has this compassion for the kids. And I'm assuming based on the previous couple of chapters or paragraphs, this is good writing. Carrie knows how to put together a story, put together sentences well.

to make a compelling story. So I'm like, there's something behind her showing this compassion and empathy towards his kids that goes above and beyond. There has to be something in her past. And the reveal of that was so satisfying because I was right and it was such a drastic and dramatic reveal. And then there's Melanie who's confused, who was kidnapped from parents who might've been alive or they might've been dead, but she was taking and she's now a lab rat. So to me,

All of them are trying to survive. my snarky voice memo to you, they're trying to survive. They are, but in all different ways. And the doctor who is a piece of crap. I know already from the first few moments of her interactions with the kids and then Justinu when she reprimands Justinu, I know that she has an insatiable chip on her shoulder drive to find the cure.

Slava (21:53.484)
And so I knew that he was setting us up for the reveals that we get in thirties and forties and fifties. And then even in the sixties, there's some stuff that you haven't gotten to. It's really great. I knew he was setting us up for something or at least I assumed it and I was right. And so that to me was what made the story great from the beginning. I thought it was well done. And I just put myself in the framework when the frame of mind put myself in the frame of mind.

saying this is a new twist, he's doing something different and he's written movies and comic books. So the way this is being chopped up is almost as a comic book slash movie in long form novel format. So that kind of curbed any of those things that I would agree with you. I would be like, yeah, where's the larger story? Why are we getting these snippets without any meat on the bone for

lack of a better term, but because I knew this is a new twist and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, if you will, there'll be reveals later. So that's how I viewed it and that made it very enjoyable.

Well see that's the difference between, I like to come in blind. I don't do any research beforehand. I want the story to speak for itself.

And I think it does though. think it does. If you remove the little bit of research I've done, which was a little bit about the writer and what else he's written. The fact that he said, I want a new view, a new way of telling a zombie story. If you take those two things away, you still have a story. maybe this is because I've read and consumed a lot of zombie stories before.

Slava (23:44.438)
I come to this blind, I see that it's a completely different twist on it from the beginning because now we have a little girl's perspective and very quickly you learn that she's also a zombie but she's a different kind of zombie. That's already a hook for me because of my love of zombie stories. If you leave that alone, to me that was enough of a hook to stay through and say, hey, you have these three characters who seem to have a backstory. There's something.

that Carrie is waiting to reveal to us. Without me knowing about the history of the author or any of his works, without that, I still have Sergeant Parks, who's this grizzled old soldier. I have Justinu, who seems to be different than everybody else by showing compassion to the kids. And I have a absolutely insanely driven chip on her shoulder scientist. I know that there's backstories to that.

And I'm just waiting for those to be revealed. Yeah, granted, I did some research, but I think without it, there's still enough of a hook, at least there was for me, to enjoy it from chapter one to 72.

I get that, but I'm not a newborn babe who's never read a story before. Sure, I haven't read as many zombie books as you have, but I knew, okay, this is a new twist. I could tell like, we're focusing on this little girl. My issue is pacing where it's like, yes, I understand there's going to be backstory, but I'm like, where is it? And the thing is I didn't ask this in chapter one. I'm on chapter 27 and I'm going, what are we doing? 27 chapters? Like, come on, 27.

There should be, there should be at least a little more earlier on in the story to give me more of a hook, to give me even just give me, forget the hook for a second, give me more character development earlier on instead of just like, I'm a trope, do do do do do. I'm a doctor. I'm a trope, do do do do do. It's like, which is how it felt. And I'm like, yes, I know there's, you know, let's say it's chapter 22. I know there's 50 more chapters, so I'm going to get something, but I'm waiting for the book to ask questions.

Jonathan (25:55.586)
that keep me engaged. And there were no questions. It's just like, hey, we're trying to survive. And it's like, okay, but that's not a story to me. That's just like, okay, that's fine. But like that doesn't keep me engaged. Does that make sense?

No, I understand what you're saying. We disagree on this because...

Well yeah, I'm not trying to convince you. But we are trying to convince you, audience. Wink, wink, fourth wall break.

