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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:00.046)
Are you ready to, are you ready to roll?
Alex Larson (00:02.334)
Yeah, I'm ready. Let's do it.
Tyson (00:04.75)
So I reckon, uh, one of the most heated podcasts that I've ever done. I had Phil Maffetone on here maybe three or four months ago, and I absolutely loved the conversation. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but he's the man behind the Maffetone method. And a lot of his method is based around heart rate. And it's also based around fueling with fat. And I was really curious to pick his brain and talk to him. And I mean, he's a, I don't know how old he's, I don't want to add fake.
Alex Larson (00:25.982)
Oh yeah.
Tyson (00:33.198)
years to his, uh, to his age, but he must be 70 beautiful guy. Um, incredible message, been around for a long time. A lot of like the conversation was incredible and I posted it and it was one of the most popular episodes I've ever posted, but I could not believe the passion of the email is coming through from distance runners who were frustrated at me for, um, you know, giving this guy a megaphone to, to speak. And I thought, Oh, isn't it interesting that.
It is for as long as I can remember the subject of diet and nutrition. It's a heated conversation, regardless of what field, whether you're a vegan or a carnivore or somewhere in between. And so I thought it'd be really great to have you on because I love hearing all sides to the conversation and picking brains. Yeah.
Alex Larson (01:17.374)
I mean, I do too. I think like there is a good debate in this as well. I mean, for me, I like to look at like the athlete community as a whole and thinking of all the different scenarios out there that people are in and how is, you know, nutrition going to benefit the whole community the best. And, you know, the whole.
fat adaptation conversation. There's a lot of people that are super passionate about it. And there are, I mean, there is some research out there on it now. The thing is, is that the research shows that it is not superior to fueling with carbs. And so that's the thing, like, they're so passionate about it, but I'm like, yeah, the evidence is it's not any better. So like, I'm great that it works for you, but it's not for everyone. That's why you have to like make sure that you...
Tyson (02:05.134)
Well, that was sort of where I... Yeah.
Alex Larson (02:12.03)
You understand that you have to treat yourself as an individual and find what works best for you.
Tyson (02:17.07)
sure. I'm certainly open to like the idea of trying anything. I'm not trying to qualify for the Olympics at the moment. I'm just out there enduring running. But what was so funny about the conversation was so much of the heat was aimed as though I was some fat -fueled athlete that was preaching about the benefits. I'm like, no, no, I'm fairly traditional in the way that I approach my own fueling for all of my training. I was just curious to have the conversation. But yeah, that was one thing that really stood out to me is, I mean, you look at the world's best marathon runners and
Alex Larson (02:23.102)
Me either.
Alex Larson (02:32.862)
Mm.
Alex Larson (02:37.726)
Yeah.
Tyson (02:45.294)
I don't know if any in the top 10 are fat -fueled athletes. I mean, every athlete seems to be still carb loading.
Alex Larson (02:48.83)
None of them are. No. I mean, even like with, you know, our Kenyan runners, it's like 70, 80 % of their diet is carbohydrate. It's very high carb. So yeah, I would say that the only time that really fat adaptation works well is probably with the ultra runners because you're typically going at a much lower effort rate where, you know, and he...
the person you talked about, I forgot their name, Phil. For him and his method of heart rate training, that makes sense where you're going at a lower zone heart rate, where you're going to be burning more fuel as fat. And so that would work for more of the ultra distance runners because they're going at that kind of more consistent heart rate pace. But if they're wanting to sprint to the finish,
Tyson (03:21.166)
Ah, film a photo. Yeah.
Alex Larson (03:45.246)
or like really power up a hill, they're not going to have that effort available to them. And you have to be mentally aware that that's not going to happen. Like, so for, you know, a marathoner that wants to go at a much higher effort than that you would in an ultra distance race, usually FED adaptation wouldn't work as well.
Tyson (04:04.334)
Yeah. So where does an athlete start when they're trying to navigate this? Because I'm sure, um, as I said to you before, we started recording. Like, I think there's a lot of athletes who listen to this podcast who are probably in their first two or three years of, of running. Like, obviously there's going to be many exceptions to that rule, but the conversation is interesting because it can be overwhelming. If you type in, um, just nutrition for endurance, just the bare minimum, like we've just scratched the surface there with like fat adaptation and.
fueling by fat and then carbs and like how much and do we need gels? And these are a few things that I was really keen to delve in with you today because one thing that I've realized or one thing that I've started to pick up over the last couple of months, especially as I've started to train a little more specifically for marathon running, I've just sort of made a return in the last 12 months. So I'm keen to give it a good crack, but I'm also very...
conscious of the food that I eat. Like I'm really passionate about trying to eat as clean as I can. Like my diet would be 95 % plant -based, like quite clean fruits, veggies. I feel good when I eat just good, clean, natural food. But the flip side of that is the more I go out and the more I run, the more I learn about jowls, the more I learn about sodium tablets and things like that.
The more I recognize perhaps a really solid need through training to replace some of these things that you're using as you go. But the, um, the little hurdle that I find myself trying to navigate is, um, I feel as though at times, sometimes as a distance runner, I sacrifice health through those things in the name of performance. And I don't know if there's like a happy balance that you can strike with these things. And what I mean is like a lot of the gels and drinks and things that I am using to help supplement the additional work.
