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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: What's happening, Brand Nerds? Back at you with another Brands Beats and Bytes podcast and today we are doing a What's Poppin edition and you may be wondering today is Thursday It's something interesting is beginning today in the sports world. And what's happening today, brand nerds, as many of you all know, is the beginning of the NBA finals.
Game one starts today, Thursday. And so our What's Poppin is about the NBA. Particularly about the fact that this brand, the NBA, LT, has become a global, a global brand, a global sport, as evidenced by the last three MVPs of the league, Jokic, Embiid, Jokic and this year in the finals, one can argue that Luka Magic is the best player in the league.
So, LT, what you want to chop up about this What's Popping on the NBA, bruh?
LT: Yeah, that's a great startup, D. But, you know, it's really interesting what a global phenomenon the NBA has become and you can take it back, many people do, to the 92 Olympics, you know, The Dream Team. And that's where Dirk Nowitzki said that was the epicenter, sort of ground zero for his interest in taking basketball to a whole other level. Oh, yeah.
DC: I remember that.
LT: Right? So now, like, a third of the league are folks who are guys who were born outside of the U. S. And so, uh, Luka Dončić, which was, you know, the next generation sort of the 2. 0 of Dirk, you know, it's interesting that he's on the same team that Dirk was, right? It is Maverick.
DC: It is.
LT: You know, and Luka for those, uh, folks who aren't maybe big basketball fans, he was MVP of the European league before he even got to the NBA. And if he was, if he was, he might've been 17, I think he was 18 when that happened. So Luka is someone that the basketball world really knew about, and, uh, you know, unfortunately for the Sacramento Kings, uh, they didn't heed that and, uh, they let him go, uh, when he could have been drafted by them and, uh, and, and Dallas, the Mavericks, uh, uh, bear, uh, the, the graces of that because Luke is now with them.
What I find interesting, D, is that Lucas 25, Jason Tatum, arguably the best player on the Celtics is 26. Jalen Brown, who's again, 1B maybe, you know, he's, he's sort of the Scotty Pippen, sort of the Robin to Jason, uh, for the Celtics. He's 27. All right. So one of these, one, at least one of these three guys is going to climb to the top of the mountain.
Then you have Kyrie, who's now the sage old vet, he's all, he's 32, Kyrie's been there before, he beat my Warriors, uh, slew the dagger at us in 2016, so he has a championship and he hit the game winning shot, but someone's gonna come victorious out of this, uh, you know, meaning at least one, maybe two of those three guys being me, being Tatum, Brown and Dodgidge.
And then what does that mean to the marketing world, D, when you think about all of these NBA sponsors and, um, you know, the sponsors that, that these guys all have? Um, what I found is that Jason Tatum sponsors, he's been with Jordan Brand since the get go. Yep. He just signed a deal that was just announced in March with Coach, which I find really interesting, the very, very high end brand that we all know for handbags and a whole lot more. Uh, and then he's also, uh, just signed a deal with SoFi, which many of you have seen probably the commercials with he and his mom talking about talking to younger people about really financial literacy and what to do with, with financial.
So a lot of these companies make bets. On these players, and if you get to the NBA Finals, it takes it to a whole other level. But I've said a lot, D, you've been involved in many of these decisions, what say you about all this?
DC: Everything you've said is on point, LT. The fact that you've got these three young stars, superstars, actually. And the fact that, um, there's a changing of the guard that's happening. I think this year we're going to get our sixth different NBA champion in six consecutive years, which hasn't happened for a long time because the NBA has been for the most part predicated on dynasties. So teams winning multiple championships in a concentrated period of time.
But. That's not the case now. And so, uh, the marketing piece of it is since there will be new stars and new teams rising, it puts more pressure on the marketing community to be better at exactly what you said, LT, placing bets early. It's easy to place a bet on Steph after he has two rings, and KD joins the team.
Okay, so, uh, one ring rather, and KD joins the team. That's easy to pick, but it's not so easy to pick when nobody's got a ring, okay?
LT: And Brand Nerds out there, and costly.
DC: Oh, and costly, yes.