And I'm not trying to convince you.

Slava (26:19.316)
No, I understand completely what you're saying. I'm not confused or somehow thinking you're absolutely inherently wrong by viewing the book in the way you did. I'm just saying there is a hook for readers like me.

but not for readers like me. Not people like me, huh? Don't serve your kind around here. So.

Not you people. For me, there was enough of a hook in the beginning because it was so different than any other zombie, and I know I'm impeding myself, than any other zombie story that I've consumed, read, watched, played a video game. It was so different that it kept me engaged. Having read as much as I have in my life, and especially for this podcast with a frame of mind that looks for certain things so we can discuss them with some.

enthusiasm for lack of a better term on the podcast, some passion and dissected. I'm dissecting chapter one, two, three, 13, 17. And for me, there was enough and we'll get into it in the plot episode next episode. To me, there was enough bits and pieces that kept me intrigued, even though we didn't get Justin's backstory until much later. We don't get Park's backstory until after we get Justin's news. We get.

question.

Slava (27:34.156)
very very little spent sprinkled through with the doctor. I think we get it pretty early. She has a chip on her shoulders. She was overlooked by her colleagues in a scientific world and she turns out to be right at end of the book or have a better grasp of the situation than her colleagues and that ends with her monologuing pretty much and explaining what is going on in the world and she's figured out the so-called cure.

Those little crumbs kept me engaged and you didn't see the crumbs just because of how you approached the story. That's fine

I saw the crumbs, but they weren't enough. Right? So, so, that's, and that's the thing that I didn't think that we, like you understood that I was saying is like, I'm not saying I didn't see the crumbs. I saw them and I went, okay, but why do I care? And so this is always the question I'm asking, which is why I like to go in blind on these books. I don't want to know that the author is like a lot of awards, a of, a lot of really great work. Cool. But like the story should speak to itself or speak for itself.

To me they weren't.

Jonathan (28:40.32)
And to me, it just like didn't for 36 chapters. You know, that's why I complained to you. was like, when's the story going to start? And you're like, it's a story about survival. I'm like, I got that, but the story hasn't started in my opinion. I'm not getting any character development. Like not really, because the thing is when you have characters together, character A wants something from character B, but it's got to be more than just like, well, we hope to survive.

Well, let me explain it. That was a tongue in cheek. Obviously it's more than just survival. You have this overarching theme of survival as with any zombie narrative, but you do have a teacher, Justinu, who is forced to assess and teach these kids who are zombies, but not yet mindless killing machines, beings that are completely overtaking by the zombie virus.

The kids, especially Melanie, because we get most of our time with her, all of our time with her really, she has human attributes. You have a doctor who's completely bereft of any empathy and treats them like worse than lab rats. And you have Parks and then you get introduced to Gallagher, think, who's, you know, a bit of a trope because he's that young soldier who later we find out ran away from home, but he's a bit of a coward.

or he's too green to really grasp the situations he's in, or he's too green to face it with the same resolve as Sergeant Parks does. So those things in isolation, to me, are interesting. I'm not seeking as much early on as you were or are. We can go around in circles with this. I think it's just perspective, and I think this is the fun part of this podcast. And I think this is second time where we've had a disagreement to such a degree.

I think this kind of stuff is what makes conversations like this fun. Cause it's a perspective. Like the story is, is what it is and you end up, you end up enjoying it and you are enjoying it now. And I think you'll enjoy the ending. I hope you do. This was make a book club fun where you can, you can banter back and forth.

Jonathan (30:50.968)
Yeah, not everybody has to like the same book. I mean, I think that's why we started the podcast, right? Are you referencing City in the City? What are you referencing?

I feel like there's one other book. No, it was Sitting in the City and then there was one short story.

I mean, we argued about Vivenna.

Jonathan (31:08.451)
Sand World. Beach World.

beach world. Yeah, because you said, so they're in this beach world and this guy is going insane. And there's this other guy who's, you know, doing his thing, trying to survive, but what's the beach world? Why are they here? And I said to you, it's a short story. They're in the spaceship and it crashes. And the fact that they crash on a world that's all sand and one guy's going insane should be compelling enough, should be interesting by itself.

