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Southeast Asia lacks honest signal.
Straits Signal is a long-form conversation platform built around the systems shaping the region: mobility, capital, infrastructure, and the energy transition. Each episode is a single extended dialogue with someone navigating a structural shift in real time: the operator absorbing the friction, the investor pricing the risk, the builder sequencing the impossible.
The format is deliberate. One guest. One thread. No panel, no pivot. What emerges is how Southeast Asia actually works, the version with the capital gap, the regulatory constraint, the human resistance no one writes about.
Listeners leave each episode understanding why something is hard in a way they didn't before.
Hosted by Kim Yeoh. Recorded in Singapore. Built for everyone who wants to understand what's actually being built next.
Q: How would you explain Cartesio in a few words?
NICO (Teaser): Inside this industry, there are incredible products doing well all the times. So you have in your city the top starred restaurants with incredible menus all the times which are pricey and maybe unavailable.
Very few people can access those products. Everyone else unable to go to the Michelin Star the restaurants unavailable every day.
You need to go to some other restaurant, and so we tried with the lack of leverage and derivatives to become a hedge fund proxy in flexibility but with the access, liquidity and costs of very simple products."
KIM (Voiceover): "In part one, you met the people. Now you meet the machine, Cartesio, an AI that reads markets every day and moves accordingly. Nicolo and Bastian built it to do one thing. Own the right assets at the right time. I'm Kim Yeo. This is Straits Signal issue 4 part two."
KIM (Podcast starts): You've you guys have really gone into it like deep dive into it, which you have to, right? Because it takes so much of time and investing to be able to come to what it is today. And um because here's why I'm asking is because most people see the final product and the journey has been well like you colorfully portrayed how you've gone through it and if Catesio is explainable in one word how would you say that?"
NICO: “Should I go past the ?”
BASTIAN: “Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about go and go…”
NICO: “We are experimenting with also marketing pitches and this and it becomes clear over time but Cartesio does all weather adaptive investing for all phases of the economic cycle."
KIM: “Nicely put.”
BASTIAN: “"Yeah. For me I–I was thinking I know but the one I like the most but I think it's one of the you know the first that we...we discussed Nico it's it's...it's really for me like allowing our customers yeah.
To own a portfolio that you know buy and sell the right asset at the right time and that's I think it's that's basically also the essence this is also joining what Nico mentioned–”
KIM Clarified: “And it's also to your philosophy the adapt right ADPT as well?”
BASTIAN: “Correct, correct.”
Q: What was the story behind the funding of Cartesio?
KIM: So it's aligned with that so I'm going to talk about in terms of the real story behind it not about performance of Cartesio right now so your back test look incredible um at least from what I researched was 430% cumulative return versus S&P 500 340%. So that's like about 90% more than S&P. Half the volatility sharp ratio of 3.9 versus 1.85. Basically, you're doubling up what S&P does.
So on paper, this almost looks a bit too good. Yeah. I mean, and I say that not to attack. I say that from a point of being honest and that's why I'm started–I'm starting to ask harder questions.
So both of you, as I understand, you guys put 1.5 million euros of your own money into ADPT ADAPT; What was the moment when you thought hey you know this is actually working it's actually adapting to what we want and what was the moment where you thought oh, this could break?"
BASTIAN: maybe let me just correct one point what you said I mean uh and I wish it you know it would be true but this is not our own money I mean the 1.5 million is money basically from our investors–”
KIM: "Oh ok, apologies for that one."
BASTIAN: "No no it's not it's not a problem I just want to to, to correct this because I wish it would have been my own money but uh it's it was like a uh I mean uh trust uh and uh it's coming for, for the from the people basically who are trusting us and they are also like our business angels basically who--who supported that.
So I think it's important to to mention because they--they without them you know we could not you know make this project happen. So we need to give back to that, but what we have done basically is that we have put some money in the fund I mean in the uh I mean on the ETP on the on the stock exchange.
Which is also important to mention I think because of course if we if we put our money as you mentioned this is because we--we trust uh this you know the project uh I mean the BTP delivers and--and performs.”
NICO: "Thank you for the clarification Bastian.
A few things that are important. Bastian is right. The cash liquidity in the experimental portfolio before launch is coming from a group of four--becoming five senior advisers which are very good friends, a number of them senior executives which were with us at IE and a group of seven business angels which have done the pre-seed round of the startup with us.
First specification but as you, Kim have said that we risked our own money with the startup I have to say not to disclose any number that I personally committed more than the money that you mentioned into the costs of the startup, so not on the experimental fund but into the setup yes…so skins in the game confirming the point 100%..
Now I would say the back test which I would explain just to tell you what has been the worst time which is a back test. So it is a proxy to what we could have been doing over the past 12 years. Pay attention to something first:
The S&P in those 12 years would do 360%. So we are a good chunk above with a balanced, less risky portfolio which is WOW! But our numbers are gross of fees. The S&P would be an ETF. So net of fees. You can basically take away the transaction costs and the number of cost and fees that would make us align to the S&P.
The beauty of the back test is that yes, we experience the third of the volatility. Sorry, half of the volatility and a third of the maximum drawdowns which is when we decided to implement the strategy and I suffer from that euphoria and fear that Bastian mentioned not every day but every week. So I cannot identify one bad point but I can tell you that week on week off, I suffer that as a manager of the portfolio; What is the more painful point here is that investing is difficult.
Investing in public markets not only for us with Cartesio but with people staying with us. You have many levels of expertise in the people investing out there with or without us: Family offices, institutional investors will know but we have many retail investors with us inside the fund. And while retail investors buy happily buy on the idea that we minimize draw down, lower volatility and accelerate when it's needed, no one likes to see a minus in front of the portfolio. So our retail investors were not happy with our minus 3% in March or April of last year when markets were doing minus 20.
And so what is painful is ongoing conversations which are a must incredible learning point for us to try to explain different things to different audiences without having the scale yet.
Kim: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Pinch is growth, right? No pain, no gain.”
Nico: Yes. Yeah.
KIM: It's tough. I mean especially at this point in life and you--you really just want to enjoy but you guys kudos to you guys who really take this embark on this journey because it's not easy because I'm also looking at the trade-off that I want to surface about what you just said as well.
Um you chose no leverage no derivatives and like you said only liquid ETFs, that's trustworthy and the upside that you're giving up is there any alpha that you're living on the table by staying this pure as you were going through that.
High and lows, your feelings of fear were definitely there; What's the failure mode that you're most paranoid about and the one that keeps you--you both up at night? Because it's not easy through this journey, I'm sure."
NICO: Yes. Yes. So, we are having and Bastian can add to that. We are having so many insightful, interesting conversations. I would say ehhhh the investing industry is incredibly full of products and solutions. Many of which are all the same, expensive and not very useful. So trust from retail and institutional investors in general is not there. Okay, because so many products fail. You listen to Bastian his experience with private banks and many other friends had a--a nasty experience. Some others work with very good professionals.