Like they're fairly highly processed. Um, and that's like another angle to the conversation we could take, but I mean, we'll get to all of that, I guess, maybe as a way to plant or provide a little scaffold to the conversation. I thought, um, Alex, if, if you had a relatively new distance runner who fits the criteria of what it is that I just explained to the listener to this podcast, where do you even start the conversation around coming up with a plan that suits not only their own sort of health standards, but they're, they're running goals.
Alex Larson (05:51.742)
Mm -hmm.
Tyson (06:19.694)
Um, and beliefs about nutrition in general, it's a really broad conversation to start.
Alex Larson (06:25.246)
That is a really broad question. Thank you for that. I have to think in my head how I want to answer it. All right. So keep in mind that my philosophy with nutrition is keep it as simple as possible. Okay. So I'm going to break this down into two main areas where I would tackle working with a kind of newbie runner. Um,
Tyson (06:28.59)
Feel free to take that from any angle.
Alex Larson (06:51.614)
First bucket of area that we can look at is how you're feeling around your workouts. So before your workout, during a workout, if it's long enough, post -workout, like initiating that recovery, talking about hydration, electrolytes, looking at those things. And we're not gonna revamp everything overnight. You really have to just start with some of the basic things like, oh, you're gonna go out for a run. Let's start practicing how you're gonna feel beforehand. We're gonna look for some...
very simple, easy to digest carbohydrates to just get started in that kind of world of fueling before your workouts because we want to get some nice carbs in there, fresh energy can use to supply that energy to have a really great run workout. I'll give you an example of if I get up at 530 in the morning to meet my friend for just a quick little half an hour run before we start our day.
I will grab one of those little applesauce pouches that my kids love to have as snacks in the car when we're bustling around life. It's like 12 grams, 15 grams of carbs somewhere in there. I will just take one of them about 10 minutes before I start my run with my friend. And if I don't have that little bit of applesauce, I can tell in the last 10 minutes of our half an hour run. There's just something about those last like...
you know, half a mile where I'm like, oh, I just feel like I'm just a little extra tired today. And then I'll think back and be like, oh, shoot, that's because I skipped my applesauce this morning. Just that little bit of fresh energy, especially right away and early in the morning just gets me through that quick little jaunt that I do, you know, during the weekdays or on the weekends. If I'm going to be doing a longer Saturday morning run, I might make sure I get up a little bit extra early and I might have a couple of pancakes with some pancake syrup.
really nice high carb and it always sits really well for me in my stomach and fuels me really well. It gets me a good head start on my energy for that long run. And then depending on how long it is, is my long run 50 minutes an hour or is it like 90 minutes plus? If it's getting over that 75 minute mark, that's when we really need to start looking at incorporating some fuel during that run. And
Alex Larson (09:13.342)
And this is kind of an interesting debate. You know, you're really into like the clean eating. You're concerned about the processed sugar. I actually just posted about this the other day on Instagram where I said, you know, processed sugar in sports fuel versus like sugar coming from natural sources like maple syrup or some of the gels that might have more like a food based ingredients. Our body honestly can't tell the difference. Like they're
It's just energy to our body. And so whether your preference is either or, all I care about is that you're getting enough fuel so that you have a really great workout and you're not finishing that run feeling like absolute trash and like bonking, you know, hitting a wall halfway through the run. Like my goal for our athletes is that you feel great. We keep you healthy. We keep you, you know, in a, as least amount of stress to state as possible. Cause exercise is a lot of stress. So if we can fuel you really well,
We're lowering that stress threshold and you're going to recover a lot faster as well. So those are like some of the basic things that I look at with bucket number one is how you're fueling around your workout and trying to keep it as simple as possible and trying to find fuel products that people like that people can afford. Cause some of the gels these days are just ridiculously expensive. So, you know, working with their budget as well. Um, and then the other bucket that we look at is your day to day nutrition.
And that's one where I think people really kind of struggle with, especially when you're starting to get more miles on you with your workouts. People notice that their appetite will increase greatly. And they're like, oh, how do I navigate this? I was hoping to actually lose a few pounds as I start running. And here I'm like eating all the time. And like my weight loss goals are now becoming like I'm seeing the opposite result.
And so navigating that, like, what do you do with this ferocious appetite all of a sudden because you're starting to exercise and put more miles on? How do you recover from your workouts, too? You notice at the end of the week after putting in some, you know, more miles that week than usual, and you're you're tired, you're exhausted. You finish that long run and you just want to take a nap the whole rest of the day. You're trying to, you know, armchair parent, you know, because you're so tired. You can't even get up and.
Alex Larson (11:34.814)
and hang out with your kids or feel like cleaning the house or cooking. That's another side effect too, is that you're just so much more tired. So that day -to -day nutrition is another key piece where I will say, okay, let's hone in on some of the basics. Are you eating consistently throughout the day? Are you skipping meals? If you're skipping meals, okay, let's talk about your schedule. How can we get a breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then maybe filling in some gaps with some snacking to make sure you're getting enough to eat and we're getting the right.
balance of nutrition to really promote recovery from your workout that you did today and then also prep you for tomorrow's workout so you can have consistently great performances and see those fitness gains and getting faster being able to go farther and still having the energy the rest of the day to be a very productive adult. Like that's where I hone in on those two main areas.