You need a backstory of why they're traveling, what cargo they're carrying. Why is this beach world on their trajectory? It's a futuristic sci-fi horror where a guy crashes on a planet and goes insane. That should be compelling enough. That was my argument there. anyway, whatever that goes into that episode, if you'd like that's in the forties, I think these kinds of disagreements, these kinds of discussions is what makes stories fun because you can come to a story that's pretty straightforward. Zombies, doctors, cures.

Yes.

Slava (32:09.356)
little girls, that it doesn't matter if the little girl was a zombie or she was just an orphan and she's kind of thrown in this world with adults and I had to deal with her and they don't know how to because X, Y, and Z. Whatever the story is, it's more interesting when we get these kinds of discussions than when we fanboy out about Sanderson. Because we both love Sanderson. it just is. We both like King. We both like Will White. And I'm not comparing authors necessarily.

Not necessarily at all. don't want to compare the authors because that's a different conversation, but this is what makes conversations like this more robust, if I want to say, more.

Right, right.

I want to say interesting because I keep saying that word, but it makes this more fun, if you will.

Correct. So the episode you were talking about is Beachworld's episode 41. So you really close. But what do you guys think? Are you on team Slava or team Jonathan? Did this book do it for you? Or did you slog through the first half and go, what are we doing here? What's going on? So leave us some comments and let us know what you thought. If you've never read it, read it and give us your feedback. Give us your thoughts.

Slava (33:25.614)
All right, let's take a little side quest since we've done some heady- Simmer off from our heady, heavy conversation of stories and questions and character arcs. If you were infected, Jonathan, let's say you discover you're infected with the same fungal disease, but could still think like Melanie. So you're an adult Melanie. How would you convince others not to kill you? Then what would your hungry name be?

off a little bit.

Jonathan (33:50.734)
All right, so I was gonna wait till next episode to bring this up, but I have a theory based on the science that is communicated to us. I realize that it's not fully fleshed out and it's not a true disease, but why don't they just take people to dialysis centers and just clean the blood indefinitely until the parasite is gone? And I'm not looking for an answer. I was thinking about it, she's like, it's blood and spit. It's like, okay.

But those are the carriers.

Yeah. gosh. You'll learn so much more in sixties.

For those listening, I'm on chapter 58 or 56 or something like that. So I'm almost done with the book, but just didn't have enough time this week. So anyway, you asked if I discovered I was infected, how would I convince others to not kill me? And then what would my hungry name be? Well, my hungry name would be Sisyphus. For those who might not be aware, is the king in the myth where he pushes a boulder up the hill and he's trapped in Hades, although he escaped.

twice before, they say, okay, well, if you can push this boulder up a hill and get it to sit at the top, we'll let you go a third time from Hades. And he's like, okay, great, but it's all a big ruse by the gods that be, the powers that be. So I would say my name is Sisyphus. So that'd be my name. And how would I convince people not to kill me? I'd probably just threaten their families in front of them.

Slava (35:23.87)
okay. So you'd be dead within a couple of chapters because you'll meet Sergeant Park.

Probably before the first, yeah, probably before chapter 36, yeah.

If you meet Justin, you should be like, okay, please don't kill my family. We won't harm you. Then you meet Sergeant Parks and he'll just put a hollow point in your head and...

Well, so they'd have to first know that I was hungry, but that might take them a little while. I'd be lurking around in their,

think you snarling and sniffling and know, fulmin' in the mouth anytime they're around would kind of give it away.

Jonathan (35:55.806)
No, no, no, I have more decorum than that. What about you? What would you do to convince people not to kill you if you were hungry? And what would your name be?

goodness. My name.

What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

What's in the name?

Slava (36:17.166)
A zombie by any other name would foam as viciously. don't know if I, all the Hungries in this book have regular names. So I think I'll just be Pete. Pete the Hungry. Cause I have nothing. But how would I convince, which is a more interesting question. How would I convince others that I'm safe? I think I would try to do what Melanie does naturally is act like a human. Tell them like, Hey, yeah.