LT: Right? It's gonna cost you a whole lot more when somebody has won. So, here's Coach now, let's just use them as an example. They just jumped, you know, and Jason Tatum, pretty good bet. Like, the Celtics have the best record in the league. They've been knocking on the door a while. Uh, they lost to my Warriors in 2022, which, which I really enjoyed that, uh, NBA finals. Um, but yeah, but they've been knocked that Celtic have been knocking on the door a long time.
And, um, they quite frankly have underachieved. Uh, most risk, most recently last year when they lost to the Miami Heat, they got upset in the Eastern conference finals. So now your Coach though, if you sign Jason Tatum before this happens, and he does, get to the next level, you're going to reap the rewards of that. So there's a, there's almost, um, you know, uh, a stock valuation, shall we say as a marketer for who you're going to put bets on, and then it goes back to, we've talked about this before the connection points, where does. A Coach brand, right, is much different than SoFi. So what, what parts of Jalen Brown's, um, personality and his whole persona are they leveraging?
DC: You mean, uh, Jason Tatum, you said?
LT: I'm sorry. That's a big thank you for correcting me. For Jason Tatum, what parts are they leveraging and how are they going to use it? When you win the championship, the performance level gets to a whole other level. And that's what we're saying, Brand Nerds. If you win the championship, your performance becomes so much higher that there's a lot more to sort of leverage off of that.
DC: Now, I find something interesting about Jason Tatum and Coach. You described Coach as a, uh, as a high end brand. I don't think of coach as a high end brand. I think of them as more mid-level brand. For me, the higher end brands are Gucci, Louis Vuitton, um, Givenchy she, uh, Fendi, uh, these, these are the, uh, the, the higher end brands in, in my view.
LT: I agree with you. Thanks for that correction. But they would like to think themselves, that, they would like to think the higher end of, of whatever level you put them on, right.
DC: They would, uh, but I actually think it fits with coach, uh, to pick Jason Tatum. Here's the reason why Jason Tatum is a first team NBA player.
LT: Yep.
DC: So this dude is really, really good. He is a superstar. Yep. He is lauded as a superstar, but as a brand. Jason Tatum. He's not been reached the level where it's like, wow, you are truly a Celtics legend because he's not won a championship yet. So he is also not the elite of the elite. Not yet. He might become that, uh, after this year's championship, if they win.
Uh, and so, I think Coach picked the right person. However, I heard you describe Jason Tatum as 1A and Jalen Brown as 1B because they both are really, really good. I want to address something about Jalen Brown as a brand. Please do. Okay, and he is from Atlanta. Shout, shout Atlanta one time.
LT: And he went to Cal for one year.
DC: And he went to, oh, he went to Cal for one year. All right. Uh, Jalen is a bit of a unlikely superstar. And I say that because he did not go to Duke. He went to Cal. Cal's not known as this like enormous blue blood basketball program. He then goes to Boston. So he's, he's in Boston and he's not, he's not the, the, the, you know, the number one guy got there before Jason Tatum got there.
But what I love about Jason as a brand is Jalen. Now we keep doing this. It's gonna be Jalen too. Jalen, my bad. Thank you. Jalen Brown is a brand. It's a mix up Brand
Nerd. Sorry. It's, it's Mix up. Jalen. Thank you. Thank you Larry. Jalen Brown is a brand, is he's intelligent.
LT: Mm-Hmm. .
DC: Anyone that knows anything about Jalen Brown knows that he's intelligent.
He's thoughtful. But he's also a killer, Larry, that dude is a killer on the basketball court. So I am wondering why there are not more brands that have decided to partner with Jalen, in addition to Jason, it's just curious to me.
LT: You know, you, you've stumbled on something really interesting. Again, I'm going to use the framework we talked about a little bit before ILEAPPS, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, IQ looks. effort, attitude, performance, personal bond, which they could be from my hometown, where they, they, there's something that you as a, as, as a consumer like that they like. And style, right? And so you're on to something big with Jalen Brown. And what's going to happen is Brand Nerds for all we know, this is what's really cool about the NBA finals. As great as, as Jason Tatum is Jalen Brown, mighty clips. Him in the finals. We don't know could happen.