Tyson (12:24.974)
Yeah.
That's really good. Let me just rewind to something you said. I just want to make sure I understood it right. So in regards to what you said in the first bucket, when it comes to the fueling with gels, were you saying your body doesn't really understand whether it's coming from an actual fueling gel or whether it's coming from like a maple syrup or apple sauce. It just wants to know that the, it just wants that energy.
Alex Larson (12:43.646)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, think about like, you know, cane sugar. I mean, cane sugar is a plant. It's just processed to be just straight sugar when you're consuming it. And so they're they're taking out some of the other extra things that are in cane sugar so that it's just refined. And so that what is nice about the processed sugar is that it gets digested very, very, very quickly and that energy can get supplied to your muscles and keep you going at.
that paste that you're hoping to do. Same like with maple syrup that gets broken down very similar or like honey or whatever natural sources. Our body is not going to say, oh, this is a natural source. It's healthier for me. Like the minerals and vitamins that might come in like a natural sugar source are so traced. They're so minimal that like I, to me, doesn't it doesn't make that big of a difference.
I would rather that we focus on the rest of the day when you're eating meals and snacks for you to get your vitamins and minerals than like the trace amounts you're going to get from natural sugars. But again, it's personal preference. And you know, I have, we've got some Canadian athletes who like adore maple syrup. They have it like in gallon jugs above their fridge. And I'm like, yeah, let's use that to fuel your workouts. Like that's great. You know, there's got plenty of maple syrup up there in Canada. So let's use that to our advantage.
Tyson (13:50.446)
That's such a good point. For sure.
Tyson (14:07.246)
That's a, yeah, it's such a good point. I mean, it's such an all or nothing approach to training that I take. I like the idea of sometimes just painting with a broad brush and going, all right, if I'm going to be healthy, let's keep it healthy. But, uh, I guess the, the truth is if the goal is to try and fuel your performance, you're right. That goal in that moment is not necessarily how many valuable nutrients am I going to get out of this actual applesauce or this, uh, this gel that I'm using it's okay. How does this help me maintain the pace that I'm trying to run for as long as up as possible? I guess.
Maybe the flip side of that is often I'll go, okay, well, if I need to do gels, I need to do gels. Let's use them each run whenever I'm out there trying to make sure when that's probably overkill as well. So what was your, what was your threshold? Did you say it was around 90 minutes plus is when you start looking at using gel?
Alex Larson (14:51.614)
Yeah, usually around like 75, 90 minutes, depending on your effort level. If you're, think of yourself as like a battery. So, I mean, the harder effort you're going to go, the faster you're going to burn through that muscle glycogen, that carbs energy that you have available to use. And so if you're doing a pretty hard effort, you might be starting to feel fatigue at like 75 minutes. So at that point I'd be like, well, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't hurt you to have, you know, the 45 minute mark, some fuel at that point. It could be gels.
It could be a hydration carb mix in a bottle that you carry on you. It could be energy chews, waffles, whatever floats your boat in terms of fuel choices. The name of the game is just some simple carbs that are going to get digested very quickly. We want it to empty from the stomach very, very quickly so that it's not sitting there for a longer period of time because the longer it sits in our stomach, the more we're at risk for having nausea, heartburn.
Vomiting like none of that good stuff. We want things to get emptied from our stomach very quickly get used as energy and that simple sugar is Really what we're looking for there and you know with with the other thing too, I have a new athlete that she's she's a triathlete and she always has been having GI issues in her runs of her longer races and when I looked at what she was fueling with she was using a lot of
that came from more like food -based sugar sources, but there also was quite a bit of fiber in those gels. And so between all, cumulatively all of the gels that she was taking, she was actually getting a really high dose of fiber. And I was like, this could possibly be the reason why at the very end of your long distance ultra races, you're having some GI issues because of all of this fiber.
So that was something where I'm like, let's maybe switch some of your fuel options and see if we can alleviate that. And we were doing more hydration mixes in our bottles for the bike too, to help just get enough carbs in per hour.
Tyson (16:58.446)
Yeah. So I know you said before your early morning runs with your friends, you'll fuel on the apple sauce just as little pick you up at the end of that run. But when it comes to that longer, um, sort of 75 to 90 minute runs, what is it that you're carrying with you? If you've got a preference when it comes to jowls or, um, hydration.
Alex Larson (17:03.614)
Yes.
Alex Larson (17:15.966)
I've got, I like like a lot of different gels now. I used to not be a gel girl and now I'm kind of partial of them. I like Morton. I just don't like the price tag on it, but I do think it's a really nice product. Spring Energy has their awesome sauce and it really is awesome. It is delicious. It's like apple pie and it's got a little bit different texture because they use like a basmati rice in there.