Once in a while I have an insatiable lust for tearing out your esophagus and munching on it with some fava beans. But I also like Shakespeare and I've read Sanderson. I'm on book three right now. Let me quote you a thing from chapter 55. I just act normal and try not to eat them. I guess, which is a less satisfactory answer than yours, maybe in some way, but how else would you do it?

I'm trying to be as realistic quote unquote as I possibly can. I would just act like a normal human. Pete the Hungry who quotes Shakespeare and Greek myths to them.

the presupposition that you could not to you and what you came against me with is like, well, you'd be foaming at the mouth if you're in their presence. So you're literally having the presupposition that like, well, you could do it, but I couldn't. like cool, cool story, bro.

Well, see, as a hungry you can read between the lines. That shows intellect and the ability to dissect words.

Jonathan (37:51.982)
I'm gonna mute you again.

Absolutely ridiculous.

I didn't even think of that, yeah, I assumed you'd be like a brainless, mindless, you know, monster. And here I am like...

I'm refined. I have decorum. You don't have decorum, but I have decorum. Cool Slava, cool. Jack Wagon.

Moving on into some of the characters. I like what you have in your notes. Obviously these notes are because you made it past chapter 36 and now you've gotten those backstories that you mentioned. Let's talk a little bit about some of the characters. First, I want to ask you a question, not on the template off notes. It just came to me. Which character do you like the best? And I'm not talking about, oh, like of course Melanie, because she's our protagonist and she's a little girl and we have to...

Slava (38:44.526)
You know, watch her go through these horrible things. So I have empathy for her, yada, yada, but which character do you think stood out to you or which one do you like the best? Even though they're bad, good or in different characters.

I mean, there's not a whole lot of characters to So, I guess I'd go with Parks because Justinu is gonna probably get eaten based on her own quote unquote compassion. Caldwell is trying to save humanity, but I understand that at least. reminds me of, Project Hail Mary. What was that, that lady's name? Who is the leader of the peoples?

Now there's like five.

Slava (39:24.594)
yeah. I forget, but yes.

Yeah, she reminds me of that, but I couldn't do a job like that. think I said that in the same episode. Like I couldn't do a job like that. Uh, or maybe I said the opposite. I don't remember, but Sergeant Parks is the, is the, is the go-to here for most relatable or enjoyable to me. Gallagher. mean, he's a kid, right? Like, honestly, I have more respect for Melanie than I do him. I realized he had a rough upbringing, but you got to work that stuff out. You can't just go be a meathead. It's not how it works.

I like Parks too, for the reasons you mentioned. And I like Caldwell, not because I think I'm on her side or I'm not on her side at all. But Caldwell, at first, you might think as you're getting to the book, she's just a two-dimensional, super evil doctor that, you know, just dissects kids while they're alive. Just horrible things. Ultimate pragmatist. But she's not two-dimensional. The more and more you read of her, whether what she says or...

descriptions of her from other point of views. Yeah, she's a piece of crap. She's bereft of any empathy or sympathy. It's all utilitarian, which taken to its conclusion, you get, you get Caldwell, but she's written in a way where she, I don't know what other way to say it. She's not two dimensional. And I've seen this in some of the reviews I read and I've kind of seen it hinted at.

at some of the YouTube videos where people are talking about the book and 98 % of them say the same thing. They say that it seems at first like she could turn into a two dimensional character, but she's not. And so I think points to Carrie for that because it's so easy just to make the bad guy this ultimate bad guy. That's fine. You can make a bad guy that's completely evil. Like the orcs in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, they're just evil.

Slava (41:26.808)
They're absolutely evil. They're supposed to be ultimate evil. But in this kind of story, it's so easy to make two dimensional characters with just one characteristics or two characteristics. They're just, they're just there to move the plot along. And I don't think Care did that with Caldwell. So for me, Parks, for the reasons you mentioned and Caldwell, because she's the bad guy so-called in this story, she's bad enough that you kind of hate her, but she's not two dimensional.