DC: He's mvp of the eastern conference semifinal of eastern
LT: That's right.
DC: He's an mvp.
LT: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. He was the mvp of of the eastern conference. Um, conference finals. So that what what's interesting about that d I was looking up.
It's funny I was looking up his endorsements and I found beats by dre I found Pepsi, but they seem old. They don't seem like I'm not seeing something that's a recent vintage. And Brand Nerds for all we know, uh, Jalen Brown's made a whole lot of money. He's just signed extension and he is a really intelligent guy.
Talks about that a lot and is an activist person. He was very much involved in Black Lives Matters. So for all we know, Jalen Brown could say, you know what? I don't want corporate restrictions. That's not about who I am. But guess what Brand Nerds. That means he's even more genuine to who he is. I find him.
And again, this is not shots of Jason Tatum for having these other deals. I think he's very genuine too. But Jalen Brown is really genuine. And I think he's only going to do something that really fits who he is. And it's like, we often say what his brand is about, right? And he's not going to compromise that.
DC: Larry, let's give a CMO a gift now. Cause what, what you've talked about with, uh, with ILEAPPS. Is, uh, the elements that, uh, consumers, the connection points that consumers have with athletes, as far as Barclay would say, athletes, athletes. So you've, you've identified those and you've outlined that for the, uh, for the Brand Nerds, and you've talked about how Jalen is authentic.
I'm guessing that because of the brother's intelligence, And the fact that he's a killer on the court, like in the biggest moments when the shot clock is ticking down and they need a bucket, Jalen Brown is the guy that gets the bucket. I don't care about the first 46 minutes of the game. I care about the last two minutes of the game. And this guy, this guy, he shows up in those critical moments, the last five minutes in NBA time.
LT: By the way, your, your proof point is game one, Indiana Pacers. Down by three. And he hit that shot in the corner, the overtime, which was a ridiculously great shot and the Celtics ended up winning. So that's the most recent proof point.
DC: Thank you. Thank you. And by the way, Jason Tatum did his thing in overtime.
LT: Yes, right.
DC: He did his thing. They don't get to overtime without Jay. They, they do not get to, I'm not putting one against the other. I'm just recognizing different, different roles, but because Jay, thanks for adding that Larry Jalen is this thoughtful killer. It represents an even more genuine opportunity for a brand that finds a connection point. And I, I'm telling you, Larry, I've got the brand right now. And if someone knows the CMO or the CMO is listening, I'm going to say, sign this dude right away. Like yesterday, you don't have to pay us over here in Brand Beats and Bytes land Any money, but I do want you to appear on the show, Larry and I do if you go sign him and the brand is Modelo because it's the mark of a fighter.
LT: Yes.
DC: That is what Jalen Brown is. He's a fighter. He's an intellectual fighter, and it's hard to find those if they and I think Modelo has a deal with the NBA. I think I'm not sure about that. So Brand Nerds, we have to check that out. I would be, if I were the Modelo, CMO, I would be fine. Uh, signing Jalen yesterday to a deal, whether they win the championship or not. I'm signing that dude.
LT: Yeah. Well, what's interesting too is about the, we've now talked about Modelo. We've talked about Corona a lot, brand nerd, something to know with that ILEAPPS construct. Brands are all also weak as consumers connect with brands on the same construct, and we've done a lot of work with consumers over the years, and they love effort. Effort is one of the seven. They love effort. So if you say you're a fighter brand, ooh, you're tapping into something visceral that says to consumers that this brand is, you know, fighting for things and really putting the effort in, in all construct of the brand. And so when you then meld as DC just did wonderfully, um, you know, Jalen Brown to get where he's, where he's at, by the way, a lot of people said when he first came into the league, ah, yeah, he's a really good athlete.
He's not such a great basketball player. That was the knock on him when he first came into the league. No one says that anymore. Cause his skill level was incredibly high. And guess what Brand Nerds that all comes from putting in the effort when we ain't looking. When he's putting in the effort in the gym over the summer and putting in the sweat and the effort So d I think you just you just put forth Uh, an incredible, you know, gift to the folks in Modello.