So it depends, but it's very difficult to find your way in a city that is full of restaurants and they all look the same. Where do you go? You need to try them all. But you don't have enough days in one year to try them all.
So you end up picking and choosing and often you might be wrong versus expectations. So inside this industry there are incredible products doing well all the times. big famous American hedge funds. I will mention Citadel Millennium being the most famous ones. So you have in your city the top starred restaurants with incredible menus all the times which are pricey and maybe unavailable.
So very few people can access those products. You need to have incredible wealth and they tend to cost 20% of performance fees or even 30 now some 48. OK? Incredibly expensive.
Everyone else unable to go to the Michelin starred the restaurants unavailable every day. You need to go to some other restaurants and Michelin starred the good restaurants are not for every day anyway.
And so we tried with the lack of leverage and derivatives to become a hedge fund proxy in flexibility but with the access liquidity and costs of very simple products. So we had to remove the liquidity there and this is why we are trying to do these things differently.
And the idea of trying to be in the right place at the right time not daily would be impossible but over an a phase of the cycle is something that we define dynamic beta.
Alpha is when you buy something doing very differently than the rest of the market.
Beta is the return coming from a market segment like the S&P 500. Dynamic beta is that you jump in between the S&P or gold or commodities depending on market conditions. Okay.
So to be trusted, we wanted to say look we have a portfolio full of very liquid ETFs which are well known and that everyone owns. No product risk inside the portfolio. No derivatives. So we couldn't go long gold yesterday and lose all the money. So no derivative risk. You just trust Cartesio and Nico and Bastian and the team to mix over time this basket. So if you look at it, you are not taking such a big risk.
Maybe you are already investing in the MSCI world, in the gold ETF, in the S&P, do it with us. We move it for you. Okay.
So the conversations emerging from this. When you have the minus 8, minus 3 or when the market is doing plus five and you do plus three is that you understand that is incredibly difficult to know,
Understand or perceive your target market expectations in any given day. If you sell a box of cereals which are full of chocolate, they are very good for a day where you want to feel happy and you want to add some calories and sugars to your day. But if it's a Monday morning and you need energy, maybe it's better avocado with some breads or an egg instead of the boom and burst of chocolate, right?
But the effect will fade soon and you learn as a human. When you delegate to others to do something with their money, but you don't see what markets do, it is incredibly difficult to manage expectations.
Which is why we are publishing Cartesio for a window of time for free on our website to try to pull in people to watch every day and see how this system works.
Some days we have people calling say why you didn't buy more gold within the portfolio 20% of gold which is much more than the 60-40 because gold was going well up then gold was going down the day after and luckily we didn't have more.
And so you don't call your audience saying look luckily we didn't have more. No you cannot phone call everyone that is investing with you every day. So we are trying to find out a way without a sales or a customer service team to manage everyone's expectation to pull people in with some education in financial markets.
KIM: Yeah. And that's the toughest part.
NICO: "Incredibly difficult to keep your target audience happy even if the product is doing what you promise especially if you are in the fields of a service. We are not in manufacturing. We are not selling an app that for how useful as it can be you manage and you organize.
We are in a delegated service where we touch money from people. We trust in Nico and Bastian but not in financial markets. That's really delicate. Which is why my biggest fear I don't know if Bastian shares the same is that Cartesio is working well and we think autonomous investing is the future.
We just need to buy the time to demonstrate between one and three years that we are capable to do well because being a startup we don't have infinite finance.
So we are fighting to buy these early days to then become an established player. That's very difficult in
fintech.
Q: Is autonomous investing the future?
Bastian: No no absolutely I'm 100% align with Nico. I think that's uh that's really the challenges we are facing knowing that you know this I mean the market of you know investment is a is a market of brands, as mention as Nico mentioned also there are like gazillions I mean tons of products also as well available and you see when you look at the size of the different ETFs or ETP you have few of them which you know weight billions uh I mean each of them and you have like huge players, many players with small amounts. Uh and of course you need to build the brand.
So if you combine I mean all these constraint and all this element of a context uh that makes you know the the work of convincing people difficult and challenging but we have been successful for few people. I mean we have some points of interest. we have more people getting in. But it's true that the speed of you know increasing uh the size of the the asset under management is a is is a critical uh you know as a critical path for us to survive over the next the next years.
The time that we can demonstrate build to build history uh show the track record um and and demonstrate to people by numbers because of course we have we this is a number industry as well. that's but basically we u we we are delivering what we say but we also made I think an important choice which is u I mean a totally uh I mean on purpose choice to be transparent because um what we uh and at least what I did not like much as a client in this industry is the lack of transparency so uh it's you know.
I have a very good example suddenly I have a fund okay quite you know delivered 5% % return, which was quite unexpected nice and suddenly the next month I was minus five. I called my advisor say that what happened because I mean this is a kind of product which it should never happen I don't really understand and the guy never been able to uh to give me an answer because I mean when you look at the documentations uh from this fund it's very I mean I mean every it's everything except transparent so you don't really understand in the end what you buy and what you what is clear are the fees because I mean they have to put it clearly in mandatory so you can you can find the fees but like in terms of what I mean the quick question is "what do you buy or what do you think you buy and what do you buy". I mean in reality and I was never able to to get the answer and I said my advisor just pull me out of this fund because I just like what's going to be next like minus 50%. Yeah, it's just like I mean doesn't make any sense and this is not what we you know how we position ourselves how we build a product uh because we are providing uh transparency we have the app available on our website where people can see even can even see and understand what is the thinking behind and the rational of a decision made and uh and that's why also we think you know the future of of investing is autonomous as Nico mentioned because this I mean the technology and of course the programming the development I mean the work which has been done can bring this answer and can bring this transparency and I think that's if we are able to uh to get to reach more people I'm sure they will understand they will join us on this on this venture.
Kim: It's also like to what you said right for retail investors to take back their power in terms of investments
Bastian: Absolutely yeah.
Q: How was it like building from Singapore?
Kim: “Okay so here's where the story gets really interesting. I think this is where I turn to you, Bastian at this point because you guys could have built this company in London, Madrid, Frankfurt, top financial hubs in Europe.
So that's where your network is, right? Um because you guys are from IE, you guys are from um Europe, that's where our capital is. Um but instead Bastian is based in Singapore. That's how we met in a way.
And I need to be clear about something. I mean, you're not a European fintech that parachuted into Singapore with a press release and a local hire. You actually live here. Um, you're embedded in the expert ecosystem. You understand Singapore's wealth culture in a way that most founders, well, they just don't. And before we get into the opportunity, let me ask a harder question: “Apart from your wise presence here, why Singapore and not in a CEO pitch that way? Okay.