There is some depth to her. Now granted, here's where I'll agree with you because of how the story is chopped up and the crumbs that we get leading up to the finale, the build is slow, but it's not unsatisfactory to me. I'm not looking at Caldwell any differently from the first time we meet her to when she is doing the stuff she's going to do, which I won't spoil for you in the seventies and late sixties chapters.

So those two for me stand out. And Melanie, of course, is the protagonist and we can talk a little bit about her. She's kind of the cornerstone of Carrie's narrative. She's an enigma. She's part monster, part curious little girl. And her emotional growth over the course of the story allows Carrie to address the themes in the book, like what it means to be human and whether we are really so different than those we label as monsters. Melanie, you know, appears.

outwardly like any other child. She has a crush on her favorite teacher. She loves stories of Greek mythology. And she's also frightened by the unknown, especially Caldwell. And he, meaning Carrie, writes Melanie, this is one point where Melanie sends Justin to you for the first time and her true nature asserts herself. Like there's this transformation, which is kind of shocking.

where she's this little girl and then she wants to eat the teacher that she's in love with. Those moments really jump out on the page for the reader. And you see more of Melanie than anybody else and you kind of follow her. of course, protagonist, you're with her throughout the whole story. Circling back to the original point I was making, the two Caldwell and Parks.

Slava (43:46.432)
still kind of stood out to me more than anything. I I don't want to say more intrigued or more attached to them, but I think to use the dreaded word, they were slightly more interesting because we knew less about him than we did about Melanie. We're thrown into Melanie's world right away. She's a kid who's a zombie who also has sentience and empathy and emotion and will and intellect.

That's interesting enough. That's pretty damn great for whatever reason. I like Caldwell as a character, even though she was the bad guy.

think it's because you knew less about them, but rather that they are more easily understood.

Maybe, yeah, I'll buy that.

Because Melanie, you'll never understand what Melanie was like as Hungry. You don't know anyone in your life like this. It's just not plausible. And with the limitation of basically the five characters, right, you have the zombie girl, the teacher who's overtly compassionate, the cold doctor, the grizzled curmudgeon of a soldier, and his little buddy who I assume is gonna die at some point because he doesn't know how to protect himself.

Slava (44:36.59)
This is true.

Jonathan (45:01.838)
So those are the characters that we both like. The reason that Slava pointed out in my notes is I made a section that was like, are the goals of each character? Because this is one of my complaints of like, well, what are they trying to do? Because survive is just a generic thing. And so I'll read you the goals that I wrote down and you can tell me if you agree or disagree, audience. So Melanie's goal initially.

is to understand herself and her place in the world. And as the story unfolds, she seeks to protect those she cares about and comes to terms with her identity being both human and hungry. Miss Justinu is, her primary goal is to protect Melanie and she sees her as more than just a research subject or a danger and she wants to emphasize her humanity and potential. Dr. Caldwell's goal is driven by scientific obsession.

which, and this is one of my complaints, I don't think we see enough of in the earlier chapters. The biggest thing that speaks to this is her talking about pulling in the subjects and then starting to almost slice up Melanie. So hers is driven by scientific obsession and her goal is to develop a cure, which makes sense if the whole world is overrun, to the fungal infection plaguing humanity, even if it means sacrificing individuals.

like Melanie. Sergeant Park's goal is initially focused on survival and maintaining control, but his goal shifts towards the safety of the group and balancing practicality. Somehow he grows empathy for Melanie and the others, which seems a bit of a stretch, but I suspended my fear of belief. I suspended my fear of belief! And then Gallagher...

Our little boy is motivated by fear and survival and feels the flattest of the characters even though we get a little bit of a backstory. His goal is to navigate the harsh realities of the world while overcoming his inexperience and moral uncertainty. Those are the things that I had written down.

Slava (47:19.502)
I'll buy that for a dollar. Pretty much agree with all that. But let me ask you a question, another side quest. This one a little bit more silly. What would be your zombie snack preferences? We know that the Hungries are driven by their insatiable craving for flesh. If you had to create a hungry gourmet menu or a hungry gourmet dish, what dishes would you cook?

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (47:42.638)
are you asking me to create a dish out of human flesh?