I'm also going to offer, I'm not going to offer a brand, but I'm going to offer a category. I think that there's a software opportunity to, to really delve into the intellectual side of Jalen, right? That really, uh, leverages, that smarts and the authenticity of that. So that's another one Brand Nerds. You, you, you folks down in Silicon Valley, one of one of the, um, the brands that can really leverage that part of Jalen Brown, you got to come on the show too, because we think that would be a great opportunity as well.
DC: All right. Since we're talking about people, Larry, I want to go into another person that you've already mentioned who will be playing in this, uh, And this NBA finals, and I want to draw one of the principles that we talk about in our business, the difference between a great product and a good brand or bad brand, or a great brand and a good product or poor product.
We know, we just say great brand, a good product or good. Or good product and uh, or, or, or good brand and great product. And we always pick great brand. If we're picking between the two, we're going to pick the great brand that has a good product rather than a great product with a good brand. Kyrie Irving.
LT: Yep.
DC: Kyrie, his product is his basketball prowess.
LT: Yep.
DC: He is routinely described as potentially the most skilled player to have ever touched a basketball. This dude's handles are. Ridiculous. As a former New York city point guard yourself. You know, this, the way that he, uh, his, his, um, finished packages at the rim are unlike anyone that I have ever seen.
In basketball history, like this guy is special. No one has ever said, you know, that Kyrie, his game has kind of fallen off a bit. He, he showed up to camp out of shape. No one has said that about Kyrie Irving. So his product has been great, but the brand, the brand of Kyrie Irving has been. It's left something to be desired.
And I'm frankly proud of him this year, just this year as a brand, because he seems to have become more self aware.
Yes.
And, uh, of, of himself. And I think that what's happened with Kyrie is that he's never really been that concerned about Kyrie the brand, but he's been very concerned about Kyrie the man.
And as I'm seeing Kyrie the man, leading his team, leading his family, I am seeing the evolution of Kyrie the brand as well. What say you?
LT: Yeah, I have to agree. And full disclosure, um, I've not ever been a fan and it goes back to him being a dookie. I admit that with my North Carolina roots. So I was prone to not like him.
Um, but you know, let's just say he's matured a whole lot. And I think he chafed when he was the number two guy to LeBron, right. And I think he then said, and then he went to the Celtics and that's something to really watch because he's not going to be well received in Boston. Cause he went, he went to the Celtics after Cleveland and he was going to be their number one guy.
And he played with Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown and he was going to be the number one guy. And it went off the rails in a big way, big way. And he promised he was going to resign there and he didn't. And um, a lot of,
DC: and then he, and then he stepped, he stepped on the, uh, the, the, the Clover.
LT: That's right.
DC: The logo, he stepped on the logo when he returned, not on the team. Yes.
LT: So there's a, that's going to be fun to watch, but I think he's matured a whole lot, I think, you know, it feels like he's fully embraced being the number two guy to Luka cause he's the number two guy. It's Luka's team.
DC: Yep. It is. Yep. And he knows that.
LT: And so, he's fully embraced that and let's face it, if he doesn't fully embrace it, if he chafes at it all, there's no way they're in the NBA finals.
DC: No way. No, no.
LT: Yeah. So, so he's, so what he, he became, let's be honest, D, with all the things, the things that the antisemitic stuff that happened in Brooklyn after Boston.
Yeah, he was from a brand standpoint and he was a darling when he first came up. He the uncle Drew stuff was really cool. Uncle Drew a movie. He had a Pepsi deal. He had his own shoe at nike and all that went away And he has now had the chance and that's what we're both saying. He's reinventing himself. And if he does flourish and the Mavericks win and maybe he's the MVP, right? Then all of a sudden, we love that, you know, we've, we've told the story before, um, uh, Brand Nerds about, uh, the going up and down the mountaintop in the United States, uh, that, uh, Brantford Marsalis shared, uh, way back in the day, he's Kyrie's been down the, the world would love to bring him back up.