But there's 45 grams of carbonate per gel and it's not like an overly huge gel. So it really is very dense. So I feel like for my money, I am getting more carbs, which is kind of nice. I also like the Cis Beta Fuel products, a little bit newer product. That one goes up to 40 grams, I believe. And that one, I've had a lot of athletes that really like that one as well. It's a little bit thinner texture than the Morton because Morton's a very unique.
texture, it's very like thick jello, gelatinous. And so some people don't really care for that texture. So those are probably some of my favorite ones. I have like a whole collection of them in my office. I feel like every every other week I'm ordering something from the feed to trial sample sizes of stuff because I just nerd out on all of the different sports fuel.
Tyson (18:36.142)
Hey, do you, one of those things that you've nailed is the price tag. Like sometimes that can be the scariest part of it. Um, I don't know if you'd use precision fuel and hydration before that actually like full disclosure, they'd been a sponsor of the show before. So they were the only, their only product that I'd use, uh, you know, when it came to fueling and hydration, because they were hooked.
Alex Larson (18:48.734)
Yeah.
Alex Larson (18:53.982)
Yeah, actually I have quite a few athletes right now that are using precision hydration and I do like for their mix that has no sodium in it and so it's just carb only and then you can use their capsules to like add that into your bottles so that you basically can tailor it to what your sodium needs are and what your carb needs are. I think that's actually quite smart with precision hydration.
I wish they just had some different flavors because I know it's a citrusy flavor and I'm just, I'm more of a berry girl personally, or obviously apple. So yeah, the citrusy flavors, I'm like, I need like a strawberry lemonade flavor, precision hydration. Like, come on, give me a little variety in flavor.
Tyson (19:21.518)
Yeah.
Tyson (19:40.014)
I'll link him in this episode and I'll say, hey, come on, Alex, you'd be a supporter if you just got some very flavors going.
Alex Larson (19:42.398)
There you go. Yeah, I'm gonna, we're gonna meet with, I'm going to a sports nutrition conference here in a few weeks. I'm gonna meet with their sports statistician and one of their reps. So I'm excited to learn more about their stuff.
Tyson (19:54.958)
Ah, is that Andy, is that Andy Blow or is that one of the other?
Alex Larson (19:58.974)
Um, the dietician. I'm trying to think what her name is.
Tyson (20:02.574)
Oh, sorry. No, it wouldn't be the dietitian. I think Andy Blow, he's the founder. I think he's a sports scientist. Um, but I'm not sure. I know they've got quite a number of staff now. So there's probably someone else. Interesting. I saw Andy, uh, the founder was in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago and, um, yeah, I was trying to catch up with him as well, but he's a, he's a busy man. He's a popular man with a, with plenty of products to sell. So we didn't quite get a chance, but the whole team seems really good. The, the sodium point you made was, was really interesting. Cause that's another thing that I've started to.
Alex Larson (20:07.998)
Yeah.
Tyson (20:32.27)
uh, dip my toes into learning about more because for as long as I can remember, I was never overly interested in nutrition when I was racing at my best, ironically enough. Um, it's something that as I'm. Yeah.
Alex Larson (20:42.75)
Same, same, right? That's what got me started in this whole thing was like, I sort of know what I was doing. But then, yeah, when I did Ironman Wisconsin back in 2014, and I did fine in the race. Like, I like in my nutrition, what we knew about sports nutrition at the time is what I did. But now that we know so much more, I look back and like, gosh, I was under fueled. I could have had such a better experience in a better race. And so someday when my kids are older, maybe I'll redeem myself and do another one.
and be better fueled. But yeah, like same, I get that.
Tyson (21:12.078)
Yeah, I was...
Tyson (21:16.91)
I was such a 90s kid, I was born in 87. So my whole philosophy, I always thought I was interested in health growing up and my version of health was, oh, it's 98 % fat free, look how healthy that is. And I mean, I've got the feelings to prove it. And so, I mean, thank God I've learned over the last few years that the road that I was on was not healthy at all. But one of the big learnings was around this conversation of sodium because a misconception I had was, hey, you want to be hydrated.
just smash water, that's your way to hydration. That's the way to make sure that you're getting to the start line well and truly fueled. But this idea around sodium being one of the things that actually helps you absorb the fluid that you intake more effectively is really interesting. And I know I've used some of the thousand milligram sodium tablets, sort of pre and post a number of my longer harder runs, the precision's given me.
And I mean, it's, I don't know how much is placebo, but I love the idea of going out into a run and being like, Oh, I'm all sodium up. Like I must be hydrated. Um, can you speak to that a little more? Because you're right. Like I've got a carbon sodium mix, which I think is more of a, like a race day concoction that they offer, which I honestly haven't used that much, but I've sort of for reasons I mentioned earlier, been in and out of using sodium tablets, because in my mind I'm being Mr. Healthy. And I'm like, Oh, you know what? I'll just try and.
fuel with like the potassiums and sodiums and whatever else I'll get from like coconut water. But I'm sure when it comes to race day preparation, that's perhaps not the most effective way to get ready for it.