Whatever works. You're a hungry. You know what you like. You know what they like in a story. What would be your go to snack?

not gonna put me on a list. Am I, well I'm one of the smart hungries, right? So I'm gonna start, I'm gonna go Hannibal on you. I'm gonna just start skinning people alive and I'm gonna take their skin and dehydrate it like jerky. Eat that as a snack for when I can't find some sort of other living creature. A dish, I had a really good lamb T-bone last night. So I might make.

a lamb I'll call it shepard's pie it's both lamb and human

the shepherd and okay. That's right. Well played. Since I am an amateur chef, I went a little bit more

Jonathan (48:31.726)
Well.

Jonathan (48:36.01)
I'm sure you did. I can't wait to hear the answer.

or may than you did. So for our appetizer, Jonathan, we have sauteed brain bruschetta. It's lightly toasted cerebellum on crispy bone marrow crostini, drizzled with spinal fluid reduction.

Wow, sounds super appetizing.

And for our main course, slow roasted rib bones glazed with blood caramel and paired with a side of crispy lung crisps. And of course, we can't forget dessert. We have eyeball eclairs, cream filled eyeballs dipped in dark chocolate with a drizzle of optic nerve caramel for that sweet savory finish.

You put a lot more thought into this than I did. And I'm glad that we don't live in the same state. Weirdo.

Slava (49:26.798)
Well at least I didn't serve you my other dessert option which is Spinal Cord Sundae. Scoops of frozen marrow topped with a sweetened nerve endings, drizzled with syrupy plasma and crowned with a cherry red corpsicle.

a cherry red corpsicle.

He could pair it with a refreshing blood splitzer or a robust bone broth martini. Bon Appetit.

Yes.

yes chef, I guess. Hungry chef.

Jonathan (50:08.182)
If you're enjoying today's side quest, rate the show to help others discover it. Join us in building this casual book

Jonathan (50:18.574)
So we've got a little bit of time left as this episode keeps going. Let's talk about a theme that stood out to you and then a ring around the rosy of this specific genre. And then we will bring this episode to a close.

All right. I have one that I really want to talk about and I think my fear of children will be for next episode, but for this episode, the heart necessity, a reason versus the emotional comfort of empathy. And for those who are wondering how did Slava come up with that, I want to give another shout out to supersummary.com. They're kind of like a Cliff Notes version of well,

of children.

Slava (51:01.56)
They are a version of Cliff nuts and I have a subscription to them and I use it sometimes to help me come up with the themes and discuss the theme will come up. I pretty much take the themes that they have. And then we kind of import that into, into our, into our episodes here, but that one, I don't know if I would have worded it that way, but you have the pragmatism, the utilitarianism of Caldwell and you have the empathy of Justin new. And so the guys at super summary.

named it what they named it but I want to talk about that because that's a big one and it carries from the beginning to the end of the book.

Okay, so the hard necessity of reason versus the emotional comfort of empathy. You're going to have to unpack this a little bit more. I'm going to pretend to be the audience and pretend that I don't know what you're talking about because, okay, the necessity of reason, let's first define that and then why it's the hard necessity of reason and then I'm going to need you to emotional comfort of empathy.

I think it's a good topic, but it's not simple enough for me or our listeners.

You hear that listeners? That's what Jonathan thinks of you.

Jonathan (52:18.924)
I'm a genius level hungry, buddy.

With no decorum. All right. So the hard necessity of reason versus the emotional comfort and empathy. If we're going to boil it down to something less heady, it's a debate between reason and emotion. Something that's timeless. Humans are capable of both, but this debate implies that one is more vital than the other for the survival of people in the world. And I think Carey kind of dives in head first into this argument with specifically Caldwell and Justinian. Caldwell is objective.

to the extreme, refusing to acknowledge any other truth than what she can place under a microscope. And her drive to your point earlier, she wants to find a cure. Even after Melanie risks her life to save the others, Caldwell only sees this as behavior in terms of clinical theories that needs testing. So even when Melanie shows her human side, Caldwell is like, well, this needs to be tested. While Justin says, no, no, no, no.