As he's become this matured guy and he can then all of a sudden when he was radioactive to brands now he could be fully embraced in a way that uh, we couldn't have foreseen even a year last year.
DC: Um, yeah, I, I thought last year the product was not working with Luca Dante, uh, Luca Dante's product, which was his game.
I didn't think two ball dominant guards, uh, could work. Uh, credit to Kyrie. Yeah. Credit credit to Kyrie. And then, uh, I'll say this finally about Kyrie. We're now in a world where social media is prevalent and has been the case for a long time. But, uh, you know, Larry, I think of myself as a mature guy, and I would like to think I was a mature person when I was a teenager.
But if I were 17 years old, and I had the biggest basketball schools in the country recruiting me, If I went to one of the best basketball programs in the history of college basketball coach by arguably the best college football college basketball coach, arguably, because there's some dude out of UCLA, who might his people might have something to say about that.
So I'm not going to say the best, but arguably the best I'm coached by that person. And I'm drafted number one in the league number one in the league. It might take me a little while to find myself, but really find myself rather than be defined by what others think of me. And I give Kyrie his due because he has found the brother has found himself.
LT: You know what I never thought I would give him his due but I do too. I give him a whole lot of credit. Um, he deserves it he's earned it and you can even see in the way he does interviews now in the post game it always felt like he was doing you a favor. When he was interviewed. And now he's just really comfortable in his own skin and he feels like I don't know.
He just feels comfortable and, and he, um, he comes off that way and that's where this brand reinvention, even if they lose, I think there's some folks who should jump on, on, uh, onto his brand, because I think it can, it, it says a lot in, in how people and brands mature and this is the right way to do it.
Can we segue to Luka to D if, before we close, let's talk some Luka magic. Yes. So, I, again, I'm gonna give my bias. So, I've never been a Luka fan. To my ILEAPPS, The dude isn't in good shape. I still don't think he's in great shape. I don't, I don't think he is either. Yeah. Right. He's pudgy. Um, he, he, I look at basketball, like when I see guys, I want, I want to see, I root for people who will also, I think. Somebody I would want to play with. I'd never want to play with him because he dribbles the ball. He's James Harden and him were the two people I'd never want to play with because they dribble the ball and hold the ball a lot. And so if you're a teammate of theirs, it's their son and your, your little Mercury planets.
There's no Jupiters, right? Yeah. To use that metaphor. Um, but again, you gotta give him his due 'cause he, he's such a great offensive player. He, and notice what I say, he is a great, he's a great offensive player. Mm-Hmm. He really is unstoppable. He's a great passer. He's really, uh, wonderful at scoring the ball and dishing it to, the question is, will he be able to do it on the other end and take them to a championship?
Because I can promise you this. That Boston is going to do everything they can to expose his weakness on the defensive side. And if he can't hold his own on that side, he's not winning a championship. Um, but also then this goes to the whole global nature of the NBA, because he's from Slovenia and so he, and he played in the Euro league, so he has a whole lot of fans all over the world.
So I've laid out what I think. What say you about him?
DC: Same as Kyrie. Yeah, great, great product. Good brand. I don't need to repeat what you said about his game offensively. I do have a high degree of confidence that they're not, if Dallas wins the chip, they're not going to do it because, uh, Luka Dončić becomes, uh, Dennis Rodman 2.0 defensively. So that's, that's not going to happen.
LT: No, it's not.
DC: Yeah, that, that, that, that's not going to happen. So I'm not expecting him to. Elevate significantly his, uh, his defensive game. Uh, even in his finals, I don't expect him to become Olay where he's just getting out of the way.
LT: He can't be somebody that they target at the end of the game and just fully exposed.
That's what I'm talking about. He's not going to be Dennis Rodman, but he can't be Olay.
DC: He can't, he can't be the guy that they keep calling in to pick and rolls that they can't, right. That's because they'll, they'll cook them up. That's right. Uh, so, but his, but offensively, he's one of the greats of all time already.