Alex Larson (22:49.086)
Yeah, what's interesting about sodium is that every individual is very different in what their sodium needs are and there's a very wide range. There are some people that aren't very salty sweaters and they might be losing like per liter of sweat, like 250 milligrams of sodium. That would be like the very lowest all the way up to like 2200 milligrams of sodium per liter of sweat loss. I mean, it's a very...
vast range of sodium loss that we see in athletes. I would say on average it's probably somewhere around a thousand milligrams. But again, it depends. And so there's a couple options that you can do. Precision hydration does have a really nice testing that you can do where they put little electrodes on your skin and it causes that area of the skin to sweat really heavily. And then they'll analyze your sweat and give you an idea of what type of...
sodium concentration you should have in your fluids to just maintain that sodium level in your blood because what happens for a lot of athletes is they'll drink a lot of water during their race and they're sweating really heavily and then what ends up happening is their sodium plasma levels in their blood gets low and it's called hyponatremia. It's actually pretty darn serious. If it's not treated, you can end up very much in the hospital and it can kill you.
So it's not something you want to mess with. And so if you're someone that when you sweat really heavily and you notice that you have a lot of like salt stains on your clothing after the sweat dries, it's probably an indicator that you should get a little bit, be a little bit more curious about what your actual electrolyte losses are so that you can make sure that you're staying safe out on the race course, especially in this hot and humid. Well, I guess you guys are coming into winter, but up here.
the states. It's going to be summer, it's going to be hot. Having some sort of electrolyte in your fluids does really help with rehydration. Usually if you're just drinking plain water, a lot of times it's just going to trigger urine output, whereas we want to make sure that we're retaining those fluids and using them to keep ourselves hydrated. Having a little bit of carbs also in your fluids also helps with rehydration too.
Alex Larson (25:05.694)
I think the research says like a 6 % carb based amount in your fluids will really help with rehydration too. So when you see like electrolyte packets and they'll have a little bit of carbs in there, have a good amount of sodium, that's wise. Cause they're really honing in on that science so that you're rehydrating that just dragging fluids and then peeing it out.
Tyson (25:28.59)
Yeah, sure. I mean, this is another really broad question essentially, because I can imagine it's so individualized, but when it comes to hydration, you often hear that you need eight glasses of water a day at a bare minimum. Have you got any sort of factors that you help your athletes work through when it comes to that? Because this is, it's so funny, I'm 37 now and it's still one question that at the end of each day I'm like, have I had enough water today? And the truth is I never know what the answer is. I can never quite tell.
Alex Larson (25:39.486)
Hahaha.
Alex Larson (25:56.03)
Yeah, well, it's going to depend on how much you're how active you are to you. Obviously, you're going to rehydrate, you know, during and after your workouts, but then throughout the rest of the day, I think it's really good practice to always have some fluids on you and staying hydrated throughout the day. They say and this is going to be in in pounds like with our silly US, you know, imperial system here. But so they say you take your weight in pounds in half and that's how many ounces you should drink. So I don't even know what the.
Tyson (26:18.382)
Hehehehe
Alex Larson (26:25.502)
equivalent is with the metric system. But you need and then on top of that you need to make sure that you're replenishing what you lose in you know through sweat through your exercise. But another really simple indicator would be just being aware of how often are you going to the bathroom? What color is your urine? Is it more like lemonade color? If it is perfect, if it's more apple juice color then that's not good. So you want to make sure that you drink a little bit more.
Also, I've had some athletes where we start working with them and I'm having them hydrate more and they're like, oh my gosh, I got done with my workout and it didn't hurt to pee and my pee wasn't brown. And I'm like, oh my God, like horrified. And I'm so glad that we're working together and we're keeping you healthy. So like your kidneys are thanking me. So, so, so yeah, I mean, those.
Tyson (27:14.254)
That's so pretty.
Alex Larson (27:19.614)
those can be really classic indicators and just making sure that you're going to the bathroom throughout the day and that your urine is staying more of a pale yellow. If your urine is clear, sometimes people pride themselves on having clear pee and I'm like, oh, that's obviously a little over hydrated at that point. So you want it to be just a little tint of yellow in there.
Tyson (27:40.206)
Yeah, that's so funny. Isn't that true? If I ever go to the toilet and it's clear, I think I'm the king. I'm like, okay, it's a sign of success for my hydration plan that day. Hey, you mentioned, sorry, like you're going to be so used to the oversharing factor here. I'm sorry to everyone that didn't want to hear that. I'll have to.
Alex Larson (27:44.798)
Hehehehehe
Alex Larson (27:53.278)
Yeah, I can talk about just about anything. There's no like TMI in my world when it comes to bowels and urine and how we eat and any GI issues and runs that's totally at my alley.
Tyson (27:56.878)
I can imagine, yeah.
Tyson (28:06.542)
Yeah, a classic sign that there's no oversharing is when the athletes are comfortable to let you know, it didn't hurt to go to the toilet. That's when you know, you're in, okay, we can talk about anything territory. I didn't even think I would tell my wife that. So you obviously have a great relationship with your client. Hey Alex, you said earlier that like you and I, we had a similar approach when we were in our racing days that, you know, we had some general ideas about nutrition that didn't quite turn out to be true. Like what was some of the real standouts for you as you started to get into the research that...
Alex Larson (28:13.79)
Mm -hmm.
Alex Larson (28:18.462)
Hahaha!
Tyson (28:36.174)
really stood out as things that would have been helpful to know when you're at peak racing stage.