Why Singapore? because you cuz you could have stayed in Europe and you could have stayed on maybe in South Africa like you said because I do know the numbers. APAC has roughly about 21.7 trillion in high net worth assets. Singapore has 200,000 employment passholders who need to invest for financial freedom. So that kind of place Singapore within South East Asia is the main tiger as we all know right? It's a wealth concentration play.
It's an openness to in innovation play whereby MAS (Monetary Authority Singapore) is predictable in a way that EU isn't.
Right? So here's a deeper question. Geography is strategy. You're not just distributing ADP in Singapore. You're building from Singapore. What does that actually mean? And how does it change the way you create?”
Bastian: I mean the just also I mean in terms of organization that's even if I'm based here of course I would say like the hub of a company is still in Europe & I mean Nico is based in Madrid. We have our like our senior advisors uh they are I mean they are based in Europe.
One of big chunk of our network comes from Nico network. Uh I mean and Nico has been work I mean working in London working taking care of you know of southern Europe countries, South America, US I mean so um I mean Singapore I would say is more of the nascent part of it and and it's coming from an opportunity. Um and you know we mentioned we talked about our wives a couple of minutes ago in this podcast, and uh and it's true as you mentioned that my wife been an expert. I had the chance to to move from one country to to another one and the opportunity of Singapore, you know, happened and obviously we we discussed it also with with Nico when it happened to to my family because it was not on the on the radar. I mean we were more thinking at the beginning uh with my wife when I was in South Africa that the next tech would be to to go back to Europe. uh but it's true on the other hand as you mentioned uh that of course Singapore is a fantastic opportunity that when we when we look at it we say okay let's go and let's opportunity for the company as you mentioned because there's a lot of money under management there's a big maturity in terms of financial service and financial product it's everything is really concentrated so uh I had like a business meeting just before we started to record this podcast half an hour ago.
Uh it was it's half an hour from my house uh in the financial center. Um and you have all the banks you do each floor you can move from one bank to another one from the final financial institution. So I mean when you look at this when you look at the world when you look at you know that for instance um experts do not have access to CPF I mean like all the Singaporeans and all the PRs they can use CPF which is like the pension uh fund scheme let's make it simple for everyone but like the pension fund scheme from the government state from the Singapore state that's this big opportunity so it's more like opportunity driven, but of course you know being here you know it's a fantastic you know field to play and to explore, um we are in the process of looking at you know or we could even more leverage it because uh there's some possibilities you mentioned mass but there's also EDB. I mean there are some very uh some very interesting and very dynamic uh you know government agencies which are here to develop business uh to help companies to grow and to develop for here and we think we are convinced that this is a super interesting base uh for us uh to go in Asia to see part of a of a market of of a market and to um to try also to to also to measure the appetites for this kind of product because uh you know five I would say is like every product you have also like some specific appetites some specific needs uh uh which we need to uh to understand and which we need basically to uh to answer.
So, it's a very exciting and and super super great challenge uh for us, I think.
KIM: Thank you. And anything to add um…Nico?
NICO: Yes. Yes. We love Singapore. There's there's the the the drier economic analysis of being a big hub of wealth is incredibly well regulated, is incredibly transparent. We sense an interest from authorities also to expand financial knowledge. Worth saying that we have our IP and all the legal organizational setup here in Europe for now but Bastian is there scouting for opportunities. We mentioned our institutional profile before. We have an important network in Singapore of friends and trusted partners. And so as we are trying to buy that time to demonstrate, we are trying to get closer to friends and we happen to have some friends in Singapore as well, not only in Europe and so we are testing there the appetite for these things. We are trying to test the understanding the local AI developments and we are getting very differentiated interesting feedback. Hopefully at some point we can bring business to Singapore and and use it as a hub for Asia.
Q: How does Cartesio adapt to the Asian landscape?
KIM: Okay...because here's what I sus here's what I suspect, you know, because the way Europeans think about risk can be quite different, fundamentally different from the way a Asians do, right?
So pension obligations are different like you said, tax regimes are different, inflation fears are different. Again, currency exposure is different. So a lot of things, a lot of variables are different. So if Cartesio was built on European market dynamics, what changes for Asia?
Does that do you retrain the model or do you adjust the signals or does the core logic pull across the board?
NICO: I would say that our bet with the way that Cartesio works today for our investment strategy, which is called Panta reenact, is to be opinionated on how to find value on markets. And so we try to respect the assumption that Cartesio would be superior over time in finding he right risk adjusted returns and that that would be universal across a box of different asset classes as we also have emerging markets and Asia in our basket.
Okay. But the perception of the individual investor and buyer of financial products can be different because of tax, inflation or pension solutions. As you mentioned, first we suspect, not to say that we know that financial knowledge in Singapore is higher versus the average European financial knowledge because many things in Europe are delegated by law and so people care less about where their pensions is versus your own portfolio in Singapore. Right?
We aim to replicate with Panta.AI Adapt a full portfolio fully delegated autonomous and adaptive but we don't pretend that people would invest all of their savings into our own product. So we would put the Cartesio pan adapt in theory at the core say 5% of any Asian portfolio once approved and when possible to do so at the core and depending on preferences the other 95% of any portfolio can go subject to preferences, tax situation regimes and and maturity time and patience of the individual but with this adaptive engine at the core.
00:28:24,320 → 00:29:57,840
BASTIAN: Just would like to add about this and I think that's important because we haven't mentioned it yet. Um the beauty of the system is uh that basically we can and we could have and we would like to have some days to have several strategies run uh by the system on a daily basis because that's also I mean the power of having a software the power of AI but the power of you know autonomous investment. And um obviously as Nico mentions we are working uh to see also what could be how we could you know write the history of Panta.AI of Cartesio in in Asia. And of course there are several options uh you know which are on the table and which are available(s) and we want to understand also at some points if a given strategy or some different strategy could also be relevant for for Singapore or for Asia because there are some needs which are also specifics.
But the thing is like with that software with with Cartesio uh we can definitely know run several strategies on a daily basis. Yeah. And so it give us also the opportunity to have like also a ton needs or teller answer I mean for tailor needs depending on some countries but at this stage as Nico mentioned uh we have one strategy running but with the opportunity and the possibility uh to uh to look at other options very very quickly and very easily.
Q: What Is The Future Vision For Pantar.AI
KIM: Ok, so let's zoom out for a bit. Let's talk about your future. So you've hinted about what comes next. Yeah. Multiple strategies beyond ADPT, tokenized products, a subscription where institutional investors can access Cartesio's real-time signals and operating system for investing.
Pinch that end state for me. If everything works perfectly in five years, what does Panter.ai look like?
What's next? What's the second, third product?
Nico: The way we see the vision of Panter.AI let's say to 2030 is that if we do things well instead of having only one strategy as Bastian mentioned we will have an ecosystem of autonomous investment entities.