He is already so great product, but here's the good, the good brand piece. And I've noticed this with some of the international players, not all of them. If you listen to, uh, nine, uh, 10 interviews with Luka Dončić. In nine of them, the word he's going to say the most is amazing. What do you think about Kyrie? Amazing. What do you think about the game? Amazing. And then the second word that he will use, I've noticed, is special. So amazing and special, amazing and special. And so I find myself yearning when I'm listening to him being interviewed, either post game or on a show. It's like, I want to hear more from you, dude.
I want to, I want to understand more about what you're about, what, what, what makes you tick, what excites you, um, what you're thinking about. And I don't get that from him. And, uh, so. I think brilliantly Nike understood something similar about the Joker last year, like the dude doesn't talk very much. He doesn't give you very much.
And so they did after he won a final after the finals last year, they did a really basic ad that just had copy and funny music talking about the things about Joker, what he's really about, like likes horses and that kind of stuff. I don't remember the copy points. And he said, and that's no joke. So they made a joke of the fact that he doesn't have much expression, not, not all that different from the way that Nike did a little penny for Anthony Hardaway.
They're like, the dude is not that expressive. So we're going to give him Chris Rock in the form of a little penny. I'm wondering from a marketing standpoint, what can be done for Luka? Because amazing and special are not enough to make a great brand.
LT: That's a great question, but I don't get the same genuine sort of anathema to the public and to the interest that.
Uh, that the Joker, the Joker you could tell the last place he wants to be is interviewed. He just wants to be out of the public eye. He loves playing the game. And if he'd never had to do an interview again, he'd be fine with it. I think Luka rather enjoys it. Actually. I don't see it the same way. I don't think he's the same as the Joker. So, and I'm not saying you said that, but I think it's a little bit different because it was easy for Nike to do that. I, it'll be really interesting to see how, because Luka is a Nike guy, by the way, um, what, what they would do if he wins.
DC: I cannot wait to see what they do. I think Luka is a Brand Jordan guy.
LT: Uh, Tatum's Brand Jordan. Luca, I believe is Nike. Okay.
DC: All right. I thought he was Brand Jordan. I don't know why I thought it was Brand Jordan. Yeah. But, uh, either way, they, they still have the same marketing muscle. So it'd be interesting to see. So that's Luka brother. We've covered the four.
LT: We have, um, I think this is going to be, look, I'm hoping this goes seven games. Um, I'm sure the NBA is hoping that too. You've got two big markets. Um, and this week we didn't even get into the whole NBA rights deal. We're going to have to cover that at another time, because that also was going to play into this going forward. But the NBA is actually in a really good place right now. And I think a lot of people were wondering, well, gee, what happens when, you know, when LeBron and Steph and that generation are too old. And, you know, while those guys are still playing, they're not what they were in their prime. There's a lot, a lot of great players and you're going to, you're seeing it.
Really featured in the finals this year. So we're, we're really looking forward to watching. And as you know, brand nerds, we love them, how it manifests itself in a marketing standpoint too. So it'd be really interesting.
DC: Yeah, LT. I was, uh, prepared for this. What's popping to talk about the NBA rights deals, but this became more of a player's conversation and Brand Nerds.
You all know, we never know. Larry and I don't know what we're going to talk about. We just kind of show up to these things and just let it, you know, Let it rip. Uh, so we should do an NBA rights deal. What's Popping during the course of the finals. We should definitely do that. That's a good idea.
LT: Yeah. And maybe actually, maybe even at another time, because you know, there's all the rumors that it's what's going to happen as it relates to ESPN coming back, Amazon coming in and NBC Round Ball Rock coming back.
But that's still, uh, is all in the rumor stage. So when that gets solidified, I think that'll be really interesting and how that all affects inside the NBA, the best studio show of all time. So that's fodder for another show, Brand Nerds. Uh, we're, uh, we're giving you something that we're going to cover. In the future.
So I think that's a good way to end the day. What do you think?
DC: Yeah, brother.
LT: All right, Brand Nerds, thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bites. The Executive Producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC". Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom DiOro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple Podcasts, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews that we've seen a lot of. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.