Alex Larson (28:41.982)
Yeah, I think the number one thing is how common under fueling is not just like given around your workouts. But I would say just in people's day to day. They, it's so common to get in this like diet culture mindset of like, Oh, I always need to be striving to be the smallest version of myself and always should be dieting to prevent weight gain. Like there's this fear, right? And
If you're an athlete that's wanting to perform at a really high level, regardless of if you're just a newbie runner or if you're an elite pro, you need to be able to put in the fuel so that you can perform and put out that power and energy to do that. And so you really have to let go of that dieting mindset and think about what can this fuel bring me in terms of performance and it's, you know, sustained endurance, it's stamina, it's...
going out at a harder effort and being able to maintain that. That's what fuel can offer you. And so for me back in, let's see, I started triathlons in 2009. I wrapped up right before I started having kids about 2016. And so during that time, it just wasn't even on our radar because back then we still were in this diet culture messaging of like, hey, I should be fueling the max.
when I'm out on the bike or I'm out on my run, like as much as my gut will tolerate because that's what's going to make me perform the best that I can. Whereas we were just like, oh, this is good enough. Like this, this is a, this is a good enough amount of fuel to get you through this run. I'm like, no, I want my athletes to feel amazing. I want them to finish that run and feel like, oh, I could have gone farther. I could have gone harder because that really helps boost their confidence that they're ready for the next long workout. They're ready for that. Um,
threshold test or they're ready for their race. Sometimes we have these doubts of like, oh, am I really ready? Yeah, if you're nailing every single workout, you're going to go into that race feeling really confident that you're going to PR.
Tyson (30:44.686)
Yeah. One guy I really enjoyed talking to, I've had him on here a couple of times is, is Gordo burn. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but he was like, he came from the, uh, the iron man scene, but he was like ultra, ultra man 2002. And then he took a whole heap of time away from competitive racing, just to focus on family. And he sort of, it turned out to be like 15 or 16 years that he stepped aside and now he's, he's in his mid fifties and he's starting to make a return to sort of iron man training and he's such a.
Beautiful speaker, such a great writer. And one thing that, that he says, which really stood out to me was, um, with the athletes that he works with, he offers often encourages them not to lose that last couple of pounds. Like, don't feel like you've got to lose that kilo or those couple of pounds, because a lot of the time, like, as you start to push the threshold of how much weight you're carrying or not carrying, you start to make yourself more susceptible to illness and injury. And I thought that's, that's really good to hear because as you and I, I'm sure both know.
Um, like the OCD factor in many realms of the endurance world suggests that, you know, obviously being lighter is going to be better in all cases, which is clearly not true for the reasons we've sort of just spoken about. But I mean, as a young, as a young kid, like as soon as I won my first state champs when I was 13 years old in Western Australia, and it was my breakthrough race where I thought, oh my gosh, I'm good at this. And we're about to go and compete at nationals. And I was like, okay, what do Kenyans do? And the first thing I noticed was they're like.
Everyone was super skinny. And so I got obsessed with this idea of losing weight, despite the fact I was already super skinny. And it got to a point where it was like, it was, it was, it was not healthy at all. Like my performance dropped even as a 13 year old kid. And for me, I realized I was like, okay, well, there's obviously a point of diminishing returns here. And so, uh, do you have any formulas or, or, or sort of, um,
signposts in terms of like healthy weight range for people. Cause my weight fluctuates again, I'm going to have to apologize to you cause I don't know the conversion from, from a kilograms to pounds. Sure. So I currently weigh around 75, 76 kilos and my weight, depending on like where I'm at in training fluctuates from around 70 to 80. Like if I'm in the gym, I'll hit 80. If I'm getting real fast and ready for marathons, hopefully I'm around 70.
Alex Larson (32:48.126)
That's all right, I'm pretty good with kilos, so.
Tyson (33:04.75)
But I guess right now I feel as I'm handling workouts and runs recovering really well at around 75. I'm not trying to lose weight, I'm not trying to gain weight. I'm just taking it naturally. So I guess that this is around where my healthy point would be. It just seems to be my body's happy place. Is that how we should approach it? Just find a sweet spot where you're not adjusting diet and things too much and seeing what your weight is there? Cause how do you know what's too light, what's too heavy?
Alex Larson (33:28.99)
That is a really good question. And everyone has different body types. Some people are, for example, Kenyan runners, very tall, very lean, very much that, I think it's ectomorph body type. They're someone that's really difficult for them to put on weight. And then you have some people that put on muscle like it's...
the easiest thing ever, you know, or some people that really struggle to keep the weight off of them. So everyone's going to come in with different like genetic background too. You have to keep that in mind of like you're, you're, you're given the body that you're given and in those genetics, you kind of have to think about like what's realistic for your body type in that way. Um, but yeah, our body does like to have kind of a set point. Um, that set point does change as we age too.