So we imagine a platform or a website where any investor in regulated countries can come click and buy an investing strategy that is fully delegated to Cartesio. The way they might look like right now is that we have Panto.AI adapt as a very flexible 60-40 that changes a lot but we can have a structure respecting for example a 20-80 structure where 80% would be regional Asian bonds and 20% will be local stocks. So you even constraint more the volatility and the draw downs.
And so we imagine five, six, 10 options of flexible products with different limits all managed by the same system where investors that can will click buy and delegate and just watch transparently what happens to the product. Okay, this is what we foresee in general.
On the tokenized word and Bastian can add more. We are thinking that the wild west of crypto investing where wealth has been coming from concentrating in a few bets at the right time there is not fully available, responsible, mature, diversified investment portfolio available through the same channel. So the idea of trying to get closer to a younger motivated technically fluent target market using wallets in the blockchain and proposing a responsible portfolio to diversify their wealth concentration could be a good idea but it's something that we need to test as well. Bastian this would be my condition.
Bastian: I think though for the for the token as you as you mentioned I mean we see definitely an opportunity uh for I mean people who are holding uh you know crypto money and uh and that don't want to to go back to.
Like you know USD or euros or I mean regular uh you know currencies um and so we we want to uh to to run a test uh i mean this year actually I mean as you know also the you know the crypto market is not very it's not very hot these days. I mean this this month.
So uh you know we are also monitoring I mean the situation because of course you know the timing and the the markets needs to be a little bit better than than it is now. But the interest of of course of token and tokenization is really like opening you know and and reaching new customers.
Um and um we we are fortunate enough to uh to to know um and to have as a friend I mean a player in in that space um who is ready to um to to help us uh with his company and his network of partners uh to open.
We are very keen on you know launching you know an experimentation at least at the beginning and of course the most logical I mean how to do it would be to open a token on top because it's feasible and but we could also think because of of Cartesio and its ability to manage several strategies at the same time to open a token with specific strategy coming from Cartesio and why not like having a token, you know, with like crypto, gold and US dollars as collateral.
So I mean it's it's possible to have different kind of strategies and that's that's bringing a lot of opportunities and for sure tokenization is just at the beginning. Uh I mean and it's a market that we are following very closely. Uh because we think also you know tech as we offer you know uh technology products there's also a natural fit I think in terms of in terms of of customers in terms of of people who are you know holding crypto money to look at our product like ours
Q: Is Pantar.AI a product company or tech platform?
00:39:01,680 → 00:39:50,560
Kim: Um thanks for that so I'm just curious then last question before the last part um the uncomfortable question here is then because you're talking you're talking about different types of products so is Panter.AI a product company or a tech company then because if it's a product ADP then can compete on performance right then you're competing against Vanguard or backtest performance can be cyclical you win for three years and then someone else wins but if it's a platform where Cartesio becomes the infrastructure that other people build on or where each customer's data makes the system better for the next customer then you have a structural don't. So which is it? Is it ADP the end state or is it a batch into something bigger?
NICO: Fantastic. We we are trying to define these every day. Answer for now is that we start as a product company. We have one system. The system is providing unique views and these views are traded into an ETP and this is what customers can buy right now invest into right now.
What we will experiment with Bastian this spring it will be to open Cartesio to the public as we said now you can access it through our panther.ai website and we think that as the front end design will be completed in an easy convenient way we think we will close it and start selling subscriptions because you may want to say I need to invest in the way that you guys do. I have no time and no interest. So I invest in Pantary Adapt. I delegated it to you. But many other customer audiences or segments can say look I enjoy doing this from home or I don't need to buy everything that you do. Give me the view and I will just take that idea together with our point of views and it will help my decisions investing decisions every day.
So that could be a platform providing that kind of views. At the point we would have the product Pantar.AI adapt and the subscription with macro insights if you wish.
The evolution of that will be to become both on the software Cartesio side and on the product side an ecosystem of more choices. Super interesting to become an infrastructure that banks can use to do better investing. But we know that everyone is experimenting with that right now. And so we need to see what the future state of the technology will be. If people don't get to good investing results, they might need us.
If they can have alternatives, they may not need Cartesio. So we will compete with investment strategies. The idea is to use this intelligence to distribute to operators as subscription to retail to take their own investment decisions and as products to delegate to. So we will try to become an entity with multiple revenue models if you wish and business models.
BASTIAN: I'm pretty aligned obviously with with with what Nikico mentions but like the really our goal uh I mean in the this coming weeks and this coming months uh is really also to to see where the needs are. I mean of course we we are talking with many people. We have already some people who who gave us uh I mean who invested in in in our ETP. But we also uh see that there's an traction and some interest also to get access to insights and so informations.
So uh and that's why also we we open uh we made the decisions to to open this last days our platform uh because we had that you know that feeling that here's some appetites to get that information.
So what are people going to do with that information? This is also what we need to better understand. But definitely one of I think one of her key strengths is her capacity you know to provide a daily you know insight a daily point of view on how market are performing and if you look at what is available in the market there are not so many systems that can uh provide uh you know such you know I would say provide like daily insights and that's really one of our strengths and I'm convinced that's there's a market for that.
Q: RAPID FIRE QUESTIONS:
KIM: because I Then um like you said earlier if it's it's not just signal right it's also information and if everyone acts on that same signal then the age disappears because you built something really valuable and the act of making it valuable to sell dilutes that value and you know because it's also the value isn't in the signal as well it's also understanding why that signal matters or maybe the value is in the service and not just the information. So I guess what you're doing is really in that direction of providing that to the greater market. Thank you for that. Um about the future.
But the last best part of this podcast is the rapid fire questions. So it's a fun part just first instinct no perfect answers. So I think we have this we talked about this before both of you.
Wine or whiskey?
Bastian: Wine obviously.
Nico: Wine.
KIM: Okay. One belief you hold about investing that most finance would disagree with?
BASTIAN: One belief um…
NICO: I'm thinking about that machines with their discipline can be better than human emotions but it would be so controversial. I would say that we believe that we Cartesio we can do market timing that is something considered not possible.
BASTIAN: And I think for me transparency is an asset not a liability because I I heard many times that but you should not give that information because like if you provide people are going to copy you or they're going to steal your idea whatsoever. I think that's really what we bring to a market is this transparency aspect is super important. It's a key value and a key asset for us.
KIM: Yeah, that I can't agree more on that one. Honesty is what we all want anyway, right? So, if you had to bet everything on Panter's future in one sentence, what would it be?
BASTIAN: I mean, the future is autonomous. I mean, it's the future of wealth is is autonomous.
00:45:29,040 → 00:45:37,119
NICO: I would say reliable performance in all scenarios
KIM: with transparency?
NICO: For transparency.