This is proof that she is also human and deserving of empathy. She is not a mindless zombie. She's not a mindless ravenous hungry. And Caldwell, even, I can't spoil it for you, but her views of life and death and her place in the world is approached with detachment. I'm going to put it that way. So I don't want to. And she's racing to complete her, her research.

I'm Sean.

Slava (53:49.324)
That's the only thing that's driving her. The race for her is to complete her research, to find a cure. On the other side of the spectrum, we got Justinu. She's ruled by emotion to some degree. Her passion as a teacher, as a person, her empathy towards these kids, that's what drives her. And that's what drives her protectiveness of Melanie. What I was right about, and I won't spoil it completely, it be like a 40 % spoiler.

her protectiveness of Melanie has roots in the sins of her past.

Yeah, when she was drunk she talked about killing a kid. Yeah, she already, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. happened earlier.

so you know that, yes.

Okay, good. So we see that her empathy for the children is genuine. We see the lack of empathy from Caldwell as, I don't want to use the word genuine here, but it's also fueled by her past. It's also fueled by what she thinks is the ultimate good. So Justin who thinks the ultimate good is to yes, find a cure, but the way you get there,

Slava (54:58.266)
is not the way Caldwell is going about it. So Justinu sees these kids as humans because of what they exhibit that's human-like, where Caldwell sees it as just a thing to study because her ultimate goal is survival of the human race. Melanie is just a means to an end. While Justinu has the same goal, I think, in mind, she

at least desires for humanity to be saved. She desires for the Hungarians to be eradicated or stopped or a cure to be found. She doesn't see Melanie as just a means to that ultimate end. She thinks there could be a better, more ethical way of going about it. Where for Caldwell to ethics, I think she still has ethics, but her ethics are completely different. They're more utilitarian. So that is what.

The hard necessity of reason versus the emotional comfort empathy boiled down to is.

Yeah, so this sounds like when we talked with the guys last time in Uncrowned and we briefly went over the trolley problem. Do we save the rest of the world by sacrificing Melanie to find an answer, which is the hard necessity of reason, or by post-poking tests and whatever, or do we lean into the emotional comfort of Melanie is both human and hungry, so we shouldn't have to kill her or sacrifice her or whatever is required for testing?

That's the question here. Is that right?

Slava (56:33.07)
Yes, right. And Kerry gives weight to both sides of the debate. So he prompts us to grapple with these moral questions. Whether a cure is worth the inhumane treatment of innocent children or whether empathy is sometimes a deadly choice, regardless how good it feels. That's Caldwell, the latter part there.

And you ask me where I fall on this argument? Yeah.

Or back and forth. You don't have to give a direct answer. Maybe you don't have an answer.

So.

Jonathan (57:01.422)
I got an answer for everything, bucko. I'll have you remember. Back in 77 on the beach. You remember that?

Of course you do.

Slava (57:10.222)
with Tyler and narrator. Yeah, I remember that. I forget.

so we, I mean, we lived this out during COVID. It was like, well, what's the greater good. And the powers that be made that decision for everyone. Right. So there was a study of a woman, I want to say she had tuberculosis, but she was immune to it, but she was giving it to everybody else back in like the sixties. I'd have to look up the full details. They ended up locking her up and the ethical question came up where it's like, she's fine.

But she's causing a bunch of issues in society biologically. Well, what do you do? And I don't remember how the story ends, but like, I remember a friend of mine telling me that and I was like, shoot, that's a difficult one. Cause it's like, if she's fine and she's just living her life, but she's ending up giving, ending up killing people, not on purpose, but she just like, it's easy to go, well, lock her up. But it's like, well, what if she's your mother or sister or whatever? It's a difficult question because.