You know how we weigh when we're 20 years old is probably not gonna how we're gonna weigh when we're 40. So just finding that really healthy weight that you feel that you can easily maintain is very helpful. And there is fluctuations I think for people throughout the year. You know in your offseason you might be a little bit heavier than when you're in peak training. But also if people are know that they have some weight that they could lose, I think it's okay.
to want to lose that weight too. Because I think there's also this culture of like, oh, I don't know, for me personally, I just had a baby seven months ago. So I'm like, okay, yep, there is weight for me to lose. And at the same time, I'm like, oh, is it okay for me to want to lose weight? Like there's this whole self love, like love your body movement on social media. And I'm like, no, of course, Alex, it's okay for you to want to lose some weight, but then also still love your body and be healthy. So like for me,
I think that for anyone that comes to me and they're like, I want to lose some weight. I'm like, great, let's do it. Let's make sure that we do it the healthy way, a way that's going to promote very healthy relationship with food in your body. Let's make sure that we're still like feeling really great in our training. So we're not going to like diet you while you're training because we want you to be able to still run as many miles as you want or as many miles on your bike as you want to do and like work with that and make sure that we lose weight in.
Alex Larson (35:49.374)
very slow and steady manner so that we're not losing muscle mass during this. In fact, we're maybe even gaining muscle mass. We're keeping you really well strong. And so when you do get to that more ideal body composition where you're maybe a little bit leaner, you're set up to maintain that. And we're not doing that kind of yo -yo dieting or roller coaster of weight fluctuations in off season and in season. We're keeping things a little more steady and healthy for you.
Tyson (36:17.07)
Yeah. It's so interesting that, um, it doesn't seem to matter what field or what part of life we're looking at, whether it's training or diet or whatever, like insert anything into this. It's very rarely that the, the dramatic results, like the, the really quick formulas work for a long period of time. Like when it comes to diet, obviously those yo -yo diets that you mentioned, uh, not necessarily the healthiest approach to take. And when it comes to training, so many of us are culprits have gone, okay, well, I want to get faster for the marathon.
Let me just double the training that I do each week. Like both of them lead to pretty negative results. So it is interesting that you say, Hey, let's just have a little bit of a focus on what we're trying to achieve and then sort of be patient with ourselves as we approach those goals. When it comes to training, obviously that's a great way to build strength. When it comes to nutrition, obviously that's a great way to maintain the results that you've sort of put in.
Alex Larson (37:05.822)
Yeah, you got to create something that's consistent. That consistency really, I think, is the most important piece of that. And I hear from a lot of people that are like, oh, I've been trying for so long. I just can't find something that's consistent. I'm like, OK, let's dig in here. Let's figure out what's the issues. How can we make this work in a very simple, as simple as possible for you? I just was talking with a gal on Instagram who was like, I travel a lot for my job. I've got two kids. I just do not have the time to meal prep.
I'm like, okay, yep, so we need to find something that's very flexible, as easy and efficient as possible for you with your really busy lifestyle. And it's something that you can do consistently. And she's like, yes, that is what I'm needing. I'm like, yep, I got that. Like that's exactly what I like to do in helping with athletes is figure out how we can take their busy lifestyle and mesh it with their performance needs so that they can do this for as many years as they want because...
Like as a endurance athlete, it's like, you guys are my people. Like, I get this. We want to be able to do this for life, no matter what life is throwing at us. And so we need to be able to figure out what are even some simple, easy hacks that you can do to get it done.
Tyson (38:14.702)
Yeah. What did you do with that athlete? Cause I can imagine I've never met a person who says, Hey, I've just got too much time. I guess I can meal prep. And so I'm sure there'd be a lot of people whose ears have perked up there because even myself, as I mentioned, I've got two kids, you've got three far out, like respect to you. I understand the restrictions and I felt busy even before kids were an option. I mean, you don't have to have kids in order to feel as though you've got a really busy life. So where do you, where do you guide a person like that when it comes to actually effective meal prep?
Alex Larson (38:20.19)
Yeah, I know, right? Like...
Alex Larson (38:44.382)
Yeah, and so I think you have to kind of lower your expectations. So I know that you really like to do the clean diet thing. And I totally think that's amazing. But for some people, it's just not realistic to prepare everything from scratch. And so we do need to find some ways to maybe choosing some more convenience based foods that are still very healthy for you. Like an example would be like there's like steam in the bag vegetables or like rice that you can just microwave, you know, from a bag, like,
very, very simple things that just save you time and getting some things on the table that are going to get you nourished. Doing like some batch cooking. So it's like if you do have, you know, an extra 20 minutes on a Sunday, like throw some extra servings of chicken in the oven to roast and then shredding those and using those for multiple meals later on in the week that you don't have to prep or cook. Like there's some things that you can do that are a little bit more convenience based. You might, um,
that can just save you time and still get you the nutrition that you need. Like for me, right now, my go -to is rotisserie chickens from Costco because they are super cheap. I just pull all the meat off and I use them in multiple things. Like we just did quesadillas tonight and I chopped up some leftover rotisserie chicken and added that to them. And then I really liked the bagged salad kits where I just basically open up the bag, pour all the contents in and I have myself a side salad and I might throw some chicken on it or some smoked salmon.
whatever it is that I have available and it takes me very little time. But I feel really good about those choices because I'm getting in some good protein, I'm getting in some vegetables, I can easily add a side of carbs on there, whether it's some leftover roasted potatoes or I'll just cook up a whole bunch of broccoli and eat that for a few days because my kids won't touch it at this point yet. But hopefully if they see mom eating it enough, they might get a little interested. So I mean, those are the things that I do like that.