KIM: Okay. Bastian, you moved from South Africa to Europe to Singapore. You built a career on seizing opportunities. What opportunity do you see right now that nobody else is seeing?
BASTIAN: Uh I mean the the opportunity I see is to bring peace of mind to people because I can tell you for the last because we are like in the in the middle of the Iran crisis. Yeah. uh and like I can tell you everybody and everyone is talking to me about all my portfolio the performance or what's etc. And like one of goal also one of our goal and it's part of a vision of a company. Yeah. is to is to bring peace of mind to our clients because they know that you know even if they don't watch the market 24/7 we do it for them and we are going to make decisions take actions uh protect their their capital if there's some issue or if there's like some growth we will see this opportunities. So that's really what we want to do is to give that to the to the investors and to to our clients.
KIM: It's funny how you mentioned peace of mind because a lot of autonomous things are moving in that direction. For example, vehicles, wealth now and all that is pretty much building that, right? Giving us peace of mind. We don't have to drive. We don't have to think.
Anyway, sorry…diverted. So, anyway, and Nico, um, last one. You wrote code during a pandemic because you needed to build something, right? Like you said earlier, what's one line of code in Cartesio that you're most proud of? Not the smallest, but the one that feels most human.
NICO: The one that feels most human. I'm super proud about the hedge fund mega matrix to judge the efficiencies of two portfolios but that doesn't feel very human. I think is the one is a function that I called manage sentiment where in a quirky way I tried to put a measure a number of known and unknown sentiment indicators to perceive the human fear in the market. that's that's there's a human touch to the perception of fear to try to capture only the relevant pockets and that stayed since the beginning. You know, not only a good valve but also very human in the way I wrote it.
KIM: and that's from the beginning like you said you want that human touch and here you go you're delivering it in the slightest most intricate way possible through Cartesio that line of code.
Okay. So, thank you both very much for coming on. I know it's a long conversation, but it's going to be a good one for the long term for you guys. Hopefully, at least in Southeast Asia.
But before we go on to come back to something you said at the beginning, you guys met 15 years ago, the worst financial crisis in generation. And for 15 years, you watch the system from the inside. You didn't say the system is broken. Let's burn it down. You said the system is making a choice it doesn't have to make. And we can give people better tools. And that's what you're doing, right? It's a respectful revolution that you're building right now because I think that's why this actually matters.
You're not here claiming Cartesio is the smartest AI. I'm sure that's not what your plan is. You're saying it's the most trustworthy, and with a lot of transparency, of course, but in a world full of black boxes and hype and promises, that's genuinely, to me at least, it's radical because what you've done, and I mean this seriously, it's rare. Um, you built something that could scale. You tested your conviction with real capital. You're thinking about regulatory reality, about operational resilience, about the nitty-gritty of building a business, and that matters.
So, Nicolo & Bastien, you know, thanks so much for being here and for the bet that you're making. It's not just on markets. It's actually true people as well because it's through that human code. It's true people. It's true transparency that you're doing. And um is there anything that you guys want to do for um talk about for um Panter.AI uh a line of marketing about you were saying about Cartesio coming on at some point releasing that. So do you guys want to go deeper on that?
BASTIAN: No, I think it's I mean that two two aspects maybe Nico you can talk about the the the website and the and the app but no I I want to talk about what what we do and where people can uh can follow us and uh I'm thinking about uh because you were mentioning wine couple of minutes ago.
So we do we do have a weekly podcast you know with Nico and where we talk about wines and about like about news about uh you know news on the on the market and in the world. So uh it's it's a weekly basis and people can follow us on on YouTube. We have a YouTube channel Panta Labs and we are as well on Spotify where they can watch and listen to us.
And of course uh we are also on on the traditional you know social network for business LinkedIn where they can they can follow Nico and I because we both have a post LinkedIn page and Pare and Pont.ai as a as as a as a LinkedIn and we are communicate on a on a weekly basis. is not daily on markets on our opinions also on Singapore myself.
I'm you know writing some post about you know things that I'm discovering uh and so do not hesitate to follow uh to like us and to comments and you can as well send us emails. So it's Bastien pont.ai or Niko.ai if you have any questions or comments. We're happy to to talk and uh and exchange ideas and point of views.
NICO: See, I wanted to say Kim, thank you for the summary, which we are very grateful of and it is kind, but I think is fair. We are exactly trying to do something different in a strange space. So, thank you for that.
So, we built Cartesio, your first digital CIO. It is a system or an intelligence or an engine that interprets and understands market conditions on a daily basis and then reshuffles an investment portfolio to fit the market conditions. The aim is to minimize drawdowns, lower volatility and deliver equity – like performance. Generating reliable consistent performance in all phases of the cycle is our end game.
There's two way to participate:
Panta which is approved and regulated in UK and Europe for retail and institutional investors and available to ome professional investors around the world is the strategy that we managed daily reshuffled by Caressio adapting to market conditions
Or we developed the CIO app which can be accessed via www.pantar.ai, where Cartisio can be monitored every day as it changes market views as markets shift and change that can be of interest to any type of investors looking at markets. Thank you for the opportunity.
KIM: Thank you Nico. I mean, so if you want to learn more about Pantar.AI, about ADPT or about how portfolios could adapt to markets instead of just holding on, you can find them on panorai.io.
And if you got something from this cnversation, if you're thinking differently about timing, about risk, about what it means to build an uncertain time at what Nico and Bastian did, or about the difference between product and platform, or about what real operational reg looks like, share it with someone.
Um, that's how good ideas spread. And this has been a conversation about adaptive wealth, strategic thinking, and why 15-year partnerships or friendships might be the best foundation for building something that lasts. So, I'm Kim. You've been listening to conversation about Panter.AI, and thank you for being here.
KIM: "That decision—to go from managing €100 billion portfolios to writing 253,000 lines of code in your home office—that's the moment. That's when you go from 'thinking about it' to 'I'm actually building this.' What made you realize you had to be the one to do it?"
[LISTEN DEEPLY]
KIM (CLOSING THIS SEGMENT): "The reason I dig into partnership is because most founders come from startup world. They're thinking 'move fast, break things.' You come from institutional rigor. Compliance. Risk management. Audit trails. The question I have is this: Does that institutional background make you more cautious, or are you actually faster because you already know what the bureaucratic traps are? How does that DNA shape how you build?"
[PAUSE FOR ANSWER]
SEGMENT 2: THE PROBLEM WITH STATIC PORTFOLIOS (5-6 min)
[TONE: INTELLECTUAL + SLIGHTLY PROVOCATIVE - FRAME THE STAKES] KIM: "Okay, let's get into what you're actually solving.
Every investor wants one thing: own the right assets at the right time. Generate reliable returns. Sleep at night. That's it. Simple.
But the industry decided about 15 years ago—right around when you were at IE Business School, actually— that this is impossible. And you know what they said instead? 'Don't try. Just buy a diversified portfolio and hold it for 10 years.'