We're also a country that says every human has the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right? So it doesn't seem like happiness or pursuit of their, of their, their end to have her locked up or life or liberty. So, you know, how do you, how do you measure these things? And it's like, I'm glad that I don't, uh, I don't have to make decisions like this outside of, you know, from, my family and I, because, um, I think that you need to take pieces of Melanie and do testing.

because it does save more people. But is there an ethical way to do that? Yeah, probably. But it requires materials and resources and whatever, which they don't have in the book. And so it's always better to have more data samples and a resource you could go to to go back and get more samples. So I would think you'd want to start with blood first, if she even has that, I don't know. And then maybe a finger because maybe she can find a way to do it. Right? Like, who knows? But,

Jonathan (59:11.758)
Yeah, think most, I think a lot of people would just jump on whatever boat they lean toward, whether it's like, well, we should make sure we save everyone. And then other people would be like, no, we need to make sure to take care of people. I used to work with a person who, I made a comment one time at one of our company parties. I was like, well, what do you, you know, what do you think about, I don't even know how I brought it up. I was like, what do you think about, you know, helping people with cancer because we tested it on animals. And she was like, oh no.

No, no, never. That's awful. And I'm just thinking like, it's awful until your kid has cancer, right? Like these scientists who do this ethically don't get enjoyment of doing this necessarily. Caldwell, different story. But least my opinion, how I read it. they don't ethically, ethically they don't get joy from causing pain to rats, right? Let's just use rats. But you know what?

somebody's son or daughter is now able to live because they did that testing and they were able to find whatever or like an even more difficult story with I think it was leukemia Malcolm Gladwell has this thing in I don't think it was what the dog saw I think it was it's not the tipping point it's not outliers the thin slicing book blink I think it was blink he looks at how they found a cure and concoction a cocktail for leukemia in children

And man, it's a, it's a, it's a brutal story. Like this one scientist is like, no, I can help save these kids. But like, because they didn't have an answer yet, the treatments he was giving him were test treatments and it was causing them more pain. But now today we have really good treatments for the first few stages of leukemia. Like you should, you should go read it. It might not be blank, but it was definitely Malcolm Gladwell who wrote the book. And like, he looks at this.

the journey of one doctor fighting against the odds to bring a cure to these kids because he did care about these kids, but he knew he held the tension between both of these, the necessity for reason and the empathy because he's like, I care about these kids, but I have to do this because he needed to find an answer to helping them solve their leukemia cancer problem. And he's like, it's not going to feel good. So.

Slava (01:01:34.734)
Yeah, that's a fascinating story. I think I want to go read it now. And it's a fascinating debate, but to bring it back to In World for our book here in post-apocalyptic England, for Carrie as the author, and here's me attempting to understand what he wanted to do. In the end, I think Justin U wins the debate in so far as the debate is winnable in the world in this context, right?

Love for Melanie pays some dividends despite its risks. Melanie repays this debt by rescuing the survivors with her courage and cleverness. And without Justinu's nurturing, it's doubtful that Melanie would have evolved to the point that she does by the end of the book or even to risk herself later for Parks and Justinu. And you'll get to some of that. I think you've already seen a bit of it in Where You Are.

In the end, think through the character of Justinu, Kerry pays some homage, if you will, for caring, supportive teachers who had, who would take a kid who's a can get right or a kid who everybody else has given up on and push him to become greater and better people.

It's a little bit of a stretch, I think.

I wouldn't say a little bit of a stretch. think, you know, it goes back to the perspective portion of our episode. A person could see a story and say, Hey, I remember when I was a kid and there's some teachers who pay attention to me. For me, that's true. I was a can get right kid and we discussed why, but there were teachers, second fathers, older brothers. There were teachers specifically who helped me view the world in a different way and view myself in a different way. Now, obviously zombies and.

Jonathan (01:03:24.788)
That is why I'm saying it's a stretch, it's the zombie part of it, not because teachers don't actually do that for kids.

You can pull out applications to your own life or real life quote unquote from even completely fictional post-apocalyptic world stories that might not have any basis in reality, apart from some of the scientific stuff that Carrie puts in here. You can pull out applications and that's what I'm pulling out. I don't think it's a stretch.

up for me. was hassling you. was hassling you. One point to Gryffindor over here. Slytherin. Not surprised. I'm actually Ravenclaw. One point to Gryffindor sounds better to quote the book. So thanks for joining us on today's episode everyone. Be sure to share this with your other book-loving friends. It helps other listeners.

I'm Slytherin.

Jonathan (01:04:19.778)
discover side quests and join us next time for more adventures. Until then, happy questing!