You know, is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it works right now and I'm getting, I'm doing a pretty decent job for how busy I am.
Tyson (40:50.862)
Yeah, yeah, it's a really good point. It's a really good point. And I should clarify, I'm often in trouble from my wife. My wife sounds like she's got a, she's a little similar to you in the sense that she'll, like, flavor's an important part of cooking for her. She always tells me off. She's like, you're the worst person to eat with because you don't appreciate quality flavor. You're all about, oh, like, is this healthy? Is this nutritious? Is this, she's like, just enjoy yourself, you muppet. Like, and I think, yeah, there's something, there's something. Yeah, I mean.
Alex Larson (40:56.35)
Hehehe
Alex Larson (41:03.614)
Yes.
Alex Larson (41:13.022)
Did she call you a muppet? I'm gonna use it on my husband. I use now a muppet to me. Thank you muppet.
Tyson (41:21.294)
I mean, I know the edited down version of what I'm really called in the Popplestone household, but depending, I feel like the podcast would get taken down if I was too honest. We do have a great relationship. She's just very honest with me. Muppets are safe option. Hey Alex, I recognize the fact that, you know, it's getting late over there. Well, it's time to enjoy your evening. But before we go, I thought maybe a nice way to round it out would be, and perhaps we've just touched on this.
Alex Larson (41:25.854)
Oh, okay.
Alex Larson (41:33.374)
Yeah, as she should be, yeah.
Tyson (41:49.262)
In terms of a couple of really big standout mistakes that you see athletes make time and time again when it comes to diet and nutrition, is there anything that stands out to you as, hey, if you just had to start with one or two things, this is where we start.
Alex Larson (42:04.638)
Okay, well, I already covered the under fueling. And the second thing is people are not eating enough breakfast, or they're skipping breakfast altogether. Breakfast is a magical meal. So if you're listening and you donate a breakfast, if you're going to change anything about your day, I would start there. And having some sort of like, start small, it could be like a cup of Greek yogurt and a banana. It could be, you know, just...
peanut butter and jelly sandwich, like something super basic, but just start that routine of having a breakfast in the morning and build that up where you're getting, I'd say, you know, 25, 30 grams of protein. It is amazing how much it helps regulate your appetite. It gives you a head start on protein for recovery for you. Um, so that's probably one of the most common things is I see people will just have like a coffee or a protein bar and that's their breakfast. I'm like, that is not enough. We have to have a more substantial breakfast.
and it is a game changer. Like I said, regulating appetite and then if you're someone that has like sugar cravings or tends to binge eat in the evenings, it will really help curb that little bad habit and put that away because your body is getting enough throughout the day that it doesn't need to have those cravings and evening hunger pangs. So that would be like my number one thing that I see is breakfast. It's a magical meal.
Tyson (43:19.694)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, awesome. You're working with people all around the world. Are you working online with athletes?
Alex Larson (43:29.758)
Yeah, so we work virtually. So we usually use Zoom to connect with our athletes. We do have athletes from all over the world, even Australia. But I will say the biggest challenge, and I said this before, you know, when you started recording, is the time change, because you are 15 hours ahead of me. And that's such a tough time zone. So if you're someone that likes to get up early in the morning, usually we can make that work, because our afternoons we free up for.
that or like I had an athlete in Singapore once and so she and I, one of us was always in her pajamas. We'll just say that because she was 12 hours ahead of me so it seems like either it was really early morning for me and evening for her or vice versa and I was just kind of cracked me up. So that's like the one big struggle is the time zone change. But yeah, we've got I think it's 15 countries so far that I've hit but most of them are in the US I would say.
Tyson (44:04.974)
Hahaha!
Tyson (44:26.19)
Yeah, yeah, awesome.
Alex Larson (44:27.102)
That's a great job. It's the best job in the whole world. I love it. It's you guys are my people. This is totally my calling to help people fuel for however long they want to go.
Tyson (44:36.942)
Well, that's why I was so excited to reach out to you because there's very few websites out there that when you go and see that nutrition is the subject, that it's nutrition specifically for endurance. And so as soon as I saw that, I started to go down the rabbit hole of your world a little bit. I was really excited to get you on. So I was pumped that you're open to it. I'll make sure I take your website and everything in the actual show notes to this episode. So anyone who's listening, who's interested in reaching out.
Make sure you check that out. Is there any, anything else you want to say about where people can follow you or where they should speak to you? What's easiest?
Alex Larson (45:08.094)
Yeah, I mean, easiest was, I mean, options are Instagram is probably where I spend most of my time as far as social media, but also Facebook. Those are really my two that I'm at, but otherwise through my website or email, you can get hold me any of those ways. I'm an open door policy, like figuratively as a virtual business.
Tyson (45:31.758)
Awesome Alex. Well, hey, thanks so much for making the time to come on. That was a good fun.
Alex Larson (45:38.334)
Thank you so much.
Tyson (45:40.43)
I'll cut that off there. That was awesome. Man, you're right.