And the market accommodated. The 60/40 became gospel. Everyone accepted it.
Except then 2020 happened. And 2021. And 2022.
2020: Pandemic crash. Stocks down. Bonds down. Together. At the same time.
2021–2022: Inflation explodes. Stocks dive 18%. Bonds dive 13%. The thing that's supposed to save you drowns with you.
The nightmare scenario nobody talks about: positive stock-bond correlation. The entire premise of diversification just stops working.
Nico, you've worked inside global markets long enough to see this play out. I want to hear not the theory, but the moment. When did you realize the 60/40 wasn't just outdated—it was a comfortable lie we'd all agreed to tell ourselves?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "Because here's the thing—the industry isn't lazy, and it's not dumb. There's a reason they say 'don't time the market.' Market timing is hard. And for 50 years, no one had the technology to actually do it systematically, at scale, for retail investors.
But you're saying you do.
Let me ask this differently: Give me one specific market moment—a day, a week, a month in your testing— where traditional advice would've lost money, and Cartesio would've protected it. Numbers. Context. What actually happened?"
[LISTEN FOR CONCRETE EXAMPLE]
KIM: "And the philosophical question underneath all this: If unpredictable markets keep shifting every single day, shouldn't your portfolio allocation shift too?
That's not crazy. That's obvious. And yet the entire wealth management industry built itself on saying it's impossible.
You're asking: what if it's not impossible? What if it just takes the right system and the right thinking?"
SEGMENT 3: INSIDE CARTESIO—THE ENGINE (7-8 min)
[TONE: TECHNICAL BUT ACCESSIBLE - EMPHASIZE THE CHOICE]
KIM: "So you built 253,000 lines of code into something called Cartesio. And here's what's interesting about this—you didn't build a neural network. You didn't build a deep learning model. You didn't follow the hype.
You deliberately chose a rule-based expert system.
And in 2024, when everyone is talking about AI agents and black boxes and 'the machine knows best,' you chose to be explainable. You chose transparency over optimization.
That's contrarian.
Why? Why not just let the neural network do its thing?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "Okay, here's my theory: you made this choice because you came from institutions. Institutions demand auditability. They want to know why a decision was made, not just that it worked. And you thought—correctly —that retail investors deserve the same respect.
But I want to push on this a little: What's the thing Cartesio can't do that a black-box neural net could do? What's the tradeoff you're making?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "So Cartesio looks at three signals. Walk me through them. And I want you to explain this like you're talking to someone who's never looked at a stock chart.
First signal: Global Macro. What's the economic regime actually doing? Is it recovery, expansion, slowdown, recession? What are US and EU growth, inflation, central bank rates doing today?
Second signal: Sentiment. Real-time investor emotions. Where is money actually flowing? When is fear spiking?
Third signal: Momentum. Are recent trends continuing or reversing? Are we at an inflection point?
These three signals—macro, sentiment, momentum—they're elegant. Simple. But are they enough? Or is this where human expertise comes in?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "Because I noticed something in your materials. You talk about 'modelled human expertise.' You say the system is capable of tracking small correlations and interactions between variables on a daily basis. That's the algorithm. But you're also programmed to focus on sudden events that have no immediate meaning until their 'temperature' changes. That's the human part.
That's the secret sauce.
Nico, you taught yourself to code during the pandemic to build this. What's one rule in Cartesio that you initially resisted adding, but now you'd never remove? What made you change your mind? Because that story— that's where I see your actual thinking process."
[LISTEN DEEPLY]
KIM: "Here's why I'm asking: Most people see the final product. I want to understand the journey. The tensions. Because that's where real insight lives.
If Cartesio is explainable, that means every trade has a reason. Every allocation shift has logic. But that also means... what happens when the market throws you something you've never seen before? What breaks?"
SEGMENT 4: PROOF, RISK & THE REAL STORY (8-9 min)
[TONE: SKEPTICAL BUT RESPECTFUL - TEST THE CONVICTION]
KIM: "Alright. Let's talk about performance.
Backtests look incredible. 430% cumulative return versus S&P 500's 340%. Half the volatility. Sharpe ratio of 3.9 versus 1.85.
On paper, this is almost too good. And I say that not to attack you, but to be honest: that's when I start asking harder questions.
You put €1.5 million of your own money into ADPT. Real capital. Not marketing. Real conviction. October 2024 to September 2025.
Walk me through that year. What was the moment where you thought, 'This is actually working'? And what was the moment where you thought, 'Oh, this could break'?"
[PAUSE – LET THEM TELL THE STORY]
KIM: "I'm asking because most fintech founders don't risk their own capital. They ask customers to beta-test. You did the opposite. That tells me something about your confidence. But it also tells me something else: you knew the failure mode. You knew it could lose 15%. And you still deployed it.
So what's the worst month you experienced in that year? What was the biggest drawdown? And how did you communicate that to yourself? 'This is volatility. This is the system working as designed. This is not a broken system'—how do you know the difference?"
[LISTEN CAREFULLY]
KIM: "Here's the trade-off I want to surface: You chose no leverage. No derivatives. Only liquid ETFs. That's clean. That's transparent. That's trustworthy.
But what upside are you giving up? What's the alpha you're leaving on the table by staying this pure?" [PAUSE]
KIM: "And here's the bigger question underneath this: Markets will throw you a regime you've never seen. You know this. A regime where your assumptions break. Total deglobalisation? Deflation? AI so powerful that traditional asset correlations become meaningless?
What's the failure mode you're most paranoid about? Not the one you think will happen—the one that keeps you up at night?"
[PAUSE – THIS IS CRUCIAL]
KIM: "Because here's what separates good founders from great founders: Great founders know their system's limits better than anyone. They're not selling invincibility. They're selling intelligence within constraints.
So where are the constraints? What can Cartesio not do? When does it break?"
[LISTEN DEEPLY]
KIM: "And finally: How do you tell a client—when ADPT is down 8% in a correction—that this is still the right choice? Because that's not a technical question. That's a psychology and communication question. How do you manage the emotional side of risk?"
SEGMENT 4.5: THE BUSINESS FUNDAMENTALS (4-5 min)
[TONE: DIRECT BUT COLLABORATIVE - THE HARD QUESTION]
KIM: "Okay, we've talked about the product, the technology, the conviction, the test. But here's what I realize I don't fully understand yet: How does Pantarai actually make money?
And I ask this not to catch you off guard, but because it's fundamental. Your answer to this changes literally everything—who you're actually selling to, how you acquire them, what happens at scale.
So let me ask directly: Is ADPT an AUM-based fee? A flat subscription? Performance-based? Walk me through the economics.
What does €1 million in AUM generate for Pantarai? And more importantly: at what average AUM per customer do you hit breakeven? Because if that number is 18 months out and customers are churning faster than that, we've got a problem."
[LISTEN FOR CLARITY ON UNIT ECONOMICS]
KIM: "Here's why I'm asking: Most fintech companies fail not because the product is bad, but because the unit economics don't work. CAC—customer acquisition cost—exceeds LTV—lifetime value. You can win new customers, but you bleed money doing it.
So I want to know: What's your estimated customer acquisition cost? Not the headline number. The real number. What does it actually cost you to acquire someone who will invest €100K with you?
And how long does it take to recover that cost through fees? If it's longer than 18 months, you're vulnerable. If it's shorter than 12 months, you've cracked something."
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Because this number—this CAC payback period—this is what determines whether Pantarai can scale from 2 people to 50 people to 500 people. Get this right, and everything else is possible. Get it wrong, and you're structurally capped.
So where do you land?"
SEGMENT 5: SINGAPORE, ASIA & THE 24-MONTH PLAYBOOK (8-9 min)
[TONE: STRATEGIC + GROUNDED - EMPHASIZE THE OPPORTUNITY + GEOGRAPHY IS STRATEGY]
KIM: "So here's where the story gets really interesting. You could've built this company in London. Madrid. Frankfurt. Any financial center in Europe. That's where your network is. That's where your capital is. That's where the regulatory framework is understood.
Instead, Bastien is based in Singapore.
And I need to be clear about something: you're not a European fintech that parachuted into Singapore with a press release and a local hire. You actually live there. Your wife runs APAC for LVMH. You're embedded in the expat ecosystem. You understand Singapore wealth culture in a way that most founders just... don't.
That changes everything.
But before we get into opportunity, let me ask the harder question: Why Singapore? Not in the CEO pitch deck way. Why Singapore? Because you could've stayed in Europe and been equally successful."
[PAUSE]
KIM: "I know the numbers. Asia-Pacific has roughly $21.7 trillion in high-net-worth assets. Singapore has 200,000+ employment pass holders who need to invest for financial freedom. It's a wealth concentration play. It's an openness-to-innovation play—MAS is predictable in a way the EU isn't.
But here's the deeper question: Geography is strategy. You're not just distributing ADPT in Singapore. You're building from Singapore. What does that actually mean? How does it change what you create?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "You mentioned something that really stood out to me: 'This opportunity came to our attention, and it was clear it could only benefit our business.' That's not FOMO. That's strategy.
But it also suggests that Singapore wasn't on the original roadmap. So here's what I want to understand: What surprised you about building from Asia that you didn't expect? What assumption you had about finance, about wealth, about how people invest—what got flipped on its head once you landed in Singapore?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "Because here's what I suspect: The way wealthy Europeans think about risk is fundamentally different from the way wealthy Asians do. Pension obligations are different. Tax regimes are different. Inflation fears are different. Currency exposure is different. So if Cartesio was built on European market dynamics, what changes for Asia? Do you retrain the model? Do you adjust the signals? Or does the core logic hold across continents?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Let's get tactical. You're focused on Singapore now. 2026 strategy: understand investor needs, develop distribution through brokers, reach that population of 200,000 employment pass holders.
But here's the question I have: Who is Customer #1? Not hypothetically. Actually. Have you already talked to them? Sat down and said, 'Here's ADPT. Here's how it works. Would you use it?'
And when you mentioned 'broker distribution,' what did they actually say? Because here's where theory meets reality. A broker is making money through commissions or spreads on trades. Why would they recommend ADPT, which is transparent and low-cost, instead of their existing robo-offering?"
[LISTEN FOR ACTUAL CUSTOMER EVIDENCE, NOT ASSUMPTIONS]
KIM: "Because the distribution channel is the product, in fintech. Get that wrong, and nothing else matters.
And here's the strategic question I have: You're starting in Singapore. But you mentioned Europe is your foundation—that's where your network is, that's where your capital is. So let me ask: What's your geographic sequence for the next 24 months? Which 3 countries do you enter after Singapore, in order? And why that sequence?
Because picking the wrong geography first could be costly."
[LISTEN]
SEGMENT 5.5: REGULATORY REALITY CHECK (5-6 min)
[TONE: RESPECTFUL BUT DIRECT - TEST FOR HIDDEN RISKS]
KIM: "Okay, we've talked about opportunity. But let me ask something that founders sometimes avoid: the regulatory reality.
You're launching in Singapore, which has smart regulators. MAS is innovation-friendly, everyone says. But you're also launching a novel use case: daily algorithmic rebalancing at scale.
So I want to get specific: Have you actually filed for a license with MAS? What type of license are you pursuing? And what's the timeline they've given you?
Because 'under discussion' is different from 'approved.' And a licensing process can take 12, 18, sometimes 24 months."
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Here's the scenario I want you to think through: It's 18 months from now. You've built the product. You've acquired 500 customers. €400M in AUM. And then MAS comes back and says: 'This is advice, not execution. You need a licensed advisor to sign off on every algorithmic decision.'
What happens to your unit economics? Can you afford to hire 5-10 advisors? Does that kill the business model? Or is there a Plan B if that happens? Because that's not a small risk."
[LISTEN FOR CONTINGENCY THINKING]
KIM: "And here's the other regulatory question: You're distributing a Luxembourg ETP into Singapore. Does MAS view that as fully compliant, or do they require a Singapore-domiciled structure? Because if they say 'you need to restructure,' that's another 6-12 months and significant cost.
Have you actually confirmed with MAS that the Luxembourg structure is acceptable? Or are you still in the 'probably' phase?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "I'm asking because I've seen regulatory surprises kill companies. Not because they did anything wrong, but because they didn't stress-test the assumptions early enough.
What's your regulatory contingency plan if MAS moves slower than expected? Or asks for something you weren't prepared for?"
SEGMENT 6: TAX IMPLICATIONS & THE REAL RETURNS (5-6 min)
[TONE: PRACTICAL + SLIGHTLY PLAYFUL - NOBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT TAXES] KIM: "Okay, let's talk about something that nobody wants to discuss but everybody should: taxes.
Your backtested returns are 430% cumulative. Your live returns beat the S&P by 2%. Those are pre-tax numbers. But daily rebalancing creates daily taxable events.
So here's my question: How does ADPT actually handle taxation?
Does the system optimize for after-tax returns? Or are you optimizing for pre-tax performance and leaving the tax burden to the customer?
Because there's a big difference. A customer with €100K could face €15K+ in annual taxes on rebalancing gains. That changes the value proposition dramatically."
[LISTEN]
KIM: "And more specifically: Does ADPT do tax-loss harvesting? In Singapore, how does daily rebalancing get taxed? Are realized gains taxable? Unrealized?
Because most robo-advisors have solutions for this. Betterment, for example, does tax-loss harvesting automatically. Do you?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Here's why this matters: When you're selling to a wealthy Singapore expat, tax efficiency might be THE reason they pick you or don't. It's not sexy, but it's real.
So if your answer is 'we don't currently optimize for tax efficiency,' that's fine—but that's a roadmap item. Because that's a conversation you'll have with every sophisticated customer."
SEGMENT 7: OPERATIONAL RESILIENCE & THE UNSEXY STUFF (5-6 min)
[TONE: RESPECTFUL + SERIOUS - TEST FOR DEPTH]
KIM: "Alright, last hard question before we move to the future: operational resilience.
You've got 253,000 lines of code. You've got daily rebalancing. You've got thousands of customers' portfolios running on Cartesio.
What happens if Cartesio crashes during market hours?
And I don't mean theoretically. I mean: What's your uptime SLA? What's your disaster recovery plan? Who executes trades if something breaks? How do you roll back a bad decision?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Because here's the thing: A technical failure could wipe out customer trust instantly. One cybersecurity incident—someone hacks Cartesio and changes allocations—and you're done.
So I want to know: What's your cybersecurity story? Who's your infrastructure partner? What's your data backup strategy?
These are boring questions. But they're the difference between a company that lasts and a company that has one bad day and closes."
[LISTEN]
KIM: "And here's the regulatory angle: MAS will ask these same questions. They'll want to see your SOC 2 compliance, your disaster recovery documentation, your incident response plan.
Are you prepared for that conversation? Or is this something you're thinking about after you get customers?" [LISTEN]
KIM: "Because I've seen smart fintech companies fail not because their product didn't work, but because they didn't think about the unglamorous stuff. Operations. Resilience. The things that don't make good podcasts but absolutely determine whether you're still here in 5 years."
SEGMENT 8: THE FUTURE & STRATEGIC VISION (6-7 min)
[TONE: EXPANSIVE BUT GROUNDED - EXPLORE WITHOUT HYPE]
KIM: "Okay, let's zoom out. You've hinted at what comes next. Multiple strategies beyond ADPT. Tokenised products. A subscription where institutional investors can access Cartesio's real-time signals. An 'operating system for investing.'
Paint the end-state for me. If everything works perfectly in 5 years, what does Pantarai look like?" [PAUSE]
KIM: "And I'm asking not because I want the dream pitch. I'm asking because you've already proven you'll execute on the hard part. So what's next? What's the second, third product?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "Let me push on the tokenisation question because that's the one everyone gets wrong. Here's what I suspect: You want to sound innovative. You want to appeal to crypto-native investors. You want overnight settlement.
But is there an actual customer asking for a tokenised ETP? Or are you imagining a customer?
Because if a wealth advisor or HNWI wanted tokenised products, Blackrock and Ethereum already offer that. So what's Pantarai's angle? Why would someone pick a 2-year-old Singapore startup's tokenised ETP over Blackrock's?"
[LISTEN FOR GENUINE CUSTOMER PULL, NOT PUSH]
KIM: "And the Cartesio subscription—when you open that up, when sophisticated investors can see the signals in real-time, what stops them from gaming it? If everyone acts on the same signal, the edge disappears. You've built something valuable, and the act of making it valuable to sell dilutes the value.
How do you solve for that?"
[PAUSE]
KIM: "Because I suspect your answer isn't 'we won't let people access it.' I suspect it's something smarter. Maybe the value isn't in the signal—it's in understanding why the signal matters. Or maybe the value is in the service, not the information."
[LISTEN]
KIM: "And here's the uncomfortable question: Is Pantarai a product company or a platform company?
Because if it's a product—ADPT is a robo-advisor competing on performance—then you're competing against Vanguard forever. Performance is cyclical. You win for 3 years, then someone else wins.
But if it's a platform—where Cartesio becomes the infrastructure that other people build on, or where each customer's data makes the system better for the next customer—then you have a structural moat.
So which is it? Is ADPT the end state, or is it the wedge into something bigger?"
[LISTEN FOR STRATEGIC CLARITY]
KIM: "And let me ask the vulnerable question: What moment made you doubt this whole thing? Not the market. Not competition. You. When did you question whether you were actually the people to execute it?
Because founders don't like talking about doubt. But doubt is where conviction comes from. You didn't doubt the idea. You doubted whether you could pull it off. How did you get through that?"
[LISTEN DEEPLY]
SEGMENT 9: RAPID-FIRE CLOSER (2-3 min)
[TONE: LIGHTER, PERSONAL, REVEALING]
KIM: "Okay, rapid-fire. Just first instinct. No perfect answers.
Wine or whiskey? And does your answer tell me something about how you think about markets?" [LISTEN]
KIM: "One belief you hold about investing that most of finance would disagree with." [LISTEN]
KIM: "If you had to bet everything on Pantarai's future in one sentence, what would it be?" [LISTEN]
KIM: "Bastien, you moved from South Africa to Europe to Singapore. You've built a career on seizing opportunities. What opportunity do you see right now that nobody else is seeing?"
[LISTEN]
KIM: "And Nico—you wrote code during a pandemic because you needed to build something. What's one line of code in Cartesio that you're most proud of? Not the smartest—the one that feels most human."
[LISTEN]
SEGMENT 10: THE CLOSING (2-3 min)
[TONE: WARM, GROUNDED, PHILOSOPHICAL - CIRCLE BACK TO THE OPENING]
KIM: "Before we go, I want to come back to something you said at the beginning. You met in 2008–2009. The worst financial crisis in a generation. You were studying how markets work, how institutions fail, how fear spreads. And for 15 years, you watched the system from the inside.
You didn't say, 'The system is broken. Let's burn it down.'
You said, 'The system is making a choice it doesn't have to make. We can give people better tools.' That's not revolutionary. It's respectful.
And I think that's why this actually matters. You're not out here claiming Cartesio is the smartest AI. You're saying it's the most trustworthy. In a world full of black boxes and hype and promises, that's genuinely radical.
What you've done—and I mean this seriously—is rare. You built something that could scale. You tested your conviction with real capital. You're thinking about regulatory reality, about operational resilience, about unit economics. Not because it's sexy, but because it's responsible.
That matters.
Nicolo, Bastien—thank you for being here. And for the bet you're making—not just on markets, but on people." [PAUSE]
KIM: "If you want to learn more about Pantarai, about ADPT, or about how your portfolio could adapt to markets instead of just holding on, you can find them at pantarai.io.
And if you got something from this conversation—if you're thinking differently about timing, about risk, about what it means to build in uncertain times, about the difference between product and platform, or about what real operational rigor looks like—share it with someone.
That's how good ideas spread.
This has been a conversation about adaptive wealth, strategic thinking, and why 15-year partnerships might be the best foundation for building something that lasts.
I'm Kim. You've been listening to a conversation about Pantarai. Thank you for being here."